TikTok Congress Hearing(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
TikTok Congress Hearing
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/23/technology/tiktok-congress-hearing.html
108 comments
I'm hoping that this will result in banning excessive data collection by not just TikTok, but also Facebook and others. Why single out TikTok? Only because it's Chinese?
Yeah pretty much just because it's Chinese. China doesn't allow American internet companies access to their market either though.
Microsoft's Bing is allowed, because they apply the same censorship as local companies. That's a barrier to entry into the market (need to hire lots of censors) but not a competitive disadvantage (because everyone else also needs to hire lots of censors).
American politicians who want to copy Chinese policies to retaliate for unfair treatment of American companies would be retaliating against American citizens for unfairly having First Amendment rights when Chinese citizens don't.
American politicians who want to copy Chinese policies to retaliate for unfair treatment of American companies would be retaliating against American citizens for unfairly having First Amendment rights when Chinese citizens don't.
I doubt American citizens would be banned from accessing TikTok. It would just be banned from app stores and CDNs, presumably if they sideload or visit the website they will be able to access it.
I think this would effectively drop the usage (maybe not to 0 but enough to allow other social services to come back on the stage). Most people don't know how to sideload or don't want to sideload anything out of app store, the webpage version is unwieldy to use.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jan/12/google-ch...
> Google said the cyber attack originated from China and that its intellectual property was stolen, but that evidence suggested a primary goal was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.
How many Chinese human rights activists use or used Hotmail?
> Google said the cyber attack originated from China and that its intellectual property was stolen, but that evidence suggested a primary goal was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.
How many Chinese human rights activists use or used Hotmail?
Quite a lot in the old days. Microsoft is a well-known brand in China. Grandma and grandpas are repeating stories of Bill Gates during 00s, they don't know who tf Sergey is. There are very minimal Mac users, so computer = PC = Windows + Office = Microsoft.
That doesn't mean tech-savvy human rights activists used Microsoft's HotMail over Gmail.
Human rights activists are not tech-savvy.
> China doesn't allow American internet companies access to their market either though.
Google and Facebook both used to operate in China. The government of China told them to start censoring certain content. US lawmakers did not like this and warned the companies not to comply with Chinese rules. So the companies left China to keep the US side happy.
So to be clear, there was active pressure from the highest levels of US government for American companies not to build products in China that could be used for censorship.
The revisionist history is wild.
Google and Facebook both used to operate in China. The government of China told them to start censoring certain content. US lawmakers did not like this and warned the companies not to comply with Chinese rules. So the companies left China to keep the US side happy.
So to be clear, there was active pressure from the highest levels of US government for American companies not to build products in China that could be used for censorship.
The revisionist history is wild.
Why did you leave out the cyberattacks on Google against CCP's opponents?
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jan/12/google-ch...
See this is one of the advantages of having an open society. Google is not censored in the US and we can look up the history of Google being forced out of China.
> Google said the cyber attack originated from China and that its intellectual property was stolen, but that evidence suggested a primary goal was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jan/12/google-ch...
See this is one of the advantages of having an open society. Google is not censored in the US and we can look up the history of Google being forced out of China.
> Google said the cyber attack originated from China and that its intellectual property was stolen, but that evidence suggested a primary goal was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.
I think the main thing, from a govt perspective, is that a popular social network not under the influence of the government is a real live-wire. The US wants to ban Tik Tok for the same reason that China bans Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.
If it was actually about privacy or whatever, they would simply ban the privacy-violating practices, not the app itself.
If it was actually about privacy or whatever, they would simply ban the privacy-violating practices, not the app itself.
>US wants to ban Tik Tok for the same reason that China bans Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.
Except once again, PRC doesn't ban US services, they force them to comply with PRC laws that has onerous moderation overheads. And these services refused back when SV was riding high on free speech, aka low cost moderation.
IMO US wants to ban Tik Tok because they can't implement broad content/privacy rules like in PRC. Whether due to tech lobbying, because it's politically difficult, or it's politically inconvenient - US platforms implementing elevated standards will ripple expectations and costs across global markets where they operate.
Also keep in mind that even PRC hasn't tried to force of sale US companies due to national security. Require joint ventures / ramp up costs, sure. With Oracle deal out, TikTok can't even operate in US the same way iCloud can operate in PRC.
Except once again, PRC doesn't ban US services, they force them to comply with PRC laws that has onerous moderation overheads. And these services refused back when SV was riding high on free speech, aka low cost moderation.
IMO US wants to ban Tik Tok because they can't implement broad content/privacy rules like in PRC. Whether due to tech lobbying, because it's politically difficult, or it's politically inconvenient - US platforms implementing elevated standards will ripple expectations and costs across global markets where they operate.
Also keep in mind that even PRC hasn't tried to force of sale US companies due to national security. Require joint ventures / ramp up costs, sure. With Oracle deal out, TikTok can't even operate in US the same way iCloud can operate in PRC.
Thanks, good points.
Though it's not as official as in China, major American social networks are increasingly heavily moderated, and increasingly do work closely with govt and close-to-government entities to enact desired moderation (censorship, if you prefer) policies.
They do this "voluntarily", but it's not clear they could actually decline w/o suffering consequences.
This is perhaps somewhat less true at Twitter post-Elon aquisition. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Though it's not as official as in China, major American social networks are increasingly heavily moderated, and increasingly do work closely with govt and close-to-government entities to enact desired moderation (censorship, if you prefer) policies.
They do this "voluntarily", but it's not clear they could actually decline w/o suffering consequences.
This is perhaps somewhat less true at Twitter post-Elon aquisition. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
That's half the story. The other half is that it's under the influence under an antagonistic authoritarian government. If tiktok were a japanese app, this would play out very differently.
OK, let's run with that:
Let's say TikTok becomes a fully-fledged US company.
Is that actually something under the US government's control? I mean...will the US government actually do anything substantive to reign in the privacy violations of an American company?
Yeah, right...
Let's say TikTok becomes a fully-fledged US company.
Is that actually something under the US government's control? I mean...will the US government actually do anything substantive to reign in the privacy violations of an American company?
Yeah, right...
You remember the whole Snowden thing where all the US social media companies have NSA backdoors? Guess which government has backdoors into TikTok.
In other words, it's less a user privacy issue and more a national security issue.
In other words, it's less a user privacy issue and more a national security issue.
...because the US government having a backdoor into Facebook isn't a national security issue?
Because that isn't remotely the case. A backdoor exists for everyone, or it doesn't exist.
Because that isn't remotely the case. A backdoor exists for everyone, or it doesn't exist.
It’s probably a national security issue for China, but they already banned Facebook.
How do you enforce privacy laws with foreign entities? They can just lie and say they’re compliant. Not sure if courts in China care
At that point, Apple/Google would be forced to remove them from app stores since it would violate laws.
Because I'd want someone to do this for me, the word you want is "moot". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moot
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I don't get why people can't just admit that banning tiktok would be a step forward in protecting privacy. It's only one app, sure, but it would be one less app collecting everyone's data. It's also extremely popular in america, so it is probably collecting a lot of data.
The US passing legislation that would protect user data likely won't happen for a long time. The US banning tiktok seems like it may happen soon. I think most people agree the former is more ideal, but wouldn't the latter also be a good thing?
For what it's worth, I really hate most social media and the general landscape of "free" products/services that make their money by selling your data, and I do hope one day we have laws that strictly regulate who can sell what, or just ban the practice entirely. But that includes tiktok, so it being banned would be a good thing in my book.
The US passing legislation that would protect user data likely won't happen for a long time. The US banning tiktok seems like it may happen soon. I think most people agree the former is more ideal, but wouldn't the latter also be a good thing?
For what it's worth, I really hate most social media and the general landscape of "free" products/services that make their money by selling your data, and I do hope one day we have laws that strictly regulate who can sell what, or just ban the practice entirely. But that includes tiktok, so it being banned would be a good thing in my book.
I agree with the assessment[1] that even if it isn't illegally collecting data it should be banned because it gives China a crucial edge in the development of AI tools that American companies don't have. China is able to freely access Western markets but not the other way around.
[1] https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-d...
[1] https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-d...
Congress is also being lobbied by TikTok. I've noticed three main opposition points here.
- It's to protect US tech giants
- It's Sinophobic
- Privacy laws for all tech would be preferable
These all deflect from the reason there is a hearing today: Concerns regarding the handling of US user data by a large company with ties to the Chinese communist government.
- It's to protect US tech giants
- It's Sinophobic
- Privacy laws for all tech would be preferable
These all deflect from the reason there is a hearing today: Concerns regarding the handling of US user data by a large company with ties to the Chinese communist government.
Your third point, strict privacy laws for all, would protect American devices from the CCP, no?
Maybe. China also wasn't supposed to have access to US TikTok data but they do. What makes you so sure that they would obey some new privacy law? As much as I'd like better privacy laws, why should US tech giants be punished for what TikTok is doing?
In that case they would be banned under the new law, the same way any other company would.
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Because the privacy abuses are privacy abuses, regardless of their country of origin? If Google is already properly respecting their users privacy they won't be affected by a strong privacy law - except we know that they aren't, and therefore we should be cleaning house instead of singling out Tik Tok.
The privacy abuses aren't the issue. Privacy abuses of US citizens by an (increasingly hostile) adversary is the issue. How many years do you think it would take to pass sweeping privacy legislation/overhaul? I think the privacy legislation path is letting perfect be the enemy of good. It's a way to kick a can down the road and possibly never address the specific issue of TikTok. It sounds great. If it were easy I'd pick that path as well.
So what should Europe do? Ban US and Chinese companies?
I thought we don't want a great firewall like China because you know "freedom", yet we are running down this path.
I thought we don't want a great firewall like China because you know "freedom", yet we are running down this path.
The US and Europe are not adversaries but partners.
They only part in which they are partners is the common enemies. However when it comes to economic benefits or anything not related to the enemies they will stab each other in the back to serve their own interests. From trade embargos/tarifs to spying on each other.
I disagree and think that's a bleak and depressing assertion that shows your bias.
Your perception is contrary to history, which has shown multiple trade wars against the US and EU, as well as repeated scandals with the US spying on EU officials and even invading EU member state territory against their consent.
Europe is a vassal of Global American Empire (GAE)
That's insulting and disrespectful to Europe.
I don't think so.
When I go to a bank here in Switzerland as a Swiss and ask to open a bank account I am asked if I have an US Citizenship. I am not asked if I have a Russian or Chinese or any other Citizenship. Why is this? Because the US has forced regulations down Switzerland throat with threats of preventing Swiss banks from using the USD.
In many other European countries there are US soldiers stationed. How many French or British military bases are there in the US?
When I go to a bank here in Switzerland as a Swiss and ask to open a bank account I am asked if I have an US Citizenship. I am not asked if I have a Russian or Chinese or any other Citizenship. Why is this? Because the US has forced regulations down Switzerland throat with threats of preventing Swiss banks from using the USD.
In many other European countries there are US soldiers stationed. How many French or British military bases are there in the US?
Privacy alone is not enough. How would you ensure the recommendations are not pro-CCP?
Imagine if TikTok were owned by Russia and videos that are pro Ukraine being throttled.
Given China's history of hacking Gmail accounts of folks in the US, this is probable.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jan/12/google-ch...
Imagine if TikTok were owned by Russia and videos that are pro Ukraine being throttled.
Given China's history of hacking Gmail accounts of folks in the US, this is probable.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jan/12/google-ch...
Yes, I’m sure the CCP is going to adhere to US privacy laws.
While playing with it for a short this morning, TikTok threw the CEO speaking at the hearing into my "For You" 3 times. Nothing else in my "For You" was tech related, and I didn't linger on them or provide other signals demonstrating interest.
Maybe it was complete chance, or maybe it wasn't. It made me consider the potential danger of a direct propaganda spigot from the Chinese government to today's youth.
Maybe it was complete chance, or maybe it wasn't. It made me consider the potential danger of a direct propaganda spigot from the Chinese government to today's youth.
It's not complete chance, but it also is how their live algorithm tends to work. After watching a live for a couple minutes, it seems to come back into the for you feed after some scrolling, even multiple times. Probably because its shown most people in that scenario are in fact still interested in the live feed, but got bored with the immediate proceedings and may get drawn back in after some time has passed.
In terms of showing the live feed initially, there is obviously a lot of interest and anger on Tiktok about the potential ban, thus broadening the reach of that content.
In terms of showing the live feed initially, there is obviously a lot of interest and anger on Tiktok about the potential ban, thus broadening the reach of that content.
I noticed this too, but it sincerely just seems like self preservation. Should the US government come after me after being lobbied by Meta and other conglomerates I surely would be "loud" about it too.
> It made me consider the potential danger of a direct propaganda spigot from the Chinese government to today's youth.
What does everyone here think will happen on TikTok when the PRC invades Taiwan? TikTok will be a flood of "don't get involved", "The West caused this", and other PRC state propaganda immediately.
What does everyone here think will happen on TikTok when the PRC invades Taiwan? TikTok will be a flood of "don't get involved", "The West caused this", and other PRC state propaganda immediately.
Can anyone shed light on what exactly "banning TikTok" would look like implementation-wise in the US? Would ISPs be required to block them at the network level? App stores forced to remove the app? Is there any precedent for something like this?
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of tik tok users have iPhones. Politely asking (with a threatening order) Apple to delist the app would be enough to kill it dead.
It would be a mortal wound, remaining users would bleed off, and the small contingent that remains would hold much less overall influence.
It would be a mortal wound, remaining users would bleed off, and the small contingent that remains would hold much less overall influence.
I could see something like trade sanctions where it's illegal to do business with them. Similar to how Iran is treated.
How would that work look from a use perspective? Would Google not list them? Would app stores drop them? Would the app work for existing installs?
Most likely, it would be illegal for businesses to do work with Tiktok. So no US advertisers, no payout to US creators. The company would then most likely kill its US platform, as it would no longer be economical.
Not sure. Depends how heavy handed Apple and Google want to be. App store removal is a given.
App store ban, CDN ban, advertising ban.
TikTok was already banned once by Trump. It was removed from app stores for new downloads but still worked if already installed.
ETA: Here’s one article I was able to find about it buried under more recent ones. I’m not sure how long it was removed for, but I do remember checking the Apple App Store at the time and not being able to find it, though it still worked if already installed.
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/trump-tikt...
ETA: Here’s one article I was able to find about it buried under more recent ones. I’m not sure how long it was removed for, but I do remember checking the Apple App Store at the time and not being able to find it, though it still worked if already installed.
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/trump-tikt...
This never happened.
Technically, Trump did ban TikTok in the sense that he filed an executive order on August 21, 2020. But before it went into effect, Biden signed an executive order revoking the Trump administration ban.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_co...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_co...
An injunction against the order was granted by the courts, it would have probably been struck down by a judgement even if Biden didn’t rescind Trump’s order. Executive orders just can’t do those kinds of things.
Would someone do that, go on the internet and tell lies?
Here’s the source for The Rolling Stones article about it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/us-start-blocking-tik...
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/us-start-blocking-tik...
- Blacklist and sanction services like TikTok that are controlled by adversary nations
- Make sure the FCC removes blacklisted apps from app stores.
- Require ISPs to block access to the sites of those sanctioned companies.
- Make foreign employees of sanctioned companies ineligible for most visas.
- Require U.S. national employees and others affiliated with it to register as foreign agents.
- Make sure the FCC removes blacklisted apps from app stores.
- Require ISPs to block access to the sites of those sanctioned companies.
- Make foreign employees of sanctioned companies ineligible for most visas.
- Require U.S. national employees and others affiliated with it to register as foreign agents.
Too little too late. TikTok is embedded in the culture now. They could've banned it four years ago when all these privacy concerns were first making headlines but now that half the population uses it every day there's no chance in hell.
They could still pass strict privacy laws but the others (Facebook, Google, etc.) don't want that.
Why would TikTok follow them? How can we actually enforce that?
Regular audits I assume
I mean, they could do it. But it would be wildly unpopular among that demo.
That demo would just learn to sideload their apps.
Most people don’t even know what sideloading is, but more importantly it would kill the value of tik tok because the population would be gone and therefor the audience and the money.
can't sideload into iphone that easily.
Not on iOS, and CDNs likely will not be allowed to host content from TikTok.
there's no way bytedance will sell tiktok to an american company. anyone who thinks this will happen is high as a kite. imagine instagram had taken off in china. would the US allow it to be 'force sold' to bytedance or tencent or whatever? L-O-L.
bytedance will just shut tiktok down if the US "forces" them to sell. it will simply disappear one day -- maybe with a nice little note explaining the situation, maybe not. the domestic US political ramifications of this are unknown, because we've never been in this kind of situation before - half the country uses this thing, across the entire socio-political demographic spectrum.
if the ccp has ultimate control as so many people say, on what planet do they sell this market leading company and platform to a US buyer? one that plainly and openly calls china the enemy. the US can not split the political difference between an outright ban and permitting them to operate. it's a binary outcome. even entertaining the idea that the US would just simply take over this asset is pure, unadulterated fantasy. in fact it is delusional.
i mean is anyone actually thinking logically about this?
bytedance will just shut tiktok down if the US "forces" them to sell. it will simply disappear one day -- maybe with a nice little note explaining the situation, maybe not. the domestic US political ramifications of this are unknown, because we've never been in this kind of situation before - half the country uses this thing, across the entire socio-political demographic spectrum.
if the ccp has ultimate control as so many people say, on what planet do they sell this market leading company and platform to a US buyer? one that plainly and openly calls china the enemy. the US can not split the political difference between an outright ban and permitting them to operate. it's a binary outcome. even entertaining the idea that the US would just simply take over this asset is pure, unadulterated fantasy. in fact it is delusional.
i mean is anyone actually thinking logically about this?
> i mean is anyone actually thinking logically about this?
My working hypothesis is that some of the people considering this ban are thinking about it logically but with the erroneous idea that China is the China of 40 years ago and they the United States is the United States of 40 years ago.
My working hypothesis is that some of the people considering this ban are thinking about it logically but with the erroneous idea that China is the China of 40 years ago and they the United States is the United States of 40 years ago.
I think many supportive of a ban are thinking the United States is the United States of 100 years ago, not 40. The United States of the early 20th century wouldn't have tolerated any of this. Teddy would've broken up all Big Tech and banned TikTok without breaking a sweat, and simply sneered at the detractors before going on another safari.
Unfortunately, this America no longer exists.
Unfortunately, this America no longer exists.
According to this guy's testimony 60% of TikTok is foreign investor owned and those foreign investors would very much sell it off before just setting fire to their money.
Why would they simply shut down instead of capturing some portion of their expected future revenue with a sale?
This almost happened before when Trump issued an executive order for Bytedance to divest TikTok. Most of the media outlets reported that Bytedance was actively courting U.S. corporations to buy Tiktok. I'm sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes but I don't think the automatic reaction would be to shutter TikTok.
Yeah I remember reading about Bytedance willing to sell US TikTok and about how US TikTok is a relatively independent entity etc. So definitely not unthinkable but geopolitics have changed considerably since then.
Didn’t it what happened with e.g. Uber?
that was voluntary, and uber was losing money and marketshare.
In a larger context, I find the priorities of all of this amazing.
The fact that social media (including TikTok) is actively designed for addiction and is currently causing a generation-wide mental health crisis?
Not a problem.
The fact that all of those apps have been collecting and trading personal data for more than a decade by now?
Not a problem.
The fact that we know of Facebook's experiments on mood manipulation and we had several scandals about social networks successfully manipulating political opinion?
Not a fucking problem.
Only when there is risk that all the data gathering, manipulation and exploitation might be done by a foreign state, then social media suddenly becomes a matter of national security.
The fact that social media (including TikTok) is actively designed for addiction and is currently causing a generation-wide mental health crisis?
Not a problem.
The fact that all of those apps have been collecting and trading personal data for more than a decade by now?
Not a problem.
The fact that we know of Facebook's experiments on mood manipulation and we had several scandals about social networks successfully manipulating political opinion?
Not a fucking problem.
Only when there is risk that all the data gathering, manipulation and exploitation might be done by a foreign state, then social media suddenly becomes a matter of national security.
I think this hearing showed how important playing politics is for any career.
One can be absolute incompetent and clueless in everything but as long as they are good at being performative and playing politics. They can reach top level of organization, have all the power and money without much of the responsibility.
Even if one doesn't like politics, knowing how to read people and identifying politics in play is crucial as an insurance in career.
It's bleak, but that's the way human works.
One can be absolute incompetent and clueless in everything but as long as they are good at being performative and playing politics. They can reach top level of organization, have all the power and money without much of the responsibility.
Even if one doesn't like politics, knowing how to read people and identifying politics in play is crucial as an insurance in career.
It's bleak, but that's the way human works.
senttoschool(2)
US government indescriminately hoarding American citizens' data? But if we don't, the terrorists win! It's not as if honest Americans have anything to hide, right?
US companies openly abusing their access to American citizens' data? I'm sure fining them like 0.1% of their profits will do the trick! No, we can't add more regulations to the industry! Haven't you read Atlas Shrugged?
Chinese company having access to American citizens' data? We need to do something about this ASAP! Maybe we can make them an American company!
US companies openly abusing their access to American citizens' data? I'm sure fining them like 0.1% of their profits will do the trick! No, we can't add more regulations to the industry! Haven't you read Atlas Shrugged?
Chinese company having access to American citizens' data? We need to do something about this ASAP! Maybe we can make them an American company!
I think it's more China having the ability to order a company to do something like this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tik...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tik...
I think the concern is foreign agents using the data for either propaganda or targeting individuals’ phones/location data.
It’s exactly what national intelligence exists for.
It’s exactly what national intelligence exists for.
Yeah, I get that. They are concerned about the Chinese government abusing the data in that specific way.
But they are not really concerned with any other abuses. Is it really the category of abuse that matters here, and not the actor?
Color me unconvinced.
But they are not really concerned with any other abuses. Is it really the category of abuse that matters here, and not the actor?
Color me unconvinced.
I absolutely think it’s about the actor AND the category.
The CCP has really been stepping up its game and putting pressure on in a bad way lately.
The South China Sea, Taiwan, Russian interaction… lots of geopolitical reasons for the two governments to be unfriendly at the moment.
The CCP has really been stepping up its game and putting pressure on in a bad way lately.
The South China Sea, Taiwan, Russian interaction… lots of geopolitical reasons for the two governments to be unfriendly at the moment.
...and what does that have to do with my data?
Do you really think the CCP is going to run an effective pro-Russia/China or anti-Taiwan propaganda campaign? In the US? An effective one?
I'm still not convinced that risk is even remotely more concerning than what Facebook or the NSA are doing.
Do you really think the CCP is going to run an effective pro-Russia/China or anti-Taiwan propaganda campaign? In the US? An effective one?
I'm still not convinced that risk is even remotely more concerning than what Facebook or the NSA are doing.
I feel like there's a difference between the two.
One scenario I can see is that the US will ban TikTok while the EU will implement much stricter privacy rules which would need to be adhered by TikTok and all the other (Instagram, Facebook etc). Effectively making the whole reason the US is going to ban TikTok moot.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/faceboo...
EDIT: Spelling