A personal story of treating social anxiety with 5-MeO-DMT (2016)(psychedelictimes.com)
psychedelictimes.com
A personal story of treating social anxiety with 5-MeO-DMT (2016)
https://psychedelictimes.com/nuclear-option-personal-story-of-treating-social-anxiety-with-5-meo-dmt/
71 comments
Counterpoint to the "alone"/"trup sitter" thing - If you are prone to feeling socially anxious, if you trust yourself more than other people, amd if you trust yourself to avoid dangerous/embarassing situations - It's possible that having people around specifically tasked to observe your mental state might be more harm that help.
Personally I can think of one psychedelic experience that became very unpleasant (though educational!) simply because I felt the people around me thought I was insane.
Personally I can think of one psychedelic experience that became very unpleasant (though educational!) simply because I felt the people around me thought I was insane.
You could die from choking on your own vomit or physically injure yourself from moving around without being conscious of the outside world while under the influence of 5-MeO-DMT. This is why you want someone around, so they can keep you safe.
So I'd say the risk of being uncomfortable with people around is of less potential harm than of dying or physically injuring yourself if you're by yourself and something goes wrong.
Besides, once you've blasted off on a serious dose the outside world disappears and as far as you're concerned no one else is there but you (sometimes not even you). But, yeah, if being around others makes you anxious then maybe you won't be in the best frame of mind when you do it (you want to maximize feeling good).. but still better that than being dead or injured, imo.
So I'd say the risk of being uncomfortable with people around is of less potential harm than of dying or physically injuring yourself if you're by yourself and something goes wrong.
Besides, once you've blasted off on a serious dose the outside world disappears and as far as you're concerned no one else is there but you (sometimes not even you). But, yeah, if being around others makes you anxious then maybe you won't be in the best frame of mind when you do it (you want to maximize feeling good).. but still better that than being dead or injured, imo.
- not doing this alone
- very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to
Agreed, strongly.
Set and setting are important for psychedelics. They should ideally be taken in a comfortable environment with people you trust…and hopefully they’re not tripping as well. Or at least, they have experience.
The first time I took LSD was by myself. That was…perhaps not the best idea. It turned out fine, but whoo, it was a lot.
- very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to
Agreed, strongly.
Set and setting are important for psychedelics. They should ideally be taken in a comfortable environment with people you trust…and hopefully they’re not tripping as well. Or at least, they have experience.
The first time I took LSD was by myself. That was…perhaps not the best idea. It turned out fine, but whoo, it was a lot.
Also just want to emphasize how correct this is.
And yeah wow on your own the first time. Damn.
I was with 2 others taking and 2 people not to guide in a comfortable environment and it was a lot even then. It's just an incomparable experience and while bad trips are actually very very rare and you should not worry about them if you've prepared everything else right, the experience is still just.. well.. wow!
And yeah wow on your own the first time. Damn.
I was with 2 others taking and 2 people not to guide in a comfortable environment and it was a lot even then. It's just an incomparable experience and while bad trips are actually very very rare and you should not worry about them if you've prepared everything else right, the experience is still just.. well.. wow!
I've always tripped alone, as an introvert, and I love having the whole space to myself and just having a good time without worrying about other people too much
Agree with all the above, but I'd also emphasize dosage.
I think I remember a study that showed the risk of people having a bad reaction is very clearly correlated to taking too much. Which should be pretty obvious.
Start slow! You can always take more.
Agree with all the above, but I'd also emphasize dosage.
I think I remember a study that showed the risk of people having a bad reaction is very clearly correlated to taking too much. Which should be pretty obvious.
Start slow! You can always take more.
The main risks of doing 5-MeO-DMT alone are:
1 - you can vomit and choke on your own vomit while being completely out of your body and without any consciousness of the outside world or bodily control
2 - some people move around a lot on it, while being effectively unconscious of the world around them... this can cause them to hit their head or otherwise injure themselves
So it's much safer to have someone watching over you.. someone who is trained to put you in to the recovery position if you start vomiting, and to otherwise keep you physically safe.
1 - you can vomit and choke on your own vomit while being completely out of your body and without any consciousness of the outside world or bodily control
2 - some people move around a lot on it, while being effectively unconscious of the world around them... this can cause them to hit their head or otherwise injure themselves
So it's much safer to have someone watching over you.. someone who is trained to put you in to the recovery position if you start vomiting, and to otherwise keep you physically safe.
Absolutely, that sounds like very good advice for 5-MeO-DMT specifically.
> ... lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element.
Just a friendly reminder that this article is directly affiliated with the website it was posted on.
Just a friendly reminder that this article is directly affiliated with the website it was posted on.
And this publication profits off of promoting psychedelics and getting sponsorships from these psychedelic retreat centers.
This article is one step away from those spammy YouTube ads that promise to treat medical illnesses with secret discoveries. Click here to learn more…
The fact that he was a reader of Psychedlic Times to the point of using them to identify treatment centers suggests this isn’t your average anxiety sufferer. This person was a true believer in psychedelics from the start, which is a huge variable in an outcome know to be prone to significant placebo effect.
This article is one step away from those spammy YouTube ads that promise to treat medical illnesses with secret discoveries. Click here to learn more…
The fact that he was a reader of Psychedlic Times to the point of using them to identify treatment centers suggests this isn’t your average anxiety sufferer. This person was a true believer in psychedelics from the start, which is a huge variable in an outcome know to be prone to significant placebo effect.
Interesting story, but as always it’s important to consider the source. These results shouldn’t be interpreted as typical or average. 5-MeO-DMT isn’t extraordinarily rare or hard to obtain, but stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common.
Even the subject recommends against self experimentation, owing much of his outcome to the overall experience and ritual itself. He suggests he was skeptical, but skeptics don’t get on an airplane and travel to a destination to consume psychedelics under the guise of self-healing. The placebo effect plays a strong role in many of these outcomes, with the jarring experience of taking a psychedelic and having reality dissolve act as a sort of super-place that signals that whatever experience was had was noteworthy in a supernatural way.
That sort of super-placebo effect doesn’t only amplify positive thoughts, though. Any psychedelic guide will emphasize “set and setting” as important because it’s well-known that a negative set and setting can trigger a harmful trip which can exacerbate pre-existing anxieties and negative ideas rather than making them disappear as this single anecdote would suggest. More realistically, “set and setting” had become a code phrase for post-rationalizing bad trips as being the fault of the user, not the drug, as relatively little guidance is provided about what constitutes proper set and setting. Instead, negative trips are hand-waved away as problems with “set and setting” as a way to vindicate the drug itself.
In more typical real-world experiences, life changing results like this aren’t typical. Some users report a sort of afterglow effect, but it often fades in a matter of days or weeks. This leaves some of those users chasing additional doses or wondering what they’ve done wrong. On the other end of the spectrum, psychedelic experiences can and do trigger long lasting negative affect, or even unmask latent mental illness. Again, it’s not uncommon for these to be hand-waved away as pre-existing underlying conditions or improper set and setting, but it’s important to know that negative outcomes or exacerbations of mental illness are a very real possibility.
Psychedelics are an interesting research topic, but we need to be honest and realistic that these aren’t hidden miracle cures that will wipe away anxiety and change everyone’s lives for the better after just one dose.
Even the subject recommends against self experimentation, owing much of his outcome to the overall experience and ritual itself. He suggests he was skeptical, but skeptics don’t get on an airplane and travel to a destination to consume psychedelics under the guise of self-healing. The placebo effect plays a strong role in many of these outcomes, with the jarring experience of taking a psychedelic and having reality dissolve act as a sort of super-place that signals that whatever experience was had was noteworthy in a supernatural way.
That sort of super-placebo effect doesn’t only amplify positive thoughts, though. Any psychedelic guide will emphasize “set and setting” as important because it’s well-known that a negative set and setting can trigger a harmful trip which can exacerbate pre-existing anxieties and negative ideas rather than making them disappear as this single anecdote would suggest. More realistically, “set and setting” had become a code phrase for post-rationalizing bad trips as being the fault of the user, not the drug, as relatively little guidance is provided about what constitutes proper set and setting. Instead, negative trips are hand-waved away as problems with “set and setting” as a way to vindicate the drug itself.
In more typical real-world experiences, life changing results like this aren’t typical. Some users report a sort of afterglow effect, but it often fades in a matter of days or weeks. This leaves some of those users chasing additional doses or wondering what they’ve done wrong. On the other end of the spectrum, psychedelic experiences can and do trigger long lasting negative affect, or even unmask latent mental illness. Again, it’s not uncommon for these to be hand-waved away as pre-existing underlying conditions or improper set and setting, but it’s important to know that negative outcomes or exacerbations of mental illness are a very real possibility.
Psychedelics are an interesting research topic, but we need to be honest and realistic that these aren’t hidden miracle cures that will wipe away anxiety and change everyone’s lives for the better after just one dose.
> stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common
This story itself is not about someone turning his entire life around after a single session. As the author writes:
"Ironically, my first visit to the clinic didn't really address my social anxiety directly, as there was a lot more fundamental stuff that I had to work through. I've been back twice now..."
This story itself is not about someone turning his entire life around after a single session. As the author writes:
"Ironically, my first visit to the clinic didn't really address my social anxiety directly, as there was a lot more fundamental stuff that I had to work through. I've been back twice now..."
Exactly. As I said above, a lot of these psychedelic afterglows are short-lived, leading to an urge to redose to recapture the experience.
Urge to redose is maybe laying it on a bit thick.
Drugs feel good, obviously, but psychedelics aren't particulraly adictive to most people. It's usually pretty draining, not something most people would want to do every day.
The afterglows are pretty long for me!
Love
The afterglows are pretty long for me!
Love
I've had the opposite. Horrendously scary experiences brought on by panic attacks, magnified by the drug and stretched out to subjective days by time dilation. My ego was run through the thresher and dismembered.
Having such a negative experience was probably better though. I rebuilt my ego after a few months and permanently (10+ years now) fixed deep problems in my psyche. But it scared the bejeesus out of me and I have no desire to go through that ever again.
Having such a negative experience was probably better though. I rebuilt my ego after a few months and permanently (10+ years now) fixed deep problems in my psyche. But it scared the bejeesus out of me and I have no desire to go through that ever again.
Bad trips often uncover a lot of negative unconscious material that the tripper does not want to deal with in their ordinary waking consciousness. Psychedelics can sometimes just kind of "put your nose in it" whether you like it or not and make you face these things. Some people can't handle it.. especially if they're not expecting it, have not prepared, and have no professional support to help them to work through and integrate the experience.
It can be terrifying, but my own bad trips (which happened decades ago) have taught me much more than my good trips, which were just fun. Not that I'd want to have a bad trip or wish one on anyone else, but they can be used constructively and be ultimately helpful if one tries to learn from them instead of just push them away.
Surrender to whatever happens during the trip and turning towards the fear has also been shown to lead to a positive outcome as one experiences "ego-death" and then rebirth, which is why this approach is encouraged in professional psychedelic therapy. I've read some psychedelic therapists telling their patients that if they feel like they're dying to just die.. and that it'll be ok.
It can be terrifying, but my own bad trips (which happened decades ago) have taught me much more than my good trips, which were just fun. Not that I'd want to have a bad trip or wish one on anyone else, but they can be used constructively and be ultimately helpful if one tries to learn from them instead of just push them away.
Surrender to whatever happens during the trip and turning towards the fear has also been shown to lead to a positive outcome as one experiences "ego-death" and then rebirth, which is why this approach is encouraged in professional psychedelic therapy. I've read some psychedelic therapists telling their patients that if they feel like they're dying to just die.. and that it'll be ok.
I'm really sorry you went through that, for what it's worth <3
Stay safe.
Stay safe.
You don't need to fly to Mexico and smoke toad venom to trip on DMT. It's very easily produced with no special equipment or skills from simple precursor materials that are readily available and completely legal to buy online in the US. Not that I would know.
Lovely article. Love how simple it was to read. So many times, authors get caught wasting time uselessly describing everything around them. Really cut to the meat quick and fast.
> This isn’t something I feel like people should be experimenting with on their own. Having that envelope, having that support mechanism, is very important. I believe the energy in the room contributes to an experience. Search out people that are knowledgeable and really have experience with these things. The integration work goes hand in hand with the actual psychedelic journeys. Having a psychedelic experience without anyone knowledgeable to help you unravel it probably wouldn’t be productive in a lot of cases. Find competent people to guide you.
> This isn’t something I feel like people should be experimenting with on their own. Having that envelope, having that support mechanism, is very important. I believe the energy in the room contributes to an experience. Search out people that are knowledgeable and really have experience with these things. The integration work goes hand in hand with the actual psychedelic journeys. Having a psychedelic experience without anyone knowledgeable to help you unravel it probably wouldn’t be productive in a lot of cases. Find competent people to guide you.
The title says 5-meo-dmt but article says bufo (from the toad). I find pure 5-meo much nicer -- it can be safely insulfated (though it does burn quite a bit), which makes more a much smoother come-up. My last experience started with insulfation, then smoked a tiny amount after about 15 minutes which catapulted me. (Won't go into details because I can't...it really is an ineffable experience). Also no harm to endangered toads, which is a plus.
People are always making a big damn deal about psychedelics and I’ve been doing shrooms and LSD for like years and it’s been fine.
I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything.
Personally, I enjoy them at festivals too as a party drug and mix it up with MDMA and alcohol and it’s great.
This stuff isn’t even addictive. I stopped for a period of years to test myself.
I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything.
Personally, I enjoy them at festivals too as a party drug and mix it up with MDMA and alcohol and it’s great.
This stuff isn’t even addictive. I stopped for a period of years to test myself.
>I stopped for a period of years to test myself.
I'm glad you did so I don't have to :D
>I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything.
I think if it's genuinely helping people, that's all that matters to me. Everything can't be a big deal to everyone.
LSD works just fine as a party drug. Also works great if you want to use to write 600 lines of harsh self reflection and make a change in your life.
I trust people to tell me how they're feeling about it, for the most parts. It definitely doesn't feel like homeopathics or a placebo, but we'll see what the studies come out saying...
I'm glad you did so I don't have to :D
>I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything.
I think if it's genuinely helping people, that's all that matters to me. Everything can't be a big deal to everyone.
LSD works just fine as a party drug. Also works great if you want to use to write 600 lines of harsh self reflection and make a change in your life.
I trust people to tell me how they're feeling about it, for the most parts. It definitely doesn't feel like homeopathics or a placebo, but we'll see what the studies come out saying...
Oh I have no problem with people using it however they want. It’s just when they’re all about “Don’t do it except in these constrained circumstances” that I’m annoyed.
After I was experienced in some drug usage I realized that listening to these people was causing me some anxiety on trying new drugs because they were all like “BE CAREFUL! This is dangerous!”
Without that anxiety, my experiences were great! I had a blast!
Bunch of fear-mongering. Mongers of fear.
After I was experienced in some drug usage I realized that listening to these people was causing me some anxiety on trying new drugs because they were all like “BE CAREFUL! This is dangerous!”
Without that anxiety, my experiences were great! I had a blast!
Bunch of fear-mongering. Mongers of fear.
I found this article kind of odd, personally.
A million years ago I did quite a bit of 5-MeO-DMT and compared to N,N-DMT (or many other tryptamines) I found it to be… kind of lackluster. I wasn’t aware that there was such a large community that use this substance for spiritual or self improvement purposes.
Kudos to the people that are getting value out of this!
A million years ago I did quite a bit of 5-MeO-DMT and compared to N,N-DMT (or many other tryptamines) I found it to be… kind of lackluster. I wasn’t aware that there was such a large community that use this substance for spiritual or self improvement purposes.
Kudos to the people that are getting value out of this!
Could you go in to more detail about what it was like for you and why you found it lackluster?
I'm very interested.
I'm very interested.
N,N-DMT was like being transported into another dimension full of fractal elves and spheres etc. Literally it was the stereotype that you read about anywhere. It was incredibly entertaining and incredibly meaningful.
5-MeO-DMT also included teleporting into another dimension, it’s just that the dimension is a big empty void. It’s in no way bad or unenjoyable, but I found it to lack substance. It’s been a really, really long time since I’ve done any of this stuff and my memory might not be perfect.
5-MeO-DMT also included teleporting into another dimension, it’s just that the dimension is a big empty void. It’s in no way bad or unenjoyable, but I found it to lack substance. It’s been a really, really long time since I’ve done any of this stuff and my memory might not be perfect.
> He considered himself a logical rationalist with a self-described “zero tolerance for woo-woo,” so when his search for social anxiety treatment lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element.
I don't really understand how these things are connected.
I don't really understand how these things are connected.
Because currently, psychadelics as a treatment for mental illness and neuroses are on about as firm of ground as cough medicine and chiropractic.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/
That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning. And there is a small cultural movement brewing that seeks to promote them despite our current ignorance. Proponents have made a mad dash to dump them into alt med toolbox to sit alongside acupuncture, cupping, ear candling, essential oils, etc.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really hope these do work as the current standards of care for most mental illness are terribly flawed. Lithium for example is amazing but it has horrible side effects, destroys your organs and for many eventually stops working. Abilify has saved a lot of people's lives but when you're on it, a lot of times you just fucking want to die. It would be great to move beyond SSRIs, mood stabilizers and antipsychotics.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/
That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning. And there is a small cultural movement brewing that seeks to promote them despite our current ignorance. Proponents have made a mad dash to dump them into alt med toolbox to sit alongside acupuncture, cupping, ear candling, essential oils, etc.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really hope these do work as the current standards of care for most mental illness are terribly flawed. Lithium for example is amazing but it has horrible side effects, destroys your organs and for many eventually stops working. Abilify has saved a lot of people's lives but when you're on it, a lot of times you just fucking want to die. It would be great to move beyond SSRIs, mood stabilizers and antipsychotics.
MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03537014 results here: https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/phase-3-trial-of-mdma-the...
Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/
and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174
and already has successful results in a small cohort, as published in JAMA Psychiatry: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/
and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174
and already has successful results in a small cohort, as published in JAMA Psychiatry: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
> MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD:
Cool. I look forward to seeing how it performs in long term practice.
> Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients:
Looks promising, though that is a single study with a small sample size.
> and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder:
Again, compelling but small sample size
> hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression
This approval is based on self reported symptom data from phase III trials and currently is backed up with any extrinsic measurements such as reduced suicide. It's not nothing but it's not a slam dunk yet.
Again, it's all very preliminary though it looks promising. I don't see any evidence to suggest it will become the standard of care soon but it may in the future. We just have to wait and see.
Cool. I look forward to seeing how it performs in long term practice.
> Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients:
Looks promising, though that is a single study with a small sample size.
> and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder:
Again, compelling but small sample size
> hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression
This approval is based on self reported symptom data from phase III trials and currently is backed up with any extrinsic measurements such as reduced suicide. It's not nothing but it's not a slam dunk yet.
Again, it's all very preliminary though it looks promising. I don't see any evidence to suggest it will become the standard of care soon but it may in the future. We just have to wait and see.
"That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning."
It's not just preliminary research.
At the time LSD was banned there were thousands of research papers on it, and I've read that it was the most widely studied psychoactive substance on the planet.
The research that's come out more recently about psychedelics has largely just confirmed what was already known about them, and what has become crystal clear is that they're actually far more effective for some very severe mental illnesses (like treatment-resistant depression and PTSD) than any other medication or therapy in existence.
It's not just preliminary research.
At the time LSD was banned there were thousands of research papers on it, and I've read that it was the most widely studied psychoactive substance on the planet.
The research that's come out more recently about psychedelics has largely just confirmed what was already known about them, and what has become crystal clear is that they're actually far more effective for some very severe mental illnesses (like treatment-resistant depression and PTSD) than any other medication or therapy in existence.
That's fair. I just sometimes get the sense that people equate being "logical" to being very hardheaded and skeptical, only preferring well-established solutions. There is nothing inherently illogical about trying experimental approaches; in many cases if they don't work you can just move on.
This isn't exactly that, though.
This isn't exactly that, though.
I'm currently exploring similar options and I'd also describe myself as a "logical rationalist with zero tolerance for woo-woo”. The thing is: a lot of these psychedelic retreats are wrapped with strong spiritual culture.
I'm torn on this, on one end I noticed retreats in Northern Europe usually have a more "scientific" approach than, let's say, similar retreats in Peru such as Ayahuasca which is rooted in shamanism. I believe both approaches are valuable, but it's clear that a "rational mind" would be out of its element at first.
I'm torn on this, on one end I noticed retreats in Northern Europe usually have a more "scientific" approach than, let's say, similar retreats in Peru such as Ayahuasca which is rooted in shamanism. I believe both approaches are valuable, but it's clear that a "rational mind" would be out of its element at first.
As someone who started out as a die-hard atheist materialist, who mellowed out and became much more open to "spirituality" and religion (when they're constructively positive and tolerant rather than dogmatic, intolerant, close-minded, and violent), I've started to develop an allergic reaction to the recent shamanism craze.
James Oroc, in another article on the same site about underground 5-MeO facilitators[1], summarized some objections which I also share:
"A lot of these practitioners like to take the tail hit on the end of the pipe because they believe if they are in tune with you, they are influencing your 5-MeO-DMT experience. I would say for one, if you've had a true 5-MeO release your experience is almost un-influenceable. Music can affect it and touch can bring you back a little bit, but the whole point is for your consciousness to go and for your body to be safe and undisturbed. I actually think the best practitioner is a licensed nurse who can put you in the recovery position. Any practitioner who would actually mess with your body in any way while your consciousness is out surfing the Akashic field, that's unethical in my opinion. And that's a common theme among all these practitioners- they all like to get really involved with your experience. So that's going to be the next major thing I write about: my ideas on the importance of a neutral container.
"I'm actually a little irritated at the moment, the way the whole movement has sort of been swept up by the New Agers and falling back into this kind of cultism. Because there was a moment when Burning Man and psychedelic culture were actually breaking free of that, and heading into a much more William Gibson punk-anarchist kind of reality. That's still mixed in there, but I feel like we keep getting pulled back into this New Age bullshit. To me, the toad shamans are a classic example of that."
For more examples of the harm some of these "shamanic" approaches can cause see: [2]
[1] - https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitat...
[2] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872
James Oroc, in another article on the same site about underground 5-MeO facilitators[1], summarized some objections which I also share:
"A lot of these practitioners like to take the tail hit on the end of the pipe because they believe if they are in tune with you, they are influencing your 5-MeO-DMT experience. I would say for one, if you've had a true 5-MeO release your experience is almost un-influenceable. Music can affect it and touch can bring you back a little bit, but the whole point is for your consciousness to go and for your body to be safe and undisturbed. I actually think the best practitioner is a licensed nurse who can put you in the recovery position. Any practitioner who would actually mess with your body in any way while your consciousness is out surfing the Akashic field, that's unethical in my opinion. And that's a common theme among all these practitioners- they all like to get really involved with your experience. So that's going to be the next major thing I write about: my ideas on the importance of a neutral container.
"I'm actually a little irritated at the moment, the way the whole movement has sort of been swept up by the New Agers and falling back into this kind of cultism. Because there was a moment when Burning Man and psychedelic culture were actually breaking free of that, and heading into a much more William Gibson punk-anarchist kind of reality. That's still mixed in there, but I feel like we keep getting pulled back into this New Age bullshit. To me, the toad shamans are a classic example of that."
For more examples of the harm some of these "shamanic" approaches can cause see: [2]
[1] - https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitat...
[2] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872
Thanks for that, definitely some interesting insight for someone looking for a radical experience. It can be very confusing to navigate this world, and I'm not sold on most of these spiritual gurus.
I'm very novice on this, I feel like Humanity is missing out on important tools and we're just barely scratching the surface of what's possible to heal the mind.
I'm very novice on this, I feel like Humanity is missing out on important tools and we're just barely scratching the surface of what's possible to heal the mind.
If you're a novice I'd recommend staying away from what is reputed to be the most powerful psychedelic on the planet: 5-MeO-DMT.. at least until you have some more experience with other substances.. though many 5-MeO-DMT users think there's really no way to prepare for it, as nothing else remotely even comes close.
Legal MDMA therapy with a professionally trained and licensed therapist is probably the safest way to dip your toes in.. and, regardless of what you do, integration with a professional therapist you like and trust can be very helpful.
Legal MDMA therapy with a professionally trained and licensed therapist is probably the safest way to dip your toes in.. and, regardless of what you do, integration with a professional therapist you like and trust can be very helpful.
Leave toads alone
5 Meo DMT can be synthesized, but people like to do the “natural” thing.
See “Hamilton’s Pharmacopoeia” s03e01, he interviews Albert Most, the first person to smoke toad venom, and then demonstrates the synthesis in a lab, really entertaining stuff.
I think the episode is not up for free, HBO and Vice have it. You can read about it here tho
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilt...
5 Meo DMT can be synthesized, but people like to do the “natural” thing.
See “Hamilton’s Pharmacopoeia” s03e01, he interviews Albert Most, the first person to smoke toad venom, and then demonstrates the synthesis in a lab, really entertaining stuff.
I think the episode is not up for free, HBO and Vice have it. You can read about it here tho
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilt...
Here's the episode: [1]
I am not convinced Albert Most (the pseudonym of Ken Nelson[2]) was the first to use 5-MeO-DMT.
Most/Nelson published his pamphlet in 1983, while more than 10 years earlier 5-MeO-DMT was apparently used by the Church of the Tree of Life and sold by the Inner Center at Hermosa Beach:[3][4][5][6][7]
"The San Francisco-based Church of the Tree of Life aimed to be to the still-legal psychoactive substances what the Native American Church was for peyote. Incorporated in 1971 by life-extension expert John Mann, it existed largely as a legal entity to protect the use of the drugs mentioned in Legal Highs. If any of these materials became illegal, it was reasoned, a religious-use exemption for Church members could be grandfathered in with the new statutes, much as the peyote exemption had been for American Indians."
"One of the Church's prime sacramental sources was the Inner Center of Hermosa Beach. A popular item in its mail-order catalog was 5-MeO-DMT, a legal variant of the short-acting tryptamine DMT, which produced a brief yet powerful psychedelic trip. The chemical was sprayed onto parsley or oregano leaves, which would then be smoked like marijuana to produce an intense, almost otherworldly state."
According to [7]:
"...a 1973 booklet Legal Highs: A Concise Encyclopedia of Legal Herbs and Chemicals with Psychoactive Properties included 5-MeO-DMT, noting that "the Church of the Tree of Life has declared as its religious sacraments most substances in this book."
"Since the first scientific paper that publicized the fact that the Bufo Alvarius was a walking 5-MeO-DMT factory was not widely circulated until 1967, it is quite possible that smoking toad venom is a completely modern invention. It has also been pointed out to me that our modern civilization is probably the first one which has realized that it is possible to smoke DMT or 5-MeO-DMT - until this time we have either taken it as a snuff, a potion, or, most recently, injecting it. Whatever the case, the Legal Highs booklet in 1973 now listed the Karma Kem Ko. in Yatesboro, PA and Terrestrial Materials in San Francisco, CA as suppliers of 5-MeO-DMT.
"In a 1977 Head magazine article titled "DMT" authors Jeremy Bigwood and Jonathan Ott noted that 5-MeO-DMT "has been sold on the illicit market," they also commented that it was not a controlled substance. Nevertheless, Bigwood and Ott did little to promote the drug, when they quoted a description from M.V. Smith's 1976 book Psychedelic Chemistry that described the effects of 5-MeO-DMT as being similar to "having a large elephant sit on one's head," and they concluded by stating that they felt the drug "has little recreational value." (The exact quote from Smith is, "The effects of 5-methoxy-DMT are unpleasant for most people (smoking it gives me nausea plus the feeling that I'm being sat on by an elephant)" (Smith 1981).)*
"The 1978 High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs remarks that 5-MeO-DMT "has been synthesized and was occasionally available in the California underground market a few years ago. The effects are practically identical to laboratory DMT available in the 1960s."
So human use of 5-MeO-DMT seems to go back to at least the early 1970's, though it's not clear who its first user was. It would be great to interview all the different people and whoever ran the companies mentioned in the above quotes about this.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E
[2] - https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface
[3] - http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-l...
[4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life
[5] - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800...
[6] - http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse
[7] - http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.ht...
I am not convinced Albert Most (the pseudonym of Ken Nelson[2]) was the first to use 5-MeO-DMT.
Most/Nelson published his pamphlet in 1983, while more than 10 years earlier 5-MeO-DMT was apparently used by the Church of the Tree of Life and sold by the Inner Center at Hermosa Beach:[3][4][5][6][7]
"The San Francisco-based Church of the Tree of Life aimed to be to the still-legal psychoactive substances what the Native American Church was for peyote. Incorporated in 1971 by life-extension expert John Mann, it existed largely as a legal entity to protect the use of the drugs mentioned in Legal Highs. If any of these materials became illegal, it was reasoned, a religious-use exemption for Church members could be grandfathered in with the new statutes, much as the peyote exemption had been for American Indians."
"One of the Church's prime sacramental sources was the Inner Center of Hermosa Beach. A popular item in its mail-order catalog was 5-MeO-DMT, a legal variant of the short-acting tryptamine DMT, which produced a brief yet powerful psychedelic trip. The chemical was sprayed onto parsley or oregano leaves, which would then be smoked like marijuana to produce an intense, almost otherworldly state."
According to [7]:
"...a 1973 booklet Legal Highs: A Concise Encyclopedia of Legal Herbs and Chemicals with Psychoactive Properties included 5-MeO-DMT, noting that "the Church of the Tree of Life has declared as its religious sacraments most substances in this book."
"Since the first scientific paper that publicized the fact that the Bufo Alvarius was a walking 5-MeO-DMT factory was not widely circulated until 1967, it is quite possible that smoking toad venom is a completely modern invention. It has also been pointed out to me that our modern civilization is probably the first one which has realized that it is possible to smoke DMT or 5-MeO-DMT - until this time we have either taken it as a snuff, a potion, or, most recently, injecting it. Whatever the case, the Legal Highs booklet in 1973 now listed the Karma Kem Ko. in Yatesboro, PA and Terrestrial Materials in San Francisco, CA as suppliers of 5-MeO-DMT.
"In a 1977 Head magazine article titled "DMT" authors Jeremy Bigwood and Jonathan Ott noted that 5-MeO-DMT "has been sold on the illicit market," they also commented that it was not a controlled substance. Nevertheless, Bigwood and Ott did little to promote the drug, when they quoted a description from M.V. Smith's 1976 book Psychedelic Chemistry that described the effects of 5-MeO-DMT as being similar to "having a large elephant sit on one's head," and they concluded by stating that they felt the drug "has little recreational value." (The exact quote from Smith is, "The effects of 5-methoxy-DMT are unpleasant for most people (smoking it gives me nausea plus the feeling that I'm being sat on by an elephant)" (Smith 1981).)*
"The 1978 High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs remarks that 5-MeO-DMT "has been synthesized and was occasionally available in the California underground market a few years ago. The effects are practically identical to laboratory DMT available in the 1960s."
So human use of 5-MeO-DMT seems to go back to at least the early 1970's, though it's not clear who its first user was. It would be great to interview all the different people and whoever ran the companies mentioned in the above quotes about this.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E
[2] - https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface
[3] - http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-l...
[4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life
[5] - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800...
[6] - http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse
[7] - http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.ht...
Psychedelics have been quite beneficial for my social anxiety as well.
I once took mdma, went to a random toastmasters meetup solo, and gave two presentations. Twas effective in reframing my relationship to social anxiety to a non-trivial degree.
I once took mdma, went to a random toastmasters meetup solo, and gave two presentations. Twas effective in reframing my relationship to social anxiety to a non-trivial degree.
Were you scheduled to give the presentations?
No, this was my 1st toastmasters session & was a drop-in. I gave 2 impromptu session speeches.
How long was the effect for?
I'm not sure as this single event was simply a strong - even pivotal - step in the right direction.
I now have remarkably low social anxiety.
Objectively: I approach unfamiliar groups, women etc. in ways that baffle others I'm with.
I now have remarkably low social anxiety.
Objectively: I approach unfamiliar groups, women etc. in ways that baffle others I'm with.
You went to a Toastmaster’s meetup on MDMA?
That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety. Recreational drugs obviously produce short-lived mental changes.
That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety. Recreational drugs obviously produce short-lived mental changes.
"That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety."
It is comparable, actually. There is something in psychology called "exposure therapy"[1] where one is exposed to whatever causes your anxiety or phobia (sometimes with positive reinforcement) and one gradually gets used to it until you're no longer afraid of it.
Similarly, I've heard MDMA therapists theorize that using MDMA to treat depression, PTSD, and other mental issues where there might be repressed or uncomfortable experiences that one couldn't face in ordinary waking consciousness allows the patient to be comfortable with them while under the effects of the medicine, and this allows them to not be as reactive to that same stimulus even after the medication wears off.
By the way, speaking of social anxiety, here's an interesting video of someone with asperger's and how a single MDMA experience helped him: [2]
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_therapy
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJgWKl_vss0
It is comparable, actually. There is something in psychology called "exposure therapy"[1] where one is exposed to whatever causes your anxiety or phobia (sometimes with positive reinforcement) and one gradually gets used to it until you're no longer afraid of it.
Similarly, I've heard MDMA therapists theorize that using MDMA to treat depression, PTSD, and other mental issues where there might be repressed or uncomfortable experiences that one couldn't face in ordinary waking consciousness allows the patient to be comfortable with them while under the effects of the medicine, and this allows them to not be as reactive to that same stimulus even after the medication wears off.
By the way, speaking of social anxiety, here's an interesting video of someone with asperger's and how a single MDMA experience helped him: [2]
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_therapy
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJgWKl_vss0
Few people are willing to put in the long hard work required for many things including mental health. Instant gratification and quick fixes are very popular, and I'm not convinced of it being a long term solution.
It's like being challenged to climb a mountain but we just take a helicopter up instead. Sure we get to the top and see the view, but we still didn't learn to climb it. The unshakable personal growth is missed, and there will be many future mountains with the same challenges.
Do the real work, find a good psychologist, build a relationship, and the healing can be life changing on levels you only dream of. It took me about 3 years(!) before I finally got brave enough to truly open up to my therapist which finally lead to identifying that I have OCD. That has been an enormous mental burden lifted from my psyche. The journey was well worth the milestone, and it's just the start of the work.
It's like being challenged to climb a mountain but we just take a helicopter up instead. Sure we get to the top and see the view, but we still didn't learn to climb it. The unshakable personal growth is missed, and there will be many future mountains with the same challenges.
Do the real work, find a good psychologist, build a relationship, and the healing can be life changing on levels you only dream of. It took me about 3 years(!) before I finally got brave enough to truly open up to my therapist which finally lead to identifying that I have OCD. That has been an enormous mental burden lifted from my psyche. The journey was well worth the milestone, and it's just the start of the work.
I think your mountain analogy is accurate, but I also think it means that these temporary, breakthrough experiences still have their place. Imagine thinking that you could never, ever get to the top of the mountain. There's no point even trying to work up to it. Then someone takes you up in a helicopter. You see the path from above. You see other people taking it. You see the view. Then, you're dropped back into the valley. That experience gives some people a sense of hope and changes their relationship with the work.
You spent three years trying to get someone else to first understand you and then use him as a go-between for "you" to better understand yourself. That's like debugging a program running on your own computer by using a 3rd person that's completely unfamiliar with the program as your only input/output.
Extremely inefficient.
Psychedelics blow the door to the mind-psyche apart and place you right at the center of the cyclone (to paraphrase John Lilly). For a smart, introspective/reflective individual there is nothing more direct and arguably better: No filters, no go-betweens, an aspect of one's self is placed inside one's own mind, free to observe and experience.
Extremely inefficient.
Psychedelics blow the door to the mind-psyche apart and place you right at the center of the cyclone (to paraphrase John Lilly). For a smart, introspective/reflective individual there is nothing more direct and arguably better: No filters, no go-betweens, an aspect of one's self is placed inside one's own mind, free to observe and experience.
Agree.
Also: there's a 'feeling is understanding' component to psychs that can be unattainably difficult to replicate without this tool.
Ultimately there's nuance some other commenters here seem to overlook: once you have a taste of this guiding understanding, it remains up to the individual to put in the work - psychological, physical etc. - to reach & maintain their desired state.
Also: there's a 'feeling is understanding' component to psychs that can be unattainably difficult to replicate without this tool.
Ultimately there's nuance some other commenters here seem to overlook: once you have a taste of this guiding understanding, it remains up to the individual to put in the work - psychological, physical etc. - to reach & maintain their desired state.
[deleted]
While I 110% recommend trying to work with a good therapist you like and trust, the problem with some mental illnesses (like depression) is that putting in the hard work is just that: hard... very hard.. and seriously depressed people rarely have the energy and motivation to do the work. In severe cases they struggle to even get out of bed, will miss therapy appointments, not follow through on therapist recommendations, etc.
This is where medication can sometimes break through ingrained bad habits and attitudes, and make looking squarely at and dealing with our problems possible. Psychedelics (when combined with therapy) seem to be very effective at this.. more effective than any other medicines, for some conditions.
It's not a panacea, and it's not guaranteed to help everyone -- nothing is. However, it has helped many people when nothing else has.
Read about the studies on severe, treatment-resistant depression or treatment-resistant PTSD. Many of these people have tried literally dozens of medications and therapies, including electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) and nothing's worked for them, leading some of them to suicide attempts. One to three therapy sessions with MDMA has moved them to a place where many of them no longer even register as having PTSD or depression.
Though not everyone is helped, the fact that some of these people are is amazing, and that's why MDMA therapy is being approved by the FDA despite MDMA being a schedule 1 drug.
This is where medication can sometimes break through ingrained bad habits and attitudes, and make looking squarely at and dealing with our problems possible. Psychedelics (when combined with therapy) seem to be very effective at this.. more effective than any other medicines, for some conditions.
It's not a panacea, and it's not guaranteed to help everyone -- nothing is. However, it has helped many people when nothing else has.
Read about the studies on severe, treatment-resistant depression or treatment-resistant PTSD. Many of these people have tried literally dozens of medications and therapies, including electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) and nothing's worked for them, leading some of them to suicide attempts. One to three therapy sessions with MDMA has moved them to a place where many of them no longer even register as having PTSD or depression.
Though not everyone is helped, the fact that some of these people are is amazing, and that's why MDMA therapy is being approved by the FDA despite MDMA being a schedule 1 drug.
Very true. I apologize if I came across as insensitive to those unique struggles. Agreed, there seems to be tremendous potential of combining things like MDMA with psychotherapy (and it might not be advisable to self-medicate).
When he says reframing his relashionship with soxial anxiety, I don't think he just means being drunk at the time.
Social anxiety is an opinion you have of yourself. That can change. Or at least, you can decide how you feel about it.
Social anxiety is an opinion you have of yourself. That can change. Or at least, you can decide how you feel about it.
>That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety
Did I say I 'treated my social anxiety'? No.
This event & exposure was a major step forward for me - I had never felt less socially self-conscious & more self-love while presenting.
My outlook / frame on social anxiety was never the same.
I find your comment interestingly dismissive & defensive. Any reason why this might be?
Did I say I 'treated my social anxiety'? No.
This event & exposure was a major step forward for me - I had never felt less socially self-conscious & more self-love while presenting.
My outlook / frame on social anxiety was never the same.
I find your comment interestingly dismissive & defensive. Any reason why this might be?
Anyone know what the nuclear option would be for ADHD?
I can't take an article seriously when it's published under a pseudonym, by the website itself.
It could just be marketing for all I know. And it most likely is.
It could just be marketing for all I know. And it most likely is.
I think this is a fair criticism. Delivered perhaps a bit acerbically.
As somebody who struggles with tact lately, would you mind sharing a kinder way to phrase the above while also being factually correct?
I used to be good with people, but somewhere along the way I became a jerk. Any tools in my tool belt would be appreciated.
I used to be good with people, but somewhere along the way I became a jerk. Any tools in my tool belt would be appreciated.
Put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking to, and try to understand how you are coming across. How would you feel if you were them?
Psychedelic posts get a free pass from the usual criticisms on HN for some reason.
This is a blatant promotional article for a mystical cure associated with a sponsor of the website it’s posted on (the article admits they referred him to the retreat center, a subtle invitation to other readers to also reach out to get similar referrals to this miracle cure).
Replace psychedelics with any other substance and the comment section would be full of criticisms about this being an n=1 anecdote and the obvious conflict of interest with the source.
This is a blatant promotional article for a mystical cure associated with a sponsor of the website it’s posted on (the article admits they referred him to the retreat center, a subtle invitation to other readers to also reach out to get similar referrals to this miracle cure).
Replace psychedelics with any other substance and the comment section would be full of criticisms about this being an n=1 anecdote and the obvious conflict of interest with the source.
If you find yourself making Skype calls to a Mexican psycho-spiritual treatment center to discuss your condition, and then go on a trip there, you do not have "debilitating social anxiety".
"debilitating social anxiety" is when you pace through your living room for 15 minutes to work up the courage to make a call to order pizza. And then afterwards, ruminate on every awkward detail in that one minute conversation, forever.
"debilitating social anxiety" is when you pace through your living room for 15 minutes to work up the courage to make a call to order pizza. And then afterwards, ruminate on every awkward detail in that one minute conversation, forever.
People have good days and bad days
[deleted]
I don’t think it helps to gatekeep like this.
I can order a pizza and travel to foreign countries alone, but I have nearly been fired for my inability to initiate friendly conversation with leaders of other teams at work. I have agonized for 30 minutes to write three sentences for friendly ‘let’s have coffee’ emails. Maybe that’s not debilitating per se, but with the right timing it could have destroyed my career, ability to afford living expenses etc.
I can order a pizza and travel to foreign countries alone, but I have nearly been fired for my inability to initiate friendly conversation with leaders of other teams at work. I have agonized for 30 minutes to write three sentences for friendly ‘let’s have coffee’ emails. Maybe that’s not debilitating per se, but with the right timing it could have destroyed my career, ability to afford living expenses etc.
"debilitating social anxiety" is when you feel that way.
They describe having anxiety attacks on the way to work. That sounds serious by any reasonable definition. Who made you the arbiter of social anxiety?
Jeez. Be careful with this stuff. It could also destroy your life.
Seems like you mean well, but you're all shadowbanned.
Can't downvote someone calling for safety, as much as I love the idea of psychedelics helping people.
So could a Covid vaccination
- informing yourself as much as possible (and then some) about this substance[1][2]
- not doing this alone
- reading and following the guidelines of The Conclave[3]
- very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to[4][5][6][7]
[1] - https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt
[2] - https://erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml
[3] - https://theconclave.info/
[4] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872
[5] - https://entheonation.com/blog/death-fraud-octavio-rettig-ger...
[6] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSN4p1cLrM
[7] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQctOMSmBuk