Two years spent spamming spammers back(medium.com)
medium.com
Two years spent spamming spammers back
https://medium.com/@beweinreich/two-years-spamming-spammers-back-2e734ce9593c#.djy3sqs70
139 comments
I was actually thinking it would be awesome to combine the two. Inject a phone number on one/some of the random responses and let Lenny pick up the phone and take it from there...
If you want a youtube clip to talk back to the spammer use : https://dubdial.com
disclosure: I am one of the author
disclosure: I am one of the author
This is great! I didn't know about Lenny :-D
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> Imagine if this type of thing happened in real-life. You walk out the door in the morning and you’re immediately attacked by Parul, Kevin, and Amelie.
I laughed out loud at this, because it's exactly what I'm experiencing now in West Africa.
Street vendors are aggressive about selling whatever they have, and they seem to assume I want it - almost like I owe it to them to buy it - I'm not sure if it's because I'm White, or it's just their standard procedure for everyone that walks by.
On my 3 minute walk to the local store, I get a minimum of 10 people in my face, trying to sell me cell phone recharge cards, peanuts and limes. Every single day I say no thanks, every single day they try again, sometimes even on the walk back.
I've tried ignoring them or not responding at all, and that usually makes it worse - they'll yell louder and louder (assuming I have not heard), hiss, make a kissing noise, and eventually put themselves in my way so I'm forced to acknowledge them.
Amazingly, even when I do buy something, and I clearly have it in my hand (a bunch of carrots for example), every single street vendor selling carrots will still try with 100% effort to sell me carrots.
I laughed out loud at this, because it's exactly what I'm experiencing now in West Africa.
Street vendors are aggressive about selling whatever they have, and they seem to assume I want it - almost like I owe it to them to buy it - I'm not sure if it's because I'm White, or it's just their standard procedure for everyone that walks by.
On my 3 minute walk to the local store, I get a minimum of 10 people in my face, trying to sell me cell phone recharge cards, peanuts and limes. Every single day I say no thanks, every single day they try again, sometimes even on the walk back.
I've tried ignoring them or not responding at all, and that usually makes it worse - they'll yell louder and louder (assuming I have not heard), hiss, make a kissing noise, and eventually put themselves in my way so I'm forced to acknowledge them.
Amazingly, even when I do buy something, and I clearly have it in my hand (a bunch of carrots for example), every single street vendor selling carrots will still try with 100% effort to sell me carrots.
Obviously not the same but I've had this happen in a couple places and I just say "FUCK OFF" as loud as I can and get visibly upset and they leave me alone after that.
I've done the same with similar people in Europe. If they don't understand a polite but firm "No", and keep bugging me, then a firm "FUCK OFF" is what they deserve.
Oddly, I've never had any animosity returned. Just a shrug of "Oh well, I tried".
Oddly, I've never had any animosity returned. Just a shrug of "Oh well, I tried".
....That's a horrible way to react. I wonder what these people think about you and your country of origin. You are, after all, an ambassador for your country when ever you are outside it.
This response just shows you are unfamiliar with these types of encounters or at the very least accepted behavior in such situations.
In one area I used to live in the general "proper" behavior when you are approached by street vendors or beggars was essentially 3 phase.
1) Ignore unless you intend to buy or give. This means you do not reply to anything they say or even make eye contact.
2) Engage verbally or even just visually. This means you intend to buy or give. Now you will be pressured and given an aggressive sell/ask.
3) If it was a mistaken engagement or you don't reach an agreement you MUST aggressively exit. This often means yelling, possibly swearing, and in some cases even putting your hands on someone and even verbally threatening in bad situations.
I spent a significant enough amount of my childhood growing up in this type of culture. My wife was always from a small city. When we later moved I explained to her that this was a big cultural difference than she was used to and the expected way to behave in these situations.
Being from a small city she thought this was disrespectful and continually made things, putting it lightly, more difficult for us.
Eventually it actually put us in a situation that escalated to being dangerous. A seller that she responded to with small talk became very angry that she had wasted his time. He then got in her face, put a hand on her shoulder and started screaming at her.
At that point I ran over, pushed the man off of her and said, "She doesn't fucking want anything. Now get the fuck out of our faces before I have to kick your ass."
After that happened she finally took my advice.
In one area I used to live in the general "proper" behavior when you are approached by street vendors or beggars was essentially 3 phase.
1) Ignore unless you intend to buy or give. This means you do not reply to anything they say or even make eye contact.
2) Engage verbally or even just visually. This means you intend to buy or give. Now you will be pressured and given an aggressive sell/ask.
3) If it was a mistaken engagement or you don't reach an agreement you MUST aggressively exit. This often means yelling, possibly swearing, and in some cases even putting your hands on someone and even verbally threatening in bad situations.
I spent a significant enough amount of my childhood growing up in this type of culture. My wife was always from a small city. When we later moved I explained to her that this was a big cultural difference than she was used to and the expected way to behave in these situations.
Being from a small city she thought this was disrespectful and continually made things, putting it lightly, more difficult for us.
Eventually it actually put us in a situation that escalated to being dangerous. A seller that she responded to with small talk became very angry that she had wasted his time. He then got in her face, put a hand on her shoulder and started screaming at her.
At that point I ran over, pushed the man off of her and said, "She doesn't fucking want anything. Now get the fuck out of our faces before I have to kick your ass."
After that happened she finally took my advice.
Where did you grow up where that's the norm? It sounds, uh, interesting.
It's quite common across the "third world," sorry can't think up a better term right now. But I've encountered very aggressive touts from India to Bahia, Brazil.
>....That's a horrible way to react.
Only if you operate under the assumption that they share your values. They may be accosting you because they see you as weak, and you may be representing your country or ethnicity poorly in their eyes.
Only if you operate under the assumption that they share your values. They may be accosting you because they see you as weak, and you may be representing your country or ethnicity poorly in their eyes.
This is dangerous advice.
There's been times where I've had hawkers and hasslers continually pester me, where I would ignore them or politely decline while walking away, yet they would begin touching me or continually follow me, leading to attempted pickpocketing, robbery, and sexual assault.
Some will touch you on the shoulder, others will maintain some distance and continually get closer to you only to make a swipe at your pocket then try to run away with your cell phone or wallet (happened to me twice).
One trinket-selling "monk" followed me into a building and grabbed me, but I managed to get back outside.
Another person followed me into three different public bathrooms, which I kept having to exit after he continually followed me and went to the urinal next to me so he could look over at my penis. Eventually he stopped only after I walked by a security guard and yelled about what he was doing.
It is 100% OK to yell at any hustler whom you are walking away from but is still following you. Not doing so was always how the aforementioned scenarios began.
They know your vulnerability is your politeness, your "ambassador" mentality. Don't remain vulnerable when they cross the line and keep following you.
There's been times where I've had hawkers and hasslers continually pester me, where I would ignore them or politely decline while walking away, yet they would begin touching me or continually follow me, leading to attempted pickpocketing, robbery, and sexual assault.
Some will touch you on the shoulder, others will maintain some distance and continually get closer to you only to make a swipe at your pocket then try to run away with your cell phone or wallet (happened to me twice).
One trinket-selling "monk" followed me into a building and grabbed me, but I managed to get back outside.
Another person followed me into three different public bathrooms, which I kept having to exit after he continually followed me and went to the urinal next to me so he could look over at my penis. Eventually he stopped only after I walked by a security guard and yelled about what he was doing.
It is 100% OK to yell at any hustler whom you are walking away from but is still following you. Not doing so was always how the aforementioned scenarios began.
They know your vulnerability is your politeness, your "ambassador" mentality. Don't remain vulnerable when they cross the line and keep following you.
Are you being serious?
> I wonder what these people think about you
If they're acting at all as GP described, then it's obvious they see you as another mark to aggressively try to extract money from.
Caring about what some bothersome strangers think about you and where you're from takes a distant backseat to standing up to aggression.
> I wonder what these people think about you
If they're acting at all as GP described, then it's obvious they see you as another mark to aggressively try to extract money from.
Caring about what some bothersome strangers think about you and where you're from takes a distant backseat to standing up to aggression.
> Are you being serious?
I am.
I'm the guy who wrote the story, maybe I did a bad job. It's not like they're getting violent or "trying to extract money from me" - jeez, when you do buy something you can just hold out a handful of money and they'll take the right amount - extremely, extremely honest.
In reality, they're just trying to sell their stuff, I don't understand why someone would react by yelling and getting angry.
I am.
I'm the guy who wrote the story, maybe I did a bad job. It's not like they're getting violent or "trying to extract money from me" - jeez, when you do buy something you can just hold out a handful of money and they'll take the right amount - extremely, extremely honest.
In reality, they're just trying to sell their stuff, I don't understand why someone would react by yelling and getting angry.
People are discussing very different situations.
You're describing routine purchases in (perhaps) a market in West Africa, probably with few tourists around. The hawkers aren't making any money from dishonest sales to tourists, and sales are probably reasonably consistent. Repeat customers are common.
The others are describing very popular tourist areas in poorer parts of Europe. All their money comes from tourists, sales rise and fall frequently, there are no repeat customers, and there is strong competition between hawkers for the best places, and possibly efforts to keep newcomers out of the trade.
You're describing routine purchases in (perhaps) a market in West Africa, probably with few tourists around. The hawkers aren't making any money from dishonest sales to tourists, and sales are probably reasonably consistent. Repeat customers are common.
The others are describing very popular tourist areas in poorer parts of Europe. All their money comes from tourists, sales rise and fall frequently, there are no repeat customers, and there is strong competition between hawkers for the best places, and possibly efforts to keep newcomers out of the trade.
Because it works. Its simply experimenting with different reactions until achieving the desired effect. I want to communicate disinterest in buying from street vendors. I try various forms/styles of communication until I accomplish my goal. I've had this problem in the USA, and merely looking unfriendly is often sufficient. In your situation, that's clearly inadequate.
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>>Because it works.
So does spam. That's why spammers keep sending it.
Does that mean it's OK? Clearly not.
So does spam. That's why spammers keep sending it.
Does that mean it's OK? Clearly not.
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Hmm different strokes I suppose, but I'd definitely interpret that behavior as aggression.
Out of curiosity, if they weren't trying to sell you anything, but were behaving like that (hissing/kissing/blocking your path), do you think getting angry would then be an appropriate response?
Out of curiosity, if they weren't trying to sell you anything, but were behaving like that (hissing/kissing/blocking your path), do you think getting angry would then be an appropriate response?
>In reality, they're just trying to sell their stuff, I don't understand why someone would react by yelling and getting angry.
In that case what you're doing seems to be significantly worse than saying "fuck off".
Maliciously wasting their time vs making it clear you aren't interested?
FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. I just think it's objectively worse than "yelling and getting angry".
In that case what you're doing seems to be significantly worse than saying "fuck off".
Maliciously wasting their time vs making it clear you aren't interested?
FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. I just think it's objectively worse than "yelling and getting angry".
It's not my first reaction, it's not something I do when I'm traveling, but it's either be slightly loud and aggressive or just suffer in silence. I chose the former.
Having just returned from a trip to England, whenever we were in touristy areas we saw a very high increase in the level of aggressiveness/pushiness while waiting in queues with certain foreign cultures.
At first we suffered in silence, thinking "well that's just the way they behave in their country", but towards the end we were very direct and to their face when being rude to finally get them to stop.
At first we suffered in silence, thinking "well that's just the way they behave in their country", but towards the end we were very direct and to their face when being rude to finally get them to stop.
Well, for some countries being an ambassador actually means being a rude, obnoxious asshole. They're just doing their duty and sharing their cultural values.
You sound like you clearly have no basis for offering this questionable advice, to put it very politely.
Mr everyone's hero
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Locals usually have a way to get rid of street vendors that is effective, so finding out what that is in your locality is a good idea.
In Mexico, it's Hoy no (Not today) and it works pretty well.
In Mexico, it's Hoy no (Not today) and it works pretty well.
Yeah, on a tour of the highlights of Istanbul we were taught the word is YOK! which in Turkish basically means "it does not exist" or "cancel" or something. It worked.
Why bother with that if you feel perfectly self-entitled, judging by the comments, to be aggressive and yell crude language at people who are just trying to make a living in a manner or cultural context you don't understand or want to have anything to do with?
I like where your thoughts are coming from. I also have a solid guess you've never experienced this enviroment. Imagine being swamped by a group of people that physically get in your way, shifting to stay in-front of you when you try and go around. You simply can't progress from people trying to get you to buy goods you really have no interest in. Your stuck for minutes at a time multiple times a block. Now imagine this happening EVERY day when you try and walk down the street outside your home/hotel.
Yes first couple of hours, maybe days, you will be polite and expect these values returned. But they wont be. Anything less than aggressive behavior is taken as sales potential. Quickly you will realise should you want to be able to walk down the street you must get rude fast to anyone that crosses the line. Some previous advice in this thread is good, avoid eye contact. If they respect that they can call out etc. As soon as they physically get in your space you need to let them know this is not acceptable. Polite simply doesn't work. Its not being self entitled. Its the cultural necessity of some countries.
Yes first couple of hours, maybe days, you will be polite and expect these values returned. But they wont be. Anything less than aggressive behavior is taken as sales potential. Quickly you will realise should you want to be able to walk down the street you must get rude fast to anyone that crosses the line. Some previous advice in this thread is good, avoid eye contact. If they respect that they can call out etc. As soon as they physically get in your space you need to let them know this is not acceptable. Polite simply doesn't work. Its not being self entitled. Its the cultural necessity of some countries.
> I also have a solid guess you've never experienced this environment.
Maybe there are worse environments that I have never experienced and where outright rudeness is the only answer, but as described I have experienced it and never had to resort to anything more than:
- keep moving at a firm pace
- avoid eye contact
- hold a hand up, palm outward, preemptively, as you move (I'm not a tourist, I work here)
- as a last resort, speak loudly and sternly in a local language without addressing anyone directly, "No, thank you," or "No!"
It's still rude, but I feel a far cry from defaulting to yelling obscenities and getting agitated.
As I said, maybe there are environments where that doesn't work, or maybe it just works for me. But defaulting to rudeness without even attempting to figure out the appropriate measure of sternness in a place where you are, for most intents and purposes, a guest, is poor form.
Yes, it is annoying, but nevertheless, you are in their country, and they are trying to make an honest (not counting the overpricing of their goods) living. If someone can't handle that, maybe they shouldn't have gone there.
Maybe there are worse environments that I have never experienced and where outright rudeness is the only answer, but as described I have experienced it and never had to resort to anything more than:
- keep moving at a firm pace
- avoid eye contact
- hold a hand up, palm outward, preemptively, as you move (I'm not a tourist, I work here)
- as a last resort, speak loudly and sternly in a local language without addressing anyone directly, "No, thank you," or "No!"
It's still rude, but I feel a far cry from defaulting to yelling obscenities and getting agitated.
As I said, maybe there are environments where that doesn't work, or maybe it just works for me. But defaulting to rudeness without even attempting to figure out the appropriate measure of sternness in a place where you are, for most intents and purposes, a guest, is poor form.
Yes, it is annoying, but nevertheless, you are in their country, and they are trying to make an honest (not counting the overpricing of their goods) living. If someone can't handle that, maybe they shouldn't have gone there.
>- keep moving at a firm pace
>- hold a hand up, palm outward, preemptively, as you move (I'm not a tourist, I work here)
What, push people out of the way?
And now that you've touched someone, they'll touch back...
>- hold a hand up, palm outward, preemptively, as you move (I'm not a tourist, I work here)
What, push people out of the way?
And now that you've touched someone, they'll touch back...
I didn't mean stretch your arm out for pushing, just hold your hand up to create some extra space in front of your face and signal you have no interest and you're in a hurry. It also helps avoiding eye contact.
> to be aggressive and yell crude language at people who are just trying to make a living in a manner or cultural context you don't understand or want to have anything to do with?
You're making a cultural assumption that the locals aren't rude to the hawkers. This is incorrect. The hawkers in fact are taking advantage of your unusual, culturally incorrect assumption that street hawkers shouldn't be treated aggressively, which is why tourists are their prefered market. How do you know the locals aren't quite rude or abrupt with the hawkers as well?
You're making a cultural assumption that the locals aren't rude to the hawkers. This is incorrect. The hawkers in fact are taking advantage of your unusual, culturally incorrect assumption that street hawkers shouldn't be treated aggressively, which is why tourists are their prefered market. How do you know the locals aren't quite rude or abrupt with the hawkers as well?
Osaka was once the commerce center of old Japan, and to a certain extent that legacy remains: Osaka street and open-shop vendors give no fucks and seem to really crave that tourist money in particular. It's not as bad as you've described, but you can expect to be called out to by every corner fashion boutique salesgirl or streetside takoyaki vendor. Some even go to the length of learning English.
The upside of this is that people don't shy away from Westerners the way they do in Tokyo, which makes for a smootger experience if you enjoy talking to natives.
The upside of this is that people don't shy away from Westerners the way they do in Tokyo, which makes for a smootger experience if you enjoy talking to natives.
>every single street vendor selling carrots will still try with 100% effort to sell me carrots //
It's like giving in to a nagging child - they now know that you're an easy mark and will be even more determined to break you because they now know they can. You bought carrots from someone else, probably to stop them hassling you, so now if I want to sell t you I know if I'm annoying enough the chances are high you'll buy from me too.
It's like giving in to a nagging child - they now know that you're an easy mark and will be even more determined to break you because they now know they can. You bought carrots from someone else, probably to stop them hassling you, so now if I want to sell t you I know if I'm annoying enough the chances are high you'll buy from me too.
Maybe that is where they came up with ad re-targeting.
I had a similar experience in Thessaloniki, Greece. In this city, there is a famous tourist attraction called The White Tower (which has grey color, by the way). One day, I had to wait in Thessaloniki for a couple of hours, and I decided that it would be a great idea to sit down near the tower.
Well, it turned out to be a bad idea. A few hundred meters from the tower, I was greeted by someone who self-identified as a "friend from Jamaica". He tried to advertise something, but walked away after I asked him politely. As I continued my journey, I met more and more of these "friends". When I eventually reached the tower, I discovered that about 10 of these guys were circling around it. They were all very polite, but they advertised their stuff every time they stumbled upon me, which happened about once per minute. After some time, I decided to find a different place to rest.
Well, it turned out to be a bad idea. A few hundred meters from the tower, I was greeted by someone who self-identified as a "friend from Jamaica". He tried to advertise something, but walked away after I asked him politely. As I continued my journey, I met more and more of these "friends". When I eventually reached the tower, I discovered that about 10 of these guys were circling around it. They were all very polite, but they advertised their stuff every time they stumbled upon me, which happened about once per minute. After some time, I decided to find a different place to rest.
Sounds like The White Tower in Thessaloniki is the street-level weed spot...
If you've ever been to NYC, this is pretty much the tour bus ticket salesmen. Some will follow you from behind with their arms outstretched in front of your face, flashing tour bus tickets.
After a particularly stressful day, one guy decides to take it upon himself to follow me like that for the better part of a city block. Ignoring him wasn't working, so I (honestly quite gently) brushed his hand out of my face, and the guy goes off, threatening to call the police and pulling in bystanders, asking if they just witnessed the terrible assault I've committed.
I guess the moral of the story is, don't work near Times Square.
After a particularly stressful day, one guy decides to take it upon himself to follow me like that for the better part of a city block. Ignoring him wasn't working, so I (honestly quite gently) brushed his hand out of my face, and the guy goes off, threatening to call the police and pulling in bystanders, asking if they just witnessed the terrible assault I've committed.
I guess the moral of the story is, don't work near Times Square.
I worked in Times Square for several years for two separate companies. I could make a long list of reasons why this is a disagreeable area to traverse twice a day, but that would be an emotive digression.
Instead I'll tell you what we locals do. You'll never be bothered by any vendor again. You do this : walk quickly, purposefully, scarcely making eye contact with your surroundings. Zig zag through crowds like it's destiny.
Perhaps I've made a terrible impression on the tourists I push past, but the signal I give off to vendors is, "I'm not in scope." I even act as a sort of sociopathic enforcer, particularly against those bus tour guys who stand in busy sidewalk areas with their signs.
I have intense familiarity with NYC Paris and London,having lived in all of these places. Being polite or nice or understanding to a random stranger on the sidewalk that wants something from me aggressively is to me a test to see whether I'm a sucker. Whether I'm vulnerable.
Save your politeness for people who aren't hustlers.
Instead I'll tell you what we locals do. You'll never be bothered by any vendor again. You do this : walk quickly, purposefully, scarcely making eye contact with your surroundings. Zig zag through crowds like it's destiny.
Perhaps I've made a terrible impression on the tourists I push past, but the signal I give off to vendors is, "I'm not in scope." I even act as a sort of sociopathic enforcer, particularly against those bus tour guys who stand in busy sidewalk areas with their signs.
I have intense familiarity with NYC Paris and London,having lived in all of these places. Being polite or nice or understanding to a random stranger on the sidewalk that wants something from me aggressively is to me a test to see whether I'm a sucker. Whether I'm vulnerable.
Save your politeness for people who aren't hustlers.
Next time: sneeze on their hands.
Assault with a deadly weapon, depending on your germs.
Somebody sticks their hands in my face just as I'm about to sneeze, you're gonna have a hard time proving that one, assuming anything projected from a sneeze could possibly constitute a deadly weapon. A ham sandwich would be too large, and an unrealistic example.
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I found that just looking at them with an unconcerned, disinterested expression, then carrying on my way did the trick.
I had a similar experience in China and found it very helpful that a friend told me how to say "I don't want it" in Mandarin (Bu yao). Vendors will ignore your polite "No thank yous" in English, but they went away much faster after speaking their own language.
I was in Kraków and experienced something like this, albeit... possibly not as bad. I would put in headphones (a white and visible pair), and people would leave me alone.
Back in the olden days, when the ping of death causing a windows BSOD was a thing, if I was online when I got spam I would immediately look for the spammer's ip and send them a ping of death. I could tell it often worked because then I'd get the same spam again 10 minutes later, so I'd do it to them again, then I'd get spammed again and ping them again until eventually they gave up.
I assume their mass mailing program would just start at the top of an email list and send them one by one, without tracking progress, so when the computer crashed they would have to start over. After a few crashes in a row hopefully the spammer would blame the spam sending program for crashing the computer and give up, maybe even demand a refund from whoever sold it to them.
I assume their mass mailing program would just start at the top of an email list and send them one by one, without tracking progress, so when the computer crashed they would have to start over. After a few crashes in a row hopefully the spammer would blame the spam sending program for crashing the computer and give up, maybe even demand a refund from whoever sold it to them.
One spammer realised that he is talking to a bot and asks the bot about the three laws.
http://www.mlooper.com/conversations/3072
http://www.mlooper.com/conversations/3072
This kinda rocked my view on spammers. It's easy to group them together and have a lot of prejudice, but clearly they come in all kinds of forms.
I would say that this sort of service spam is generally on a different tier from your classic 419 garbage or whatever. Usually those outfits will have their most competent person dealing with email to rope in new customers.
Amusing aside: I once hired one of these Indian web dev outsourcing firms to create a super simple form for one of our sites. (Not from a spam email, which I certainly wouldn't want to reward, but probably a similar outfit.) We could have done it in house, but I wanted to see how viable it would be to farm out simple, nicely encapsulated work when it came up.
Their failures were many and varied, but the most hilarious was when one of them wanted to givea section of form an orange border. (For some reason. The site's colour scheme was mostly greens with no orange to be seen.) Anyway, he decided the best way to do this was to find an enormous png of a sunset (multiple megabytes), and repeat a small strip of the top 10px or so as a background image in a div behind the area. I'm still not sure whether I was being trolled, or if incompetence on that scale is actually possible. (Normally I would assume it must be the former, but given their myriad other screw-ups, I'm not entirely sure.)
Every time I would write to complain about something utterly idiotic they'd done, they would wholeheartedly agree, share in my amazement at how foolish it was, and assure me that that junior programmer had been removed, and someone more senior would be taking over the project. (I went through a couple of levels of seniority, then eventually gave up when the Senior Lead Architect or whoever delivered the orange border monstrosity.)
Anyway, the most competent person in that company was definitely the one sending the emails.
Amusing aside: I once hired one of these Indian web dev outsourcing firms to create a super simple form for one of our sites. (Not from a spam email, which I certainly wouldn't want to reward, but probably a similar outfit.) We could have done it in house, but I wanted to see how viable it would be to farm out simple, nicely encapsulated work when it came up.
Their failures were many and varied, but the most hilarious was when one of them wanted to givea section of form an orange border. (For some reason. The site's colour scheme was mostly greens with no orange to be seen.) Anyway, he decided the best way to do this was to find an enormous png of a sunset (multiple megabytes), and repeat a small strip of the top 10px or so as a background image in a div behind the area. I'm still not sure whether I was being trolled, or if incompetence on that scale is actually possible. (Normally I would assume it must be the former, but given their myriad other screw-ups, I'm not entirely sure.)
Every time I would write to complain about something utterly idiotic they'd done, they would wholeheartedly agree, share in my amazement at how foolish it was, and assure me that that junior programmer had been removed, and someone more senior would be taking over the project. (I went through a couple of levels of seniority, then eventually gave up when the Senior Lead Architect or whoever delivered the orange border monstrosity.)
Anyway, the most competent person in that company was definitely the one sending the emails.
I will admit that I have done this (bg repeat) too, on my lycos,geocities sites.
This reminds me of a script I wrote about a decade ago to deal with phishing sites. My script generated first and last names, email addresses, passwords, and credit card numbers that actual passed checksum validation. It would submit these fake entries to a phishing form just as fast as the remote end would take them, polluting their database/inbox/whatever with thousands of bogus submissions. Besides wasting their time and resources, it also smokescreened any legitimate submissions that might have come through.
Reminds me of the cities that setup robocallers to cut down on illegal signs.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-19/news/os-litte...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-19/news/os-litte...
This is great, and would be even more brilliant if it could integrate some sort of markov chain, like https://www.reddit.com/r/subredditsimulator
I'd love to see it have random answers that are unique based on the question. Then you make it a global service that hundreds of thousands of people can forward messages to, and then you waste spammers time en masse.
I'd love to see it have random answers that are unique based on the question. Then you make it a global service that hundreds of thousands of people can forward messages to, and then you waste spammers time en masse.
The problem with a markov chain is that the sentences it generates are often nonsensical. A markov chain is useful for predicting a few words out of a sentence a human already has generated, but not an entire sentence.
These guys operate on an ROI basis. If you waste their time you decrease their ROI.
Great tool.
Great tool.
This is why I tend to take spam phone calls for double glazing and PPI. I talked to a guy for an hour once. My strategy to be the affable fool.
Tom Mabe did this and recorded it- released a hilarious cd
Is that the guy with the fake crime scene?
Best one ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmKtS-k12b0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmKtS-k12b0
Yes. That one is great.
Effing hilarious. Some years ago I spent a few days writing to a 'Russian bride'. It became instantly clear all replies were scripted, there was no connection at all with what I said (The full text of 'I, Robot'? Oh, what interesting things you do…). So I'd say many if not most of the spam scenarios are automated and the whole thing becomes too meta.
If you find this funny, I highly recommend this TED talk: "This is what happens when you reply to a spam email"
https://www.ted.com/talks/james_veitch_this_is_what_happens_...
https://www.ted.com/talks/james_veitch_this_is_what_happens_...
It would be great if someone could implement this as a free public service, using neural algorithms to generate responses.
http://www.419eater.com has many organic neural nets doing just that. (Sorry, I've always wanted to make that joke.)
I agree. But I have to say I had a chuckle that the second half of your sentence looks like hipster mode to me.
There are services for this already, actually, such as wit.ai and api.ai. Wit.ai is free.
You could train an LSTM network to generate responses in the same way that google's inbox response suggestions work. Requires a mountain of source data, but hey, you probably have 30GB of email sitting in your Gmail, right?
Actually I think a NN might require way too much supervision. You could feed exits (emails that got no response) into a decision tree to know what to send at any point in the chain to maximize response.
Great idea!
I'm sure that GitHub community will help to make it even better
https://github.com/beweinreich/mlooper
I'm sure that GitHub community will help to make it even better
https://github.com/beweinreich/mlooper
The logic made me laugh :)
def random_reply
reply = Reply.order("RAND()").first.content
# if the conversation is getting long, start injecting hipster sentences to the end...
if self.conversation.emails.count > 10
reply << " #{Faker::Hipster.sentence}"
end
return reply
end
Love it! For physical spam mails with business reply envelope, I always fold everything back into the envelope and send it back.
Never thought of that, good call. They presumably pay for the reply postage, reducing their ROI.
Just remember to tear-off anything that looks personally identifiable ( address, reference numbers etc ).
There used to be a trick in the UK of attaching reply envelopes to bricks and putting them back into the postal system, hoping that the spammer would be charged by weight, but Royal Mail put an end to that.
There used to be a trick in the UK of attaching reply envelopes to bricks and putting them back into the postal system, hoping that the spammer would be charged by weight, but Royal Mail put an end to that.
Slightly OT but that's because one of the biggest customers of postal services are direct marketers. By sending a brick you're abusing the system and harassing the real customers.
Junk mail wastes more resources in a day than spam ever will. Spam should be legal and junk mail should not be.
Aren't most of these spam emails automated anyway? If it's just two bots talking, you're not really wasting anybody's time/resources.
I was just wondering: if every person did this with the spam they get (or maybe automatized by Gmail), spammers would be overflowed with bot answers to their spam emails, and would not be able to differentiate between a potential victim's response, and all the bot replys. This has the potential to actually SOLVE the problem of spam. Think this could work?
A lot of spam doesn't expect a response and only cares about link impressions.
I once made the mistake of sending a joke reply to a spammer from my legitimate email.
Turned out they pulled my phone number from the WHOIS info on my domain which I can only assume they sold to some marketing companies as I received about a dozen cold calls from various "web agencies" from the states. A lot of them were relentless, calling me repeatedly and leaving voicemails.
Turned out they pulled my phone number from the WHOIS info on my domain which I can only assume they sold to some marketing companies as I received about a dozen cold calls from various "web agencies" from the states. A lot of them were relentless, calling me repeatedly and leaving voicemails.
Sure, great idea, funny and clever and all that.
But I disagree with the idea that inboxes are sacred, and disagree with the attitude of "how dare people send marketing to me!" Fraudulent spam is one thing. Plain old marketing or sales cold calls, though... you know people are going to do it. It is their job. And I'd much rather get emails than I can quickly delete and ignore vs. phone calls. And once in a while, someone actually hits on a service that is useful to me.
So I don't think the real-life scenario of people badgering you outside the door is accurate. The better metaphor would be one comparing your inbox to your actual mailbox. Sure, junk mail is annoying and most of it gets thrown out. But sometimes that restaurant down the street does send coupons.
But I disagree with the idea that inboxes are sacred, and disagree with the attitude of "how dare people send marketing to me!" Fraudulent spam is one thing. Plain old marketing or sales cold calls, though... you know people are going to do it. It is their job. And I'd much rather get emails than I can quickly delete and ignore vs. phone calls. And once in a while, someone actually hits on a service that is useful to me.
So I don't think the real-life scenario of people badgering you outside the door is accurate. The better metaphor would be one comparing your inbox to your actual mailbox. Sure, junk mail is annoying and most of it gets thrown out. But sometimes that restaurant down the street does send coupons.
You are welcome to disagree with the notion for your inbox. If you want spam, godspeed. But other people get to decide for their inboxes.
And as to this: "You know people are going to do it. It is their job." This always puzzles me. So what?
Telemarketers are just doing their job. Door-to-door salesmen are just doing their job. Pickpockets and hit men are just doing their job. That people have found a way to make a living from being an asshole does not mean I have to support them in any way.
In the end, the purpose of most advertising and sales activity is to manipulate people into buying something regardless of the purchaser's utility or need. This is a fundamentally disrespectful activity; the people they attempt to manipulate owe them no respect in return.
And as to this: "You know people are going to do it. It is their job." This always puzzles me. So what?
Telemarketers are just doing their job. Door-to-door salesmen are just doing their job. Pickpockets and hit men are just doing their job. That people have found a way to make a living from being an asshole does not mean I have to support them in any way.
In the end, the purpose of most advertising and sales activity is to manipulate people into buying something regardless of the purchaser's utility or need. This is a fundamentally disrespectful activity; the people they attempt to manipulate owe them no respect in return.
> You are welcome to disagree with the notion for your inbox.
And we did, by implementing Bayesian spam filters, not be making spam illegal. It's a bit rich to think we can legislate a global Internet.
> Telemarketers are just doing their job. Door-to-door salesmen are just doing their job. Pickpockets and hit men are just doing their job.
These are differences of kind, not degree.
> That people have found a way to make a living from being an asshole does not mean I have to support them in any way.
Feel free to spend your money how you please, but do we really have to write it into the law?
Why is junk mail legal but spam is not? It's because Congress could understand the mechanics of junk mail, not because junk mail has any sort of moral or societal value lacking in spam.
> In the end, the purpose of most advertising and sales activity is to manipulate people into buying something regardless of the purchaser's utility or need. This is a fundamentally disrespectful activity; the people they attempt to manipulate owe them no respect in return.
This is a pretty cynical view of marketing. Do you work somewhere with a marketing department? Is that what they do?
And we did, by implementing Bayesian spam filters, not be making spam illegal. It's a bit rich to think we can legislate a global Internet.
> Telemarketers are just doing their job. Door-to-door salesmen are just doing their job. Pickpockets and hit men are just doing their job.
These are differences of kind, not degree.
> That people have found a way to make a living from being an asshole does not mean I have to support them in any way.
Feel free to spend your money how you please, but do we really have to write it into the law?
Why is junk mail legal but spam is not? It's because Congress could understand the mechanics of junk mail, not because junk mail has any sort of moral or societal value lacking in spam.
> In the end, the purpose of most advertising and sales activity is to manipulate people into buying something regardless of the purchaser's utility or need. This is a fundamentally disrespectful activity; the people they attempt to manipulate owe them no respect in return.
This is a pretty cynical view of marketing. Do you work somewhere with a marketing department? Is that what they do?
> It's a bit rich to think we can legislate a global Internet.
Yeah, if something is hard we should just give up right away and save time.
> These are differences of kind, not degree.
All of them have in common that they make their living in ways that are mostly negative-sum interactions, ones that they make profitable. All of them are also partly or totally illegal in many jurisdictions because society recognizes that negative-sum issue.
> Why is junk mail legal but spam is not?
Junk mail has a much higher ratio of production/delivery cost to recipient cost. It's societally much less of a problem.
> This is a pretty cynical view of marketing.
I said "most sales and advertising" for a reason. There are other ways to market things. And it's not impossible to do advertising or sales usefully. It's just not the bulk of what goes on.
But if you'd like to check, see what gets salespeople paid. Is it when the value is delivered or when the sale is made? You could also see how much ad agencies do to test the value of products before they hype them. Or whether they go back and make sure that they aren't giving purchasers the wrong expectations.
Yeah, if something is hard we should just give up right away and save time.
> These are differences of kind, not degree.
All of them have in common that they make their living in ways that are mostly negative-sum interactions, ones that they make profitable. All of them are also partly or totally illegal in many jurisdictions because society recognizes that negative-sum issue.
> Why is junk mail legal but spam is not?
Junk mail has a much higher ratio of production/delivery cost to recipient cost. It's societally much less of a problem.
> This is a pretty cynical view of marketing.
I said "most sales and advertising" for a reason. There are other ways to market things. And it's not impossible to do advertising or sales usefully. It's just not the bulk of what goes on.
But if you'd like to check, see what gets salespeople paid. Is it when the value is delivered or when the sale is made? You could also see how much ad agencies do to test the value of products before they hype them. Or whether they go back and make sure that they aren't giving purchasers the wrong expectations.
> Yeah, if something is hard we should just give up right away and save time.
You misunderstood me, and it is true that I did not speak plainly. The Internet is a global resource which we cannot legislate because it isn't something we have authority over. A counterargument might go, "so is the radio spectrum, and we regulate that," and that is so, but I don't think you'd like an Internet where it's illegal to send someone an email if there country hasn't signed a treaty with your country (as it can be, simplistically, with ham radio).
> All of them have in common that they make their living in ways that are mostly negative-sum interactions, ones that they make profitable.
Pickpockets and hitmen are a drain on society in every conceivable way, but to say you're being unfair to telemarketers is a bit of an understatement. When they call trying to get me to fill up empty spaces on cruises so they don't feel like ghost ships, they are offering me something that (if you squint and pinch your nose) has value, and Carnival certainly sees value in what they're doing. Who is getting fleeced here?
Are they in a line of work that I wouldn't be comfortable with? Yes they are, but that doesn't make them the same as thieves and murderers. I can understand not being interested in entertaining moral relativism, but a nuisance is just not the same thing as a threat, and treating them as similar leads to poor decisions.
> Junk mail has a much higher ratio of production/delivery cost to recipient cost. It's societally much less of a problem.
Which of these is an existential threat, receiving unsolicited sales pitches, or running out of fossil fuels?
> I said "most sales and advertising" for a reason.
I said you were being very general, presumably I had a reason too.
> ...see what gets salespeople paid. Is it when the value is delivered or when the sale is made?
Don't salespeople deliver value to their employer when they make a sale? Isn't it their job to make sales and engineer's (or whatever specialty's) job to create whatever valuable thing will be delivered to the customer? Do you get paid for things you don't do?
> You could also see how much ad agencies do to test the value of products before they hype them.
Is it the ad agency's job to make sure my Anker cable won't overvolt my battery? Or is that the role of Anker and relevant regulators?
> Or whether they go back and make sure that they aren't giving purchasers the wrong expectations.
We can agree this is definitely their responsibility, and to forgo it would be dishonest.
You misunderstood me, and it is true that I did not speak plainly. The Internet is a global resource which we cannot legislate because it isn't something we have authority over. A counterargument might go, "so is the radio spectrum, and we regulate that," and that is so, but I don't think you'd like an Internet where it's illegal to send someone an email if there country hasn't signed a treaty with your country (as it can be, simplistically, with ham radio).
> All of them have in common that they make their living in ways that are mostly negative-sum interactions, ones that they make profitable.
Pickpockets and hitmen are a drain on society in every conceivable way, but to say you're being unfair to telemarketers is a bit of an understatement. When they call trying to get me to fill up empty spaces on cruises so they don't feel like ghost ships, they are offering me something that (if you squint and pinch your nose) has value, and Carnival certainly sees value in what they're doing. Who is getting fleeced here?
Are they in a line of work that I wouldn't be comfortable with? Yes they are, but that doesn't make them the same as thieves and murderers. I can understand not being interested in entertaining moral relativism, but a nuisance is just not the same thing as a threat, and treating them as similar leads to poor decisions.
> Junk mail has a much higher ratio of production/delivery cost to recipient cost. It's societally much less of a problem.
Which of these is an existential threat, receiving unsolicited sales pitches, or running out of fossil fuels?
> I said "most sales and advertising" for a reason.
I said you were being very general, presumably I had a reason too.
> ...see what gets salespeople paid. Is it when the value is delivered or when the sale is made?
Don't salespeople deliver value to their employer when they make a sale? Isn't it their job to make sales and engineer's (or whatever specialty's) job to create whatever valuable thing will be delivered to the customer? Do you get paid for things you don't do?
> You could also see how much ad agencies do to test the value of products before they hype them.
Is it the ad agency's job to make sure my Anker cable won't overvolt my battery? Or is that the role of Anker and relevant regulators?
> Or whether they go back and make sure that they aren't giving purchasers the wrong expectations.
We can agree this is definitely their responsibility, and to forgo it would be dishonest.
>sales cold calls, though... you know people are going to do it. It is their job.
Sales cold calls are illegal in my country and happen to me once every few years. My email address isn't so lucky.
>Sure, junk mail is annoying and most of it gets thrown out.
And more importantly: I can put a simple "no advertisements" sign on my real mailbox and cut down junk to almost zero. I wish I could do that to my virtual inbox.
Email junk is far worse than any real-live equivalent in my culture.
A better metaphor is having my business and private conversations while walking over a Middle-Eastern market where random people try to sell me stuff.
Sales cold calls are illegal in my country and happen to me once every few years. My email address isn't so lucky.
>Sure, junk mail is annoying and most of it gets thrown out.
And more importantly: I can put a simple "no advertisements" sign on my real mailbox and cut down junk to almost zero. I wish I could do that to my virtual inbox.
Email junk is far worse than any real-live equivalent in my culture.
A better metaphor is having my business and private conversations while walking over a Middle-Eastern market where random people try to sell me stuff.
> I can put a simple "no advertisements" sign on my real mailbox and cut down junk to almost zero.
Fun fact: this isn't possible in the US. I'd never considered how that might influence how Americans think about spam email in general.
Fun fact: this isn't possible in the US. I'd never considered how that might influence how Americans think about spam email in general.
It's a weird thing tbh when most of my mail is literally just advertisements for services around my area. Some of it is interesting but most don't apply to me (ex. Had several mailers for private schooling since there's a couple schools like that in the neighborhood) so I have to wonder how successful is junk mail like that in producing a profitable result. I have to imagine the cost would have to be very low to justify the constant stream of junk mail I receive.
They're people that know that they're wasting small amounts of time for large numbers of people and presumably gaining financially from some small number of those people. I delete the e-mails because it's the quick and convenient thing to do, but I don't have any problem with the idea of someone trying to waste their time. "It's their job" isn't a convincing argument; it sounds too much like the defense of "I was just following orders".
If someone feels entitled to someone else's time, I don't see any problem in turning the situation around. If there wasn't a good enough ROI on cold-call marketing, it would be rarer, and that sounds like a net benefit to me.
If someone feels entitled to someone else's time, I don't see any problem in turning the situation around. If there wasn't a good enough ROI on cold-call marketing, it would be rarer, and that sounds like a net benefit to me.
Agreed, "it's their job" is a poor excuse - that's only because someone chose to make it their job. We could instead have a resource where you can search for what you want and use that resource to request things, oh wait we have that, so we don't need cold callers in society. They seem only useful to the capitalist owners who employ them.
Gmail and other popular mail providers should implement something like this.
It would be a big step forward in spam fighting.
It would be a big step forward in spam fighting.
Hilarious idea.
But one of the first things I would have coded is preventing the same message to be sent again.
The examples are full of that.
But one of the first things I would have coded is preventing the same message to be sent again.
The examples are full of that.
Indeed..
In fact why not take the inbound spams, and save those... and sprinkle them in to the outbound replies?
In fact why not take the inbound spams, and save those... and sprinkle them in to the outbound replies?
Can anyone forward an email to that address? :)
Do you have localized versions? [I'm from Argentina and Most of my spam is in Spanish. I guess no. :( ]
Do you have localized versions? [I'm from Argentina and Most of my spam is in Spanish. I guess no. :( ]
There is kind of a interesting Turing test scenario for AI here. Design an AI to maximize number of replies (or total text written) by the spammer. The internet is vast and full of spammers, you'll never run out of real humans providing responses to optimize your system.
What happens if I send it a mail from an mlooper address? Can I get it to setup an infinite loop?
The one for phones has been on HN before. This one for spam is nice, but not yet smart enough. With more smarts and some understanding of the messages, it could keep spammers going forever. It doesn't need to be very intelligent; it just needs to get up to the Eliza level.
If it detects a spam related to search engine optimization, it should have a list of about a hundred plausible questions it can ask on that subject, for example. There aren't that many spammed subjects.
Most email spam, though, is promoting a link, and can't handle an email reply. You'd need something smart enough to go to a web site and sign up with fake credentials.
If it detects a spam related to search engine optimization, it should have a list of about a hundred plausible questions it can ask on that subject, for example. There aren't that many spammed subjects.
Most email spam, though, is promoting a link, and can't handle an email reply. You'd need something smart enough to go to a web site and sign up with fake credentials.
When especially irritated by spam of this type I like to look up the isp hosting their register link and then sign up on their site with its abuse@ details (or occasionally @localhost for a bit of variety). Every clog in the gears help or at least it's cathartic to imagine so.
Reminds me of the guy who set up an automated voice script on his landline to thwart telemarketers:
http://jollyrogertelephone.com/about/
http://jollyrogertelephone.com/about/
Brilliant! But... of course some of the spammers are bots themselves.
This is hilarious, I love it. I would also love to see this made into a public service with some clever ML algorithms to keep the conversation going as long as possible.
Based on the sample of 24 messages back and forth, it looks like the spammer also had a reply bot because a lot of messages exactly the same canned response.
The dude deserves a Nobel Peace Prize for this. Literally pacifying the interwebs! :D
I'm laughing out loud with these MLooper conversations. Made my day :D
PS: Nice project btw
PS: Nice project btw
I thought spamd passive aggressively insulting spammers and tarpitting their connections was a good effort at wasting their time. This is a big step up from that.
Two related funny stories if you have the time:
- The 7 legged spider story.
- The guy that tricked Nigerian spammers into acting the dead parrot sketch from Monty Python
- The 7 legged spider story.
- The guy that tricked Nigerian spammers into acting the dead parrot sketch from Monty Python
I looked up these links so I might as well paste them here:
Spider: http://27bslash6.com/overdue.html Monty: http://www.419eater.com/html/bigman.htm
Spider: http://27bslash6.com/overdue.html Monty: http://www.419eater.com/html/bigman.htm
Great idea! This has the potential of reducing worldwide spam/scam if is implemented by email service providers.
Please adapt this for technical recruiters!
Would be cool to have this in GMail.
Great tool
Please share this on github. we will be able to add our sugestions to the list of answers!
Please share this on github. we will be able to add our sugestions to the list of answers!
The author gave the link in the article https://github.com/beweinreich/mlooper.
Spam doesn't bother me anymore, but unsolicited phone calls do. The majority of phone calls that come in are not legitimate.
You should probably check Lenny out: https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/
That's great, is there an app that will do this, like put it down next to your landline phone and let it answer for you?
If you look at the reddit sidebar there's a phone number you can forward to or conference in
I saw a SIP number. If there's a POTS number to forward to doesn't the forwarder then pay for the call? With a local responder app there would be no call charge - I don't want this enough to pay for half-hour international call forwarding.
[deleted]
@ GOOGLE: BUILD THIS IN GMAIL! :)
brillant !
Made my day :)
To connect the conversation to David Brin, futurologist, philosopher, and author, this sounds an awful like the crystal spheres in Existence.
The phone version of this is Lenny[0], a set of audio files/Asterisk script which pretends to be a senile, doddering old man (who has a duck problem). There's a reddit user who runs a number you can forward your sales calls to, and he'll pick out the best ones and put on YouTube[1]. The record is keeping a caller on the phone for 56 minutes.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/
[1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLduL71_GKzHHk4hLga0nO... (edit: if you sort the user's videos by most popular, the top one is something quite amazing)