A drill bit that can also drive screws(core77.com)
core77.com
A drill bit that can also drive screws
https://www.core77.com/posts/135333/Industrial-Designer-Invents-Drill-Bit-that-Can-Also-Drive-Screws
157 comments
An interesting idea. Mostly it makes me want to start a museum of weird tools that never really caught on / worked.
In the demo video, are those pilot holes? How well does it start without them? And is he pushing more than he'd have to with a normal bit, to get it started?
He did appear to be applying more force than with a real drill bit. Maybe you get the job done in half the time but you're equally tired.
Doesn't really save 50% of the time if you have both a drill and an impact driver. And I'd rather use a drill to drill and an impact driver to drive, even though both tools can technically do either task.
Isn't an impact driver a bit much for an ordinary screw application, especially when there's a pilot hole?
I often use two drills, or a drill and a screwdriver, when I'm doing a lot. My impact driver is mostly for situations where I need more force.
I often use two drills, or a drill and a screwdriver, when I'm doing a lot. My impact driver is mostly for situations where I need more force.
I like having both, my M12 impact has a speed/torque setting which comes in handy for lighter uses, but the adjustable clutch of drills is also useful for driving screws.
I think a lot of the frustration with using a drill to drive screws is just that the adjustable chuck is annoying to use with a hex shank driver bit, which is solved by drills with interchangeable chuck heads such as Festool's drills with their FastFix chuck system, the Bosch 12v small driver, or the Milwaukee installation driver.
I think a lot of the frustration with using a drill to drive screws is just that the adjustable chuck is annoying to use with a hex shank driver bit, which is solved by drills with interchangeable chuck heads such as Festool's drills with their FastFix chuck system, the Bosch 12v small driver, or the Milwaukee installation driver.
For a lot of my work (stage set construction, light house work) I use an adapter and extender, which helps in awkward corners. It also has a sleeve to hold screws steady.
Sometimes I will use a drill bit with a hex shank, which is nice for swapping out but more expensive. I usually don't end up replacing them .
Sometimes I will use a drill bit with a hex shank, which is nice for swapping out but more expensive. I usually don't end up replacing them .
I find the impact driver is a bit nicer when using Phillips screws, the pause gives it time to re seat, but I generally try and avoid Phillips in the first place
Also I think a lot of people have both a drill and an impact driver because they come in a sets at a bit of a discount.
Also I think a lot of people have both a drill and an impact driver because they come in a sets at a bit of a discount.
50% savings seems very optimistic. If you drill all your holes, switch once, then drive all your screws, there's only a few seconds this thing can possibly save you. Then you consider that it takes a smidge more effort to drill with this sub-optimal bit, and it's really a stretch. There would have to be some aspect of the project's assembly sequence that required you to switch multiple times.
I've done a decent amount of remodel work and new builds. The workflow you've described rarely plays out in real jobs. This combo bit looks particularly useful for building things like decks.
Would you use Philips head screws for a deck? I wouldn't. Even square drive is a pain if you need to back them out for any reason - you're sure to round out one in 20 or 30 of them, then RIP to any time you saved. I pretty much exclusively moved to star drive.
Is there any reason the design can’t be adapted to a star drive? Is there not enough clearance between the points on the bit or not enough room for clearance with the extra drill flutes? Is it too flat on the head compared to phillips?
This design hardly works with Philips..
I can't believe people use anything other than Torx or something equivalent, especially for outside work. The difference between crappy regular wood screws and a box of GRK or Deckmate is night and day.
I used to think of Torx as the best until I met a French Canadian who dared me to use Robertson (square).. I did, now I'm all Robertson. The screws stick to the bit before putting them in and always come loose after. Torx acrews often sticks to the bit when they're in. I also seem to need less of a variety of sizes compared to Torx.
But hey, I'll take Torx over Philipps any day.. Not sure why those are still around.
Robertson is much more prone to camming out, especially when trying to remove them after they have been in place for a while and a little gunk builds up in the square.
Is that not the case with torx? I could suppose not.
I've been using Robertson but I don't often build stuff.. yet..
I've been using Robertson but I don't often build stuff.. yet..
For star drive, the force is transferred between the walls of the bit and the walls of the screw flush against each other. Like with gears. This leads to minimal wear and allows for wide tolerances and sloppy angles between bit and screw.
Square bits on the other hand drive the edge of the bit against the wall of the square hole. The edge can cut a circle into the screw, and the square head gets turned into a circle by wear. Thus required tolerances are much lower, and screws don't fall off the bit. If they did fall off you'd know to change the worn bit.
Square bits on the other hand drive the edge of the bit against the wall of the square hole. The edge can cut a circle into the screw, and the square head gets turned into a circle by wear. Thus required tolerances are much lower, and screws don't fall off the bit. If they did fall off you'd know to change the worn bit.
Why not use deck screws designed to self drill? They work fine for boards you’d use on a deck.
This driver/drill bit is strictly worse than the alternatives. Most homeowners doing any building other than drilling a few holes for photo hanging will probably have bought a drill/driver pair from Ryobi or something anyways, so you don’t really need to swap bits.
This driver/drill bit is strictly worse than the alternatives. Most homeowners doing any building other than drilling a few holes for photo hanging will probably have bought a drill/driver pair from Ryobi or something anyways, so you don’t really need to swap bits.
Not only that, but most people who do a lot of woodworking have both a drill and an impact driver that they switch between as necessary.
> 50% savings seems very optimistic. If you drill all your holes, switch once, then drive all your screws, there's only a few seconds this thing can possibly save you.
A few seconds is often the difference between doing something and not. Obviously not talking about work.
But if I have a drill, already with a drill/screw bit in it, and box of right sized screws it is going to get used anywhere a screw can make any difference at all.
People say "If all you have is a hammer, ..." For a reason!
Nobody says, "If all you have is a drill, a box of drill bits, a set of drawers with screws, ...". For a reason!
(It would be great if every decent sized box of screws came with a drill/screw bit appropriately sized for pre-drill and screw. As a hobby level crafter, who cannot always find things, those would be the boxes of screws I bought every time. Every other box of screws would become invisible to me.)
A few seconds is often the difference between doing something and not. Obviously not talking about work.
But if I have a drill, already with a drill/screw bit in it, and box of right sized screws it is going to get used anywhere a screw can make any difference at all.
People say "If all you have is a hammer, ..." For a reason!
Nobody says, "If all you have is a drill, a box of drill bits, a set of drawers with screws, ...". For a reason!
(It would be great if every decent sized box of screws came with a drill/screw bit appropriately sized for pre-drill and screw. As a hobby level crafter, who cannot always find things, those would be the boxes of screws I bought every time. Every other box of screws would become invisible to me.)
> It would be great if every decent sized box of screws came with a drill/screw bit appropriately sized for pre-drill and screw
This is very common. GRK, Spax, Axis (a local brand to the Seattle area), and many more. Yes, they are better!
This is very common. GRK, Spax, Axis (a local brand to the Seattle area), and many more. Yes, they are better!
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To be honest people that do handy work regularly and value the time savings have two, three and even four drills.
I've got a rural, agricultural, mining and aviation background and since the 1970s we've worked singlely or in pairs with multiple drills, one to drill holes, another to drive screws.
If there's a big cupboard or similar on the bench it's not unknown to have seperate drills for
* thin pilot hole,
* main larger diameter hole,
* larger again counter sink hole for top of shaft to hide screw head,
* driver to put screws in.
I've got a rural, agricultural, mining and aviation background and since the 1970s we've worked singlely or in pairs with multiple drills, one to drill holes, another to drive screws.
If there's a big cupboard or similar on the bench it's not unknown to have seperate drills for
* thin pilot hole,
* main larger diameter hole,
* larger again counter sink hole for top of shaft to hide screw head,
* driver to put screws in.
Absolutely this. It starts by intentionally buying a drill, then getting lured by one of those tool combo deals that has another drill lurking in the pile. Then someone hears you like working with your hands and you're absolutely getting a drill for <insert gift giving occasion here>. The first time you don't have to stop and chuck a new bit mid-task you'll wonder why the hell you ever worked any other way.
>then getting lured by one of those tool combo deals that has another drill lurking in the pile
So relatable it's funny.
Yeah, you described my experience exactly! :)
So relatable it's funny.
Yeah, you described my experience exactly! :)
Have you made it to the end stage where you decide that software, the software industry, developer culture, etc. is fractally bullshit and started a home repair and remodeling company?
Almost. Bought shitload of pro tools, found an apartment to remodel completely by myself (and completed it), but stopped at the final step: haven't started a remodeling company :D
The similarities are eerie. My wife fell in love with a little 60's brick ranch that had foundation issues, mold, and everything else you could imagine. By the time I had that place fully restored I had coworkers, friends of coworkers, and on a couple occasions random people in Lowes approaching me to see if I was available for work. Gotta say knowing my work will last decades is pretty gratifying compared to the disposable nature of coding.
I've got a Shaper that I use for some projects, and I went this way with spindles for it. I picked up three extras, and one spindle is permanently 1/4" downcut, one is 1/4" upcut, one is a 1/4" bowl bit, and the fourth is for whatever else I need, but I haven't taken the V-carve bit out of it yet. Extra bonus, the first three are all dialed in to the exact same depth, so I don't need to re-zero the Z on the tool.
Apparently you've never had to change drill bits up high on a ladder? I've dropped (and lost) plenty of drill bits trying to undo the chuck whilst holding a screwdriver bit. It may have its uses if this can free up a hand.
I'd consider using a small magnet taped to the drill. Though I usually just use my pocket
That could work. I use a little tray that fits in the steps/top of the ladder
Round shank drill bits and three-jaw chucks are largely obsolete for job site use. Contractors are now predominantly using hex shank drill bits in an impact driver for conventional drilling, or SDS drill bits for masonry drilling.
https://www.lowes.com/pl/power-tool-accessories/drill-bits/t...
https://www.lowes.com/pl/power-tool-accessories/drill-bits/t...
>Round shank drill bits and three-jaw chucks are largely obsolete for job site use.
Not sure if I agree here. Of course SDS has been the standard for quite a while in masonry uses, but impacts simply do not have the power of a full sized drill with a 1/2" chuck (or bigger) for more difficult materials. The 1/4" hex shank is pretty limiting for torque as well, and the chuck has far worse concentricity if you care at all about precision.
The hex shank bits are decent (although I'd say I prefer round shank with flats) but calling round shank obsolete seems a bit far.
Not sure if I agree here. Of course SDS has been the standard for quite a while in masonry uses, but impacts simply do not have the power of a full sized drill with a 1/2" chuck (or bigger) for more difficult materials. The 1/4" hex shank is pretty limiting for torque as well, and the chuck has far worse concentricity if you care at all about precision.
The hex shank bits are decent (although I'd say I prefer round shank with flats) but calling round shank obsolete seems a bit far.
> I prefer round shank with flats
Try getting a quick-change chuck and this opinion will change.
Try getting a quick-change chuck and this opinion will change.
Magnet wristband. lifechanging
The biggest time saving I've had in woodworking was switching to modern self-drilling screws with Torx head [1]. With a highish-rpm impact driver, these screws require no pre-drilling even with plywood and are a pleasure to work with in general.
[1] https://domax.com/en/model/cs
[1] https://domax.com/en/model/cs
I will say that changing bits is hard...
- under a foundation
- on a ladder
- <insert favorite example here>
- under a foundation
- on a ladder
- <insert favorite example here>
Interesting concept but 50% saved time in the video is exaggeration - when you have 10 holes to drill and screw then just first drill 10 holes, change ending in your tool and then screw 10 holes. If you doing this whole day then have just 2 tools - you need this at least for backup if one tool breaks.
This is the industrial equivalent of DIY-why?!
FWIW, woodworkers that care about speed for these operations (mostly niche furniture assembly) do them in parallel and simply have two drivers or use nail-guns with "glue nails".
FWIW, woodworkers that care about speed for these operations (mostly niche furniture assembly) do them in parallel and simply have two drivers or use nail-guns with "glue nails".
I don’t think this are optimal for the craftspeople market. If I managed a bunch of rental properties or something and was doing quick-and-dirty fixes all day, I’d buy these if they worked. The hole size vs screw size seems weird. Also if I had to board up my windows for storms regularly. Or quick home projects outdoors. Plenty of times where speed of application and easy unscrewing are both useful.
No they're not. I have, genuinely, no idea what market this targets. I concur on the hole vs screw size in the demo.
For quick boarding applications just use modern nails and a modern nail gun. They've gotten really good and really cheap.
This doesn't even speed up screw applications. Just use modern self-tapping wood screws. They've gotten really good and really cheap.
If you're doing anything structural, GRK screws are absolutely insane, reusable, and practically indestructible--though not cheap.
For quick boarding applications just use modern nails and a modern nail gun. They've gotten really good and really cheap.
This doesn't even speed up screw applications. Just use modern self-tapping wood screws. They've gotten really good and really cheap.
If you're doing anything structural, GRK screws are absolutely insane, reusable, and practically indestructible--though not cheap.
This seems like it would be a disposable item once the tip wears, at least more disposable than a regular bit. Sharpening seems like it would be difficult and time consuming, if that is possible in the first place.
Supposing you're just drilling soft woods--like maybe you're building a deck or a fence or a shed--that could be a long time indeed.
When I saw this I immediately imagined some $4 AliExpress listing for "combination electric drill screwdriver versatile high quality multifunctional tool impact driver for home and auto DIY repair". It only has a home in a device that is overall destined for the trash.
I have used a screwdriver bit as a drill to make a small divot to help get self-tapping screws started into wood.
The drill bit seems way too big for pilot holes.
No one is diving Philips head screws anymore. Happy for this guy and I hope he finds a market for this, but I can't imagine who would buy it.
What are they driving instead?
Posidriv, Torx or Square.
Phillips has the annoying property that it is designed to cam out. That's OK for hand tools but generally ruins the bit when used in a power tool.
Phillips has the annoying property that it is designed to cam out. That's OK for hand tools but generally ruins the bit when used in a power tool.
Informative, thank you :-)
But the cam out was made for power tools, auto industry specifically. These power tools (pneumatic) had a LOT of power and the screw was dimensioned to torque correctly during cam out.
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Deck screws are pretty much all Torx these days. Phillips are still used, but mostly by people who don't know any better.
Phillips is still prevalent in drywall screws due to the low torque required. But you don’t need pilot holes for drywall screws.
Indeed, and with a drywall bit, the bit cams out at the exact moment when the screw is deep enough. Yes the bits wear out eventually, but it takes a long time.
The real hack is to have two drills. Seems excessive but once you do it you'll never go back.
It's so nice to have a clutch setting on the driver, and the drill at full power. I hate having to rotate the collar back and forward and inevitably overdrive screws with the wrong setting.
Edit: or even clicking that switch back and forward.
Edit: or even clicking that switch back and forward.
I think there are “smart” drills that switch modes when you change from a drill bit to a driver bit (and vice versa). Still inconvenient for frequent usage though.
My smart drill loves to just gently screw in the screws until there’s some resistance and it suddenly ramps up and it hammers that screw through in a second haha.
Every time I try it, I disable it again. I must be using it wrong, or that thing is way too powerful for me.
It even managed to break the screw a few times.
Every time I try it, I disable it again. I must be using it wrong, or that thing is way too powerful for me.
It even managed to break the screw a few times.
The Milwaukee M18 drill/driver pair is perfect for this, and typically what I use. Keep the jobber bit in the drill and the put the screws in with the hex driver.
You can also attach them to each others bits and make them fight at the end of the job. Waste of money? Yes. A massive amount of fun for the boys? Absolutely.
The diameter of the drill bit looks too large to be used for drilling pilot holes for screws compatible with the Philips head. Apart from Philips being a terrible choice for anything really.
I agree, exactly what screw goes into the hole that has the same diameter as the screw head? I could see maybe those plastic drywall anchors with the oversized thread, but not a conventional fastener.
I’m OOTL with all the Phillips hate in this thread. Is there a good reason to prefer other patterns or is it simply bandwagoning?
I have 2 different size Robertson bits but about 25 different sizes and shapes Philips bit. It’s super annoying. Use the “wrong” bit and it’s easy to strip the head. It’s just not a problem with Robertson or better yet, those star shaped ones.
There are literally 25 sizes of Torx bits (the star shaped ones), plus some variants ("security", plus, ttap, ...). That's actually one reason people complain about Torx compared to, say, Robertson.
Unlike with Philips, you are less likely to use the wrong bit by accident though. One of the worst things with Philips is that there is a very similar and very popular drive called Pozidriv, and you sometimes find both on the same piece of equipment, adding to the confusion. Using the wrong driver kind of works, but with a good chance of stripping the head or damaging the bit.
Unlike with Philips, you are less likely to use the wrong bit by accident though. One of the worst things with Philips is that there is a very similar and very popular drive called Pozidriv, and you sometimes find both on the same piece of equipment, adding to the confusion. Using the wrong driver kind of works, but with a good chance of stripping the head or damaging the bit.
You're right obviously, I shouldn't have used Torx as an example here. The only difference that someone else mentioned somewhere was that it's more difficult to use the wrong size one.
Phillips is designed to cam out, typically resulting in damage to the fastener if the operator isn't quick enough to react.
Torx and Robertson simply do not do that. They just work and that is really worth it!
Torx and Robertson simply do not do that. They just work and that is really worth it!
It is absolutely not bandwagoning. The torque tolerances of most Phillips head fasteners are abysmally low and most brand-name impact drivers will damage the recess compromising the fastener after installation.
It's an outright scam to use them in construction compared to Torx and Robertson which thankfully are slowly replacing them in use.
It's an outright scam to use them in construction compared to Torx and Robertson which thankfully are slowly replacing them in use.
I would never use a Phillips screw in anything that needs to be maintained over time. They're just far too easy to strip, and they're easier still if you get the wrong size driver. For example, a PH3 driver in a PH2 screw or vice versa are a disaster waiting to happen.
Pozidriv screws are marginally better in this regard. You can use a Phillips driver in a Pozidriv screw, but to get the best benefit you will need a matching Pozidriv driver instead. The possibility of user error due to driver size mismatch remains.
Note that the opposite is not true; using a Pozidriv driver to drive a Phillips screw will do even more damage than a Phillips driver ever could when the screw bottoms out, on top of damaging the driver itself.
Torx screws are far better, and unlike Phillips and Pozidriv, the wrong size Torx bit will simply either completely not fit, or wiggle and spin fairly freely. If it does spin due to being undersized, the only damage you're risking is usually to the driver, leaving the screw still usable and removable.
Note that the usual caveats about torque apply. If you're using an impact driver that kicks out over 200 Nm on its highest setting, you'd better be using a driver and a screw rated for that, regardless of what you end up using. Or you will snap something either way.
Pozidriv screws are marginally better in this regard. You can use a Phillips driver in a Pozidriv screw, but to get the best benefit you will need a matching Pozidriv driver instead. The possibility of user error due to driver size mismatch remains.
Note that the opposite is not true; using a Pozidriv driver to drive a Phillips screw will do even more damage than a Phillips driver ever could when the screw bottoms out, on top of damaging the driver itself.
Torx screws are far better, and unlike Phillips and Pozidriv, the wrong size Torx bit will simply either completely not fit, or wiggle and spin fairly freely. If it does spin due to being undersized, the only damage you're risking is usually to the driver, leaving the screw still usable and removable.
Note that the usual caveats about torque apply. If you're using an impact driver that kicks out over 200 Nm on its highest setting, you'd better be using a driver and a screw rated for that, regardless of what you end up using. Or you will snap something either way.
It's not just Philips. The common hex screws are also very prone to stripping.
Torx is pretty much impossible to mess up short of overtightening it.
Torx is pretty much impossible to mess up short of overtightening it.
I’ve found that self-tapping screws and an impact driver give me the same effect.
As long as you don't care about splitting the wood.
Given how easy it is to blow out a Phillips head with a drill and a bit that's not perfect, and given how much difference a good 135 degree jobber bit from a reputable manufacturer like Norseman makes, I can't see this being very good at either in a real world scenario.
My eye is twitching.
I was out on a bike last week - it’s easily the nicest possession I have and perhaps the nicest I’ll ever have, a Cervélo Soloist.
The front rotor starting rubbing the calliper after a fast descent. I happened to have the correct tool and went to adjust the calliper and immediately stripped the screw head. I went to three bike shops, but all were too scared to touch it.
I did as the my all said. I cut a slot in the screw with a Dremel and tried a large flathead screwdriver, but it still wouldn’t budge. So I made the sides flat and got it out with a massive spanner. Bike frame miraculously untouched.
Satan himself arranged for these shit screws to be put in that amazing frame.
I was out on a bike last week - it’s easily the nicest possession I have and perhaps the nicest I’ll ever have, a Cervélo Soloist.
The front rotor starting rubbing the calliper after a fast descent. I happened to have the correct tool and went to adjust the calliper and immediately stripped the screw head. I went to three bike shops, but all were too scared to touch it.
I did as the my all said. I cut a slot in the screw with a Dremel and tried a large flathead screwdriver, but it still wouldn’t budge. So I made the sides flat and got it out with a massive spanner. Bike frame miraculously untouched.
Satan himself arranged for these shit screws to be put in that amazing frame.
Oh, my hands are sweating just reading that. I think I’d rather land a 737 than take a dremel near that much Italian carbon.
Cervélo is not an Italian company, they're Canadian. Its name is partially Italian as it's a portmanteau of cervello (brain in Italian) and vélo (bike in French).
Sounds scary! Was it an Allan key by any chance? I've done a fair share of bicycle repairs, and never had a problem after investing in a proper set of allan keys[1]. Several times I or friends have rounded the slot with a cheap tool, but fixed it just by trying again with the better tool.
Glad your bike was okay in the end.
[1] - https://wheelfanatyk.com/blogs/blog/wera-nails-it
Glad your bike was okay in the end.
[1] - https://wheelfanatyk.com/blogs/blog/wera-nails-it
It was a SRAM torx, which are incredibly soft and I had the correct tool with me. I don’t like SRAM brakes. I do like the electronic shifting though. My brakes are now using Shimano Allan keys. I do fanaticise about using Shimano brakes, for a true mongrel bike.
This looks like posidrive, not Philips.
Woodspur torx, self-piloting, self-countersinking screws:
https://cdn.axminstertools.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6...
The tip is scalloped and sharp for precise driving and piloting, the threading is also sharp, as is the profiled head which does a very good job of counter sinking into soft timber.
They are so sharp in fact that it’s very easy to accidentally drive them an inch deep. Comes wax lubricated in zinc plated or A4 marine stainless for external use.
https://cdn.axminstertools.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6...
The tip is scalloped and sharp for precise driving and piloting, the threading is also sharp, as is the profiled head which does a very good job of counter sinking into soft timber.
They are so sharp in fact that it’s very easy to accidentally drive them an inch deep. Comes wax lubricated in zinc plated or A4 marine stainless for external use.
This is one of those things where you end up with a suboptimal drill bit and a suboptimal screw driving bit. That said, it might sell in stores for your average homeowner to have around.
In a prior life, for a number of years, I designed and built television studios (think datacenter, but more fun). In this context, aside from the technical equipment design, installation and commissioning, we often had to install highly customized pieces of technical furniture. Being an entrepreneur, I was not going to let a potentially nice profit center get through my fingers. So, we jumped right in to design and fabricate custom studio furniture for our clients.
We built hundreds of pieces over many years. The very issue this specialized bit seeks to address was present every day, during building and installation of nearly everything we built. The simplest solution was to always have two tools: A drill and a driver. Sometimes you have two or more drills, each pre-loaded with the required bit size. The single driver could drive any screw, so you only needed one.
That worked very well. To this day, decades later, that's exactly what I do when I work on any project, be it furniture making for home or home remodeling. It works. It's simple and you save a lot of time.
We also tried various versions of quick release drill-bit and screw-bit holders. They work, but it is far easier to have a power drill and a power screw driver and just go.
Oh, yes, and the drill bit portion of this invention is likely terrible, particularly if you need some degree of precision. There's a reason drill bits have a sharp or somewhat sharp point. And, for the same reason, this bit is likely to tear-up screws.
Side point: I rarely use Philips screws any more. They absolutely suck. Torx is the way to go. You can but Torx head construction screws at Home Depot these days. They are strong (drywall screws suck), easy to drive and can even take the abuse of an impact driver if you need to go faster.
In a prior life, for a number of years, I designed and built television studios (think datacenter, but more fun). In this context, aside from the technical equipment design, installation and commissioning, we often had to install highly customized pieces of technical furniture. Being an entrepreneur, I was not going to let a potentially nice profit center get through my fingers. So, we jumped right in to design and fabricate custom studio furniture for our clients.
We built hundreds of pieces over many years. The very issue this specialized bit seeks to address was present every day, during building and installation of nearly everything we built. The simplest solution was to always have two tools: A drill and a driver. Sometimes you have two or more drills, each pre-loaded with the required bit size. The single driver could drive any screw, so you only needed one.
That worked very well. To this day, decades later, that's exactly what I do when I work on any project, be it furniture making for home or home remodeling. It works. It's simple and you save a lot of time.
We also tried various versions of quick release drill-bit and screw-bit holders. They work, but it is far easier to have a power drill and a power screw driver and just go.
Oh, yes, and the drill bit portion of this invention is likely terrible, particularly if you need some degree of precision. There's a reason drill bits have a sharp or somewhat sharp point. And, for the same reason, this bit is likely to tear-up screws.
Side point: I rarely use Philips screws any more. They absolutely suck. Torx is the way to go. You can but Torx head construction screws at Home Depot these days. They are strong (drywall screws suck), easy to drive and can even take the abuse of an impact driver if you need to go faster.
1. That pilot hole looks way too wide for the screw that follows it. A pilot hole should be wide enough to prevent binding, and sometimes for guidance or to prevent splitting, but it still needs to be tight enough so there's plenty of friction so the screw doesn't work loose.
2. Phillips needs to die. Maybe he can make that bit in Robertson. Or nearly anything else, really.
2. Phillips needs to die. Maybe he can make that bit in Robertson. Or nearly anything else, really.
Oh wow, a coffee-maker/fax-machine. I’ve used, collected, lost, sharpened, broken more drill bits and drivers than I can count. I’ve never wished for a worse drill bit attached to a worse screw driver.
I bet they’ll sell a lot of these to homeowners with deck projects, or small softwood projects, and I bet they’ll work just fine for that.
The use case limits how hard they can make these. Absolutely the philips head will get munged being used as a drill bit, and then it’ll cam out of screws at the wrong time. If your driver bit is much harder than your screws then the screws will get stripped. A stripped screw in something important is worse than a broken driver.
I bet they’ll sell a lot of these to homeowners with deck projects, or small softwood projects, and I bet they’ll work just fine for that.
The use case limits how hard they can make these. Absolutely the philips head will get munged being used as a drill bit, and then it’ll cam out of screws at the wrong time. If your driver bit is much harder than your screws then the screws will get stripped. A stripped screw in something important is worse than a broken driver.
I was about to write something similar. I am surprised by how many are taking this idea seriously, here on HN and I guess Good Design Australia.
Driver bits wear down like drill bits when used in these kinds of settings, as well. So if you're working with wood, both of the functions might wear down equally, so there's no harm done.
I'm having a hard time understanding your statement. Both functions are done by the same head so if there is any wear from either function both functions are impaired. An entirely worse scenario than using two separate bits.
This combo-bit is essentially an exceptionally dull 4 fluted drill bit. Any time possibly saved in not swapping bits is lost to the slower drilling speed due to the dullness. The fact that it only works with Phillips screw heads also slows things down due to the greater care needed to avoid stripping the screw head and the work required to remove a stripped screw head when it does occur.
It's not like people have not though about how to do this faster it is just that there are existing alternative solutions that are far superior. Amortizing swaps over multiple screws, using a second drill, having a quick change chuck, using self tapping screws and possibly others that I don't know about.
This combo-bit is essentially an exceptionally dull 4 fluted drill bit. Any time possibly saved in not swapping bits is lost to the slower drilling speed due to the dullness. The fact that it only works with Phillips screw heads also slows things down due to the greater care needed to avoid stripping the screw head and the work required to remove a stripped screw head when it does occur.
It's not like people have not though about how to do this faster it is just that there are existing alternative solutions that are far superior. Amortizing swaps over multiple screws, using a second drill, having a quick change chuck, using self tapping screws and possibly others that I don't know about.
The drilling efficiency of a wood-bit is not only comes from the tip, the bit is razor sharp throughout to effectively drill and smooth the hole at the same time. In terms of this particular bit, while it's not the fastest I have seen (and I semi-regularly use a drill with any and every material), it's not particularly inefficient on what it looks like not-very-soft wood.
> Phillips screw heads also slows things down due to the greater care needed to avoid...
It has a Pozidriv version too as the article notes. Also it's worth noting that even though you don't slip a Phillips or Pozi screw, the driver gets nicked and worn drive by the constant application of torque repeatedly. Even my Weras show some wear even though I give the utmost care I can give.
I'd use that thing at home for light duty stuff, or use it for a very long heavier duty job and might get rid of it at the end of the day.
Self tapping screws do not drive so cleanly most of the time, so I'd not prefer them for the places I see every day. They're good for places I can't see at the end of the day.
> Phillips screw heads also slows things down due to the greater care needed to avoid...
It has a Pozidriv version too as the article notes. Also it's worth noting that even though you don't slip a Phillips or Pozi screw, the driver gets nicked and worn drive by the constant application of torque repeatedly. Even my Weras show some wear even though I give the utmost care I can give.
I'd use that thing at home for light duty stuff, or use it for a very long heavier duty job and might get rid of it at the end of the day.
Self tapping screws do not drive so cleanly most of the time, so I'd not prefer them for the places I see every day. They're good for places I can't see at the end of the day.
> I'd use that thing at home for light duty stuff
I know he's drilling into hardwood, but look how hard he has to press to drill into it. Doesn't look particularly light duty to me.
> having a quick change chuck
This is the way. Under $10 at Home depot for one of these and you can swap 1/4" hex shank bits in less time than you can say "swap 1/4 inch hex shank bits".
I know he's drilling into hardwood, but look how hard he has to press to drill into it. Doesn't look particularly light duty to me.
> having a quick change chuck
This is the way. Under $10 at Home depot for one of these and you can swap 1/4" hex shank bits in less time than you can say "swap 1/4 inch hex shank bits".
Oof. Yeah this shouldve stayed a render. The headline tells me all I need to know. Industrial designer creating a tool is like a graphic designer making a bridge.
To any industrial designers here, this is said with minimum animosity, the arts are important and I cherish them. But for the love of god, if you send me over another step file with a surfacing update that has moved the model coodinate system like 3 microns and changed almost nothing else I might come over and throw your macbook out the window. With love - a mechanical engineer
To any industrial designers here, this is said with minimum animosity, the arts are important and I cherish them. But for the love of god, if you send me over another step file with a surfacing update that has moved the model coodinate system like 3 microns and changed almost nothing else I might come over and throw your macbook out the window. With love - a mechanical engineer
There's a reason why they sell philips bits in boxes of 25.
https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-48-32-4604-Phillips-Shockwa...
https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-48-32-4604-Phillips-Shockwa...
The cheap ones, not the good ones. If there's a box of two bits for the same price right next to this one, I know which one I'd rather buy.
Good hardening is expensive.
Good hardening is expensive.
No bit can survive for long if you're driving hundreds of screws with an impact driver. A very hard bit designed for hand tools will just shatter if you're hitting it with huge pulses of torque; sheared off wings are the usual failure mode for quality philips driver bits. Torx bits hold up better, but they're still a consumable item.
Who uses an impact driver with Philips screws? I guess maybe if you're driving huge screws for framing something heavy but even then I've never felt the need for an impact driver.
And I usually use torx anyway
And I usually use torx anyway
Seriously? I only own a Milwaukee impact driver and use it for everything.
I've worked in construction for years and we never used impact drivers for wood screws.
I could see some use cases for them with really large wood screws, but the Makita drill I used was beefy as shit and never had any trouble. Maybe it's better for big screws but I can't really see why you'd use them for small screws.
I could see some use cases for them with really large wood screws, but the Makita drill I used was beefy as shit and never had any trouble. Maybe it's better for big screws but I can't really see why you'd use them for small screws.
Ok you can make the case an impact driver isn’t the perfect tool for every job but if you only own one, it’s an amazing choice.
Most people these days? Especially those in the trades. Impact drivers with adjustable torque are pretty standard piece of equipment. I have a Milwaukee drill and impact driver. The driver is WAAAAYYY less likely to strip screws than the drill is.
Used to work in the trades, almost never used impact drivers. Always thought they were primarily for heavier workloads like hex nuts/screws. But maybe I've just been missing out
You've been missing out.
At first blush it does seem stupid to use an impact driver in a wood screw, but they just don't strip or cam out.
They're the same size as drills now.
At first blush it does seem stupid to use an impact driver in a wood screw, but they just don't strip or cam out.
They're the same size as drills now.
The Milwaukee is smaller and lighter than the drill, even. It's amazing. And it has adjustable torque, which means you can use it for drywall even without punching through the paper.
And putting in metal roofing or walls without hammering the rubber washer on the roofing screw is amazing. You don't even have to think. Set it to torque setting 1 and forget about it.
And putting in metal roofing or walls without hammering the rubber washer on the roofing screw is amazing. You don't even have to think. Set it to torque setting 1 and forget about it.
Oh whow, yeah I guess that makes a lot of sense. Around here people are still on bldc electric screwdrivers for the most part.
Impact drivers around here are pretty much for loosening metal bolts, and as a sign that your car dealership hates you. But I guess they're faster.
Impact drivers around here are pretty much for loosening metal bolts, and as a sign that your car dealership hates you. But I guess they're faster.
I'm also somewhat critical of this invention, but I reckon the use case is very niche, and might only really apply in certain applications like the hypothetical deck project you mention. Projects where you need to drive a ton of screws in very quickly.
But... I feel there are other tools/solutions in this space that work much better: self-drilling screws, nailguns, nailguns-but-for-screws, etc.
But... I feel there are other tools/solutions in this space that work much better: self-drilling screws, nailguns, nailguns-but-for-screws, etc.
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All true - but then again, torx bits tend to last a hell of a lot longer than philips or posidrive, as they just don’t cam out - and this design could possibly actually work if it had a torx head instead of philips.
That said it takes me all of two seconds to switch from a torx bit to a drill bit, and I tend to do all my drilling then all my screwing to reduce the need for tool changes.
That said it takes me all of two seconds to switch from a torx bit to a drill bit, and I tend to do all my drilling then all my screwing to reduce the need for tool changes.
I think the best use case is as one of these free drill bits they give you with a box of screws and anchors.
Let's see the Robertson version.
Not loving this. It looks like it would walk badly on anything but the softest woods as I don't see any kind of centered tip.
Secondly, the head of a screw is by necessity much larger than the body. So you're going to end up drilling pilots too large for the screw, or else have an extremely weak bite on the head and round it out with any torque at all.
Changing bits on a modern keyless chuck takes about 5 seconds. Throw one in your lips while you use the other. Or if you're like me and find yourself a power tool hoarder, just use a separate drill or impact for each.
Secondly, the head of a screw is by necessity much larger than the body. So you're going to end up drilling pilots too large for the screw, or else have an extremely weak bite on the head and round it out with any torque at all.
Changing bits on a modern keyless chuck takes about 5 seconds. Throw one in your lips while you use the other. Or if you're like me and find yourself a power tool hoarder, just use a separate drill or impact for each.
I'm picturing someone holding a screw by the shank to drill it into the wall, but slipping and puncturing their hand with the bit. There should be no cutting edges with force applied in the direction of your body parts.
I might be atypical here but I rarely drive screws without a preplanned hole that's typically made in batches using a jig or machine, like a router or press. I rarely need to drive a screw directly into a random hole I just made.
If I'm constructing ad-hoc, I'm almost certainly using nails. Not only for convenience, but because they tend to be better suited to this kind of construction. An exception might be drywall screws, but even then, you've got a totally different system established for doing that.
I don't see the use case here. I'm also kind of stuck in my ways, though. I'm open to this making sense, but I'm definitely not an early adopter.
I think I might have thought I wanted this before I learned to plan my builds better.
I might be atypical here but I rarely drive screws without a preplanned hole that's typically made in batches using a jig or machine, like a router or press. I rarely need to drive a screw directly into a random hole I just made.
If I'm constructing ad-hoc, I'm almost certainly using nails. Not only for convenience, but because they tend to be better suited to this kind of construction. An exception might be drywall screws, but even then, you've got a totally different system established for doing that.
I don't see the use case here. I'm also kind of stuck in my ways, though. I'm open to this making sense, but I'm definitely not an early adopter.
I think I might have thought I wanted this before I learned to plan my builds better.
There was an era when this might be feasible but since shrinkflation and the dilution of the alloys in screws, this would immediately ruin all the threads on the heads of screws. I have to be careful with screwdrivers I get from dollar store nowadays because after a few turns, the screw becomes stripped. This does work both ways where wood is as flimsy as cardboard and I can drill with a regular Phillips bit. The Consumer Protection Agency is a joke and if they actually did their jobs this invention would be a breakthrough.
Cute. But 3/16" is way too large a pilot hole for any reasonable screw. I think a #24 screw, which is the largest size of wood screw, has a 3/16" pilot size... and uses a #4 Philips, which is not the bit on this thing (and is sufficiently rare I don't even have one.)
Take my money!
Floor wax and dessert topping, all in one!
More substantively this is too big a drill bit for the pilot holes for the screw size it fits... so it won't act as a tool-change timesaver.
Also, forget phillips for new construction. Torx is much nicer.
More substantively this is too big a drill bit for the pilot holes for the screw size it fits... so it won't act as a tool-change timesaver.
Also, forget phillips for new construction. Torx is much nicer.
Yeah, but if you skip this you have an excuse to buy two drills.
It's criminal that Phillips is used in any construction whatsoever, and it should practically be a IRC/ICC code violation to use it in framing.
Anyone who cares about speed is using nailers or screw guns. Or has a drill and an impact driver.
This really just turns one problem into a bunch. I'll point out the significant ones haven't seen so far
1. It has no self-centering capability, because you've removed any split point
2. The hole diameter is massive compared to the screw head you can drive because of how it must be designed. Either you are limited in the minimum size of the fastener (IE it's bigger than you want), or the drive is smaller than you want.
Example: Let's say this thing will drill like a 1/4" inch hole and then you want to use a 5/16" fastener in that hole. You'd normally have a t-40 head on that fastener, but they literally can't. The width of just the inset torx portion (IE with no accounting for the bit taper and such) is > 1/4" (it's 6.6mm), so they have to undersize the drive. Probably all the way to t-20, maybe t-25 if they are lucky.
That's insane.
There is maybe a small range of diameters that hit the right sweet spot.
3. The effective point angle here is basically unusable for anything but soft to medium hardwoods. On top of that, because of the flutes they removed, and the fact that it is hard to keep sharp, it will cause more tearout.
This will be made worse by having an effective 4 flute head instead of a 2 flute one. If this was in a drill press or a machine, it would be better than the 2 flute one, but in a drill/driver it's just going to add a lot of chatter and increase tearout.
It's the same effect that happens if you try to use a 4 flute or 6 flute countersink in a drill driver vs a one or 2 flute one. The extra flutes make it worse because you can't hold it rigidly enough
4. Drilling and driving are very different applications - you aren't driving the screw in at 2000rpm, and you aren't trying to drill with super high torque.
Expect to either snap lots of screws, or break lots of drills, depending which wrong tool you use :)
5. As it dulls, it will not just lose the ability to drill, but will start very quickly slipping when you try to drive the screw.
6. It is impossible to sharpen without custom jigs or automation.
There are useful drill+something combos, but i do think we found them all already (IE drill+taps are useful, as are drill + c'bore and drill + c'sink)
I don't think this is one of them.
This really just turns one problem into a bunch. I'll point out the significant ones haven't seen so far
1. It has no self-centering capability, because you've removed any split point
2. The hole diameter is massive compared to the screw head you can drive because of how it must be designed. Either you are limited in the minimum size of the fastener (IE it's bigger than you want), or the drive is smaller than you want.
Example: Let's say this thing will drill like a 1/4" inch hole and then you want to use a 5/16" fastener in that hole. You'd normally have a t-40 head on that fastener, but they literally can't. The width of just the inset torx portion (IE with no accounting for the bit taper and such) is > 1/4" (it's 6.6mm), so they have to undersize the drive. Probably all the way to t-20, maybe t-25 if they are lucky.
That's insane.
There is maybe a small range of diameters that hit the right sweet spot.
3. The effective point angle here is basically unusable for anything but soft to medium hardwoods. On top of that, because of the flutes they removed, and the fact that it is hard to keep sharp, it will cause more tearout.
This will be made worse by having an effective 4 flute head instead of a 2 flute one. If this was in a drill press or a machine, it would be better than the 2 flute one, but in a drill/driver it's just going to add a lot of chatter and increase tearout.
It's the same effect that happens if you try to use a 4 flute or 6 flute countersink in a drill driver vs a one or 2 flute one. The extra flutes make it worse because you can't hold it rigidly enough
4. Drilling and driving are very different applications - you aren't driving the screw in at 2000rpm, and you aren't trying to drill with super high torque.
Expect to either snap lots of screws, or break lots of drills, depending which wrong tool you use :)
5. As it dulls, it will not just lose the ability to drill, but will start very quickly slipping when you try to drive the screw.
6. It is impossible to sharpen without custom jigs or automation.
There are useful drill+something combos, but i do think we found them all already (IE drill+taps are useful, as are drill + c'bore and drill + c'sink)
I don't think this is one of them.
This would be semi-useful for one single thing: drilling a 3/8” hole in gypsum board and inserting a drywall anchor, then using the Philips bit to drive a screw. Even then, I’d still swap actual bits.
In every other case, a 3/8” diameter drill bit is going to need a fastener with a ridiculous diameter, large enough to have a bolt head head of a Philips head.
I would never buy one of these, let alone for $20.
In every other case, a 3/8” diameter drill bit is going to need a fastener with a ridiculous diameter, large enough to have a bolt head head of a Philips head.
I would never buy one of these, let alone for $20.
You can poorly drill a hole with a lot of things. Looks like there's a fair bit of pressure required to actually use this thing as a drill bit.
Of course, the main use of this is to drill a lot of holes and drive fasteners at the same time... for which you would want Torx/Robinson/etc and a better drill bit. What everyone does now is just carry two tools, a drill and an impact, clip to your belt, and switch as needed. If you want to carry one tool that does both okay-ish, get an impact driver and a set of impact drill bits. You can quick-switch them pretty fast and you can even do it one-handed.
I've never used it, but there's also the "WORX Switchdriver."
Of course, the main use of this is to drill a lot of holes and drive fasteners at the same time... for which you would want Torx/Robinson/etc and a better drill bit. What everyone does now is just carry two tools, a drill and an impact, clip to your belt, and switch as needed. If you want to carry one tool that does both okay-ish, get an impact driver and a set of impact drill bits. You can quick-switch them pretty fast and you can even do it one-handed.
I've never used it, but there's also the "WORX Switchdriver."
Here’s a better gadget that can quick flip between a countersinking drill bit and a bit driver. It’s modular, adjustable, maintainable, repairable:
https://www.montanabrandtools.com/products/modular-drill-and...
If you’re doing large amounts of countersink fastening into hardwood (where self-piloting will split and self-countersinking will splinter) then you’ll go through drivers and drills real fast.
https://www.montanabrandtools.com/products/modular-drill-and...
If you’re doing large amounts of countersink fastening into hardwood (where self-piloting will split and self-countersinking will splinter) then you’ll go through drivers and drills real fast.
I'd rather use two power tools, wouldn't cost much more but would last a lot longer and do a better job
A good example of unnecessary over-engineering
If the drill bit slips off the screw it could go straight into your hand!
That drill diameter is way too large for the screw he's driving with it, the threads have barely any material to bite into!
screw pilot holes are supposed to be smol.
screw pilot holes are supposed to be smol.
I think it's not supposed to be a pilot hole, but a hole to put a partially-threaded screw through.
I don't think the screw is biting into any material. You can see the screw drop pretty far into the hole. Keep in mind it isn't counter-sinking the hold at all. I think he's driving the screw into the substrate and setting it deep enough that it looks countersunk and isn't loose.
was so ready to be snide and dismissive
but that thing is tool kit magic
not to mention is removes any excuse for just jamming screws in, without pre drilling
50% is an underestimate of time saved
its also interesting in that there are very few true inovations in wood working , as the high point in wood technology is behind us, and the skills and knowledge are far less common today.
Rewind 100 years, and peoples lives were constantly dependent on wooden structures holding together, cars, airplanes, ships, train bodys ,bridges, were made from wood.
Mansfield's dual-drill also had a go at this non-issue.
I had the opportunity to use it years ago. A bit cluncky and not really an improvement.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLdAhQ-Hyac
[deleted]
This very neatly fits the "solution looking for a problem" mindset.
What we really need
https://imgur.com/a/Swft8DW
https://imgur.com/a/Swft8DW
I don't see it.
- I think self drilling screws are much more of a timesaver.
- Drill driver combis cannot have the same durability than separate bits, since driver bits are made of softer or at least more springy steel than drills.
- Also the sharpness of the combi can be a problem for the screw.
- Also torx bits will not jump over, while philips will now and then, and hence wear out more quickly.
- I think self drilling screws are much more of a timesaver.
- Drill driver combis cannot have the same durability than separate bits, since driver bits are made of softer or at least more springy steel than drills.
- Also the sharpness of the combi can be a problem for the screw.
- Also torx bits will not jump over, while philips will now and then, and hence wear out more quickly.
lol, this reminds me of the point (heh) of philips screws - the screw will cam out (strip) to prevent over-torquing of the screw.
Now it will just strip and then drill out the screw itself.
personally I go the OTHER way - I like to use a decent clutch setting and better exact driver <-> fastener connection
like: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08N2KJY77
or torx / star / allen depending
closest I've gotten to multi-use driver bit is the flip phillips <-> flat double-ended bit and similar (just so I can carry one driver around sometimes)
Now it will just strip and then drill out the screw itself.
personally I go the OTHER way - I like to use a decent clutch setting and better exact driver <-> fastener connection
like: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08N2KJY77
or torx / star / allen depending
closest I've gotten to multi-use driver bit is the flip phillips <-> flat double-ended bit and similar (just so I can carry one driver around sometimes)