“Facebook has destroyed the open web”(ibtimes.co.uk)
ibtimes.co.uk
“Facebook has destroyed the open web”
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mark-zuckerberg-hypocrite-facebook-has-destroyed-open-web-1559298
89 comments
"Hyperlinks still work."
I observe that this is increasingly no longer true. Links no longer show you when you have visited them. Chains of 301s are common. Tracking links are now the norm. The link text almost never is where you are actually going. Pages automatically redirect you based on a ton of probed information (mobile, desktop, tablet, logged in to G+, logged into facebook, etc), and even normal browser shortcuts to interact with them are no longer working correctly with so many weird effing span and divs being recast into "links" that never work right, in css of all things.
No no. The modern hyperlink is totally busted. I blame the framework hockers and the halfass web"app" community.
I observe that this is increasingly no longer true. Links no longer show you when you have visited them. Chains of 301s are common. Tracking links are now the norm. The link text almost never is where you are actually going. Pages automatically redirect you based on a ton of probed information (mobile, desktop, tablet, logged in to G+, logged into facebook, etc), and even normal browser shortcuts to interact with them are no longer working correctly with so many weird effing span and divs being recast into "links" that never work right, in css of all things.
No no. The modern hyperlink is totally busted. I blame the framework hockers and the halfass web"app" community.
Not to mention how many of these links link into closed networks like facebook and therefore are not even public available even thought they appear and are described to be.
There any good Chrome extensions out there that'll strip all of the tracking data from URLs as you browse?
I think that they mean instead of going to "http://example.com", the link is instead to "http://t.co/asdf11", which redirects you to example.com. It's hard to strip the tracking data away from links like this because resolving the link (to get the redirect) is needed.
The only alternative that I could think of is if there was a third-party who resolved the redirects. Something akin to a Bitcoin tumbler.
But, not all links like this are trying to track individuals (like ads), rather "engagement" or marketing sources (A FB post might get one tracking link whereas a tweet might get another). These are legitimate questions that aren't necessarily nefarious. But at the same time, it does go against the spirit, if not the meaning, of "hyperlink".
The only alternative that I could think of is if there was a third-party who resolved the redirects. Something akin to a Bitcoin tumbler.
But, not all links like this are trying to track individuals (like ads), rather "engagement" or marketing sources (A FB post might get one tracking link whereas a tweet might get another). These are legitimate questions that aren't necessarily nefarious. But at the same time, it does go against the spirit, if not the meaning, of "hyperlink".
I use DirectLinks by Canisbos (http://canisbos.com/directlinks). It strips the JS from Google and Facebook links and takes me directly to the page. Added bonus: you can copy a link on a Google search result and it will actually copy the link.
Sadly ironic: the link to download the extension is tracked. (http://imgur.com/EqZEdhH)
I must use 100+ links a day with 99% success rate.
If you use the web on the terms of content publishers, being flooded with ads, tracked everywhere, getting hit by malware every now and then, you will have a good success rate at "opening links".
Congratulations for that phyrric victory.
If one however desires even a little bit of control of their browsing experience, the hyperlink and the modern web are broken. It seems to be impossible to click a link and display a simple text with some images nowadays on the web, even if that's the great majority of the available content. Something will break - one will be treated either with an empty white page, missing menus, missing styles, etc.
Congratulations for that phyrric victory.
If one however desires even a little bit of control of their browsing experience, the hyperlink and the modern web are broken. It seems to be impossible to click a link and display a simple text with some images nowadays on the web, even if that's the great majority of the available content. Something will break - one will be treated either with an empty white page, missing menus, missing styles, etc.
I've been using Little Snitch (OSX) for a while now, and more recently set up a 'restricted' profile because I'm on a bad internet connection. It's shocking to notice how bloated almost all url endpoints are! It's a rare site that only produces one 'access' popup, and a large number of sites, in particular Big Media, make requests all over the place, most of them involving tracking, ads, or advertorials.
silv3r does have a point tho, increasingly pages change according to information they know about you. I'm from Brazil but I usually use browsers in english, which leads to weird experiences in some websites including google.
Nice job!
>easier for the lazy to connect with and stay within their own interest groups
Facebook reminds me of AOL. People who had AOL had no idea of anything outside of AOL. I had to show many how to get out of AOL and they were astonished there was so much more.
If Facebook was an ISP it truly would be the new AOL.
Facebook reminds me of AOL. People who had AOL had no idea of anything outside of AOL. I had to show many how to get out of AOL and they were astonished there was so much more.
If Facebook was an ISP it truly would be the new AOL.
There's always going to be a niche for a service that does what AOL and FB do.
FB will be killed by its successor soon - possibly within five years, certainly within 10.
Jury's out on whether it will be founded in the US, or whether it will even need a web browser.
(I strongly suspect the answer to both questions will be "no.')
FB will be killed by its successor soon - possibly within five years, certainly within 10.
Jury's out on whether it will be founded in the US, or whether it will even need a web browser.
(I strongly suspect the answer to both questions will be "no.')
There was one, but FB bought it ... WhatsApp (Now FB is using Whatsapp use all phone contacts in your address book stored and use that info to show your friends/people to connect with on FB... FB kept saying to connect with our local XYZ service provider :) as somehow his number was stored in my phone. )
> The internet (or more specifically, information) was going to get harder to find and navigate anyway, once you turn it loose on a few billion people.
That sheds light on a much scarier issue: Google.com has effectively BECOME the internet.
How do you find information that isn't indexed by Google? There has to be a better way than just word of mouth, but all other alternatives afforded by current tech will just shift the problem to some other megaportal.
That sheds light on a much scarier issue: Google.com has effectively BECOME the internet.
How do you find information that isn't indexed by Google? There has to be a better way than just word of mouth, but all other alternatives afforded by current tech will just shift the problem to some other megaportal.
> That sheds light on a much scarier issue: Google.com has effectively BECOME the internet.
I've noticed this in schools where Google products are used. The kids are now equating Google with the entire internet. They don't know anything about email - they just know Gmail. That's what is kind of scary to me. It's frustrating at home as well because while I am doing my best to educate the kids about technology, they are afraid to do anything outside of the Googlesphere and think things are broken if it doesn't perform just like the Google product. that's what I'm worried about. They don't see anything outside of the Google walled garden.
I've noticed this in schools where Google products are used. The kids are now equating Google with the entire internet. They don't know anything about email - they just know Gmail. That's what is kind of scary to me. It's frustrating at home as well because while I am doing my best to educate the kids about technology, they are afraid to do anything outside of the Googlesphere and think things are broken if it doesn't perform just like the Google product. that's what I'm worried about. They don't see anything outside of the Google walled garden.
I'd advocate a bit towards the opposite: why does it matter?
The future of technology is probably going to wind up being entirely based on walled ecosystems anyway. If you own a MacBook, it's already very enticing to tie that in with an iPhone, etc. It's all about tight integration. I'd also say there is not a single existing system that exists yet which provides the kind of tight integration I'm dreaming of. I'm talking about the kind of system where you buy a home and every single piece of technology in it is integrated. Truly and completely integrated, not the pseudo lame stuff we have today.
HN types love to rant against the Walled Garden™, as if it's by definition some terrible thing. The only reason negative aspects even exist today is because the walled gardens we have today are woefully incomprehensive. When the day comes that you can buy into an all-in-one ecosystem that actually takes care of everything you need, there will be no problem. I would happily "lock into a walled garden" if that garden contains every variety of plant known to mankind.
Back to responding more directly to the parent. It just doesn't matter if someone knows Google and only Google. People use what works for them, and why shouldn't they? When the day comes that Google vanishes or word spreads that you shouldn't use it anymore, your average citizen will easily migrate to whatever other service is the most popular replacement. The average person does not need to know what SMTP is; they need a system that lets them type in their message and hit "send". This is a good thing, not some terrible sadness.
The future of technology is probably going to wind up being entirely based on walled ecosystems anyway. If you own a MacBook, it's already very enticing to tie that in with an iPhone, etc. It's all about tight integration. I'd also say there is not a single existing system that exists yet which provides the kind of tight integration I'm dreaming of. I'm talking about the kind of system where you buy a home and every single piece of technology in it is integrated. Truly and completely integrated, not the pseudo lame stuff we have today.
HN types love to rant against the Walled Garden™, as if it's by definition some terrible thing. The only reason negative aspects even exist today is because the walled gardens we have today are woefully incomprehensive. When the day comes that you can buy into an all-in-one ecosystem that actually takes care of everything you need, there will be no problem. I would happily "lock into a walled garden" if that garden contains every variety of plant known to mankind.
Back to responding more directly to the parent. It just doesn't matter if someone knows Google and only Google. People use what works for them, and why shouldn't they? When the day comes that Google vanishes or word spreads that you shouldn't use it anymore, your average citizen will easily migrate to whatever other service is the most popular replacement. The average person does not need to know what SMTP is; they need a system that lets them type in their message and hit "send". This is a good thing, not some terrible sadness.
Part of the reason for the rant against the walled garden is that it threatens a developers ability to innovate without being threatened/limited/taxed/replaced by the gatekeeper.
Whether that's better for consumers is debatable (plethora of choice isn't necessary a good thing), but devs definitely give up a lot of power and leverage to the landlord.
Whether that's better for consumers is debatable (plethora of choice isn't necessary a good thing), but devs definitely give up a lot of power and leverage to the landlord.
This assumes an ecosystem based on apps from 3rd party developers. The real power is in having the company that is providing the system to also provide all the core functionality. Offloading the responsibility to "carry the platform" on 3rd party developers is a large part of the reason why no ecosystem provides an experience of integration that is satisfying. The first company to fully develop a system/platform that doesn't rely on 3rd party devs for basic development will be the first company that matches my vision of the future.
"Apps" from a large arsenal of companies instantly throws away any concept of uniformity. My bet is that the future holds fully walled gardens. To the point where, for example, every game you play will be released by the company that created the platform you choose. Even if it's just ports of a base game, that port will be released by the system creator, not the game developer/publisher. We just need the creators of the ecosystem to prioritize developing the entire system itself, rather than the current situation where they rely on 3rd party devs and attempt to reign control over them.
From what we've seen thus far, I am simply not confident that any platform will ever provide a fully immersive and integrated experience if it relies on SDKs and supposed "standards". The idea of a "standard" that actually gets followed to the letter is so far a mythical beast. I don't want my home automation system made up of devices from 20 different companies doing their "best" to interoperate properly. I want a single company to provide all the devices, and have them work flawlessly.
"Apps" from a large arsenal of companies instantly throws away any concept of uniformity. My bet is that the future holds fully walled gardens. To the point where, for example, every game you play will be released by the company that created the platform you choose. Even if it's just ports of a base game, that port will be released by the system creator, not the game developer/publisher. We just need the creators of the ecosystem to prioritize developing the entire system itself, rather than the current situation where they rely on 3rd party devs and attempt to reign control over them.
From what we've seen thus far, I am simply not confident that any platform will ever provide a fully immersive and integrated experience if it relies on SDKs and supposed "standards". The idea of a "standard" that actually gets followed to the letter is so far a mythical beast. I don't want my home automation system made up of devices from 20 different companies doing their "best" to interoperate properly. I want a single company to provide all the devices, and have them work flawlessly.
Naive. Word will not spread that one should not use Google/Facebook, they've turned milking their users for information into an art form.
And the plentiful misguided sympathizers making up excuses for them are muddying up the waters even more. I see you're at the point where "walled gardens are good". That freedom does have a certain flavor of slavery, doesn't it?
And the plentiful misguided sympathizers making up excuses for them are muddying up the waters even more. I see you're at the point where "walled gardens are good". That freedom does have a certain flavor of slavery, doesn't it?
Just because existing walled gardens are not ideal does not mean they could not be made to be wonderful. The largest complaint against them is that you lose some freedom of choice. A really nice ecosystem wouldn't leave you missing out on anything. It can be done, it's just that no company has yet done it the right way.
> It can be done, it's just that no company has yet done it the right way.
Actually, look at game consoles. They have always been the original "walled gardens", but, they still allowed users to install third-party software through physical media.
And people have been happy with that arrangement.
Actually, look at game consoles. They have always been the original "walled gardens", but, they still allowed users to install third-party software through physical media.
And people have been happy with that arrangement.
As a counterargument, even if you use Gmail (or any other email provider) there's nothing to stop you from using another provider and continuing to communicate with any other user via email.
But if you like Google+ more than Facebook for sharing messages, links, and pictures with friends and family, how do you do so if they're all only on Facebook? (Obviously this works either way).
The bit that really disappoints or bugs me is how something like email is still generally interoperable between providers so each individual user can pick whatever provider appeals to them, or even host their own. With closed social networks, you essentially must have an account on a given service in order to use them. If you want to use a different provider due to personal preference or some feature offered by one and not another, you either have to convince all of your contacts to switch over or accept that it's not happening.
At least with AOL email or whatever you could start using Yahoo or Hotmail or Gmail and continue to send messages to your mom and your boss and your doctor's office even if they stubbornly clung to AOL. Today, when better social networking services and applications come out, you can try them out but (as Google+ showed) they become pretty sparse when a majority of users are happy to stay with what they know and there's no way you'll get most to consider using a different service.
But if you like Google+ more than Facebook for sharing messages, links, and pictures with friends and family, how do you do so if they're all only on Facebook? (Obviously this works either way).
The bit that really disappoints or bugs me is how something like email is still generally interoperable between providers so each individual user can pick whatever provider appeals to them, or even host their own. With closed social networks, you essentially must have an account on a given service in order to use them. If you want to use a different provider due to personal preference or some feature offered by one and not another, you either have to convince all of your contacts to switch over or accept that it's not happening.
At least with AOL email or whatever you could start using Yahoo or Hotmail or Gmail and continue to send messages to your mom and your boss and your doctor's office even if they stubbornly clung to AOL. Today, when better social networking services and applications come out, you can try them out but (as Google+ showed) they become pretty sparse when a majority of users are happy to stay with what they know and there's no way you'll get most to consider using a different service.
It just requires a group of people to start a new bunch of niche indexing projects.
My idea, which may be a bit off the wall, is really to go down a path whereby you only index a subject. So node.js guys just give a search engine that indexes node.js material, Python people index Python articles, short-haired cat people index only short-haired cats... They key is to make the subject you are indexing manageable in scope. So you keep it small.
The key things that Google have IMO is how good they are at locating documents, and ensuring that they have mapped out their search to what is relevant. But I think that for those who know what they are looking for, specific indexing of a particular domain of knowledge would make searching more relevant.
Now the next steps are to find a way to discover this content. But in this case, submitting to the smaller indexers would be helpful. Take HN for instance - in the grand scheme of things it's a big index of stuff that interests hackers, now if you indexed HN that would be a search engine based on user submitted links.
Then you could figure out a way for indexes to collaborate with each other.
What it would in essence do would be to democratize search. And it would penalise information that wasn't in the open, though someone could make it work by paying for links to good content and charging a monthly fee to use their index. The index would be a broker, but the more reputable it is the more content it can index. And the market would stabilise on a price - if you can't afford it, you use a competitor, of you could make your own.
It would need a framework for decentralised collaboration, and perhaps a good mechanism for the indexing and displaying search results.
Just an idea. Might not be practical!
My idea, which may be a bit off the wall, is really to go down a path whereby you only index a subject. So node.js guys just give a search engine that indexes node.js material, Python people index Python articles, short-haired cat people index only short-haired cats... They key is to make the subject you are indexing manageable in scope. So you keep it small.
The key things that Google have IMO is how good they are at locating documents, and ensuring that they have mapped out their search to what is relevant. But I think that for those who know what they are looking for, specific indexing of a particular domain of knowledge would make searching more relevant.
Now the next steps are to find a way to discover this content. But in this case, submitting to the smaller indexers would be helpful. Take HN for instance - in the grand scheme of things it's a big index of stuff that interests hackers, now if you indexed HN that would be a search engine based on user submitted links.
Then you could figure out a way for indexes to collaborate with each other.
What it would in essence do would be to democratize search. And it would penalise information that wasn't in the open, though someone could make it work by paying for links to good content and charging a monthly fee to use their index. The index would be a broker, but the more reputable it is the more content it can index. And the market would stabilise on a price - if you can't afford it, you use a competitor, of you could make your own.
It would need a framework for decentralised collaboration, and perhaps a good mechanism for the indexing and displaying search results.
Just an idea. Might not be practical!
I really like your enthusiasm and I can tell you put a lot of thought into this.
In regards to the parent comment's concerns about Google, though, I don't think he is saying that their indexing algorithm needs to be improved upon, or even that we need an alternative to it. I read it as "Google, in its ability to select sites for indexing, can control people's access to information and can therefore manipulate thought".
The problem is that Google has so much power and inherent ulterior motives as a company that make it potentially threatening.
I think that's why you're pitching this project to democratize search, but I think what you just pitched is a Google/Reddit hybrid--or basically a search engine that only gives results from a selected subreddit. Which could be cool, and I don't know if that exists or not.
However, I think the solution to displacing Google from being the internet itself is to make an open source search engine that is equally good as a search tool, but can sell itself on the basis that it doesn't track you or record your information (or if it does, there is no way for a human person to access your information).
I think the solution is DuckDuckGo.
In regards to the parent comment's concerns about Google, though, I don't think he is saying that their indexing algorithm needs to be improved upon, or even that we need an alternative to it. I read it as "Google, in its ability to select sites for indexing, can control people's access to information and can therefore manipulate thought".
The problem is that Google has so much power and inherent ulterior motives as a company that make it potentially threatening.
I think that's why you're pitching this project to democratize search, but I think what you just pitched is a Google/Reddit hybrid--or basically a search engine that only gives results from a selected subreddit. Which could be cool, and I don't know if that exists or not.
However, I think the solution to displacing Google from being the internet itself is to make an open source search engine that is equally good as a search tool, but can sell itself on the basis that it doesn't track you or record your information (or if it does, there is no way for a human person to access your information).
I think the solution is DuckDuckGo.
If you know how to do the topic detection you don't need separate indexes
>There has to be a better way than just word of mouth, but all other alternatives afforded by current tech will just shift the problem to some other "megaportal."
I don't see why there has to be. Word of mouth is probably the best method possible.
I don't see why there has to be. Word of mouth is probably the best method possible.
well said. FB just makes it easy for lazy people to use the Internet. It turns out that most people don't want much more of a challenge beyond just reading their feeds.
plus. it's blue. people like blue.
plus. it's blue. people like blue.
> Facebook hasn't destroyed the web - it's still there and functioning fine. Hyperlinks still work.
Completely agree.
And let's choose something else similar, for the sake of argument.
Google dominates web search at 64% of searches: https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Market-Rankings/comScore-R...
Post anyone could write: "That's so unfair, because Google owns more than half of all searches. They get to decide what you find on the web!"
In fact, the argument of the bias bubble is the one that Duck Duck Go uses, and I don't disagree with it. Google's results are biased.
However, does the fact that Google can and does hide some (or even many) relevant pages on the web from you make them responsible for "closing the web"?
Of course not! Without Google, instead of random but relevant websites and blogs providing answers when you search, you'd probably go to a centralized sites for information or data, which could be biased and ignorant.
Without Google, think of all of the internet companies that never would have grown because they would never have been found.
Back to Facebook. Sure, many on Facebook just share photos, comments, have discussions, etc. But, there are a lot of links shared and pages you can like to get more links in your feed. As a Facebook user, I see much more new content and read information I would have been unaware of if I'd only been reading HN or a news website. I also share the best stories from HN, exposing a number of my friends to articles they would not have otherwise read.
In my opinion, Facebook hasn't closed the web. In fact, it seems that the web would have been more closed if Facebook and Google had never existed.
Completely agree.
And let's choose something else similar, for the sake of argument.
Google dominates web search at 64% of searches: https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Market-Rankings/comScore-R...
Post anyone could write: "That's so unfair, because Google owns more than half of all searches. They get to decide what you find on the web!"
In fact, the argument of the bias bubble is the one that Duck Duck Go uses, and I don't disagree with it. Google's results are biased.
However, does the fact that Google can and does hide some (or even many) relevant pages on the web from you make them responsible for "closing the web"?
Of course not! Without Google, instead of random but relevant websites and blogs providing answers when you search, you'd probably go to a centralized sites for information or data, which could be biased and ignorant.
Without Google, think of all of the internet companies that never would have grown because they would never have been found.
Back to Facebook. Sure, many on Facebook just share photos, comments, have discussions, etc. But, there are a lot of links shared and pages you can like to get more links in your feed. As a Facebook user, I see much more new content and read information I would have been unaware of if I'd only been reading HN or a news website. I also share the best stories from HN, exposing a number of my friends to articles they would not have otherwise read.
In my opinion, Facebook hasn't closed the web. In fact, it seems that the web would have been more closed if Facebook and Google had never existed.
> the lazy
the same lazies who refuse to install linux i presume. The lazies who refuse to become experts and share your ideas of the world. This culture, too lazy to create a decent user experience- deserves to suffer.
the same lazies who refuse to install linux i presume. The lazies who refuse to become experts and share your ideas of the world. This culture, too lazy to create a decent user experience- deserves to suffer.
"hyperlinks still work"
Not on Facebook, which is the whole point. You can paste URLs into Facebook, but they aren't hypertext.
Not on Facebook, which is the whole point. You can paste URLs into Facebook, but they aren't hypertext.
On "the open web", which is mentioned on the point, they still do.
It is ironic considering there is a popup when you scroll down to the end of the article that asks you to share it on Facebook.
Totally agree. Facebook is dotcom equivalent of AOL. Hopefully it goes away.
And I remember the net before the web. FTP, Gopher, and lynx. So why did a 'web browser' succeed? Because you could integrate bandwidth hogging graphics?? or was it to mimic the gui interfaces of mac OS, windows, BEos, etc? I still mourn the loss of the newsgroups and usenet. Well, Usenet is still around, but in name only. So what's next-VR interfaces?
The web and FB has made us dumber- we point and click and no longer have to search and think.
The web and FB has made us dumber- we point and click and no longer have to search and think.
>The web and FB has made us dumber- we point and click and no longer have to search and think.
That is a bold and baseless statement.
That is a bold and baseless statement.
I'm young enough that I've never had to use any of these, except for FTP. But the contemporary needlessly bloated and avertising-centered web does make me nostalgic for things I didn't experience. It even makes browsing through Html-only sites feels refreshing.
I've read the "blogs were great, FB is bad" article a few times in recent years and put it off as whining. I was a whiner myself when Usenet gave way to blogs but got over it.
However, it might be different in emerging markets where phones are the primary platform and FB may be dominating, not really sure if that's true but certainly different from the US.
However, it might be different in emerging markets where phones are the primary platform and FB may be dominating, not really sure if that's true but certainly different from the US.
I've heard a story from an acquaintance from Germany: their kids were ostracised in school by the others until they had a smartphone and started using WhatsApp.
Whenever WhatsApp is shut down in Brazil, a local chimes that it's used everywhere, even by emergency medical service personnel.
That should cause one some uneasy feelings...
Whenever WhatsApp is shut down in Brazil, a local chimes that it's used everywhere, even by emergency medical service personnel.
That should cause one some uneasy feelings...
The article is as stupid as the website it's on is. Value-added sharing mechanisms that take the expertise out of creating useful Internet content does not de-democratize the Internet. You are still as free as before to make your own websites and share your content the way it was done before Facebook. Facebook is popular but that can't be held against it.
More generally, populism by itself does not threaten democracy. It's when the people that elect demagogues let those demagogues destroy public institutions that democracy is undermined. But it's the people that are at fault here, they are the ones that let themselves get hoodwinked.
Napoleon destroyed the French Republic. But the French were absolutely complicit and just let him do it because they were hungry for empire. All of Europe was like that back then and she wasn't cured of that disease until WW2 showed them how utterly stupid warmongering in the Industrial age was.
More generally, populism by itself does not threaten democracy. It's when the people that elect demagogues let those demagogues destroy public institutions that democracy is undermined. But it's the people that are at fault here, they are the ones that let themselves get hoodwinked.
Napoleon destroyed the French Republic. But the French were absolutely complicit and just let him do it because they were hungry for empire. All of Europe was like that back then and she wasn't cured of that disease until WW2 showed them how utterly stupid warmongering in the Industrial age was.
> You are still as free as before to make your own websites and share your content the way it was done before Facebook.
And nobody will read them if you don't integrate with Facebook and other social media--where you will be censored.
> But it's the people that are at fault here, they are the ones that let themselves get hoodwinked.
Did you really claim that scam victims are to blame when they get scammed, and not the scammers? I'm all for avoiding naiveté, but that doesn't excuse the actions of manipulative people and organizations.
And nobody will read them if you don't integrate with Facebook and other social media--where you will be censored.
> But it's the people that are at fault here, they are the ones that let themselves get hoodwinked.
Did you really claim that scam victims are to blame when they get scammed, and not the scammers? I'm all for avoiding naiveté, but that doesn't excuse the actions of manipulative people and organizations.
> And nobody will read them if you don't integrate with Facebook and other social media--where you will be censored.
That's not an issue with Facebook, it's the natural consequence of being popular. Things are popular because the public likes them. You can't say that something being powerful because the public made them powerful is undemocratic. Either you're giving the public what they want or you're not. Dethroning Facebook would be profoundly undemocratic. Facebook is a public institution, albeit under private management.
> Did you really claim that scam victims are to blame when they get scammed, and not the scammers?
The people are bigger than the politicians. Politicians have to, at some point, give the people what they want. The days where you can brutally put down rebellions is over. Not even CCP can get away with it. Napoleon could not have given Europe war if the French truly didn't want war.
Napoleon did not have to scam the French, they went into it willingly.
Democracy is the progressive march of what most people want over what a few people want. If what most people want is stupid, democracy will not save you from that.
That's not an issue with Facebook, it's the natural consequence of being popular. Things are popular because the public likes them. You can't say that something being powerful because the public made them powerful is undemocratic. Either you're giving the public what they want or you're not. Dethroning Facebook would be profoundly undemocratic. Facebook is a public institution, albeit under private management.
> Did you really claim that scam victims are to blame when they get scammed, and not the scammers?
The people are bigger than the politicians. Politicians have to, at some point, give the people what they want. The days where you can brutally put down rebellions is over. Not even CCP can get away with it. Napoleon could not have given Europe war if the French truly didn't want war.
Napoleon did not have to scam the French, they went into it willingly.
Democracy is the progressive march of what most people want over what a few people want. If what most people want is stupid, democracy will not save you from that.
There is no such thing as a public institution under private management. Facebook is a corporate entity with control over a large part of the internet and no accountability towards their user base.
When a private institution has so much power there need to be rules put in place that make sure they won't abuse that power to the detriment of everyone else. Democracy is about people, not the rights of corporations.
Your claims about the power of the people are amusingly misguided as reading a little bit about history will tell you. Pointers: propaganda, public opinion manipulation.
When a private institution has so much power there need to be rules put in place that make sure they won't abuse that power to the detriment of everyone else. Democracy is about people, not the rights of corporations.
Your claims about the power of the people are amusingly misguided as reading a little bit about history will tell you. Pointers: propaganda, public opinion manipulation.
If you'd read more than "a little bit" of history, you'd be able to see these things in proper perspective.
Multinational corporations are inherently more democratic, more public, than governments. A government derives its capacity to operate from violence, you are forced to pay taxes.
A corporation has to be accountable to a marketplace, and must operate within the law of countries it operates in. Markets are ultimately more powerful than governments, that's why authoritarians want to tell people what they can sell to whom and how. Markets provide the people with ways to get things that don't come from the government, that's how they undermine authority.
I stand by my statement that Facebook is a public institution. It's publicly traded, you can buy voting shares and get a say in how the company is run. Of course Facebook is accountable to its user base, that's ultimately where they get all their revenue from. Facebook is more accountable than democratic governments are, you can't choose to not pay your taxes. Also, what is the practical difference between public and private management?
Manipulating public opinion is ridiculously hard and only the most hardcore authoritarian states are capable of doing so effectively. Even then it's a cat and mouse game, the truth has ways of getting out.
Multinational corporations are inherently more democratic, more public, than governments. A government derives its capacity to operate from violence, you are forced to pay taxes.
A corporation has to be accountable to a marketplace, and must operate within the law of countries it operates in. Markets are ultimately more powerful than governments, that's why authoritarians want to tell people what they can sell to whom and how. Markets provide the people with ways to get things that don't come from the government, that's how they undermine authority.
I stand by my statement that Facebook is a public institution. It's publicly traded, you can buy voting shares and get a say in how the company is run. Of course Facebook is accountable to its user base, that's ultimately where they get all their revenue from. Facebook is more accountable than democratic governments are, you can't choose to not pay your taxes. Also, what is the practical difference between public and private management?
Manipulating public opinion is ridiculously hard and only the most hardcore authoritarian states are capable of doing so effectively. Even then it's a cat and mouse game, the truth has ways of getting out.
> Multinational corporations are inherently more democratic, more public, than governments.
You have drunk so much of the capitalist Kool-aid that your brain is no longer receiving oxygen.
> A corporation has to be accountable to a marketplace
This is not democracy, it's plutocracy.
You have drunk so much of the capitalist Kool-aid that your brain is no longer receiving oxygen.
> A corporation has to be accountable to a marketplace
This is not democracy, it's plutocracy.
You're basically saying:
1. Facebook isn't responsible for the bad things they do because people let them do what they're doing.
2. Therefore Facebook isn't bad.
3. Therefore people should keep letting Facebook do what they're doing.
Do you really not see the problem here?
1. Facebook isn't responsible for the bad things they do because people let them do what they're doing.
2. Therefore Facebook isn't bad.
3. Therefore people should keep letting Facebook do what they're doing.
Do you really not see the problem here?
Facebook is prioritising native content over external hyperlinks. That's a subtle but significant lock in.
So? They aren't preventing you from going outside the service to find your own information. FB's policies dictate how you interact with FB, but you don't have to interact with FB at all, if you choose not to.
Once a platform becomes big enough, it doesn't matter what YOU can do if everyone else is on that platform. Whether YOU want to or not, your friends and family are probably on Facebook and you probably have to use gmail and WhatsApp to talk to them.
You argument is flat out wrong.
You argument is flat out wrong.
Two words: Richard Stallman. He uses no social service that I'm aware of, a command line email program and downloads web pages for later viewing (I do none of those things, btw).
YOU choose how you interact with the rest of the world. You may have those choices thrust in your face, but ultimately, it's up to you to decide.
Unless your IP and DNS are somehow restricted by your ISP, then you have access to all the tools you will need. If they are, there's probably little I can do to help you.
YOU choose how you interact with the rest of the world. You may have those choices thrust in your face, but ultimately, it's up to you to decide.
Unless your IP and DNS are somehow restricted by your ISP, then you have access to all the tools you will need. If they are, there's probably little I can do to help you.
I used to think that. Then my parents found Facebook and started using it. Their friends send them interesting content, which comes to their inbox where they consume it. Then, they do the natural thing and forward it to me if they think I'll find it interesting. Now, I have hundreds, if not thousands, of emails in my inbox with links that, if I click them, require me to login as my parents if I want to see the content.
The fact that Facebook doesn't send pure hyperlinks but, instead, links that funnel through Facebook to be authenticated and tracked, is extremely annoying and dangerous to a free and open web.
The fact that Facebook doesn't send pure hyperlinks but, instead, links that funnel through Facebook to be authenticated and tracked, is extremely annoying and dangerous to a free and open web.
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I feel "everyone" being afraid of words has destroyed the open web. Edit this, censor that, surpress this, etc etc.
Complacency and intolerance of other ideas is and always will be the issue.
Complacency and intolerance of other ideas is and always will be the issue.
To echo what everyone else has said, my feed is utter garbage and a lot of friends post stuff that makes me cringe. I've unsubscribed from the majority of my friends so now all I see are ads and sponsored posts.
Here's the thing, I get to see what events my friends are going to, which usually end up being really fun and not something I would have found out about otherwise. So nowadays I only use facebook to find and management events to attend.
Here's the thing, I get to see what events my friends are going to, which usually end up being really fun and not something I would have found out about otherwise. So nowadays I only use facebook to find and management events to attend.
The vast majority of those on Facebook were not the ones participating in the open web.
Open web sucked before Facebook. Facebook has created a nice safe sandbox for most people.
why couldn't we create a decentralized social network. could such a thing exist?
https://diasporafoundation.org/ and http://pump.io/ are attempts at that.
Have to second diaspora,Diaspora is a vestige of intellectual content and quality discussion.
Just like AOL, many facebook users think facebook is the internet.
Only fools believe (listen) a thief. As much as any PR guy.
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"Against this global community" "Going against progress"
Sorry Zuck, but shut the fuck up. All you want is more money and power. A great example is the free "internet" initiative he's pushing; all to lock people in Facebook.
This guy truly is, the world's biggest hypocrite. </rant>
This guy truly is, the world's biggest hypocrite. </rant>
Please don't. If you have a substantive critique to make, you're more than welcome to, but "shut the fuck up, "all you want is money and power", and "world's biggest hypocrite" is the opposite of that, and predictably degraded the thread.
Excuse my misbehavior, I became angry.
This guy truly is, the world's biggest hypocrite
"Like anyone can even know that."
"Like anyone can even know that."
The DNA of that person relates to a time when he called the users of fb "dumb f*cks"
Facebook is a fad. A damn big one I'll grant you but it's already losing it's grip on the next generation of users. It's huge now but I feel it's already lost it's luster, I mean come on, I'm a huge user (keeping up with friends across states is damn hard otherwise) and I can't stand being on it, and I know a lot of friends who feel the same.
It will have it's time, in due time. Hyperlinks are not dead.
It will have it's time, in due time. Hyperlinks are not dead.
my feed is garbage - just stupid memes and mostly sponsored posts. That said, most people I know use it as a "rolodex." It's the easiest way to add a contact and then quickly message them in the future. also, a lot of people still use it for events. people are still checking their feeds compulsively just out of a need for stimulation and when they feel lonely though. But facebook is basically a cloud contacts solution at this point.
Agreed. Facebook is pretty irrelevant with the High School crowd. Every has smart phones with apps that offer far less friction for communicating.
High school students will start using Facebook once they realize they can't keep "connected" with their high school friends that are studying in a bunch of different universities.
High School students already use social media to connect with their peers, they just aren't using Facebook to do it. Source: I teach.
Don't they have like 1.65B MAUs? How is that a fad?
If you don't have the younger markets, you don't have a future. Once their parents are on a service, the younger market isn't if they don't need to be.
Facebook is delaying it by playing big in International markets and in developing countries but the social aspects can't be outrun and won't change, as I said, it's a BIG fad but it's a fad and it will die a fad's death in due time.
Why do think Zuck is pushing the Facebook private Internet in the developing world so hard? He's not stupid, he sees the writing on the wall.
Facebook is delaying it by playing big in International markets and in developing countries but the social aspects can't be outrun and won't change, as I said, it's a BIG fad but it's a fad and it will die a fad's death in due time.
Why do think Zuck is pushing the Facebook private Internet in the developing world so hard? He's not stupid, he sees the writing on the wall.
I have read this comment so many times over the years, but if you look at the actual figures, this simply is not true. Young people all over the world continue to make Facebook accounts at record rates month over month, at higher rates than they do snapchat accounts or any other social media account. Younger people just make more accounts, and shape their identity in different ways across different accounts intentionally or not. 18-35 demographic is by far the largest on Facebook. If you look just at the U.K, 1.17 million 18 year olds have Facebook accounts vs. 920,000 Snapchat accounts (Experian is the source for these figures). Of course you could make the point that Facebook has a ridiculous amount of fake accounts, but I haven't seen any recent attempts at quantifying that, and they wouldn't be alone in that regard anyway. Facebook continues to aggressively update their products, and they aren't a stranger to what their users like or how they use their product, I think it is naive to declare it a fad, and it has already been around too long for it that term to describe it.
Try having fake accounts. It is really not as facebook would this make easy.
I hate FB and stopped using it a few months ago. But the people behind the company are pretty clever. They might have seen the writing on the wall and are trying to move pretty quickly to act against it. You've already alluded to one, but FB has also bought Oculus, Instagram and WhatsApp. All for ridiculous amounts of money, but with a crazy amount of potential. As a company FB isn't going anywhere, any time soon and by extension nor are its ideologies and practices.
True that, I'm sure the company will be around for a good long time, but the social network I think has another 10 years in it, tops. Then everyone will move onto the new shiny thing.
What FB has done is made it easier for the lazy to connect with and stay within their own interest groups. FB has made it easy for people to ignore negative information with tons of cat pictures (I am as guilty as anyone for that) and cheerful little meaningless quotes. It's made it easier to post misinformation and spread it quickly.
But none of that has destroyed the internet. The internet (or more specifically, information) was going to get harder to find and navigate anyway, once you turn it loose on a few billion people.
Sure, in the early days, you could encapsulate 75% of existing websites in one directory, but thanks to the efforts of spammers, link farmers, and other lowlife, in addition to the efforts of well-meaning people, and faulty and well-working search algorithms, it's a mess.
But it was going to happen and FB is not to blame for it. If they are to blame for it, we all equally share the guilt.