For software developers: how to find a job with relocation to Europe(relocateme.eu)
relocateme.eu
For software developers: how to find a job with relocation to Europe
http://relocateme.eu/blog/life-hacks-for-software-developers-how-to-find-a-job-with-relocation-to-europe/
228 comments
My now-wife essentially chased me to east Africa, after I got a one year research grant about two months into dating. The complications and many difficulties of figuring out day to day life in radically different circumstances was great for our relationship. The day to day stuff we deal with now is cake by comparison.
Throwing yourself into radically different circumstances, far outside of your comfort zone, is also a great way to learn about problems which aren't evident from the warm confines of career or academia. I highly recommend it.
On the other hand, Trump and his associated band of fascists requires active resistance. Running away is counter productive politically. I'm reading the New Jim Crow right now, which talks directly about how the most racist, regressive policies in the US have historically been passed after the collapse of progressive resistance. There's going to be a lot of work to be done in the next four years...
(Sorry for piling on, but wanted to add a pro travel argument beyond 'it worked for me!')
Throwing yourself into radically different circumstances, far outside of your comfort zone, is also a great way to learn about problems which aren't evident from the warm confines of career or academia. I highly recommend it.
On the other hand, Trump and his associated band of fascists requires active resistance. Running away is counter productive politically. I'm reading the New Jim Crow right now, which talks directly about how the most racist, regressive policies in the US have historically been passed after the collapse of progressive resistance. There's going to be a lot of work to be done in the next four years...
(Sorry for piling on, but wanted to add a pro travel argument beyond 'it worked for me!')
> Trump and his associated band of fascists
[citation needed]
Trump has already backtracked to more centrist positions (which was expected by those paying attention). And you can't ignore that the minority vote for Trump was higher than the previous Republican candidates.[1] Additionally, women played several key[2] roles in his campaign and an openly gay man got a standing ovation at the Republican Convention.
Anyways, you could say the very same thing about Hillary, but with actual evidence. Saudi Arabia, an undisputed theocratic regime that is not exactly known for treating minorities well (especially gays[3] & women[4]) and is funding ISIS[5], donated a large sum of money to the Clinton Foundation[6]. This is very out of line with democratic norms.
Oh, and the DNC shenanigans with Bernie Sanders and Hillary's cozy relationship with the mainstream media (i.e, getting debate questions in advance). And let's not forget the anti-democratic Democrat protesters. Then there's the folks calling out for Trumps assassination and disturbing racist diatribes towards whites on Twitter. Not exactly democratic...
So tell me again who's aligned with fascists?
[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellyanne_Conway
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arab...
[5] http://www.salon.com/2016/01/06/saudi_arabia_funds_and_expor...
[6] http://projects.nytimes.com/clinton-donors/
(Disclosure ~ I didn't vote for Trump. I'm not a crazy person.)
[citation needed]
Trump has already backtracked to more centrist positions (which was expected by those paying attention). And you can't ignore that the minority vote for Trump was higher than the previous Republican candidates.[1] Additionally, women played several key[2] roles in his campaign and an openly gay man got a standing ovation at the Republican Convention.
Anyways, you could say the very same thing about Hillary, but with actual evidence. Saudi Arabia, an undisputed theocratic regime that is not exactly known for treating minorities well (especially gays[3] & women[4]) and is funding ISIS[5], donated a large sum of money to the Clinton Foundation[6]. This is very out of line with democratic norms.
Oh, and the DNC shenanigans with Bernie Sanders and Hillary's cozy relationship with the mainstream media (i.e, getting debate questions in advance). And let's not forget the anti-democratic Democrat protesters. Then there's the folks calling out for Trumps assassination and disturbing racist diatribes towards whites on Twitter. Not exactly democratic...
So tell me again who's aligned with fascists?
[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellyanne_Conway
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arab...
[5] http://www.salon.com/2016/01/06/saudi_arabia_funds_and_expor...
[6] http://projects.nytimes.com/clinton-donors/
(Disclosure ~ I didn't vote for Trump. I'm not a crazy person.)
The foundation operates health and educationprograms for single parents and children. Complaining about that is just dumb.
Argeed. It probably had nothing to do with the $165 Billion Arms deal to Clinton Foundation donors:
https://theintercept.com/2016/02/22/saudi-christmas-present/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-...
https://theintercept.com/2016/02/22/saudi-christmas-present/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-...
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[deleted]
> Running away is counter productive politically
I agree with the gist of your post, but Sometimes the winning move is not to play. And if your safety is on the line, your life in jeopardy, or if proposed changes to government will soon put your life in jeopardy, "running away" is clearly the best move. Survival is far more important than achieving a political goal.
I'm of the mind that in 2016 we should be well beyond "regressing" to the 1800s as a society (but where I see "regress", some fascists see "progress" I guess....). If people have become disillusioned toward the fact that they will never change the hearts of fascists and bigots, I wouldn't blame them for leaving.
I agree with the gist of your post, but Sometimes the winning move is not to play. And if your safety is on the line, your life in jeopardy, or if proposed changes to government will soon put your life in jeopardy, "running away" is clearly the best move. Survival is far more important than achieving a political goal.
I'm of the mind that in 2016 we should be well beyond "regressing" to the 1800s as a society (but where I see "regress", some fascists see "progress" I guess....). If people have become disillusioned toward the fact that they will never change the hearts of fascists and bigots, I wouldn't blame them for leaving.
> I agree with the gist of your post, but Sometimes the winning move is not to play. And if your safety is on the line, your life in jeopardy, or if proposed changes to government will soon put your life in jeopardy, "running away" is clearly the best move.
Fortunately, that's completely irrelevant to current events in the United States.
Fortunately, that's completely irrelevant to current events in the United States.
Of course you should manage your expectations. But change can be really good for you, and why the hell would you NOT chase a girl if you think she's worth chasing? Because OH NO, it might not work out?
Way to live your life!
Way to live your life!
"why the hell would you NOT chase a girl if you think she's worth chasing?"
Hmm... Restraining order I guess?
Hmm... Restraining order I guess?
This made my day, lol.
Because there are girls (or guys) everywhere/ closer to you who are amazing who you would love and get along wonderfully with?
People can have their adventure or be an expat, and that's fine, but it's often more about the adventure or being an expat than about the girl. Or they can get excited about the French/ Japanese girl but is it more about the person or the Frenchness/ Japaneseness?
People can have their adventure or be an expat, and that's fine, but it's often more about the adventure or being an expat than about the girl. Or they can get excited about the French/ Japanese girl but is it more about the person or the Frenchness/ Japaneseness?
This is the blessing of youth being unburdened by wisdom. If you overthink things this much not only will it be almost impossible to have any adventures but it can also lead to hand-wringing depression (speaking from experience here).
"But it is more often about the adventure..."
Or, you know, the opposite. I didn't actually care if I moved or he did. The reality was that it made more sense for both of us if I moved, just like it made more sense for us to get married in the states. We knew each other about 5 years before I moved, generally talking daily.
Naturally, if you aren't a little adventurous, you'd not consider that a viable relationship in the first place, so sure, it has a little bit of it because it must for the relationship to work.
Or, you know, the opposite. I didn't actually care if I moved or he did. The reality was that it made more sense for both of us if I moved, just like it made more sense for us to get married in the states. We knew each other about 5 years before I moved, generally talking daily.
Naturally, if you aren't a little adventurous, you'd not consider that a viable relationship in the first place, so sure, it has a little bit of it because it must for the relationship to work.
I chased a girl to Europe, by far the best decision I ever made.
Same, chased a girl to the Netherlands from the UK. Been here 6 years, getting married next year, 4 kids and the best job I've ever had. Not sure if my life could be much better. :)
I wound up in Europe for love. And same here - it is the best decision I've made. Been here for a little over 3 years now and have no regrets.
I chased a girl to Canada and it was the worst decision I ever made.
YMMV.
YMMV.
Chasing the girl, or chasing her to Canada? ;)
I chased a girl to France, the worst decision I ever made.
Some time after, I chased a girl to Japan, the best decision I ever made.
Some time after, I chased a girl to Japan, the best decision I ever made.
Using "chase" for the girl/partner part seems dicey. Agreeing to move to another country with your partner of multiple years is just fine. Finding out third-hand that somebody you kinda like but have never really spent time with is moving to another country and trying to follow them is unlikely to turn out well. "Chase" could mean either.
The article should start with the prerequisites, things like an university degree and some work experience will make your job hunt easier and in many cases it will be impossible to get an European job with relocation without these two things.
I, for example, have been trying to get a job in many of the startups in Amsterdam and Berlin for the past 3 months and it has been impossible due to my lack of formal education, or better, due to the lack of university degree. And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US), so even if I had finished university I wouldn't be able to compete with the education of engineers that are already living in Europe. More than once my profile has been rejected by European companies because they can find someone as good (or more) than me without the need to initiate an immigration process.
Nonetheless, I will try every single website linked in this article because I hope than maybe one of these days I will get hired for work experience and skills than for my education. I haven't found a job in Europe for lack of trying.
I, for example, have been trying to get a job in many of the startups in Amsterdam and Berlin for the past 3 months and it has been impossible due to my lack of formal education, or better, due to the lack of university degree. And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US), so even if I had finished university I wouldn't be able to compete with the education of engineers that are already living in Europe. More than once my profile has been rejected by European companies because they can find someone as good (or more) than me without the need to initiate an immigration process.
Nonetheless, I will try every single website linked in this article because I hope than maybe one of these days I will get hired for work experience and skills than for my education. I haven't found a job in Europe for lack of trying.
One more option for you (if you speak English fluently): we have an awesome team based in Portugal called Meta. Our two founders—Joana Rafael and Vasco Portugal—are two of the nicest people you will ever meet in additional to being great leaders. We collobrate with partners to launch IoT/M2M products. If the partner is a startup, we support all aspects of the product developement and launch until typically its series B round including ideation & product/market fit, MVP to production hardware & software development, fund raising support, marketing/growth hacking, and international expansion from Europe to the US/Americas. We also spinout our own products based on staff and investor interest like Sensei, a video analytics platform for retail spaces <https://sensei.tech/>. These spinouts are are owned by the team working on them, which we feel is the right thing to do. Where you would probably work is our main R&D innovation office in Lisbon, but we also have a hardware manufacturing and software support team in other locations. Also with Meta's salaries, you will live a nice life in Portugal in addition to a healthy work/life balance. If you never have been to Portugal, its people are nice and happy to speak English with you, and its food and weather are quite remarkable too. It is truly a good life. Check us out, and if you would like to discover more, email me: Randy Carlton <[email protected]> and we can Skype/Hangout.
https://www.meta-icg.com
https://www.meta-icg.com
I've received offers from companies in Denmark, Ireland and Netherlands. They did not care about the lack of a formal degree and they would sponsor a work VISA. I think the hardest part about finding a job in Europe is finding one that won't low ball you.
If you don't mind, what do you do?
It seems like a lot of the jobs I see are for such specific roles they have to reach worldwide to find someone with that knowledge.
The kind of stuff I only read about in headlines here but that I will never get close to at work or in a personal project.
I am just curious if it's rather hopeless if you aren't "THE BEST"[0].
[0]rockstar, ninja, other buzzwords.
It seems like a lot of the jobs I see are for such specific roles they have to reach worldwide to find someone with that knowledge.
The kind of stuff I only read about in headlines here but that I will never get close to at work or in a personal project.
I am just curious if it's rather hopeless if you aren't "THE BEST"[0].
[0]rockstar, ninja, other buzzwords.
I got offers too. See example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847351 . I mostly do backend, but like that there are also for frontend.
Nah man, I mean, sure it depends what you do, but for example I'm just an iOS developer, I got a job here in Barcelona after a month of searching and more offers after that. They are all just normal companies who need employees.
Edit: It's true that I was already here in Barcelona, not applying from the States.
Edit: It's true that I was already here in Barcelona, not applying from the States.
I am curious if you are based in the US? I have heard more than a few times about EU companies paying significantly less that the US for the same positions.
Were any of them willing to negotiate?
Were any of them willing to negotiate?
You have to take into consideration that living in a European country is a lot different -- you're not going to get the same salary you would in San Francisco, for example. The quality of life is different, expenses are different, probably you don't need a car, apartments are cheaper, etc etc. Each country is unique. In Spain I don't have a really high salary (though it's above the average salary in Spain), but, compared to what? I live comfortably, all my personal needs are met -- so who cares?
The margins are much smaller than in the US.
Can you quantify "much smaller?" 30%? 50%?
Also do you have any insights into why this is?
Also do you have any insights into why this is?
I've worked in NL for three years, I had zero problems with lack of formal degree. It isn't even required here in NL for a 'highly skilled migrant' visa.
More information: https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx
Highly skilled migrant visas do require you to work within a company who participates in this scheme, which limits your prospects.
More information: https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx
Highly skilled migrant visas do require you to work within a company who participates in this scheme, which limits your prospects.
What about language? I know there is a high-level of English spoken but is the expectation that you learn the language quickly?
I have only worked for a single company, and it's a very international. Everyone speaks English. There is close to zero written or spoken Dutch.
This is in Amsterdam though, where a lot of people both within my company and outside speak English. If you go else where in the country, outside of North Holland, people defiantly speak less English and it's more advantageous to know Dutch.
I personally learned Dutch because I didn't feel like I could really assimilate without it.
This is in Amsterdam though, where a lot of people both within my company and outside speak English. If you go else where in the country, outside of North Holland, people defiantly speak less English and it's more advantageous to know Dutch.
I personally learned Dutch because I didn't feel like I could really assimilate without it.
Most companies don't care that you don't know the language (and aren't planning to). But you will need to learn it to fully integrate in the country (though many haven't and do fine).
I've lived and worked in the NL for 6 years. It depends on the company. Most companies I've worked for have not minded at all that I wasn't fluent. Some companies will be happy to offer to pay for language courses.
I think you'll find that most tech companies in the west of the country won't mind at all, but in other parts of the Netherlands it can vary.
I think you'll find that most tech companies in the west of the country won't mind at all, but in other parts of the Netherlands it can vary.
Formal education (university degree) is required to get a work visa pretty much everywhere. I think this is why you get rejected all the time.
Technically, it isn't required for the Netherlands. Germany requires a degree for work visa, but makes an exception for tech industry, so it's not required there either, if you go by the rules.
However, a friend got his visa for Germany turned down because he didn't have a degree.
However, a friend got his visa for Germany turned down because he didn't have a degree.
Yep -- Germany LOVES the degree (the fact that they love certifications and titles is so true). I have a colleague without a degree working as a software developer, but for me they required a photo copy of my diploma for whatever reason.
> but for me they required a photo copy of my diploma for whatever reason.
If you went to Austria instead (of Germany), you probbably would have needed a notarially certified copy of your diiploma (there is a true story behind this sarcastic remark). ;-)
If you went to Austria instead (of Germany), you probbably would have needed a notarially certified copy of your diiploma (there is a true story behind this sarcastic remark). ;-)
Just wow. I don't know what they hope to gain from these pieces of paper, but alright :D
[deleted]
Hey guessmyname, I'm surprised to hear that. As an expat working/living in Berlin for the last 5 years or so that hasn't been my experience.
Also, my current company has been hiring for a while now, and we may be an outlier, but we get lots of applications from people outside the EU and always take them seriously. We've helped several people go through the visa process already.
Your email is not in your profile, but my company is hiring :) feel free to hit me up at david.carter [at] uberall [dot] com
Also, my current company has been hiring for a while now, and we may be an outlier, but we get lots of applications from people outside the EU and always take them seriously. We've helped several people go through the visa process already.
Your email is not in your profile, but my company is hiring :) feel free to hit me up at david.carter [at] uberall [dot] com
Many countries/companies will consider a 5 year Bachelors as good as a 3 years Bachelrs plus a Masters if the university has a good program. Translating titles is complex, and if your country does something unusual, explaining it goes a long way.
Of course that does not help that you need a five year investment to get any official qualification.
Of course that does not help that you need a five year investment to get any official qualification.
Similar but I've been sending out applications for many more months[0].
I think I can recall 2 times where they told me I was ineligible (because they didn't specify they were only willing to accept EU citizens) and once where I got a declined email.
It probably doesn't help that 'degree'[1] isn't worth much but with 5+ years experience I feel like I am competent. Maybe just not enough or in the right tech.
It's rather disheartening, especially when you read on here about people getting so many offers daily. I know it's like a FB feed though and not everyone's reality.
Sorry for the rant.
[0]In the UK though so maybe they are even stricter than other countries. [1]ITT, it was enough to get me in the door locally though. I can't go back and tell younger me not to be so stupid.
I think I can recall 2 times where they told me I was ineligible (because they didn't specify they were only willing to accept EU citizens) and once where I got a declined email.
It probably doesn't help that 'degree'[1] isn't worth much but with 5+ years experience I feel like I am competent. Maybe just not enough or in the right tech.
It's rather disheartening, especially when you read on here about people getting so many offers daily. I know it's like a FB feed though and not everyone's reality.
Sorry for the rant.
[0]In the UK though so maybe they are even stricter than other countries. [1]ITT, it was enough to get me in the door locally though. I can't go back and tell younger me not to be so stupid.
Hey, we're a company in Amsterdam looking for developers (among other roles). We don't necessarily require a formal education -- it will kind of depend on role too of course. Drop me an email if you want to chat: [email protected]
> it will kind of depend on role too of course
Why of course? This seems very unintuitive, actually. Has your data collection revealed something interesting about formal education and its affects on certain roles that are not found in others?
Why of course? This seems very unintuitive, actually. Has your data collection revealed something interesting about formal education and its affects on certain roles that are not found in others?
In my country I cannot be titled "programmer" (or anything like that) without a pertinent degree. I had problems getting credit from banks because I was showing them a $3000 monthly salary as an "unqualified worker" :)
Law is weird.
Law is weird.
If you want to be their attorney, you might be required to have a legal degree?
Good point. I hadn't considered the supply management aspect.
Not to pick on you specifically, but "Europe" is a pretty big place. The countries are all quite different from one another with different requirements and attitudes, etc. Your best bet, in my opinion, as someone from the States who lives and works in Spain and has no formal CS education -- save up, research the country you like, go there on a Schengen visa, find jobs and interview in person and stay there. You got 90 days on a Schengen visa. If you have experience in your field, you can find a job. That's how you get it done.
> go there on a Schengen visa, find jobs and interview in person and stay there
Do you know from personal experience that that works? My understanding is that you would not be allowed to work on a Schengen tourist visa. Wouldn't the process be more like "go there, find jobs, interview, apply for a work visa, wait for months to have it issued, find the job gone"?
Do you know from personal experience that that works? My understanding is that you would not be allowed to work on a Schengen tourist visa. Wouldn't the process be more like "go there, find jobs, interview, apply for a work visa, wait for months to have it issued, find the job gone"?
No, you're almost always allowed to work while waiting for the visa to be approved (which it will be if everything is in order from the start). In other words, once you have a job offer you can apply for a work visa, and once the application process has begun you can start working. It's also pretty easy to set yourself up as a freelancer in many European countries but you have to do more things on your own (taxes, etc).
"It's also pretty easy to set yourself up as a freelancer in many European countries"
Which ones? I've only heard of this for Germany.
Which ones? I've only heard of this for Germany.
I can confirm Czech Republic and Spain as both being pretty straightforward and simple, only because I've lived both places and known people who have gone through the processes. I'd be surprised if it wasn't doable and relatively easy in the majority of EU countries. You'll just have to google the country you're interested in along with "business license" or something similar.
Getting a work visa or immigrating into the United States is so difficult that I think it's hard for Americans to imagine, but it's actually pretty easy to work legally in the EU if you're able to get a decent job (and by that I mean that McDonald's isn't going to be hiring foreign employees and sponsoring visas) or obtain a business license (usually some fee for the application, proof you can perform the job you say you're going to do, and the onus of administrative duties related to taxes, healthcare, etc).
Plus, you can get creative. I was issued a 5 year "EU family member visa" just for having a Czech girlfriend. This gave me all the rights of movement and work that EU citizens enjoy.
Getting a work visa or immigrating into the United States is so difficult that I think it's hard for Americans to imagine, but it's actually pretty easy to work legally in the EU if you're able to get a decent job (and by that I mean that McDonald's isn't going to be hiring foreign employees and sponsoring visas) or obtain a business license (usually some fee for the application, proof you can perform the job you say you're going to do, and the onus of administrative duties related to taxes, healthcare, etc).
Plus, you can get creative. I was issued a 5 year "EU family member visa" just for having a Czech girlfriend. This gave me all the rights of movement and work that EU citizens enjoy.
Interesting , thanks.
The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. So if ability is there with a candidate, education is irrelevant. Candidate supply and demand has companies removing barriers, not adding them. (At least in the big-city markets I have experience with.)
What does the emphasis on education abroad mean? That the supply and demand for developers is inverted relative to the US? Or that they're behind the times and haven't figured out what we've figured out here?
What does the emphasis on education abroad mean? That the supply and demand for developers is inverted relative to the US? Or that they're behind the times and haven't figured out what we've figured out here?
> The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa.
To perhaps resolve this contradiction: In Germany you typically are not considered as "talent" if you are self-learnt, only if you have a formal degree (also for blue-collar jobs you do apprenticeship for 2 to 3 years). The mentality really is "if the person is not even able to get a degree/do an apprenticeship" how can he/she an able person. The only exception of this rule if you are self-employed - then it's your problem to find customers. If you are successful as a self-employed person or founder (even though you have no formal degree), you will still be accepted.
One reason (beside tradition) might be that in Germany there are strong dismissal protection laws. This means that after a probation period of typically a half year it becomes complicated to fire you. Thus as an employer you really want to go the safe way: It is not sufficient that you are currently good, but also that you are able to learn new things on your own. A university degree is a strong sign that you are able to learn new, complicated things on your own in the future: It is my impression that to get a degree at a typical German university in some STEM subject you are a lot more on your own in terms of learning etc. than at a typical US university.
To perhaps resolve this contradiction: In Germany you typically are not considered as "talent" if you are self-learnt, only if you have a formal degree (also for blue-collar jobs you do apprenticeship for 2 to 3 years). The mentality really is "if the person is not even able to get a degree/do an apprenticeship" how can he/she an able person. The only exception of this rule if you are self-employed - then it's your problem to find customers. If you are successful as a self-employed person or founder (even though you have no formal degree), you will still be accepted.
One reason (beside tradition) might be that in Germany there are strong dismissal protection laws. This means that after a probation period of typically a half year it becomes complicated to fire you. Thus as an employer you really want to go the safe way: It is not sufficient that you are currently good, but also that you are able to learn new things on your own. A university degree is a strong sign that you are able to learn new, complicated things on your own in the future: It is my impression that to get a degree at a typical German university in some STEM subject you are a lot more on your own in terms of learning etc. than at a typical US university.
Its a very different culture. College is affordable for most people - in the US it means you're willing to go into a lot of debt or have either well off or poor parents. There's a huge pool of extremely competent people in the US without a degree due to familial reasons.
From what I have read in the internet the much larger difference is that in Germany there are lots of other ways than going to college/university: As the example with apprenticeship or going to a Fachhochschule (a little bit similar to university, but much more school-like in sense of strict organization and mostly focused on "applied subject"; "Fachhochschule" is often translated with "school of applied science", but I prefer the traditional translation "engineering school", though Fachhochschulen don't offer just degrees in engineering). Fachhochschulen were originally conceived by industry because they complained that at that time they considered the education that universities offered as too theoretical.
Also apprenticeships of course finish with a certificate (which is often well-regarded for apprenticeships that are more intellectually challenging) and Fachhochschulen also finish with a degree (though the Fachhochschul degree is considered as "a level below" than a university degree).
TLDR: Just because university is affordable in Germany does not imply that most people want to go there. There are lots of other options such as apprenticeships or Fachhochschulen (and some more exotic options that I won't go into) which can be a much better choice. If people in the US complain about the high cost of university/college education: Why don't they simply conceive such alternatives, too?
Also apprenticeships of course finish with a certificate (which is often well-regarded for apprenticeships that are more intellectually challenging) and Fachhochschulen also finish with a degree (though the Fachhochschul degree is considered as "a level below" than a university degree).
TLDR: Just because university is affordable in Germany does not imply that most people want to go there. There are lots of other options such as apprenticeships or Fachhochschulen (and some more exotic options that I won't go into) which can be a much better choice. If people in the US complain about the high cost of university/college education: Why don't they simply conceive such alternatives, too?
Because there's no national structure for it - it would all need to be achieved on the state level given both politics and the different needs of different states. We have community colleges here but I don't believe there are almost any public certification institutions. Also because in almost the entire country there are no protections/contracts for workers being fired at any point for any reason, and also workers can leave at any point for any reason, companies have very little incentive to spend any money to train people. It'd be perfect for society to step in and provide these sorts of institutions but in our current political climate ANY outgrowth of government except to military is seen with extreme skepticism.
Education is very relevant if you are applying for an American work visa.
Does it depend on the visa? The TN requirements seem to be not a whole lot more than being from an eligible location and having a business in the US that is eligible and wanting to hire you.
It does depend in the visa, but TN visas require you to be a qualified professional in a specific career and in most categories that means you need qualifications like an RN or CPA. Even for a programmer a degree will make it easier to get the visa.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
From what I've seen related to France at least, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on formal education. Luckily I have a master's degree but I imagine that getting a job without at least a college degree is quite a bit harder and paid a bit less, unless you're lucky.
Perspective should be king here: do you consider how many unknown quantities (not saying this in disregard) apply every day from everywhere for every single post or even cold call employers in the Western countries? Hundreds per day. It is impossible, unconvenient and a waste of time/money to assess every single case on their merit: a reply generally opens a barrage of further replies and unwanted, unneeded communication flow. So what? Spamming is not the way. Hack your way in a different manner.
> And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US)
It used to be like this in many places in Europe pre-bologna (circa 2000?)
It used to be like this in many places in Europe pre-bologna (circa 2000?)
Last time I interviewed in Dublin (summer of 2015), I did about 15 phone interviews and about 8 in-person; I was only asked once about a degree and the guy said "I don't have one either".
I do have over 25 years of experience though, so that might be more important than credentials.
I do have over 25 years of experience though, so that might be more important than credentials.
Agreed, it focuses on job boards/recruiters to use, but not the checklist that includes visas, passports, residency options and funds required.
Not for lack of trying.
Having just been through the process myself, here's my advice.
1) If you are moving from the US, you want to move to Europe not for better jobs, but for better quality of life overall. Europeans work less hours, have more vacation, and many more places to go to with a $50 plane ticket. Unless you live in NYC, your future European capital will likely be more diverse when it comes to culture and food.
2) Start by picking the city where you want to live. Scout it, see what is around, see what the people are like. Look for a job after you find that place.
3) Meeting people face to face will make your job search much easier. If you can AirBnB your US apartment, that might even be enough to pay for a trip to cheaper cities like Berlin or Barcelona.
4) Yes, you'll need a work visa, and while each country is a little different when it comes to those, generally being sponsored by a company is all you need.
5) In most cases, don't worry about the native language. I have found jobs, and know people that have done the same, in Zurich, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Barcelona, knowing only English. Once you settle, you might want to learn the local language for social reasons, of course, but there are plenty of English-only jobs.
1) If you are moving from the US, you want to move to Europe not for better jobs, but for better quality of life overall. Europeans work less hours, have more vacation, and many more places to go to with a $50 plane ticket. Unless you live in NYC, your future European capital will likely be more diverse when it comes to culture and food.
2) Start by picking the city where you want to live. Scout it, see what is around, see what the people are like. Look for a job after you find that place.
3) Meeting people face to face will make your job search much easier. If you can AirBnB your US apartment, that might even be enough to pay for a trip to cheaper cities like Berlin or Barcelona.
4) Yes, you'll need a work visa, and while each country is a little different when it comes to those, generally being sponsored by a company is all you need.
5) In most cases, don't worry about the native language. I have found jobs, and know people that have done the same, in Zurich, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Barcelona, knowing only English. Once you settle, you might want to learn the local language for social reasons, of course, but there are plenty of English-only jobs.
> In most cases, don't worry about the native language. [...] Paris [...]
I know a bunch of fellow expats in Paris. The ones that came here with the intention of learning/improving French are usually happy. The ones that came expecting to get by with only English are absolutely miserable and hate it here. The French (rightly) regard you as an arrogant prick if you don't show that you are willing to make the effort, and they treat you accordingly.
Yes, the other places you mentioned are probably easier in this regard.
I know a bunch of fellow expats in Paris. The ones that came here with the intention of learning/improving French are usually happy. The ones that came expecting to get by with only English are absolutely miserable and hate it here. The French (rightly) regard you as an arrogant prick if you don't show that you are willing to make the effort, and they treat you accordingly.
Yes, the other places you mentioned are probably easier in this regard.
This is what I always heard about visiting Paris and it honestly put me off visiting for a long time. But what I found when I actually went to Paris was the exact opposite. Everyone I interacted with loved the opportunity to practice their English and everyone was incredibly nice and accommodating. Now it's probably very different when you are visiting as a tourist compared to living there as an expat.
> Now it's probably very different when you are visiting as a tourist compared to living there as an expat.
It is - rightfully so. Expectations towards a tourist are very different and the matters a tourist needs to settle are much simpler than the matters a resident needs to settle. Interactions with the local administration, your landlord, ... A lot of that will be very hard if you're not speaking the language. Getting a grasp for the local culture is easier if you speak the language. Also, if you're still stuck with not speaking a single word of your host countries language, a lot of people will consider that impolite. Nobody expects perfection, but at least show a little effort :)
It is - rightfully so. Expectations towards a tourist are very different and the matters a tourist needs to settle are much simpler than the matters a resident needs to settle. Interactions with the local administration, your landlord, ... A lot of that will be very hard if you're not speaking the language. Getting a grasp for the local culture is easier if you speak the language. Also, if you're still stuck with not speaking a single word of your host countries language, a lot of people will consider that impolite. Nobody expects perfection, but at least show a little effort :)
I've been to Paris recently for a 3 days tech event. I would say that in my experience it is the French people that are often arrogant in that they get pissed / make fun of people who can't speak their language. A friend of mine that was with me and can speak French to a decent level had troubles even ordering stuff in a bar because the girls working there didn't make the effort to understand beyond his foreign accent... and he is half Belgian.
Of course my experience is limited and of course you would expect someone living in France for a long time to learn the language, but it's also a matter of good manners. I, too, would hate to live there if my experience is the norm.
EDIT: It seems that other people had the opposite experience so take anything with a grain of salt.
Of course my experience is limited and of course you would expect someone living in France for a long time to learn the language, but it's also a matter of good manners. I, too, would hate to live there if my experience is the norm.
EDIT: It seems that other people had the opposite experience so take anything with a grain of salt.
Even as a tourist knowing only English, the best ways to ingratiate yourself with everyone is to at least start with a French greeting—especially when walking into shops, cafes, etc. Americans are far too accustomed to employees greeting them. If you walk into a place, some quick, intentional eye contact and a friendly sounding "Bonjour!" go a long way. French shop owners/workers in Paris don't make a point of saying, "Welcome to my shop, may I take your order?"
I speak French, but whenever I would get lost in a conversation, I'd simply apologize, explain I'm American, and am having trouble understanding or following (all in French, of course; its worth learning how to say it), then ask if they spoke English or if they could slow down. At that point, they'd express being delighted to speak in English, and I'd keep trying to speak in French. Made for some very fun times with all the people I met.
It's also worth learning how to say a few key phrases in the correct rhythm and tone. French isn't spoken with an English-like cadence.
I speak French, but whenever I would get lost in a conversation, I'd simply apologize, explain I'm American, and am having trouble understanding or following (all in French, of course; its worth learning how to say it), then ask if they spoke English or if they could slow down. At that point, they'd express being delighted to speak in English, and I'd keep trying to speak in French. Made for some very fun times with all the people I met.
It's also worth learning how to say a few key phrases in the correct rhythm and tone. French isn't spoken with an English-like cadence.
I had that same experience when I lived in the UK many years ago and I was still not completely fluent in English.
On the other hand, when I lived in France, everybody loved the fact that I was making the effort to try to speak French.
YMMV
On the other hand, when I lived in France, everybody loved the fact that I was making the effort to try to speak French.
YMMV
If it makes you feel better, I had a similar experience to you.
There are some English-Only jobs of course, but the competition for it is higher. If you know the local language, you have a lot of offerings to choose from (at least it is like this in Germany outside Berlin and banking-Frankfurt). Not knowing German reduces your chance to find a new job in case you need it.
With my team in Lisbon, we have multiple people who do not speak the native language, Portuguese. Since I do not look like I am Portuguese, everyone defaults to speaking English with me in public and are happy to. The quality in life in Portugal is very good especially with a developer's salary.
> The quality in life in Portugal is very good especially with a developer's salary.
What's the ballpark value?
From what I understand wages are very low there.
What's the ballpark value?
From what I understand wages are very low there.
Developers will rarely make more than 1500-2000€ per month, but this is, unfortunately, considered a lot of money there.
So while in San Francisco one expects to make 100-120K, expect to make 20-24K in Portugal.
The good news is that you can live comfortably with 2000€ per month, as food and housing are very cheap.
(I'm a Portuguese guy working in SF)
So while in San Francisco one expects to make 100-120K, expect to make 20-24K in Portugal.
The good news is that you can live comfortably with 2000€ per month, as food and housing are very cheap.
(I'm a Portuguese guy working in SF)
Thank you for the data point.
For people interested in this topic, I've written a fair amount on the more nitty gritty aspects, as an American who relocated to Berlin, Germany.
http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job...
http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/
http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/
If anyone is interested in this and needs a push in the right direction, I'd hope these links help you out!
Also, if you're a Javascript developer who wants to live in Berlin, I'm trying to hire someone excellent. If that's you, please apply: https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611
Ok, enough self promotion. If anyone has questions about relocating to Germany or Berlin, HMU :)
http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job...
http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/
http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/
If anyone is interested in this and needs a push in the right direction, I'd hope these links help you out!
Also, if you're a Javascript developer who wants to live in Berlin, I'm trying to hire someone excellent. If that's you, please apply: https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611
Ok, enough self promotion. If anyone has questions about relocating to Germany or Berlin, HMU :)
Well done on the guide. I'm used to being the crotchety Berlin emigration pedant on HN, and this actually gets almost everything right.
The process you described is still probably the most common (and the one that I took around 15 years ago). Worth adding, however, is the new-ish Blue Card system, which allows folks with relevant education to get a visa for 6 months to look for a job, in theory, simplifies the visa application process a bit, and gives you a faster track to permanent residence. My wife is a more recent immigrant (from Eastern Europe) and was able to get permanent residence much faster than I did because she went the Blue Card route.
The process you described is still probably the most common (and the one that I took around 15 years ago). Worth adding, however, is the new-ish Blue Card system, which allows folks with relevant education to get a visa for 6 months to look for a job, in theory, simplifies the visa application process a bit, and gives you a faster track to permanent residence. My wife is a more recent immigrant (from Eastern Europe) and was able to get permanent residence much faster than I did because she went the Blue Card route.
Not to be too prying, but you don't happen to have children do you? I do, very young, single digits, and would love to immigrate out of the US but healthcare, daycare, and schools for my children are priorities. Any thoughts on those there? I'd rather find out from the horse's mouth...
I do, but having spent virtually all of my adult life in Germany (36 now, moved here at 21), my sense of what's normal is the way that things are here. My son was born here and is a German citizen (which isn't automatic just by being born in Germany). He's 16 months old now.
Healthcare and daycare aren't particularly difficult issues. The healthcare systems in developed countries are almost universally good. Health insurance is based on your income, rather than any pre-existing conditions or your job, and is universal. Day care is heavily subsidized. We pay €400/month because we're in the highest income bracket, but even that is being phased out next year (and up to now was only applied to kids from 1 to 3). Finding a day care spot can be annoying, but it's more of a chore than an impossibility. At our son's (public) day care, 55% of the kids have at least one non-German parent.
We're not far enough for me to have anything more than a theoretical view on schools. Private schools are very rare here. Public schools are probably better than median US public schools. They're naturally in German, with the exception of (in Berlin) the JFK and Nelson Mandela schools, which are bi-lingual English and German. JFK specifically reserves spots for American kids. If the kids are young enough though, they'd probably pick up the language in an amazingly short span of time. (We don't have any special plans to send our kid to one of the bi-lingual schools. I'm fluent in German and my wife speaks it reasonably well, and we're both permanent residents here.)
Healthcare and daycare aren't particularly difficult issues. The healthcare systems in developed countries are almost universally good. Health insurance is based on your income, rather than any pre-existing conditions or your job, and is universal. Day care is heavily subsidized. We pay €400/month because we're in the highest income bracket, but even that is being phased out next year (and up to now was only applied to kids from 1 to 3). Finding a day care spot can be annoying, but it's more of a chore than an impossibility. At our son's (public) day care, 55% of the kids have at least one non-German parent.
We're not far enough for me to have anything more than a theoretical view on schools. Private schools are very rare here. Public schools are probably better than median US public schools. They're naturally in German, with the exception of (in Berlin) the JFK and Nelson Mandela schools, which are bi-lingual English and German. JFK specifically reserves spots for American kids. If the kids are young enough though, they'd probably pick up the language in an amazingly short span of time. (We don't have any special plans to send our kid to one of the bi-lingual schools. I'm fluent in German and my wife speaks it reasonably well, and we're both permanent residents here.)
Thanks wheels! If you have any corrections for the guide, I'd love to get them -- I wrote it about 2 years after the process so it's possible I missed something for sure.
I have seen the Blue Card website, but never knew how it works! I just did what the university told me to do -- and knowing german bureaucracy, it's no wonder they led me towards "the traditional route". In any case, the blue card sounds like a really cool scheme, the process as it stands is so complicated and involves so much freaking MAIL!
I have seen the Blue Card website, but never knew how it works! I just did what the university told me to do -- and knowing german bureaucracy, it's no wonder they led me towards "the traditional route". In any case, the blue card sounds like a really cool scheme, the process as it stands is so complicated and involves so much freaking MAIL!
The Blue Card doesn't require more paperwork via mail. My wife switched to it from an academic visa (postdoc) directly at the Ausländerbehörde. It does have two very useful features though:
- It allows you to switch jobs without an additional trip to the foreigner's office (Ausländerbehörde), assuming it was granted for long enough in the first place.
- It allows you to get permanent residence after 33 months of employment, rather than 60, and forgoes the German language requirement of such.
The visa for searching for work is particularly useful for folks that aren't from visa-waiver countries. Most people that aren't from the EU or North America require a visa to visit Germany, and the permit to look for work is a relatively straightforward one to get for those with a relevant degree.
- It allows you to switch jobs without an additional trip to the foreigner's office (Ausländerbehörde), assuming it was granted for long enough in the first place.
- It allows you to get permanent residence after 33 months of employment, rather than 60, and forgoes the German language requirement of such.
The visa for searching for work is particularly useful for folks that aren't from visa-waiver countries. Most people that aren't from the EU or North America require a visa to visit Germany, and the permit to look for work is a relatively straightforward one to get for those with a relevant degree.
Also, if you can prove German language skills at B1 level, you can apply for permanent residence at 21 months instead of 33 months with the Blue Card.
>HMU :)
Took me a few seconds to realize that it meant Hit Me Up :)
HN and other sites should have some sort of Internet text expander plugins or something ... startup opportunity? ha ha. There was a startup with a very loosely related (to my idea) product called Apture some years ago (used it on my blog for a while), then it got acquired, maybe by the Washington Post and shutdown for public use.
Edit:
Sorry, had the facts wrong - according to Wikipedia, anyway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apture
Apture was used by the Washington Post (among others) and later acquired by Google.
Took me a few seconds to realize that it meant Hit Me Up :)
HN and other sites should have some sort of Internet text expander plugins or something ... startup opportunity? ha ha. There was a startup with a very loosely related (to my idea) product called Apture some years ago (used it on my blog for a while), then it got acquired, maybe by the Washington Post and shutdown for public use.
Edit:
Sorry, had the facts wrong - according to Wikipedia, anyway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apture
Apture was used by the Washington Post (among others) and later acquired by Google.
Re: your job posting
> We're currently investigating React as an alternative to Angular
I've done little more than a couple of test projects in Angular, but we have 2 production applications using React right now and imo React was far less difficult to get the hang of and has actually been a blast to work with.
> We're currently investigating React as an alternative to Angular
I've done little more than a couple of test projects in Angular, but we have 2 production applications using React right now and imo React was far less difficult to get the hang of and has actually been a blast to work with.
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm utterly enamored with the idea of stateless functional components or whatever the fancy word is for them. Will be trying this on a 'real world' problem next week, when I introduce react to our angular codebase :D
If you're a good computer scientist or have done notable things in tech, the UK's Tech City visa is a really simple and fast way of getting a 5-year visa for the UK that has a path to permanent residence then citizenship afterwards (after year 5 and 6 respectively). I've had friends use this with great success recently in engineering, product management and product marketing roles and quite short turnaround times (often less than a month if you've done a complete packet with references). It's most relevant if you've worked at either promising fast-growth startups or otherwise bigger tech companies before like Google/Facebook/etc.
Having a job lined up already is not required although you'll have to show work experience in the UK to stay after the 5 years. If you're in a marriage or partnership you can also get your partner's visa through this as well.
The criteria are pretty reasonable if you've done even noncommercial things like research and the "promising" track is suitable for younger/less experienced folks with demonstrable potential. Feel free to reach out if you have questions and I'll do my best to answer them. http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/
Having a job lined up already is not required although you'll have to show work experience in the UK to stay after the 5 years. If you're in a marriage or partnership you can also get your partner's visa through this as well.
The criteria are pretty reasonable if you've done even noncommercial things like research and the "promising" track is suitable for younger/less experienced folks with demonstrable potential. Feel free to reach out if you have questions and I'll do my best to answer them. http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/
I used to visit the UK a couple times a year. Beautiful country but I don't think I could ever justify moving there in light of recent events [1]. Especially considering that, coming from the US, greener pastures aren't all that hard to find.
1. http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-...
1. http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-...
[deleted]
Do learn some of the native language of your target country before you apply. Having that on your resume and being able to handle small talk in an interview demonstrates that you are serious about staying in the new country for some time.
There is lots of good advice on the Internet on how to learn a foreign language fast and it does not include "take a course" because the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps. Just do it, practice it every day in every way that you can, starting today. No excuses. EVERY DAY. If you have nobody else to talk to then talk to yourself in the foreign language. This is brain training and requires practice. And just like compound interest, working for an hour or so every day pays off big in language learning.
There is lots of good advice on the Internet on how to learn a foreign language fast and it does not include "take a course" because the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps. Just do it, practice it every day in every way that you can, starting today. No excuses. EVERY DAY. If you have nobody else to talk to then talk to yourself in the foreign language. This is brain training and requires practice. And just like compound interest, working for an hour or so every day pays off big in language learning.
If it helps others, Duolingo is obviously a good starting point for this (and free), but I also liked LingQ because you can import articles from the web and learn to read them word by word, building up your own personal dictionary in the process. So instead of pre-defined lessons, I learned by reading German song lyrics. (Unheilig is now my favorite band.)
Speaking / conversation is really important though, and I haven't solved that yet. iTalki looks good, but I've not yet tried any of the Skype sessions yet.
[0] https://duolingo.com/
[1] https://www.lingq.com/
[2] https://www.italki.com/
Speaking / conversation is really important though, and I haven't solved that yet. iTalki looks good, but I've not yet tried any of the Skype sessions yet.
[0] https://duolingo.com/
[1] https://www.lingq.com/
[2] https://www.italki.com/
> the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps
That's also my impression, having learned some languages in traditional courses and some others using Duolingo. It's not completely clear cut because there are presumably different types of learners, but yes, there are easier, cheaper, better resources than traditional courses.
That's also my impression, having learned some languages in traditional courses and some others using Duolingo. It's not completely clear cut because there are presumably different types of learners, but yes, there are easier, cheaper, better resources than traditional courses.
As part of my immigration requirements, I took 2 years - 550+ hours - of Norwegian instruction. I was in class for about 18 hours a week.
And the truth is, this has helped far beyond whatever I tried to piece together myself. I never actually found it as an obstacle.
And the truth is, I found that when I spoke Norwegian badly, the norm was to switch quickly to English - both because most Norwegians learned it and it is more efficient communcation (and helpful).
And the truth is, this has helped far beyond whatever I tried to piece together myself. I never actually found it as an obstacle.
And the truth is, I found that when I spoke Norwegian badly, the norm was to switch quickly to English - both because most Norwegians learned it and it is more efficient communcation (and helpful).
Life hack #1. Be prepared to take a 50-75% pay cut if you're relocating from the US.
And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)
So by some magical force all those things are free?
Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
Child care in SF, if you really need the full time kind that allows you to work full time (but not overtime) is going to run you about $2,500 a month. Two kids, you are looking at like $60k a year in childcare. If you have a family on an employer healthcare plan, you will likely have to cover some of it from your paycheck, $6k a year wouldn't be too unusual. Keep in mind, you'll still be the person who absolutely has to stop at 5:30, because you can't leave your kid at daycare.
Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
They are often taken from the companies cost to hire you before you see the number.
e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services
(all numbers are made up obviously).
e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services
(all numbers are made up obviously).
In Germany it is rather a rule of thumb that the company has to pay the same amount to you as to other instituations (social security contributions, pensions office, long-term care insurance, health insurance etc.).
Have you by chance had children and experienced the expense of childcare, education, and healthcare? It is incredibly expensive.
Public education in America is covered by taxes. If you're referring to college then that's on your kid. Parents have no obligation to pay for their child's college education.
Healthcare costs in the US are always blown out of proportion. No one is paying $30k for surgery out of pocket unless they don't have insurance, which is now against the law anyway. At most, people are paying $1k per month for a large family, and that's only if your employer is cheap. If you're a middle class tech worker it's likely you pay very little for healthcare if anything at all.
Healthcare costs in the US are always blown out of proportion. No one is paying $30k for surgery out of pocket unless they don't have insurance, which is now against the law anyway. At most, people are paying $1k per month for a large family, and that's only if your employer is cheap. If you're a middle class tech worker it's likely you pay very little for healthcare if anything at all.
And you do realize people are choosing to pay the penalty instead of health insurance because they can't afford the premiums, correct? It isn't even against the law, you just get a flat tax for doing so.
The problem isn't as much the surgeries, as some of them couldn't qualify without a way to pay. But can't afford prescriptions or to go to the doctor as they should.
The problem isn't as much the surgeries, as some of them couldn't qualify without a way to pay. But can't afford prescriptions or to go to the doctor as they should.
I find it interesting that you did not answer the question, but doubled down on speaking authoritatively about things you seem to not experience yourself.
Childcare for pre-kindergarten aged children is incredibly expensive. If you have more than one child, it is even more so. Even with one, a parent is likely to spend several hundred dollars per month on childcare during work hours.
Public education in a vast many school districts is not covered by taxes. There are school fees parents must pay at public schools. Then there are supply lists, where parents have to go out and buy supplies for their students and their classmates, all of which go to the teacher because the funding doesn't cover having adequate classroom supplies for instruction and activities. Then there are the actual supplies you fill a kid's backpack with. And even that doesn't cover all the needs, so every public school pushes fundraising activities onto the students (and their parents) throughout the year. Add on to that that work hours do not match up with school hours, so most parents add on additional daily childcare costs to have their children at school before school starts, and after it ends until they can leave work to pick up their child.
As far as college is concerned, you're sounding definitively like a non-parent. Most kids aren't ready, no matter how much you try to prepare them, to wake up after high school graduation and tackle college funding on their own. And if you're looking out for your child's financial future, you're likely to encourage them to avoid student loans—because you're still paying on yours and are wanting to help them avoid being in their 30s with kids, paying for that college degree that maybe helped them find a job that pays enough to cover all the expenses of having a family. I know few parents who say, "Well, high school is over, and you're 18 now. Abracadabra, there's the door, good luck!"
If you're lucky to have an employer providing health insurance, sure, you may luck out with a decent plan. But far too many working parents don't have this. Then there are fees to pay for each doctor visit, well-child checkups, and OTC or prescription medications for when the kids get sick—and, being weaponized factories of horrible nastiness who spend their entire days around other such buckets of grossness, they will get sick.
If you actually have children, and don't experience what the vast majority of American parents experience, you're incredibly lucky. Many parents would love to have childcare, education, and healthcare fully covered by their taxes. If they woke up tomorrow and had all these things available to them, I'd be willing to place a large bet they'd never want to go back to anything less—even if it meant mildly lower wages that were at least able to go toward everything else in life. Parents still need to have enough money for food, clothes, birthdays, holidays, vacations, extracurricular activities, sports, and so on—whatever they determine to be part of the life they want to provide their children.
Childcare for pre-kindergarten aged children is incredibly expensive. If you have more than one child, it is even more so. Even with one, a parent is likely to spend several hundred dollars per month on childcare during work hours.
Public education in a vast many school districts is not covered by taxes. There are school fees parents must pay at public schools. Then there are supply lists, where parents have to go out and buy supplies for their students and their classmates, all of which go to the teacher because the funding doesn't cover having adequate classroom supplies for instruction and activities. Then there are the actual supplies you fill a kid's backpack with. And even that doesn't cover all the needs, so every public school pushes fundraising activities onto the students (and their parents) throughout the year. Add on to that that work hours do not match up with school hours, so most parents add on additional daily childcare costs to have their children at school before school starts, and after it ends until they can leave work to pick up their child.
As far as college is concerned, you're sounding definitively like a non-parent. Most kids aren't ready, no matter how much you try to prepare them, to wake up after high school graduation and tackle college funding on their own. And if you're looking out for your child's financial future, you're likely to encourage them to avoid student loans—because you're still paying on yours and are wanting to help them avoid being in their 30s with kids, paying for that college degree that maybe helped them find a job that pays enough to cover all the expenses of having a family. I know few parents who say, "Well, high school is over, and you're 18 now. Abracadabra, there's the door, good luck!"
If you're lucky to have an employer providing health insurance, sure, you may luck out with a decent plan. But far too many working parents don't have this. Then there are fees to pay for each doctor visit, well-child checkups, and OTC or prescription medications for when the kids get sick—and, being weaponized factories of horrible nastiness who spend their entire days around other such buckets of grossness, they will get sick.
If you actually have children, and don't experience what the vast majority of American parents experience, you're incredibly lucky. Many parents would love to have childcare, education, and healthcare fully covered by their taxes. If they woke up tomorrow and had all these things available to them, I'd be willing to place a large bet they'd never want to go back to anything less—even if it meant mildly lower wages that were at least able to go toward everything else in life. Parents still need to have enough money for food, clothes, birthdays, holidays, vacations, extracurricular activities, sports, and so on—whatever they determine to be part of the life they want to provide their children.
Check tax rate in countries like the Netherlands.
I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though.
I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though.
I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
Consider it part of your total package, and your reduction in pay is offset by this
Add to that the disparity of food, housing cost. Its FAR FAR lower in countries I've visited, even in downtown cores, and the quality on both are generally better despite being cheaper.
I'd argue you can live a far better, less stressed and more fulfilling lifestyle in most countries in the EU on 1/3rd of the income as in the US.
I'd argue you can live a far better, less stressed and more fulfilling lifestyle in most countries in the EU on 1/3rd of the income as in the US.
I did not find this to be the case at all when I lived in Germany (Hesse), though being paid in US dollars for a US firm.
I would say the prices of food were at least as high as in the US, and while apartments were not SF expensive, but probably more like a small Midwestern city. Not having a car in the medium sized German city I lived in was not the deal breaker it would have been in the US, but it still was a pain. It didn't seem like the trains were really that cheap, and we also have busses in most US cities.
So in the end, I don't think living in Germany or similar at a salary equal to $50k is as nearly as good of deal as working in the Midwest US for $100k or the coasts for $150k. I'd be better off working here, living frugally a fear years, and then just taking the savings and go on an adventure without worrying about all the visa issues.
I would say the prices of food were at least as high as in the US, and while apartments were not SF expensive, but probably more like a small Midwestern city. Not having a car in the medium sized German city I lived in was not the deal breaker it would have been in the US, but it still was a pain. It didn't seem like the trains were really that cheap, and we also have busses in most US cities.
So in the end, I don't think living in Germany or similar at a salary equal to $50k is as nearly as good of deal as working in the Midwest US for $100k or the coasts for $150k. I'd be better off working here, living frugally a fear years, and then just taking the savings and go on an adventure without worrying about all the visa issues.
That "magical" force is called effective governance.
Seriously. I just got a recruiter spam email yesterday for a job in London with a salary listed at "up to £45k" (about $55k USD).
That's less than half of my current salary in a city with double the cost of living!
(I'm in Ohio, but apparently London is even more expensive than SF: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+...)
That's less than half of my current salary in a city with double the cost of living!
(I'm in Ohio, but apparently London is even more expensive than SF: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+...)
Up to £45k is an offer for an entry level job. If you have experience, you should be looking for £60k or more.
London is an amazing city if you can get a good job, otherwise, it can be quite hard to live there.
London is an amazing city if you can get a good job, otherwise, it can be quite hard to live there.
The email said they were looking for a "Senior/Lead" person, but I'm sure you're right in general.
They are not going to find a Lead developer for this price. And if they find someone, that person will move to another company after realising how salaries are in London.
http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where...
http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where...
For whatever it's worth, Numbeo disagrees: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
Oh, I thought that wolframalpha was limited to maths. Thanks, TIL.
Yeesh. Salaries across the US alone vary hugely just within IT. If you're moving from Silicon Valley to Amsterdam, sure, you'll have a pay cut. You'll also have vastly cheaper rent and an awesome quality of life, hardly any commuting hassle, and you almost certainly won't be working 50-80 hour weeks anymore.
One other important thing to realize is that as a software developer you are not only paid worse than in the US, but there are also other subtler differences.
In Germany for example, the difference between the median wage for the general population and the median wage for developers is much less pronounces than it is in the US.
You should expect to take a cut in terms of social status as well, being a developer in Europe isn't as sexy as it is in the US.
In Germany for example, the difference between the median wage for the general population and the median wage for developers is much less pronounces than it is in the US.
You should expect to take a cut in terms of social status as well, being a developer in Europe isn't as sexy as it is in the US.
Only it isn't really comparable that way. It is really give and take on that one. If actual money is your goal, you probably want to be really selective. But you might also be able to live a better lifestyle on those wages - or maybe like the culture or something like that.
Same sort of consideration folks have when moving from a coast to, say, the midwest (outside of cities). You make less money, have cheaper rent, but gotta have a car.
Same sort of consideration folks have when moving from a coast to, say, the midwest (outside of cities). You make less money, have cheaper rent, but gotta have a car.
In central Europe, make sure to become a contractor as soon as possible working for larger companies. That way you will be back at the old level.
Yeah because you'll get money instead of employee benefits. Money you might be forced by law to spend on things like health insurance. Not to mention the additional effort on your part when it comes to securing contracts, managing taxes, insurance and just overall having less job security.
Sort of on-topic; we're hiring in Sweden and we don't care where you're from.
http://www.massive.se/jobs
http://www.massive.se/jobs
What about don't caring where one works from? ;)
Unfortunately, we need you to be in the office.
Even if remote working was culturally accepted in ubisoft I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway.
Even if remote working was culturally accepted in ubisoft I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway.
> I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway.
No problem with that. It is even preferable. Also 1-2 week(s) onsite stints once in awhile afterwards.
No problem with that. It is even preferable. Also 1-2 week(s) onsite stints once in awhile afterwards.
Of course Sweden itself might care.
Malmö? Tempting.
Very, but sadly it looks like I'm not the right kind of programmer for them. :(
ubisoft? will you relocate me to sweden?
If you're a fit for our roles, we will.
I am a relocatee working in Malmo now. :)
I am a relocatee working in Malmo now. :)
As a software developer living in Germany I wouldn't mind swopping with someone in the USA? Any takers?
Are you saying that the grass is always greener on the other side?
Why bother for the US if you have German-speaking Switzerland nearby, with great salaries?
Same as other commenter: Switzerland is SO expensive. Of course the salaries are higher, but damn. You can get away with spending very little in Germany, and saving a higher percentage of your salary.
Of course, the best hack is to live in Germany but work in Switzerland.
Of course, the best hack is to live in Germany but work in Switzerland.
It is not too bad if you don't have three kids or something. I would carefully do the math with a family but otherwise it is totally worth it to make the move. If you live in Germany you would probably have to pay German taxes.
Because it is well-known that the Swiss people are not fond of German immigrants. While I feel that Germany and Austria have a rather similar culture (though I'm probably biased here since my father is Austrian), the there is a much larger difference in culture (and German language) between Germany and Switzerland.". While the Germans hardly have problems with Swiss people, the other direction is more complicated. Just google for 'Schweiz Fremdenfeindlichkeit gegen Deutsche' to get lots of German articles about this.
Also the living expensess are much higher in Switzerland. As a rule of thumb I have heard: "If you get two times in Switzerland of what you get in Germany: Take the job. If it is much less: don't.".
Also the living expensess are much higher in Switzerland. As a rule of thumb I have heard: "If you get two times in Switzerland of what you get in Germany: Take the job. If it is much less: don't.".
I chime in. iOS From LA -> Berlin anyone?
I am a data scientist working at a big firm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have a PhD in CS with a specialization in AI / Machine Learning / NLP from a US university.
I am from India. So I assume my nationality will be an immigration barrier in most countries. Is this something I should mention while formally applying?
I am from India. So I assume my nationality will be an immigration barrier in most countries. Is this something I should mention while formally applying?
This year I relocated myself and my family (four kids) to Nicaragua. Both my wife and I speak fluent spanish, but I was very surprised by how hard and how expensive it was. Some things I learned:
- Finding what you need is hard. We've got to buy a hula hoop for our kid's school. We don't know exactly where to go, and wind up driving around for 3 hours to find the right thing
- Small things are hard. We spend hours each month waiting in lines at banks to pay the electricity bill, the water bill, the internet bill, rent, the plumber, the reservation fee for a beach house. I miss bill pay terribly.
- Culture is vastly different. Where in the US I felt like our family was well put together, here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day
But on the flip side, we've been here 5 months and have already seen 4 volcanoes, numerous beaches with world-class surfing, my kids are starting to learn Spanish, and it's been a wonderful time to focus on what's really important for us.
I'd recommend it, but not to anyone. You've got to be prepared for this.
But on the flip side, we've been here 5 months and have already seen 4 volcanoes, numerous beaches with world-class surfing, my kids are starting to learn Spanish, and it's been a wonderful time to focus on what's really important for us.
I'd recommend it, but not to anyone. You've got to be prepared for this.
> here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day
Perhaps worth noting that in some countries hiring domestic help is seen as a kind of social requirement if you're wealthy enough to do that. Basically for job creation. No idea what's the case in Nicaragua though.
Perhaps worth noting that in some countries hiring domestic help is seen as a kind of social requirement if you're wealthy enough to do that. Basically for job creation. No idea what's the case in Nicaragua though.
Be aware that if you are looking for a job in a EU country you have a disadvantage against other job candidates from a EU country. Most countries have a quota for non-EU work visa, whereas there is no so thing for employees from an EU country. That means that your employer would have to go through some hassle to sponsor your visa. That usually means you need to have a searched for specialization and senior level work experience.
If you don't have this specialization or not enough work experience you could try to look for jobs in remote areas where employers have problems to find people. The southwest of Germany with those zillions of small to middle sized mechanical engineering companies would be an example for that. Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city, you could describe those places as boring (or laid back, depending on your point of view) and you would definitely have to learn the language.
If you don't have this specialization or not enough work experience you could try to look for jobs in remote areas where employers have problems to find people. The southwest of Germany with those zillions of small to middle sized mechanical engineering companies would be an example for that. Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city, you could describe those places as boring (or laid back, depending on your point of view) and you would definitely have to learn the language.
I've started this process myself (an experienced American web developer). One advantage I might have here over others is my wife is a dual-citizen (France/US).
The one offer I received is about half what I make now. I turned it down hoping to hold out for something better. I've gathered that one's salary will very wildly based on the country (Switzerland seems to be the highest). The loss of salary has been disappointing and something that I'm willing to sacrifice (there are other advantages that offset it, like work/life balance) but not so much that I'm making less than an entry level salary in the US.
This site looks promising so thanks for sharing. If there are any more sites like this, or recruiters that specialize in this kind of thing, I'd love to know.
The one offer I received is about half what I make now. I turned it down hoping to hold out for something better. I've gathered that one's salary will very wildly based on the country (Switzerland seems to be the highest). The loss of salary has been disappointing and something that I'm willing to sacrifice (there are other advantages that offset it, like work/life balance) but not so much that I'm making less than an entry level salary in the US.
This site looks promising so thanks for sharing. If there are any more sites like this, or recruiters that specialize in this kind of thing, I'd love to know.
Last year I was in Europe on a self-funded sabbatical. I was backpacking around the world for about 11 months.
I had a few interviews in Germany and The Netherlands that didn't work out, but one thing I did notice is that many European countries don't have the huge income wage gap for software engineers.
An engineer that might go for $150k in Chicago or Seattle would be about 50h ~ 55k euro in Berlin. It works it self out with lower costs for groceries, better public transportation, reasonable housing prices, etc.
The loss of salary you mention might seem bad for you, but it's part of having generally lower income inequality. The wage gaps in America (a lot of it brought on by the high demand and cost of housing and our poor transportation networks) are not good for people without tech jobs in cities that are dominated by them.
I had a few interviews in Germany and The Netherlands that didn't work out, but one thing I did notice is that many European countries don't have the huge income wage gap for software engineers.
An engineer that might go for $150k in Chicago or Seattle would be about 50h ~ 55k euro in Berlin. It works it self out with lower costs for groceries, better public transportation, reasonable housing prices, etc.
The loss of salary you mention might seem bad for you, but it's part of having generally lower income inequality. The wage gaps in America (a lot of it brought on by the high demand and cost of housing and our poor transportation networks) are not good for people without tech jobs in cities that are dominated by them.
> An engineer that might go for $150k in Chicago or Seattle would be about 50h ~ 55k euro in Berlin.
Given the current exchange rate, that's a shocking gap between the US and Europe. People will happily sit in some traffic to make 3x as much.
Given the current exchange rate, that's a shocking gap between the US and Europe. People will happily sit in some traffic to make 3x as much.
You can live in the very core of berlin for around EU1500/mo, and much cheaper in places only a few blocks away from the subway that will get you to work in 1/4 the time. Food costs are about 50% less than in the US, for better quality. You can travel to any other city and other countries by fairly inexpensive train or cheap flights. You can spend 1600 on room/utilities, 400 on food, 100 on transportation and have 1600euros a month for whatever you want at that salary, with no worries about your health or looking after your kids.
But you probably won't have 4000 square foot house to store your 4 cars in.
But you probably won't have 4000 square foot house to store your 4 cars in.
> But you probably won't have 4000 square foot house to store your 4 cars in.
Or more generally, you'll just have a whole heck of a lot less money, which was the point. I wonder if djsumdog was exaggerating, though, by failing to compare like against like. The numbers he quoted for US engineers represent the pretty high end. Are there really engineers in Berlin making a lot less than 50k Euros/year?
Or more generally, you'll just have a whole heck of a lot less money, which was the point. I wonder if djsumdog was exaggerating, though, by failing to compare like against like. The numbers he quoted for US engineers represent the pretty high end. Are there really engineers in Berlin making a lot less than 50k Euros/year?
Belgian speaking here. Have 4 years of experience, my first salary was around 40k. Current salary is 46k, and I am moving next month to Paris in a top tech company (reputed to pay very well there), that will offer me 59k + 14k (average bonus, etc.). And I consider myself on the high end of the spectrum, so yeah, I am pretty sure there is a lot of (young) engineers making less than 50k in Berlin.
NL here. From my previous employer I was making more than 80k euro per year as an engineer, but almost half of the money goes to tax.
So what is the point there? So I quit and work for 3 days per week. Much less money before tax but after tax not really. I feel it is good deal to take 2 days back to life.
So if you want to live in Europe, forget about working for someone else.
So what is the point there? So I quit and work for 3 days per week. Much less money before tax but after tax not really. I feel it is good deal to take 2 days back to life.
So if you want to live in Europe, forget about working for someone else.
Overall, wages in France will be lower in software - with important things to keep in mind:
- health and education are dirt cheap. This is phenomenal for a family (even compared to the the U.K.). The downside is you have less control on your kids/health.
- roles and culture in most companies are still stuck in the 90s. Push and evangelize on what/how you do and you'll get fitter offers
- you'll work less. More holidays, shorter work weeks. Life in Paris is stressfull so you'll need that. A nice bonus is that most Europe cities are a short flight away, great for week ends. Lyon/Munich/Amsterdam/Barcelona are all excellent places too (better than Paris and even London in many respects)
Hopefully we get at least some of you guys to move over here and push for a better community : )
- health and education are dirt cheap. This is phenomenal for a family (even compared to the the U.K.). The downside is you have less control on your kids/health.
- roles and culture in most companies are still stuck in the 90s. Push and evangelize on what/how you do and you'll get fitter offers
- you'll work less. More holidays, shorter work weeks. Life in Paris is stressfull so you'll need that. A nice bonus is that most Europe cities are a short flight away, great for week ends. Lyon/Munich/Amsterdam/Barcelona are all excellent places too (better than Paris and even London in many respects)
Hopefully we get at least some of you guys to move over here and push for a better community : )
Do bear in mind the different costs of living. My company relocated me from the UK to Switzerland; my salary rose significantly --- but it doesn't make me better off, because I'm spending more.
Depending where you go, it's quite possible that a lower gross salary could end up being quite reasonable simply because costs are lower. (Although that's not going to be true in Switzerland.)
Depending where you go, it's quite possible that a lower gross salary could end up being quite reasonable simply because costs are lower. (Although that's not going to be true in Switzerland.)
You have to compare based on cost of living.
So you want to get paid like a highly-paid American engineer, but have significantly reduced cost of living and a better work/life balance?
Let me know how that works out for you. Might have to shed the entitlement.
Let me know how that works out for you. Might have to shed the entitlement.
Work holiday visas are a great way of getting into Europe if your country qualifies for it. Many people transition from these visas into a work permit. It's way easier to find a job when you're on the ground and can get a face-to-face interview. http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visainfo.html
I would love to move to Europe. As of now I am planning at least to retire in Europe (lack of high property taxes makes retirement easier). But the lack of jobs, especially interesting ones, in the warmer Mediterranean countries keeps me away. I am a dual citizen (US/EU), so I would have no visa issues unless I go to Croatia.
This site only re-enforces the fact that all the tech jobs are up north.
This site only re-enforces the fact that all the tech jobs are up north.
Is this a good thread to mention "we're hiring"? :)
Sustainable energy company in Amsterdam. We can do visas.
https://vandebron.nl/vacancies
Sustainable energy company in Amsterdam. We can do visas.
https://vandebron.nl/vacancies
First life hack: make sure you want to live in Europe.
I like the parts of Europe I've been to (Germany, Ireland, France, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands)
Having said that, don't expect it to be better than wherever you are. There is no promised land.
I'm saying this even though I work for a large company with offices throughout Europe. I could transfer without any difficulty and get paid relocation to my choice of cool European cities. That's not to sound braggy, just to say that just because you have the opportunity it's worth considering whether its worth the jump for you.
I like the parts of Europe I've been to (Germany, Ireland, France, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands)
Having said that, don't expect it to be better than wherever you are. There is no promised land.
I'm saying this even though I work for a large company with offices throughout Europe. I could transfer without any difficulty and get paid relocation to my choice of cool European cities. That's not to sound braggy, just to say that just because you have the opportunity it's worth considering whether its worth the jump for you.
I miss the small familiarities when abroad. Small things like the style of windows, houses, roads, smells. Also, national forests.
Bigger things: being a native speaker, knowing how all the institutions (schools, churches, etc.) work. Never having to learn subtle stuff about how to interact in this or that rare situation. Being a citizen of the place you live. Being near family.
Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.
Bigger things: being a native speaker, knowing how all the institutions (schools, churches, etc.) work. Never having to learn subtle stuff about how to interact in this or that rare situation. Being a citizen of the place you live. Being near family.
Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.
> Small things like the style of windows,
German windows design and their obsession with fresh air is such a subtle but absolutely fantastic part of their culture IMHO.
German windows design and their obsession with fresh air is such a subtle but absolutely fantastic part of their culture IMHO.
It is never a practical thing, and it happens even while you are happy where you land.
I really enjoy living in Norway. I miss the color of dirt and smell where I was in the US. I still find the color weird. It isn't to say that I don't like it or that one is better or worse, really, just one is more familiar. SImple as that.
I really enjoy living in Norway. I miss the color of dirt and smell where I was in the US. I still find the color weird. It isn't to say that I don't like it or that one is better or worse, really, just one is more familiar. SImple as that.
Right, German windows are better in every way. I didn't say my nostalgia for home was at all rational :-)
I love Japanese roofs!
For me - aside from being far from my family - this is a list of benefits, not drawbacks. I love the process of getting to know my new environment.
In addition to being an intellectually interesting exercise, every little change makes me just that much better at being able to examine problems from different angles and reframe my perspective when necessary.
This isn't to say it's always a walk in the park, of course. My first move from the US to China was a little rough, but totally worth it in the end.
In addition to being an intellectually interesting exercise, every little change makes me just that much better at being able to examine problems from different angles and reframe my perspective when necessary.
This isn't to say it's always a walk in the park, of course. My first move from the US to China was a little rough, but totally worth it in the end.
All those little things you listed are precisely what's interesting about relocating. The broad strokes of life are defined by income level everywhere, the details not. The details are interesting (to me).
Having spent 15+ years in Europe, mostly in Italy, but also Austria, now I'm familiar with how two places work. I feel I'm better off for it, as it helps me think about what works and what doesn't in different places.
> Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.
So true. I emigrated three times. I learned a lot. But there was so much sacrifice that I ask myself now and then if it was worth it.
So true. I emigrated three times. I learned a lot. But there was so much sacrifice that I ask myself now and then if it was worth it.
Language is also something to look into, and varies quite a lot across Europe (both the languages, and how common multilingualism is). You can get hired in tech with only English fluency in many countries, but how easily varies, and how easily you can carry on daily life varies even more. For example you can get many jobs in both Copenhagen and Berlin speaking only English, but in Copenhagen you can also do almost everything else in English (government agencies all speak English, most forms are bilingual Danish/English, banks and doctors' offices all do English, etc.), whereas in Germany the civil service, and even things like doctors, generally expect you to interact with them in German. Not that you shouldn't also learn some Danish in Denmark, but how critical it is to quickly become fluent in the national language(s) varies a lot between countries.
I lived with a friend in Germany for several months and there were several things that did require German. Anything related to her visa and immigration (which you had to book appointments for a week in advance) require you fill out paperwork and speak in German. It was the same for her taxes.
Her German was good, but one thing that stressed her out was dealing with banks/money. She didn't want to screw up, but her banks would refuse to let her communicate in English on phone calls (this might be a rule/liability thing).
A lot of people do speak English, especially younger people as it's generally taught in primary school, but I also met many young adults, even in large cities like Munich, who didn't.
Her German was good, but one thing that stressed her out was dealing with banks/money. She didn't want to screw up, but her banks would refuse to let her communicate in English on phone calls (this might be a rule/liability thing).
A lot of people do speak English, especially younger people as it's generally taught in primary school, but I also met many young adults, even in large cities like Munich, who didn't.
I'm from Czech and pretty much everyone under 30 speaks fluent English. Old elementary school friends could hold a normal discussion without skipping a beat.
But boy, the second I went into the old part of my childhood town and wanted to get some food from the bakery, not a single person could understand English (which is fine because I speak fluent Czech).
I had a situation about a decade and a half ago when a french person stopped by a gas station and the clerk could not, for the life of him, communicate with the french guy but within ten minutes, a bunch of teenagers were able to translate.
So it's not just official stuff (which makes sense) but also an age and location thing like you said. If you break down on the high way, stop at an old town, or try to deal with an establishment is generally run by someone over the age of 40, you can find yourself in an uncomfortable situation.
However, I'm kind of surprised at the bank thing.
But boy, the second I went into the old part of my childhood town and wanted to get some food from the bakery, not a single person could understand English (which is fine because I speak fluent Czech).
I had a situation about a decade and a half ago when a french person stopped by a gas station and the clerk could not, for the life of him, communicate with the french guy but within ten minutes, a bunch of teenagers were able to translate.
So it's not just official stuff (which makes sense) but also an age and location thing like you said. If you break down on the high way, stop at an old town, or try to deal with an establishment is generally run by someone over the age of 40, you can find yourself in an uncomfortable situation.
However, I'm kind of surprised at the bank thing.
In bank or medical situations you can run into situations where even though the people all know English, they might not have the necessary vocabulary to express themselves in English or lack certification proving they do. Anyone who doesn't want to fuck up simply won't use English and require a translator.
I think this is something different in Denmark mainly because, since it's such a small country, a Danish person in these sectors needs to be comfortable with the relevant technical English vocabulary anyway, even when not interacting with foreigners. Many materials are not translated into Danish, especially when you get past the introductory textbook level, so there's an expectation that if you're in a high-skill, university-qualified profession, you can read/write and speak professional English. ("Professional" here meaning that you have a working English knowledge of your own profession, not necessarily that you can talk about all subjects in English.)
How can you be sure you want to live in Europe without living in Europe?
As a Brit who's lived and worked in Australia and the Netherlands: just take the freaking plunge. It won't be the end of the world if you decide you're not happy and want to move back, and if it works out, imagine the possibilities.
As a Brit who's lived and worked in Australia and the Netherlands: just take the freaking plunge. It won't be the end of the world if you decide you're not happy and want to move back, and if it works out, imagine the possibilities.
As someone who is thinking of taking the plunge for Australia:
What are you thoughts on life there compared to the UK and NL? Especially as a software engineer.
What are you thoughts on life there compared to the UK and NL? Especially as a software engineer.
Australia is a fantastic place to live. People are very friendly, though it's a little more like the NL than the UK in that many people tend to stay friends with their old school friends rather than being very outwardly social, forming lasting friendships with strangers like I experienced in the UK.
The weather is amazing, though the north is very hot in summer (duh) and the south gets its share of rain. NSW is pretty fantastic year round.
When I was there I worked for a tiny games company for a couple of years, one of the best work experiences of my life actually. The pay wasn't great but quality of life was good (I was in Brisbane).
Try it! You will never know if you don't! :)
The weather is amazing, though the north is very hot in summer (duh) and the south gets its share of rain. NSW is pretty fantastic year round.
When I was there I worked for a tiny games company for a couple of years, one of the best work experiences of my life actually. The pay wasn't great but quality of life was good (I was in Brisbane).
Try it! You will never know if you don't! :)
On the other hand if you are young and tempted, go for it! Moving internationally gets so much harder when you have a partner, house, family etc., even if an employer is paying.
A lot of countries have a live/work visa for people under 30.
As an Eastern European that's a very good point you make. I'm still living and working in my home-country, unlike many of my peers, but were I move westward I'd only do it to a city which I've previously visited as a tourist and I liked. So as a suggestion to US people wanting to relocate to Europe, before you make the move maybe it'd be worth visiting your target location at least for 3 or 4 days.
Technology law in Europe is even worse than it is in the US, if you can believe it. Something important for entrepreneurs/hackers to consider.
Can you elaborate? I've always heard this but never with any details.
- The cookie law: https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/
- In Germany if you put up a web site that has to contain a site imprint. If you don't put all the required informations on it, you can easily get sued.
- In Germany if you put up an open WiFi, if you don't pay a lot of attention on the legal details, it can easily happen that you get sued if someone does something illegal on your open WiFi (Mitstörerhaftung; the internet dictionary that I use does not even know how this can be translated to English, because such a concept seems to be unheard of in English-speaking countries).
- The Datenschutzgesetz (data protection act). While I consider it as a good idea, it is very foreign for people from the US. You are only allowed to store as few data as necessary on a person and if necessary you have to anonymize or pseudonomize the data:
> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__3a.html
You also have a right to get information what data is stored about you:
> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__19.html
Such laws caused problems for Facebook: http://europe-v-facebook.org/EN/en.html
- The (in)famous §202c StGB: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/202c.html which makes it a dangerous legal gray zone to to security research.
- In Germany if you put up a web site that has to contain a site imprint. If you don't put all the required informations on it, you can easily get sued.
- In Germany if you put up an open WiFi, if you don't pay a lot of attention on the legal details, it can easily happen that you get sued if someone does something illegal on your open WiFi (Mitstörerhaftung; the internet dictionary that I use does not even know how this can be translated to English, because such a concept seems to be unheard of in English-speaking countries).
- The Datenschutzgesetz (data protection act). While I consider it as a good idea, it is very foreign for people from the US. You are only allowed to store as few data as necessary on a person and if necessary you have to anonymize or pseudonomize the data:
> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__3a.html
You also have a right to get information what data is stored about you:
> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__19.html
Such laws caused problems for Facebook: http://europe-v-facebook.org/EN/en.html
- The (in)famous §202c StGB: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/202c.html which makes it a dangerous legal gray zone to to security research.
Thanks - I've always known about the cookie law but not those other acts. It does seem harder for a tech company.
Most prominently, a mere collection of facts can be copyrighted by someone in Europe as long as that entity spent substantial effort collecting/collating/displaying it (the "Database Directive"). In the US, a minimum amount of creativity is required before a work is considered copyrightable per Feist v. Rural Telephone Co.. This can have a serious effect on which datasets are free for your program to use.
Both the US and the EU have a long history of shutting down companies that incorporate "screen scraping" to gather data, even if that data is freely available or owned by the entity controlling the scraper. But the EU may shut you down whether you contact someone's server or not, on the basis of violating database ownership.
I'm not a lawyer in either jurisdiction so this is just based on my layman's knowledge and may not be complete.
Both the US and the EU have a long history of shutting down companies that incorporate "screen scraping" to gather data, even if that data is freely available or owned by the entity controlling the scraper. But the EU may shut you down whether you contact someone's server or not, on the basis of violating database ownership.
I'm not a lawyer in either jurisdiction so this is just based on my layman's knowledge and may not be complete.
I guess I don't get the database IP laws - are they copyrighting the actual information or the source of the information?
SanomaTech (virtual org of Sanoma Media) is hiring in the Netherlands:
https://github.com/sanoma
https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw
https://github.com/sanoma
https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw
One thing the article did not touch on is the administrative aspect. Visa requirements, social norms, etc. It all contributes to the decision. Oh, don't forget to talk to your SO as well.
Off-topic, but that stock image misspelled "Sydney".
I think Europe pays much worse than US for SWE. Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.
if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.
'Fortunately' hardly any programming jobs in Europe pay over 100k
'Fortunately' hardly any programming jobs in Europe pay over 100k
> pays much worse than US for SWE.
Might make sense to include the cost of living into your calculation, wouldn't it?
> Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.
I would guess that every country in the EU has a Double taxation agreement with the US.
Might make sense to include the cost of living into your calculation, wouldn't it?
> Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.
I would guess that every country in the EU has a Double taxation agreement with the US.
Unless you gain citizenship elsewhere and relinquish your US citizenship. :)
Also you can deduct the taxes paid in the EU so you are not going to be paying US taxes if you are being taxed legitimately.
Is there a similar site/service for upper-management/product manager/analytics roles?
This is exactly what I was looking for! Good resource at the right time!
Working from Mexico. Moving was hard but the payoff was worth it.
ausjke(2)
One way plane ticket: 500 Dollar
Fake Syrian passport that unlocks residency, shelter, food, pocket money and health insurance: 250 Dollar
A German chancellor that is a criminal and is breaking German law and Agreements like Dublin III: priceless.
There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there is MasterCard.
Fake Syrian passport that unlocks residency, shelter, food, pocket money and health insurance: 250 Dollar
A German chancellor that is a criminal and is breaking German law and Agreements like Dublin III: priceless.
There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there is MasterCard.
You're going to put a fake passport on your credit card?! :)
Why not? Yes, it is illegal but nobody gives a f. in Germany. The rule of law has long been gone under former secret police agent Angela Merkel (please google "IM Erika").
Edit: All the guys with great relationships... I was attempting unsuccessfully to be funny. Have a great weekend.
Edit 2: It appears from the replies below that 75% of men that follow a girl to another country find it to be the best decision they ever made. I would like to formally retract my Lifehack