Detroit's carmakers to save billions in emissions rollback(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Detroit's carmakers to save billions in emissions rollback
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-09-07/detroit-s-carmakers-to-save-billions-in-trump-emissions-rollback
76 comments
I know one thing all americans agree on is that they like their air thick and smoggy. Ask anyone, "do you wnat the air dirtier?" and they say "hell yes!"
I couldn't get past the Bloomberg terms to even read that story. Oof. They are less news-like every day...
Shifting the blame once again to the environment and the tax payer.
[deleted]
Hopefully out of this we can just get a carbon tax instead of a credit system.
It is pretty funny though how much money Musk spent on somebody that just wants to dismantle his empire. If only he read Project 2025.
It is pretty funny though how much money Musk spent on somebody that just wants to dismantle his empire. If only he read Project 2025.
The dems worked harder to dismantle.
I find the latter very amusing, actually. Have tech CEOs confused money as a proxy of power for actual power? Did they really think they could "buy" a guy that grew up in the mafia world of real estate?
Problem for other proxies (knowledge, social media presence, sex, drugs (as a medium), rock&roll, etc): cash is too (stable &) liquid
They didn't want to buy him, they wanted the other guy to lose. Me Too basically turned the entirety of Silicon Valley leadership into happy fascists when it became clear they weren't allowed to sexually harass (or worse) their employees anymore. That was more important than pretty much anything else.
You're right but I think it's even more broad than just sexual harassment, racism, bullying, etc. MAGA has given people license to be shitty and not have to worry (as much) about the social, legal or political costs. In many cases, people are actively rewarded for their bad behavior because "it makes them authentic" or because there's a large enough percentage of the population that shares the same biases.
I don't disagree with you, I just think that in terms of Silicon Valley leaders it's specifically the Me Too angle.
How wonderfully forward looking.
jusqu'ici tout va bien!
Yet the hard landing is inevitable.
Interesting comment: "Until now, everything has been going well"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKookhlYeA
No way, the movie is 30 years old now? Time to check the relevant xkcd
https://xkcd.com/891/
which itself is almost 15 years old... shiiiiiit
https://xkcd.com/891/
which itself is almost 15 years old... shiiiiiit
Yeah, but no-one outside of the USA will buy their shitty cars. So ultimately, they won't be competitive and will go under.
Americans won't have any other option than to buy expensive, high-maintenance ICE vehicles to keep these parasitic manufacturers afloat.
Evidence suggests people want these cars. They already cost more than smaller and cheaper alternatives. But people buy them anyway.
How much of this is because because emission standards in the US reward heavier vehicles, and vehicles over 3.5t get tax benefits and skew the market in the opposite direction than in most (all?) other countries?
Not much when the big trucks outsell the small luxury cars. The most I could get a bmw m3 configured for was $86000, it wasn't hard to get a f150 over $100k.
If money mattered you can look at the toyota corolla for much less than the cheapest f150.
If money mattered you can look at the toyota corolla for much less than the cheapest f150.
The issue is you cant buy a small truck in the US. Even 'small' trucks these days are huge.
Enthusiasts want small trucks. Americans don't want small trucks. They don't want a single-cab S10. They wouldn't even want a double cab S10. What they actually want is a minivan but they're too far into not-cool territory to be a consideration so they look to the mid/full-size SUV and/or truck segment. It is true that you can't really make a small truck in the US any more, and that automakers do like it that way, but it wouldn't change anything even if you changed the CAFE requirements.
As I said, they already cost more than smaller and cheaper alternatives. But people buy them anyway.
Heavily vehicles may be cheaper for whatever reason you cite. But they are still much more expensive than smaller sedans. People still buy the heavier vehicles.
Heavily vehicles may be cheaper for whatever reason you cite. But they are still much more expensive than smaller sedans. People still buy the heavier vehicles.
It's not 3.5 tons, it's the footprint (track width * wheelbase).
The emissions standards reward larger vehicles that generally start around $35k-$40k. Americans just love going immediately underwater on a $100k Grand Wagoneer.
The emissions standards reward larger vehicles that generally start around $35k-$40k. Americans just love going immediately underwater on a $100k Grand Wagoneer.
I think you are referring to the CAFE standards which are part of what I am referring to. However, there is also a weight-based rule for tax write-offs: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/section-179-tax-break-suvs-tr...
Tesla's success shows that people want high-quality EVs. And if competition in the local EV market drives quality up and prices down, they will become more and more compelling to consumers. But tariffs isolate domestic manufacturers from foreign competition where the latest advancements are currently being made. American manufacturers are already not competitive in the global market.
But perhaps most importantly, we must transition from fossil fuels to avoid the most dire possible outcomes of climate change. It doesn't matter if you enjoy a pipe after dinner, you can't smoke in a family restaraunt because it would harm the well-being of the other diners.
But perhaps most importantly, we must transition from fossil fuels to avoid the most dire possible outcomes of climate change. It doesn't matter if you enjoy a pipe after dinner, you can't smoke in a family restaraunt because it would harm the well-being of the other diners.
"Smaller and cheaper" isn't the best comparison point, "same size but cleaner" would be a more interesting one. And AFAICT larger electric cars cost considerably more than most of the gas options in the US.
An internal combustion F-150 costs less than an electric one, I believe the same is true for the Maverick though to a lesser degree. The hybrid Maverick does gangbusters with similar prices; if the electric F-150 cost the same as the gas one and there was a hybrid one at the same price I'd wager that you'd see a lot more uptake than you do of the current Lightning.
An internal combustion F-150 costs less than an electric one, I believe the same is true for the Maverick though to a lesser degree. The hybrid Maverick does gangbusters with similar prices; if the electric F-150 cost the same as the gas one and there was a hybrid one at the same price I'd wager that you'd see a lot more uptake than you do of the current Lightning.
Contrast this with the global market, where EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles.
This will be true soon in the US too. Ford’s already announced an MSRP of $30K for the EV version of this $33K ICE pickup:
https://www.ford.com/trucks/ranger/
https://www.ford.com/trucks/ranger/
Cheaper where and in what way?
Electricity cost is on par or exceeds cost of ICE fuel (gas or diesel) in most of the western world and beyond. Also EVs have much lower resale value.
Electricity cost is on par or exceeds cost of ICE fuel (gas or diesel) in most of the western world and beyond. Also EVs have much lower resale value.
I live in Australia. Electricity here costs around USD$0.20/kWh, unless you are prepared to charge when the wind is blowing, or the sun is shining, in which case it costs USD$0.05/kWh. $0.05/kWh equates to around USD$1.20 per 100 miles for a car that gets 50 miles to the gallon.
That's assuming you have to pay for it. I charge my car from my roof top solar, so it costs nothing.
The resale value for EV's isn't good, but the reason is battery prices are dropping, and batteries are the primary cost of an EV. They dropped 30% in the last year. If that continues, it's all over for US car makers once the tariffs go away.
That's assuming you have to pay for it. I charge my car from my roof top solar, so it costs nothing.
The resale value for EV's isn't good, but the reason is battery prices are dropping, and batteries are the primary cost of an EV. They dropped 30% in the last year. If that continues, it's all over for US car makers once the tariffs go away.
Where I live in the us I save $200 per month with ev vs gas. This is replacing a minivan with essentially the same but 10 years newer. Of course my power all tmes fron wind which is cheap
We’re saving way more than that. Probably the equivalent of $70-90 per “gas tank”. Old car was a late model truck of the same form factor.
The resale values on used EVs are poor because things are improving so fast. The new ones are better and cheaper, which isn’t really the case for ICE models.
The only exceptions are the first few years of Leaf’s, since they ate batteries, and teslas because of the non-removable MAGA bumper stickers.
The resale values on used EVs are poor because things are improving so fast. The new ones are better and cheaper, which isn’t really the case for ICE models.
The only exceptions are the first few years of Leaf’s, since they ate batteries, and teslas because of the non-removable MAGA bumper stickers.
Unfortunately the older EVs don't really have enough range for some of the things I want an older car for (going to camp - I expect to scratch the car so rentals are out)
We had an ICE truck for this purpose for a while. The used long range replacement had a lower MSRP (and we paid less for it), and it’s a better pickup / more capable pickup truck).
I pay roughly €1 for every 100km I drive here in Ireland. My annual car road tax is €120 in stead of 200+. My annual service involves kicking the tires and having a peek under the car.
I bought my ev used for 16k, with a basically brand new battery (mandatory recall) still under warranty. I'm not gonna resell it, I'm probably gonna keep it till the wheels fall off.
I bought my ev used for 16k, with a basically brand new battery (mandatory recall) still under warranty. I'm not gonna resell it, I'm probably gonna keep it till the wheels fall off.
> Electricity cost is on par or exceeds cost of ICE fuel (gas or diesel) in most of the western world and beyond
Doubt.
Doubt.
False. The US Auto market is subsidized and regulated in opaque and convoluted ways that distort prices and demand significantly.
so is everything else in America, not just cars. americans though love to think that only China et al does this shit - it is too funny sometimes
The key here is that US regulation distort the market in favor of heavier cars which encourages cars that will be discouraged in other markets.
But Americans can hope for a regime (policy) change every few years though. You could argue both the political ideologies are broadly doing the same shit, but you can hope or lobby for change. On the other hand, imagine your unfavourite politician/ideology remaining in power for the eternity!
most america subsidizing is not “party-based” - obama bailed out detroit 1000x over what DJT is doing now. oil/gas… same shit. farming, same shit.
it is not like every four/eight years we get to decide what is being subsidized - america is just as socialist as china when it comes to this shit :)
it is not like every four/eight years we get to decide what is being subsidized - america is just as socialist as china when it comes to this shit :)
Unfortunately yes, but there is a chance for a maverick like DJT to come and make sweeping changes (in a positive way).
quite the opposite is and will be happening. same in his first term and same in 2nd/3rd/4th… america “first” all that (this term is including nationalizing businesses like intel which you know, works in beacons of capitalism like venezuela…)
?
The difference is about one order, that makes it a difference of kind when mercantilism is the current successful strategy.
Good thing Covid revealed how weak countries have gotten relying to heavily in critical industries.
The difference is about one order, that makes it a difference of kind when mercantilism is the current successful strategy.
Good thing Covid revealed how weak countries have gotten relying to heavily in critical industries.
How do you figure?
I can buy an electric car now, I can buy an ICE Car whats the difference?
I can buy an electric car now, I can buy an ICE Car whats the difference?
There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs. These vehicles will only improve as battery tech continues to rapidly advance and Chinese manufacturers climb the learning curve.
Meanwhile, American manufacturers will lazily enjoy comfortable margins guaranteed by the protectionist tariffs without needing to make meaningful investments in new technology. They will fall even further behind and become even less competitive. But the American people will be told--truthfully--that if they do not continue buying overpriced, technically inferior vehicles, the entire domestic auto industry will fall, with dire consequences for thousands of American workers.
We bailed out the auto industry in 2008. The bipartisan tariffs on Chinese EVs is effectively another giant domestic auto industry bailout at great cost to American consumers, though they by and large are oblivious to this. But an argument could have been made that these tariffs were a necessary and temporary measure to give the US auto industry time and space to catch up to their foreign competition. With this change, these tariffs will need to be a permanent ball and chain on the American consumer. The US auto industry will never be able to exist without them.
Meanwhile, American manufacturers will lazily enjoy comfortable margins guaranteed by the protectionist tariffs without needing to make meaningful investments in new technology. They will fall even further behind and become even less competitive. But the American people will be told--truthfully--that if they do not continue buying overpriced, technically inferior vehicles, the entire domestic auto industry will fall, with dire consequences for thousands of American workers.
We bailed out the auto industry in 2008. The bipartisan tariffs on Chinese EVs is effectively another giant domestic auto industry bailout at great cost to American consumers, though they by and large are oblivious to this. But an argument could have been made that these tariffs were a necessary and temporary measure to give the US auto industry time and space to catch up to their foreign competition. With this change, these tariffs will need to be a permanent ball and chain on the American consumer. The US auto industry will never be able to exist without them.
> There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs.
As an example, Australia has lifted many of the import barriers to entry to the car market and is flooded (in a good way) with cheap, reliable, and safe electric vehicles. US cars, once heavily dominating under local branding, are vanishingly rare (except in the "light truck wanker" marketplace).
As an example, Australia has lifted many of the import barriers to entry to the car market and is flooded (in a good way) with cheap, reliable, and safe electric vehicles. US cars, once heavily dominating under local branding, are vanishingly rare (except in the "light truck wanker" marketplace).
I thought wanker was only used in England, is it used in Australia too ?
What is a light truck wanker market?
Selling Rams to people who do not require a huge vehicle, on the basis that the vehicle is loud and intimidating to other road users.
It’s mostly because vehicles are supporting war machine infrastructure. That’s why EU is doing the same. Australia has no industry here to protect.
Do ICE cars come with ICE enforcement built in?
Considering the recent ICE raid on the electric car factory, I’d say it’s at least within their agenda.
They're not gonna un-learn the expertise that results in nearly every fuel molecule combining with oxygen and turning into marketable power and fuel economy numbers. That just makes no sense.
Where they'll save money is chasing edge cases like cold start in certain ambient conditions, during shift points and whatnot. Most people don't really appreciate how much effort goes into emissions compliance in those sorts of transient conditions.
Where they'll save money is chasing edge cases like cold start in certain ambient conditions, during shift points and whatnot. Most people don't really appreciate how much effort goes into emissions compliance in those sorts of transient conditions.
That is the real question to me. Surely ramping production of gas cars at the expense of a slower adoption of EV technology is a step backwards in the global market? Regardless of what you think of the EV regulations, isn't the underlying problem that local car manufacturers are simply not competitive?
EU car manufacturers have the same conundrum too as far as I know.
EU car manufacturers have the same conundrum too as far as I know.
Yeah, honestly I don’t know how to look at these news other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs that I keep seeing in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them.
> other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs
Or, to put it in another way; better and cheaper options for consumers.
> in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them.
Not every country needs a local car industry. Having a small number of efficient manufacturing countries means that everyone (both the consumers and the manufacturing countries) are better off.
As a non-American, there is nothing special or magical about the US economy besides its size. American cars are generally sub-standard and are increasingly unpopular in my country as they are either too large/loud or saddled with US politics.
Or, to put it in another way; better and cheaper options for consumers.
> in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them.
Not every country needs a local car industry. Having a small number of efficient manufacturing countries means that everyone (both the consumers and the manufacturing countries) are better off.
As a non-American, there is nothing special or magical about the US economy besides its size. American cars are generally sub-standard and are increasingly unpopular in my country as they are either too large/loud or saddled with US politics.
I agree with you completely. But reality is, when you have large X industry, there will be pressure to protect it at all costs — politically and economically speaking. How will that protectionism work, and whether consumers will be fed up with it to the point to throw the industry under the bus? That’s a different question.
Some of it is about maximizing their balance sheet.
The factories that existing ICE engines are made in, both their build and every retooling has a cost; being able to maximize the saleable product from that cost is in the best interests of the balance sheet.
This is a challenge for both the US as well as Japan which is why you see each doing different weird things to try and kick the can down the road or ignore it. But that's a deeper part of the rabbit hole.
The factories that existing ICE engines are made in, both their build and every retooling has a cost; being able to maximize the saleable product from that cost is in the best interests of the balance sheet.
This is a challenge for both the US as well as Japan which is why you see each doing different weird things to try and kick the can down the road or ignore it. But that's a deeper part of the rabbit hole.
Do US-market Ford/Chevy/Ram/Jeeps do significant numbers internationally as-is?
Canada, would be my guess. They also do significant numbers in central and south america - but that is 12+ year old used cars. Still important because used car values drive upgrades all down the line, but not much a concern otherwise.
Lots of people don’t want EVs
That's not the point and it's also irrelevant. People don't buy a car because they have a love of gas or electricity; they buy what works and is affordable. Chinese EVs are getting more range, have more software and safety features and are becoming cheaper and cheaper to buy. They are competition even to gas cars now. What form of energy the engine consumes is irrelevant here.
It’s relevant if the drivetrain is part of your identity. People like the vroom vroom. I drive an EV but I’m not about to ban others from driving what they want.
It doesn't have to be part of your identity.
Maybe you live in an apartment where you can't charge overnight. Or don't have many options for fast charging. Or you drive enough that the range is an issue and you don't want to plan around that or have to own a second car for long trips.
There are many places and use cases where EVs work great. And there are many where they do not.
Edit: and I'll add, that the fraction of EV owners for whom the car is part of their identity likely much larger than for ICE vehicle owners, though the relative sizes of each pool probably affects this. EVs are still in the early adopter phase in many/most areas.
Maybe you live in an apartment where you can't charge overnight. Or don't have many options for fast charging. Or you drive enough that the range is an issue and you don't want to plan around that or have to own a second car for long trips.
There are many places and use cases where EVs work great. And there are many where they do not.
Edit: and I'll add, that the fraction of EV owners for whom the car is part of their identity likely much larger than for ICE vehicle owners, though the relative sizes of each pool probably affects this. EVs are still in the early adopter phase in many/most areas.
Those are good, actual points against EVs.
I should have added hybrids in my original comment.
I should have added hybrids in my original comment.
They are also sold below cost for a reason. lol
I just bought a new car.
Really wanted an EV, especially a newer depreciated Tesla, but I just can’t get past the idea of what the car will be in 12 or 15 years. My prior car was a 2005 CRV.
Ended up going with a Corolla hybrid. Gets over 50 mpg and travels a lot under electric power. I think chances are pretty good it’ll still be viable transportation after a decade.
Really wanted an EV, especially a newer depreciated Tesla, but I just can’t get past the idea of what the car will be in 12 or 15 years. My prior car was a 2005 CRV.
Ended up going with a Corolla hybrid. Gets over 50 mpg and travels a lot under electric power. I think chances are pretty good it’ll still be viable transportation after a decade.
All while killing brand (Voldemort) that actually is desired around the world
This is a smart move based on how far behind the US grid is in supporting EV charging.
People without homes still have no convenient charging means due to Biden’s amazing skill of spending on infrastructure.
People without homes still have no convenient charging means due to Biden’s amazing skill of spending on infrastructure.
all they can do is maybe make some cars that currently are non-compliant but they will only do that if the jigs are still around and in good shape. They will not invest millions recreating worn out jigs that are not compliant and thus at risk of being useless whet the rules change again.
manufactures want consistency and predictability of policy because they have to make long term investments. This looks short term and so while they might take advantage it doesn't change much and in turn doesn't save much if anything.