Ask HN: It finally happened to me, how do you deal with burnout?
Hi everyone! As we all know this last year was rather stressful and due to some additional life events and pre-existing health issues it hit me a bit harder than most of my peers. I work as a data engineer and I'm rather green (4 years out of college), but I find myself struggling to focus or find the energy to work most days. I used to be so passionate about what I do and if myself 2 years ago saw the projects and responsibilities I have now, I'd squeal with glee. I know this is common in our field and I feel a bit stupid/guilty for it happening to me so soon in my career. Does anyone have any advice on overcoming this? Thank you guys in advance.
75 comments
* Take a break
* Treat sleep like it is your full time job. Aim to be in bed early enough you don’t need an alarm. THIS is the big one that will turn things around
* Eat well and exercise. This sounds trite but it’s very important. Cook meals rather than takeout. If you don’t have time for the gym, a 7 min bodyweight workout each day is easy and effective. Fit in walks
* Time. Burnout is basically breaking yourself. Doing the above and then just waiting will give your brain space to heal. But it takes a certain length of time
* Close loops. If you have stuff worrying you, handle it. Like, if the shower is leaky, get it fixed. Desk messy, clean it up. Don’t give your brain stuff to worry about
* Actively find relaxing stuff to do that actually relaxes you. Like some leisure is junk food and some refreshes you. Figure out which
* Treat sleep like it is your full time job. Aim to be in bed early enough you don’t need an alarm. THIS is the big one that will turn things around
* Eat well and exercise. This sounds trite but it’s very important. Cook meals rather than takeout. If you don’t have time for the gym, a 7 min bodyweight workout each day is easy and effective. Fit in walks
* Time. Burnout is basically breaking yourself. Doing the above and then just waiting will give your brain space to heal. But it takes a certain length of time
* Close loops. If you have stuff worrying you, handle it. Like, if the shower is leaky, get it fixed. Desk messy, clean it up. Don’t give your brain stuff to worry about
* Actively find relaxing stuff to do that actually relaxes you. Like some leisure is junk food and some refreshes you. Figure out which
> Treat sleep like it is your full time job.
Well said. More time off and/or WFH will not cure what a shitty lifestyle of going to bed late, eating badly and not exercising does to one's life.
Ironically, coming back to the office, has forced me to better choices than the ones I had when WFH. Even though I spend more time commuting and have less time to myself, I am getting more done now by sheer virtue of going to bed early, spending less on junk food cause I plan my lunches, have lost weight and have better stamina from just having to walk my ass off to and from train stations to get to work early.
More discipline will set you free. It sounds paradoxical but it does.
Well said. More time off and/or WFH will not cure what a shitty lifestyle of going to bed late, eating badly and not exercising does to one's life.
Ironically, coming back to the office, has forced me to better choices than the ones I had when WFH. Even though I spend more time commuting and have less time to myself, I am getting more done now by sheer virtue of going to bed early, spending less on junk food cause I plan my lunches, have lost weight and have better stamina from just having to walk my ass off to and from train stations to get to work early.
More discipline will set you free. It sounds paradoxical but it does.
I'd throw one more in there
* cut back or cut out recreational drugs
Having a beer or six has a pleasant way of making problems tomorrow problems. But it's a vicious circle.
* cut back or cut out recreational drugs
Having a beer or six has a pleasant way of making problems tomorrow problems. But it's a vicious circle.
This might fit with point 6, which I think is about selecting leisure activities that refresh instead of just kill time.
There's nothing quite as delicious as slowly waking up without an alarm.
I would like to suggest that if anyone here is still using a classic alarm that begins to blare at full volume as soon as it hits your wake up time, please, do yourself a favor and get a gradual alarm.
Personally, I use Sleepcycle, which allows you to select a 30 minute period you would like to be woken up. Additionally, it tracks your sleep and does it quite well. I also have 2 Hue lights that gradually turn on in the beginning of this 30 minute cycle. In the winter, I have a heater that begins warming my room up about an hour before I wake up. The combination of the light, heat, and sound slowly wakes me up and it has legit been life changing.
You don't have to do all that, but even just an alarm that gradually turns up the volume on a pleasant sound will do wonders for your mornings. Instead of jolting you awake, you will be gradually woken from your sleep.
I was camping the other week and a friend forgot to turn his phone alarm off and it was the most unpleasant morning experience I've had in years. I did not realize people still use those. Get a gradual alarm, you will thank me.
Personally, I use Sleepcycle, which allows you to select a 30 minute period you would like to be woken up. Additionally, it tracks your sleep and does it quite well. I also have 2 Hue lights that gradually turn on in the beginning of this 30 minute cycle. In the winter, I have a heater that begins warming my room up about an hour before I wake up. The combination of the light, heat, and sound slowly wakes me up and it has legit been life changing.
You don't have to do all that, but even just an alarm that gradually turns up the volume on a pleasant sound will do wonders for your mornings. Instead of jolting you awake, you will be gradually woken from your sleep.
I was camping the other week and a friend forgot to turn his phone alarm off and it was the most unpleasant morning experience I've had in years. I did not realize people still use those. Get a gradual alarm, you will thank me.
+100 to this comment.
For iPhone users this gradual alarm can be setup natively with the Clock/Alarm app. I now use it instead of Sleepcycle.
For iPhone users this gradual alarm can be setup natively with the Clock/Alarm app. I now use it instead of Sleepcycle.
I use the radio (BBC R4). I occasionally recollect 'a really interesting conversation I had'.. before realising it was 'with' Melvyn Bragg on In Our Time.
Sundays can be, er, alarming though! (Hint: at least, for someone not often awake in time to physically attend an early mass.)
Sundays can be, er, alarming though! (Hint: at least, for someone not often awake in time to physically attend an early mass.)
Actually the best thing I did for this was get a Eight Sleep mattress and enable their vibration alarm.
Nice, I believe I friend of mine uses the heating feature of that mattress to wake up.
You sleep-ate your alarm clock?
I actually always use an alarm even though I can wake up even at 10 in the morning if wanted. Not using an alarm is ideal if you sleep well at night. But if you don't, then setting up an alarm ensures you wake up at the same time every day. For me it also means that when I don't sleep well at night, I don't compensate for it in the morning by sleeping in. This one is important to maintain my routine and making sure I will be tired the next day at my bed time. The alarm wakes me up every day at 6:30am and I never continue sleeping after that (I go to bed at 11pm so 6:30 works for me).
That’s fair! I recommend no alarm for people at the start because the average person’s sleep problem is they don’t sleep enough.
But as someone with trouble maintaining a steady sleep cycle, I totally support purposefully using an alarm like that as long as you have the bedtime sorted too. And once you know what full sleep feels like.
(Bedtime and a bed routine turned out to be the key for me and now my sleep cycle is regular enough)
But as someone with trouble maintaining a steady sleep cycle, I totally support purposefully using an alarm like that as long as you have the bedtime sorted too. And once you know what full sleep feels like.
(Bedtime and a bed routine turned out to be the key for me and now my sleep cycle is regular enough)
I think these things are important to have as tools in your life, regardless! Life can get overwhelming in all kinds of different ways; knowing how to put your head down and take care of yourself in these ways is incredibly valuable.
Unfortunately, after a while doing all the above and more, I realized my feelings towards my coworkers and company had nothing to do with burnout. Sometimes you realize everyone is miserably bad at their jobs and you don't want to keep dealing with an increasingly shitty work environment.
Another valuable thing is putting yourself in the position to be able to leave.
Unfortunately, after a while doing all the above and more, I realized my feelings towards my coworkers and company had nothing to do with burnout. Sometimes you realize everyone is miserably bad at their jobs and you don't want to keep dealing with an increasingly shitty work environment.
Another valuable thing is putting yourself in the position to be able to leave.
This ^
Also think about what about your career/work that you enjoy. You could change something up, a change is as good as a holiday as they say - try a new company, an adjacent role, hell if you don’t like your responsibilities could you step down a rung on the ladder? (I’ve done that)
Also think about what about your career/work that you enjoy. You could change something up, a change is as good as a holiday as they say - try a new company, an adjacent role, hell if you don’t like your responsibilities could you step down a rung on the ladder? (I’ve done that)
Great comment. Reiterate the last point - watching netflix shows or reading Blind or spending time with social climbers - that stuff looks like leisure but doesn't really recharge you (atleast in my experience). Find out what works for you and what doesn't!
Thank you for this. I am definitely going to try these bullets. My sleep has been pretty poor as well as other habits having been trapped in my apartment for 1.5 years (my city/state locked down especially hard).
Do they keep you from walks too? I found that extra hard, though only had brief periods fortunately.
I forgot to mention a few things:
* I found this app absurdly effective. Only used it like 3 times but it had a big impact: https://wuju.app/
* Square breathing helps. Inhale four seconds, hold four seconds, exhale four seconds, hold four seconds, repeat. Can do it as two second instead of four as well. Especially helpful if you feel stress.
* Pay attention for stress signs and process them. When I had some burnout it was like my stress response was oversensitive. So noticing I felt stress and either processing it (e..g someone cuts you off, you feel tension —> “They merely walked in front of me, relax, that is not a threat”) or using the breathing technique can help retrain your stress response.
Good luck! It does get better, just takes time and good habits.
Also random thing that helped once: consciously blowing off everything non essential and diving deep into Hades for a couple weeks. I think it was being totally focussed on a thing, and having a sense of progress, that helped.
Would not recommend as first step. Take care of small irritants and get good habits first. But then just totally letting go to some fun hobby can be an important part of the cure. For me it was Hades. For others it could be woodworking or pottery, whatever tends to immerse you.
I forgot to mention a few things:
* I found this app absurdly effective. Only used it like 3 times but it had a big impact: https://wuju.app/
* Square breathing helps. Inhale four seconds, hold four seconds, exhale four seconds, hold four seconds, repeat. Can do it as two second instead of four as well. Especially helpful if you feel stress.
* Pay attention for stress signs and process them. When I had some burnout it was like my stress response was oversensitive. So noticing I felt stress and either processing it (e..g someone cuts you off, you feel tension —> “They merely walked in front of me, relax, that is not a threat”) or using the breathing technique can help retrain your stress response.
Good luck! It does get better, just takes time and good habits.
Also random thing that helped once: consciously blowing off everything non essential and diving deep into Hades for a couple weeks. I think it was being totally focussed on a thing, and having a sense of progress, that helped.
Would not recommend as first step. Take care of small irritants and get good habits first. But then just totally letting go to some fun hobby can be an important part of the cure. For me it was Hades. For others it could be woodworking or pottery, whatever tends to immerse you.
Also realize it'll take months to recover, not just a few weekends. Me personally I left my job 8 months ago and just starting to feel better but have more to go, but I was at an extreme case of burnout.
I had to do something completely different. I drove a city bus for a year. It was a very rewarding experience because I learned about the struggles people have and how to be good to them no matter how annoying they were. Coding was fun again when I started back up.
That is really cool! I'm excited because I did similar and figured it was unusual. Would be very curious to hear more.
Myself after burning out from software, I spent a while working for Door dash and Uber, as well as a brief stint driving an NYC yellow taxi. Being able earn money without having to use and squeze allthe jucie out of my conscious mind so much all the time really helped.
It was also really interesting (I eventually got to have fun making spreadsheets to computer optimal strategies and stuff-- quite a lot of strategy involved in doing gig driving jobs really, your wage can be very different depending on your choices and insight into the local market)..... and honestly kind of chastening and disturbing, being on the "other side" of an app. When you work a gig app job, the app is your boss, and he's a shitty boss. A bug is just another jira ticket to a Dev but to an Uber driver a bug can mean losing significant revenue with no recourse and no human to persuade of anything. Such as an order just getting stuck and the app won't let you finish it or take another one and there's a long line for support. So now your shift is involuntarily over and, if it's the busiest part of day or week, you won't get that chance again for a few days. Permanently lost revenue.
Anyway, for a burntout software engineer I can't recommend this staretgy more. Just get a random job that does not involve staring at a computer and does not require a lot of education.
Boredom is the mother of inspiration.
Myself after burning out from software, I spent a while working for Door dash and Uber, as well as a brief stint driving an NYC yellow taxi. Being able earn money without having to use and squeze allthe jucie out of my conscious mind so much all the time really helped.
It was also really interesting (I eventually got to have fun making spreadsheets to computer optimal strategies and stuff-- quite a lot of strategy involved in doing gig driving jobs really, your wage can be very different depending on your choices and insight into the local market)..... and honestly kind of chastening and disturbing, being on the "other side" of an app. When you work a gig app job, the app is your boss, and he's a shitty boss. A bug is just another jira ticket to a Dev but to an Uber driver a bug can mean losing significant revenue with no recourse and no human to persuade of anything. Such as an order just getting stuck and the app won't let you finish it or take another one and there's a long line for support. So now your shift is involuntarily over and, if it's the busiest part of day or week, you won't get that chance again for a few days. Permanently lost revenue.
Anyway, for a burntout software engineer I can't recommend this staretgy more. Just get a random job that does not involve staring at a computer and does not require a lot of education.
Boredom is the mother of inspiration.
> Being able earn money without having to use and squeeze all the juice out of my conscious mind
That's what I found too. I could think about whatever I wanted while driving a bus. My mind became my own and not rented out to the highest bidder.
That's what I found too. I could think about whatever I wanted while driving a bus. My mind became my own and not rented out to the highest bidder.
Nice, that's really cool. Certainly puts things into perspective.
Getting cancer helped me. Though I wouldn't recommend it. As everyone has been saying focus on Sleep, Exercise, and Nutrition. In that order. Take time off, but most of all, realize that it doesn't matter. If you show up for your standup only doing 1/8th of what you were supposed to, and your scrum master is annoyed, it doesn't matter. Even if you end up getting fired, no one is going to remember in 1000 years, give yourself a break. If you're any good, finding a new job is easy, fixing your health is not.
"I find myself struggling to focus or find the energy to work most days"
Take a good, hard look at your nutrition. Nutritional deficiencies or imbalances can cause all sorts of severe issues, including mental issues such as loss of focus and energy (and worse).
Regular exercise can help with energy, as can getting enough sleep. Make sure you're doing this.
Take a break and do something actually relaxing for a while.
Fortunately, it doesn't sound like you have really severe burnout (where you're severely depressed and absolutely hate and loathe what you do, and never want to do it again)... in which case I'd recommend switching careers, and the sooner the better. In your case it sounds like more like a mild case, where you have a good chance of getting back to work if you take care of yourself.
Still, I'd ask myself: is this really what I want to do in the long run? If not, you might want to start exploring other options... and the sooner the better. It's much harder to switch careers when you get older.
Seeing a therapist might be a good idea too... a real therapist, not one that reflexively fills your mouth with pills.
Take a good, hard look at your nutrition. Nutritional deficiencies or imbalances can cause all sorts of severe issues, including mental issues such as loss of focus and energy (and worse).
Regular exercise can help with energy, as can getting enough sleep. Make sure you're doing this.
Take a break and do something actually relaxing for a while.
Fortunately, it doesn't sound like you have really severe burnout (where you're severely depressed and absolutely hate and loathe what you do, and never want to do it again)... in which case I'd recommend switching careers, and the sooner the better. In your case it sounds like more like a mild case, where you have a good chance of getting back to work if you take care of yourself.
Still, I'd ask myself: is this really what I want to do in the long run? If not, you might want to start exploring other options... and the sooner the better. It's much harder to switch careers when you get older.
Seeing a therapist might be a good idea too... a real therapist, not one that reflexively fills your mouth with pills.
This. I’m dealing with all the consequences of ignoring health and burnout for years. I always had an excuse about some deadline or other.
I’m serious about it now, but it’s a brutal road back.
Health first, diet and exercise. Cut the sugar. Physical hobbies are a must.
Work after those are being handled.
Consider it an reinvestment, drop in productivity for a few weeks as your body gets used to it. Huge payouts later on.
Don’t feel guilt for paying technical debt. Same for health debt.
Health first, diet and exercise. Cut the sugar. Physical hobbies are a must.
Work after those are being handled.
Consider it an reinvestment, drop in productivity for a few weeks as your body gets used to it. Huge payouts later on.
Don’t feel guilt for paying technical debt. Same for health debt.
I'm in a similar boat, I've been working for 10 years and I was burnt out before the pandemic, but the last year has been brutal.
People in the replies are saying "get a hobby", which isn't a bad idea if you find yourself over-working. Personally, my burnout is more like inability to initiate tasks and focus during the workday. I can go cycling or play video games no problem, any time, but work specifically is a huge barrier.
The only solution I've seen work is to take an extended break, and identify what about your work is burning you out. Do you need more autonomy? Do you need more guidance? Purpose? Connection with your coworkers? Personally, I realized I wouldn't ever use our product (it's very complicated for little benefit compared to the competition) and it has mountains of tech debt nobody cares about cleaning up, which has really killed my motivation. So I'm going to quit soon and take a few months to deliberately search for a company doing something that seems valuable/important.
People in the replies are saying "get a hobby", which isn't a bad idea if you find yourself over-working. Personally, my burnout is more like inability to initiate tasks and focus during the workday. I can go cycling or play video games no problem, any time, but work specifically is a huge barrier.
The only solution I've seen work is to take an extended break, and identify what about your work is burning you out. Do you need more autonomy? Do you need more guidance? Purpose? Connection with your coworkers? Personally, I realized I wouldn't ever use our product (it's very complicated for little benefit compared to the competition) and it has mountains of tech debt nobody cares about cleaning up, which has really killed my motivation. So I'm going to quit soon and take a few months to deliberately search for a company doing something that seems valuable/important.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this as well, but at least in a twisted way that validates us both. What you described as your burnout is the same as mine. I definitely am dying for some purpose and I haven't had much interaction with my coworkers lately other than when something breaks. I've been pushing for other work and better pay so we'll see where that leads.
Good luck! FWIW in the past I've been happiest working on a project with a small team that has some clear product goals - maybe your current company can provide something like that?
Re: compensation, I think it's important to realize whether or not more money will make you happy. If you feel undervalued it might, but you might be chasing two rabbits trying to switch projects and get a raise simultaneously.
Personally I've made way above-market for the past 5 years, bought a house, and the only benefit is now I have a safety cushion so I can take time off to recover. I would have traded comp for a more fulfilling job, in retrospect.
Re: compensation, I think it's important to realize whether or not more money will make you happy. If you feel undervalued it might, but you might be chasing two rabbits trying to switch projects and get a raise simultaneously.
Personally I've made way above-market for the past 5 years, bought a house, and the only benefit is now I have a safety cushion so I can take time off to recover. I would have traded comp for a more fulfilling job, in retrospect.
I experience multiple bouts of burnout where I said I would never code again, in fact my head hurt just looking at code. Presently, I'm writing code and launching a company.
In hindsight, for me burning out wasn't really about being tired or having carpal tunnel, it was an emotional exhaustion that was due to a complete misalignment between expectation and reality. Specifically, I was very disillusionment with what I was working on. If you're 4 years out of college, this is right around the time where many people become disillusioned. Your friends may be in the same boat, you can tell if you're seeing IG photos of your friends backpacking in Asia, launching some social impact startup, or taking a sudden interest in "authentic" activities such as baking bread. The point is, many people are experiencing the same thing.
What helped me was taking some time off from coding completely, and finding a more interest project to work on. Eventually you have to realize all stories about what tech or life could be are just that: fairy tales. You have to define your own whys and work from that. On a daily basis, what helped was to have another goal that I pursued with just as much focus, for me it is running. But the balance really helps. Meeting friends from different industry also helps, they make you see that your struggles are common, and what you're worried about is probably not worth it. Also, this might be the last time in your life where you can meet and form "real relationships" before the chill of adulthood really sets in, so treasure it.
In hindsight, for me burning out wasn't really about being tired or having carpal tunnel, it was an emotional exhaustion that was due to a complete misalignment between expectation and reality. Specifically, I was very disillusionment with what I was working on. If you're 4 years out of college, this is right around the time where many people become disillusioned. Your friends may be in the same boat, you can tell if you're seeing IG photos of your friends backpacking in Asia, launching some social impact startup, or taking a sudden interest in "authentic" activities such as baking bread. The point is, many people are experiencing the same thing.
What helped me was taking some time off from coding completely, and finding a more interest project to work on. Eventually you have to realize all stories about what tech or life could be are just that: fairy tales. You have to define your own whys and work from that. On a daily basis, what helped was to have another goal that I pursued with just as much focus, for me it is running. But the balance really helps. Meeting friends from different industry also helps, they make you see that your struggles are common, and what you're worried about is probably not worth it. Also, this might be the last time in your life where you can meet and form "real relationships" before the chill of adulthood really sets in, so treasure it.
Everything gets boring after the initial rush of learning a new skill.
Everything.
I'm certain that even astronauts are "over it" by the 3rd or 4th time they go to space. The key is seeking out orthogonal fields. Luckily with programming, there are so many of those that you're only limited by the human lifespan. Tired of crunching ML data? Try game programming. It's almost a completely different discipline, while still building on the things you know.
Everything.
I'm certain that even astronauts are "over it" by the 3rd or 4th time they go to space. The key is seeking out orthogonal fields. Luckily with programming, there are so many of those that you're only limited by the human lifespan. Tired of crunching ML data? Try game programming. It's almost a completely different discipline, while still building on the things you know.
Burnout and boredom are dramatically different concepts. A young person is here asking for advice on burnout and you can't even give advice within the same zip code. That's really upsetting.
>Burnout and boredom are dramatically different concepts.
Are they though? I really can't imagine "burning out" on something I didn't find boring. And vice versa.
The rest of the advice seems to boil down to "take a break, then go back to the thing you were bored with". Not a great plan in my opinion. If you don't switch things up, you'll inevitably end up in the same place. Growth is the only option.
Are they though? I really can't imagine "burning out" on something I didn't find boring. And vice versa.
The rest of the advice seems to boil down to "take a break, then go back to the thing you were bored with". Not a great plan in my opinion. If you don't switch things up, you'll inevitably end up in the same place. Growth is the only option.
For your sake, I'm going to pray that you never experience a profoundly deep burnout in connection to a task you love. I'm old, I've suffered and I've watched others suffer in profound ways. Stay safe and healthy friend - I'm going to be really really sad if I ever hear that you're going through a burnout. :(
There's great advice already in this thread so I won't repeat it all. I'll just say that I've been really struggling with burn out lately too. The worst part about it is the things you don't get done because of burn out still need to get done, and it can become a positive feedback loop of doom.
Above all DO NOT FEEL BAD. One of my good friends is a public figure who is known for being unbelievably productive, and he recently burned out and had to recharge too. Burn out is nothing to be ashamed of.
I spent a week going to the mountains and not looking at my computer for anything, and it helped me a ton. I'll be back burned out soon though if I don't change something. I need less work/burden so I have to cut something. It won't be easy to decide however.
Above all DO NOT FEEL BAD. One of my good friends is a public figure who is known for being unbelievably productive, and he recently burned out and had to recharge too. Burn out is nothing to be ashamed of.
I spent a week going to the mountains and not looking at my computer for anything, and it helped me a ton. I'll be back burned out soon though if I don't change something. I need less work/burden so I have to cut something. It won't be easy to decide however.
A lot of replies here, like in most conversations about burnout, are offering advice about what you can specifically do.
A more important question, I think, is to ask why you build a life where you worked so much that you burned yourself out. Burnout just means you depleted the stock of energy you have, and you did it persistently over time to the point where all the neat tricks you can use for motivation no longer work.
And you did that, like we all do, for good reasons. It'll probably rhyme with all the reasons we get given socially – like how work is perceived as good, and you want to advance in your career. But there are also deeply personal reasons that you learned that make burnout a consequence you accept, even as you watch yourself deplete yourself.
If you ask yourself where and how you learned to work so hard that you deplete yourself, then you can actually give yourself good answers about how to overcome burnout. Burnout, again, is just the end state of a life you learned you had to live. Fixing burnout means listening to what compels you to do that, so that you can stop doing it. And maybe more importantly, you'll also have to notice what on earth you would do other than following the path that leads you to burnout.
It's those two things together that help stop burnout: stopping the things that burn you out, and finding out what actually gives you energy and makes your life fuller and more vibrant, alive. You don't have to just spend the rest of your life managing the former, where you may not end up in acute burnout but where you're still constantly managing an always shrinking reserve of energy in the service of things that always shrink it. You have to dream a little bigger, and ask: who am I, and what do I need that makes me and my life fuller?
As others have pointed out, a good therapist is a great person to help you navigate this. Burnout is pernicious. It's a self-harming thing that you learned to do because it gave you good things, so you build up all sorts of protections that prevent you from noticing it's bad for you. A therapist is a person who helps you get to a more honest view of what is going on in that dynamic, and where it is rooted in you.
A more important question, I think, is to ask why you build a life where you worked so much that you burned yourself out. Burnout just means you depleted the stock of energy you have, and you did it persistently over time to the point where all the neat tricks you can use for motivation no longer work.
And you did that, like we all do, for good reasons. It'll probably rhyme with all the reasons we get given socially – like how work is perceived as good, and you want to advance in your career. But there are also deeply personal reasons that you learned that make burnout a consequence you accept, even as you watch yourself deplete yourself.
If you ask yourself where and how you learned to work so hard that you deplete yourself, then you can actually give yourself good answers about how to overcome burnout. Burnout, again, is just the end state of a life you learned you had to live. Fixing burnout means listening to what compels you to do that, so that you can stop doing it. And maybe more importantly, you'll also have to notice what on earth you would do other than following the path that leads you to burnout.
It's those two things together that help stop burnout: stopping the things that burn you out, and finding out what actually gives you energy and makes your life fuller and more vibrant, alive. You don't have to just spend the rest of your life managing the former, where you may not end up in acute burnout but where you're still constantly managing an always shrinking reserve of energy in the service of things that always shrink it. You have to dream a little bigger, and ask: who am I, and what do I need that makes me and my life fuller?
As others have pointed out, a good therapist is a great person to help you navigate this. Burnout is pernicious. It's a self-harming thing that you learned to do because it gave you good things, so you build up all sorts of protections that prevent you from noticing it's bad for you. A therapist is a person who helps you get to a more honest view of what is going on in that dynamic, and where it is rooted in you.
Make sure you get a full medical work up. I “burnt out”. Fought it for years, finally was in the doc office for something unrelated (was diagnosed with t2diabeetus, and was consulting with the clinical pharmacist).
“Your bp is up, and you have low potassium, let’s check your hormone levels. Turned out I had high levels of a stress hormone which caused the high bp. CT scan, oh look you have a tumor on an adrenal gland. Kick off 1.5 years of blood tests, procedures, etc. I even died once.
So in addition to being flooded with stress hormones, they whacked my T levels.
Upshot is, now I’m fine, not burnt out. All good.
Don’t ignore potential areas that can cause you problems.
“Your bp is up, and you have low potassium, let’s check your hormone levels. Turned out I had high levels of a stress hormone which caused the high bp. CT scan, oh look you have a tumor on an adrenal gland. Kick off 1.5 years of blood tests, procedures, etc. I even died once.
So in addition to being flooded with stress hormones, they whacked my T levels.
Upshot is, now I’m fine, not burnt out. All good.
Don’t ignore potential areas that can cause you problems.
The effect of hobbies is that they teach you how to manage your time effectively and with discipline.
They aren't breaks or indulgences, they are the things you actively choose to do and to structure your time around, and the effect of being someone who can do that is what makes you successful in a work situation. Suffering is stupid. (I have spent a lot of time being stupid, and have burned out more than once.)
There is zero value to anyone if you burn out. Your real job is not to just "work," it is to manage your time in such a way that you provide value and can even commit with a high degree of certainty to providing future value.
Radically, I would go so far as to say that a person who does not have hobbies or other outside interests to structure their time around is someone who does not manage their time well enough to be trusted with anything more than occasional odd jobs and transaction based tasks.
Take some scheduled music lessons, do an online course, get a dog, or get a personal trainer or something that is a scheduled time commitment, and use that discipline to manage your work instead of just doing it all the time with more effort and expecting a different result.
They aren't breaks or indulgences, they are the things you actively choose to do and to structure your time around, and the effect of being someone who can do that is what makes you successful in a work situation. Suffering is stupid. (I have spent a lot of time being stupid, and have burned out more than once.)
There is zero value to anyone if you burn out. Your real job is not to just "work," it is to manage your time in such a way that you provide value and can even commit with a high degree of certainty to providing future value.
Radically, I would go so far as to say that a person who does not have hobbies or other outside interests to structure their time around is someone who does not manage their time well enough to be trusted with anything more than occasional odd jobs and transaction based tasks.
Take some scheduled music lessons, do an online course, get a dog, or get a personal trainer or something that is a scheduled time commitment, and use that discipline to manage your work instead of just doing it all the time with more effort and expecting a different result.
If you have the savings, quit. Take 1-2 weeks and don't look for work, just enjoy the lack of responsibility. Then, when you start waking up feeling curious about tech/data/whatever, start to poke around your network and see who's hiring. Update your LI to looking for work. While you're not interviewing play around with tech you thought was interesting but didn't touch. Just kinda hang out and enjoy yourself until you get hired somewhere else.
If you don't have the savings, just start doing a worse job. Prioritize starting on time and leaving on time over everything else. Lean into using personal days whenever you feel like it. Push hard to get out of meetings that aren't valuable to you or add to your stress. Start putting money away so you can quit when you're ready. Start looking for a "life raft" job - something that isn't offensive and low stakes, just to get you out of your current gig. Doesn't have to pay well or really be interesting. Just get you out to a fresh start.
If you don't have the savings, just start doing a worse job. Prioritize starting on time and leaving on time over everything else. Lean into using personal days whenever you feel like it. Push hard to get out of meetings that aren't valuable to you or add to your stress. Start putting money away so you can quit when you're ready. Start looking for a "life raft" job - something that isn't offensive and low stakes, just to get you out of your current gig. Doesn't have to pay well or really be interesting. Just get you out to a fresh start.
Enforced boredom. Like, seriously, the three phases of a burnout recovery vacation are “I’m trying to relax”, “I am so incredibly bored”, and “I’m resting”, in that order. The trick is not to try and override the boredom through complex intense activities. Same deal with healing an injury: once it stops hurting, you have to take more care to let it heal, not less.
Building a life outside of engineering and your company is really critical. Once engineering is just a small component of your life you can learn to not overextend yourself for the cause of your engineering projects.
Find other activities that spark passion and intellectual curiosity; I could spend much of my intellectual energy just thinking about designing my gardening plots and be satisfied.
Learning to keep emotional distance from my day-to-day profession was one of the best things I did. I log on, mostly enjoy what I do, collect my paycheck, and use it for the things and people I love.
Find other activities that spark passion and intellectual curiosity; I could spend much of my intellectual energy just thinking about designing my gardening plots and be satisfied.
Learning to keep emotional distance from my day-to-day profession was one of the best things I did. I log on, mostly enjoy what I do, collect my paycheck, and use it for the things and people I love.
Hey friend, seriously, don't feel stupid. You're the exact opposite of stupid - you've recognized that something isn't right, you're intelligent enough to know you have power over it and you're brave enough to ask Hacker News. If anything, be incredibly proud of yourself right now - this is huge. You're doing something absolutely huge and wickedly inspiring.
Running and fitness are a huge part of my life and have helped me overcome all sorts of bullshit. I went through a really nasty health scare and if it hadn't been for running (it was technically waddling at the time) I would have either died or killed myself. Running fixed my problems in three ways - I started sleeping, eating and living better.
Running has also given a sense of where I bonk and when I need to take a break. I've sometimes been guilty of working myself too hard when I need a break. The 'joy' of running is that whenever I do that, I need a physical therapist. Over the last few years, this has turned into an 'I don't care' attitude about things related to my health. I'm tired but need to get something done? Who cares? I'm bonking. I'm tired at 75 miles and don't want to do the last 25? Fuck it, who cares??? I just ran 75 miles....
Otherwise, believe in yourself and love the hell out of yourself. I'm in my mid 40s and seriously bud, I'm beaming with pride. You are the realest of the real deals. You have got this. Reach out if you need friend or running partner.
Running and fitness are a huge part of my life and have helped me overcome all sorts of bullshit. I went through a really nasty health scare and if it hadn't been for running (it was technically waddling at the time) I would have either died or killed myself. Running fixed my problems in three ways - I started sleeping, eating and living better.
Running has also given a sense of where I bonk and when I need to take a break. I've sometimes been guilty of working myself too hard when I need a break. The 'joy' of running is that whenever I do that, I need a physical therapist. Over the last few years, this has turned into an 'I don't care' attitude about things related to my health. I'm tired but need to get something done? Who cares? I'm bonking. I'm tired at 75 miles and don't want to do the last 25? Fuck it, who cares??? I just ran 75 miles....
Otherwise, believe in yourself and love the hell out of yourself. I'm in my mid 40s and seriously bud, I'm beaming with pride. You are the realest of the real deals. You have got this. Reach out if you need friend or running partner.
In 2017 - 2018 I’ve been dealing with a major burnout. At first I ignored the symptoms and just kept on pushing, which worsened it eventually to a point, where I thought I would never come back from. So please consider some of my advice.
Listen. To. Your. Body. If you are financially stable enough, take an immediate break, go on vacation, focus on your relationships, friends and other hobbies you have neglected in favour for your job.
If you are not financially enough, talk to your employer, explain yourself and negotiate a reasonable solution.
Once you have distanced yourself from your profession, try out other things as well, it might show you that you have a different calling, or you’ll re-discover the appreciation for your old profession.
> I know this is common in our field and I feel a bit stupid/guilty for it happening to me so soon in my career.
Lastly, do not feel ashamed and guilty, everyone has their limits, discovering them before it’s to late is actually a strength! Talk to a therapist, to get some emotional support and possibly learn ways to deal with future ones - once you had one, you are more prone to it.
Listen. To. Your. Body. If you are financially stable enough, take an immediate break, go on vacation, focus on your relationships, friends and other hobbies you have neglected in favour for your job.
If you are not financially enough, talk to your employer, explain yourself and negotiate a reasonable solution.
Once you have distanced yourself from your profession, try out other things as well, it might show you that you have a different calling, or you’ll re-discover the appreciation for your old profession.
> I know this is common in our field and I feel a bit stupid/guilty for it happening to me so soon in my career.
Lastly, do not feel ashamed and guilty, everyone has their limits, discovering them before it’s to late is actually a strength! Talk to a therapist, to get some emotional support and possibly learn ways to deal with future ones - once you had one, you are more prone to it.
I think there are essentially 2 approaches.
First, maybe it's not really burnout. Try taking a bit of vacation, hanging with friends, clocking a little less than 40 hours a week, sleeping eating and exercising better, or learning some new hobby. If that all does nothing, then you may have real burnout, which needs a more extreme solution.
1. Step back and unplug from the professional world for 6+ months. Do something totally new and orthogonal. Wait until you get thrilled at the prospect of joining a new team and only then get back into it.
2. Take a motivational inventory and see if there's anything with the power to continue to drive you in your current situation. You may want to talk to a therapist to work on some of this life goal stuff. I'd personally recommend someone who practices positive psychology or Logotherapy. If you find something in your current situation that has the spark, lean into it for all it's worth.
I've been there and back again a few times. It gets better if you work on it.
First, maybe it's not really burnout. Try taking a bit of vacation, hanging with friends, clocking a little less than 40 hours a week, sleeping eating and exercising better, or learning some new hobby. If that all does nothing, then you may have real burnout, which needs a more extreme solution.
1. Step back and unplug from the professional world for 6+ months. Do something totally new and orthogonal. Wait until you get thrilled at the prospect of joining a new team and only then get back into it.
2. Take a motivational inventory and see if there's anything with the power to continue to drive you in your current situation. You may want to talk to a therapist to work on some of this life goal stuff. I'd personally recommend someone who practices positive psychology or Logotherapy. If you find something in your current situation that has the spark, lean into it for all it's worth.
I've been there and back again a few times. It gets better if you work on it.
I used to be a data engineer and I was more burnt out despite working very regular hours.
I've jumped to software engineering and was feeling so much better. The problem with the original data engineering job is that the projects are more garbage in and garbage out then it is actually working. This created huge amount of stress for me despite everyone in the chain pushing for the same thing. I can't do it, jumped ship to a much more demanding work environment but I have liked it so much more.
There are great data science/engineering projects, but some of them are not, and some of them won't be despite what it appeared to be. Unfortunately, not all business realize this. I hope your troubles are not related to this because I can see how hard it is to jump out of that feeling except by leaving.
I've jumped to software engineering and was feeling so much better. The problem with the original data engineering job is that the projects are more garbage in and garbage out then it is actually working. This created huge amount of stress for me despite everyone in the chain pushing for the same thing. I can't do it, jumped ship to a much more demanding work environment but I have liked it so much more.
There are great data science/engineering projects, but some of them are not, and some of them won't be despite what it appeared to be. Unfortunately, not all business realize this. I hope your troubles are not related to this because I can see how hard it is to jump out of that feeling except by leaving.
I think the number-one thing that determines how quickly you burn out is if you have hobbies or not. Everyone who I know that stayed consistently passionate about their primary field always had other stuff to come home to. If you focus all of your energy on one topic for a prolonged period of time, you'll certainly drive yourself into a rut. Find something else you're passionate about, and turn it into a hobby. Or maybe use this as an opportunity to learn that one thing that you've always been curious about. The world is your oyster!
This is a big thing that I was dealing with, then I got into tabletop gaming in particular Warhammer 40k specifically because it was something that didn't involve a computer and it would involve a more artistic and manual side.
The good news it really helped and I am able to balance my job more effectively. The bad news is now am losing all of my money to tiny little plastic action figures and my wife keeps silently judging me because I am a grown man playing with army men. So maybe don't do tabletop gaming.
The good news it really helped and I am able to balance my job more effectively. The bad news is now am losing all of my money to tiny little plastic action figures and my wife keeps silently judging me because I am a grown man playing with army men. So maybe don't do tabletop gaming.
[deleted]
I guess that although you can make some downtime and definitely the nutrition and exercise will help but you also need to be honest about your job and role.
All the self-help in the world won't work if either you are not well-suited to the role you are in, and are therefore becoming stressed or otherwise the work environment/management is toxic and doesn't suit your personality or expectations.
Even when I am tired, I can get into my work because it inspires and challenges me and is within my ability level (but isn't too easy as to be boring).
All the self-help in the world won't work if either you are not well-suited to the role you are in, and are therefore becoming stressed or otherwise the work environment/management is toxic and doesn't suit your personality or expectations.
Even when I am tired, I can get into my work because it inspires and challenges me and is within my ability level (but isn't too easy as to be boring).
I've burnt out a hundred times and come back a hundred times. Give your body and mind some time to regain inspiration. Each time you come back, you come back stronger than before. Your mind will find new things it's interested in.
Turn of all computers, go outside, force yourself to "exist" without any stimulation like your cell phone, caffeine, alcohol etc. All of these things prevent us from experiencing boredom which means recovering from burnout takes longer.
Burnout is a normal part of the creative process and expect it to happen again.
Turn of all computers, go outside, force yourself to "exist" without any stimulation like your cell phone, caffeine, alcohol etc. All of these things prevent us from experiencing boredom which means recovering from burnout takes longer.
Burnout is a normal part of the creative process and expect it to happen again.
It is good to have a change. It can also be good on the paycheck to ladder a little bit. Every 2-4 years you should be looking for another job at a higher rate anyway imo. When you stay with a company they tend to abuse and increases come slowly. Starting a new job even if it is in the same carer path will freshen things up for a year or 2 and then it is time to repeat before you burn out again. I have even left a company to go back(for more money) with the results still being less burnout.
My worry is with my current inability to focus and such I would do poorly in an interview, but maybe that's just a bad loop of self-doubt I can work on.
that could be, it may help just to do some interviewing anyway. It is not the end of the world case you are not accepted, and it could spur some new thinking, or build some confidence in any case. Burnout is serious and not doing anything is worse than trying some things I think.
I've not done it myself yet but I've known people who've sworn by this and I'm intrigued what the rest of HN thinks.. Apparently long challenges/walks can hugely reset the brain and expand perspectives. Stuff like doing the Camino de Santiago, the Pacific Crest Trail, hiking to Everest Base Camp, the Appalachian Trial, etc. Might be difficult in this environment though I'm hoping to do a pilgrimage myself one day.
This works great for me; what's most important is understanding what it is and how it materialises. Dealing with it becomes much simpler once you can reason about it: https://markpapadakis.medium.com/how-to-prevent-burnout-and-...
I started investing aggressively and realized that the way to live a sane life and real work-life balance is to focus on growing my wealth over time instead of growing my salary. I was lucky to retire early, but what's more important is that I was able to distance my self worth from my position at the company I was working at.
They pay you for work because it’s work, not because it’s fun. It’s easy to say, but they get X from you for that money. They don’t take it, you give it. If you are unhappy with how much you are giving than give less. If they are unhappy with how much you are giving than they pay less. Just adjust how much you are willing to give.
I also recently dealt with my first burnout. What helped me most was a trip away to a (somewhat dull) area with my close family
Avoided looking at any of my screens, temporarily ban any work-related thoughts for a few days; went on hikes, made good meals
Was a bit bored but being able to pause and rest made a world of difference
Was a bit bored but being able to pause and rest made a world of difference
It's counterintuitive, but I think feeling bored sometimes is a good thing. I think being overstimulated all of the time can have negative effects on our health that we do not yet understand.
A big part of burnout is feeling like you're not making any progress, especially when you're the "expert".
Try being a beginner again at something.
After I burnt out, I started making YouTube videos. Even though I'm a total beginner at it, I'm having a lot of fun, and am making tangible progress!
Try being a beginner again at something.
After I burnt out, I started making YouTube videos. Even though I'm a total beginner at it, I'm having a lot of fun, and am making tangible progress!
The first step is to figure out what's actually causing you to burn out, which sounds easy but is usually a lot trickier because you need to be far away enough from it to see things objectively.
I recommend starting a journal and writing down all the things you think are causing the burn out, especially when you are feeling overwhelmed.
Some areas to think about:
- Your expectations: where do they come from?
- Habits and routines: are they healthy? According to you or others?
After about a few weeks or a month of doing this, I recommend going to a park or somewhere quiet you don't usually go (or maybe, never have been) and reading over what you've written. The point of this is to get you out of your default setting where you might fall into a positive feedback loop where you can't imagine other possibilities or where you automatically shutdown any kind of solution proposal.
Start by prioritizing one issue to work on, and start recording your progress on that thing and see where it takes you. When that gets better, take on the next thing, etc. Small, incremental improvements. This applies to anything you think is a problem: sleep, exercise, job satisfaction, etc.
Something to realize here is that you want to make as much progress on things you can control at the time, and you won't always be able to effectively tackle certain problems with your current self or tools.
It's sort of like those games where you get stuck in an area because you haven't done the pre-requisites nobody told you about yet. It's OK to give up on something you're making no progress on (as long as you tried everything and kept track of it) and do something else you can make progress on.
I recommend starting a journal and writing down all the things you think are causing the burn out, especially when you are feeling overwhelmed.
Some areas to think about:
- Your expectations: where do they come from?
- Habits and routines: are they healthy? According to you or others?
After about a few weeks or a month of doing this, I recommend going to a park or somewhere quiet you don't usually go (or maybe, never have been) and reading over what you've written. The point of this is to get you out of your default setting where you might fall into a positive feedback loop where you can't imagine other possibilities or where you automatically shutdown any kind of solution proposal.
Start by prioritizing one issue to work on, and start recording your progress on that thing and see where it takes you. When that gets better, take on the next thing, etc. Small, incremental improvements. This applies to anything you think is a problem: sleep, exercise, job satisfaction, etc.
Something to realize here is that you want to make as much progress on things you can control at the time, and you won't always be able to effectively tackle certain problems with your current self or tools.
It's sort of like those games where you get stuck in an area because you haven't done the pre-requisites nobody told you about yet. It's OK to give up on something you're making no progress on (as long as you tried everything and kept track of it) and do something else you can make progress on.
I don't know how to deal with it but I'll tell you what not to do. Don't let it build up and overtake you like I did this year. Find a way to deal with it or you can feel like your world is falling apart.
Only thing that has worked for me was to get a new job. I tried to work through it, but my performance continually degraded. Only something new/exciting kept me going. Gone through this 3 times now.
1 month ago discussion:
Advices for Burnout and Depression
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27226918
Advices for Burnout and Depression
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27226918
Less than a month ago:
Post Burnout Ideas
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27410951
Post Burnout Ideas
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27410951
I'm much later in my career (25 years in academia and industry). I stopped working as hard but didn't reduce my hours, and started taking wellbutrin.
Stop using computers/mobile phones/the internet for 2 weeks. That’s it. Your brain will finally get a chance to rest and recover.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Check back in after a couple months.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Find a group and start cycling with them. Get up to 3-4 times a week. Long, steady rides. Build up your cardio.
Check back in after a couple months.
I was about five years into being a game developer when this happened to me. I took two years off and went to film school.
Take some time off, and slowly go back to coding with some personal projects, alternate with outdoor activities
Move to a different city.
Take an extended break.
I’ve seen both these ideas work for me in the past.
Other ideas (ymmv): Pets
Other ideas (ymmv): Pets
Take a break, travel, refresh, and then start looking for another job that gets you excited again.
Have you taken a vacation yet? Do you do programming hobbies?
Is this burnout? Or a transition from play to work?
Is this burnout? Or a transition from play to work?
* Forgive yourself, realize that your enthusiasm for work isn't going to be a constant semi-obsessive joy, these things come and go
* Don't start to define yourself as burned out. There is magic in naming things and adding a label to yourself has the tendency to reinforce the characteristic. From diagnoses to identifications, realize that putting a negative label on yourself might be part of the problem
* Do identify cause and effect. What works, what doesn't. Maybe alcohol, social interactions, certain kinds of work, certain habits, diet, exercise, people, places, etc. can have effects positive and negative. These effects can also change. There are things I could do at 19 I couldn't do at 25 and are laughably impossible at 33.
* Do a phase change. Maybe redecorate, purge useless posessions, start a new diet, a new daily routine, hobby, activity, move to a new city, start a new job, whatever.
* Take care of yourself, do stuff in moderation. Getting just a little bit older can make things you could ignore impossible to ignore any more. Sleep is super important and good sleep. Try out different things.
* Realize that a job is just a job. Maybe you want to accept it for what it is and let yourself be excited by something else for a while.
* Read works by stoics, learn to accept things as they come and find happiness by buying it. You'll find that peace of mind and be bought very cheaply by accepting things you have no control over and just letting them happen.
* The honeymoon might just be over. All of them are eventually. It can just be a case of not realizing that this is what happens. Beginnings are the same as middles, and there's no reason to beat yourself up about it.
* Don't start to define yourself as burned out. There is magic in naming things and adding a label to yourself has the tendency to reinforce the characteristic. From diagnoses to identifications, realize that putting a negative label on yourself might be part of the problem
* Do identify cause and effect. What works, what doesn't. Maybe alcohol, social interactions, certain kinds of work, certain habits, diet, exercise, people, places, etc. can have effects positive and negative. These effects can also change. There are things I could do at 19 I couldn't do at 25 and are laughably impossible at 33.
* Do a phase change. Maybe redecorate, purge useless posessions, start a new diet, a new daily routine, hobby, activity, move to a new city, start a new job, whatever.
* Take care of yourself, do stuff in moderation. Getting just a little bit older can make things you could ignore impossible to ignore any more. Sleep is super important and good sleep. Try out different things.
* Realize that a job is just a job. Maybe you want to accept it for what it is and let yourself be excited by something else for a while.
* Read works by stoics, learn to accept things as they come and find happiness by buying it. You'll find that peace of mind and be bought very cheaply by accepting things you have no control over and just letting them happen.
* The honeymoon might just be over. All of them are eventually. It can just be a case of not realizing that this is what happens. Beginnings are the same as middles, and there's no reason to beat yourself up about it.
another convo about this not even a day ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27588027
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27588027