PCB design now supports LEDs and Matias switches(ultimatehackingkeyboard.com)
ultimatehackingkeyboard.com
PCB design now supports LEDs and Matias switches
https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2016/02/18/2nd-uhk-post-campaign-update-pcb-design-now-supports-leds-and-matias-switches
82 comments
These guys are mass-producing ergodox - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-...
I recently got my keyboard
I recently got my keyboard
I bought and assembled an ergodox some time ago. I found the key layout to be too esoteric for me to adapt my workflows to. The thumb cluster while a good thought is not as well positioned as on an Kinesis advantage to be extremely useful. I never ended finding a layout I liked.
It's been sitting in my parts drawer for a while, I'm not sure how to part ways with specialty items like that.
The kinesis freestyle + vip accessory was my daily driver for years but it's a bit mushy and the build quality is questionable (I went through 3 boards, including one DoA). My new one is the Matias Ergo pro. Quite similar, but better in almost every way, except price.
It's been sitting in my parts drawer for a while, I'm not sure how to part ways with specialty items like that.
The kinesis freestyle + vip accessory was my daily driver for years but it's a bit mushy and the build quality is questionable (I went through 3 boards, including one DoA). My new one is the Matias Ergo pro. Quite similar, but better in almost every way, except price.
I used a Kinesis Freestyle (1st edition) for five or six years before building an Ergodox. If you're having trouble with certain chords, qihqi's suggestion is really the way to go: you need to train yourself to use both hands. I thought I would like having modifier keys on the thumb cluster of the Ergodox, but ultimately found it very uncomfortable. So learning to two-hand basic chords on a split keyboard will help you out regardless which specific keyboard or key layout you eventually use.
Thanks for sharing your experience with Ergodox.
Usually, I want to press Cmd + T when I'm in the browser, so my right hand is usually on the mouse. That's why I want to do it with a single hand.
(I've tried browser plugins that mimic Vim keybindings, but I still need to reach for the mouse a lot: browsing menus, etc.)
Usually, I want to press Cmd + T when I'm in the browser, so my right hand is usually on the mouse. That's why I want to do it with a single hand.
(I've tried browser plugins that mimic Vim keybindings, but I still need to reach for the mouse a lot: browsing menus, etc.)
There's also http://shop.keyboard.io who (from my limited experience on demo keyboards) have _much_ better thumb cluster design & positioning than the ergodox... Looking forward to manufacturing happeing for that.
I use an ergodox and recommend it highly. Massdrop has drops of the "ergodox infinity" from time to time, which is assembled except for the keys (you'll need to solder them in yourself, but that's a lot less work than building the original design)
It's almost vaporware at this point, but I'm still waiting for AcidFire's Axios[0], which is based on the ergodox design but with very carefully thought out improvements (adjustable thumb clusters and built in tenting being the main two)
[0]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0
It's almost vaporware at this point, but I'm still waiting for AcidFire's Axios[0], which is based on the ergodox design but with very carefully thought out improvements (adjustable thumb clusters and built in tenting being the main two)
[0]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0
You can always press Cmd and T with different hands... (assuming there is Cmd in both side of your board).
Some PC-style keyboards only have one Windows key, with the right-hand equivalent being the Application key. So you only get one command key in OS X.
Fortunately, you can use Karabiner (https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ - formerly known as KeyRemap4Macbook) to turn the application key into another copy of the command key.
Fortunately, you can use Karabiner (https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ - formerly known as KeyRemap4Macbook) to turn the application key into another copy of the command key.
Took the words out of my mouth. You've gotta teach yourself to do this on a split keyboard.
[deleted]
I don't have too much trouble with Cmd/Ctrl T (although something like Ctrl+Shift+6 is really awkward) but I agree an extra key under the spacebar for the thumbs would be a great addition to the Freestyle 2.
Have you considered remapping your caps lock key?
I remapped mine to Ctrl and after some acclimatisation it was a lot comfier.
I remapped mine to Ctrl and after some acclimatisation it was a lot comfier.
I'm a Vim user, so Caps Lock is already assigned to Escape. :)
You might like to try to map a Ctrl key to the Capslock and use Ctrl + [ as ESC.
I use xcape [1] to have the best of both worlds: a quick press-release tap means Escape (great for vim), while holding it down makes it act as Ctrl (great for shell and other stuff). It's wonderful :)
[1] https://github.com/alols/xcape
[1] https://github.com/alols/xcape
Ergodox ez is available now, a prebuild ergodox. I like mine.
This reminds me of the open source keyboardio [1], which isn't yet in production. They key mapping and LEDs are controlled by Arduino and fully customizable. The creator blogged in detail about its creation from concept to manufacturing [2]. A maker triumph.
[1] http://shop.keyboard.io/
[2] http://blog.keyboard.io/post/77078804805/building-a-keyboard...
[1] http://shop.keyboard.io/
[2] http://blog.keyboard.io/post/77078804805/building-a-keyboard...
Yup. It solves my main complaint about the ergodox, which is the poorly placed/uncomfortable thumb cluster. It also has out-of-band communication with PC for e.g. LED or layer controls, which, well, I've thought of a few interesting things for that already. At minimum, indicators for e.g. vi insert mode, running shell as root, &c&c...
This one looks interesting.
I tried the Truly Ergonomic keyboard and while it was innovative, it was hard to get used to the middle row and the build quality was not so good.
I ended up buying from WASD Keyboards and I absolutely love their product. Complete customization, a tenkeyless option, excellent build quality, the most durable key caps around, but familiar IBM style key placement.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
This one seems to be something in between these two.
In my opinion, the most important ergonomic improvements are to buy a tenkeyless model and set the capslock to a backspace. Having a heavy keyboard with sturdy grips at the base is also important.
Exotic features like a split keyboard, matrix layout, and strange thumb controls are just annoying and non-standard. I also somewhat regret having switched to colemak, but not entirely.
I tried the Truly Ergonomic keyboard and while it was innovative, it was hard to get used to the middle row and the build quality was not so good.
I ended up buying from WASD Keyboards and I absolutely love their product. Complete customization, a tenkeyless option, excellent build quality, the most durable key caps around, but familiar IBM style key placement.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
This one seems to be something in between these two.
In my opinion, the most important ergonomic improvements are to buy a tenkeyless model and set the capslock to a backspace. Having a heavy keyboard with sturdy grips at the base is also important.
Exotic features like a split keyboard, matrix layout, and strange thumb controls are just annoying and non-standard. I also somewhat regret having switched to colemak, but not entirely.
Turning capslock into backspace has been one of the best usability improvements in my life. It just feels so natural. And if you look the keyboard it totally makes sense to have it on home row.
This, on a standard Elcheapo rubberdome keyboard.
I even throw away the original backspace keycap.
The downside is I've quite alot found myself subconciously struggle understanding why the "backspace doesn't work" when hitting capslock on other computers.
This, on a standard Elcheapo rubberdome keyboard.
I even throw away the original backspace keycap.
The downside is I've quite alot found myself subconciously struggle understanding why the "backspace doesn't work" when hitting capslock on other computers.
That is a glaring error of standard keyboards.
Colemak using all fingers of the right home row for letters makes a lot of sense too. Kinda dumb that one of the main keys of the resting position is dedicated to the semicolon.
There's other errors, but unfortunately they aren't all fixable without re-engineering. The Truly Ergonomic keyboard arranges the Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys into a much more logical arrangement, similar to the way the arrow keys are.
I noticed that the placement also encouraged me to use them much more for things like navigating webpages. They are actually really useful for that. I also would use that pad for gaming, instead of W-A-S-D. Filled the bill even better.
Truly Ergonomic's matrix layout also forced me to correct some of my bad typing habits, like using the wrong finger for C.
For the same reason I like the symmetry of enter and backspace on the home row, I liked the symmetry of those keys and also liked their placement of Delete opposite of Escape. And their placement of the backslash and forward slash next to each other, opposite the brackets.
But that middle row was just awful. Particularly the Enter key. Lots of accidental presses. Combined with poor build quality and it was very frustrating. Lots of key doubling, and missed presses. And the caps became worn down quickly.
Colemak using all fingers of the right home row for letters makes a lot of sense too. Kinda dumb that one of the main keys of the resting position is dedicated to the semicolon.
There's other errors, but unfortunately they aren't all fixable without re-engineering. The Truly Ergonomic keyboard arranges the Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys into a much more logical arrangement, similar to the way the arrow keys are.
I noticed that the placement also encouraged me to use them much more for things like navigating webpages. They are actually really useful for that. I also would use that pad for gaming, instead of W-A-S-D. Filled the bill even better.
Truly Ergonomic's matrix layout also forced me to correct some of my bad typing habits, like using the wrong finger for C.
For the same reason I like the symmetry of enter and backspace on the home row, I liked the symmetry of those keys and also liked their placement of Delete opposite of Escape. And their placement of the backslash and forward slash next to each other, opposite the brackets.
But that middle row was just awful. Particularly the Enter key. Lots of accidental presses. Combined with poor build quality and it was very frustrating. Lots of key doubling, and missed presses. And the caps became worn down quickly.
Coolermaster has a tenkeyless keyboard with cherry mx switches called Quickfire. It's about $75, which is less than half the price of most ergonomic/specialty keyboards. Been using one at work for two years now.
Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. I bought one of those for my wife.
> the most durable key caps around
I see that they have a PBT doubleshot option now, but I have a WASD v1 with custom printed ABS keycaps that are almost completely blank now. Just pointing out that it definitely depends which of their keycap products you get.
> Exotic features like a split keyboard, matrix layout, and strange thumb controls are just annoying and non-standard.
To each their own. A split keyboard with thumb clusters has been the most comfortable typing situation for me (in addition to a negative tilt which doesn't get a ton of discussion - if the front of the keyboard is level with your wrists and tilts down away from you, your hands are left in a much more natural resting position)
I see that they have a PBT doubleshot option now, but I have a WASD v1 with custom printed ABS keycaps that are almost completely blank now. Just pointing out that it definitely depends which of their keycap products you get.
> Exotic features like a split keyboard, matrix layout, and strange thumb controls are just annoying and non-standard.
To each their own. A split keyboard with thumb clusters has been the most comfortable typing situation for me (in addition to a negative tilt which doesn't get a ton of discussion - if the front of the keyboard is level with your wrists and tilts down away from you, your hands are left in a much more natural resting position)
What do you not like about different thumb controls? It seems odd to me that the thumb is really only useful for hitting the space bar on standard keyboards.
If you use any other keyboard for any other purpose, the more removed from the standard layout you are, the more disoriented you'll be when switching between the two.
I think if keyboards originally were designed for thumbs to press Ctrl and Alt, in addition to Space, it would be the standard, and it would make sense.
As of now, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V are so standard that I wouldn't want to switch, and am glad that even Colemak doesn't force me to.
But pressing Ctrl+C requires much less hand movement than pressing a traditional backspace. If minimizing hand movement is the goal then backspace is the biggest offender. It is also one of the things that tends to skew the results for Colemak in studies regarding hand movement, making it appear better than it actually is.
Colemak would've been a better standard. But it is not the standard. Don't learn it. Just learn how to type correctly on QWERTY and get a keyboard with the features I mentioned.
I think if keyboards originally were designed for thumbs to press Ctrl and Alt, in addition to Space, it would be the standard, and it would make sense.
As of now, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V are so standard that I wouldn't want to switch, and am glad that even Colemak doesn't force me to.
But pressing Ctrl+C requires much less hand movement than pressing a traditional backspace. If minimizing hand movement is the goal then backspace is the biggest offender. It is also one of the things that tends to skew the results for Colemak in studies regarding hand movement, making it appear better than it actually is.
Colemak would've been a better standard. But it is not the standard. Don't learn it. Just learn how to type correctly on QWERTY and get a keyboard with the features I mentioned.
> If you use any other keyboard for any other purpose, the more removed from the standard layout you are, the more disoriented you'll be when switching between the two.
I don't find this to be true. At all. I use standard QWERTY on my Macbook. At my desk, I use an Ergodox (tented, split, columnar/matrix, thumb clusters, etc.) with a custom Dvorak-based layout. My job frequently requires I switch between desk and laptop usage. It's not a problem and not something I need to think about. My brain and hands just do what they need to do wherever I happen to be typing.
If anything, I think the opposite of your statement is true. The further away from the standard you get in your exotic preference, the easier it is to compartmentalize that layout, the easier it will be to switch as needed.
I don't find this to be true. At all. I use standard QWERTY on my Macbook. At my desk, I use an Ergodox (tented, split, columnar/matrix, thumb clusters, etc.) with a custom Dvorak-based layout. My job frequently requires I switch between desk and laptop usage. It's not a problem and not something I need to think about. My brain and hands just do what they need to do wherever I happen to be typing.
If anything, I think the opposite of your statement is true. The further away from the standard you get in your exotic preference, the easier it is to compartmentalize that layout, the easier it will be to switch as needed.
> If anything, I think the opposite of your statement is true. The further away from the standard you get in your exotic preference, the easier it is to compartmentalize that layout, the easier it will be to switch as needed.
This has been my experience as well - even with very muscle-memory intensive things like vim.
This has been my experience as well - even with very muscle-memory intensive things like vim.
> If you use any other keyboard for any other purpose, the more removed from the standard layout you are, the more disoriented you'll be when switching between the two.
Not for me. I use a Kinesis Ergo Advantage at work and home, and have no problems using a standard QWERTY keyboard (infrequently). Switching requires no thought or practice.
The Advantage products shift the major keys where you would normally use your little finger on a QWERTY keyboard to your thumb. It is heaven.
Not for me. I use a Kinesis Ergo Advantage at work and home, and have no problems using a standard QWERTY keyboard (infrequently). Switching requires no thought or practice.
The Advantage products shift the major keys where you would normally use your little finger on a QWERTY keyboard to your thumb. It is heaven.
Wouldn't agree about key caps. Some of mine associated with most used shortcuts are already smooth instead of mat (I don't have anything on them so I don't know if letters would be gone by now).
But it doesn't really matter for my in any way. It's a great keyboard, I love it and would definitely buy it again. Highly recommend.
But it doesn't really matter for my in any way. It's a great keyboard, I love it and would definitely buy it again. Highly recommend.
This looks very nice. Switching to a split keyboard (Kinesis Freestyle)[1] and a trackball placed in the middle of the split so I can use it with either hand (pic of my current setup [2]) was a complete game changer for my RSI problems. It hasn't eliminated it completely but I am managing much much better now.
My only complaint with the Freestyle is that it doesn't have mechanical switches but it's still quite pleasant to type on imo.
[1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/
[2] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzAsjQaobJuoQllYbTVGYlc2b2s...
My only complaint with the Freestyle is that it doesn't have mechanical switches but it's still quite pleasant to type on imo.
[1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/
[2] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzAsjQaobJuoQllYbTVGYlc2b2s...
What trackball is that? Does it have scrolling capability?
It's a Kensington Orbit and yes it has a great (smooth) scroll wheel surrounding the entire trackball.
I have the Kensington Orbit and a Logitech Marble. While I love the scroll wheel on the Kensington, I find that the left button requires a bit more force than the Logitech when clicking. No such thing as a gaming trackball?
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/trackman-marble
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/trackman-marble
Interesting. My one complaint about the Kensington is the buttons feel a little flimsy to me. Not sure I could live with that Logitech without a scroll wheel!
I still miss the Logitech Marble FX (out of production)
http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-TrackMan-Marble-FX-Trackball/...
But it would be a terrible 'center' trackball.
But it would be a terrible 'center' trackball.
I use a Marble FX at home, they are wonderful. Hope it never breaks. At work I use an M570 which is also quite good (thumb-only trackball).
I've never been able to use a non-split keyboard comfortably for long periods of time. I used a Kinesis Ergo for awhile and generally liked it except that I still have to be able to use other people's keyboards from time to time and it was just too different. The Microsoft Natural 4000 has been my favorite for around 8 years but I wish I could get one with mechanical switches. It has a slight curve - the "flat but split" form factor of some others feels a little off to me.
Mine as well, I'd very much like a mechanical version with the exact same geometry, I even loved the massive removable rest once I got used to it, been able to use a keyboard in a neutral position had a massive impact on my wrist/arm pain (it pretty much went in about 6 weeks between the keyboard and tennis ball exercises).
How ergonomic are Matias switches compared to Cherry switches? My understanding is that the Matias' bottom out to register a keypress like the cheap rubber domes. I don't have much about Matias in my notes:
https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboa...
https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboa...
I haven't used them personally, but according to Matias all three of their switches actuate at 2.2mm and bottom out at 3.5mm.
http://matias.ca/switches/click/
http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
http://matias.ca/switches/linear/
http://matias.ca/switches/click/
http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
http://matias.ca/switches/linear/
How is this different than this? http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/
This is my daily driver and I really love it! It's mechanical, split and the layout is really not esoteric. The major upside from the UHK would be total firmware configurability, not an option on the Matias Ergo pro.
I would have to remap 'Mouse' though as this is the place for my 'Ctrl' key (I use Emacs a lot).
I use this keyboard at home. While it checks everything off on my list (split, ergo, mech keys, ten keyless), the build quality feels a little cheap i.e. Loose keys that stick often. For ~$200 I expected more. Looking forward to the uhk.
Why are they using staggered keys? Because it's cheaper to produce and more familiar for most people? I can't go back to staggered keyboards after using one with a columnar layout. But I never liked staggered keyboards to begin with. For me it felt awkward to touch type (maybe a problem with my small hands, idk).
But the config looks beautiful.
My dream keyboard would be something like this: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy-keyboard-or-k80cs-k...
But the config looks beautiful.
My dream keyboard would be something like this: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy-keyboard-or-k80cs-k...
You might like this layout better:
http://shop.keyboard.io/
(disclaimer: I'm an investor in Keyboardio.)
(disclaimer: I'm an investor in Keyboardio.)
Yes, when the kickstarter launched I actually thought about backing the project, but I don't know if I can go back after experiencing the concave key wells of my Kinesis Advantage (I can't even decide what's more important to me - a columnar layout or concave key wells). But I will certainly give it a try when one of my friends or co workers get it (if they let me ;o). I especially like the key caps, the look beautiful and comfortable.
buying a new keyboard would be very easy for me if I hadn't gotten used to USB ports being built into them.
That's a feature fee manufacturers build in but damn is it useful.
That's a feature fee manufacturers build in but damn is it useful.
Kinesis Advantage - mechanical key split keyboard, 2 USB ports in the back. They're updating it, so if you're in no hurry, they'll be releasing an improved version at some point (AFAICT, months, not years, from now). https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac/
I too have a Kinesis Advantage and have had one for years: http://jakeseliger.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-ki.... So far it appears remarkably durable, and I much prefer it over conventional keyboards (though I still use laptop keyboards when I'm traveling).
Really?? Do you know if they'll make it wireless?
I love my Advantage. My only wishes are that it would be wireless and have room for Cmd, Ctrl, and Alt on both sides.
I love my Advantage. My only wishes are that it would be wireless and have room for Cmd, Ctrl, and Alt on both sides.
I believe they have not said anything about that yet. You can read a bit about their plans here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.0
I have the Advantage. It's awesome.
I didn't know they were updating it though, cool! Got mine a year or so ago.
I didn't know they were updating it though, cool! Got mine a year or so ago.
It's easy and cheap to tuck a small USB hub underneath a tented split keyboard, assuming that's what you want.
How is this different than an Ergodox other than it joining together? I can buy an Erogdox today for $199 shipped from China with cherry greens.
I have an ergodox yet preordered this one too. It's less non-standard (for better or for worse), has optional modules for trackpoint, touchpad, thumb cluster etc. I'm curious how it will compare. Also I don't know which ergodox you have, but for that money with cherries the build quality can't be all that good. Uhk has a steel base.
The layout is closer to the usual one (though it's still a bit unusual). Look at the right-hand side in particular.
Whether you approve or not is a separate question...
Whether you approve or not is a separate question...
[deleted]
I'll buy the split first keyboard with Topre switches. Matias is not enough of a step up from Cherry to make a difference.
So buy a utron?
http://xahlee.info/kbd/uTRON_keyboard.html
Wow, I've looked for something like that before, but never found anything. Thanks for pointing this out.
Keyboard layout looks good, but it doesn't look like the two halves can get far enough apart for me. Also $420USD !!!
400 USD and up seems to be the general price range for such keyboards in Japan. See also The Esrille New Keyboard − NISSE¹ (my personal dream keyboard).
――――――
¹ — http://www.esrille.com/keyboard/
――――――
¹ — http://www.esrille.com/keyboard/
You already pay a high premium for Topre switches.
I'd even say ALPS switches are a step down.
Matias hasn't made them suck any less than they always have.
Matias hasn't made them suck any less than they always have.
Granted I haven't tried the MX Clear, but so far I prefer the Matias Quiet click over the MX Brown or the MX Blue that I have in other keyboards.
They are absolutely a step down if you're looking into keycaps customization.
They are absolutely a step down if you're looking into keycaps customization.
I haven't used a Matias in some years, but I find the keys wobbly as heck and servicing them very breakage-prone.
Good: Split spacebar. Extra thumb button: only one of them per thumb, but that's a lot better than nothing.
Bad: No pointing stick, thumbable trackpad or other means of mouse-pointer control, so you still have to move your hand over and back between keyboard to mouse every time you need to switch between typing and pointer movement.
Bad: No pointing stick, thumbable trackpad or other means of mouse-pointer control, so you still have to move your hand over and back between keyboard to mouse every time you need to switch between typing and pointer movement.
check the add-on modules: https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard/up...
Very nice, and as they say quite exceptional. But pointing controls should really come as part of the default configuration (if not necessarily the minimal one): they're more important than the keyboard split, let alone clicky key actions.
You can control pointer with mouse button (left button on 3rd row) and ijkl for direction + sdf for mouse clicks. works quite well.
matter of personal taste, i'd probably prefer having extra keys there, if anything. Why is it not being included in the default configuration somehow worse than allowing you to choose what you want?
They have a trackball as an option if you want it. And a trackpoint. And a small touchpad.
I dunno, I think the ultimate hacker would sometimes reach over to the other side with her left or right hand. Split keyboards seem like kind of a walled garden to me.
Used to think that until I used a Ergo 4000 and within a week once the swearing stopped I realised I was never reaching over the river in the middle.
It also completely solved all the pain I was having in my arms and wrists so while I miss the key feel of my mechanical keyboard a little bit I wouldn't go back.
Something like this might be interesting though.
It also completely solved all the pain I was having in my arms and wrists so while I miss the key feel of my mechanical keyboard a little bit I wouldn't go back.
Something like this might be interesting though.
It's not as bad as it seems to make the switch. I switched from a regular QWERTY layout to an ErgoDox. It's split, and it's a columnar keyboard whereas standard keyboards are staggered like a typewriter.
It took me a week or two be able to touch type comfortably, and now I can switch back and forth without too much trouble.
It took me a week or two be able to touch type comfortably, and now I can switch back and forth without too much trouble.
[deleted]
Huh? I would think the ultimate hacker would use their tools with a bit of precision. Developers who use vim, for example, count the keystrokes:
http://vimgolf.com
https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
http://vimgolf.com
https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
I'm still waiting for someone to mass-produce the http://ergodox.org/ - here you can press all the modifier keys with your thumbs!