Farmers are having to hack their own tractors to make repairs(thedrive.com)

279 pointsby clouddrover5 tahun yang lalu151 comments

Farmers are having to hack their own tractors to make repairs

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39158/farmers-are-having-to-hack-their-own-tractors-just-to-make-repairs

158 comments

zucked5 tahun yang lalu

Prices for pre-tech tractors have been spiking as a result, too: https://www.startribune.com/for-tech-weary-midwest-farmers-4...

missedthecue5 tahun yang lalu

Seems like a market opportunity for someone to start building simple tractors.

hoseja5 tahun yang lalu

Or this is happening precisely because the current manufacturers are confident they've managed to close all entrypoints. A "simple tractor" probably has no chance passing environmental and other regulations.

teeray5 tahun yang lalu

This has been solved in trucking by “glider kits.” It’s basically a way to ship-of-theseus your way into a “new” truck without meeting emissions, since you have an old, meticulously rebuilt engine (but still grandfathered).

nate_meurer5 tahun yang lalu

Glider engines are not meticulously rebuilt. The most prolific glider maker (Fitzgerald Glider Kits) is famous for its trashy rebuilds. Anecdotally: https://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/thre...

These rebuilt engines generate at least 20 times the pollution as emissions-certified engines:

https://eelp.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/heavy-duty-truck-glider...

thescriptkiddie5 tahun yang lalu

Emissions compliant diesel engines are available as off-the-shelf parts. It shouldn't be too hard to adapt an existing tractor design to fit a truck engine.

throwaway0a5e5 tahun yang lalu

>Seems like a market opportunity for someone to start building simple tractors.

That would create a opportunity for the EPA to shoot your dog. This isn't a market you can just enter. Manufacturing goods that have to last for decades doesn't start up and scale up like software. It would take so much time to build up a competitor that the incumbents would have more than enough notice to crush you.

spaced-out5 tahun yang lalu

The farmer in the article got what he considers a good quality used tractor for $18,000. How will you convince him to buy one from your new, untested company?

I don't know much about tractors, but I don't think you can go much lower than $18k and still make your costs back.

nielsbot5 tahun yang lalu

Or to sell repairability as a feature.

ActorNightly5 tahun yang lalu

I really wonder how big of a problem with tractors, considering there really isn't anything out there for this issue.

Looking at car world, for cars even with locked ecus, you can get things like piggyback or standalone units, transmission controllers, awd controllers, dynamic suspension controllers, and so on, because there is a huge market for it both in amateur racing and enthusiast modification, and most of these void warranty.

Seems like this would be pretty straightforward to do - in the end, all mechanical equipment follows some raw control signal that easy to intercept and modify. Legally, you can even get around most restrictions by selling programmable modules and then making the software open source.

My guess is that paying John Deer for whatever they ask is not a big deal financially to most (although probably not all) farmers.

netfl05 tahun yang lalu

"Midwest farmers face a crisis. Hundreds are dying by suicide."

"But U.S. farmers are saddled with near-record debt, declaring bankruptcy at rising rates and selling off their farms amid an uncertain future clouded by climate change and whipsawed by tariffs and bailouts."

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2020/0...

markdown5 tahun yang lalu

The worlds top selling tractor already exists, and is available in the US.

Mahindra.

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

Mustn’t a top-selling anything exist already by definition?

tkinom5 tahun yang lalu

3D print spare parts for 20-30 years tractors>

dandersh5 tahun yang lalu

Which is why I was floored when my friend told me that not only did they get less than expected for theirs, but the person bought it to scrap it.

This was in MN and using an online auction too.

meowster5 tahun yang lalu

Either your friend was selling for below scrap value, or maybe the buyer worked for John Deere.

VikingCoder5 tahun yang lalu

Sounds like the market isn't tech savvy, which is a huge shame.

motohagiography5 tahun yang lalu

Did a quick search for open source machine templates, was not disappointed: https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/gvcs-machine-index/

Even though many of these are marked as "in planning," my aspiration to have a farm now includes building it with open source machines.

NortySpock5 tahun yang lalu

Yeah, OpenSourceEcology has been around a while, but it's really just a handful of devices that are fully built and in use: the "power cube engine", "tractor" (really a skid-steer loader) and the compressed earth brick-maker are complete and have working prototypes.

https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/

Hopefully they get some more funding or someone else takes up the torch. Even then, these are generalist machines; I don't know how far they scale up.

hobofan5 tahun yang lalu

Didn't they have quite some funding for at least some time? As you said, they've been around for a long time (almost 20 years now) and for that their output isn't really that great. I'm not sure about the exact reason, but I've always had the feeling that the people working on the projects had little prior engineering experience and were progressing via slow trial and error.

I'm wondering if possibly a Youtube channel with an experienced engineer in charge and Patreon support wouldn't be a better backdrop for such a project. Something like Kliemannsland (German Youtube channel that runs their own compound) meets Stuff Made Here.

imtringued5 tahun yang lalu

Open Source Induction Furnace, Press forge, Bioplastic extruder? Really? These are extremely specific machines. A lot of them in the $100k range. Nobody is going to make an opensource design for them.

My biggest disappointment though is that their 3D printer isn't complete yet even though that's low hanging fruit. Simply modifying an existing design would have satisfied me but nope. They don't even have a 3D printer design.

yawnxyz5 tahun yang lalu

Oh, if y'all have never checked out Farm Hack (https://farmhack.org/tools) it's pretty neat. It's a community site for farmers to hack together various random tools (including tech-based tools like a Drupal-powered system for farm management) for their farm.

I don't run a farm or anything, I just think it's neat.

mr_overalls5 tahun yang lalu

At least several years ago, the cracked John Deere firmware was done by Ukrainian hackers. This seems like a serious vulnerability for supply-side attacks.

High-end tractors have been driving autonomously for years, with precise GPS, multiple cameras, Internet connections, etc. It's not unthinkable that hostile nation-state actors could hack the firmware to simply direct a 25-ton combine to leave the field and drive through the nearest population center (or high-voltage transmission line, oil storage tank, etc.)

jandrese5 tahun yang lalu

The 5kph vehicle of terror!! Very slowly menacing the population!

It's like those bad monster movies where the people just stand their screaming while guy in the heavy and clunky rubber suit slowly waddles towards them.

Hacking something like a Tesla would probably be better. At least then you can maximize the V in your E=1/2mv^2 calculation.

LinuxBender5 tahun yang lalu

I need to find you some pictures of this. It happened, but with an angry human in Vermont. Flattened a bunch of police cars. Here are some [1] but I know there were more [2][3]. Trying to find the pictures of the cops laughing. Well, those pictures are gone, but you can see most of the story.

[1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vermont-man-uses-tracto...

[2] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2182958/Police-Vt-f...

[3] - https://motleynews.net/2012/08/03/lmao-vermont-man-upset-ove...

whomst5 tahun yang lalu

There's also the Killdozer with Marvin Heemeyer but it was a bulldozer effectively turned into a tank

LinuxBender5 tahun yang lalu

I remember the videos of that. That would be a good example of high damage low risk to someone that takes control of a GPS/AI controlled bulldozer. And that was just one bulldozer. Imagine if every tractor, bulldozer, rock hauler, excavator were connected to a gaming engine and suddenly went full quake-3 arena at the same time.

Person54785 tahun yang lalu

That is absolutely hilarious.

jhawk285 tahun yang lalu

Our neighbor would chase "trespassing" police off his property with a bucket loader (tractor with a bucket).

anticensor5 tahun yang lalu

Combine harvesters can travel up to 40km/h when the harvesting mill is not operating.

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

Then they are just a slow truck. Hacking a truck would then be a more effective route.

ClumsyPilot5 tahun yang lalu

This is just a fantasy - they have to have a driver inside.

Their ripoff prices, however, are very much real

jldugger5 tahun yang lalu

> 25-ton combine to leave the field and drive through the nearest population center

Well, the good news is these things have a pretty low top speed, so I think you'd be able to dodge out of the way.

Laarlf5 tahun yang lalu

Tractors gave top speeds over 20 mph. If i was on foot, i would not call that "low"

grogenaut5 tahun yang lalu

and if they have to swerve to hit you they're going to roll. they are not stable vehicles at speed.

jldugger5 tahun yang lalu

slow enough to run to the left / right if you see it coming, since the turning radius is pretty wide.

the-dude5 tahun yang lalu

You are joking, right?

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu

tux19685 tahun yang lalu

Come on. Having a physical ignition switch that isn't controlled electronically is not a new idea.

dmitrygr5 tahun yang lalu

I love reverse engineering hardware/firmware and am reasonably successful at it. I'd love to help with this. How do I get involved? Is there a mailing list? Discord? Forum?

ahepp5 tahun yang lalu

I don't have experience in reverse engineering (ie I'm probably no use), but I would also be very interested in knowing

missedthecue5 tahun yang lalu

Rent some billboards around Dubuque, Iowa?

1-65 tahun yang lalu

From printers to coffeemakers to tractors. Companies are going to keep right-to-repair off limits to crowdsourcing hackers and mechanics. Voiding Warranties and Certifications used to be for that purpose. This is an old practice which needs to end.

evancox1005 tahun yang lalu

I feel like the solution here should be simple: more options for farmers to buy from different companies, if there aren't enough already. If Deere is being sneaky about repair/maintenance costs in the back end that can also be handled via existing laws/regulations on consumer protection, false marketing, etc.(though of course the fines are almost always never high enough). Maybe there's are some transparency regulations that could be put in to place to make it very clear the nature of the transaction people are getting in to when they buy/lease such equipment. (Like how airlines have to show the ~total price of the ticket up front.)

Disclosure: used to work in a group that made the chips that would do the locking down in applications like this.

throwaway0a5e5 tahun yang lalu

Between safety standards, emissions standards, and all sorts of other requirements that apply to heavy machinery in the US there are plenty of options for the domestic manufacturers to sneak in a little good ol' regulatory capture masquerading as something else.

nbar5 tahun yang lalu

I often wonder in some markets if there isn’t an opportunity for a Leica M6 approach.

Here is a well built analog object that should last generations.

Perhaps the analogy fails when you think about the supporting characters, film development, tractor parts, but it does seem a market luddites version of “x” exists.

m4635 tahun yang lalu

I've wondered about this. I have a friend with an old tractor, and it's a marvel of simplicity. You could literally fix most problems yourself.

At some point you do need someone else's technology tree (like an engine case).

And at that point, I think computers can simplify things.

There are all kinds of things that work better if you have a wire and a solenoid, as opposed to a mechanical linkage, or a bundle of individual wires or a vacuum line.

dreamcompiler5 tahun yang lalu

There's a joke among farmers who have long painful experience with John Deere equipment: "You can buy better but you can't pay more."

People in the Midwest whose livelihoods are tied to the Deere Corporation hate that joke.

Wistar5 tahun yang lalu

A bit of an aside: An article on Ag Web about a farmer with 7,000 acres, and who has limited his tractor fleet to only old, but re-vamped, tractors for which he has assembled his own maintenance team.

"Misfit Tractors a Money Saver for Arkansas Farmer"

"Reed estimates a modern tractor depreciates at approximately $85 per hour."

https://www.agweb.com/news/misfit-tractors-money-saver-arkan...

syntaxing5 tahun yang lalu

I always wondered about this, are there any laws preventing repairs with 3D scanner + machining your own parts/selling such parts?

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

I think the issue is more that parts without correct encoded keys are not accepted by system, and in fact purposefully cause a “lock” of the system. Kind of like when your HP printer warns you that your printer cartridge isn’t name brand, but worse.

Also, the issue of voiding your warranty by using non-certified parts and repair centers.

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu

throwawaysea5 tahun yang lalu

What are all the components of common farm equipment? Is there a list like internal combustion engines, hydraulics, steel frames, axles, etc? I’d be curious if we can match each component to an open source solution or some method of manufacturing it independently at small scale.

Pfhreak5 tahun yang lalu

It's a lot more than that. Yes, a combine or tractor has the things you mention, but they also have complex power steering, computerized control mechanisms for delivering seeds or fertilizer on a per nozzle basis based on yield patterns from previous years, GPS systems, control systems for leveling the vehicle on hills, sensors and measurement systems to control the operation of the engine and evaluate yields, complex differentials to address different stresses on the tractor as it pulls up or downhill or pulls different loads, not to mention all the complexity of threshing and separating grains inside a combine. These machines are insanely complex these days.

RickJWagner5 tahun yang lalu

I was raised in the midwest, farmers all around me.

Part of the farming life has always been resourcefully fixing stuff. (Hence the phrase "Held together with duct tape and baling wire." Baling wire refers to hay bales.)

Nothing new here.

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu

peter3035 tahun yang lalu

A growing issue with cars too.

Manufacturer liability is probably voided if you do your own software or hardware repairs.

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

It is illegal in the EU to change or remove warranty because of which shop services your car. I do my own service from time to time and warranty is still there. If there's a five year warranty it is 5 years no matter if it is serviced by Audi or Aldo's Auto. Access to diagnostic ports and tools/software is also covered. The only thing an authorized dealer can possibly give you is in case of failure after warranty has run out where they might extend it if you were a customer. Anything else is illegal and strictly enforced. Been there, won the case.

jsmith455 tahun yang lalu

Sure. In the US a warranty on any consumer product does not allow voiding or canceling a warranty due to third party parts or service, unless that same service was available at no ocst from the manufacturer.

This applies to not just normal periodic maintance/replaceable parts, but repairs after accidents, cosmetic upgrades, whatever.

So no, Apple cannot refuse to provide warranty replacement on your defective battery if you previously had the screen replaced with a third party after dropping it, since Apple does not provide free screens for negligance. Of course, if Apple can show that this replacement screen or its installation process is likely the cause of the battery not working, they can refuse to cover fixing the battery under warranty.

The problem here is that John Deere will claim that your bypassing their softwareware protections means you were running the tractor outside its design parameters, and that is why your transmission broke, not because it was defective or originally installed incorrectly by them.

To force them to reimburse you for failing to cover this under warranty you would need to convince the jury that it is more likely that the damage was from a defect or John Deere's incorrect installation than it was from side effect of you bypassing john Deere's software. Yeah, it could be rather tricky to convince them of that. Especially since you would already have had to pay for repairs, which likely means you don't have enough to pay for the lawsuit. (John Deere would need to reimburse your legal costs if you win the suit, but most of your time, aggravation and hassle is not reimbursable, and you need to be able to front the needed money in the first place).

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

You mention Audi vs Aldo’s, but does the same apply if you do the work yourself (i.e. non-professional operation)?

pabs35 tahun yang lalu

I wonder if anyone is making open source software for tractors yet?

Jkvngt5 tahun yang lalu

John Deere is an abusive company which despises its customers, and these customers reward them by gleefully buying that new million dollar harvester and doffing branded caps at every occasion. It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case. They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again. Oops maybe I shouldn’t have said that last part out loud, it might still be a secret...

falcolas5 tahun yang lalu

If you've lived in the midwest anywhere in the last, I dunno, 5 decades, you'll know that John Deere plays the long game. They advertise to people from their infancy to their adulthood. They have more brand recognition in the midwest than either Pepsi and Coke.

When you've been exposed to this kind of life-long influence, it's hard to break out of the mindset. You know John Deere Green, and they've been associated with quality and durability and they belong with you on the farm. They're all but family.

Case, or that weird orange company with the foreign name, on the other hand, are strangers who you don't know if you can trust.

Advertising, no matter how much we say to the contrary, works. And John Deere are old hands at that trade.

jasongill5 tahun yang lalu

Not that you're wrong that JD has a huge following, but over the past 5 decades they have basically gone the way of American auto manufacturers: everyone knows that their products are inferior to the "imports" (which are all made in America anyway), and they survive by brand recognition, big head start establishing a dealer network, and servicing product categories that nobody else does.

Kubota is basically the Toyota to John Deere - they are eating JD's lunch in quality and buyer/owner perception (as well as sales volume) in the "small cars" segment, and is quickly moving up-market. Kubota doesn't sell combines yet, for example, and they are still not outselling JD in anything other than compact tractors, but the people who buy those (myself included) will never go back to JD. Deere has been plagued with quality issues and where they do innovate with some flashy features at times (just like the F-150 does vs the Tundra), they seem to often cause more trouble than they can be worth.

I would say that (depending on the "trade war" of course) Kubota and the "imports" will surpass JD in total units sold some time in the next decade and then start eroding their dominance in the large tractor market in the following decade, if not sooner.

kls5 tahun yang lalu

This is true when you get to smaller tractor classes, but when you get up to the big specialized tractors like combines, Kubota and the others just really are not in the game in the US, it's dominated by a few players and they all have closed proprietary systems. Caterpillar and a few other players do this is the specialized heavy equipment game, it's pretty much the same playbook.

As well their really is no comparison, to JD's high end fleet tractors to the ones they sell to compete with New Holland or Kubota, they are different lines with different quality controls. It gets even worse when you get down to personal lawn tractors. They are basically just rebadging commodity built hardware at that level.

jet_329515 tahun yang lalu

Yes. I had a Kubota B7800 for about fifteen years. The JD competitor was made by Iseki, priced higher, and known for hydraulic system problems. The choice was easy and I never regretted it.

At the same time I bought the Kubota I worked for a company that made automatic steering systems one could retrofit to many tractors... but not JD, who were already controlling their hydraulic system access.

Never bought JD, stuck with Kubota.

nitrogen5 tahun yang lalu

but not JD, who were already controlling their hydraulic system access.

I've only ever used an ancient Farmall tractor where the hydraulic system is just a bunch of generic hoses and levers. How does JD limit hydraulic system access? Do they use proprietary fittings? Digital controls that will refuse to engage the hydraulic pump if a line is spliced?

jet_329515 tahun yang lalu

SAE J1939 specifies an optional encrypted word, and JD used that for hydraulic controls IIRC.

Kudos on keeping the Farmall. My gf at the time had a Ford 8N and I loved that thing on her land, but 2wd didn't work well at my place.

kls5 tahun yang lalu

I still have my great grandfathers Farmall Cub, it was the first tractor he and my grandfather bought for the citrus farm they homesteaded in FL, when he passed my grandfather restored it. When my grandfather sold the farm it was the only tractor he kept. My grandfather passed on in 2013 so I brought it down to my property in the FL Keys and use it as a yard tractor here. They just don't build machinery like those old tractors anymore.

mikey_p5 tahun yang lalu

It's digitally controlled, no more physical levers connected to valves.

mikey_p5 tahun yang lalu

The whole import argument doesn't really hold up very well. The only companies that really challenge John Deere at the high end of the market are Case, Claas and Fendt. The US market is still dominated by the US manufacturers due to the sheer logistics of importing these large machines, and the lack of dealer networks.

Also, you'd be kidding yourself if you think Claas or Fendt are any less reliant on proprietary software at this point.

mjevans5 tahun yang lalu

I've heard the lack of dealer networks is one of the key points against competitors. Those networks serve as a parts and systems replacements logistics multiplier. Implicit 'insurance' against crop loss is built in to that high price.

Logically some kind of insurance against opportunity loss due to equipment issues, and/or better logistics supply for parts would probably aid competition.

LeifCarrotson5 tahun yang lalu

Yes, and the imports similarly failed to challenge Ford, GM, and Dodge muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. But Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. didn't start at the high end, either.

The US market is dominated by US manufacturers due to inertia, all manufacturers are following the same formula of foreign subcomponents and domestic steel.

louky5 tahun yang lalu

My father insisted on getting a brand-new Massey Ferguson compact tractor. Way overpriced but he's got brand loyalty from many decades back.

Wouldn't even hear of a Kubota.

mycall5 tahun yang lalu

I call my Kubota 4.5kW my ole trusty. You can't kill it.

lqet5 tahun yang lalu

> They advertise to people from their infancy to their adulthood.

I grew up in Europe, my family had zero farming background, and even I remember playing with small John Deere tractor toys [0] as a kid in the 90ies.

[0] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XOD3wPXwEy0/maxresdefault.jpg

grogenaut5 tahun yang lalu

In the 90s in rural missouri everyone had those orange tractors (new). Or the red ones (older, or new combines). Or the blue ones (new). Not very many green ones except rusting in the field or as the toy old one you used for around the property work while the real one was doing real work.

m4635 tahun yang lalu

Harley Davidson. Marlboro. Jack Daniels. American Music and Films.

If you ever want to see the power of advertising go to another country and it will all be there.

onethought5 tahun yang lalu

That isn’t just advertising that’s American soft power projection (especially with music and film) - trade agreements have helped the others.

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

Being there is not always the same as success. Harley for example is seen as overpriced extremely bad quality by almost all bikers outside the US, except maybe by the few who own a Harley. Pretty much the same as Jack Daniels, except that is at least as cheap as it tastes.

vinay4275 tahun yang lalu

> Harley for example is seen as overpriced extremely bad quality by almost all bikers outside the US

This is true in the US as well, in my experience, for both HD and Jack. I think the point is that the Harley brand still holds value among a community of fans both in and outside of the US in a way that [some Japanese sport bike manufacturer] isn't differentiated against its competitors.

This also means the sport bike manufacturers that have competitors have to at least pretend to constantly improve, so there's a lower risk of stagnation which HD is now dealing with.

dbcurtis5 tahun yang lalu

The thing I have noticed is pockets of popular brands. The deciding factor being the proximity to a regional parts depot. Where I grew up, the JD parts depot is a 20 minute drive away. Any other brand.... much bigger deal (slower) to get parts. But drive 60 miles to the west, and all the tractors are red.

AdrianB15 tahun yang lalu

Same as Harley Davidson bikes, the weirdest way to transform gasoline into noise: it is all about marketing and nothing about the products.

scrooched_moose5 tahun yang lalu

The entire industry does. I work for a component supplier in the industry and the US companies are just awful.

Their two priorities are:

1) Proprietary Fit - how do they prevent their customers from buying replacement components from third parties and keep them coming back to them for maintenance

2) Look and feel - I've seen major contracts decided on which design had fake diamond plate to project "toughness", despite higher price and worse performance.

Price and performance are somewhat farther down the list and barely enter into the decisions.

The European and Japanese companies in contrast actually care about and drive performance requirements.

loonster5 tahun yang lalu

I've done work for a well known euro car maker, and they had several of the brackets interfering in CAD. This could have been avoided with a simple collision check that they should have done. After informing them of the errors, they fixed the print with a -/- tolerance and left the 3d model interfering.

All of the domestic car manufacturers took great care to ensure clearance between parts.

(I'm a Toyota fanboy but have never done work for them.)

scrooched_moose5 tahun yang lalu

I don't have any automotive experience but that largely squares with what I hear through the grapevine in the Auto industry.

In the heavy machinery industry which Deere opporates it's mostly the opposite. Kubota, Agco, Bosch etc. are miles ahead of Deere and Caterpillar; who are largely relying on past reputation at this point.

ActorNightly5 tahun yang lalu

Kinda interesting that people seem to agree here that John Deere is abusive, but Apple does the same thing with consumer electronics, and tends to have a favorable view on this subreddit.

throwaway0a5e5 tahun yang lalu

The people who would run to Deere's defense don't hang out on HN.

Tech companies named after fruit and car manufacturers (yes, plural) who's names begin with T and end with A can do little wrong around here. Sure they catch a little flak because they engage in less than ideal behavior (just like every other sociopaths BigCo engages in) but they get at least a partial pass or benefit of the doubt because they make products the HN demographics like and would at least consider owning. Comparatively nobody here sees themselves using their bonus as the down payment on a swather so the narrative devolves into a simplistic and nuance free "Kubota good, Deere bad".

dawg-5 tahun yang lalu

I think the apparent scale of the abuse by John Deere is what puts it in a different class for many people. It's the same shitty philosophy, but companies like Apple and Toyota are tolerable to most people because it's relatively subdued compared to what John Deere is doing.

If my iPhone or my Toyota breaks, I can go to any of a dozen locations in my city and get it fixed in a few days. And basic repairs don't have to be done by a professional. I can still change the oil, brakes, fuel pump, water pump, belts, etcetera on my toyota. I can fix the screen on an iphone pretty easily. From what I hear, John Deere requires official access to the on-board software for even the most mundane of repairs. Something a farmer could fix in 15 minutes turns into a months-long affair. If your Deere tractor breaks, supposedly it's almost impossible to get a tech out to your farm in a timely fashion. So your $1 million piece of equipment is broken during harvest and your crops are dying in the field.

johnbrodie5 tahun yang lalu

Tesla is pushing the same anti-right-to-repair angle and also seems to get (mostly) admiration by the "tech community" at large. As seems to always be the case, it's a lot easier to be critical when the company/group/individual isn't "on your side".

93po5 tahun yang lalu

Tesla avoids supporting third party repairs because repairing a potentially damaged self driving system or damaged batteries can have really bad outcomes. People scrutinize Tesla enough as it is without shoddy repairs making it worse

slacktide5 tahun yang lalu

A potentially damaged fuel system or potentially damaged hydraulic brake system can also have really bad outcomes, but I can buy a replacement fuel pump or brake caliper over-the-counter at O'Reilly Auto and install them with no interference from the manufacturer.

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

Thus far...

alasdair_5 tahun yang lalu

Do you know how many farming accidents involve tractors and combine harvesters etc. ?

The exact same argument could apply there.

syshum5 tahun yang lalu

You do know that is EXACT same flawed logic that Auto Manufacturers have been making for Decades... and the EXACT same aurgument that John Deere, Apple and every other Anti-Repair advocate makes

The plebs just can not be trusted to repair their own things, it is far too dangerous. If you repair you iPhone you might burn down your home, if you repair your brakes you might kill grandma, and if you repair are Tesla you might .....

Safety has never, and will never be a valid reason to prohibit independent / self repair

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

Which is luckily illegal in the EU. Tesla will be sued big time at some point as they do not play by the rules like the other manufacturers. Tesla makes VW look like pure angles.

mastazi5 tahun yang lalu

I don't know, Louis Rossmann (an independent Mac repair technician who campaigns if favour of right to repair) has become a bit of a celebrity in recent years[1], and Apple has been forced by public pressure to soften their stance with regards to independent repair shops[2].

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that when someone mentions right to repair, more people think about Apple rather than John Deere. (Especially considering that, in my experience, many city people don't even know what John Deere is, this is definitely the case outside of the US at least).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Rossmann

[2] https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/08/apple-gets-halfway-to-all...

jet_329515 tahun yang lalu

JD is widely used in French vineyards and BOA. As are Renault, Fendt, M-F, Fiat and Lamborghini.

jobigoud5 tahun yang lalu

> tends to have a favorable view on this subreddit.

"subreddit" becoming synonymous with internet forum?

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

Perhaps the shorthand of “sub” would be a better generic term, as in a community of people isolated underwater, smelling our own farts, threatened by hull breaches and whose interaction with the outside world mostly involves pings. :)

ddingus5 tahun yang lalu

At times, yes. I just translate it and move on.

LinuxBender5 tahun yang lalu

I think a differentiating factor could be history. Historically farmers have always been able to work on their equipment and this has been long factored into the cost of running a farm. Slowly they are being pushed out of that repair model and their costs are going up. Farm equipment gets a massive amount of physical abuse and it is expected they will break and the farmer can fire up that old generator welder, get out the magic mallet of repair and give 'er a few good whacks. Most of the diesel engines are even designed to be field repaired. On some of them, you can even pop the cylinder sleeves out, swap out the piston rings and you are back in business. People are still coming up with newer simpler tools to do this quickly. If you want to see some amazing ad-hoc repair jobs, watch Andrew Camarata's youtube channel. [1] He brings old rusty equipment back to life and then uses them to make money.

Apple devices have always been designed with limited end-user serviceability. You can reload the OS, change some firmware settings, but not much more. In my opinion, the majority of people buying these devices expected them to "just work". When that ceases to be the case, people go to the Genius Bar.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/AndrewCamarata/videos

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

I could really use an accessible YouTube channel about basic electronics diagnosis - how to diagnose a failed unit from power supply forward through components. I like EEVblog but it assumes a little more prior knowledge than I have.

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu

detaro5 tahun yang lalu

The limits on (user-)serviceability of Apple et al are regular discussions here.

manfredo5 tahun yang lalu

Not just Apple, but also any video-game console manufacturer.

There are justifiable reasons to limit users' ability to modify firmware. Piracy prevention is one. Also warranty. Users might run modified software that breaks the vehicle, then restore OEM software. A potential compromise might be to release keys, but cancel warranty for customers to opt to do so.

mr_toad5 tahun yang lalu

Cheats and exploits are also much more common on PCs.

sjwright5 tahun yang lalu

It is not the same. John Deere is taking predominantly mechanical devices and embedding technology for the purpose of artificially locking them down.

Apple is building devices that are inherently difficult or impossible to service without a supply chain of bespoke parts—and refusing to open their parts supply chain.

ActorNightly5 tahun yang lalu

Thats literally the same.

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

That is the exact same thing. Apple even glues stuff just to fuck with people that want to repair anything. If anything Apple is worse than John Deere (by far IMO).

sjwright5 tahun yang lalu

To imply that adhesives are chosen “just to fuck with” repairers is absurd, paranoid and trivially falsified. The use of adhesives is widespread in the industry and are necessary for effective IP-rated waterproofing of these thin devices.

Consumers wanted phones that didn’t die when accidentally dropped into the bath. Apple, Samsung, etc complied.

Devices are still repairable, you just need knowledge of techniques and replacement adhesives. But now the chances of needing a repair in the first place have greatly lowered. That seems like a consumer friendly win to me.

Daho0n5 tahun yang lalu

Just because it is used for other reasons doesn't mean it can't be used to fuck with repairers too. Apple has a long history of doing just that. I take it you are not a fan of Louis Rossmann?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w

sjwright5 tahun yang lalu

Louis Rossman is a moderately competent microelectronics repairer who found his calling as a YouTube entertainer and low-grade anti-Apple meme celebrity. He produces entertainment content where Apple features as 'the bad guy' and many people find it utterly captivating. He is barely qualified to have an opinion about why complex electronics products are made the way they are.

sunflowerfly5 tahun yang lalu

I live in the Midwest (and hate JD). Many continue to buy from them simply because they are the only company that guarantees parts years after production. They will make a 100 year old part if they get enough orders for it. Most other manufacturers have been bought and sold, often making parts hard to source.

BugsJustFindMe5 tahun yang lalu

> It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case.

What are the available options?

moistbar5 tahun yang lalu

Kubota and New Holland seem to be popular in my area, to the extent that I used to drive past a Kubota dealership on my way to some high school extracurricular or other.

mikey_p5 tahun yang lalu

Not much out there to compete with the new X series combines. Claas Lexion is pretty much the only series contender in the 6000 bu/hr range.

Jkvngt5 tahun yang lalu

Boycott the company, buy from another manufacturer, lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices. Or just sit back, bend over, pull down your pants, and take it while wearing the branded cap of the company which is abusing you?

Really it’s all about choice now isn’t it?

cmroanirgo5 tahun yang lalu

Parts availability is a massive factor. When you break down mid-task, your task is often time sensitive. You can't always risk having your tractor stuck in the middle of a paddock for weeks while you get new parts in.

So, the reality of choice is pretty much down to what your local tractor seller/repairer supports, because they'll have the supply chain setup to cope with certain brands only.

Jkvngt5 tahun yang lalu

The issue is that the tractor senses if you try to repair it yourself. There’s a trap mechanism which will punish you if you’re audacious enough to try to fix your machine.

jet_329515 tahun yang lalu

Truth. Equipment is locked to the chassis SN and exchanging it throws a flag that requires a JD signoff to clear.

igmor5 tahun yang lalu

Wait, what?

MikeUt5 tahun yang lalu

> lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices.

Isn't the right to repair movement exactly that? I don't think farmers are entirely absent from it.

tomc19855 tahun yang lalu

From what I hear the resale market on old farm equipment rivals Apple products in their ability to retain their value

throwawayboise5 tahun yang lalu

As the article alludes, they really aren't different from Tesla in this regard.

dbcurtis5 tahun yang lalu

> They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again.

Oh, please. Every planter tool bar that I have ever seen allows planter boxes/heads to be moved and clamped at fairly arbitrary space. Combine heads, not so, but, meh, change the planter to fit the combine.

zucked5 tahun yang lalu

Is there a better option? Is Case or whatever else (sorry, not up on farm implements) a better option?

randomdata5 tahun yang lalu

When I needed to fix my Case IH planter, the dealer handed me the service manual (book) and off I went.

When I needed to fix my John Deere combine, the repair tech had to decrypt the service manual on his laptop for me.

There does seem to be some different cultures around protecting information, but I was able to access what I needed in both cases, so I'm not sure it makes that much difference at the end of the day.

I haven't had much trouble with Deere not willing to work with me and my equipment. No more than any other brand, and my shed has all the major brands in it.

There is no doubt a squeeze on people who don't own John Deere equipment, but wish to have an independent career fixing John Deere farm equipment on behalf of other farmers. That isn't a problem seen by farmers directly, though.

crb0025 tahun yang lalu

It's Qt on Linux just like Tesla. Builds take 40+ minutes even with ICECREAM. Even Deere developers have a hard time fixing issues. Both Deere and Tesla need to be fully open sourced in FCC filings modulo crypto keys.

29athrowaway5 tahun yang lalu

John Deere is another MBAized company that is no longer in touch with reality, just powerpoints presentations.

adolph5 tahun yang lalu

If they doff the branded caps, they are taking them off which suggests not having an affinity with the brand.

optimalsolver5 tahun yang lalu

Not the person you're replying to, but he's using the term correctly. Doffing the cap is a sign of respect.

lovemenot5 tahun yang lalu

Usually just temporarily though. Indicating their paying respect or subservience to another. See also hat-tip.

Plestor5 tahun yang lalu

minikites5 tahun yang lalu

It astonishes me how many people still believe in unregulated markets when stories like this are on the front page of HN daily. Is there any amount of evidence that would convince people who still believe they are efficient or useful?

aksss5 tahun yang lalu

Often this is a case of the right kind of regulation vs the wrong kind of regulation, as opposed to a some-vs-none argument. Few people are absolutist but many err towards none because they don’t trust politicians to understand what regulation hurts vs helps. A lot of regulation is rationalized as to “save the children” but conveniently creates grand benefits for established players. It’s not crazy to be default skeptical with the plenitude of examples.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

1) Are farmers really unable to repair their tractors? I know the Deere has a major repair network and their PowerGuard plans - you can do relatively comprehensive coverage for 5 years or so I think with a $100 deductible.

2) Don't they sell original, reman and alternative parts? https://www.deere.com/en/parts-and-service/parts/

3) Don't they have a major dealer network - 3,000 dealers in the US alone? At least where I am there is a ridiculous number of deere dealers. Is the complaint that farmers cannot fix things themselves vs not get repaired at all?

4) Isn't a lot of this hacking around getting features you didn't pay for - license key gen stuff and getting around speed limiters etc? I'm not sure I count that as "repair" though I know it's super annoying and everyone wants to turn off stuff, turn off features.

Same thing with DPEF deletes and bypasses on diesel equip in US (also rampant) and a lot of the tuning. Plenty of folks "hack" their equip with a tune or to do a DPEF delete, then submit a warranty claim (at least in cars) when they burn something up. But major demand is not around repairs, a lot of the black market demand is around this other stuff.

5) The integrated combine stuff is not simple software, there def is a major investment in the tech stack for some "farms". I might call it ag engineering now? 3 cm accuracy season to season, active yield management (ie, monitors how settings affect yield, can map yield, tweak settings etc etc).

call_me_dana5 tahun yang lalu

For future reference, you are supposed to paste only the response, in your own words to the individual topic or question from the talking points we provide you. Not the entire set of forum talking points all at once! Please talk to your supervisor at once to re-evaluate your career goals at the company.

Sincerely,

Kathy J. Strubbins

Director, Marketing

John Deere Corporation

TaylorAlexander5 tahun yang lalu

This is great, thank you.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

Uh?

Zhenya5 tahun yang lalu

You're being called a JD shill / astroturfer

dawg-5 tahun yang lalu

You spoke against the hive mind and you're being sarcastically reprimanded for it

Timpy5 tahun yang lalu

If a piece of equipment breaks down in the field you need to be able to repair it right there and continue working. Stopping what you're doing to take it to the Apple store isn't acceptable.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

The repairs that need software changes are not (generally) the ones that are at issue here.

One big issue is that a fair number of tractor code faults are emissions control faults on these machines which are super annoying as the emissions system is sensitive especially as it ages. That may be in part a problem with overly strict emissions controls. So deleting emissions controls is popular in this space. And yes, dealers actually do help with this on tractors.

If you need to be able to hack your stuff in this way - lots online here: https://machinery-tunes.com/john-deere-dpf-egr-def-scr.html

29athrowaway5 tahun yang lalu

Farming is not a high margin activity, and often depends on subsidies to operate. That's why farmers have always done their own mainteinance whenever possible.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

Deere is moving towards a different model -> all data under your seat getting uploaded to the cloud, equip that is much more hands off (autodrive and steer, very high accuracy track following). Their machines can run $800,000. They seem to be targeting larger farms / ag engineering models -> driving very large scale efficiencies.

They see more margin in this cloud based revenue, the same way Microsoft does with its push into the cloud. Eventually it's probably going to migrate to essentially power by the hour type models that are already out in other higher end equipment. Their powerguard stuff is trending that way (all costs included for $100 deductible).

It's going to be some other company (Kubota?) that could do the open firmware / open source version. There should be some market for this, not sure how commercial it will be.

29athrowaway5 tahun yang lalu

They're also creating an opportunity for competitors to capture their former market after they finish pissing everyone off.

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu

TaylorAlexander5 tahun yang lalu

FWIW I built an RTK GPS system with two raspberry pi’s and three $75 GPS receivers and it has 3cm accuracy. Deere didn’t do anything to get that accuracy beyond integrating existing GPS technology in to their tractors.

For others that want to know more check out: http://rtkexplorer.com/

Also there’s a new device called the OpenRTK330 that looks promising.

qndreoi5 tahun yang lalu

RTK is certainly handy. Autosteer would be a neat addition.

TaylorAlexander5 tahun yang lalu

See:

https://agopengps.discourse.group/

syshum5 tahun yang lalu

John Deere really needs to buy better bot software.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

Has anyone here actually worked on a farm at all? I did briefly when younger and seem to know a fair bit more than most commenting with snarky comments. And I know almost nothing relatively.

syshum5 tahun yang lalu

It is not a matter of working on a farm or not, your post reads like something strait out of the John Deere PR Dept or from /r/hailcorporate on reddit.

random56345 tahun yang lalu

Almost every major business is moving towards pay for SERVICE / LICENSE rather than ownership.

You used to own your music. The next generation largely DOES NOT. Does HN not understand this?

You used to own your movies etc. The current netflix generation DOES NOT.

You used to buy equipment (like tractors). Now a surprising range of stuff is going to pay for power / hour etc. This includes firmware for tractors which enforces whatever emissions control regime, speed control, overload control, annoying safety things (lane departure warnings on commercial vehicles are so maddening commercial drivers have the silence button built into their muscle memory and almost all would turn them off if they could).

John Deere and EVERY other company is going this direction as fast as they can. This is not a question of PR, it is a question of current fact. This is to make money, build big tech platforms, allow for snitching on all sorts of things (elogs now let fleet operators know about tailgating by drivers in commercial trucking) etc.

One factor for me - things were opened up in the automotive world, and emissions controls on diesel trucks are a MAJOR source of the "hacking" people came up with.

Some estimates are 50%+ of trucks in places like texas are running delete's. So that is an incredible pollution impact.

It would be helpful to have some more specific examples (other than emissions bypasses / feature lockout bypasses - yes very annoying on a 800K vehicle!, etc) where farmers can't do a repair. What repair, in particular, do farmers want to do in the field, that they can't? That might help ground the convo.

raptorfactor5 tahun yang lalu

> Does HN not understand this?

I don't WANT this. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.

syshum5 tahun yang lalu

Ahh yes, the Great Reset / Post Ownership society fantasy.

I still own music, still own movies, and I also subscribe to Spotify and Netflix, it is not an either / or proposition

Further attempting to compare Tractors, Cars, and other hard goods to something like a Movie or music is well naive

Many of us understand that corporations and even governments are attempting to push people to a Post Ownership mentality, many of us also understand the EXTREME danger in doing so and are attempting to push back against this very FLAWED and DANGEROUS path corporations want to push society down.

Your positions so far are 1000% pointing out why corporations desire this, not why a consumer should.

>>where farmers can't do a repair. What repair, in particular, do farmers want to do in the field, that they can't? That might help ground the convo.

There are several parts on mordern Tractors that are firmware locked by Serial, things like Pumps, that even if you replace the physical part the electronic controls will not allow it to interface with the rest of the system with an approved dealer software to update the serial number or other control code for the new component.

very Similar to how the iPhone originally would only allow the Original camera to work on the phone and if you changed it out for one from a different phone it would not work (apple later back peddled on this) [1]

>>>One factor for me - things were opened up in the automotive world, and emissions controls on diesel trucks are a MAJOR source of the "hacking" people came up with. Some estimates are 50%+ of trucks in places like texas are running delete's. So that is an incredible pollution impact.

I see the disconnect, you are Pro Authoritarian government control over everyone's lives to micromanage everything "for the greater good". See I am libertarian so I am pretty sure we are never going to agree on well pretty much anything.

Aside from the fact that these regulations you talk about generally do not apply to non-road equipment (unless there is a state law) as the federal government only has the authority to regulate Vehicles approves for Interstate Highways (funny thing about the pesky 10th amendment and separation of powers)

Putting that aside the proper way to enforce an environmental control is not to install a Big Brother nanny box on every system to report back to Federal government every time I do a naughty thing. That is some freaking Orwellian dystopia shit right there, and I can not image anyone seriously supporting it

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnz7DjM4CE

[deleted]5 tahun yang lalu