Migrants have net positive impact on New Zealand(nzinitiative.org.nz)
nzinitiative.org.nz
Migrants have net positive impact on New Zealand
https://nzinitiative.org.nz/insights/reports/the-new-new-zealanders/
47 comments
> As a New Zealander, born and raised in Auckland. Immigrants are bad for society ... There are large pockets of Indian and Chinese people who refuse to integrate into society. Refusing to learn English ...
I'm just going quote the original article here: "Of those who do choose to move to New Zealand permanently, analysis of the New Zealand General Social Survey show immigrants integrate well. They are less likely to claim a benefit, more likely to be employed, and their children have better education outcomes than native born New Zealanders."
> I live in Singapore now.
This is rich. Singapore's official languages are Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, and English. The official national language is Malay. Let me take a wild guess ... as an immigrant to Singapore, you've been studiously learning Malay, Mandarin and Tamil, and you absolutely do not segregate into a clique of white anglophones in your social life. Good for you, model immigrant that you are. /s
I'm just going quote the original article here: "Of those who do choose to move to New Zealand permanently, analysis of the New Zealand General Social Survey show immigrants integrate well. They are less likely to claim a benefit, more likely to be employed, and their children have better education outcomes than native born New Zealanders."
> I live in Singapore now.
This is rich. Singapore's official languages are Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, and English. The official national language is Malay. Let me take a wild guess ... as an immigrant to Singapore, you've been studiously learning Malay, Mandarin and Tamil, and you absolutely do not segregate into a clique of white anglophones in your social life. Good for you, model immigrant that you are. /s
This is rich. Singapore's official languages are Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, and English. The official national language is Malay. Let me take a wild guess ... as an immigrant to Singapore, you've been studiously learning Malay, Mandarin and Tamil, and you absolutely do not segregate into a clique of white anglophones in your social life. Good for you, model immigrant that you are. /s
Your ignorance of Singapore is showing here. English is by far the most widely spoken language of that country. it's the language of the education system, of the government, road signs, etc. It's the most widely spoken language at home, and the lingua franca of the country. You might as well berate immigrants to New Zealand for not learning Maori or NZSL.
Your ignorance of Singapore is showing here. English is by far the most widely spoken language of that country. it's the language of the education system, of the government, road signs, etc. It's the most widely spoken language at home, and the lingua franca of the country. You might as well berate immigrants to New Zealand for not learning Maori or NZSL.
>Your ignorance of Singapore is showing here.
Thanks, but I have spent a great deal of time in Singapore and know perfectly well what language road signs are in.
> You might as well berate immigrants to New Zealand for not learning Maori or NZSL.
You are comparing the importance of Malay and Mandarin in Singapore to sign language ... I think perhaps it is your ignorance of Singapore's ethnic peoples that is showing here.
Thanks, but I have spent a great deal of time in Singapore and know perfectly well what language road signs are in.
> You might as well berate immigrants to New Zealand for not learning Maori or NZSL.
You are comparing the importance of Malay and Mandarin in Singapore to sign language ... I think perhaps it is your ignorance of Singapore's ethnic peoples that is showing here.
Singapore is a city state, and its main language is English. Not learning one of its secondary languages hardly equates to not integrating.
I'm a New Zealander, and strongly pro-immigration. Given how many emigrants there are (including, currently, me), if nothing else we'd run out of people pretty quickly without it. And I don't believe integration is currently that much of an issue in New Zealand. However:
> "Of those who do choose to move to New Zealand permanently, analysis of the New Zealand General Social Survey show immigrants integrate well. They are less likely to claim a benefit, more likely to be employed, and their children have better education outcomes than native born New Zealanders."
None of those show integration in a way I recognize as valuable culturally. They would be equally true if we were measuring a segregated expat enclave in a developing nation, but that's simply a factor of leveraging existing power structures.
> "Of those who do choose to move to New Zealand permanently, analysis of the New Zealand General Social Survey show immigrants integrate well. They are less likely to claim a benefit, more likely to be employed, and their children have better education outcomes than native born New Zealanders."
None of those show integration in a way I recognize as valuable culturally. They would be equally true if we were measuring a segregated expat enclave in a developing nation, but that's simply a factor of leveraging existing power structures.
Lol love the assumptions.
Is it migrants that refuse to learn the local language, or locals who refuse to learn the migrants' languages? I don't see that either group is in a position to demand what the other group learns or how they conduct their private activities. If you want to be part of their community then learn their language. If you prefer to isolate yourself with your fellow locals, then do that. Both ways are OK and you have nothing to complain about.
The native Maoris were pressured into learning the immigrant's English language 100+ years ago. Perhaps you would be happier if that never happened?
It's ironic that you're in Singapore, an openly multi-lingual country. Which groups are using the "wrong" language there?
The native Maoris were pressured into learning the immigrant's English language 100+ years ago. Perhaps you would be happier if that never happened?
It's ironic that you're in Singapore, an openly multi-lingual country. Which groups are using the "wrong" language there?
> Is it migrants that refuse to learn the local language, or locals who refuse to learn the migrants' languages?
Why would locals have to learn the migrants' languages, unless they wanted to deal with them or there was money in it?
When people move to a country, they can either assimilate into the country or try to take over the country.
Since that's how most of the new world was settled, if you live here and want things to stay sort of the way they are, you want immigrants to assimilate and learn your language.
If they don't want to learn your language, immigrants should go places where the language they speak is used.
Why would locals have to learn the migrants' languages, unless they wanted to deal with them or there was money in it?
When people move to a country, they can either assimilate into the country or try to take over the country.
Since that's how most of the new world was settled, if you live here and want things to stay sort of the way they are, you want immigrants to assimilate and learn your language.
If they don't want to learn your language, immigrants should go places where the language they speak is used.
Locals don't have to learn immigrants' languages. They also don't have to integrate with them. But they can. If you value integrating and sharing a language, then you personally should go to the trouble of doing that, not complain that somebody else isn't doing what you want.
Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth. If you want a stagnant place, you should find one which has such restrictions written into its laws or bylaws so you can have more confidence that it'll stay how it is. What else don't you want to change? Young people looking at their smartphones all day instead of having conversations with you? No new slang words? Where are the boundaries of what you expect other people are obliged to do for the benefit of your feeling of familiarity?
Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth. If you want a stagnant place, you should find one which has such restrictions written into its laws or bylaws so you can have more confidence that it'll stay how it is. What else don't you want to change? Young people looking at their smartphones all day instead of having conversations with you? No new slang words? Where are the boundaries of what you expect other people are obliged to do for the benefit of your feeling of familiarity?
> Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth.
Legal immigration is virtually non-existent in China. There goes goes your stagnation theory.
Legal immigration is virtually non-existent in China. There goes goes your stagnation theory.
My comment was about things staying the way they were, not only immigration. China is unrecognizably different now because of growth. What if you didn't like high rise apartments spoiling your ocean view? Sorry, it's changed. What if you didn't like having no young people working on your farm and looking after you when you're old? Sorry, it's changed. What if you didn't like not knowing your neighbors because there are too many of them? Oh, and people in cities have even largely changed their dialect to be able to communicate with Chinese from other areas. Somebody who prefers to keep their same way of life wouldn't get on well there.
> My comment was about things staying the way they were, not only immigration.
No, your comment was originally why people who live a certain place don't learn the language of the migrants, not the other way around.
This has nothing to do with the point of the original comment, which is about immigrants failing to assimilate. If you move to another country, you should expect to become familiar with both the language and the social mores, and use the social mores in interactions with the people who were already there before you, or get treated poorly by the people who were already there.
Most countries don't want to get colonized again.
No, your comment was originally why people who live a certain place don't learn the language of the migrants, not the other way around.
This has nothing to do with the point of the original comment, which is about immigrants failing to assimilate. If you move to another country, you should expect to become familiar with both the language and the social mores, and use the social mores in interactions with the people who were already there before you, or get treated poorly by the people who were already there.
Most countries don't want to get colonized again.
> Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth
If you rely on immigration for economic growth then you aren't really getting economic growth.
If you rely on immigration for economic growth then you aren't really getting economic growth.
> But they can.
But they shouldn't have to.
> not complain that somebody else isn't doing what you want.
No, you're saying that other people are wasting your time by not learning effective ways to communicate. They shouldn't expect you to do anything you've expressed no interest in doing.
> Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth
Your points are incoherent and make no sense. Economic growth was huge in the years after WWII, and remained stable for a long time without massive changes. And then you segue into cultural change from economic growth? Give me a break.
If you are an immigrant, you're making a change in your environment because you didn't like the way things were in the place you were moving from. Not learning the language or the customs in the place you're moving to is expecting things to stay the way they are far more than people who stay put in one place.
Basically, if you move, you probably have a good reason for moving. Don't try to transplant the way things were in the place you were to the place you're moving to.
But they shouldn't have to.
> not complain that somebody else isn't doing what you want.
No, you're saying that other people are wasting your time by not learning effective ways to communicate. They shouldn't expect you to do anything you've expressed no interest in doing.
> Expecting things to stay the way they are isn't compatible with economic growth
Your points are incoherent and make no sense. Economic growth was huge in the years after WWII, and remained stable for a long time without massive changes. And then you segue into cultural change from economic growth? Give me a break.
If you are an immigrant, you're making a change in your environment because you didn't like the way things were in the place you were moving from. Not learning the language or the customs in the place you're moving to is expecting things to stay the way they are far more than people who stay put in one place.
Basically, if you move, you probably have a good reason for moving. Don't try to transplant the way things were in the place you were to the place you're moving to.
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If you go to any Asian or middle eastern country. You must follow their rules and their way of life. But the west is like. Oh no come into our country, do what ever you want, we have a fake freedom for you to enjoy.
Do you have specific examples? Besides laws, I can't think of any. What are the consequences for not following their way of life? Isolation from their social group? Hasn't that already happened to isolated Asians and Indians in New Zealand?
> Is it migrants that refuse to learn the local language, or locals who refuse to learn the migrants' languages?
Good point. In my 2 years in NZ, no one invited me to a BBQ, because I am eastern European. I mostly hang out with asian colleagues.
At work though it's kind of cool to have such a multicultural teams (unless you are manager - those positions are still mostly kiwi (I guess more of an age thing, than nepotism)). I guess it's what USA was a century ago.
Good point. In my 2 years in NZ, no one invited me to a BBQ, because I am eastern European. I mostly hang out with asian colleagues.
At work though it's kind of cool to have such a multicultural teams (unless you are manager - those positions are still mostly kiwi (I guess more of an age thing, than nepotism)). I guess it's what USA was a century ago.
>> As a New Zealander ... Immigrants are bad for society ... I live in Singapore now.
Perhaps if you reflect on those contradictions, you may gain a more nuanced view.
Perhaps if you reflect on those contradictions, you may gain a more nuanced view.
How is this a contradiction? He would be a hypocrite if he moved to Singapore and only stayed in a community of English speakers who didn't bother integrating, but there is no indication he does this.
I feel that this sort of attitude doesn't exactly encourage immigrants outside of their "pockets". Angry attitudes only beget more of the same. When all they read/hear about is about how people don't want them around, they're hardly motivated to get out and talk to people. They'd be scared and retreat.
Often, when the next generation have attended school amongst locals, they maintain some of their customs but assimilate further. My maternal grandparents came to Australia by boat. They spoke heavily-accented English at best, after 40 years here. My mother could speak fluently in their native tongue, but speaks predominantly in English, as do all of her children. You wouldn't pick any of us as anything but locals.
It strikes me as odd that you'd consider Auckland to be "disgusting" due to pockets of Indian and Chinese, yet move to Singapore and enjoy the melting pot of cultures there. Some of these things take decades to develop.
Look at the waves arriving in Australia - Europeans, then Asians, Africans, Middle East, etc. With time, each group gradually folds into the mix. The old lady irked by a woman in a burqa would hardly notice a second-generation European speaking without an accent. Yet at every stage, there has been pushback - Asian Invasion! and the like.
Often, when the next generation have attended school amongst locals, they maintain some of their customs but assimilate further. My maternal grandparents came to Australia by boat. They spoke heavily-accented English at best, after 40 years here. My mother could speak fluently in their native tongue, but speaks predominantly in English, as do all of her children. You wouldn't pick any of us as anything but locals.
It strikes me as odd that you'd consider Auckland to be "disgusting" due to pockets of Indian and Chinese, yet move to Singapore and enjoy the melting pot of cultures there. Some of these things take decades to develop.
Look at the waves arriving in Australia - Europeans, then Asians, Africans, Middle East, etc. With time, each group gradually folds into the mix. The old lady irked by a woman in a burqa would hardly notice a second-generation European speaking without an accent. Yet at every stage, there has been pushback - Asian Invasion! and the like.
I also moved from a country of which I was the majority race in which I have a very small minority (less than 5%). It is shameful how many people of my race fail to integrate or to learn the native language and remain isolated in their own communities. Immigrants must be integrate into and enrich native culture, not create their own isolated communities.
For someone complaining about Chinese and Indian people not learning English, Singapore seems a very odd choice. Its official languages include Mandarin and Tamil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore).
I'm currently learning mandarin and traditional Chinese. But I also try to experience the local experience.
Much like the US, complaints about immigrants who "refuse to integrate" into the pre-existing society, don't learn the language, are less welcome to people already there...
...ring very, very, very hollow given the history of how English-speaking peoples arrived in and gained control of the territory. If it was right for those English-speaking settlers to move in as they did, I don't see any grounds for you to condemn Chinese-speaking settlers, or settlers who speak any other language in preference to English.
...ring very, very, very hollow given the history of how English-speaking peoples arrived in and gained control of the territory. If it was right for those English-speaking settlers to move in as they did, I don't see any grounds for you to condemn Chinese-speaking settlers, or settlers who speak any other language in preference to English.
Perhaps those complaints are made because the current locals do not want to end up like the Native Americans or the Moriori.
Not to diminish you point, but more to express the pain: driving the housing prices is still very mean of them though.
I never understood how this argument isn't pure xenophobia. House prices are set by both the buyers and the sellers. foreign buyers try to push them _down_, not up. It's the sellers (typically locals) who try to get higher prices. If you had to blame anyone, blame the granny who sells her house to move into a fancy rest home. But really, if you can't afford to live in Auckland, then you're not contributing enough to the economy to deserve it. Go move to a smaller town where your contributions match the cost of supporting your life.
Houses across the country are expensive, even in little nowhere towns. Land is sometimes cheap but houses aren't. That's not immigrants doing it, it's the builders and their high wages.
Outside of Auckland, I'd say the problem is more to do with a generation of arrogant local kids growing up thinking they're better than a tradesman and they should get a BA in sociology instead.
Houses across the country are expensive, even in little nowhere towns. Land is sometimes cheap but houses aren't. That's not immigrants doing it, it's the builders and their high wages.
Outside of Auckland, I'd say the problem is more to do with a generation of arrogant local kids growing up thinking they're better than a tradesman and they should get a BA in sociology instead.
They aren't making any more land. New Zealand has very lax laws regarding property ownership compared to many countries. No capital gains tax. Very limited ownership restrictions.
To pick on a common scapegoat, Chinese citizens can buy a house in New Zealand, so as their economy improves it drives our housing prices up (same level of supply, greater demand), but I can not buy in theirs.
I think it probably only has a small impact on housing prices (a much bigger problem is the political impossibility of any measure that drops housing prices) but I don't think you can say it has none.
I would personally be in favour of introducing a capital gains tax (but, as a renter, I would say that).
To pick on a common scapegoat, Chinese citizens can buy a house in New Zealand, so as their economy improves it drives our housing prices up (same level of supply, greater demand), but I can not buy in theirs.
I think it probably only has a small impact on housing prices (a much bigger problem is the political impossibility of any measure that drops housing prices) but I don't think you can say it has none.
I would personally be in favour of introducing a capital gains tax (but, as a renter, I would say that).
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Other than America, I'm unaware of any country who invades other countries to take over.
My parents moved out of Auckland 3 years ago because they no longer feel welcome.
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As an immigrant yourself do you feel that you are a net benefit or detriment to Singapore?
> There are large pockets of Indian and Chinese people who refuse to integrate into society. Refusing to learn English and creating places with their own language and being less welcome to outsiders.
As another New Zealander, I could say the same but replacing "Indian and Chinese" with "Maori and Samoan". I still respect that their right to live there is no less than mine.
As another New Zealander, I could say the same but replacing "Indian and Chinese" with "Maori and Samoan". I still respect that their right to live there is no less than mine.
Outside of Auckland it's less like that tho. My family lives in dargaville and have Maori and islander Neighbours who are Super Friendly and helpful. My parents love them.
Aren't Maori native to NZ? If anything the assimilation by this definition should be the other way round. I'm all for assimilation, btw
I Guess you have to live in NZ to really understand. In Auckland, a lot of Maoris treat everyone like crap. Outside of Auckland they are Super nice people.
Very rose tinted view.
I don't know where people get this meme of "do the job native people don't want to do". If a chain store that sells asian food (say, St. Pierres Sushi) only seems to have Asians (a minority) working for them, what's the more likely scenario? That there are no non-Asians willing to serve food for minimum wage, or that the people hiring are showing overwhelming discrimination and choosing people who look like them?
Illegally underpaid work in the immigrant community is huge in NZ. I don't think I've ever heard of an Asian restaurant or supermarket that actually paid minimum wage. An Asian friend of mine actually once tried to report an employee for hiring people illegally and not paying minimum wage. They told her that they needed the employers passport number. Without that, they'd do nothing. What was my friend supposed to do, steal it!? Hiring people illegally is simply not enforced.
Discrimination against non-Asians is prevalent too - it's very normal to see "prefer Asian" written in English on advertisements for flatmates, no one blinks an eye anymore. I distinctly recall trying to find a room, talking to a friendly guy who spoke fluent English with an NZ accent, and then having him ask me if I was Asian or not. Afterwards I got a gutless text with an excuse to save face.
I'll never forget the two days I attended Polyfest - a big 'multicultural' (ie, anything not European) event where school kids gave performances. I remember struggling to find a group of school kids walking around where the members had different skin colours. It was the exception rather than the rule. I was later informed by security guards that "the Samoans" had gotten into a fight with "the Indians". Wonderful.
The fact of the matter is where large enough groups of immigrants congregate there will be zero pressure for them to integrate. They will interact with their own, hire their own (ignoring local minimum wage laws), speak their own languages and live in their own bubbles. If that's what multiculturalism is - different groups of people with very little contact with each other sharing the same land - then count me (and my family) out of it.
PS: Also ignoring the practical matter that NZs population growth is developing-world high, primary fueled by high immigration. You might argue it's still a sparsely populated country, but the fact remains that once your skilled labour force is high-income, infrastructure simply cannot keep up with demand because it's too expensive. Not to mention the effect it has on house prices.
I don't know where people get this meme of "do the job native people don't want to do". If a chain store that sells asian food (say, St. Pierres Sushi) only seems to have Asians (a minority) working for them, what's the more likely scenario? That there are no non-Asians willing to serve food for minimum wage, or that the people hiring are showing overwhelming discrimination and choosing people who look like them?
Illegally underpaid work in the immigrant community is huge in NZ. I don't think I've ever heard of an Asian restaurant or supermarket that actually paid minimum wage. An Asian friend of mine actually once tried to report an employee for hiring people illegally and not paying minimum wage. They told her that they needed the employers passport number. Without that, they'd do nothing. What was my friend supposed to do, steal it!? Hiring people illegally is simply not enforced.
Discrimination against non-Asians is prevalent too - it's very normal to see "prefer Asian" written in English on advertisements for flatmates, no one blinks an eye anymore. I distinctly recall trying to find a room, talking to a friendly guy who spoke fluent English with an NZ accent, and then having him ask me if I was Asian or not. Afterwards I got a gutless text with an excuse to save face.
I'll never forget the two days I attended Polyfest - a big 'multicultural' (ie, anything not European) event where school kids gave performances. I remember struggling to find a group of school kids walking around where the members had different skin colours. It was the exception rather than the rule. I was later informed by security guards that "the Samoans" had gotten into a fight with "the Indians". Wonderful.
The fact of the matter is where large enough groups of immigrants congregate there will be zero pressure for them to integrate. They will interact with their own, hire their own (ignoring local minimum wage laws), speak their own languages and live in their own bubbles. If that's what multiculturalism is - different groups of people with very little contact with each other sharing the same land - then count me (and my family) out of it.
PS: Also ignoring the practical matter that NZs population growth is developing-world high, primary fueled by high immigration. You might argue it's still a sparsely populated country, but the fact remains that once your skilled labour force is high-income, infrastructure simply cannot keep up with demand because it's too expensive. Not to mention the effect it has on house prices.
> The fact of the matter is where large enough groups of immigrants congregate there will be zero pressure for them to integrate. They will interact with their own, hire their own (ignoring local minimum wage laws), speak their own languages and live in their own bubbles.
Why shouldn't free people in a free country be able to live that way if they want to (aside from ignoring minimum wage laws)?
After all, the whites in New Zealand have been living among themselves, interacting with their own, and speaking their own language since they got there. Did the Maori ever demand that the whites speak their language and live among them according to their customs?
Why shouldn't free people in a free country be able to live that way if they want to (aside from ignoring minimum wage laws)?
After all, the whites in New Zealand have been living among themselves, interacting with their own, and speaking their own language since they got there. Did the Maori ever demand that the whites speak their language and live among them according to their customs?
Ah, a professor of the "two wrongs make a right!" school of human cultural interaction. Shall we just go on displacing each other again and again in human history, and never again form stable societies?
Have you talked to many Chinese people about how they view Maori, btw?
Have you talked to many Chinese people about how they view Maori, btw?
> Why shouldn't free people in a free country be able to live that way if they want to (aside from ignoring minimum wage laws)?
Why should free people in a free country allow people to immigrate to their own ghetto's?
Why should free people in a free country allow people to immigrate to their own ghetto's?
In regards to housing pricing, the problem here isn't immigration. It's the retarded laws which allow foreigners to buy property and own land without ever having visited the country let alone living there to begin with.
I'm all for property to limited to permanent residents and citizens, and a cap on the number of properties purchased to prevent buying up many properties.
For what it's worth I left New Zealand 11 years ago. My family still lives there, I go back to visit every now and then, but I have no desire to ever move back. Auckland to me is a disgusting place.
I live in Singapore now.