Ask HN: I'm 19. Should I leave my education for my startup?
63 comments
> I'm not 100% sure if I want to leave my education.
> But I want to be a founder at the same time and
> I think that this startup has a lot of potential.
> What should I do?
Unless you personally have some idea that you just cannot get out of your head and you spend every waking moment on it and its getting traction like crazy and already making you enough money to pay your school bills, and even when you're in class you're thinking about ways to boost sales and new product ideas, stay in school and finish your degree.
I can predict, and be probabilistically accurate, that the startup that you're considering is going to fail. Or worse, get just enough traction to be acqui-hired where you will then be discriminated against at the hiring company because you don't have a college degree. Finish your degree.
One of the biggest challenges you will face early on is that you don't know enough to know what is and what isn't important. You have to make guesses. Don't stress it, everyone does, but having a CS degree on your resume will help you more through out your career than having "dropped out of school to work at failed startup X". Finish your degree.
Think about what it looks like when you are 29 looking back at your choices at 19. These are the choices :
1) Got their CS degree at 21 - went on to ...
2) Dropped out of school to work at <x> which failed
3) Dropped out of school to work at <x> which was later acquired by <y>.
4) Dropped out of school to work at <x> which made the front page of the Wall St Journal when they crossed a $100B valuation in just 5 years.
Guess what #4 isn't going to happen. #3 is the next least likely, #2 is the most likely, #1 is completely within your control and guaranteed. Go for the sure thing, get your degree.
Trust maths. Read, re-read what this dude says. You can work on your startup simultaneously as you study and get your degree.
That's what probably says, that's what we say here... because... you asked us.
Looking back in the future, if you did drop out and became the next Zuckerberg, still in retrospect our response remains the same.
FINISH YOUR DEGREE!
FINISH YOUR DEGREE!
Even as a guy whose done very well for himself with out a degree, finish that degree, the degree is not about CS, it's about making contacts, and getting VISAs. Listen to Chuck.
Second, sign the fucking document, if the startup is successful great, if not bail on the fucker and finish your degree. If there are no metrics for success even better, if they insist that there are metrics use "going concern" which means that if the business stopped taking revenue that day that it could survive for 2 years with out making any cuts. (Most startups fail this test giving you leeway to leave)
Second, sign the fucking document, if the startup is successful great, if not bail on the fucker and finish your degree. If there are no metrics for success even better, if they insist that there are metrics use "going concern" which means that if the business stopped taking revenue that day that it could survive for 2 years with out making any cuts. (Most startups fail this test giving you leeway to leave)
I can't up vote this enough. I've worked for three startups - two of which failed fast and the other which lingered on and was always about to "make it big." I had dropped out of college and by the time you're on your third fail and looking for a job you realize nobody cares at that point how many failed startups you've worked for and all the cool, leading-edge, things you were doing. All they care about is you don't have a degree.
Don't worry though - you'll find someone to take a chance on you. After all good developers are hard to find, and they're going to underpay you anyway because you don't have a degree.
That's when you're going to go back to school. Now it's going to be a lot harder than it was the first time, at least it was for me. You'll probably be married (I was). Probably have a mortgage (I did). In other words, up and quitting your job so you can become a full-time student probably isn't going to be an option. So you're going to take morning and evening classes. You're not going to have your pick of the classes either - you're going to settle for classes you need to graduate that's offered at a time you can take them. Oh and group projects are going to be a real bear. Trust me on that one. Hang in there, you'll get your degree. But it won't be all it could have been due to all the concessions you've been forced to make along the way.
My own son is starting his Sophomore year in college as a Math & Computer Science double major and he's about to turn 19 in a few weeks. By the way he was 3 when I graduated - he attended my graduation. I'll give you the same advice I've given him. One, computer science isn't enough. You really need the math. Software development is much more a commodity skill than it used to be and now the key differentiator is your mathematical and analysis skills. Two, be thinking about an advanced degree, not just stopping after your undergraduate education. Three, you need to be doing internships and working on interesting problems during your education. Finally, when you graduate you'll have the skills and know-how to make a startup succeed and you'll have plenty experience to allow you to derive creative solutions to problems.
Good luck!
Don't worry though - you'll find someone to take a chance on you. After all good developers are hard to find, and they're going to underpay you anyway because you don't have a degree.
That's when you're going to go back to school. Now it's going to be a lot harder than it was the first time, at least it was for me. You'll probably be married (I was). Probably have a mortgage (I did). In other words, up and quitting your job so you can become a full-time student probably isn't going to be an option. So you're going to take morning and evening classes. You're not going to have your pick of the classes either - you're going to settle for classes you need to graduate that's offered at a time you can take them. Oh and group projects are going to be a real bear. Trust me on that one. Hang in there, you'll get your degree. But it won't be all it could have been due to all the concessions you've been forced to make along the way.
My own son is starting his Sophomore year in college as a Math & Computer Science double major and he's about to turn 19 in a few weeks. By the way he was 3 when I graduated - he attended my graduation. I'll give you the same advice I've given him. One, computer science isn't enough. You really need the math. Software development is much more a commodity skill than it used to be and now the key differentiator is your mathematical and analysis skills. Two, be thinking about an advanced degree, not just stopping after your undergraduate education. Three, you need to be doing internships and working on interesting problems during your education. Finally, when you graduate you'll have the skills and know-how to make a startup succeed and you'll have plenty experience to allow you to derive creative solutions to problems.
Good luck!
Please note that dropping out of school and going back later is also a choice. I am appalled that many people tend to dismiss this alternate path. College will not go anywhere. It'll be there to go back to if your startup fails and if you really need to get a degree then.
Ehh... that's true, strictly speaking, but a bit glib in practice.
Sure, I know several people who went back and finished their degree, taking night classes in their late-20's or 30's or whatever. However, those people had to BUST THEIR ASSES to make it happen. It required several times more effort than it would have to simply complete it in the first place when you're young and untethered.
The more you age, and the more responsibilities you take on in terms of job, rent/mortgage, marriage/family, etc... the harder and harder it is to make room for night classes (much less becoming voluntarily unemployed, and forgoing salary to return to school full-time). College is a window. It never completely shuts, but the open space does slowly close over time.
Sure, I know several people who went back and finished their degree, taking night classes in their late-20's or 30's or whatever. However, those people had to BUST THEIR ASSES to make it happen. It required several times more effort than it would have to simply complete it in the first place when you're young and untethered.
The more you age, and the more responsibilities you take on in terms of job, rent/mortgage, marriage/family, etc... the harder and harder it is to make room for night classes (much less becoming voluntarily unemployed, and forgoing salary to return to school full-time). College is a window. It never completely shuts, but the open space does slowly close over time.
But at the same time it's a chicken egg problem for many people. Not having money to attend a uni is a big problem for a lot of us. I and my family simply did not have the $$$ to take the chance. And i am talking about actual living expenditures as the education is "free" here.
The same problems apply to starting a startup later in your life though. I personally think navigating the degree game with those problems is easier than navigating a startup with them.
^^ Just listen to this guy and go do your homework.
[deleted]
Can't answer, but can give you some perspective:
1. Most startups fail. That's true of funded startups; indeed, it's true of startups with institutional A and B rounds!
2. Most teams have a story they tell themselves about why they're different than all the other doomed startups. The story might be valid. Or maybe not. Either way: the existence of the story doesn't predict anything. Story or no, in the metaphorical poker game of business, every new startup is a jack-high hand, at best. Don't kid yourself that you're holding even a middle pair.
3. There's a narrative about how easy it is to start a startup in your 20s that is, I think, mostly bullshit. I've been doing startups non-stop since I was 18, got married & had first kid at 21, and, coming up on 17 years with my partner (both life & biz), am now on my Nth startup.
4. There's another narrative about how easy it is to go to school when you're 18-21. That narrative is not bullshit. It is very, very hard to collect college credits once your real life starts.
5. No matter what you do, unless you get much luckier than most of us, you will always have a gnawing concern that life is passing you by or that you're missing opportunities. If you're going to be a startup person, you are going to become over-sensitized to opportunity costs. The feeling that you must jump on "this" precise opportunity is almost always going to be wrong.
Keep that stuff in mind when you make the decision.
1. Most startups fail. That's true of funded startups; indeed, it's true of startups with institutional A and B rounds!
2. Most teams have a story they tell themselves about why they're different than all the other doomed startups. The story might be valid. Or maybe not. Either way: the existence of the story doesn't predict anything. Story or no, in the metaphorical poker game of business, every new startup is a jack-high hand, at best. Don't kid yourself that you're holding even a middle pair.
3. There's a narrative about how easy it is to start a startup in your 20s that is, I think, mostly bullshit. I've been doing startups non-stop since I was 18, got married & had first kid at 21, and, coming up on 17 years with my partner (both life & biz), am now on my Nth startup.
4. There's another narrative about how easy it is to go to school when you're 18-21. That narrative is not bullshit. It is very, very hard to collect college credits once your real life starts.
5. No matter what you do, unless you get much luckier than most of us, you will always have a gnawing concern that life is passing you by or that you're missing opportunities. If you're going to be a startup person, you are going to become over-sensitized to opportunity costs. The feeling that you must jump on "this" precise opportunity is almost always going to be wrong.
Keep that stuff in mind when you make the decision.
Do not quit your degree! The founders do not have your best interests at heart, their minds are focused on the success of the venture. They cannot offer you a degree, whereas a degree can offer you future opportunities. Whether the appeal of the startup for you is money, fame, or sincere deep passion about the subject matter and advancing the technology, you will be able to pursue these in the future as well. I would completely agree with ChuckMcM about the statistical analysis too -- from a strict weighing of the odds, you are better off with a degree. I would also agree with the analysis of angersock -- he knew you were their tech person because of the position they put you in. What the crowd seems to be saying, to a person of only 19, is that one should bear in mind that the young have a tendency to prefer locally optimal decisions over globally optimal ones, and that one should compensate for that bias if they can. Echoing angersock again, unless the tangible offer on the table is mighty substantial, you should continue to invest in your education, at least until it reaches its next plateau. Good luck!!!
If you're a programmer, and it sounds like you are, then degrees DO NOT MATTER for you career wise. Your coding ability matters most and after that your actual experience in real business. If your startup does not work out and you end up looking for a job somewhere else, the startup founder experience on your resume will help more than any degree. Any of employers that you would really want to work for, like one of the million funded startups out there, will look upon you pursuing a startup fulltime as a founder, win or lose, as a million times more favorable than sticking with some lame Bachelor's degree like the other thousand applicants. You aren't leaving your education, you are leaving the chains of your institution to get a real education in a real business. Universities will always be there teaching the same old curriculum forever, finish your Bachelor's in a decade if you really think it matters at that point, you won't because it doesn't matter, but you could if you wanted and that's nice to know.
"If you're a programmer..."
There are many different kinds of programmers. If you want to hack web or phone apps for a startup, a degree may not be necessary. But if you want to work on software that requires significant algorithmic or math knowledge (e.g., building something like Photoshop or Google search), the formal knowledge that you'd get from completing a CS degree would probably be helpful. (Remember that the guys who founded Google weren't college dropouts - they were PhD students at Stanford.)
The original poster may decide after a few years that they're tired of working for startups (or startup funding may dry up), and having a CS degree would give them many more options on what kind of jobs they could get. Big companies like Google or Facebook have a tendency to hire people with degrees. A degree from a well-known university serves as a signal (whether justified or not) for quickly sorting through the huge stacks of resumes that these companies receive.
So I'd agree with the advice that others have already offered: finish the degree to keep your options open; there will be other (perhaps better) startup opportunities in a couple of years.
There are many different kinds of programmers. If you want to hack web or phone apps for a startup, a degree may not be necessary. But if you want to work on software that requires significant algorithmic or math knowledge (e.g., building something like Photoshop or Google search), the formal knowledge that you'd get from completing a CS degree would probably be helpful. (Remember that the guys who founded Google weren't college dropouts - they were PhD students at Stanford.)
The original poster may decide after a few years that they're tired of working for startups (or startup funding may dry up), and having a CS degree would give them many more options on what kind of jobs they could get. Big companies like Google or Facebook have a tendency to hire people with degrees. A degree from a well-known university serves as a signal (whether justified or not) for quickly sorting through the huge stacks of resumes that these companies receive.
So I'd agree with the advice that others have already offered: finish the degree to keep your options open; there will be other (perhaps better) startup opportunities in a couple of years.
The formal knowledge can be obtained elsewhere anyway. A degree from a well-known university is cool but most of us are not 1% and even if you get there it does not mean you can survive. Some people really hate academic soil.
Saw this[1] in TechCrunch earlier today and you may find it helpful/insightful.
> I want to be a founder
Two years down the road may seem like a long time but it flies by (e.g. it probably feels like yesterday you were in high school).
> I think that this startup has a lot of potential
Every founder thinks this but the fact is most of them fail. That doesn't mean founding a startup is a foolish endeavor - just that it should be kept in mind as inherently risky when making the decision.
> What should I do?
Since you can return to school in a year with basically no penalty (you would have "lost" a year, but you would have learned/experienced a lot of real-life stuff in the meantime) it might be worth giving it a year and seeing how it goes. Keep in mind a year may not be enough time to see if it will ultimately be successful or not - many incredibly successful companies didn't look like much at the end of their first year and many companies that fail linger on for much more than a year.
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/20/the-startup-illusion/
> I want to be a founder
Two years down the road may seem like a long time but it flies by (e.g. it probably feels like yesterday you were in high school).
> I think that this startup has a lot of potential
Every founder thinks this but the fact is most of them fail. That doesn't mean founding a startup is a foolish endeavor - just that it should be kept in mind as inherently risky when making the decision.
> What should I do?
Since you can return to school in a year with basically no penalty (you would have "lost" a year, but you would have learned/experienced a lot of real-life stuff in the meantime) it might be worth giving it a year and seeing how it goes. Keep in mind a year may not be enough time to see if it will ultimately be successful or not - many incredibly successful companies didn't look like much at the end of their first year and many companies that fail linger on for much more than a year.
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/20/the-startup-illusion/
I wrote this on the subject:
http://jacquesmattheij.com/Dropping+out+is+probably+not+for+...
'With stakes' would need to be defined as well as how strong the business is. Start-ups fail roughly 90% of the time, and there will be plenty of them to choose from when your education is completed.
Good luck with your choice!
http://jacquesmattheij.com/Dropping+out+is+probably+not+for+...
'With stakes' would need to be defined as well as how strong the business is. Start-ups fail roughly 90% of the time, and there will be plenty of them to choose from when your education is completed.
Good luck with your choice!
I really liked it, I invite every college student to read it. Thanks.
Finish school.
You're only young once. Why waste your youth working, when you have the rest of your life to work? Explore school, explore intellectual pursuits, learn things that actually interest you without the constant stress of worrying about work.
Your startup idea will likely not make any money, you have less than a 5% chance of success. Go with the numbers and enhance yourself by staying in school.
You're only young once. Why waste your youth working, when you have the rest of your life to work? Explore school, explore intellectual pursuits, learn things that actually interest you without the constant stress of worrying about work.
Your startup idea will likely not make any money, you have less than a 5% chance of success. Go with the numbers and enhance yourself by staying in school.
In general, I would recommend against it. You're 19, and you [probably] have no experience starting a company. Likely, the other founders haven't got much experience (or success) either, or they wouldn't be offering a piece of their pie to a 19 year old kid -- unless that kid was a super-genius and was the key to making the whole thing happen.
So ask yourself a few questions: Is having you on board the only way the startup will succeed? If yes, then ditch those losers and do something better. If no, then you probably should be finishing your degree as the sensible thing that normal people do.
Most "entrepreneurs" work their entire life and are far more likely to create a stomach ulcer than the next Facebook. You might say, "Mark Zukerberg was a college dropout, and he did alright" but Zuck dropped out from Harvard. Dropping out from Harvard means that he got into Harvard, and it is not the same thing as dropping out of a public university. I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't want to see you lose some very valuable years off your life because you got caught up in a pipe dream.
You didn't give a lot of detail about the start up, but this opportunity is likely small potatoes and is only exciting sounding because you are 19 and money seems a lot different to younger people.
On the flip side, this could be valuable experience for you. Take a year off, and when the company is obviously floundering, ditch them and go back to school. If the company has managed to secure a billion dollar valuation, then congrats, you'll be rich. But don't stick around for a second year if the company hasn't obviously made it by that point.
So ask yourself a few questions: Is having you on board the only way the startup will succeed? If yes, then ditch those losers and do something better. If no, then you probably should be finishing your degree as the sensible thing that normal people do.
Most "entrepreneurs" work their entire life and are far more likely to create a stomach ulcer than the next Facebook. You might say, "Mark Zukerberg was a college dropout, and he did alright" but Zuck dropped out from Harvard. Dropping out from Harvard means that he got into Harvard, and it is not the same thing as dropping out of a public university. I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't want to see you lose some very valuable years off your life because you got caught up in a pipe dream.
You didn't give a lot of detail about the start up, but this opportunity is likely small potatoes and is only exciting sounding because you are 19 and money seems a lot different to younger people.
On the flip side, this could be valuable experience for you. Take a year off, and when the company is obviously floundering, ditch them and go back to school. If the company has managed to secure a billion dollar valuation, then congrats, you'll be rich. But don't stick around for a second year if the company hasn't obviously made it by that point.
Don't trust "the founders" or their venture capitalist overlords. Put yourself and your education first.
Use your time in university to explore more than compsci; get a double major in business or design, study anthropology or archeology, learn about the last 3000 years of technology, use the university to make yourself smart and more able than you are now.
Trust yourself, you are your best investment if you take the opportunity to grow.
Use your time in university to explore more than compsci; get a double major in business or design, study anthropology or archeology, learn about the last 3000 years of technology, use the university to make yourself smart and more able than you are now.
Trust yourself, you are your best investment if you take the opportunity to grow.
Rather than telling you what to do, I'm going to ask a question you should be asking yourself. What kind of person are you? Are you the type of person who needs guidance? Or, are you the type of person who can manage your education in your own hands?
I believe your success is purely based on how you attack the challenge of success. If you can take control of your education, social life and whatever else you need to succeed then you certainly don't need college. However, if you can't do these things then you'll be making the biggest mistake of your life.
I believe your success is purely based on how you attack the challenge of success. If you can take control of your education, social life and whatever else you need to succeed then you certainly don't need college. However, if you can't do these things then you'll be making the biggest mistake of your life.
> But I have to come back to my university after that or the university will kick me out.
At least in the US (I have very little knowledge of how college works outside the US), I wouldn't let this university policy play too much into my decision. A school might make you apply for readmission, but the readmission process generally isn't all that arduous, especially if you were doing well in school before your departure and you left (and stayed away) for good reason. "I have a solid transcript, I left to work on a startup, I stayed for n years because the startup was successful, and now I want to resume my studies" would pass muster for readmission to any school I'm familiar with. If you want some bonus points, maintain your relationship with a faculty member during your absence, and ask them to put in a good word for you on your return.
And if that fails, then there are lots of other universities out there who accept transfer students.
That being said, I'm not sure I'd recommend a startup if you're not 100% sure you want to do a startup. Even if your company is successful, you're going to have moments where you want to give up. If your starting point is "maybe this startup thing isn't such a great idea," it's a lot harder to power through the trough of despair. (Also, there are the practical reasons other people have pointed out, but I'm not sure that playing your cards conservatively is always the best move).
At least in the US (I have very little knowledge of how college works outside the US), I wouldn't let this university policy play too much into my decision. A school might make you apply for readmission, but the readmission process generally isn't all that arduous, especially if you were doing well in school before your departure and you left (and stayed away) for good reason. "I have a solid transcript, I left to work on a startup, I stayed for n years because the startup was successful, and now I want to resume my studies" would pass muster for readmission to any school I'm familiar with. If you want some bonus points, maintain your relationship with a faculty member during your absence, and ask them to put in a good word for you on your return.
And if that fails, then there are lots of other universities out there who accept transfer students.
That being said, I'm not sure I'd recommend a startup if you're not 100% sure you want to do a startup. Even if your company is successful, you're going to have moments where you want to give up. If your starting point is "maybe this startup thing isn't such a great idea," it's a lot harder to power through the trough of despair. (Also, there are the practical reasons other people have pointed out, but I'm not sure that playing your cards conservatively is always the best move).
One point to consider: you want to be a founder. If you're not in the US (I can't tell if you are), and you want to be a successful founder, it is very likely you'll need to move to the US at some point. That's very hard to do without a degree. Just FYI.
On the question of whether you should leave, I think it may be helpful to think of this startup as a high school love. Imagine you're 15 or so, and just met the guy/girl of your dreams, and are infatuated. You picture yourselves being together forever, getting married, settling down and living long happy lives together. You want to drop out of high school so you can get a job so you can move in together. It'll be amazing!
Most adults will look at that story and know the answer. You're just infatuated because it's your first love. It's probably not going to work out anyway, once you do live together. There will be more loves and more opportunities.
Now to give you the other perspective. I know a bunch of people who dropped out of college to be founders or founder-ish roles. Some of them founded or joined incredible startups (Stripe is a great example), have made a meaningful impact on the world (and a bunch of money too, though it probably matters less to them).
Of course, it's very hard for you to tell which of those situations this is...
On the question of whether you should leave, I think it may be helpful to think of this startup as a high school love. Imagine you're 15 or so, and just met the guy/girl of your dreams, and are infatuated. You picture yourselves being together forever, getting married, settling down and living long happy lives together. You want to drop out of high school so you can get a job so you can move in together. It'll be amazing!
Most adults will look at that story and know the answer. You're just infatuated because it's your first love. It's probably not going to work out anyway, once you do live together. There will be more loves and more opportunities.
Now to give you the other perspective. I know a bunch of people who dropped out of college to be founders or founder-ish roles. Some of them founded or joined incredible startups (Stripe is a great example), have made a meaningful impact on the world (and a bunch of money too, though it probably matters less to them).
Of course, it's very hard for you to tell which of those situations this is...
I'm Korean and currently based in Hong Kong. And the US is definitely a place where I want to move in the long run. Thank you for your helpful point about moving to the US.
I see very few people asking what jenny_2’s long term career goals are. If your desire is more entrepreneurial then take a year off and make a decision later as to whether you go back. Things change dramatically in a year (especially in a startup) so if you commit to founders now to stick it out and decide in a year to go back to school so be it. I guarantee you their commitment to you is just as loose given you make it big.
I see this as a much simpler question of whether you are going to take a year off. All the variables for which you base that decision will change over the course of the next year so start with the first step and if you choose to leave let the rest play out over time.
In my own experience leaving school is the right choice for some. I left school for startup in the original 90’s boom and although I’m not a Zuckerberg I have had great experiences with startups successes and failures. I’ve also had no issue growing into an executive role in the valley along with a “seat at the table” where colleagues went the more traditional college route. I will however fully admit I am not the norm.
I see this as a much simpler question of whether you are going to take a year off. All the variables for which you base that decision will change over the course of the next year so start with the first step and if you choose to leave let the rest play out over time.
In my own experience leaving school is the right choice for some. I left school for startup in the original 90’s boom and although I’m not a Zuckerberg I have had great experiences with startups successes and failures. I’ve also had no issue growing into an executive role in the valley along with a “seat at the table” where colleagues went the more traditional college route. I will however fully admit I am not the norm.
Honestly there's no good answer to this. Do you like excitement, thrills, terror, and chasing opportunity at the expense of all else? That sounds like dropping out. Do you like enjoying less real world responsibility, learning in a structured environment, taking a safer path, etc.? This sounds like staying in school (if you can afford it).
One thing I can say is this... It's hard to find a wave worth riding in business. If the startup already has traction and is taking off, you may never again be in that position to enjoy that kind of excitement. If you're just hacking away at something that is more of an idea, and the only thing exciting is that someone put in some money, that is less exceptional communication in my eyes.
Whatever you do, decide for yourself. If you're seeking greatness in yourself and for those around you, chances are you'll do just fine on which ever path you choose.
Good luck to you. Now go blaze a glorious path that makes a dent in the universe, and enjoy the ride.
One thing I can say is this... It's hard to find a wave worth riding in business. If the startup already has traction and is taking off, you may never again be in that position to enjoy that kind of excitement. If you're just hacking away at something that is more of an idea, and the only thing exciting is that someone put in some money, that is less exceptional communication in my eyes.
Whatever you do, decide for yourself. If you're seeking greatness in yourself and for those around you, chances are you'll do just fine on which ever path you choose.
Good luck to you. Now go blaze a glorious path that makes a dent in the universe, and enjoy the ride.
So, you have a year the university will give you, and a year the other founders will give you.
So, go to school for another year, and then if the startup is doing well, take senior year off--you can always go and finish later (like, credits are usually good up to five years).
That seems to be the most conservative/least risky approach.
You wouldn't by chance be their tech person, would you?
So, go to school for another year, and then if the startup is doing well, take senior year off--you can always go and finish later (like, credits are usually good up to five years).
That seems to be the most conservative/least risky approach.
You wouldn't by chance be their tech person, would you?
The founders want me to join now and take a year leave from uni. And after a year, if the startup is still going good then they want me to leave my education as a founder.
I also happen to be the tech person. But I'm not the only one. So they can still survive without me.
I also happen to be the tech person. But I'm not the only one. So they can still survive without me.
> And after a year, if the startup is still going good then they want me to leave my education as a founder.
Alarm bells ringing here. They are probably well meaning and honest, but the potential impact in the event they're not can be horrible.
You'll want it iron clad in writing now what you'll get after a year and how it is structured.
You want to make sure it's done in a tax efficient way. There are several complications here: If they award you shares or options after a year, you either lose out on the value increase in that year, or you risk getting taxed on the different between whatever price they offer it to you at and the market value in a year. If you're putting your education on hold now, presumably you would like to gain from the potential increase in value over the coming year. Especially as most startups never reach the dizzying heights of multi-billion dollar valuations and the biggest multiples on valuation you might see might very well come in the coming year.
Depending on jurisdiction there are many ways to protect both your interests (getting part of the value increase over the coming year, and avoid excessive taxes) and theirs (making sure you don't run off after getting your shares, and ensuring you have strong reasons to stay). E.g. an option plan starting now with a "cliff" that means the first chunk doesn't vest until a year from now (though options are tax inefficient most places), or letting you buy shares now (at presumably rock bottom valuation) with some claw-back provisions if you leave before certain conditions are met.
The only way of knowing what'll be best for you is to make sure to talk to a lawyer and/or accountant versed in local tax law. Many places will be willing to give you an initial consultation for free or a low fee, and will be able to at least advice you what they think will be feasible to achieve before you need to commit to paying more to actually sort out the paperwork.
(If the current founders are not willing to work with you to get proper paper work in place, run for the hills - in that case they likely have no intention of honouring whatever they've talked to you about; if everything is above board, a proper agreement will safeguard their interests as much as yours)
Alarm bells ringing here. They are probably well meaning and honest, but the potential impact in the event they're not can be horrible.
You'll want it iron clad in writing now what you'll get after a year and how it is structured.
You want to make sure it's done in a tax efficient way. There are several complications here: If they award you shares or options after a year, you either lose out on the value increase in that year, or you risk getting taxed on the different between whatever price they offer it to you at and the market value in a year. If you're putting your education on hold now, presumably you would like to gain from the potential increase in value over the coming year. Especially as most startups never reach the dizzying heights of multi-billion dollar valuations and the biggest multiples on valuation you might see might very well come in the coming year.
Depending on jurisdiction there are many ways to protect both your interests (getting part of the value increase over the coming year, and avoid excessive taxes) and theirs (making sure you don't run off after getting your shares, and ensuring you have strong reasons to stay). E.g. an option plan starting now with a "cliff" that means the first chunk doesn't vest until a year from now (though options are tax inefficient most places), or letting you buy shares now (at presumably rock bottom valuation) with some claw-back provisions if you leave before certain conditions are met.
The only way of knowing what'll be best for you is to make sure to talk to a lawyer and/or accountant versed in local tax law. Many places will be willing to give you an initial consultation for free or a low fee, and will be able to at least advice you what they think will be feasible to achieve before you need to commit to paying more to actually sort out the paperwork.
(If the current founders are not willing to work with you to get proper paper work in place, run for the hills - in that case they likely have no intention of honouring whatever they've talked to you about; if everything is above board, a proper agreement will safeguard their interests as much as yours)
Unless they have a very strong offer on the table, and the business is really good, disrupting your education is maybe not a great idea. Good luck either way!
Don't trust their motives. It's more likely they want you because they can take advantage of you (due to inexperience) than anything else.
I used to be in a similar situation, asked to join a startup as a founding member just after starting my school in automation engineering. Graduated in 2007.
Then I didn't really understand the meaning of going to school, but I was naive. Now as I look back, I can say going to school and graduating was some of the nicest time in my life, not having to work full time and being able to take days off from studying when I felt like it and meeting friends. And most importantly learning engineering skills like physics and math I wouldn't have had the interest to learn by myself.
These skills and understandings have come really handy later, and have made the basis for the work I've been doing independently now later.
So my suggestion is to graduate. You can have the time to worry about working with software and "real life" for the rest of your life, enjoy studying while you can !
Then I didn't really understand the meaning of going to school, but I was naive. Now as I look back, I can say going to school and graduating was some of the nicest time in my life, not having to work full time and being able to take days off from studying when I felt like it and meeting friends. And most importantly learning engineering skills like physics and math I wouldn't have had the interest to learn by myself.
These skills and understandings have come really handy later, and have made the basis for the work I've been doing independently now later.
So my suggestion is to graduate. You can have the time to worry about working with software and "real life" for the rest of your life, enjoy studying while you can !
Get your degree.
I personally think that the tertiary educational system is broken so far as CS goes. However, a DEGREE OPENS DOORS: many more doors than that one single partnership.
That's coming from a guy who left his degree for a job. Despite being one of the most senior devs at a $200M still stares at closed doors on a daily basis.
I personally think that the tertiary educational system is broken so far as CS goes. However, a DEGREE OPENS DOORS: many more doors than that one single partnership.
That's coming from a guy who left his degree for a job. Despite being one of the most senior devs at a $200M still stares at closed doors on a daily basis.
Given that most start-ups fail, there is necessarily an element of gamble in doing one, and the classic advice 'only gamble what you can afford to lose' is classic for a reason.
Thus, when thinking of doing a start-up, ask yourself: in the reasonably likely event that the start-up fails, are you okay with that outcome?
If you end up in a couple of years time with neither the start-up nor a degree, are you okay with that?
If your answer is 'yes, sure, there's plenty more to life than start-ups and degrees' then by all means go for it.
If your answer is 'hell no, I really want at least one!' then play it safe.
Thus, when thinking of doing a start-up, ask yourself: in the reasonably likely event that the start-up fails, are you okay with that outcome?
If you end up in a couple of years time with neither the start-up nor a degree, are you okay with that?
If your answer is 'yes, sure, there's plenty more to life than start-ups and degrees' then by all means go for it.
If your answer is 'hell no, I really want at least one!' then play it safe.
I won't go into details, I'll just tell you I hate college, yet I do the logical thing and keep going. Just make yourself a favor and finish, it's only two years. Don't you think, than in the next half century, you will be be founder of something awesome? Do you really think this will be your only chance? Do you really want to gamble your future, for the low equity they are going to offer you?
I don't have the insider info you have! So finally I'll tell you this, do a list of pros and cons, be truthful, analyze it and decide. Good luck with your choice.
I don't have the insider info you have! So finally I'll tell you this, do a list of pros and cons, be truthful, analyze it and decide. Good luck with your choice.
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I started working for a startup when I was your age and had two years of my degree left. Luckily, they were happy for me to work part-time. The company ran out of runway shortly after I graduated and was acquired (for peanuts, as far as I was aware). I didn't realise this at the time but this is a far more common outcome for a startup (failing, rather than making it big). With the benefit of hindsight, I'm glad I have my degree.
My advice for you? Make sure you earn your degree. You will have further opportunities to found a startup.
My advice for you? Make sure you earn your degree. You will have further opportunities to found a startup.
Finish your degree. Other opportunities will come along, and there's a good change you will choose to do something else after finishing school (nonprofits, research, public service etc.)
There's no reason this company can't make you a founder with a year cliff. When you hit your year mark you can decide at that time if the company is worth remaining at relative to school, and if not, continue on with your education. Forcing the question right now does neither of you any favors. I wouldn't assume that the founders are being disingenuous, but simply don't see this pretty reasonable (and probably better) alternative.
Important detail, are you paying for your education yourself? Did you take out loans? Are your parents paying for all of it?
If you can start a lucrative career (regardless of whether this particular startup succeeds or not) without paying the insane price tag on a degree, it's certainly worth considering.
I dropped out when I was 19 and it was a good decision, YMMV
If you can start a lucrative career (regardless of whether this particular startup succeeds or not) without paying the insane price tag on a degree, it's certainly worth considering.
I dropped out when I was 19 and it was a good decision, YMMV
Can you do part time? I've been doing half a week of work and half a week of studying at university for the last 5 years. It's hard to manage sometimes, but it was totally worth it. Since I've also been upfront with everyone, they all knew that I just couldn't make some meetings or lectures and were okay with it.
HERE, I did that if it is a good startup it can help, but... You have to Know the Truth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKFteasqocM Watch this and follow the OpenWest.org
Finishing your education is the better option given a long-term perspective. You can always join a startup after you're done with school. At least you'll have something valuable even if the startup fails.
Depending on the company's idea, execution and plans for revenue, absolutely go for it.
You will learn far more being an exec at an early startup than you will sitting in a classroom.
Don't do it. I left universitet for job and now I can't leave this f*ing country (Russia) because every country requires "degree" for visa, even for crappy positions.
I have several friends who completed the 8 years bachelor's degree with zero dept.
Anyone who forces you to choose (before you have completed your first degree) is trying to take advantage of you.
Anyone who forces you to choose (before you have completed your first degree) is trying to take advantage of you.
Seems to me you might be kicking yourself for years if you don't take this opportunity while its available. Hate to say it, but school will be there should it not work out.
No. Stay in school. You have a better shot at success!
I think it's a great idea to take a gap year halfway through college. If it works out, great and if not, you finish your degree.
Education.
After two years, you haven't yet got to the good part of your major yet.
Startups are a dice roll with bad odds. There will always be another.
After two years, you haven't yet got to the good part of your major yet.
Startups are a dice roll with bad odds. There will always be another.
Just do both. Take fewer courses.
If you listen to everyone here, they'll ask you to finish school. That is the safe bet and "prudent" choice.
If you want to be a founder, you'll never be comfortable taking the "safe" route. Go for it. Do it when you're young and you're able to take risk. No regrets, whichever path you take. Good luck.
If you want to be a founder, you'll never be comfortable taking the "safe" route. Go for it. Do it when you're young and you're able to take risk. No regrets, whichever path you take. Good luck.
She can do it when she is young after finishing the degree. She will still be young at 21 and she will still be able to afford risk at that point. The other thing to note is that people found companies at all sorts of ages. If she has that founder spirit, she will find a way.
And you know zero about her/his background. She/he is korean meaning that the society puts a lot of pressure at her and mostly her life / career has already been predetermined which i have to say is fucking unimaginable for a lot of people.
She wants to change that and take a risk and explore the endless possibilities. Do you know what does it mean to finish the degree in Korea ?
I stand corrected. Am I to understand that finishing a degree actually closes doors as opposed to opens them in Korea? That a degree earned in Korea is not worth much elsewhere? And that in two years she will have further cemented a life that she is doomed to live? If so, then I would have thought that she would have no desire to finish the degree and would not be conflicted to begin with. But you are right that I do not fully know the circumstances and should not be eager to dispense advice. Maybe she wants to finish the degree for the sake of someone else, though there was no mention of this. I was assuming a "she" due to "jenny" but it could be a "he". I would love to learn more about the tradeoffs in Korea. Given the long term desire to be based in the states, you and I are making an excellent point -- it is worth considering that people outside Korea may not be fully aware of the tradeoffs. In my defense, the question was directed at a global forum without the context being fully presented initially...
Dropping out now is like driving around without a seatbelt for the rest of your life.
No, although there are lots of counter examples. Go faster and get a phd quicker.
I left university at 19, and I don't regret it. A couple of caveats.
I posted elsewhere regarding paperwork. Make sure the offer is what it sounds like. If you give up your degree and end up getting shafted, it'll not be fun.
Secondly, it depends on your school, frankly. If you're in a top tier school, your odds of long term success by staying and building a personal network may very well be great enough to not be worth risking even if this startup seems very attractive.
On the other hand, if your schools CS program is relatively unknown, then it frankly doesn't matter much. If you see the need for a degree later, ask yourself: Can you find somewhere in your current schools league to finish a degree? The reality is that outside the top tier of recognised names, nobody cares much what school is on your degree unless the interviewer/hiring manager happened to study there. In that case, consider the "risk" of not being able to re-enter your current program as pretty minimal: It will cost you some time, and maybe a bit of money if you belatedly decide you need to finish your degree, but it won't cost you a high value degree.
I'd be inclined to recommend to take the year for the value of the experience, but think long and hard about whether to go on after that year. It greatly depends on the success criteria the founders want for you to commit to stay on after the year. If the success criteria means you'll be able to put a good title in a (by then) high value business on your resume, nobody might ever ask about university again. But if their success criteria means you'll stay on in a ok but unknown business that's not growing very much, you should be much more careful.
For my part, I never went back. My first startup didn't do great, but it taught me more about business, sales, accounting as well as technical subjects than I ever thought I could learn in that short a time (or ever had any desire to learn, in the case of busines, sales and accounting...). It lead directly to getting high value (at the time) contracting jobs, as well as being hired into a senior developer job at 23 (at the recommendation of the lawyer of the guy that invested in our first business) that got me poached into a director of technology job at 24, and led to me meeting the people I co-founded my first VC funded startup with at 25.
At 28, I went back and did a degree via distance learning, and I now hold a MSc. But at the time, the only reason I did so was that the job market was weak, and I basically wanted to dot the i's and ensure I had a degree to put on my resume "just in case". In the years until I was 28, my lack of a degree never came up as I moved from place to place by virtue of personal relationships and never went through any formal interviews. In the years since it's mainly come up as a curiosity ("so how come you finished your degree after you'd gotten that much experience?" "oh, you know, just wanted to make sure I win the keyword bingo with recruiters in times when the job market is tough", pretty much, and that's it).
Of course, that worked because my first startup set me on a trajectory that gave me lots of experience quickly. If you do leave school, the one key thing to make sure of is to set firm goals for yourself for where you want to get and make sure you do go back to school the moment lack of that degree becomes a hindrance to getting where you want. E.g. if the startup is doing ok but not great, you need to think long and hard about whether or not it will give you enough experience and clout to compensate for lack of a degree.
I posted elsewhere regarding paperwork. Make sure the offer is what it sounds like. If you give up your degree and end up getting shafted, it'll not be fun.
Secondly, it depends on your school, frankly. If you're in a top tier school, your odds of long term success by staying and building a personal network may very well be great enough to not be worth risking even if this startup seems very attractive.
On the other hand, if your schools CS program is relatively unknown, then it frankly doesn't matter much. If you see the need for a degree later, ask yourself: Can you find somewhere in your current schools league to finish a degree? The reality is that outside the top tier of recognised names, nobody cares much what school is on your degree unless the interviewer/hiring manager happened to study there. In that case, consider the "risk" of not being able to re-enter your current program as pretty minimal: It will cost you some time, and maybe a bit of money if you belatedly decide you need to finish your degree, but it won't cost you a high value degree.
I'd be inclined to recommend to take the year for the value of the experience, but think long and hard about whether to go on after that year. It greatly depends on the success criteria the founders want for you to commit to stay on after the year. If the success criteria means you'll be able to put a good title in a (by then) high value business on your resume, nobody might ever ask about university again. But if their success criteria means you'll stay on in a ok but unknown business that's not growing very much, you should be much more careful.
For my part, I never went back. My first startup didn't do great, but it taught me more about business, sales, accounting as well as technical subjects than I ever thought I could learn in that short a time (or ever had any desire to learn, in the case of busines, sales and accounting...). It lead directly to getting high value (at the time) contracting jobs, as well as being hired into a senior developer job at 23 (at the recommendation of the lawyer of the guy that invested in our first business) that got me poached into a director of technology job at 24, and led to me meeting the people I co-founded my first VC funded startup with at 25.
At 28, I went back and did a degree via distance learning, and I now hold a MSc. But at the time, the only reason I did so was that the job market was weak, and I basically wanted to dot the i's and ensure I had a degree to put on my resume "just in case". In the years until I was 28, my lack of a degree never came up as I moved from place to place by virtue of personal relationships and never went through any formal interviews. In the years since it's mainly come up as a curiosity ("so how come you finished your degree after you'd gotten that much experience?" "oh, you know, just wanted to make sure I win the keyword bingo with recruiters in times when the job market is tough", pretty much, and that's it).
Of course, that worked because my first startup set me on a trajectory that gave me lots of experience quickly. If you do leave school, the one key thing to make sure of is to set firm goals for yourself for where you want to get and make sure you do go back to school the moment lack of that degree becomes a hindrance to getting where you want. E.g. if the startup is doing ok but not great, you need to think long and hard about whether or not it will give you enough experience and clout to compensate for lack of a degree.
Are you korean studying in Hong Kong or in Korea ? Well i would say it does not matter anyway. People commenting here are mostly americans or europeans so they do not know about the education system in Korea. I would say do not go for the degree. Do not waste the talent and time. Most of Asian universities will suck up your soul.
Earn the money and go to uni in states or in europe.
Earn the money and go to uni in states or in europe.
The founders want me to join as a founder as well with stakes. But on the condition that I leave my education after a year if the company is successful by then. Otherwise, I can join as an employee for as long as I want.
I'm not 100% sure if I want to leave my education. But I want to be a founder at the same time and I think that this startup has a lot of potential. What should I do?