Ask HN: Am I ridiculous for finding 8 hours of work as a coder, ridiculous?
44 comments
You have learnt a valuable lesson whilst early in your career. When you consider a job opportunity you have to take into account many factors that are important to you but might not be to the employer. Factors such as your travel time, company culture, remote working, free soda and so forth.
You have three options...
1, Accept it and get on with the job. (Seems like you are not likely to go with this)
2, Request/persuade boss to let you remote work. (Seems unlikely if they have a corporate culture)
3, Look for another job that does match your desires. (Should be easy as you have 'the stones')
You have three options...
1, Accept it and get on with the job. (Seems like you are not likely to go with this)
2, Request/persuade boss to let you remote work. (Seems unlikely if they have a corporate culture)
3, Look for another job that does match your desires. (Should be easy as you have 'the stones')
What should I do?
You should probably look for another position elsewhere that is more suited to your requirements. It's not like it's difficult to find work as a talented developer, and there are many opportunities available – as remote workers for startups, or contractors for example.
That said, I'd caution:
I am very good and in one month I have already completely rehauled their entire product myself. I have the stones, the problem is I am very very young and tend not to get taken seriously.
This makes you sound arrogant, to put it mildly. You almost certainly didn't do what you describe; it might be worth taking a step back and more realistically evaluating your strengths and weaknesses.
I'm also skeptical that you indeed work for 6 hours with a minimal 15 minute break for lunch – and if you are, it's almost certainly not healthy (physically or mentally).
You should probably look for another position elsewhere that is more suited to your requirements. It's not like it's difficult to find work as a talented developer, and there are many opportunities available – as remote workers for startups, or contractors for example.
That said, I'd caution:
I am very good and in one month I have already completely rehauled their entire product myself. I have the stones, the problem is I am very very young and tend not to get taken seriously.
This makes you sound arrogant, to put it mildly. You almost certainly didn't do what you describe; it might be worth taking a step back and more realistically evaluating your strengths and weaknesses.
I'm also skeptical that you indeed work for 6 hours with a minimal 15 minute break for lunch – and if you are, it's almost certainly not healthy (physically or mentally).
I converted a crappy old PHP code base to a modern one by breaking down their product and re-building it, re-using assets as I needed. It took a lot of time and extra work but I did just that.
You flatter me by thinking that comment comes from a place of arrogance. Assume the aforementioned codebase is complete garbage coded by two non-programmers. It's an MVP essentially.
It's not like I worked somewhere like Facebook and re-did their infrastructure. I remade the work of two business guys.
Why? You just sit there and work, 6 hours isn't a very long time. Maybe I have a unique ability to stay focused for hours on end.
You flatter me by thinking that comment comes from a place of arrogance. Assume the aforementioned codebase is complete garbage coded by two non-programmers. It's an MVP essentially.
It's not like I worked somewhere like Facebook and re-did their infrastructure. I remade the work of two business guys.
Why? You just sit there and work, 6 hours isn't a very long time. Maybe I have a unique ability to stay focused for hours on end.
Really? After looking at your post history, I found this.
>I've lost the ability to focus on a single task for hours at a time like I used to as a kid. Even if it excites me. My attention has been completely ruined by social media and I don't know how to recover. Always some sort of chat or something in the background. I really don't know what to do, should I get counselling or something?
>I've lost the ability to focus on a single task for hours at a time like I used to as a kid. Even if it excites me. My attention has been completely ruined by social media and I don't know how to recover. Always some sort of chat or something in the background. I really don't know what to do, should I get counselling or something?
Yes, in my hobbies. Work is a context where I have to force myself regardless of how I feel or I get fired. Motivating yourself to be equally disciplined in your hobbies where there is no incentive to do so is much more difficult. Stop attempting to dismantle me and post a proper reply instead, otherwise we're done.
You say you are 'very very young'. I worked extra hours for awhile (even if I didn't get paid for these extra hours), just so I can get the experience needed for a better job.
But, pretty much every job is 8 hours. If it's not 8 hours, it's more..not less. You will need to get used to this.
If you want flexibility, become a contractor. You can then work 6 hours every day.
I got tired of this as well, so I started my own company.
But, pretty much every job is 8 hours. If it's not 8 hours, it's more..not less. You will need to get used to this.
If you want flexibility, become a contractor. You can then work 6 hours every day.
I got tired of this as well, so I started my own company.
>You will need to get used to this.
No, I won't, because I've already had two roles that match my criteria, and the conditions at this job don't warrant a mandatory 8 hours per day. We're not doing repetitive tasks that don't have an end in sight. It's win-win on both ends. I get more work done because I'm more motivated and relaxed in my day-to-day life and as a result, their product improves.
There's really no bullshitting in my company. We don't go out, or take excessive breaks, we just work with our music on and barely talk all day. It's really quite exhausting. It's not that we don't like each other or anything, we all just come from super corporate F100 companies.
No, I won't, because I've already had two roles that match my criteria, and the conditions at this job don't warrant a mandatory 8 hours per day. We're not doing repetitive tasks that don't have an end in sight. It's win-win on both ends. I get more work done because I'm more motivated and relaxed in my day-to-day life and as a result, their product improves.
There's really no bullshitting in my company. We don't go out, or take excessive breaks, we just work with our music on and barely talk all day. It's really quite exhausting. It's not that we don't like each other or anything, we all just come from super corporate F100 companies.
At "super corporate" companies people are at their desks for 8 hours, but hardly anyone is working that much. It's all a game of pretending to be working hard (desks where people walking by can't see your screen are highly sought-after).
Why don't you go work for a big four company? They'll pay more than enough to live a good lifestyle for a young person, you can get an apartment within walking distance/five minute commute. They offer plenty of life/time saving services. If you're as good as you say, you can absolutely get by working less than 8 hours a day.
I know two competent people who have gone from working full time hours to working two to three hours a day from home for only a small reduction in pay.
Both quit their jobs to become freelancers, and mentioned to their bosses on the way out that they would available for consulting. They were then contracted in at more than 4x their previous hourly pay.
Both quit their jobs to become freelancers, and mentioned to their bosses on the way out that they would available for consulting. They were then contracted in at more than 4x their previous hourly pay.
I was once in a similar situation. The culture of the company was corporate, and I was fixing legacy code (and getting blamed for bugs I didn't introduce). I was also working long hours.
Start looking for a new job. If you don't find one, no big deal -- you're just in the same position. If you do find one, you might be able to correct the problems you're feeling and avoid burnout.
If you really get to a breaking point, don't quit right away. Tell your bosses that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't change, but there are things they can do to keep you (better hours, remote work, etc.)
Start looking for a new job. If you don't find one, no big deal -- you're just in the same position. If you do find one, you might be able to correct the problems you're feeling and avoid burnout.
If you really get to a breaking point, don't quit right away. Tell your bosses that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't change, but there are things they can do to keep you (better hours, remote work, etc.)
"Tell your bosses that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't change … "
Do this, but be sure when you do. Do _not_ bluff on this unless you understand the consequences of getting called on it and accept them. If you play this hand, and _don't_ quit when things don't change - you've sent a very strong signal about your place in the power structure. In the wrong hands, you've just become almost infinitely manipulable...
Don't "quit right away" is important - rage-quitting is rarely ever going to be an optimal play for you. If you know you're unlikely to be able to enact real change in the company, it's probably not worth playing the "ultimatum card" either, just keep attending and keep up appearances while you find another job. The more time and less pressure you have while doing that the better, you want to be able to evaluate and choose the right opportunity, possibly rejecting offers on the way, instead of feeling pressured to jump at the first offer just so you can pay the rent next month...
Do this, but be sure when you do. Do _not_ bluff on this unless you understand the consequences of getting called on it and accept them. If you play this hand, and _don't_ quit when things don't change - you've sent a very strong signal about your place in the power structure. In the wrong hands, you've just become almost infinitely manipulable...
Don't "quit right away" is important - rage-quitting is rarely ever going to be an optimal play for you. If you know you're unlikely to be able to enact real change in the company, it's probably not worth playing the "ultimatum card" either, just keep attending and keep up appearances while you find another job. The more time and less pressure you have while doing that the better, you want to be able to evaluate and choose the right opportunity, possibly rejecting offers on the way, instead of feeling pressured to jump at the first offer just so you can pay the rent next month...
>Tell your bosses that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't change …
If you put your boss over a barrel like that he'll make the changes you want... long enough to replace you. It's better to be a little less direct - "I want you to know I'm really unhappy with this situation." The implied threat is still there, but your boss won't feel like he's giving in to blackmail if he gives you what you want.
If you put your boss over a barrel like that he'll make the changes you want... long enough to replace you. It's better to be a little less direct - "I want you to know I'm really unhappy with this situation." The implied threat is still there, but your boss won't feel like he's giving in to blackmail if he gives you what you want.
I currently only have one chip, which is the pay cut I took to work here. If I use that chip right away, it screams entitlement, which is only compounded by my age. I need to finish the rest of their product and really wrap everything up and prove my worth in relation to their previous developers with hard numbers. Then I need to convince the other employees to side with me.
Only then I can play a full hand instead of pleading and begging and being at their mercy.
The first chip only benefits me. The first two benefit me and the founders. All three benefit everyone in the company.
I think I'll sit on it for awhile longer and go with this strategy. It's perfect because it makes sense for everyone, and if they reject it I know it's not the right company for me because at that level, that decision would be coming from a place of fear, and that's not somewhere I want to work.
Only then I can play a full hand instead of pleading and begging and being at their mercy.
The first chip only benefits me. The first two benefit me and the founders. All three benefit everyone in the company.
I think I'll sit on it for awhile longer and go with this strategy. It's perfect because it makes sense for everyone, and if they reject it I know it's not the right company for me because at that level, that decision would be coming from a place of fear, and that's not somewhere I want to work.
>Then I need to convince the other employees to side with me.
This seems like a bit much. Why involve the other employees?
This seems like a bit much. Why involve the other employees?
I don't want to magically be the only one who gets to be special and work from home. There's only a few of us, we're in a shared office with our laptops. They've also voiced their discontent.
Try easing into it with a "everyone gets 1 WorkFromHome day a week" policy. If there is an enterprisey vacation-planning tool you use already, WFH can be added as a special kind of vacation. This means the managers can approve WFH requests so that, e.g. not everyone works from home the same day of the week.
Since WFH breaks in person coordination, you actually probably are better off with the whole team doing it at the same time. I mean, for something like software development.
Spot on, change is key.
The assumption that more hours = more work done, and equally hours in the office > hours at home is a cultural problem. I'm also going to guess you're in the US? Commutes and working hours can be more flexible in other countries. I moved countries more than one, and you'll simply have more job options if you find a country that matches the culture you're looking for. Plus, that change can really help make working fun again.
Just don't wait until you're burned out!
The assumption that more hours = more work done, and equally hours in the office > hours at home is a cultural problem. I'm also going to guess you're in the US? Commutes and working hours can be more flexible in other countries. I moved countries more than one, and you'll simply have more job options if you find a country that matches the culture you're looking for. Plus, that change can really help make working fun again.
Just don't wait until you're burned out!
I'd work on being more humble, and open-minded, especially considering your lack of experience. This is one of the more ridiculous posts I've read on HN.
Maybe you should practice what you preach. I'm 34 now and I'd side with the OP on this.
I did a similar thing on my first job: took their web app codebase and totally remade it in the first couple of months, with demonstrable gains on efficiency (Mind it: it was the first web application made by some guys whose previous experience was in Sybase PowerBuilder). I was given a raise the same week I demoed it to my bosses.
I still do programming and I'm still being humbled frequently by the awesome things some of my younger coworkers code effortlessly.
I also share with OP the impression that 8 hours coding as a daily thing is totally overkill. That's suited for factory work where every minute you're not cranking out stuff means losses.
My 'sweet spot' for coding seems to top at 4 hours, a few hours resting and then maybe another couple hours at the end of the day if I feel like I found a better way to do it.
Fortunately I have flexible hours where I work, but I'm still suppossed to put in 8h every day. The result is: when things go well, I complete my tasks and are left with at least 3 hours a day where I'm supposed to be working (so: no relax, no rest, you're on the clock); and when things are not going so well, mostly due to planning mistakes from high up, I have to put in my 8 hours, and then some more.
So please, go tell to be more open-minded to the right people, and let people work to the best of their abilities.
I did a similar thing on my first job: took their web app codebase and totally remade it in the first couple of months, with demonstrable gains on efficiency (Mind it: it was the first web application made by some guys whose previous experience was in Sybase PowerBuilder). I was given a raise the same week I demoed it to my bosses.
I still do programming and I'm still being humbled frequently by the awesome things some of my younger coworkers code effortlessly.
I also share with OP the impression that 8 hours coding as a daily thing is totally overkill. That's suited for factory work where every minute you're not cranking out stuff means losses.
My 'sweet spot' for coding seems to top at 4 hours, a few hours resting and then maybe another couple hours at the end of the day if I feel like I found a better way to do it.
Fortunately I have flexible hours where I work, but I'm still suppossed to put in 8h every day. The result is: when things go well, I complete my tasks and are left with at least 3 hours a day where I'm supposed to be working (so: no relax, no rest, you're on the clock); and when things are not going so well, mostly due to planning mistakes from high up, I have to put in my 8 hours, and then some more.
So please, go tell to be more open-minded to the right people, and let people work to the best of their abilities.
What you should do is let your bosses know that you're not happy in the current situation. Be reasonable but on the other hand do make clear that if the situation does not improve, you will start looking for another job. But tell them that you would regret that because there are also many aspects of your job which you like. (assuming of course that this is the case)
And then, if things still don't get better, switch jobs!
And then, if things still don't get better, switch jobs!
Nice, Polite, but Direct. I'll always recommend this type of way when facing conflict.
Speak your problems logically and show that you've given some thought to them when you talk with your boss.
Speak your problems logically and show that you've given some thought to them when you talk with your boss.
You're right that it is difficult, probably infeasible, to program productively for 8 hours per day. But there's value for a youngster like yourself in toughening up and working a crappy job for some time. When you go back to a better situation, hopefully you will appreciate it more.
I was in this situation, now I'm contracting with Surge, working 100% remotely, making my own hours. There are days where I work 4 hours, and days that I work 12. I enjoy not commuting, being able to work out in the middle of the day, take my daughter to the park, cook lunch, etc.
In stackoverflow, there is a job advertisement:
http://stackoverflow.com/jobs/15018/hiring-senior-software-e...
The sentence is very important NO OFFSHORE CANDIDATES
The sentence is very important NO OFFSHORE CANDIDATES
This is so ridiculous:
.NET / C#
Node.JS
Java
PHP
Ruby
Python
C++
Objective C
Android
Windows Desktop (WCF, MVVM)
BS in Computer Science
It says One or more of the following skillsets is also required
You wouldn't necessarily be doing all of those things every day- I'm assuming they go out and find short-term work then assign it to you and you do it. So you could be doing just about anything.
As a side note; I'm only a few years into my career and have extensive experience with a vast majority of those technologies/frameworks, and picking up a new one is a cinch if you just put the time in.
You wouldn't necessarily be doing all of those things every day- I'm assuming they go out and find short-term work then assign it to you and you do it. So you could be doing just about anything.
As a side note; I'm only a few years into my career and have extensive experience with a vast majority of those technologies/frameworks, and picking up a new one is a cinch if you just put the time in.
I've read advice from someone a while ago about this topic. The gist was that you have to ease your bosses into letting you work from home.
Start with the odd day like when you're sick or when there is a single day between weekend and holiday. Prove that you can do the same or more work this way.
Once you convinced them that your remote working does no harm or even helps, you can extend things.
Start with the odd day like when you're sick or when there is a single day between weekend and holiday. Prove that you can do the same or more work this way.
Once you convinced them that your remote working does no harm or even helps, you can extend things.
Welcome to the absurdity of life champ.
You are not being ridiculous and don't let people hate on you.
1. I see expert programming similar to Mathematics.[1] If you can do two 2-3 hour spurts that produces a ton, it can be draining and you need time to recharge. It's generally better to do a smaller amount of excellent work when programming than a lot of easier busy work. One star feature or optimization or whatever built right can have a much larger impact than hours of crap work in the wrong direction.
2. In this day in age of material production, why someone with a valuable skill can't earn a decent living with less than 40 hours a week work is kind of pathetic. Don't feel bad if that is what you want. If you are providing value to the company, that is the primary thing, not how many hours your butt is in a chair. Also, this relates to #4.
3. Time in the office can be valuable. I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. It makes communication a ton easier and can build a better sense of team in people, but remote should be acceptable too (at least part time). Inability to handle remote probably signals a weak team.
4. Most founders are closer to the VCs than to you. Know what the cap table looks like and what your reasonable exits look like. If you are as talented as you say, make sure you aren't getting screwed. First hire should at least be in the 2-3 percent range and that can still be a screw job if you are providing so much value as to build out their entire tech stack. Remember, most likely exit is none, and then most likely is middle of the road (Founders make $5-10M each, you make what? At 1/20 = $250-500k) Over four years, really as much as you are probably giving up if you worked for a big company (including stock and bonus and more salary). So 50% chance nothing, 40% chance same as you would have made +/- a bit, 10% chance you make double, triple? .1-1% chance FU money. The founders will probably be flying lear jets before you buy a house. There's a lot of fucking stupid people getting a lot of money, so keep this in mind. [2, 3] Just because people are founders doesn't mean they are competent, just means a slightly above average chance, like going to a good school.
The fact their previous team of developers left is a red flag. The fact that other employees have issues in a small team is a red flag. "Corporate" founders with other people building their tech? Your biggest issue may not be remote but the possible turd of a startup you are working at. 5 years? Startup years are like dog years, how is the company still alive and not growing. Sounds like a small lifestyle business calling itself a startup.
While other people are trashing your arogance, I sympathize. Keep moving until you find a place that feels right, where you respect the people you are working with, and where you feel you are valued and earning or learning or living the way you want. It's your life, don't let other people tell you how to live it.
[1] http://calnewport.com/blog/2012/08/31/henri-poincares-four-h...
[2] http://nextshark.com/8-reasons-clinkles-lucas-duplan-is-the-...
[3] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-want-to-see-Clin...
1. I see expert programming similar to Mathematics.[1] If you can do two 2-3 hour spurts that produces a ton, it can be draining and you need time to recharge. It's generally better to do a smaller amount of excellent work when programming than a lot of easier busy work. One star feature or optimization or whatever built right can have a much larger impact than hours of crap work in the wrong direction.
2. In this day in age of material production, why someone with a valuable skill can't earn a decent living with less than 40 hours a week work is kind of pathetic. Don't feel bad if that is what you want. If you are providing value to the company, that is the primary thing, not how many hours your butt is in a chair. Also, this relates to #4.
3. Time in the office can be valuable. I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. It makes communication a ton easier and can build a better sense of team in people, but remote should be acceptable too (at least part time). Inability to handle remote probably signals a weak team.
4. Most founders are closer to the VCs than to you. Know what the cap table looks like and what your reasonable exits look like. If you are as talented as you say, make sure you aren't getting screwed. First hire should at least be in the 2-3 percent range and that can still be a screw job if you are providing so much value as to build out their entire tech stack. Remember, most likely exit is none, and then most likely is middle of the road (Founders make $5-10M each, you make what? At 1/20 = $250-500k) Over four years, really as much as you are probably giving up if you worked for a big company (including stock and bonus and more salary). So 50% chance nothing, 40% chance same as you would have made +/- a bit, 10% chance you make double, triple? .1-1% chance FU money. The founders will probably be flying lear jets before you buy a house. There's a lot of fucking stupid people getting a lot of money, so keep this in mind. [2, 3] Just because people are founders doesn't mean they are competent, just means a slightly above average chance, like going to a good school.
The fact their previous team of developers left is a red flag. The fact that other employees have issues in a small team is a red flag. "Corporate" founders with other people building their tech? Your biggest issue may not be remote but the possible turd of a startup you are working at. 5 years? Startup years are like dog years, how is the company still alive and not growing. Sounds like a small lifestyle business calling itself a startup.
While other people are trashing your arogance, I sympathize. Keep moving until you find a place that feels right, where you respect the people you are working with, and where you feel you are valued and earning or learning or living the way you want. It's your life, don't let other people tell you how to live it.
[1] http://calnewport.com/blog/2012/08/31/henri-poincares-four-h...
[2] http://nextshark.com/8-reasons-clinkles-lucas-duplan-is-the-...
[3] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-want-to-see-Clin...
It really seems unlikely that the situation will change in your current workplace. Best to start searching for something more fitting to your wishes. Good luck!
>First hire...old developers of the past 5 years
Are they used to working with contractors? If so they just might need to be educated on the difference between FTEs & guns for hire.
Are they used to working with contractors? If so they just might need to be educated on the difference between FTEs & guns for hire.
>FTE
Fuck The Engineers
Fuck The Engineers
If you're the first hire, who were the old developers you're cleaning up after.
You don't have to stay...
You can find a remote job...
It's our market. If you are even an average coder you can have the pick of the market.
[deleted]
Ideally I'd work 6 hours a day, from home with no breaks (obviously a 10-15m lunch) but that's it.
3 hours of mine are wasted every day. 1.5 hour commute/getting read, 1.5 hours lunch + various breaks.
So essentially 8 hours of work, and an extra 1.5 hours of wasted time, taking up 9.5 hours of my day. I could be saving 3.5 hours per day (that's a full month and 5 days every year!)
It just seems ridiculous to me as I've already had two really successful remote roles and the dynamic / team size / software stack is the exact same as previous startups I've worked at.
I'm their first hire and the founders come from a corporate culture so they just do all the same corporate stuff, meanwhile me and the employees are dying and I'm really feeling like quitting. I am cleaning up the mess of their old developers of the past 5 years, I am very good and in one month I have already completely rehauled their entire product myself. I have the stones, the problem is I am very very young and tend not to get taken seriously.
Time is MUCH more valuable to me than money. The money just goes in my account and investments, I don't really go out or drink or anything so that money to me is just future time.
What should I do?