Agree - Tesla taps the passion of the die hard enthusiasts. The range and performance of the Model S is comparatively exceptional to that of the Volt and Leaf. Model S is sexy and exciting and I WANT to drive it, I don't simply concede to drive it as a best option.
Assuming you mean an article on the subject of scraping from an unbiased source, I think you'll have a difficult time finding one. If someone is going to trouble themselves to write any type of article, they probably don't want it scraped.
Sorry for the delay, Vaskel! Had a bit of traveling to do these past few days. I went from Chicago to Atlanta for my Father's wedding - what a to-do, great fun. (TMI? :) )
In our eyes 10mpg is a huge savings. Couple that with efficiency gains by utilizing lightweight materials, and boost that with a clean diesel with reduced emissions; for Local Motors, this is the way to move forward. We are not looking for a one-time solution and we will get better as time goes on. With each step, with each vehicle we can only hope to improve with each iteration.
Your views are well heard, and we are aware that many share your views on the type of engine which would be easiest to use and manipulate. If we have made a mistake and the 335d is too difficult, the Rally Fighter is fit for 2 other engine opitons - among those is a plain ol' gasoline engine. Not our favorite option, but we do hear you.
Laughed about the bat shit crazy ex girlfriend. Thank you for that :)
Your words, "Give the people a choice" hits home. The open development process at local-motors.com is exactly that - a forum for participation and choice. While we can digest what you say in this space, the votes of our community members and dedicated participants are the votes and voices we follow. We want your voice to be heard. If you would prefer to wait for a vehicle that is more personal, one that you would use and have a personal vested interest in, I understand. I don't think the desert racing segment is your cup o' tea. But your opinion is so valuable, so consider yourself invited to take part.
RE: "zero mainstream appeal", the segment is certainly limited and the choice is intentional. This is a segment in which we could build a product to have very clear improvements over anything else on the market. A segment that is already building cars, and a segment that is passionate like you wouldn't believe. We will build cars for the tarmac, for Jersey - but we will not, not, not build cars for the masses. Please everyone, and you will eventually please no one. The future of exciting products and cars is niche and supported by a hands-on experience. Again, time will tell as to whether we are "right". I hope you will stay close so we can hash out this conversation again as we grow, and as new niche local markets make their desires known.
I also want to note that I think all of your notes on the US auto industry and market potential are more or less right on. There is space for not only more cars in the segments you mentioned, there is also room for more car companies. I agree with you.
Trust that we have done our "homework", and our business model is viable on a local level w/ limited production for niche markets. The changes you are suggesting we make ("build for mainstream enthusiast", "target millions") would make us un-local motors - and that is not our goal.
This company and community is focused on creating a unique local experience for local enthusiasts. Your suggestions & strategy may be viable, but it is not local.
I think this could have enough uniqueness to stand on its own. You're right that the general shape of coupes or sedans is the same. But the long hood of the Fisker (and this RF coupe) is significant, and could be a brand indicator. The entire design language should be a brand indicator. I think GM had a similar thought: that a brand is a marque and a grille. They built the same cars w/ subtle changes and cannibalized Chevy and Pontiac. Not saying that is what you are doing here, but I am saying that a brand extends far beyond a grille.
The Local Motors Micro-Factory will play 3 roles: Build, Sell, & Service. BMW diesel engines are certainly understood in the aftermarket, but you are right they are more complicated. Concerning that point, Local Motors will provide service for the region surrounding the Micro-Factory - for the area where the vehicle is sold. This is an important point, so thank you for bringing it up.
We chose a more complicated engine because it is cleaner, and delivers more long-term value. We considered the SL1, but as we compared apples to apples, and presented the choice to the community, the 335d was chosen.
The trophy trucks that win Baja 1000 might spend half a million dollars. Clearly, this is not that. But for $50k you can experience Baja, the jumps, the desert of Arizona and you can learn your car inside and out. NJ is about as far from the desert as possible, but if you checkout offroad and baja forums you will see what ppl are willing to invest in their rides - $50k is an investment and it will have to be worthwhile. But in terms of the function and performance you will gain for the dollar, the Rally Fighter is quite competitive.
This is one of those things that can not be proven with words, but once we get the build process rolling in the fall we will be able to share more. At that point I hope you will help us find ways to improve the process and include more of what will make it exciting for you (like a vehicle you actually want, for instance!)
Thank you for sharing your very specific desires. I hope you will go to the site (local-motors.com) and find a body for your specs. Tell 'em you want it in Jersey!
We are building a community of engineers to work alongside the community of designers at local-motors.com. We already had one "Parts-Bin" competition to design the Rally Fighter side vent; the community chose the winner - a cohesive, functional and low-cost side-vent. As the community grows we will undertake more challenges in the engineering arena.
After the LM community & team fully develop each vehicle, some building occurs in a centralized location (like chassis welding, etc.) Then each customer joins LM experts in the Local Micro-Factory (we will build micro-factories in regions across the US, hence the "Local" :)) for the build experience & training. Vehicles are built Just-In-Time by each individual customer. This project takes two short weekends.
If you have an LM vehicle, you have a more powerful understanding of your vehicle - because you built it.
Seems crazy to crowdsource such a large physical product. But mostly we are crowdsourcing desire and ideas so that we can build only desirable cars. Local Motors has to make many decisions independently in order to make it to market in an efficient, cost-effective manner.
Can't believe there are so many car guys here! This is awesome. The first production-ready prototype will be on the ground in late summer, and will be at SEMA in November. Production (meaning individual builds) will begin in the Fall of 2010.
Including the community & local Southwest enthusiasts in the design & build process was necessary for LM to know we were bringing a desirable vehicle to market. The "opensource" aspect gained a lot of discussion early on. Now that we have incorporated the community desires in the design & engineering, we have a lot of proving to do. This is an exciting year.
The body will be composite, panels on tubular welded steel spaceframe. We will use carbonfiber and thermaplastics for the panels.
Financing anything is not as easy as it use to be. Our expectations are adjusted accordingly - we only aim to build about 3,000 in the lifetime of the vehicle, and probably only a few hundred in the first few years.
Licensing as a kit car or custom vehicle isn't as hard as you might think - primarily because the engine and other parts are OEM.
Thanks for the humbling, blunt review! Love it or hate it, at least the Rally Fighter isn't like everything else on the road. The pool of sameness can become monotonous.
I didn't see this before - your design has legs. I'm not big on the spoiler but otherwise looks to be a beautiful "baby aston" just as you said. But I do see Fisker, and I do see Aston - what about a new brand?
Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space)
All good points. Let me address each point individually:
Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available.
The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle.
Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum.
Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed “green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to consider, but these are the main points.
In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy. This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy. And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels in general.
Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others.
Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower, it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of the fun.
Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability.
You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes, but this is subjective.
Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally Fighters which will cost more than $50k.
The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 – and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona.
Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings to the table.
Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the conversation to the type of sports car you desire.
It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive (you mentioned type of vehicle, price, and powertrain) we would love for you to join the Local-Motors.com community and guide the vehicle choice process. This is what it's all about!
The Rally Fighter is certainly not "all purpose" and does not satisfy my craving for a race car either. For off-roaders who either want to get into desert racing, or already do it, the vehicle makes sense - in some ways, maybe more sense than anything else on the market. And the idea of building it alongside an expert makes sense as well; if you are going to be out in the middle of nowhere and driving hard, it's best if you know how to take care of your vehicle yourself. Even if it just means changing a tire or building confidence in understanding the vehicle limitations, this is a cool experience for those who desire it. Again, not for everyone. And that's the point. The Local Motors experience is for the crazed car enthusiast - seems everyone knows one or two.
Electric makes great sense for some places and I'm certain that Lm will build an EV sooner than later; but for desert racing I think clean diesel is best. The choice of powertrain is based on geographic availability of alternative fuel sources, as well as use of the vehicle. You can't race Baja w/ an EV. Where would you recharge on your 2k mile trek through Ensanada? As of yet, it's not feasible. Maybe in the future.
I think it's arguable as to whether or not Local Motors should have entered the market w/ a Tesla-like sports car. But when you think of Tesla, Ron Motors, Fisker and others, do you think the playing field is a bit full? Surely there is room for others to compete at that level, but we are not at that level. We are not going to make very many Rally Fighters, and they will not be available all over the country. This is niche.
We certainly have some proving to do but we are ready for the challenge! The format is viable, and so far the community is supportive of the Rally Fighter (and there is talk of an electric Boston Bullet). Hope to hear more of your thoughts.
Thanks for spreading the word, Ivan. The $10k is for the initial design and some design development based on community desires; this number does not include engineering and development. But all in all, the outcome is vastly lower cost to market.