No Space Left to Run: China's Transnational Repression of Uyghurs(uhrp.org)
uhrp.org
No Space Left to Run: China's Transnational Repression of Uyghurs
https://uhrp.org/report/no-space-left-to-run-chinas-transnational-repression-of-uyghurs/
62 comments
For countries that have the concept of a "constitution", I think extraditions should be made illegal and declared "unconstitutional" since you cannot guarantee that the target country has the same quality/level of constitution as the country an individual is extradited from.
This is actually often the case. See for example the EU charter of fundamental rights:
> Article 19 - Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition
> 1. Collective expulsions are prohibited.
> 2. No one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a State where there is a serious risk that he or she would be subjected to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
[edit: source] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/19-protection-ev...
> Article 19 - Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition
> 1. Collective expulsions are prohibited.
> 2. No one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a State where there is a serious risk that he or she would be subjected to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
[edit: source] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/19-protection-ev...
That didn't help McAfee though, I wonder why :)
I would guess it's because the US doesn't impose the death penalty for tax evasion...
I did not see the details of the extradition, but Spain often does things that are against EU rules and those things end up in EU court a decade later. I wonder if this was allowed for Spain to do and if McAfee could not have turned to EU to force ruling on this. Then, whether or not they would overturn, you are a decade further along.
> I think extraditions should be made illegal and declared "unconstitutional" since you cannot guarantee that the target country has the same quality/level of constitution as the country an individual is extradited from.
Extraditions are already approved by courts, and often are negated.
For a famous example it took >30 years to get Cesare Battisti[0] to an Italian jail since France, Mexico and Brazil denied his extradition.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Battisti_(born_1954)#Di...
Extraditions are already approved by courts, and often are negated.
For a famous example it took >30 years to get Cesare Battisti[0] to an Italian jail since France, Mexico and Brazil denied his extradition.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Battisti_(born_1954)#Di...
A couple timely articles by Jerome Cohen on PRC/west extradition.
https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/should-murder-go-unpunished-...
https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/should-murder-go-unpunished-...
https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/should-murder-go-unpunished-...
https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/should-murder-go-unpunished-...
To anyone who doesn't know, Radio Free Asia is a CIA cut-out and World Uyghur Congress is a CIA (NED) funded separatist group. [1]
[1] https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-...
[1] https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-...
More important, perhaps, is to say what the institution is:
> UHRP was founded in 2004 as a project of the Uyghur American Association and became an independent nonprofit organization in 2016.
But that does not by itself mean the source is untrustworthy. There are numerous NGOs in democratic countries that do stellar (and often dangerous) work on things that happen in autocratic regimes.
From a quick glance at the methods section, this report seems to be well-researched and robustly documented.
> UHRP was founded in 2004 as a project of the Uyghur American Association and became an independent nonprofit organization in 2016.
But that does not by itself mean the source is untrustworthy. There are numerous NGOs in democratic countries that do stellar (and often dangerous) work on things that happen in autocratic regimes.
From a quick glance at the methods section, this report seems to be well-researched and robustly documented.
The report seems to be well-researched, but their definition of "repression" is eyebrow-raising at times:
According to reports in Chinese media, on March 1, 2014, a group of eight black-clad, knife-wielding Uyghur men and women stabbed dozens of people to death and injured hundreds of others in the railway station in Kunming, Yunnan province. According to RFA reporting, the group was attempting to flee to Southeast Asia when security blocked their route, resulting in the group’s desperate decision to commit this act of mass violence.[120] By November of that year, the PRC claimed to have broken up a Turkish-led ring providing Uyghurs with fake passports, accusing the Turkish state of funneling Uyghur fighters to Syria (where evidence of TIP activities emerged at the time).[121] It was clear that by this point, China had thoroughly closed off most routes for Uyghur refugees. International media coverage of the events in Kunming also marked a turning point in media representations of Uyghurs, as some outlets uncritically adopted the official characterization of the events as “Uyghur terrorism.”[122]
That makes me wonder how many of the other people they include in their count were critically analyzed to reveal that they were really only desperate and definitely not involved in any terrorism at all.
According to reports in Chinese media, on March 1, 2014, a group of eight black-clad, knife-wielding Uyghur men and women stabbed dozens of people to death and injured hundreds of others in the railway station in Kunming, Yunnan province. According to RFA reporting, the group was attempting to flee to Southeast Asia when security blocked their route, resulting in the group’s desperate decision to commit this act of mass violence.[120] By November of that year, the PRC claimed to have broken up a Turkish-led ring providing Uyghurs with fake passports, accusing the Turkish state of funneling Uyghur fighters to Syria (where evidence of TIP activities emerged at the time).[121] It was clear that by this point, China had thoroughly closed off most routes for Uyghur refugees. International media coverage of the events in Kunming also marked a turning point in media representations of Uyghurs, as some outlets uncritically adopted the official characterization of the events as “Uyghur terrorism.”[122]
That makes me wonder how many of the other people they include in their count were critically analyzed to reveal that they were really only desperate and definitely not involved in any terrorism at all.
It's important to recognize potentially legitimate arrests, yes.
But - correct me if I'm wrong - the passage that you're citing is not used to describe repression. The report lists it as the starting point and excuse for repression. So even though said incident may have been a genuine act of terrorism, the report is concerned with subsequent repercussions.
But - correct me if I'm wrong - the passage that you're citing is not used to describe repression. The report lists it as the starting point and excuse for repression. So even though said incident may have been a genuine act of terrorism, the report is concerned with subsequent repercussions.
The passage is two thirds down the page after a long list of people getting arrested, banned from traveling, extradited, having their organizations declared illegal, killed in a raid by the Pakistani military etc., so I don't think it's intended to signify the starting point and excuse for repression.
It seems to me like they're saying that the individuals in question shouldn't have been stopped by security (just like in all the prior cases they list) and terrorism was just a pretext. The problem I have with that is that I consider the stabbing to be unambiguously a terrorist attack, so I can't trust their evaluation in other cases of what counts as repression vs. legitimately trying to prevent terrorist attacks. I guess I could dig up their sources to find out in which cases I agree with their assessment, but that kind of defeats the point of having a report conveniently summarizing the data.
It seems to me like they're saying that the individuals in question shouldn't have been stopped by security (just like in all the prior cases they list) and terrorism was just a pretext. The problem I have with that is that I consider the stabbing to be unambiguously a terrorist attack, so I can't trust their evaluation in other cases of what counts as repression vs. legitimately trying to prevent terrorist attacks. I guess I could dig up their sources to find out in which cases I agree with their assessment, but that kind of defeats the point of having a report conveniently summarizing the data.
You're right, I agree - the framing and wording is completely out of place. Fleeing from repression does not justify such horrible violence.
What irks me most is the phrase "resulting in the group’s desperate decision to commit this act of mass violence." I would even argue that mass violence is not something one can commit out of desperation, it requires a frightening committment.
What irks me most is the phrase "resulting in the group’s desperate decision to commit this act of mass violence." I would even argue that mass violence is not something one can commit out of desperation, it requires a frightening committment.
It's not to excuse it but to explain it. Here in Hong Kong we got a taste of china kneejerk reaction to violent dissent and it should not be forgotten that things like that have a starting point.
The communists are making a terrible strategic mistake in Xinjiang by creating a shared oppression but they did it following a series of events that is important to remember.
For instance I d strongly discourage mass murder in Hong Kong as a way to express discontent since China would be ready to intern us all in singing camps where we d be beaten into singing the glory of the motherland.
The communists are making a terrible strategic mistake in Xinjiang by creating a shared oppression but they did it following a series of events that is important to remember.
For instance I d strongly discourage mass murder in Hong Kong as a way to express discontent since China would be ready to intern us all in singing camps where we d be beaten into singing the glory of the motherland.
These are guys are Washington professionals.
I don't have any concrete insights on the situation in Xinjiang.
However as far as I can tell it is a lot more stable there than was 10-15 years where you had the Xinjiang riots and the series of terrorist attacks that followed.
What has changed though is the US-China relationship which has gone from corporation, including in military matters in the Xinjiang/Afghanisation border region, into a full-on propaganda war.
Also notice the use of the term "East Turkistan" which generally is a designation that is used by people who want a breakup of China into multiple smaller nations.
Needless to say this is an aggresive stance.
I don't have any concrete insights on the situation in Xinjiang.
However as far as I can tell it is a lot more stable there than was 10-15 years where you had the Xinjiang riots and the series of terrorist attacks that followed.
What has changed though is the US-China relationship which has gone from corporation, including in military matters in the Xinjiang/Afghanisation border region, into a full-on propaganda war.
Also notice the use of the term "East Turkistan" which generally is a designation that is used by people who want a breakup of China into multiple smaller nations.
Needless to say this is an aggresive stance.
Obviously a clear potential conflict of interest, but you should also assess the claims they make in light of the evidence.
While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter.
For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs. And nothing ever really changes. Sure, the supplier in question gets banned (something that literally takes years to happen). But then after a while another supplier turns up which uses forced labor.
Apple is actually one of the few companies that is big enough and has the resources to move production somewhere where forced labor isn't an issue. But they don't even make an effort.
For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs. And nothing ever really changes. Sure, the supplier in question gets banned (something that literally takes years to happen). But then after a while another supplier turns up which uses forced labor.
Apple is actually one of the few companies that is big enough and has the resources to move production somewhere where forced labor isn't an issue. But they don't even make an effort.
At this point I'd already be OK to pay 10% more for an equivalent certified China free phone.
E.g. I paid around $600 for my phone. If there was a rack next to it with the exact same model except it was certified China free and $60 more expensive I'd pick that. Edit: thinking about it it is also more than 10% and significantly more on smaller purchases.
That said, nothing against Chinese people. I'm on friendly terms with the Chinese at work, ny Chinese neighbours etc etc.
This is only about the CCP.
E.g. I paid around $600 for my phone. If there was a rack next to it with the exact same model except it was certified China free and $60 more expensive I'd pick that. Edit: thinking about it it is also more than 10% and significantly more on smaller purchases.
That said, nothing against Chinese people. I'm on friendly terms with the Chinese at work, ny Chinese neighbours etc etc.
This is only about the CCP.
Either the premium would be much more than 10% or the labor problems would just manifest elsewhere. Current consumerism is built on near zero cost labor and unfortunately corporate greed and consumer ignorance greatly outstrips and motivation to change this.
Automation should have been the answer instead of offshoring to cheap labor.
Automation is harder than people give it credit and as a result more expensive than cheap labor. Ultimately companies are about delivering shareholder value and ESG investing hasn't been a thing until relatively recently so there has been no motivation on these fronts.
Wishing it isn't so isn't the same as reality I am afraid.
Wishing it isn't so isn't the same as reality I am afraid.
Automation isn’t good enough yet. Making iPhones by hand was critical for Apple to build a superior product to Nokia who heavily used automation.
It may be the answer in future though.
It may be the answer in future though.
> certified China free and $60 more expensive
Unfortunately it is a bit more expensive than that: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa. Alternatively, have a look at https://www.fairphone.com/en/.
Unfortunately it is a bit more expensive than that: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa. Alternatively, have a look at https://www.fairphone.com/en/.
Ok, update: My phone is an iPhone. I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China.
And yes, there are probably a number of other places I don't want it to be produced, but let us start with the place that literally used Falun Gong practitioners as spare parts and that literally run government sanctioned forced sterilization programs for certain ethnicities (unlike the US where one doctors action caused worldwide news coverage because of the same.)
And yes, there are probably a number of other places I don't want it to be produced, but let us start with the place that literally used Falun Gong practitioners as spare parts and that literally run government sanctioned forced sterilization programs for certain ethnicities (unlike the US where one doctors action caused worldwide news coverage because of the same.)
> I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China.
Apple does not seem to care much about repressions or human rights:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386
Apple does not seem to care much about repressions or human rights:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386
Totally besides the point.
They care about money and I say I'd pay more money for a certified China free iPhone.
They care about money and I say I'd pay more money for a certified China free iPhone.
> I'd pay more money
> produced at Apple scale
How many people do you think will do the same? The money is the reason why Apple doesn't care.
> produced at Apple scale
How many people do you think will do the same? The money is the reason why Apple doesn't care.
It's called micro scale lobbying.
I invented the term right now by the way.
I know a few hundred Apple engineers, Google engineers and current and future founders are reading this thread as well as a few thousand prospective iPhone buyers.
I am sowing an idea into all those peoples thoughts.
I invented the term right now by the way.
I know a few hundred Apple engineers, Google engineers and current and future founders are reading this thread as well as a few thousand prospective iPhone buyers.
I am sowing an idea into all those peoples thoughts.
No it isn’t - Apple makes older iPhones in several places outside China.
The problem is that there is nowhere (yet) that allows them to do it with the latest models at adequate scale and speed because the supply chain and management expertise simply doesn’t exist yet.
The problem is that there is nowhere (yet) that allows them to do it with the latest models at adequate scale and speed because the supply chain and management expertise simply doesn’t exist yet.
No evidence of that in these links.
Did you read the titles? For your convenience:
"Apple knew a supplier was using child labor but took 3 years to fully cut ties (yahoo.com)"
"Apple's Cooperation with Authoritarian Governments (jessesquires.com)"
It clearly shows what I say.
"Apple knew a supplier was using child labor but took 3 years to fully cut ties (yahoo.com)"
"Apple's Cooperation with Authoritarian Governments (jessesquires.com)"
It clearly shows what I say.
No it doesn’t. In case you haven’t noticed, headlines are not facts or analysis.
These are just opinion pieces, neither of which have any insight into what Apple cares about or does not care about.
These are just opinion pieces, neither of which have any insight into what Apple cares about or does not care about.
1. I agree with that surcharge. But I would like to have the option to choose: the cheaper one from China or the +30% one made in the USA/EU one.
2. Please stop saying this "it is only the CCP, Chinese are OK". 100 million people are in the CCP and the approval rating of the CCP is extremly high. I worked in China, I used to travel to China very often (before the Covid crisis happened). Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. I my eyes this "I have the CCP, but Chinese people are OK" argument is flawed. You could argue that you oppose the system of the PRC and you favor the democratic system, but "CCP BAD, PEOPLE OK" is flawed and speaks against hundreds of million of Chinese people. And now, downvote me into the oblivion, because my reply is not going mainstream - as always.
A poll of nearly 20,000 people carried out by Cary Wu from the York University in Ontario Canada in 2020 found that Chinese people’s trust in their own state government had risen to 98 per cent."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.18...
2. Please stop saying this "it is only the CCP, Chinese are OK". 100 million people are in the CCP and the approval rating of the CCP is extremly high. I worked in China, I used to travel to China very often (before the Covid crisis happened). Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. I my eyes this "I have the CCP, but Chinese people are OK" argument is flawed. You could argue that you oppose the system of the PRC and you favor the democratic system, but "CCP BAD, PEOPLE OK" is flawed and speaks against hundreds of million of Chinese people. And now, downvote me into the oblivion, because my reply is not going mainstream - as always.
A poll of nearly 20,000 people carried out by Cary Wu from the York University in Ontario Canada in 2020 found that Chinese people’s trust in their own state government had risen to 98 per cent."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.18...
Have my upvote, but my point is I'm not angry at any individual Chinese individual that I personally know.
Neither do I think they are less worth than us.
Neither do I think they are less worth than us.
> Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP.
Except they have no idea what CCP are actually doing due to the propaganda. In the same way, most Americans think that Snowden is a traitor.
Except they have no idea what CCP are actually doing due to the propaganda. In the same way, most Americans think that Snowden is a traitor.
Saying that Chinese people are okay, and are not necessarily represented by the actions of the Chinese state, isn't about anything more than trying to prevent violence and hate from being targeted towards ethically East Asian-looking people. There is precedence for this kind of violence, and if we're angry at China for human rights abuses, we should not breed an environment in which the human rights of Chinese people are put at risk in other countries.
It sounds good in theory but in reality it is a pipe dream. All the places Apple could move production to are all using what is essentially slave labour. Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia. The US is also better of course but not anywhere near perfect so if you really want a "clean" product The US wont do either.
> Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia.
Sure, if that what it takes to solve the issue then I guess that's what it takes.
Or are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem as long as as it isn't in our own backyard? So slavery in the 1800's was a problem but we can live with the fruits of modern day forced labor since we want our cheap iPhone?
Sure, if that what it takes to solve the issue then I guess that's what it takes.
Or are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem as long as as it isn't in our own backyard? So slavery in the 1800's was a problem but we can live with the fruits of modern day forced labor since we want our cheap iPhone?
Ethics are flexible. e.g. Westwards expansion and killing off the natives wasn't a problem in the 1800s but is only a problem now.
Isn’t that what progress is all about though? We are maturing as a society, or are at least trying to.
However when a side uses such methods, and then retains its advantages while now vilifying other countries for trying to do the same while catching up it just seems a touch hypocritical / "pulling the ladder up".
What are you arguing? That side genocided in the past so other side please go ahead and do so now? Do you realize how absurdly callous that sounds? This isn't a board game we're playing with wooden figures for pieces. These are human lives. We have a chance to do something about these people who are suffering today, now.
Yes. I am not here to impress you with my morality. I'm just saying that it's awfully convenient for the side who did so in the past and reaped all its advantages without meaningful reparation to suddenly care about some strangers in some faraway land now.
And this is without going into what the Western powers directly did to China back in the day.
And this is without going into what the Western powers directly did to China back in the day.
I care about these people. I don't have a time machine to go back and save the Native Americans or Greenlandic Inuits or Jews from the predations of world powers. It's not awfully convenient for me to care about the genocide of a million people. If I was alive during World War 2 and I received multiple, independent reports that a genocide was being committed by a foreign power, I would be agitating for that foreign power to be held accountable just as I am today.
I dearly hope we've moved past barbaric eye for an eye justice.
I dearly hope we've moved past barbaric eye for an eye justice.
>are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem
We're not going to say that, but we're going to go along with it. Maybe even while we're saying the opposite.
We're not going to say that, but we're going to go along with it. Maybe even while we're saying the opposite.
> Or are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem as long as as it isn't in our own backyard? So slavery in the 1800's was a problem but we can live with the fruits of modern day forced labor since we want our cheap iPhone?
Modern day forced labor is still allowed and utilised in the United Stated - it's mandatory for all able-bodied inmates in federal and most state prisons. For an additional kicker, US is also leading the world in both absolute and percentage of population measures of people incarcerated and has for decades.
The difference with what is happening in China is how targeted it is, what the conditions of labor are and how eager various US corporations are to directly use fruits of said labor - but it is just as immoral.
Modern day forced labor is still allowed and utilised in the United Stated - it's mandatory for all able-bodied inmates in federal and most state prisons. For an additional kicker, US is also leading the world in both absolute and percentage of population measures of people incarcerated and has for decades.
The difference with what is happening in China is how targeted it is, what the conditions of labor are and how eager various US corporations are to directly use fruits of said labor - but it is just as immoral.
This is false. Work programs in US prisons are almost always voluntary. Only a few states have some limited Penal labor if it is added as part of the sentence by the court, but they are uncommon, and does not happen at the federal level at all.
Learning to work at a job, if done correctly, can be part of a constructive rehabilitation program. ...though I'm skeptical the degree to which that occurs.
Learning to work at a job, if done correctly, can be part of a constructive rehabilitation program. ...though I'm skeptical the degree to which that occurs.
> While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter.
No thanks. This is not up for companies to do.
No thanks. This is not up for companies to do.
> For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs.
More likely, companies will start discriminating against non-han employees to avoid being accused of forced labour. That seems more practical than moving production out of China.
More likely, companies will start discriminating against non-han employees to avoid being accused of forced labour. That seems more practical than moving production out of China.
People have voted with their wallets. They have voted that they don't care.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
@dang - can we filter this noise or pin it to the posting and the inevitable quibbling over the relevance?
i think it's very relevant. The Jews in nazi Germany were a persecuted minority, the world ignored their plight and ignored the military buildup of Germany - and then we got a big war. There is more than one analogy with what is happening now. I suspect that some forces in China are testing the level of what they can get away with; If we look the other way on the Uyghurs, then this will embolden them.
It's ironic because the fact people don't really care about the message of the poem, is actually what the author was warning us about...live and learn ?
if it's a minority ethnic group on a border region of a rival power america will sit up, take notice and probably throw money at them.
First they came for my strawman, and I did not speak out - Because I was not interested in discussing matter at hands.
Then nothing happened.
Then nothing happened.