A majority of young adults in the U.S. live with their parents(pewresearch.org)
pewresearch.org
A majority of young adults in the U.S. live with their parents
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/04/a-majority-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-live-with-their-parents-for-the-first-time-since-the-great-depression/
78 comments
Kids, stay at home, save money, use your parents insurance until 26, save money. Car insurance is high until 25, except if you’re on your parents policy. I bought my first flat at 29 after a string of bad decisions in my youth. The best thing you can do is set up an investment account early and let the savings compound.
This is a respectable strategy, but in a more prosperous society we would expect people to be able to have stuff and establish themselves as adults early.
We live in an age of literal miracles. Thinking rocks, floating metal, what amounts to telepathy, machines roaming the countryside that dwarf giants, bodies being reshaped and redrawn, pandemics being fought back after a year or two. There really need to be some hard questions asked about why exactly a kid can't expect to move in to their own a home at 20.
I'm not saying there are easy answers. Maybe the world is just so complicated that a normal 20 year old can't make a meaningful contribution any more. But it is worth at least talking form time to time about why it is so hard to for young people to be independent. What exactly is the deal they are being offered here?
We live in an age of literal miracles. Thinking rocks, floating metal, what amounts to telepathy, machines roaming the countryside that dwarf giants, bodies being reshaped and redrawn, pandemics being fought back after a year or two. There really need to be some hard questions asked about why exactly a kid can't expect to move in to their own a home at 20.
I'm not saying there are easy answers. Maybe the world is just so complicated that a normal 20 year old can't make a meaningful contribution any more. But it is worth at least talking form time to time about why it is so hard to for young people to be independent. What exactly is the deal they are being offered here?
> Thinking rocks, floating metal, what amounts to telepathy, machines roaming the countryside that dwarf giants, bodies being reshaped and redrawn.
?? Please elaborate.
Ask foreigners: They don't have parent's insurance or homes, yet are expected to survive without being able to take jobs that are reserved for Americans only. Americans have it easy.
?? Please elaborate.
Ask foreigners: They don't have parent's insurance or homes, yet are expected to survive without being able to take jobs that are reserved for Americans only. Americans have it easy.
A permanent resident immigrant to the US is expected to have savings or a family network that can support them. The days of showing up to the border with the close on your back and $50 in your pocket are long over.
And exactly what jobs are reserved for Americans? Only ones I know of are DoD or security clearance.
And exactly what jobs are reserved for Americans? Only ones I know of are DoD or security clearance.
The secret of companies nowadays is that discrimination occurs behind the curtains. When you are applying for jobs they will ask you "do you require sponsorship now or in the future?".
Although it is illegal to discriminate based on country of origin, companies do it all the time - at the least, they will outright reject a candidate based on this criteria and at the worst, they string them along on years of abuse/slavery through an H1B and lower salary compared to Americans.
Nobody wants to do extra paper-work and run through the hassle (laws) of hiring a foreigner if the risk is higher than hiring an American - if they do, they better get a better deal.
Ask HR, STEM international students, someone on H1B. There are lucky ones, especially CS majors, but the majority is abused by the system due to the power imbalance. This is unknown to the average American, you don't know how much the balance has been tilted in your favor from the start.
> The days of showing up to the border with the close on your back and $50 in your pocket are long over.
You seem blind to the realities. Americans complain too much because they can, millions of people are just happy to have a way to survive. I did not even touch upon illegal immigrants who live in the shadows/fear, working quietly for a better future...
Although it is illegal to discriminate based on country of origin, companies do it all the time - at the least, they will outright reject a candidate based on this criteria and at the worst, they string them along on years of abuse/slavery through an H1B and lower salary compared to Americans.
Nobody wants to do extra paper-work and run through the hassle (laws) of hiring a foreigner if the risk is higher than hiring an American - if they do, they better get a better deal.
Ask HR, STEM international students, someone on H1B. There are lucky ones, especially CS majors, but the majority is abused by the system due to the power imbalance. This is unknown to the average American, you don't know how much the balance has been tilted in your favor from the start.
> The days of showing up to the border with the close on your back and $50 in your pocket are long over.
You seem blind to the realities. Americans complain too much because they can, millions of people are just happy to have a way to survive. I did not even touch upon illegal immigrants who live in the shadows/fear, working quietly for a better future...
Country of origin and immigration status are not the same thing. A company cannot discriminate based on origin. Immigration status is something else. Companies are legally required to ask if you are eligible to work in the country. If your skills are in demand enough they can pursue a visa for you. If not, you’re just another cog in the machine. They are free to find someone who can meet the requirement.
I bet HR prepared the legal language to avoid discrimination charges. Even if the immigration status is legal, Americans have an unfair advantage just because they were born in the right place. Americans live in a privileged bubble, especially the tech sector.
Remember tech wanted to increase the quota for H1Bs? It was a pro-immigration marketing stunt - because it is cheaper for them to abuse more workers.
Progressives/liberals fight for minorities' rights, but who cares about immigrants, even if they are the backbone of your economy? Tech doesn't care, they profit from it. Tech (indeed, American enterprise) has always been a marketing show for the rich.
Side note: Elon's hack in to the US as a Canadian > Aware it would be easier to enter the United States from Canada,[23] Musk applied for a Canadian passport through his Canadian-born mother. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
Remember tech wanted to increase the quota for H1Bs? It was a pro-immigration marketing stunt - because it is cheaper for them to abuse more workers.
Progressives/liberals fight for minorities' rights, but who cares about immigrants, even if they are the backbone of your economy? Tech doesn't care, they profit from it. Tech (indeed, American enterprise) has always been a marketing show for the rich.
Side note: Elon's hack in to the US as a Canadian > Aware it would be easier to enter the United States from Canada,[23] Musk applied for a Canadian passport through his Canadian-born mother. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
And why should Americans care about the plight of others?
Tired of this argument tbh. Americans should care about themselves first and foremost.
Because Americans have a warped view of the world and this affects the policies you vote for, actually hurting rather than helping yourself due to a lack of perspective and bubble mentality.
https://medium.com/p/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf809581...
Btw, I don't blame Americans on this, they might actually be the victim of their own creation - the tech industry has been brainwashing the American public for the last decade.
Note: Your policies also affect the entire world due to your power stance internationally.
https://medium.com/p/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf809581...
Btw, I don't blame Americans on this, they might actually be the victim of their own creation - the tech industry has been brainwashing the American public for the last decade.
Note: Your policies also affect the entire world due to your power stance internationally.
I was thinking computers, cargo ships, SMS, cranes, mRNA vaccines and the COVID respectively.
They're all pretty mundane because humans can get used to anything given a few months. But the things we have these days are all crazy.
They're all pretty mundane because humans can get used to anything given a few months. But the things we have these days are all crazy.
Living without any expectations is the healthy way to live. How to not have expectations, take things as they are, and understand that it's false that they "should" be in any other way.
> There really need to be some hard questions asked about why exactly a kid can't expect to move in to their own a home at 20.
You can, just not a nice one in a major city. Given the choice between my parent's house and a small condo, house is a lot nicer.
Given the options, it will never be the case that a 20 year old can have the same standard of living as what they grew up with right away. You choices are to lower your standard of living as you just aren't as valuable economically or stay put.
You can, just not a nice one in a major city. Given the choice between my parent's house and a small condo, house is a lot nicer.
Given the options, it will never be the case that a 20 year old can have the same standard of living as what they grew up with right away. You choices are to lower your standard of living as you just aren't as valuable economically or stay put.
Also, older generations lived through some of the most prosperous times in American history. Those conditions no longer exist, where you could have a comfortable middle class existence on a single income.
But why don't they exist anymore? Everything I read indicates that our productivity increase is the same since 1950. Surely, there must be some explanation...
A complicated issue, but here is a hypothesis: a shift in culture.
People are not valued anymore, the current generation only seeks "quick money".
Ex: 4HWW, Robinhood, FIRE, crypto, social media, (even startups) etc. promote this mentality and are either responses or symptoms of this shift.
https://m-g-h.medium.com/why-we-are-dispensable-7a577eba4f3e
People are not valued anymore, the current generation only seeks "quick money".
Ex: 4HWW, Robinhood, FIRE, crypto, social media, (even startups) etc. promote this mentality and are either responses or symptoms of this shift.
https://m-g-h.medium.com/why-we-are-dispensable-7a577eba4f3e
Globalization, a decline in unions and collective bargaining power, inflation of healthcare, real estate, and education costs, etc.
Middle class America had it good after world war 2 until capital and the rest of the world caught up.
Middle class America had it good after world war 2 until capital and the rest of the world caught up.
Decline in unions is quite important. A lot more of the profits accumulate to capital than to labor these days.
A lot of it is probably just the fact that most households are dual income. You can probably live the same level of life as in the 1950s, but without trips to Mexico, two cars, twice as much house as before, etc, we wouldn't consider that middle class anymore.
The standard of middle class consumption has soared.
The standard of middle class consumption has soared.
You shouldn’t save money over looking after your mental health. Your own space as an adult is important.
Constantly splurging on instant gratifications does the opposite of help one's mental health.
Seems like he was referring to moving out and spending money on rent, from what I can gather
[deleted]
Who's talking about constantly splurging?
Its the US. Lots of parents have mental health issues. Nothing good happens to kids who stick around in unhealthy environments. Which is to say the path that works depends a lot on the type of people you are around.
Not everyone's parents are good role models [define "good" as you wish], or actually want you there, &c.
That should be determined on an individual basis and living situation.
Not everybody has parents that they can tolerate.
Not everybody has parents that they can tolerate.
People have usually lived with/near their extended families for most of their lives for thousands of years, and currently in most cultures. It isn't a proof or cause of mental illness.
It's a failure of reproduction of the middle class, though. When you're born rich, it's easy to die rich (without being adventurously stupid), when you're born poor, it's effortless to die poor. The middle-class is the class that has to rebuild every generation. We've allowed so much corruption and rent-seeking that it's not happening anymore.
It's a failure of reproduction of the middle class, though. When you're born rich, it's easy to die rich (without being adventurously stupid), when you're born poor, it's effortless to die poor. The middle-class is the class that has to rebuild every generation. We've allowed so much corruption and rent-seeking that it's not happening anymore.
Moving out caused my mental health to deteriorate. The meaninglessness of living alone and wasting my life working for Big Corp made me suicidal. I was hospitalized in a psych ward for a week. I tried half a dozen antidepressants. Nothing helped. Now I've moved back with my parents and I'm trying to turn my own, meaningful (to me) projects into a business. I don't know if things will work out financially, but I already feel much better than I did. Regardless, I don't believe I'll ever feel the way I once did about this world.
[deleted]
You are not alone and this is not unusual. I don't think the Western world has quite figured out how to transition people to a successful adulthood. Or if that is something we are supposed to do cold turkey. It takes a village right?
My mental health deteriorated too. Looking back I should have built a support network and gone to therapy.. a lot of therapy. This all hit me at the end of college and in grad school. So I was broke too.
I didn't really have family to fall back on either, I was lonely and felt alone.
I'm still working on it, despite marriage/kids etc... I actually wish I had capitalized on my alone time in retrospect. Hence therapy!
>Regardless, I don't believe I'll ever feel the way I once did about this world.
Do you want to feel that way? What you have now is perspective and you know more about yourself.
My mental health deteriorated too. Looking back I should have built a support network and gone to therapy.. a lot of therapy. This all hit me at the end of college and in grad school. So I was broke too.
I didn't really have family to fall back on either, I was lonely and felt alone.
I'm still working on it, despite marriage/kids etc... I actually wish I had capitalized on my alone time in retrospect. Hence therapy!
>Regardless, I don't believe I'll ever feel the way I once did about this world.
Do you want to feel that way? What you have now is perspective and you know more about yourself.
> I don't think the Western world has quite figured out how to transition people to a successful adulthood.
That's what college is for.
That's what college is for.
Now, this is a real boomer take.
The issue isn't that young people don't want to move into their own place. It's that they literally can't without ruining themselves. For me, moving out of my parents place would mean moving to a tiny shithole that costs over 800CAD and is situated in the worst neighborhood of my city. It would be worse for my mental health (which is already hampered because I find modern cities unbearable) but also an idiotic financial decision.
Point is, all I want is to move away and live in solitude and independence but I think the government would probably find me even if I moved into a cabin in the woods in Yukon.
The issue isn't that young people don't want to move into their own place. It's that they literally can't without ruining themselves. For me, moving out of my parents place would mean moving to a tiny shithole that costs over 800CAD and is situated in the worst neighborhood of my city. It would be worse for my mental health (which is already hampered because I find modern cities unbearable) but also an idiotic financial decision.
Point is, all I want is to move away and live in solitude and independence but I think the government would probably find me even if I moved into a cabin in the woods in Yukon.
There's also benefits to establishing independence early and reaping the compounded rewards of a lifetime of confidence built through bearing burden(s) of responsibility.
Yes and no, but financially speaking mostly no. If you can save even a small but reasonable amount of money from say age 21 to 25 your retirement investing will be completed. Compound interest and all that good stuff.
There's no guarantee that the stock market will continue to be a free ride of growth above and beyond inflation, especially given the ease of access today compared to the 90s and earlier. Capital flows in to public markets are unparalleled these days.
Depends on a number of factors. Each person is different goes thru different experiences, it's not "just do that".
From a financial standpoint, I definitely agree. On the other hand, that perspective can easily become a crutch especially if it is normalized. There's also the risk of creating more generations of even less capable adults than the ones whom already exist. Some already self-aware individuals could make proper use of their parent's abode into early adulthood, but there's also others who to some extent actually need life to give them at least a small kick in the pants so they wake up and get their shit together. People say that remote work isn't for everyone, thus we shouldn't also pretend like "just live at home, bruh" is the right thing for the vast majority.
In some countries, it's completely normal to live with your parents. Do you really think that they have less independent adults than Americans?
c0ckm4st3r(1)
I don't know why the poor's keep complaining, everything is great.
Median income statistic as proof
I am very smart.
Median income statistic as proof
I am very smart.
It's funny how different the connotations of this are in the US compared to, I think, many countries in the rest of the world. I just spent a few months in Brazil and my impression was that it's common/normal for people to live with their parents longer. I believe it's similar in Italy? For men, at least. Am I wrong about those two? For the non-US HN crowd, what about your country?
It's not that it's different than the rest of the world, it's that in the past the US was wealthy enough that this wasn't a typical thing to do. The news here is more that the US is in decline, and it's no longer standard for young people to be able to afford to live on their own.
The US is in decline for some of us.
The wealthy folks are raking it in like never before.
The wealthy folks are raking it in like never before.
Exactly. I live in an East Asian country and my impression is that generally speaking young people who live at home would prefer to live alone but don't because of finances and filial piety.
It's less that the US has become less wealthy, and more that we have manufactured a housing crisis by refusing to allow people to construct housing to keep up with demand.
we have manufactured a housing crisis
I agree there's a housing crisis, not sure how we arrived at one, "manufactured" or whatever.
Just one data point, personal.
As a young professional I bought a fairly new house in the Portland Oregon suburbs in the 1980s for about 2x my salary.
Today my daughter, a young professional, would have to pay closer to 8x her salary (if you believe Zillow) to buy that very same "starter" house, which is now 35 years older.
Rents have commensurately increased. To quote Jimmy McMillan: "the rent is too damn high".
I agree there's a housing crisis, not sure how we arrived at one, "manufactured" or whatever.
Just one data point, personal.
As a young professional I bought a fairly new house in the Portland Oregon suburbs in the 1980s for about 2x my salary.
Today my daughter, a young professional, would have to pay closer to 8x her salary (if you believe Zillow) to buy that very same "starter" house, which is now 35 years older.
Rents have commensurately increased. To quote Jimmy McMillan: "the rent is too damn high".
"Manufactured" as in "this is a problem we created through bad policy".
It is far harder to build new housing in the US than it used to be, which drives up prices for existing homes, which benefits the local homeowners (voters!) at the expense of everyone else.
It is far harder to build new housing in the US than it used to be, which drives up prices for existing homes, which benefits the local homeowners (voters!) at the expense of everyone else.
The population of Portland has more than doubled. Interest rates are at 0 and Portland has a popularity increase over 35 years making properties more desirable.
Portland is trying not to ruin what made it unique with density everywhere and they are not making new land so all of that equals higher prices.
Once interest rates go back to 7% and people start leaving you will see prices go down.
Salem or Gresham would be a cheaper city to move to.
Portland is trying not to ruin what made it unique with density everywhere and they are not making new land so all of that equals higher prices.
Once interest rates go back to 7% and people start leaving you will see prices go down.
Salem or Gresham would be a cheaper city to move to.
Interest rates don't matter to first time buyers trying to get on the housing ladder.
When housing is 8x income and the bank won't lend you more than 5x income you need to start with a 40% equity to get anywhere
When housing is 8x income and the bank won't lend you more than 5x income you need to start with a 40% equity to get anywhere
> I agree there's a housing crisis, not sure how we arrived at one, "manufactured" or whatever.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO
I totally agree that we've manufactured a housing crisis, but having driven around in the rural midwest, the US is obviously less wealthy than it used to be. There are abandoned structures littering the country in what used to be thriving towns.
We have on average gotten more wealthy, but the p50 and p20 brackets definitely are worse off than in past generations and worse off than in comparable post-industrial economies.
We have on average gotten more wealthy, but the p50 and p20 brackets definitely are worse off than in past generations and worse off than in comparable post-industrial economies.
To be fair, the USA being in decline isn't necessarily causation for young people not being able to afford to live on the their own.
The key issue is the cost of housing; which the USA is reluctant and resolve. Student loan debt also factors in to this situation.
Are those driving the USA's decline? Or simply symptoms of a systems dedicated more to Wall Street and less to Main Street?
The key issue is the cost of housing; which the USA is reluctant and resolve. Student loan debt also factors in to this situation.
Are those driving the USA's decline? Or simply symptoms of a systems dedicated more to Wall Street and less to Main Street?
That's normal for most latin cultures. The max normally accepted age varies of course but it's quite higher than in other cultures.
Even the richest Indian, Mukesh Ambani stay with his mother, wife and kids.
>> What is most striking though is that contrary to popular perception, more of the poorest Indians live in nuclear families than the affluent do
Quoted from this . https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54053091
>> What is most striking though is that contrary to popular perception, more of the poorest Indians live in nuclear families than the affluent do
Quoted from this . https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54053091
> unmarried students who reside in on-campus college dorms are counted as living in their family home
Eh? So if more people went to college it would show up as more living at home?
Eh? So if more people went to college it would show up as more living at home?
Partly because dorms will kick you out over longer breaks (winter and summer) and will expect you to leave for shorter breaks (thanksgiving, if you’re somewhere with a weeklong break and spring break).
Over winter break I had to turn in my room key to the desk and my access card was deactivated. Those who paid to stay thru winter had to move to a specified dorm.
So yeah, you still have to depend on someone else for housing while in the dorms, at least how I experienced it.
Over winter break I had to turn in my room key to the desk and my access card was deactivated. Those who paid to stay thru winter had to move to a specified dorm.
So yeah, you still have to depend on someone else for housing while in the dorms, at least how I experienced it.
This doesn't seem like a big deal. The group that would typically be out of college (25-29) only increased from 26% to 28%.
> The coronavirus outbreak has pushed millions of Americans, especially young adults, to move in with family members.
This statement isn't accurate. What triggered this movement was the economic fallout from the government's reaction to the Covid 19 pandemic; not the pandemic itself.
Furthermore, it would be hekpful to understand how many of these households were eventually victims (?) of Covid 19. That is, risk adverse individual moves home. Carries on with usual lifestyle. Eventually gets sick, infects others at home, and so on.
This statement isn't accurate. What triggered this movement was the economic fallout from the government's reaction to the Covid 19 pandemic; not the pandemic itself.
Furthermore, it would be hekpful to understand how many of these households were eventually victims (?) of Covid 19. That is, risk adverse individual moves home. Carries on with usual lifestyle. Eventually gets sick, infects others at home, and so on.
Note to self: Never point out newspeak on HN. Instead just repeat the narrative and let deception persist.
The sense of martyrdom around here is just too much, and this comment exemplifies it.
I'm cautiously curious about how you'd interpret this data: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/upshot/pandemic-economy-g...
It seems pretty straightforward to me that a massive pandemic is going to hurt the economy, regardless of government action. I'm sure there will be other data points to look at in the future for what the consequences of various responses were (e.g. Sweden vs neighbors/etc?).
It seems pretty straightforward to me that a massive pandemic is going to hurt the economy, regardless of government action. I'm sure there will be other data points to look at in the future for what the consequences of various responses were (e.g. Sweden vs neighbors/etc?).
I'm hoping there will be a big housing boom this decade. I think with remote work, and a continued backlash against NIMBYism, it's not unlikely.
That'll keep the economy driving forward, plus create a lot of nice blue collar jobs for people. Plus, it could drive a baby boom.
That'll keep the economy driving forward, plus create a lot of nice blue collar jobs for people. Plus, it could drive a baby boom.
What young adults are waiting for is a housing bust, a generational dip, a once in a lifetime buying opportunity to get on the housing ladder at a fair price.
Same thing
Yeah it's unlikely to happen though. The conditions of this housing boom are nothing like the last one. Mortgage requirements much more stringent.
Additionally, monetary policy in the US is responsible for inflating assets and they are showing no intention to raise rates in any significant way. Maybe prices cool off a bit when they eventually start to raise rates but I expect there will be no bust. These prices are the new normal.
Additionally, monetary policy in the US is responsible for inflating assets and they are showing no intention to raise rates in any significant way. Maybe prices cool off a bit when they eventually start to raise rates but I expect there will be no bust. These prices are the new normal.
I think it's hard for most American homeowners to make a connection between their rising home equity, and their children being dependent on them for basic needs past an "acceptable" age.
It would be interesting to see how the numbers compare this year.
I am Canadian, but I do this and I have a bunch of friends that do this, even with well paying jobs.
You can save and invest, cut your insurance costs for vehicles, use their health insurance, not have to buy all the other appliances that people tend to, etc.
You can compress this chart by literally decades in a few years.
https://fourpillarfreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/sav...
Yes, you need to launch sometime, but why not wait and do it in a financial Saturn V?
You can save and invest, cut your insurance costs for vehicles, use their health insurance, not have to buy all the other appliances that people tend to, etc.
You can compress this chart by literally decades in a few years.
https://fourpillarfreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/sav...
Yes, you need to launch sometime, but why not wait and do it in a financial Saturn V?