Lead contamination in hunted meat(ehn.org)
ehn.org
Lead contamination in hunted meat
https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html
95 comments
> Lead induces less damage to the firearm
Over here when lead was prohibited for hunting waterfowl, there was lots of heated debating about the issue. People hunting with grandpa's old shotgun had to either get a new gun for use with steel, or use the hideously expensive Bismuth shells. Seems most active hunters switched to newer guns. I haven't heard anything about modern guns wearing out prematurely due to shooting steel.
> To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot ) and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an individual will need to purchase different firearms. For instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells.
Or, you know, if your gun can't take those spiffier shells, slightly limit your shot distances?
> Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately fatal wounds.
IIRC there was some research from Denmark suggesting the opposite, namely that the significantly harder steel pellets would have a higher probability of punching through bone and hit vital organs rather than deforming and lodging in the bone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as lead bullets leading to more wounded game.
I think this is a relatively newer development, and it seems every year manufacturers are introducing newer copper bullets with more ductile alloys, precut grooves and whatnot to make them expand faster. I don't think it will take long, to the extent it hasn't already happened, that copper bullets will be good enough for the vast majority of usage. Sure, if you want to hit a rodent at 800m or some other extreme form of long-range marksmanship, you really want the density of lead, but most rifle hunting is done at significantly shorter ranges.
Over here when lead was prohibited for hunting waterfowl, there was lots of heated debating about the issue. People hunting with grandpa's old shotgun had to either get a new gun for use with steel, or use the hideously expensive Bismuth shells. Seems most active hunters switched to newer guns. I haven't heard anything about modern guns wearing out prematurely due to shooting steel.
> To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot ) and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an individual will need to purchase different firearms. For instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells.
Or, you know, if your gun can't take those spiffier shells, slightly limit your shot distances?
> Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately fatal wounds.
IIRC there was some research from Denmark suggesting the opposite, namely that the significantly harder steel pellets would have a higher probability of punching through bone and hit vital organs rather than deforming and lodging in the bone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as lead bullets leading to more wounded game.
I think this is a relatively newer development, and it seems every year manufacturers are introducing newer copper bullets with more ductile alloys, precut grooves and whatnot to make them expand faster. I don't think it will take long, to the extent it hasn't already happened, that copper bullets will be good enough for the vast majority of usage. Sure, if you want to hit a rodent at 800m or some other extreme form of long-range marksmanship, you really want the density of lead, but most rifle hunting is done at significantly shorter ranges.
> IIRC there was some research from Denmark suggesting the opposite, namely that the significantly harder steel pellets would have a higher probability of punching through bone and hit vital organs rather than deforming and lodging in the bone.
Great point and one I tend to agree with. But this actually causes an issue. At issue here is that the steel keeps its shape and does penetrate deeper without expanding creating shot size holes through those organs which do ultimately cause death after the bird has flown away and later dies. Unless you hit the heart directly the organs will take time to fail.
Lead on the other hand causes more catastrophic injuries which makes the game more retrievable resulting in less wasted game.
Great point and one I tend to agree with. But this actually causes an issue. At issue here is that the steel keeps its shape and does penetrate deeper without expanding creating shot size holes through those organs which do ultimately cause death after the bird has flown away and later dies. Unless you hit the heart directly the organs will take time to fail.
Lead on the other hand causes more catastrophic injuries which makes the game more retrievable resulting in less wasted game.
Another thing to consider is penetration of the projectile for safety considerations. There are already hunting zones where rifle is not allowed for safety considerations, if you were forced to use steel slugs in a shotgun it would also reduce safe hunting opportunities.
I grew up in one of these game units. It was a shotgun only unit. Unfortunately, a steel slug in a shotgun would permanently damage the shotgun because steel does not give the way lead does. A shotgun has a choke which reduces the barrel diameter toward the end of the barrel. There are sophisticated ways around this problem such a sabot loads but this begins to make the shotgun perform more like a rifle defeating the entire purpose.
I was persuaded enough by the research that I decided to move away from lead slugs a few years ago. I currently use these steel slugs for deer when required to use a shotgun, and find them extremely effective: https://www.ddupleks-usa.com/broadhead-hexolit-32. I'd recommend checking them out. Like most ammo, availability is spotty right now, but cost is reasonable when they can be found.
This is an interesting ammunition. A sabot for sure but the flat/concave face keeps it out of the shotgun acting like a rifle scenario. Thank you for directing me to this.
Yeah, I'm not too worried about this.
Even if you don't find the bullet, it's pretty easy to see the bullet damage when the skin is removed, and those bits gets cut away with large margins before curing, othervise the meat will start to rot there.
Even if you don't find the bullet, it's pretty easy to see the bullet damage when the skin is removed, and those bits gets cut away with large margins before curing, othervise the meat will start to rot there.
It may not be as easy as you think to remove all lead contaminated meat. Here's a quote from a study published by the Minnesota DNR (a decidedly pro-hunting source):
"The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches from the exit wound.
Soft point bullets (rapid expansion) left an average of 86 fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82 fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from the wound."
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary....
It's up to you how concerned you should be, but if you hunt large game with a rifle and are cutting away less than these distances, you are probably occasionally ingesting lead fragments.
"The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches from the exit wound.
Soft point bullets (rapid expansion) left an average of 86 fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82 fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from the wound."
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary....
It's up to you how concerned you should be, but if you hunt large game with a rifle and are cutting away less than these distances, you are probably occasionally ingesting lead fragments.
What a sad culture-wars-meet-public-health mess.
Idea - a non-profit, lead by a few high-profile celebrity hunters, which pays the cost of some "free upgrade to lead-free ammo" coupons that are offered (free on request) with hunting licenses. And a "safely feed your family" brochure goes out with every license, period.
Idea - a non-profit, lead by a few high-profile celebrity hunters, which pays the cost of some "free upgrade to lead-free ammo" coupons that are offered (free on request) with hunting licenses. And a "safely feed your family" brochure goes out with every license, period.
It's a good idea, and there are a few programs that provide free non-toxic ammunition to hunters in some areas. Here's one: https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html
[deleted]
Interesting. Is any part of an animal safe to eat when harvested with lead projectiles? Is it just the area of impact and near, or does it spread throughout very quickly?
Generally speaking, it mostly only affects the meat where lead projectiles hit. The most common lead projectiles for hunting though are shotgun pellets in shells, which have a sizeable spread and often used for small targets like waterfowl and rodents. So a small target and a sizeable spread of pellets means that while only hit and splatter areas are affected, that could be most of the usable meat as well.
From
TFA:
> Upon impact, a lead bullet can fragment into tiny microparticles, too small to see with the naked eye or sense when eating. A deer processor in Pennsylvania who requested anonymity shared his first-hand experience. "Seventy-five percent of the time when I find a bullet in the carcass, I only find the base. I know the lead is all in the meat somewhere," he told EHN.
> Scientists have used X-rays to visualize and count sometimes hundreds of minute lead particles in hunted meat, and have detected high concentrations of lead in hunted carcasses using chemical analysis. Although the U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not recognize a safe limit for the amount of lead in meat, the European Commission set maximum levels at 0.1 parts per million (ppm).
> Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound.
> Upon impact, a lead bullet can fragment into tiny microparticles, too small to see with the naked eye or sense when eating. A deer processor in Pennsylvania who requested anonymity shared his first-hand experience. "Seventy-five percent of the time when I find a bullet in the carcass, I only find the base. I know the lead is all in the meat somewhere," he told EHN.
> Scientists have used X-rays to visualize and count sometimes hundreds of minute lead particles in hunted meat, and have detected high concentrations of lead in hunted carcasses using chemical analysis. Although the U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not recognize a safe limit for the amount of lead in meat, the European Commission set maximum levels at 0.1 parts per million (ppm).
> Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound.
>Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound.
In which direction? Was there any indication of damage? Did they only measure from the round bullet entry?
The statement provides no additional details. The entry wound is often small, about the size of the projectile. While the damage after entry is greater and often identifiable. It is important to follow the projectiles through the game.
In which direction? Was there any indication of damage? Did they only measure from the round bullet entry?
The statement provides no additional details. The entry wound is often small, about the size of the projectile. While the damage after entry is greater and often identifiable. It is important to follow the projectiles through the game.
Indeed I noticed this. But it is common practice to discard the meat around the wound canal on larger animals for this exact reason. So I was curious if someone knew if there was a safe distance from the wound or if it just spread throughout.
Denmark started limiting use of lead shot hunting in the mid-1980'ies, eventually leading to a total ban in the mid 90'ies. After some initial resistance, it seems it has since become accepted. No statistically significant increase in woundings have been observed, nor any statistically significant increase in hunter injuries due to ricochets either.
See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/
See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/
The article has some good numbers, but it's hard to tell how significant it really is in the grand scheme of a lifestyle.
Everything has some risks and you need to prioritize somewhat. Not that I hunt anyway.
Everything has some risks and you need to prioritize somewhat. Not that I hunt anyway.
Apparently lead free ammunition is available. I don’t know why you’d be so lazy not to buy it if you’re actually going to eat the meat
It's not so straightforward. While there are solid copper projectiles available in some jurisdictions, most lead-free projectiles have been decried by gun control activists as "cop killer bullets". Lead is extremely soft, and thus uniquely bad at penetrating body armor. Projectile composition is heavily regulated in the US, ironically in favor of the continued use of lead projectiles.
I mean, there are solid-copper hollow-tip bullets on the shelf at the Bass Pro Shop and I live in California. This persecution story seems like a 2A fundamentalist fantasy.
Solid copper doesn't behave the same way ballistically to lead, as it is significantly less dense. You don't seem to actually understand how firearms work and your perspective is based entirely on what happens in California, a notoriously unfriendly state to anyone who doesn't actively hate guns.
Copper bullets did not prevent California hunters from taking tens of thousands of deer, elk, and pigs last year. I honestly don't know what you are whining about. There is a copper rifle round out there for every type of game you can hunt in America.
In NJ for example it is a felony to posses to hollow points (NJSA 2C:39-3(f)) so you will likely face an additional felony if you are ever charged on another gun crime.
The projectile of a piece of ammunition is also used by the feds as an excuse to ban importation if they deem it not suitable for sporting purposes.
The projectile of a piece of ammunition is also used by the feds as an excuse to ban importation if they deem it not suitable for sporting purposes.
That NJ law is for handgun ammo. Do you hunt a lot of game with a handgun? I mean I know people do it, I've just never personally met one.
The classification of something as handgun vs. long arm ammo is extremely soft and discretionary. As soon as one company makes a production handgun that fires a specific cartridge it's enough to get it deemed as handgun ammo.
If someone starts marketing a pistol that fires 180gr 30-06 I’ll have to cancel my plans to commit felonies in New Jersey I guess.
How does that not break your hand?
Even the possession of the hollowpoints would be a felony.
This isn't just a case of laziness.
Most lead free I've come across is Barnes straight copper stuff. It's not heavy enough, and drastically changes the way it shoots and also how it acts on impact.
There's not a lot that can be done to fix this today, because cartridges were designed with lead projectiles, and guns designed around the cartridges. To get a heavier bullet, it would need to be a substantially bigger(longer) bullet, therefore not working in any gun.
A reasonable proposition is for a new cartridge to be designed around an all copper(or steel, whatever) bullet. It would take a lot of time to get adoption, though, unless the military uses it.
There's not a lot that can be done to fix this today, because cartridges were designed with lead projectiles, and guns designed around the cartridges. To get a heavier bullet, it would need to be a substantially bigger(longer) bullet, therefore not working in any gun.
A reasonable proposition is for a new cartridge to be designed around an all copper(or steel, whatever) bullet. It would take a lot of time to get adoption, though, unless the military uses it.
> A reasonable proposition is for a new cartridge to be designed around an all copper(or steel, whatever) bullet. It would take a lot of time to get adoption, though, unless the military uses it.
The US military has already moved to steel core, lead free projectiles over a decade ago, specifically because of safety concerns about lead contamination. However, steel core ammunition is explicitly illegal in the US, because it's considered "armor piercing".
The US military has already moved to steel core, lead free projectiles over a decade ago, specifically because of safety concerns about lead contamination. However, steel core ammunition is explicitly illegal in the US, because it's considered "armor piercing".
> However, steel core ammunition is explicitly illegal in the US, because it's considered "armor piercing".
That's... not really how that works. The US has tens of thousands of laws related to guns, and they intersect in different ways in different jurisdictions. Federally, though, at any rate, AP ammunition is only illegal for /handguns/. For rifles, there is no such legal restriction and steel core rifle rounds are commonplace. Most hunting is done with shotguns and rifles, you can easily find steel pellet shotgun shells.
The bigger issues is 1) Increased costs 2) Different ballistic performance.
That's... not really how that works. The US has tens of thousands of laws related to guns, and they intersect in different ways in different jurisdictions. Federally, though, at any rate, AP ammunition is only illegal for /handguns/. For rifles, there is no such legal restriction and steel core rifle rounds are commonplace. Most hunting is done with shotguns and rifles, you can easily find steel pellet shotgun shells.
The bigger issues is 1) Increased costs 2) Different ballistic performance.
Again, it's not that straightforward. The ATF has ruled that most common rifle rounds such as 5.56, 7.62 NATO, and 7.62x39 are actually considered pistol rounds, and thus subject to AP regulations, because someone somewhere has detached the stock from their rifle, thus converting it to a "pistol".
The price is usually much higher, hell they sit next to each other on the shelf so "lazy" isn't a part of it in 99% of cases.
Lead contamination is a bit of a crusade of mine. I'm always frustrated when the topic comes up. People will object to any proposed improvement by saying "I've been doing <XYZ> for 40 years and it hasn't killed me yet!"
Yeah, it hasn't killed you, but how do you know you're not 10 IQ points dumber than you could have been?
Yeah, it hasn't killed you, but how do you know you're not 10 IQ points dumber than you could have been?
It astonishes me that it’s 2021 and they're still selling toys with lead paint and garden hose fixtures with lead in them.
Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware
It's not really a problem for things made in the US. It's a huge problem for things made in China and then imported into the US.
Surely you don't think each and every product from all those IKEA-named Chinese resellers on Amazon has been closely vetted for lead and other banned components?
https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso...
> A breaking investigation from the Wall Street Journal revealed that online retail giant Amazon has been selling thousands of products that have failed federal safety tests, including children's toys containing four to 411 times the safe limit of lead.
https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso...
> A breaking investigation from the Wall Street Journal revealed that online retail giant Amazon has been selling thousands of products that have failed federal safety tests, including children's toys containing four to 411 times the safe limit of lead.
Is there an at home test to determine if anything you have contains lead?
Yes, there are a lot. Don’t buy the overpriced “home” versions.
3M LeadCheck Swabs, Instant Lead Test, 8-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/
3M LeadCheck Swabs, Instant Lead Test, 8-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/
> Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware
In the US. A lot of goods that originate from overseas made with metal contain lead in their alloys, and lead paint is often used for white paints in particular. A LOT of goods enter the US market from overseas imports containing lead, and there's no real establish process for testing and validating safety or functionality of these products prior to sale.
In the US. A lot of goods that originate from overseas made with metal contain lead in their alloys, and lead paint is often used for white paints in particular. A LOT of goods enter the US market from overseas imports containing lead, and there's no real establish process for testing and validating safety or functionality of these products prior to sale.
Garden hoses are lead contaminated, at least the ones I avoided all said 'this product contains lead'. I'm in the US.
Quick link -
https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/
Quick link -
https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/
RV specific hoses are much more expensive and they don't contain lead. It's madness.
I wish. Serious lead reduction efforts only started ca. 50 years ago, regulations were phased in irregularly across a huge variety of industries, applications, and jurisdictions over a long period of time (causing many lead-containing products to simply shift from one supply chain to another), and much of it is effectively on the honor system.
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-pr...
https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-pai...
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-pr...
https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-pai...
robobob5000(4)
Ugh, as a kid I grew up fishing shot out of cooked rabbit and pheasant and stacking it up on the side of my plate; or accidentally spitting it out because if you weren't careful you'd crack a tooth. My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage if anyone tries to tell him anything about his hunting (we had hide his ammo when he started getting befuddled). He'll never change. Hopefully younger hunters are aware of just because we did XYZ and it was bad for you means you don't have to do it anymore.
> My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage
Classic symptom of lead poisoning, ironically.
Classic symptom of lead poisoning, ironically.
Had a guy blow up when I indicated I would prefer Teflon tape for sealing pipe threads over his favorite Master's metallic pipe dope. Here's the MSDS:
https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?ke...
It's basically powdered lead in an alcohol carrier that you wipe on your threads with a brush.
At first I thought he was just a grumpy old plumber tired of liberal environmentalist kids with their newfangled safety regulations, but perhaps the lifetime of working with leaded solders and leaded thread sealant has affected him in some way...
https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?ke...
It's basically powdered lead in an alcohol carrier that you wipe on your threads with a brush.
At first I thought he was just a grumpy old plumber tired of liberal environmentalist kids with their newfangled safety regulations, but perhaps the lifetime of working with leaded solders and leaded thread sealant has affected him in some way...
This is the insidious thing about lead, those consumers who have been exposed now may be unequipped to rationally evaluate the problem, the risk, the severity and alternatives because of their diminished mental state.
Victims of lead based mental illness have the same vote weight that you do.
Victims of lead based mental illness have the same vote weight that you do.
Your post is a textbook example of a Kafka trap.
Are there alternatives to lead for bullets and shotgun shells? If so, it would great to mandate them and keep all that lead out of the environment. We got rid of lead in most fuels; ammunition could be next.
Yes, there are alternatives, primarily steel, but it's quite a bit more expensive. For my purposes, I only ever hunt with steel pellet shells, I would never use lead.
Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more bucks? Pun not intended
Most families that hunt for meat, including mine, are not wealthy. We are not talking about sport hunters, we are talking about subsistence hunting. It's still very common in large swathes of America. Just looking around for the lowest prices possible, the cost of steel shot is more than double the cost of lead shot for #3 shells (commonly used for waterfowl). For #00 shells (used for deer and medium game) it's more than three times as expensive. Ammo costs add up quick, as you need to practice with the same shells you hunt with.
Working in tech, I can afford to buy higher quality and more expensive things, and the ammunition I use is no exception. But for many people it's not really within their budget. Lead is cheap, it's one of the main reason its used to make projectiles in the first place.
Working in tech, I can afford to buy higher quality and more expensive things, and the ammunition I use is no exception. But for many people it's not really within their budget. Lead is cheap, it's one of the main reason its used to make projectiles in the first place.
Why does hunting and practice ammo need to be the same? Is subsistence hunting that precise?
And if you can use cheap ammo for practice, then I would guess the price of ammo for actual hunting wouldn't be very significant. A dollar extra per animal or something?
I don't really know, just trying to understand.
And if you can use cheap ammo for practice, then I would guess the price of ammo for actual hunting wouldn't be very significant. A dollar extra per animal or something?
I don't really know, just trying to understand.
A few dollars is make or break for the week for a lot of rural folks. When I was getting my hunting license, speaking to other people there made me realize how much of a (privileged) bubble I lived in.
different ballistic trajectories. You need to zero your rifle with one ammo type. This may be different for shotguns
Isn't that for long-range? I guess so, I just didn't know that was a major factor for typical hunters on a budget (who probably have cheap scopes anyway).
Yeah but none of those things are reasons to permit releasing all that lead into the environment. Every bird that you take with lead shot poisons another generation of fish and their predators, which isn't really fair to fish and fishermen. California banned leaded ammunition and as far as I have heard that did not increase the rate of childhood malnutrition or whatever.
I'm not advocating that people should use leaded ammunition, so I'm not sure what argument you think you are trying to make? I'm advocating having a bit of empathy for people who don't make tech salaries and buy all their groceries at whole foods. The posted article looks like primarily an anti-gun hit piece, and your reply also reads as an uncharitable take that is placing a lot of blame and responsibility on individuals who, for the most part, are just trying to feed their families.
I don't see the hit piece aspects of the article at all. Perhaps you did not read it. It seems quite factual and even-handed.
Anyway I have a feeling that you are radically over-estimating the size of the subsistence hunter population. It is a vanishingly small slice of what is already a tiny fraction of the American population. Last I heard only 3% of Americans ever hunted, and it was yet another one of those things that has a real strong positive correlation with household income.
If you really want to empathize with subsistence hunters then your beef is with wacko preppers. I didn't even notice the price difference when I switched to copper rifle loads but after COVID-19 started the price of a box of rifle cartridges tripled.
Anyway I have a feeling that you are radically over-estimating the size of the subsistence hunter population. It is a vanishingly small slice of what is already a tiny fraction of the American population. Last I heard only 3% of Americans ever hunted, and it was yet another one of those things that has a real strong positive correlation with household income.
If you really want to empathize with subsistence hunters then your beef is with wacko preppers. I didn't even notice the price difference when I switched to copper rifle loads but after COVID-19 started the price of a box of rifle cartridges tripled.
Geez, wait until they see the bill for cleaning up all the lead in the environment from their shooting.
LoL, if they are subsistence hunting they arent using a machine gun. There wont be lead all over as they shouldnt be taking more than one shot in the first place.
[deleted]
> the cost of steel shot is more than double the cost of lead shot for #3 shells (commonly used for waterfowl). For #00 shells (used for deer and medium game) it's more than three times as expensive.
That's surprising. In bulk, steel is a fraction of the cost of lead (usually, though at the moment the market seems a bit crazy). Is steel shot seen as a luxury product for hippies with money, or where does the difference come from?
That's surprising. In bulk, steel is a fraction of the cost of lead (usually, though at the moment the market seems a bit crazy). Is steel shot seen as a luxury product for hippies with money, or where does the difference come from?
Supply and demand. Demand is low, for all the reasons mentioned. Lead shot benefits from economy of scale.
There are some practical problems:
1) Steel core ammunition is illegal for use in handguns since its armor piercing. Banning lead without relaxing rules on steel would create legal problems. And in some states steel core is illegal in all types of firearms.
2) Steel is more likely to spark if it hits a rock, for this reason it's banned in ranges out west and National Forest/BLM areas due to the risk of forest fire
3) Ammunition is out of stock everywhere and it would would definitely cause shortages and price people out of the market. There are millions of people who need ammunition not only for hunting but pest control, wilderness self-defense, and so on.
4) Someone more knowledgeable than me may argue this but it may not be as humane in some cases, since lead is designed to tumble and fracture killing the animal instantly while steel is more likely to go right through a target.
1) Steel core ammunition is illegal for use in handguns since its armor piercing. Banning lead without relaxing rules on steel would create legal problems. And in some states steel core is illegal in all types of firearms.
2) Steel is more likely to spark if it hits a rock, for this reason it's banned in ranges out west and National Forest/BLM areas due to the risk of forest fire
3) Ammunition is out of stock everywhere and it would would definitely cause shortages and price people out of the market. There are millions of people who need ammunition not only for hunting but pest control, wilderness self-defense, and so on.
4) Someone more knowledgeable than me may argue this but it may not be as humane in some cases, since lead is designed to tumble and fracture killing the animal instantly while steel is more likely to go right through a target.
> 1) Steel core ammunition is illegal for use in handguns since its armor piercing. Banning lead without relaxing rules on steel would create legal problems. And in some states steel core is illegal in all types of firearms.
It wouldn't surprise me if this were the secret goal for some people.
It wouldn't surprise me if this were the secret goal for some people.
You only use one round to harvest an animal, but that round can be preceded by tens or hundreds of rounds at the range, much of which should be with the same load and bullet.
It's not just cost - steel and copper bullets expand less, so animals harvested with them can be wounded for longer periods before dying, which many hunters see as unethical.
It's not just cost - steel and copper bullets expand less, so animals harvested with them can be wounded for longer periods before dying, which many hunters see as unethical.
It is also worth noting that gun ranges periodically reclaim the lead by digging up their backdrops and recycling all of the spent bullets. The lead will not stay there forever.
> Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more bucks? Pun not intended
This is not a true statement. I started hunting with a $115 shotgun and a $35 license which in turn provided my 1 deer, dozens of rabbits and countless ducks. If I were to take just the deer into consideration compared to lets say the price of pork at $2.99 / Lb. ( not to mention the cost of beef ) One hundred pounds of pork would cost me $299. The deer cost me $150 and I get to keep the gun. No I didn't need a truck, I walked out the door and into the woods. Yes I had to buy ammo but it lasted several seasons and I got to use the gun for the rest of my life.
My junior and senior year in school hunting provided all the protein for my family.
Of course, just likely anything else, you can make hunting as expensive as you would like it to be.
This is not a true statement. I started hunting with a $115 shotgun and a $35 license which in turn provided my 1 deer, dozens of rabbits and countless ducks. If I were to take just the deer into consideration compared to lets say the price of pork at $2.99 / Lb. ( not to mention the cost of beef ) One hundred pounds of pork would cost me $299. The deer cost me $150 and I get to keep the gun. No I didn't need a truck, I walked out the door and into the woods. Yes I had to buy ammo but it lasted several seasons and I got to use the gun for the rest of my life.
My junior and senior year in school hunting provided all the protein for my family.
Of course, just likely anything else, you can make hunting as expensive as you would like it to be.
Be careful of prions, wild game is not the safest source of protein.
While in theory you might be correct, do we have any evidence that a human has ever contracted a prion disease from eating a wild animal? I eat wild game, and I'm concerned about CWD, but I don't think there is much cause for alarm yet.
there are more options for shotgun shells than for bullets.
For bullets you can basically do pure copper. I think anything else falls into a 'armor piercing' category that is banned. I'm not 100% clear on the laws there but I know that is why most bullets are still lead core (in addition to cost factors).
lead ammo bans are a way to ban guns without banning guns themselves, similar to 'microstamping' and other odd proposals. Basically mandate something that makes it so costly that no one can do it
For bullets you can basically do pure copper. I think anything else falls into a 'armor piercing' category that is banned. I'm not 100% clear on the laws there but I know that is why most bullets are still lead core (in addition to cost factors).
lead ammo bans are a way to ban guns without banning guns themselves, similar to 'microstamping' and other odd proposals. Basically mandate something that makes it so costly that no one can do it
Lot of places have banned lead shot for water fowl hunting. California banned lead bullets for hunting. The replacements are steel shot and bismuth for bullets.
There’s a federal ban on using lead ammunition to hunt migratory waterfowl (ducks and geese: https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/hunting/nontoxic.... ). I don’t believe there was ever any followup ban on lead for quail, pheasant, turkey, etc., though.
Steel. At least in my state, lead shot is illegal to hunt with, but you can use it for clay pidgins.
The classically false "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger."
It doesn't help that there is limited study about casual contact with lead. Most sportsman understand the risks of commercial levels of lead exposure but the occasional contact with the human body or environment is not easily quantifiable or understood.
Lots of “ooh, the alternatives are too expensive” but that’s just a supply & demand issue that will be resolved the moment everyone switches to lead.
Sounds like another vote for using a bow and arrow...
Bow is nice because it does not make noise when you practice and you don't have to worry about the kids getting into it since there is no way they can pull it back.
On the other hand it takes a lot more practice then a rifle and you have to get much much closer to whatever you are hunting.
I use a bow with the kids but we rarely catch anything. If you really need the meat better use a gun.
On the other hand it takes a lot more practice then a rifle and you have to get much much closer to whatever you are hunting.
I use a bow with the kids but we rarely catch anything. If you really need the meat better use a gun.
My biological grandfather live in deep West Virginia. They do have rifles (shotguns rather i think) but they "hunt" with traps. There is a lot of deer there, and from what i heard their group were never great hunters, way better riders than hunters at least, and it was always easier for them to kill a trapped deer than shoot at it (and also the risk of shooting on someone you know, it was a small back-to-lander community). Nowadays they don't need the meat anymore (and they don't ride horses either, old age catching up), but they still use traps sometime.
I think the rationnal was also to be a lot less subject to snake attacks. You had to got hunt with a dog to avoid those, and even then it wasn't foolproof. And there was no road access until the late 90s, making moving without horses (who didn't fare that well with dogs) inconvenient at best.
I think the rationnal was also to be a lot less subject to snake attacks. You had to got hunt with a dog to avoid those, and even then it wasn't foolproof. And there was no road access until the late 90s, making moving without horses (who didn't fare that well with dogs) inconvenient at best.
Bow and arrow is more environmentally friendly but is typically deemed inhumane/abuse by animal welfare activists.
I think the link should be: https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html (submitted link has accidentally captured some sort of custom fragment-deep-link-in-the-url implementation)
Ok, we've changed to that from https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lac.... Thanks!
Having hunted nearly 40 years for all types of game and in a large number of different settings I wanted to provide a few observations from experience to help the conversation:
- Lead tends superior ballistically to alternatives
- Lead induces less damage to the firearm
- To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot ) and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an individual will need to purchase different firearms. For instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells.
- Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately fatal wounds.
- When I took hunters education we were taught about lead and how to prepare game to minimize the risk of exposure. When my children took hunters education 15 years ago they were provided the same education. Not to mention the education they received from me.
- Damaged meat can be identified and cut away. I was taught to cut at least 3 inches outside of the wound margin. From the xrays I have seen this seems appropriate. This doesn't just include the entry wound but also other areas of impacted meat. Process your own meat and take pride in the result.
- Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as lead bullets leading to more wounded game.