Ask HN: I don't like my new job, now what?
76 comments
Wanna get back to them and show them they ain't shit? Be profoundly, intolerably nice to them especially when they 'correct' you. "oh, I didn't know that! Thanks! Any books specifically you could recommend on (x subject in the news that's really their hot take)?"
Then, at month 10-11 of working there, begin looking for a new job immediately.
Then, at month 10-11 of working there, begin looking for a new job immediately.
I can also confirm that this is the correct approach to take. Be unequivocally nice to them and go along with their charade. Don't let them get under your skin and things may improve.
I must agree. For what it's worth, at a previous job, I remember observing a real shift in my team's personalities after a few months. Negativity can be really contagious, and it's possible that an unshakably positive force (you) may be the cause of a greater shift.
Might be worth a shot.
Might be worth a shot.
I totally disagree. Jerk developer is always a jerk developer. Something more ... I think jerk developers are bad persons. Those are the racists guys/girls, the hotshots, the abusing coworkers people. The problem is in them ... It's not in the OP.
There is no reason for anyone in this world to tell somebody is wrong in a non-polite way . Period.
If you wanna "get back to them" you already failed. The best way that you can solve this is to find a place that doesn't allow people like this to be involved in the business.
There is no reason for anyone in this world to tell somebody is wrong in a non-polite way . Period.
If you wanna "get back to them" you already failed. The best way that you can solve this is to find a place that doesn't allow people like this to be involved in the business.
I cannot imagine doing this without coming off as a condescending ass. And "intolerably nice" sounds like a political way of calling someone phony. I would hope no one would ever call me that.
Sticking with a toxic job for a year also seems pointless. Hopping jobs constantly looks bad, but leaving one job quickly isn't a red flag if there is a reasonable track record on the resume.
Sticking with a toxic job for a year also seems pointless. Hopping jobs constantly looks bad, but leaving one job quickly isn't a red flag if there is a reasonable track record on the resume.
I don't think this is a good behavior. I think knowledge sharing is good. What if everyone keeps everything to themselves.
> Be profoundly, intolerably nice
> I don't think this is a good behavior
Being nice/personable isn't a good behavior?
> I don't think this is a good behavior
Being nice/personable isn't a good behavior?
Being unbearably nice is difficult to pull off without mocking. It's a fine line generally only walked to make a point.
I'll just add my $0.02 and say that sticking a job for a year is not necessary. I quit my first job shortly after I passed my probation - it was my first job out of university, and whilst the people weren't toxic, the work was, and the commute was hell like I have never encountered before. Right after I passed my probation things actually got worse, because then (as is normal in the UK) I had a 1-month notice period. I needed money to start paying my student loans so I'd stuck with the awful job, but once the first 3 months were up, I fell into depression. It was an extremely bleak period in my life. I was able to pull my boss to one side and talked to him at great length about the work I was doing, that I didn't feel I was contributing anything meaningful, that I was wasting my time in the job. He empathised, but there was little we could do to improve things. I looked at moving teams, but nothing appealed. We came to conclusion that the company and me were mutually incompatible. Shortly thereafter, I handed in my notice. I left at the 5-month mark.
About 6 months later, when I was feeling better, I interviewed for a job closer to home. When asked about why I was only at my first job for 5 months, I answered that I left for personal reasons. The matter wasn't pushed, but I later felt like I'd blown it. Much to my surprise, I got an offer, and a good one. I'm still at this company 2 and a half years later.
My conclusion is that no job is ever worth staying in if you don't feel like you're doing anything meaningful. If I'd tried to stick my first job for a full year, I would have topped myself. I couldn't stand working like that. I discussed the faults of my old job with my new colleagues after I started here and they understood.
As long as you're not hopping jobs every few months, you should be able to convince your interviewer it was a one-off. Don't worry about trying to work a full year in a toxic environment. Move on if you need to. At the end of the day, you can put a spin on your resume, but you can't spin your personal satisfaction with your job.
About 6 months later, when I was feeling better, I interviewed for a job closer to home. When asked about why I was only at my first job for 5 months, I answered that I left for personal reasons. The matter wasn't pushed, but I later felt like I'd blown it. Much to my surprise, I got an offer, and a good one. I'm still at this company 2 and a half years later.
My conclusion is that no job is ever worth staying in if you don't feel like you're doing anything meaningful. If I'd tried to stick my first job for a full year, I would have topped myself. I couldn't stand working like that. I discussed the faults of my old job with my new colleagues after I started here and they understood.
As long as you're not hopping jobs every few months, you should be able to convince your interviewer it was a one-off. Don't worry about trying to work a full year in a toxic environment. Move on if you need to. At the end of the day, you can put a spin on your resume, but you can't spin your personal satisfaction with your job.
If you think the situation is unlikely to improve, line up a better job and then quit. You don't have to tolerate a dysfunctional team. It won't affect your resume or job prospects and joining a better team will enhance your career.
+1 Also next time do some due diligence and check glassdoor.com: every company has a few people who didn't fit in, but if Glassdoor is pages and pages of people talking about how dysfunctional the company is, or how bad the culture is, then you can expect it to be accurate.
I might be wrong, but it looks to me you lack confidence.
Every time that happens do anything outside of your comfort zone.
In professional context: Learn a new programming language, get familiar with a new framework, study fundamental CS.
In social context: Go out more, talk to ladies if you're guy, talk to boys if you're girl.
I sense in your case you're dealing with passioned/opinionated people and you should take constructive criticism and advance yourself. But don't take shit from them.
Have your own opinion on things even if it's not the right one. I love reasonably opinionated conversations because I can learn new from those if I am wrong or incompetent in certain areas.
In the end you don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything (aside from money).
Think of your job as a process of you helping the company with your talent and time. Move on if it's not fun for you and you don't learn anything new.
I sense in your case you're dealing with passioned/opinionated people and you should take constructive criticism and advance yourself. But don't take shit from them.
Have your own opinion on things even if it's not the right one. I love reasonably opinionated conversations because I can learn new from those if I am wrong or incompetent in certain areas.
In the end you don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything (aside from money).
Think of your job as a process of you helping the company with your talent and time. Move on if it's not fun for you and you don't learn anything new.
I really appreciate your feedback. I don't lack confidence, and happily accept constructive comments from my coworkers. The thing I'm having trouble with is my coworkers treating me like I'm inexperienced and untrained (both untrue). They want me to always trust everything they say without question, but don't want to give my suggestions any consideration. If I discover I'm wrong, I readily admit this and adopt the correct thinking. If they're wrong, they belittle me.
What I like about your comment is that it reminds me that I don't need to get bent out of shape about my coworkers problems. If they aren't good at accepting feedback, they're the ones who aren't learning and growing. I can just keep on progressing on my own until I find an opportunity to work somewhere with a more healthy environment.
What I like about your comment is that it reminds me that I don't need to get bent out of shape about my coworkers problems. If they aren't good at accepting feedback, they're the ones who aren't learning and growing. I can just keep on progressing on my own until I find an opportunity to work somewhere with a more healthy environment.
This type of personalities are common in the tech world. Get used to it. Don't let it rock your boat. Do your job, do it the way your superiors want it done(no matter how you prefer to do it). If they want their eggs scrambbled, make them scrambbled, if they want them overeasy, make them overweasy. The customer is always right because they pay you to do it the way they want it. No need to bring your personal opinions into the work place. If it's too uncomfortable, like someone else said here, tough it out for a year then make a move.
I upvoted you, because I think this is useful advice to some extent. A lot of people go into programming because they want to be objectively right all the time and they can't handle extended interpersonal dealings. Programming gives them those opportunities; the compiler makes a binary decision about whether your code is "right" or "wrong", and they can always shut people out by saying they have to work on code. As such, difficult personalities are very common in corporate IT. You can't leave every job over it. Gotta suck it up and just learn to get work done while avoiding your co-workers' triggers unless you know the problem is truly extreme in your workplace.
smart/inquisitive != asshole
Neither does "smart/inquisitive" mean "must always be proved right" or "can't talk to people". Your comment does not seem relevant.
I think you've just agreed with me? Perhaps I should have used "does not imply" instead of "not equal to". And the comment is relevant, because I claim that there are many smart people in IT who are not jerks, while you had a defeatist attitude ("most people in IT are difficult, deal with it".
I did not downvote you (because you provide a POV relevant to the story), but this is one terrible piece of advice. Many years ago, I was in a situation similar to the OP, and after a year or so, I was on the verge of a depression (which I did not realize it by then).
To the OP: leave as soon as you can. There are good places to work out there.
To the OP: leave as soon as you can. There are good places to work out there.
Of course if it's affecting your health,by all means leave as soon as you can. However, we cannot leave everytime we hit a roadblock, sometimes things change for the better, sometimes we grow out of it, there could be organizational changes and so many other factors that may change our outlook on the workplace.
Unfortunately, it sounds like this job isn't a fit for you. I was in the same position 2 years ago when I joined a company, and four months in, I dreaded going to work everyday. The CTO liked to mock competitors with young CEOs, the product manager and eng manager I worked with were racist against Latinos, and the senior eng team had a dogmatic view on writing software. Needless to say, I lined up another job and left. It was the best decision I ever made. Now I'm surrounded by open-minded, supportive, and creative individuals.
Life is too short to stress about how leaving an unhappy situation will affect how people will view you professionally—just do it.
I was a rookie programmer thinking I was hot shit for a bank a long time ago and the 'old hands' were pretty much like you describe.
But they were right and it took me a while to appreciate this. Even so after two years I left my job to start my first company but the experience gained over those two years was worth gold later on and the combined knowledge of those people was immense.
I'd suggest you take a different attitude for a bit, assume they are really trying to teach you, engage them and eat up as much of their time as they're willing to give to educate you. Then, when you've really absorbed all there is to be absorbed (that could be today, I can't tell from your description) look for another place where you again can learn a lot. That's the best reason to change employers: that you've reached a plateau in what you can learn on that job.
But they were right and it took me a while to appreciate this. Even so after two years I left my job to start my first company but the experience gained over those two years was worth gold later on and the combined knowledge of those people was immense.
I'd suggest you take a different attitude for a bit, assume they are really trying to teach you, engage them and eat up as much of their time as they're willing to give to educate you. Then, when you've really absorbed all there is to be absorbed (that could be today, I can't tell from your description) look for another place where you again can learn a lot. That's the best reason to change employers: that you've reached a plateau in what you can learn on that job.
I was in the same boat a year ago. Started a job in June 2014, thought about leaving in July, and started prepping for interviews in October. I did the bare minimum and studied for interviews everyday. My boss even caught me working on leetcode during a meeting. I had to host a couple of team morale events to avoid suspicion.
I also annoyed management by trying to start a salary spreadsheet. That was fun.
I stayed till August 2015 because of the 1 year thing and for a whopping $5,000 worth of options. But after I jumped, I discovered that a lot of people leave bad jobs within a year. I think it's okay as long as you don't do it more than once.
Lastly, would you trust someone you barely know? I wouldn't. Don't talk to your manager.
tl:dr
1. Life is short and software market is hot.
2. Get ready to leave but don't make it too obvious. ;)
I also annoyed management by trying to start a salary spreadsheet. That was fun.
I stayed till August 2015 because of the 1 year thing and for a whopping $5,000 worth of options. But after I jumped, I discovered that a lot of people leave bad jobs within a year. I think it's okay as long as you don't do it more than once.
Lastly, would you trust someone you barely know? I wouldn't. Don't talk to your manager.
tl:dr
1. Life is short and software market is hot.
2. Get ready to leave but don't make it too obvious. ;)
That manager advice sound horrible. That is the point of a manager. If you can't trust them with something as basic and important as team interactions, then there is a bigger problem.
What can a manager possibly do in this situation? "Hey, Boss. Everyone on me team is an asshole. Can you fix that?"
If it was one person on the team causing problems, it could make sense to talk with the manager. If the entire team is toxic (or a bad fit for OP), there is little to nothing the manager can do except maybe help OP move to a different team.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to talk to the manager, unless the manager is one of the toxic team members. But I'm not sure it's very useful, either.
If it was one person on the team causing problems, it could make sense to talk with the manager. If the entire team is toxic (or a bad fit for OP), there is little to nothing the manager can do except maybe help OP move to a different team.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to talk to the manager, unless the manager is one of the toxic team members. But I'm not sure it's very useful, either.
Maybe manager says "So it's not just me thinking that", or "I've noticed guys can be pretty hard on you at times. Since you haven't brought it up, I thought you're ok with it"...
I can think of million other things that might or might not happen.
And I know only one way to really find out - try and see. Are there other ways?
I can think of million other things that might or might not happen.
And I know only one way to really find out - try and see. Are there other ways?
Suppose the manager has those reactions. What then? They'll sit down with the team and have the "don't be mean" talk? I'm just not sure I see that working well. That seems more likely to breed resentment even if it resolves the superficial "combative" behavior.
I'd probably try talking to the individual team members 1:1. As uncomfortable as that would be, I think it is a better bet than having it come from the manager.
I'd probably try talking to the individual team members 1:1. As uncomfortable as that would be, I think it is a better bet than having it come from the manager.
Good point. If I am as mature an adult as I believe myself to be, I ought to be able to have a peaceful conversation about this with a couple of coworkers individually. Definitely would be better than putting them on the defensive by sending a manager after them.
After many years and many jobs i've bought into this philosophy - good work environment, good work and good pay; 3 out of 3 is ideal, 2 out of the 3 is minimum. If you can't get at least 2 out of those 3, just quit. Don't worry about how it would look on your resume. If you know your stuff there will always be places who will accept 'toxic work environment' as a reasonable explanation for quitting a job. In fact, if you are going to use that excuse, it is better that you quit now rather than a year from now to avoid answering the question 'if it was so bad, why did you stick around for over a year? '
Leave. You will not be able to change the personalities of those you work with and going above their heads to complain will not put you in a better position (unless doing so could move you to another team). One job stint at 6 months will not hurt you. I would argue your work environment is the most important part of your job. You spend a lot of your waking hours with these people, you don't want to be miserable.
From my personal experience, I can say that such teams are toxic and you have 2 options: 1) don't say anything publicly, just focus on the work, and 2) leave. If the company has a huge turnover (like the one I worked at), nobody will say anything about leaving quickly. Just be confident, you cannot lower your value as a developer and human being just to fit some bad, toxic place.
I've always had this scenario in my head ... Here is what I think you should do :
1. Tell your boss you quit, because of the facts you point here. Tell your co-workers you quit, because you are not satisfied with the job. ( You will have done the best thing for the company if you do that ).
2. Find a new job/work and don't talk about why you quit your previous job in details. Just tell your new boss : "Well I wasn't satisfied with the team. I didn't have a chance to be valuable, because of their closed-culture. They didn't want anything more from me than being a non-thinking programmer.". Trust me, he will like this. If he doesn't you will end up in the same company
3. In between ... start working on an open source project with good reputation to gain back your confidence ( if you've lost something out of your job ). Even one Merged pull request is a big deal in those moments.
If all of this doesn't work. Let me know. I'm living in Berlin and I think I can find something for you if you want to relocate.
1. Tell your boss you quit, because of the facts you point here. Tell your co-workers you quit, because you are not satisfied with the job. ( You will have done the best thing for the company if you do that ).
2. Find a new job/work and don't talk about why you quit your previous job in details. Just tell your new boss : "Well I wasn't satisfied with the team. I didn't have a chance to be valuable, because of their closed-culture. They didn't want anything more from me than being a non-thinking programmer.". Trust me, he will like this. If he doesn't you will end up in the same company
3. In between ... start working on an open source project with good reputation to gain back your confidence ( if you've lost something out of your job ). Even one Merged pull request is a big deal in those moments.
If all of this doesn't work. Let me know. I'm living in Berlin and I think I can find something for you if you want to relocate.
If a job candidate told me their previous team had a closed-culture and was unappreciative of their talents I would think it was the candidate who was difficult and thought too highly of himself.
I would simply stick the lines of "The work they had me doing wasn't where my strengths really were. I think there was some miscommunication during the hiring process as to what the job really entailed". All of which is true in OP's case - it wasn't communicated to him how incompatible he would be with his team and he's not going to perform his best work there. This method doesn't place blame on anyone (important) and doesn't make you sound difficult or overly particular.
I would simply stick the lines of "The work they had me doing wasn't where my strengths really were. I think there was some miscommunication during the hiring process as to what the job really entailed". All of which is true in OP's case - it wasn't communicated to him how incompatible he would be with his team and he's not going to perform his best work there. This method doesn't place blame on anyone (important) and doesn't make you sound difficult or overly particular.
Yep get another job offer and leave. If they try to convince you to stay with a higher pay or something, don't take it because they will let you go as soon as they get a chance anyway.
You can mention in your exit interview that your manager was nice and you were leaving due to a dysfunctional team if you want.
You can mention in your exit interview that your manager was nice and you were leaving due to a dysfunctional team if you want.
Staying there for a whole year will kill your soul
Anyway that's gonna happen as you grow up
Anyway that's gonna happen as you grow up
In my opinion, you should only go to your manager if it has an effect on your work. Even then it's rare. Since you're the new guy and the others have presumably been there for a while... You will find it difficult to make your case.
You risk running up against the trope of not being a 'team player'.
Honestly what you described does not sound that bad. You should think about other similar situations in your past that you have had with other people and try to see if you have a pattern of needing to be right. It is entirely possible you are externalizing some fault in your own personality.
Regardless, look at it as a learning opportunity. If you can't handle the various personalities in the world without it effecting you on a personal level, you're going to have a tough time.
Honestly what you described does not sound that bad. You should think about other similar situations in your past that you have had with other people and try to see if you have a pattern of needing to be right. It is entirely possible you are externalizing some fault in your own personality.
Regardless, look at it as a learning opportunity. If you can't handle the various personalities in the world without it effecting you on a personal level, you're going to have a tough time.
Very good comments. What I failed to mention in my original post was that I feel that the discussions are really one-sided. My co-workers expect me to listen to and do everything they say, and don't want to hear any suggestions from me. I'm fine with other people considering my suggestions and then deciding against them. I'm not okay with coworkers who just reject my ideas because they came from the new guy.
I do think you're right about tolerating different personalities, and about talking to a manager. I'll tread carefully.
I do think you're right about tolerating different personalities, and about talking to a manager. I'll tread carefully.
It's a job-shoppers' market right now. Six months is a fine time to work in a caustic environment. Explain yourself clearly and it wont matter at all.
Always?
Everything?
There's not even one example where they reacted in a "nice way"?
Seems you haven't told them how such thing make you feel?
Maybe it's not personality, and perhaps they don't know this stuff is bothering you...
Definitely talk to your manager, and try talking to your team as well.
Focus on observations/examples as well as how those situations make you feel.
I agree that life is too short, and IT is full of "difficult" people. Instead of running away from it, get better in dealing with them.
There's not even one example where they reacted in a "nice way"?
Seems you haven't told them how such thing make you feel?
Maybe it's not personality, and perhaps they don't know this stuff is bothering you...
Definitely talk to your manager, and try talking to your team as well.
Focus on observations/examples as well as how those situations make you feel.
I agree that life is too short, and IT is full of "difficult" people. Instead of running away from it, get better in dealing with them.
You're right. I did misrepresent the situation. I've had quite a few positive experiences there too. Some of the best feedback I've gotten from this thread is that I should be looking at my own behavior and considering whether or not I'm doing my part to learn and be friendly to work with. I still may consider a job change in time, but I should be careful about where I place blame and what accusations I throw around.
In many cases, if you are a new person, other people are still testing boundaries. I had a similar experience before. I sarcastically asked a co-worker if he has been an asshole all his life or just today because of the weather. That set things right that one time.
There is a first time to everything. If you move away, you are moving away from an opportunity to deal with things you never dealt with before. Your job is not so precious as you think. Try different approaches, be confrontational when you want to be, you don't have to be nice anymore, try to overcome this and you would be a much better person for yourself and others. Why do you have to be the one that goes to the manager, why cant you send your colleagues to the manager? Your manager might trust you more if you learn to deal with situations yourself.
It is possible some of my advice might seem "bad or condescending" but who cares I said what I wanted to say.
I happened to watch this old Andy Griffith show, it might be relevant. https://vimeo.com/66146806
There is a first time to everything. If you move away, you are moving away from an opportunity to deal with things you never dealt with before. Your job is not so precious as you think. Try different approaches, be confrontational when you want to be, you don't have to be nice anymore, try to overcome this and you would be a much better person for yourself and others. Why do you have to be the one that goes to the manager, why cant you send your colleagues to the manager? Your manager might trust you more if you learn to deal with situations yourself.
It is possible some of my advice might seem "bad or condescending" but who cares I said what I wanted to say.
I happened to watch this old Andy Griffith show, it might be relevant. https://vimeo.com/66146806
Leave. Explain the resume issue: "It was a toxic working environment".
a) As described, it isn't a "toxic environment". My previous job the boss would go on verbal and physical tirades almost daily (cursing loud enough to be heard through multiple walls, throwing hardware, ripping a door off its hinges, etc). Meanwhile, in one job, my mother had a boss made them work through a breakdown of the A/C. Their office temperatures were exceeding 100 degrees and most of the full-time staff were over 50 years old. This ultimately led to that boss' death at her own desk. Those are "toxic environments". As the OP described their situation, the environment is certainly not supportive, and is uncomfortable and demoralizing, but it doesn't sound like their physical welfare is in jeopardy, so it shouldn't be called 'toxic'.
b) As cookiecaper indicated, you should focus on the positives of the job you're interviewing for, not the negatives of the current job. For example, "I'm looking for a more respectful and collegial work environment that supports mutual skill development." The interviewer may take that as "this person is coming from an unsupportive environment" but it could also be taken as "this person is coming from a so-so, hum-drum environment and simply wants a better environment."
b) As cookiecaper indicated, you should focus on the positives of the job you're interviewing for, not the negatives of the current job. For example, "I'm looking for a more respectful and collegial work environment that supports mutual skill development." The interviewer may take that as "this person is coming from an unsupportive environment" but it could also be taken as "this person is coming from a so-so, hum-drum environment and simply wants a better environment."
It's best not to get into that. Just say "it just wasn't the type of culture I expected". As they ask you to explain, make sure your responses are tempered. Explain the issues, as the potential employer understands you're leaving your current employer because you don't like something about them, but do it gently. Using harsh language about your former employer in an interview turns people off, because they imagine you saying it about them if the job doesn't work out for some reason.
As far as your work is concerned, if you believe your code or design choices are valid, don't accept their corrections or suggestions so easily. Explain your choices and listen to them seriously. Let THEM convince you why you're in the wrong. Ask for clarifications and don't let them leave until you are fully convinced. Stand up for yourself, OP.
I would leave if I was you, but I would leave on good terms. I had a job where I was in a similar position as OP, however another issue was my job was in SharePoint/SAP and I knew I wanted to be a Rails developer. That made my situation a lot easier to leave. I told my boss that working with SAP and SharePoint wasn't for me and that I wanted to get back to doing what I wanted to do. Because I left on good terms, I can probably go back if I ever wanted to... (but hopefully I won't have to!)
After thinking about it some more, I would consider if you like what you are doing. There was several people I dreaded seeing everyday, but I also didnt like what I was doing and wanted to go back to doing something I liked doing. Both of those problems made it pretty easy for me to leave my job. If you like what you are doing, I would try to make it work or at least stick it out long enough to find another job doing that.
After thinking about it some more, I would consider if you like what you are doing. There was several people I dreaded seeing everyday, but I also didnt like what I was doing and wanted to go back to doing something I liked doing. Both of those problems made it pretty easy for me to leave my job. If you like what you are doing, I would try to make it work or at least stick it out long enough to find another job doing that.
There's a great tangentially related article around this by Malcolm Gladwell on Albert Hirschman:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/the-gift-of-dou... http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674276604
'makes a basic distinction between alternative ways of reacting to deterioration in business firms and, in general, to dissatisfaction with organizations: one, “exit,” is for the member to quit the organization or for the customer to switch to the competing product, and the other, “voice,” is for members or customers to agitate and exert influence for change “from within.”'
Hope that helps you figure out whether to use your voice or your feet!
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/the-gift-of-dou... http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674276604
'makes a basic distinction between alternative ways of reacting to deterioration in business firms and, in general, to dissatisfaction with organizations: one, “exit,” is for the member to quit the organization or for the customer to switch to the competing product, and the other, “voice,” is for members or customers to agitate and exert influence for change “from within.”'
Hope that helps you figure out whether to use your voice or your feet!
I once got this advice as, "Either change your organization or change your organization."
This sounds like a personality conflict.
Old joke: "Personality conflict" is one of those code phrases for "Somebody here is an asshole"
Seriously, though, team members have certain styles, and teams fit together in a certain way. Most companies never figure out that you can take 4 or 5 great teams, remix all the people, then end up with 4 or 5 horrible teams. It's not skills -- a lot has to do with the way the personalities mix.
If you are completely out to sea -- unaware of how to continue -- perhaps you just name it and shame it. "Hey Joe, I see you're trying to teach me error handling again although I've been doing this longer than you have. Okay if I start doing the same to you?" Then start doing it.
Was working with a CEO of a small company once. I think they had around 100-120 employees, all knowledgeable about a certain part of tech. I was brought in also as somebody who knew what he was doing, but since I was working directly with the CEO, I kind of held back a bit to see how he worked.
Bad decision. He ran over me. The first time he mentioned something they had invited me in on, I tried to raise my hand. He ignored me. The second time I was a little more insistent. By Day 3, he started in on the same topic again, I simply said "You know, I've written a couple of small books about this and devised my own training material. But what the hell do I know?"
I wish I could say that solved the problem. It did not. He was still an asshole and we didn't get along. But I had to take what he was doing to me and do it right back to him for him to be able to see it. I got to start doing the work they had hired me for. If we had continued working together after that first week, it would have probably gotten very interesting!
Either you walk or give as good as you get. If you're shy and the others are domineering, passive and passive/aggressive techniques are just going to make it worse.
Old joke: "Personality conflict" is one of those code phrases for "Somebody here is an asshole"
Seriously, though, team members have certain styles, and teams fit together in a certain way. Most companies never figure out that you can take 4 or 5 great teams, remix all the people, then end up with 4 or 5 horrible teams. It's not skills -- a lot has to do with the way the personalities mix.
If you are completely out to sea -- unaware of how to continue -- perhaps you just name it and shame it. "Hey Joe, I see you're trying to teach me error handling again although I've been doing this longer than you have. Okay if I start doing the same to you?" Then start doing it.
Was working with a CEO of a small company once. I think they had around 100-120 employees, all knowledgeable about a certain part of tech. I was brought in also as somebody who knew what he was doing, but since I was working directly with the CEO, I kind of held back a bit to see how he worked.
Bad decision. He ran over me. The first time he mentioned something they had invited me in on, I tried to raise my hand. He ignored me. The second time I was a little more insistent. By Day 3, he started in on the same topic again, I simply said "You know, I've written a couple of small books about this and devised my own training material. But what the hell do I know?"
I wish I could say that solved the problem. It did not. He was still an asshole and we didn't get along. But I had to take what he was doing to me and do it right back to him for him to be able to see it. I got to start doing the work they had hired me for. If we had continued working together after that first week, it would have probably gotten very interesting!
Either you walk or give as good as you get. If you're shy and the others are domineering, passive and passive/aggressive techniques are just going to make it worse.
Good companies don't worry about "job hoppers" because they know a good environment usually solves the "problem". Consider it a red flag when a company has weird policies or treats you in ways you would not treat people.
> but I don't know that there's any way he could address the issues...
Biggest headache for a boss is getting team members to play nice with each other.
The ability to solve problems with ones peers is a desirable managerial quality. Interpersonal savvy is very much a learned & practiced skill. This could prove a huge opportunity for your professional growth.
Suggest reading up in this area, Robert Bolton's book on People Skills is a good place to start > http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65327.People_Skills
Ultimately, moving on to a new company is easy. But dealing with difficult peers never fully goes away.
Biggest headache for a boss is getting team members to play nice with each other.
The ability to solve problems with ones peers is a desirable managerial quality. Interpersonal savvy is very much a learned & practiced skill. This could prove a huge opportunity for your professional growth.
Suggest reading up in this area, Robert Bolton's book on People Skills is a good place to start > http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65327.People_Skills
Ultimately, moving on to a new company is easy. But dealing with difficult peers never fully goes away.
I'd look closely at how they interact with each other. It is entirely possible that they are genuinely looking for debates to get to the bottom of things (which can often go to the point of comedy in tech circles.) There are a lot of ways to get along in that kind of environment by picking your battles and knowing when to change subjects..
But if you don't find a way to get along with them that suites you, then I would recommend going on interviews as soon as possible to gauge your markets reaction. Just don't say anything bad about them; you can always find an arbitrary difference between two employers and pretend that difference is a little more significant to you.
But if you don't find a way to get along with them that suites you, then I would recommend going on interviews as soon as possible to gauge your markets reaction. Just don't say anything bad about them; you can always find an arbitrary difference between two employers and pretend that difference is a little more significant to you.
You can give your manager the chance to make a modification, but you should be mentally prepared to leave before you do that. They probably won't fire you just for explaining some interpersonal difficulties, but it will mark you as a dissatisfied employee and fundamentally change your relationship with the company. You'll be at the top of the list for layoffs or other adverse action.
Don't go into this with any expectation that anything will get fixed. Most likely, the manager will take your concerns to your co-workers and tell them to fly right, they'll make a token effort for a couple of weeks, and it'll go right back to the way it was after that.
Don't go into this with any expectation that anything will get fixed. Most likely, the manager will take your concerns to your co-workers and tell them to fly right, they'll make a token effort for a couple of weeks, and it'll go right back to the way it was after that.
If you go into anything with mindset that nothing will change - it's more likely that it will not change.
And if it turns out company is so bad and reacts like you've described - then you at least know you really don't want to be working there anymore.
And when someone in the future asks you "What did you do (to improve/change situation)?" you can say "I tried! I gave it my best - specifically this and that and ..."
And if it turns out company is so bad and reacts like you've described - then you at least know you really don't want to be working there anymore.
And when someone in the future asks you "What did you do (to improve/change situation)?" you can say "I tried! I gave it my best - specifically this and that and ..."
I experienced this exact phenomenon when I took a job in a new region (Pacific NW). Out of the team of 6 non-managers, half were amazing and fun people. The other three were myopic, antisocial assholes. Add to that my manager was an absentminded professor type, and his boss was super intense/smart, and scared the living day lights out of everyone because she didn't understand that new employees needed help understanding what concepts she was explaining.
The point is, I was miserable, and after 3-4 months I knew it was not the right team for me. I found a new job quickly (networking, kids!) and once I found out my new start date I had a talk with my immediate manager and told him why I was leaving. I told him about the toxic culture. I told him about being made to feel stupid because I had tried to build process improvements which amounted to moving someone's cheese a few millimeters. He understood, and was grateful. I told the HR person about the team dynamics. I told her that this toxic attitude towards change would continue to drive talented people like me out of the organization. She profusely thanked me and said that it had been the best exit interview she had ever had.
Fast forward 6 months on my new job, and I'm unhappy here for entirely different reasons. Time to start looking again!
I absolutely do think you should talk to your manager. If you don't, you are missing an opportunity to practice the skill of having difficult conversations, and you're short changing whomever comes into your job after you, who'll have to have that conversation, too. Plus, your manager might surprise you. She/he might have a way to make you happy! Do start looking for a new job today. And for the love of all that's holy, make your next interview all about figuring out what the people will be like to work with. Don't come to the interview from a place of "I have to get this job." Come at it like a date. You're trying to arrive at a mutually beneficial fit. Don't try to impress them; just be yourself and see if there's a spark!
You don't owe them anything in the United States unless you're under contract. What you kind of do owe them as a good person is to talk to your manager before deciding to quit.
The point is, I was miserable, and after 3-4 months I knew it was not the right team for me. I found a new job quickly (networking, kids!) and once I found out my new start date I had a talk with my immediate manager and told him why I was leaving. I told him about the toxic culture. I told him about being made to feel stupid because I had tried to build process improvements which amounted to moving someone's cheese a few millimeters. He understood, and was grateful. I told the HR person about the team dynamics. I told her that this toxic attitude towards change would continue to drive talented people like me out of the organization. She profusely thanked me and said that it had been the best exit interview she had ever had.
Fast forward 6 months on my new job, and I'm unhappy here for entirely different reasons. Time to start looking again!
I absolutely do think you should talk to your manager. If you don't, you are missing an opportunity to practice the skill of having difficult conversations, and you're short changing whomever comes into your job after you, who'll have to have that conversation, too. Plus, your manager might surprise you. She/he might have a way to make you happy! Do start looking for a new job today. And for the love of all that's holy, make your next interview all about figuring out what the people will be like to work with. Don't come to the interview from a place of "I have to get this job." Come at it like a date. You're trying to arrive at a mutually beneficial fit. Don't try to impress them; just be yourself and see if there's a spark!
You don't owe them anything in the United States unless you're under contract. What you kind of do owe them as a good person is to talk to your manager before deciding to quit.
"Job hopper stink" only really apply if you have two consecutive short shifts. Be sure to change job with an offer in hand and double check the culture in the new place as you will be stuck there for longer.
As a side note, culture fit is a two way road, but from the post you wrote they are all monster while you bring all the objectivity and experience. You might want to review the way the story is told, because, frankly, there are quite some red flags that come from it.
As a side note, culture fit is a two way road, but from the post you wrote they are all monster while you bring all the objectivity and experience. You might want to review the way the story is told, because, frankly, there are quite some red flags that come from it.
Hello OP.
I just spent a year at a company that was toxic towards team members who simply did not an aggressive personality. I was one of those team members. It led me to become pessimistic and depressed, and my positive outlook on life quickly changed and I became the most negative I've ever been. I began to constantly criticize IT and development decisions unconsciously, and it got so bad that eventually even the simplest JavaScript code would piss me off.
I started looking around and I got a job offer. As soon as I was going to accept the job offer, someone at my current employer discovered that I was planning to leave and my boss caught wind of it (I suspect I left my computer open). My boss pulled me aside and actually convinced me to stay because of the prospects of success. The company had already given me big bonuses and had very good benefits. That was four months ago. I made the choice to stay in a toxic environment just for some arbitrary gain.
Three weeks ago, out of seemingly nowhere, I got fired. I let go of a valuable opportunity because I convinced myself of some arbitrary gains by staying and I had fears of leaving.
I was desperate to find another job and I accepted a terrible offer using terrible technology. I thought I was fucked; I was severely depressed because it was the first time I had gotten fired from a serious position. But I got lucky. Although I'm now working at another company with terrible technology (ASP.NET Web Forms), the people are the nicest and sweetest coworkers I've ever met. I'm happier here, working with shitty technology and shitty prospects, just because my environment is that much better. And I'm not settling here: I am constantly looking for better positions (and contracts) and looking to advance my career until I find the company that I fit in and is a good fit for me as well.
DON'T SETTLE. LEAVE. If you're not happy, don't stay in the position you're in. Unless you need to build your resume or gain experience, there's no reason for you to stay faithful to a company with a toxic environment. You're going to be there eight hours a day, and if things don't work out they will IMMEDIATELY fire you and you'll be fucked, like I was. Usually a toxic environment simply means that you don't fit, and they will let you go simply for not being a fit. Don't make the mistake I made; leave.
One last thing: good developers tend to be overly critical, but that doesn't mean all overly critical people are good developers or even good workers. Many developers have terrible social skills and are unable to properly and professionally express their opinions or thoughts. Don't let anyone tell you how you should be treated or what you should be okay with. If you have a gut feeling that the people you work with are unprofessional, don't brush it off as "oh, they're developers. That's how all developers are." This is a fucking cop-out. I have met plenty competent developers who are able to give constructive criticism without being a complete dick.
I just spent a year at a company that was toxic towards team members who simply did not an aggressive personality. I was one of those team members. It led me to become pessimistic and depressed, and my positive outlook on life quickly changed and I became the most negative I've ever been. I began to constantly criticize IT and development decisions unconsciously, and it got so bad that eventually even the simplest JavaScript code would piss me off.
I started looking around and I got a job offer. As soon as I was going to accept the job offer, someone at my current employer discovered that I was planning to leave and my boss caught wind of it (I suspect I left my computer open). My boss pulled me aside and actually convinced me to stay because of the prospects of success. The company had already given me big bonuses and had very good benefits. That was four months ago. I made the choice to stay in a toxic environment just for some arbitrary gain.
Three weeks ago, out of seemingly nowhere, I got fired. I let go of a valuable opportunity because I convinced myself of some arbitrary gains by staying and I had fears of leaving.
I was desperate to find another job and I accepted a terrible offer using terrible technology. I thought I was fucked; I was severely depressed because it was the first time I had gotten fired from a serious position. But I got lucky. Although I'm now working at another company with terrible technology (ASP.NET Web Forms), the people are the nicest and sweetest coworkers I've ever met. I'm happier here, working with shitty technology and shitty prospects, just because my environment is that much better. And I'm not settling here: I am constantly looking for better positions (and contracts) and looking to advance my career until I find the company that I fit in and is a good fit for me as well.
DON'T SETTLE. LEAVE. If you're not happy, don't stay in the position you're in. Unless you need to build your resume or gain experience, there's no reason for you to stay faithful to a company with a toxic environment. You're going to be there eight hours a day, and if things don't work out they will IMMEDIATELY fire you and you'll be fucked, like I was. Usually a toxic environment simply means that you don't fit, and they will let you go simply for not being a fit. Don't make the mistake I made; leave.
One last thing: good developers tend to be overly critical, but that doesn't mean all overly critical people are good developers or even good workers. Many developers have terrible social skills and are unable to properly and professionally express their opinions or thoughts. Don't let anyone tell you how you should be treated or what you should be okay with. If you have a gut feeling that the people you work with are unprofessional, don't brush it off as "oh, they're developers. That's how all developers are." This is a fucking cop-out. I have met plenty competent developers who are able to give constructive criticism without being a complete dick.
Just a note -- If you feel like the technology is shitty/outdated, update it :)
If you're in a company with good employees, they'll realize the effort you're putting in benefits all of them, and they'll reward you for it (at least socially, if not monetarily). The other devs will thank you, and most likely shower you with praise and love
If you're in a company with good employees, they'll realize the effort you're putting in benefits all of them, and they'll reward you for it (at least socially, if not monetarily). The other devs will thank you, and most likely shower you with praise and love
I am currently in the process of educating my coworkers on newer technologies and methodologies, and it may work in my favor. It is the reason I am not so bothered by the technical debt; my peers are very interested in learning new things and taking this company to the next level. I would not feel the same if they were very close minded and not subject to change at all.
Awesome to hear! I often long to return to some previous jobs I've worked at which had somewhat inferior tech/methodology, since I feel like I could do so much good and really move the organization forward.
Awesome that you're taking time to educate your coworkers on the newer tech and methodologies! Even better that they're receptive and are learning. There's some pretty cool stuff in newer versions of the .NET ecosystem
Awesome that you're taking time to educate your coworkers on the newer tech and methodologies! Even better that they're receptive and are learning. There's some pretty cool stuff in newer versions of the .NET ecosystem
yes, don't settle. find a good environment that you like (whatever the case may be) or quit. in 25 years if tech jobs are scarce this would be bad advice, but it's not 25 years from now, it's december 2015.
as an employer myself, i would say that once an employer knows you are even thinking of leaving, the relationship is poisoned. leave immediately. you are the first person in line to be let go for any reason, possibly no reason at all. this is why you should only ask for a raise in the local context (based on your performance, basically), and never, ever use 'i have another offer' as negotiating leverage.
there are plenty of practical reasons for this but there are also just shitty, spiteful people out there in positions of authority.
as an employer myself, i would say that once an employer knows you are even thinking of leaving, the relationship is poisoned. leave immediately. you are the first person in line to be let go for any reason, possibly no reason at all. this is why you should only ask for a raise in the local context (based on your performance, basically), and never, ever use 'i have another offer' as negotiating leverage.
there are plenty of practical reasons for this but there are also just shitty, spiteful people out there in positions of authority.
I definitely know that feeling. Prepare to leave is my best advice.
But I'd advise (depending on your circumstances of savings, chances of getting a new job soon etc) to not simply quit, but use a bit of time to really put yourself in a strong position to get a new job w/out the pressure of needing one.
if its a big company maybe you could transfer to a new team ?
But I'd advise (depending on your circumstances of savings, chances of getting a new job soon etc) to not simply quit, but use a bit of time to really put yourself in a strong position to get a new job w/out the pressure of needing one.
if its a big company maybe you could transfer to a new team ?
If possible, stick it out for a year. Many hiring managers view that as fulfilling your initial obligations after being hired (hiring expense etc.).
Try to find a way to make lemonade with the lemons you work with. Maybe you'll teach them a thing or two. Also, possibly some of their criticism is valid, regardless of how poorly delivered...
Try to find a way to make lemonade with the lemons you work with. Maybe you'll teach them a thing or two. Also, possibly some of their criticism is valid, regardless of how poorly delivered...
> Many hiring managers view that as fulfilling your initial obligations after being hired (hiring expense etc.).
Some do. I'd rather have somebody leave ASAP so I can bring somebody in that will stay, be happy, and excel at the job. Why have somebody work for 1 year just to walk away? Hiring costs are sunk; you shouldn't be computing value based on sunk costs.
Some do. I'd rather have somebody leave ASAP so I can bring somebody in that will stay, be happy, and excel at the job. Why have somebody work for 1 year just to walk away? Hiring costs are sunk; you shouldn't be computing value based on sunk costs.
Work is one thing, your co-workers are another. If you don't like the people you are spending 40+ hours a week with, I'd begin looking for something else. It sounds like you've given it a pretty fair shot. Software is easy to fix compared to people.
How long have you been there so far?
How long have you been there so far?
> Six months ago, I took a new job as a developer.
The first sentence.
The first sentence.
Agree with the manager sentiment. It's their job to manage the team.
Failing that, I'd find a new job; you don't owe the company anything (literally) and you owe it to yourself to not be miserable.
Failing that, I'd find a new job; you don't owe the company anything (literally) and you owe it to yourself to not be miserable.
You don't owe them anything; leave, as soon as you can.
Get a new job. If you consistently job-hop, that establishes a pattern of behavior. Leaving one job one time can be explained by poor fit.
Hang in there and save up for 5-6 months of cushion money first, then dip. lol
Sharing knowledge is not bad.
Life is too short get out
What should I do? (What CAN I do?)
I've debated talking to my manager about these concerns, but I don't know that there's any way he could address the issues--he can't change the personalities of my team members. Still, I feel he deserves a chance.
Should I just quit and go somewhere else? It feels like doing so would make my resume look pretty bad since it hasn't been long. Also, it seems like I owe something to this company for giving me a job and good pay.
Are there other ways I can address this?