New Distros Coming to Bash/WSL via Windows Store(blogs.msdn.microsoft.com)
blogs.msdn.microsoft.com
New Distros Coming to Bash/WSL via Windows Store
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/05/11/new-distros-coming-to-bashwsl-via-windows-store/
253 comments
I use zsh with Hyper (https://hyper.is/) using "atom-dark" (https://www.npmjs.com/package/hyperterm-atom-dark) theme and it's quite decent sans the hideous text background colors:
http://i.imgur.com/l4Oi2up.png
http://i.imgur.com/l4Oi2up.png
Woah it uses 250MB of space when installed, this really surprised me, even for a js app. I like the terminal though.
Same here - it works great in Hyper and is really usable.
I use it with ConEmu and I like my colors... Everything is configurable.
http://i.imgur.com/BHDxdOJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/BHDxdOJ.png
Can you run things like nano & stop and navigate around with arrow keys?
Haven't tried that specifically but I've used tmux and vi quite successfully, including mouse support.
As long as you start ConEmu with "-run {bash}", everything works very well, yes.
Thanks, I had trouble with arrow keys working when I tried it a while back but I'll give it another go with the "-run {bash}" option. And the Mac autocorrected "htop" to stop.
Nice! Was that hard to set up?
I had to test a couple of variations before being happy because the same colors are used in all types of terminal (I use regular cmd and Bash). Sometimes one color is great in one type of terminal but is clashing with another color, for a particular use case, in the other terminal!
http://i.imgur.com/9Dx79vq.png
(By the way, there is a color picker when you click a color)
http://i.imgur.com/9Dx79vq.png
(By the way, there is a color picker when you click a color)
>Sometimes one color is great in one type of terminal but is clashing with another color, for a particular use case, in the other terminal!
Fortunately there is an "app distinct" option in the settings. You can pick different color profiles for different programs.
Fortunately there is an "app distinct" option in the settings. You can pick different color profiles for different programs.
I didn't know that, thanks!
ConEmu with Bash/WSL has not worked out for me. I came across way too many incompatibilities, and weird behaviour. Some of these are documented in (1). That said, ConEMU was never really designed to support UNIX/VT100 terminal environments from the start. Its more of a cmd.exe replacement.
Instead, I've got a pretty good setup using Xming (2), a native win32 X server implementation.
In Bash/WSL, I set the DISPLAY variable appropriately and launch my terminal emulator of choice, as well as Emacs.
This setup has worked out to be very fast and stable for me.
1. http://conemu.github.io/en/CygwinMsys.html 2. http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/
Instead, I've got a pretty good setup using Xming (2), a native win32 X server implementation.
In Bash/WSL, I set the DISPLAY variable appropriately and launch my terminal emulator of choice, as well as Emacs.
This setup has worked out to be very fast and stable for me.
1. http://conemu.github.io/en/CygwinMsys.html 2. http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/
I had some trouble too and tried some complicated setup with wslbridge and other stuff I don't even remember. But in the end I got it easily working by configuring this simple task in ConEmu (everything is working, including arrow keys):
%windir%\system32\bash.exe -c "cd ~ && bash"
If you want the nice Ubuntu icon, add this as task parameter:
-icon "%USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\lxss\bash.ico"
You can then use the ConEmu theme of your choice and the colors are far more readable than with the default console. See default theme for instance:
https://lut.im/fyFmIT9zwj/IjbmI5FsOHq2ik6z.png
%windir%\system32\bash.exe -c "cd ~ && bash"
If you want the nice Ubuntu icon, add this as task parameter:
-icon "%USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\lxss\bash.ico"
You can then use the ConEmu theme of your choice and the colors are far more readable than with the default console. See default theme for instance:
https://lut.im/fyFmIT9zwj/IjbmI5FsOHq2ik6z.png
Ditto, although I find VcXsrv to be a bit faster than XMing. No scientific testing, though ;-)
They're going to need to change that window icon. When WSL meant Ubuntu it made sense. Now that it's becoming distro agnostic, it needs a more universal representation. Bring on the penguins.
That's a prerelease bug. It's being fixed :)
Since its 'bash on Windows' something modern and bash-ish would be lovely.
Maybe the bash logo:
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=chakra&q=bash+logo&yeg=B&ia=images...
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=chakra&q=bash+logo&yeg=B&ia=images...
... Perhaps the icon should correlated directly with the distro that you're running?
I had a feeling this was the direction you were going in based on the ASCII logos in the screenshot. For the major distros this should work well, but a generic icon would still be handy for the smaller ones (assuming they can be used at all).
My current hack is to install an X client and forward a single gnome-terminal window. With a bit of scripting it's pretty seamless.
For all of X's warts, its networking protocol works just as intended for this kind of use case.
For all of X's warts, its networking protocol works just as intended for this kind of use case.
I wonder if it's going to be possible to do the same with Wayland.
The font rendering is great.
https://i.imgur.com/VVtLVfs.png
https://i.imgur.com/VVtLVfs.png
How'd you get that setup?
EDIT: ah just saw that you have your .bashrc in that image, thanks!
EDIT: ah just saw that you have your .bashrc in that image, thanks!
wsltty works alright. There's room for improvement for sure.
https://github.com/mintty/wsltty
https://github.com/mintty/wsltty
That's what I use too. Looks great with Fira Code.
If you prefer not to install an external program (e.g. wsltty), this gist https://gist.github.com/P4/4245793 has some registry presets for prettifying the built in console.
This is what mine looks like:
http://imgur.com/Qj0fysB
It's all about changing the color palette of the console window, which is kinda a pain, but well worth it.
I use tmux super heavily, so a nice .tmux conf pays off.
It's all about changing the color palette of the console window, which is kinda a pain, but well worth it.
I use tmux super heavily, so a nice .tmux conf pays off.
I wrote a simple console program to easily configure hundreds of different color schemes for your WSL terminal: https://commentout.net/wsl-colors.html
You can use Conemu, ConsoleZ or a number of other console applications for Windows with it.
As a network engineer it's almost useless to me, ping, traceroute, mtr etc don't work. Neither does ssh tunneling. No ssh server.
Still using Cygwin for those reasons.
As a network engineer it's almost useless to me, ping, traceroute, mtr etc don't work. Neither does ssh tunneling. No ssh server.
Still using Cygwin for those reasons.
> ping, traceroute, mtr etc don't work. Neither does ssh tunneling. No ssh server.
These things work, as long as you are not under a firewall. The problem is that currently it doesn't expose anything to whitelist if you do use a firewall, but hopefully they'll sort this out eventually.
These things work, as long as you are not under a firewall. The problem is that currently it doesn't expose anything to whitelist if you do use a firewall, but hopefully they'll sort this out eventually.
Most of these problems have been fixed as of the January Creators Update for Windows 10.
SSH server is still iffy, because Windows 10 comes with an SSH server (not OpenSSH), which you'll have to disable. It was very weird to try to SSH into WSL and get a cmd.exe prompt.
Also, once you install opensshd with apt, the server is only active while its terminal window is open (since closing the terminal window kills the WSL init process).
SSH server is still iffy, because Windows 10 comes with an SSH server (not OpenSSH), which you'll have to disable. It was very weird to try to SSH into WSL and get a cmd.exe prompt.
Also, once you install opensshd with apt, the server is only active while its terminal window is open (since closing the terminal window kills the WSL init process).
Thanks... I had heard improvements were on the way, thought it was next release and not crestors.
Good tip on disabling Windows own ssh server too, sounds like I need to revisit this stuff see can I get it working again!
Good tip on disabling Windows own ssh server too, sounds like I need to revisit this stuff see can I get it working again!
You can run it in another terminal than the standard cmd. I've got mine running through cmder (http://cmder.net/) which is just a preconfigured ConEmu (https://conemu.github.io/) with some additional stuff out of the box.
ConEmu's defaults are pretty ugly, too, but with some tweaking you can get a good UI out of it. As another tip, Alt+Enter will maximize ConEmu to full-screen without any window chrome at all.
It was a bit of a chicken and egg problem: there was no incentive to have a decent terminal since+because there was no decent shell+platform. IOW the command line was a rudimentary tool, an artefact from the past, not a central piece of the experience. PowerShell barely moved the dial, but now that there's a trend towards the Unix experience, that may very well bootstrap some more glorious CLI days on Windows, which may even benefit PowerShell in some way.
WSL running fish in mintty (https://mintty.github.io/)
Shell - http://imgur.com/CeotBpF Neovim - http://imgur.com/HI3u2mA
Shell - http://imgur.com/CeotBpF Neovim - http://imgur.com/HI3u2mA
You can install xrdp and some lightweight DE like Xfce, and then just RDP into your Linux desktop. Here's Xfce (and its terminal) running inside an RDP session on Win10:
http://i.imgur.com/Z5mRLIs.png
http://i.imgur.com/Z5mRLIs.png
I installed bash-it. Works well and most of the themes seem to work ok.
Try MobaXTerm ( http://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ ). Also covers ssh (instead of putty) and has an X server.
You can run a Windows X server, then run whatever X-based programs (including terminals) you want on the Linux side and forward the display to the Windows X Server.
"Old" screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/luCEh2w.png
ConEmu
ConEmu
I managed to run it under cmder, and from there it all went nicely; installed fish and other stuff no issues.
I have the same issue. Thought I was missing something. Luminous green and dark blue. :(
This is the dialog box you want:
http://imgur.com/pwzwjZu
Lets you actually make things readable - even pretty if you care to.
http://imgur.com/pwzwjZu
Lets you actually make things readable - even pretty if you care to.
I never understood that dialog. Like the first 4 radio buttons seem to indicate there are only 4 values you can change, but then there's like 15 colored boxes in a horizontal line under that? I don't get it.
The 16 colors are the color table - these are the actual colors you want to change.
The selected box (of the 16) has it's values displayed on the right. Change those numbers to change the color's value.
The radio buttons select which of the 16 colors is the "default" for that setting. So you probably want to leave "Screen background" on black (the first color table entry) and you'd likely want to move "Screen Text" to white, the 16th entry. The popup colors are only really relevant for cmd.exe.
Yes, we're aware that dialog is garbage. I hate it to death. It's high on the backlog.
The selected box (of the 16) has it's values displayed on the right. Change those numbers to change the color's value.
The radio buttons select which of the 16 colors is the "default" for that setting. So you probably want to leave "Screen background" on black (the first color table entry) and you'd likely want to move "Screen Text" to white, the 16th entry. The popup colors are only really relevant for cmd.exe.
Yes, we're aware that dialog is garbage. I hate it to death. It's high on the backlog.
The primary reason I even looked at a Mac, way back in the MacOS 10.2 days, was because there is a Unix underneath the pretty interface. I bought my first Mac and never looked back.
Stuff like this is making me look at Windows machines again.
Stuff like this is making me look at Windows machines again.
I'm betting this is the real end-goal of WSL. MacBooks were once expensive, but high-quality, grab-and-go unixy development machines. Now, they're mostly just expensive.
When WSL matures, any commodity laptop will be a cheap, decent quality, grab-and-go unixy dev machine. It'll probably be easier and more reliable than installing Ubuntu directly! At that point, web and server devs will migrate en mass from Mac to Windows.
Then they will discover Clang for Windows and that dev tools for Windows in general are actually pretty nice. And, since they are already running their server code on WSL, it becomes much easier and more interesting to get it running in Windows directly. Bang! Huge uptick in open-source server development on Windows.
When WSL matures, any commodity laptop will be a cheap, decent quality, grab-and-go unixy dev machine. It'll probably be easier and more reliable than installing Ubuntu directly! At that point, web and server devs will migrate en mass from Mac to Windows.
Then they will discover Clang for Windows and that dev tools for Windows in general are actually pretty nice. And, since they are already running their server code on WSL, it becomes much easier and more interesting to get it running in Windows directly. Bang! Huge uptick in open-source server development on Windows.
You can already target Linux directly from Visual Studio using either WSL or a Linux machine as the target. It uses the compiler on the Linux machine. Details here: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/04/11/linux-dev...
And, of course, VS offers Android and iOS targeting in both C++ and .NET. The C++ info is here: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/04/18/android-a...
And, of course, VS offers Android and iOS targeting in both C++ and .NET. The C++ info is here: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/04/18/android-a...
These are still too new and have random problems associated with them:
No partial compilation if you target Linux. Everything has to be sshed over every time and compiled from scratch.
If you have a linker error,it's not displayed right away, you have to dig through files. These are painful to resolve.
Lots of other problems too, not the least of if you need high performance disk access, you can forget about WSL.
Don't get me started on debugging through rgdb + vs.
After our evaluation, we simply got Linux machines and VMs (under Windows) for development.
WSL and remote Linux for VS are a great idea, but it looks like they need few patch rounds to be Enterprise ready.
No partial compilation if you target Linux. Everything has to be sshed over every time and compiled from scratch.
If you have a linker error,it's not displayed right away, you have to dig through files. These are painful to resolve.
Lots of other problems too, not the least of if you need high performance disk access, you can forget about WSL.
Don't get me started on debugging through rgdb + vs.
After our evaluation, we simply got Linux machines and VMs (under Windows) for development.
WSL and remote Linux for VS are a great idea, but it looks like they need few patch rounds to be Enterprise ready.
Great feedback, thank you! Linux targeting isn't my area, but I know the guy who owns it would love to chat with you. If you want to help us make this better, would you mind sending me an email at apardoe @ youknowthecompany.com? I totally understand if it's not worth your time. But thank you regardless!
> When WSL matures, any commodity laptop will be a cheap, decent quality, grab-and-go unixy dev machine
Well, you know, they _already_ are. We don't have to wait for anything. And even cheaper, if you can avoid paying the windows tax ;)
Well, you know, they _already_ are. We don't have to wait for anything. And even cheaper, if you can avoid paying the windows tax ;)
Yeah, do we really want to run an open garbage fire of an OS that is known as Windows 10 for a daily driver? I know I'd get murdery if I lost all my hot corners, multi-desktop, etc cause that is what makes me productive. Other people who don't like Gnome 3 take pleasure in using i3 or AwesomeWM, which both are major steps up over Win10's UI.
At this point, the Windows platform is a rotting cesspool, the devs focused on it know its growth has stopped (but often are clueless about how to move forward), package management is not a thing, and Microsoft has added so many anti-features that it is a pain in the ass to live with.
At this point, the Windows platform is a rotting cesspool, the devs focused on it know its growth has stopped (but often are clueless about how to move forward), package management is not a thing, and Microsoft has added so many anti-features that it is a pain in the ass to live with.
Multiple desktops are built in. If you spent any time on the platform you'd understand that Windows under Satya Nadella is good stuff. He is the anti-Ballmer.
What isn't a rotting cesspool in your opinion? iOS or Android?
Debian/Arch are both fairly lively, if you want something battle hardend you'll use SLES like Walmart, Kroger, Fred Meyers, Vons, <Fill in major retailer> uses. The desktop is in stasis though, and iOS as a platform is unlikely to grow massively over the next few years.
Android is frankly another rotting cesspool of Google's making. Where Microsoft & Apple are able to provide years of updates to every model of phone their software runs on (with MS literally working with the same vendors as Google), Google has successfully ensured that outside of Nexus devices, updates occur rarely if ever.
Android is frankly another rotting cesspool of Google's making. Where Microsoft & Apple are able to provide years of updates to every model of phone their software runs on (with MS literally working with the same vendors as Google), Google has successfully ensured that outside of Nexus devices, updates occur rarely if ever.
Windows 10 has multi-desktop support baked in. They keyboard shortcuts could be made better, but they're there too.
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I just set up a cheap Windows 10 laptop I bought for my mom. It was the first time I got in touch with Windows again since the XP days. Can't say I'm too intrigued, imho the UI is lacking in so many points. I couldn't figure out how to get rid of that Cortana-thing in the taskbar, every window is littered with ribbons, list goes on and on and on … I don't see why I would go for Windows + WSL when I can just slap a distro of choice on it?
While I wish Apple got its shit together, I have 0 incentive to move to Windows as a developer. I'd have to find replacements for a lot of small utility apps I take for granted on OS X, and I'd have to cope with the stupid UI Windows shoves down my throat.
While I wish Apple got its shit together, I have 0 incentive to move to Windows as a developer. I'd have to find replacements for a lot of small utility apps I take for granted on OS X, and I'd have to cope with the stupid UI Windows shoves down my throat.
They're getting rid on the ribbon in Explorer, you can launch it with an in-beta modern UI since last month's Windows update. They'll probably complete it and make it official in the next big one.
Huh? MacBooks are unlikely to disappear, companies love how slowly they depreciate (and are easily sellable), while it is by far the most optimized unix system out there. Pound for pound, a MacBook will last longer while doing more than a Windows or Linux laptop, despite Microsoft's and Linus's efforts to rectify this.
Why would anyone pick Windows over Debian for development if their target is a Linux boxen in a server farm somewhere? The tooling is third rate, the WSL (which is a horrible name btw) has thousands of bugs by Microsoft's own admission, and this is after years of MS laboring to get WSL into its current state.
I just don't see why you'd choose a platform that does pants on head retarded shit like making wget open IE 11 rather than downloading the file at a given URL. This isn't rocket science here, I know all the MS people across the water in Redmond & Bellevue can fix this without much work, but apparently worse than non-existent is the best MS can do.
Why would anyone pick Windows over Debian for development if their target is a Linux boxen in a server farm somewhere? The tooling is third rate, the WSL (which is a horrible name btw) has thousands of bugs by Microsoft's own admission, and this is after years of MS laboring to get WSL into its current state.
I just don't see why you'd choose a platform that does pants on head retarded shit like making wget open IE 11 rather than downloading the file at a given URL. This isn't rocket science here, I know all the MS people across the water in Redmond & Bellevue can fix this without much work, but apparently worse than non-existent is the best MS can do.
> Pound for pound, a MacBook will last longer while doing more than a Windows or Linux laptop, despite Microsoft's and Linus's efforts to rectify this.
There is no "Windows or linux laptop". There is a bunch of different brands with varying degree of quality. Macbook lasting more than a dell or an acer, maybe. More than a thinkpad or a surface ? Much less so.
And of course you forget about the desktops...Companies are still using a non negligible amount of those.
> Why would anyone pick Windows over Debian for development if their target is a Linux boxen in a server farm somewhere?
For the same reason people use a macbook, or virtualize linux (vmware) instead of native installation : Better hardware support, better battery life, better support from your enterprise IT etc... etc...
> The tooling is third rate, the WSL (which is a horrible name btw) has thousands of bugs by Microsoft's own admission, and this is after years of MS laboring to get WSL into its current state.
The thing was available about a years ago, why so much hate? I played with it and to be honest, as developer it already has 90 % of everything i need...
For all their fault and mistakes , one thing that the new Microsoft does really well is to adapt to the new development realities and propose simple and pragmatic solution : VS code , typescripts and now WSL...
There is no "Windows or linux laptop". There is a bunch of different brands with varying degree of quality. Macbook lasting more than a dell or an acer, maybe. More than a thinkpad or a surface ? Much less so.
And of course you forget about the desktops...Companies are still using a non negligible amount of those.
> Why would anyone pick Windows over Debian for development if their target is a Linux boxen in a server farm somewhere?
For the same reason people use a macbook, or virtualize linux (vmware) instead of native installation : Better hardware support, better battery life, better support from your enterprise IT etc... etc...
> The tooling is third rate, the WSL (which is a horrible name btw) has thousands of bugs by Microsoft's own admission, and this is after years of MS laboring to get WSL into its current state.
The thing was available about a years ago, why so much hate? I played with it and to be honest, as developer it already has 90 % of everything i need...
For all their fault and mistakes , one thing that the new Microsoft does really well is to adapt to the new development realities and propose simple and pragmatic solution : VS code , typescripts and now WSL...
> Pound for pound, a MacBook will last longer while doing more than a Windows or Linux laptop, despite Microsoft's and Linus's efforts to rectify this.
The repairable/upgradable thinkpads are probably better in this regard
The repairable/upgradable thinkpads are probably better in this regard
Why would you want to repair/upgrade (and so pay the salaries of hardware IT staff) when you could get business-leased commodity computers with scheduled "upgrades" by return-for-replacement, for the same cost?
I want to repair and upgrade my computer. I suspect there are many people like me that would like the option to upgrade components on my laptop as well. I used to be able to do that with a MBP (2012-ish), now I can't...
The WSL is compelling and to be honest, one of the main reasons I switched to OSX was the command line. Now, I can have a command line and not have to run VM's for 3d stuff, games, and more. Pretty compelling...
The WSL is compelling and to be honest, one of the main reasons I switched to OSX was the command line. Now, I can have a command line and not have to run VM's for 3d stuff, games, and more. Pretty compelling...
That's a personal desire. The context here was corporate buying and depreciation. Why would a corporation want to repair its computers, any more than it would want to repair e.g. its office furniture?
Because swapping a burned out power supply is 5min job while waiting for a [company] technician to bring that replacement computer can be a day+ several others to get the original back?
It boils down to how much the downtime costs. "Do it all in the Cloud" simply doesn't apply across the board.
It boils down to how much the downtime costs. "Do it all in the Cloud" simply doesn't apply across the board.
Why wait? In most companies I've worked at (a few startups; IBM), if your computer isn't working, they take your current one and then hand you a spare out of a pile they have in a closet. The original gets sent for replacement, but you're already at your desk re-doing the documented onboarding process on the new machine.
How many large corporations buy macs for everyone in the company? Serious question... I have no idea. My hunch says; Not many.
Indeed. I've seen Macs as an option, and then you sort of get "developers can get Macs, VPs can get them, but others can't" as the TCO is - apparently - higher, and, let's not forget that, remote manageability is way harder than with Windows, which has stuff like group policies, AD integration, etcetera, all built in (the Macs I used at a previous big corp employer had some terribly hack-ish layered software to get to almost the same level).
With Win10 and WSL (which I've been actively testdriving on my personal hardware) I'd be totally fine to get a Lenovo from BigCorpEmployer. For private use, I won't buy any MBPs anymore anyway for the same reason.
With Win10 and WSL (which I've been actively testdriving on my personal hardware) I'd be totally fine to get a Lenovo from BigCorpEmployer. For private use, I won't buy any MBPs anymore anyway for the same reason.
Because Apple isn't immune to screwing up the 'commodity' and plenty of shops are holding off on the new mbp because of the unless touch bar, degraded keyboard, and poor choice of ports. This is a great time for MS to push for this audience and things like WSL are great foundations.
I like them better (and own multiple) but I do have to admit that MacBooks really do more with less. Still, I don't own one or plan to buy a MBP.
I did a wget -r -l3 in WSL just yesterday to download xconq documentation, worked perfectly.
i'm saying this now; POSIX will never be a first class citizen on windows - we might get shims in /proc and /dev, but windows will never run from POSIX. as long as Win32 exists (and lets face it, that's not going away for a long time), we're basically stuck with running a docker container with linux on it in windows.
and that might be all you need. but for many *nix people, this is no where near enough.
and that might be all you need. but for many *nix people, this is no where near enough.
Why would you want this, when the NT kernel is so much better architected than any extant Unix except for perhaps Solaris?
POSIX is a standard.
Windows has yet to provide a consistent way how to obtain the OS version across releases. Then we can maybe talk about standardizing apps communications.
Windows has yet to provide a consistent way how to obtain the OS version across releases. Then we can maybe talk about standardizing apps communications.
This is not a container implementation. Microsoft transcoded Linux system calls to Windows kernel calls. It runs efficiently and natively.
That is: as efficient as possible on top of the windows process model. A process fork is still a magnitude slower and more expensive than on Linux. It is however a massive improvement over Cygwin, but it's still very noticeable when for example running more complex shell-scripts.
It's as native as can be, without being native. It's some amazing computational acrobatics, and it appears to be quite usable for development.
If anyone trusts microsoft right now after the past year or two worth of things we've learned I highly doubt their dedication to a free and open source vision of the future.
I actually have a hard time beleiving some of these comments are even organic... (web and server devs are going to migrate to windows!). What world do these people live in? It's like people live in fantasy land and have forgotten the 90's truth of MS.
Embrace. Extend.
Extinguish.
RMS was and is right. Either the user controls the program or the program controls the user. Microsoft has shown they are only interested in controlling the user, and not in giving the user control.
I say this as a senior sysadmin who has dealt with every aspect of their OS's in production for a long time, and I'm fed up with it. Honestly I think Win8/10 was the final straw for me, for what it's worth.
I've since moved completely off windows to gnu+linux, despite the rough points such as gaming. It's been a freeing experience I wish more people had the guts to be a part of. I'm also heavily considering refusing to support windows systems in general, something I think we should all consider.
I actually have a hard time beleiving some of these comments are even organic... (web and server devs are going to migrate to windows!). What world do these people live in? It's like people live in fantasy land and have forgotten the 90's truth of MS.
Embrace. Extend.
Extinguish.
RMS was and is right. Either the user controls the program or the program controls the user. Microsoft has shown they are only interested in controlling the user, and not in giving the user control.
I say this as a senior sysadmin who has dealt with every aspect of their OS's in production for a long time, and I'm fed up with it. Honestly I think Win8/10 was the final straw for me, for what it's worth.
I've since moved completely off windows to gnu+linux, despite the rough points such as gaming. It's been a freeing experience I wish more people had the guts to be a part of. I'm also heavily considering refusing to support windows systems in general, something I think we should all consider.
Isn't it a bit ironic, given your concern with 90s-era Microsoft practices...
...that your comment is basically just FUD?
I'm not saying your wrong! But your comment is, clearly, intended to make people feel fear, uncertainty, and doubt about Microsoft, the Windows platform, what MS may choose to do in the future, etc. And you don't have any particular factual claims to back it up (classic FUD tactic), just an appeal to authority ("as a senior sysadmin") and some handwaving about events that took place long before most of us were actually in the workforce. I mean, I'm the oldest dev on my team, and I was a teenager when the Halloween Documents were published.
We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power? And how does WSL provide them an opening? At this point, I'm much, much more concerned about Facebook than Microsoft, and I think the onus is on MS critics to explain exactly what they fear. And no, chanting "embrace, extend, extinguish" is not an explanation.
...that your comment is basically just FUD?
I'm not saying your wrong! But your comment is, clearly, intended to make people feel fear, uncertainty, and doubt about Microsoft, the Windows platform, what MS may choose to do in the future, etc. And you don't have any particular factual claims to back it up (classic FUD tactic), just an appeal to authority ("as a senior sysadmin") and some handwaving about events that took place long before most of us were actually in the workforce. I mean, I'm the oldest dev on my team, and I was a teenager when the Halloween Documents were published.
We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power? And how does WSL provide them an opening? At this point, I'm much, much more concerned about Facebook than Microsoft, and I think the onus is on MS critics to explain exactly what they fear. And no, chanting "embrace, extend, extinguish" is not an explanation.
"given your concern with 90s-era Microsoft practices..."
We'll, I must say I preferred them actually.
- the close button on my upgrade prompts didn't mean yes.
- clippy didn't send my files keystrokes and speech online on its own
- candy crush saga equivalents didn't just install on their own
- applications that I installed weren't deleted by the OS
- the computer didn't restart on its own because of updates, closing all ssh sessions and killing processes with days of work.
- etc.
We'll, I must say I preferred them actually.
- the close button on my upgrade prompts didn't mean yes.
- clippy didn't send my files keystrokes and speech online on its own
- candy crush saga equivalents didn't just install on their own
- applications that I installed weren't deleted by the OS
- the computer didn't restart on its own because of updates, closing all ssh sessions and killing processes with days of work.
- etc.
Some of OPs comment is hyperbolic, but I think
> Microsoft has shown they are only interested in controlling the user, and not in giving the user control.
Is very well supported by their recent we'll-do-everything-possible to get Win10 on people's machines, force upgrades, forced (and ultra comprehensive, but mostly secretive until a month ago) telemetry.
> We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power?
They have spent the last year and a half abusing their power of Win7 updates to force people into Win10, which takes away the power that people had to resist the Win7->Win10 upgrade. If you missed that, we truly do live in different worlds.
> Microsoft has shown they are only interested in controlling the user, and not in giving the user control.
Is very well supported by their recent we'll-do-everything-possible to get Win10 on people's machines, force upgrades, forced (and ultra comprehensive, but mostly secretive until a month ago) telemetry.
> We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power?
They have spent the last year and a half abusing their power of Win7 updates to force people into Win10, which takes away the power that people had to resist the Win7->Win10 upgrade. If you missed that, we truly do live in different worlds.
I agree that the telemetry is very very dodgy. However, on the forced update front, I have to side with Microsoft here.
From their POV, regular and forced windows updates are the best way to ensure we don't have XP-like situations, where people just keep running out-dated software with horribly exploitable browsers. This creates a maintenance nightmare for software developers. Could you imagine running a 16 year old piece of software, refusing to upgrade to a newer-one but still expect security updates? And Windows 7 is well on it's way to become the 'next XP', it's almost 8 years old now...
From their POV, regular and forced windows updates are the best way to ensure we don't have XP-like situations, where people just keep running out-dated software with horribly exploitable browsers. This creates a maintenance nightmare for software developers. Could you imagine running a 16 year old piece of software, refusing to upgrade to a newer-one but still expect security updates? And Windows 7 is well on it's way to become the 'next XP', it's almost 8 years old now...
I might agree with you from a "public goods" perspective (but only if win10 had user control comparable to win7, and it doesn't)
However, Microsoft is in it for themselves. Not for the public good, not for the people who want to keep running their old system, not for the developers. Furthermore, whoever bought win7 was guaranteed support until 2020.
Your siding with Microsoft in 2016 is siding with "we already got the customer's money, now let's try to do the easiest thing for us rather than keep our promises; use dark patterns if we need, because it is easier to get forgiveness than permission". I am sorry, but I disagree with this attitude.
However, Microsoft is in it for themselves. Not for the public good, not for the people who want to keep running their old system, not for the developers. Furthermore, whoever bought win7 was guaranteed support until 2020.
Your siding with Microsoft in 2016 is siding with "we already got the customer's money, now let's try to do the easiest thing for us rather than keep our promises; use dark patterns if we need, because it is easier to get forgiveness than permission". I am sorry, but I disagree with this attitude.
> Isn't it a bit ironic, given your concern with 90s-era Microsoft practices that your comment is basically just FUD?
Apologies for not taking the time to sit down and list all the ways MS has been bad for the FOSS world and the user. For someone who references the halloween documents and the hn userbase in general I think most of this should be mostly obvious and not need specific hand-holding. As for your accusation of fud, fud by defnition is about false or disinformation in combination with the appeal to fear. I'm basing my comments off true information, and not using the fallacious appeal to fear but instead telling how proprietary systems do affect people.
> just an appeal to authority ("as a senior sysadmin")
A key point to the appeal to authority issue is that it isn't inherently a fallacy, and only becomes one with used in an informal fallacy, which I did not. In rhetoric establishing authority is an important (but often overvalued) aspect of argument. As a senior sysadmin, this makes my propositions more likely, but not logically certain. Not a fallacy at all.
> handwaving about events that took place long before most of us were actually in the workforce.
What does the date of these actions have to do with the issue at hand? The four principles of software freedom are still not met by MS, and that's just as relevant today as it was 20 years ago.
> We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power? And how does WSL provide them an opening?
Where do I begin? First of all, we don't really live in such a different world. Fundamental principles of software freedom have been the same since the 80's when they were first brought up, (though they have been refined somewhat). Second, not only would MS abuse their power, but they already have and do! As for what power, I don't know how you can be serious and ask such a question. Instead of ranting I will just give you a good link to read. https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html
> At this point, I'm much, much more concerned about Facebook than Microsoft
This is a logical fallacy. We aren't talking about FB. I'm concerned about it too, but to handwave away MS issues in this way is not conducive to honest intellectual conversation.
> I think the onus is on MS critics to explain exactly what they fear.
We have, for years at that. See above gnu.org link for a start.
> And how does WSL provide them an opening?
You mean other than replacing a gplv2 kernel with a closed source proprietary one?
Apologies for not taking the time to sit down and list all the ways MS has been bad for the FOSS world and the user. For someone who references the halloween documents and the hn userbase in general I think most of this should be mostly obvious and not need specific hand-holding. As for your accusation of fud, fud by defnition is about false or disinformation in combination with the appeal to fear. I'm basing my comments off true information, and not using the fallacious appeal to fear but instead telling how proprietary systems do affect people.
> just an appeal to authority ("as a senior sysadmin")
A key point to the appeal to authority issue is that it isn't inherently a fallacy, and only becomes one with used in an informal fallacy, which I did not. In rhetoric establishing authority is an important (but often overvalued) aspect of argument. As a senior sysadmin, this makes my propositions more likely, but not logically certain. Not a fallacy at all.
> handwaving about events that took place long before most of us were actually in the workforce.
What does the date of these actions have to do with the issue at hand? The four principles of software freedom are still not met by MS, and that's just as relevant today as it was 20 years ago.
> We live in a very different world. I'm not saying MS wouldn't abuse their power if they could, but you know...what power? And how does WSL provide them an opening?
Where do I begin? First of all, we don't really live in such a different world. Fundamental principles of software freedom have been the same since the 80's when they were first brought up, (though they have been refined somewhat). Second, not only would MS abuse their power, but they already have and do! As for what power, I don't know how you can be serious and ask such a question. Instead of ranting I will just give you a good link to read. https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html
> At this point, I'm much, much more concerned about Facebook than Microsoft
This is a logical fallacy. We aren't talking about FB. I'm concerned about it too, but to handwave away MS issues in this way is not conducive to honest intellectual conversation.
> I think the onus is on MS critics to explain exactly what they fear.
We have, for years at that. See above gnu.org link for a start.
> And how does WSL provide them an opening?
You mean other than replacing a gplv2 kernel with a closed source proprietary one?
> As for your accusation of fud, fud by defnition is about false or disinformation in combination with the appeal to fear.
By what definition? FUD is literally just the words "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt." Nothing about those words requires the thing being referred to to be false or disinformation.
Less pedantically, propaganda/astroturfing doesn't need to be a lie or an exaggeration or anything of the sort, to serve its purpose. You get just as much of an effect from selectively highlighting some true facts while downplaying others.
The irony the parent is referring to is that you are highlighting some facts about Microsoft [which support the story you wish to tell] while downplaying others [which do not], and so your comment serves as effective anti-Microsoft propaganda (i.e. "FUD") whether or not every statement in it is true.
> As for what power, I don't know how you can be serious and ask such a question.
Likely because—at least if they live in SV—it's almost assuredly true that almost nobody the parent knows uses Microsoft products any more. They have no cultural power, in the sense of having control of cultural influencers. They might still have a large foothold in the enterprise, but—unless there is a massive resurgence—that foothold will die exactly one generation of IT people from now, when nobody of the new generation will have bothered to learn the Windows stack.
> We have, for years at that. See above gnu.org link for a start.
You are not debating charitably here. There is a difference—and you know it—between "what you fear" in a general, ideological sense; and immediate fears of what can and is likely to happen given the current landscape.
The parent poster is asking the latter: what about the current Microsoft—without reference to history, without knowledge of history—do you fear?
By what definition? FUD is literally just the words "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt." Nothing about those words requires the thing being referred to to be false or disinformation.
Less pedantically, propaganda/astroturfing doesn't need to be a lie or an exaggeration or anything of the sort, to serve its purpose. You get just as much of an effect from selectively highlighting some true facts while downplaying others.
The irony the parent is referring to is that you are highlighting some facts about Microsoft [which support the story you wish to tell] while downplaying others [which do not], and so your comment serves as effective anti-Microsoft propaganda (i.e. "FUD") whether or not every statement in it is true.
> As for what power, I don't know how you can be serious and ask such a question.
Likely because—at least if they live in SV—it's almost assuredly true that almost nobody the parent knows uses Microsoft products any more. They have no cultural power, in the sense of having control of cultural influencers. They might still have a large foothold in the enterprise, but—unless there is a massive resurgence—that foothold will die exactly one generation of IT people from now, when nobody of the new generation will have bothered to learn the Windows stack.
> We have, for years at that. See above gnu.org link for a start.
You are not debating charitably here. There is a difference—and you know it—between "what you fear" in a general, ideological sense; and immediate fears of what can and is likely to happen given the current landscape.
The parent poster is asking the latter: what about the current Microsoft—without reference to history, without knowledge of history—do you fear?
> what about the current Microsoft—without reference to history, without knowledge of history—do you fear?
Win10 and how it was shoved hard down everyone's throat -- and how it had taken upgrade liberties away from the vast majority, while adding unstoppable telemetry.
Is 18 months too much history for a 40 year old company?
Win10 and how it was shoved hard down everyone's throat -- and how it had taken upgrade liberties away from the vast majority, while adding unstoppable telemetry.
Is 18 months too much history for a 40 year old company?
I think my provided link was extremely clear about the latter. Did you read it?
Hey your opinion is cool and all. But there are a lot of people who put a lot of hard work into this project, because we're developers too, and we think the idea of being able to run a full linux userland on top of the NT kernel is fucking cool.
This project has never been about EEE. It's not about controlling the user. It's the complete opposite. It's all about choice. I like a linux style development environment more than I like Windows style. In my free time I mostly write python applications and do webdev-y stuff, and WSL makes it really easy for me to do that.
But then again, that's just my opinion.
This project has never been about EEE. It's not about controlling the user. It's the complete opposite. It's all about choice. I like a linux style development environment more than I like Windows style. In my free time I mostly write python applications and do webdev-y stuff, and WSL makes it really easy for me to do that.
But then again, that's just my opinion.
> This project has never been about EEE. It's not about controlling the user. It's the complete opposite. It's all about choice.
well, those are the first two 'E's of the picture, if this is the case. with the latest edition of Windows 10 (S, i think?), microsoft have already prepared the stage for the third.
well, those are the first two 'E's of the picture, if this is the case. with the latest edition of Windows 10 (S, i think?), microsoft have already prepared the stage for the third.
It depends on how you look at it. The classic EEE involved e.g. "embracing" a platform like the web by writing your own browser, and then "extending" said platform by adding nonstandard features to that browser—and encouraging their adoption—to steal mindshare of the platform away from the standard itself and toward your particular implementation, giving you control over the future of the platform. At which point you could "extinguish" the platform, or at least your rivals on it.
WSL doesn't look to be "extending" Linux; in fact, it's all about providing the exact ABI Linux itself provides, and running Linux applications and operating systems without requiring any porting. There are no e.g. WSL-only syscalls exposed to Linux applications, such that Linux applications would benefit at all of being aware of WSL or targeting it. As far as the code running under WSL is concerned, it's just POSIX.
To me, that's actually a strategy strangely opposed to classical Microsoft EEE: this move commoditizes the Windows platform. There are many developers who will now see Windows as "just another POSIX", and will experience less of the unique, Windows-only parts of the platform, making them less locked into Windows as a whole.
There's no plausible end-goal here where Windows would ever be given mindshare as "the Linux," in order to start on the "extend" phase. In fact, more likely, Windows IT people will be enabled and encouraged to switch to "standard" services like nginx instead of IIS, or Postgres instead of MSSQL—at which point they'll realize they've eliminated all Windows lock-in and they're now free to leave the ecosystem!
WSL doesn't look to be "extending" Linux; in fact, it's all about providing the exact ABI Linux itself provides, and running Linux applications and operating systems without requiring any porting. There are no e.g. WSL-only syscalls exposed to Linux applications, such that Linux applications would benefit at all of being aware of WSL or targeting it. As far as the code running under WSL is concerned, it's just POSIX.
To me, that's actually a strategy strangely opposed to classical Microsoft EEE: this move commoditizes the Windows platform. There are many developers who will now see Windows as "just another POSIX", and will experience less of the unique, Windows-only parts of the platform, making them less locked into Windows as a whole.
There's no plausible end-goal here where Windows would ever be given mindshare as "the Linux," in order to start on the "extend" phase. In fact, more likely, Windows IT people will be enabled and encouraged to switch to "standard" services like nginx instead of IIS, or Postgres instead of MSSQL—at which point they'll realize they've eliminated all Windows lock-in and they're now free to leave the ecosystem!
> WSL doesn't look to be "extending" Linux
Yet.
Yet.
> being able to run a full linux userland on top of the NT kernel is fucking cool.
I could do that before with virtualbox. What kind of benefits besides slight speed increases would we see using the posix WSL?
>It's not about controlling the user. It's the complete opposite. It's all about choice.
If I create a prison for you, but then let you choose your cell, do you consider that a valid choice? That's what this is, and I know what you mean but the reality is that windows is a walled garden prison for the user.
>I like a linux style development environment more than I like Windows style.
Then why not dev on GNU+linux?
Also, notice the emphasis on GNU.
I could do that before with virtualbox. What kind of benefits besides slight speed increases would we see using the posix WSL?
>It's not about controlling the user. It's the complete opposite. It's all about choice.
If I create a prison for you, but then let you choose your cell, do you consider that a valid choice? That's what this is, and I know what you mean but the reality is that windows is a walled garden prison for the user.
>I like a linux style development environment more than I like Windows style.
Then why not dev on GNU+linux?
Also, notice the emphasis on GNU.
It's more than a speed increase. There's memory usage benefits -- because it's not a VM, you don't need to dedicate a fixed amount of memory, regardless of what you're doing. The media situation on Linux is much worse -- the audio stack resembles a jenga tower, the media apis are worse, the media drivers are worse. Windows tends to have better backward compatibility for older but still useful programs.
Furthermore, most of the useful parts of nix tend to come from places other than gnu-based APIs. Languages like python, for example, are nicer under nix, but use few if any gnu-isms. Web frameworks and applications by extensions are more *nix friendly, but it's a rare example that restricts itself to Linux only. Sticking with just gnu and/or linux ends up being much more of a burden than it's worth.
Furthermore, most of the useful parts of nix tend to come from places other than gnu-based APIs. Languages like python, for example, are nicer under nix, but use few if any gnu-isms. Web frameworks and applications by extensions are more *nix friendly, but it's a rare example that restricts itself to Linux only. Sticking with just gnu and/or linux ends up being much more of a burden than it's worth.
> Then why not dev on GNU+linux?
So I can have sleep and wifi working properly and working 3D acceleration for Apps and Games.
So I can have sleep and wifi working properly and working 3D acceleration for Apps and Games.
> So I can have sleep and wifi working properly
Those have worked for properly for as long as I've been using GNU/Linux (5 years or so).
> working 3D acceleration for Apps and Games.
I believe those also work, but I don't play games that often so I wouldn't know.
Those have worked for properly for as long as I've been using GNU/Linux (5 years or so).
> working 3D acceleration for Apps and Games.
I believe those also work, but I don't play games that often so I wouldn't know.
come on, there's no need to be disingenuous here - having the linux userspace run atop the windows kernel is much closer to docker than virtualization.
Fair point here, but in reality it changes none of my other arguments. If anything, replacing the linux kernel with the windows kernel and then giving the user half the userspace programs is still bad in my book.
I don't trust Microsoft. But they're less evil than Apple, look at Apple is doing with its locked garden (no GPL, only one browser engine allowed, no JITing except for their Javascript engine, development only on their platform, etc., etc.).
On top of this, Microsoft is a smaller fish these days. They've lost mobile, probably forever. They're behind in search, ads, cloud, etc.
So they're, maybe not toothless, but definitely less harmful than they were in the 90's.
For EEE they need to be able to extinguish. They can't extinguish Linux or OSS now, it's basically impossible.
On top of this, Microsoft is a smaller fish these days. They've lost mobile, probably forever. They're behind in search, ads, cloud, etc.
So they're, maybe not toothless, but definitely less harmful than they were in the 90's.
For EEE they need to be able to extinguish. They can't extinguish Linux or OSS now, it's basically impossible.
> I don't trust Microsoft. But they're less evil than Apple, look at Apple is doing with its locked garden (no GPL, only one browser engine allowed, no JITing except for their Javascript engine, development only on their platform, etc., etc.).
Hate to break it to you, but the Microsoft Store has the same limitations regarding browser engines as Apple's iOS App Store.
Hate to break it to you, but the Microsoft Store has the same limitations regarding browser engines as Apple's iOS App Store.
Nobody uses that and if they push it hard there's going to be major backlash, possibly even another anti-trust lawsuit.
Keep in mind they already have a conviction for anti-competitive practices. A second strike would probably be at least in the low billions, especially in the EU.
Keep in mind they already have a conviction for anti-competitive practices. A second strike would probably be at least in the low billions, especially in the EU.
Would be nicer if they would just document the bootstrap process for initializing a WSL "container" (or whatever their term is) so the community can do this on its own.
Stay tuned - This is just the beginning ;)
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/make-windows-green-par... they already have been doing it on their own
Some of these distros come with browsers and JavaScript engines that can run in the console (such as node.js, w3m, lynx, etc.).
Third-party HTML and JavaScript engines are banned in the Windows Store, so can someone explain how this uneven enforcement of their own rules is ethical?
Consider this quote[1] from a Microsoft spokesperson on May 9:
> Windows Store apps that browse the web must use HTML and JavaScript engines provided by the Windows Platform. All Windows Store content is certified by Microsoft to help ensure a quality experience and keep your devices safer.
[1]: http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-chrome-wont-be-allowed-o...
Third-party HTML and JavaScript engines are banned in the Windows Store, so can someone explain how this uneven enforcement of their own rules is ethical?
Consider this quote[1] from a Microsoft spokesperson on May 9:
> Windows Store apps that browse the web must use HTML and JavaScript engines provided by the Windows Platform. All Windows Store content is certified by Microsoft to help ensure a quality experience and keep your devices safer.
[1]: http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-chrome-wont-be-allowed-o...
Windows store or UWP apps is the gimped version of windows that no one cares about. It's about as successful as the windows phone OS that started it.
They can do this all they want but no amount of linux in windows is going to get me back to using it on my main home desktop. I have no choice at work (an all MS stack: c# and sqlserver) but yeah I'll just stick to VMs, docker, or linux on bare-metal. I get the latest kernels, the ability to run anything in the nix ecosystem without arbitrary drawbacks.
*Arbitrary is harsh, they did a lot of heavy lifting to get Windows, but it's still early and still rough imo.
*Arbitrary is harsh, they did a lot of heavy lifting to get Windows, but it's still early and still rough imo.
I didn't realize staying on the bleeding edge kernels was such a performance boost, that it's worth shying away from an entire ecosystem. It sounds a bit elitist.
Alternatively, when I use Windows now I'll get both PowerShell and a full Unix environment. For my development work so far, none of those arbitrary drawbacks have stopped WSFL from being a champ. On the plus side, I don't constantly have to edit configuration files after every update because my wireless card/window manager/etc broke.
Alternatively, when I use Windows now I'll get both PowerShell and a full Unix environment. For my development work so far, none of those arbitrary drawbacks have stopped WSFL from being a champ. On the plus side, I don't constantly have to edit configuration files after every update because my wireless card/window manager/etc broke.
For me, it's the opposite: I don't want to be on the bleeding edge of forced windows updates, so I'll run a linux system and VM an older-but-still-compatible windows system where I can keep the environment stable without worrying about security updates (due to it being in a sandbox). I realize this doesn't fit everyone's use case, but wanted to offer an additional perspective.
The win 10 experience for me has been such a disappointment between the privacy concerns and the overall UI I'd much rather not bother. To each their own, though.
For many of us, privacy doesn't exist on work machines anyways.
Oh I know. I tell myself everyday that I walk into work or log into my workstation remotely that I give up all semblance of privacy. It's in my firm's employee agreement that basically everything is tracked.
I was talking about my home workstation.
I was talking about my home workstation.
Well, there's a variety of reasons that being on new kernels (or a linux kernel at all)
Things like bpf if you're doing performance profiling Ready access to PMCs (The Intel PMC stuff is a pain in the ass to get working in Windows, because you have to build a signed driver for MSR access) without paying the $900 for vTune Access to perf
There's really no way to do performance engineering on Bash/WSL
Things like bpf if you're doing performance profiling Ready access to PMCs (The Intel PMC stuff is a pain in the ass to get working in Windows, because you have to build a signed driver for MSR access) without paying the $900 for vTune Access to perf
There's really no way to do performance engineering on Bash/WSL
The wifi story has been stable for years now, at least on Debian 8.
When you have Intel wifi you'll have to enable the non-free repo, and that's about the extent of it.
When you have Intel wifi you'll have to enable the non-free repo, and that's about the extent of it.
It's way better than hand-coding NDISWrapper but that isn't trivial unless you're already familiar with Linux.
I had a friend ask me about installing a distro the other day. I told him to buy a Linode/DO box or use WSFL instead of finagling with hardware. My Dell XPS 13 is sold _as_ a Linux machine, and there aren't drivers for everything.
I had a friend ask me about installing a distro the other day. I told him to buy a Linode/DO box or use WSFL instead of finagling with hardware. My Dell XPS 13 is sold _as_ a Linux machine, and there aren't drivers for everything.
I think there's a fair number of Mac users/developers who are currently looking around. WSL might be enough to swing it.
At my office the general consensus is "hate using the Mac but development is easier on a unix based machine" and our IT department doesn't have a process for securely preparing Linux machines.
The Fedora support definitely has me excited. Will try it out on my home computer before making the real jump.
The Fedora support definitely has me excited. Will try it out on my home computer before making the real jump.
It was enough to get me to try it. I like it generally, once it's configured properly.
Using Windows to write software that runs on Ubuntu servers is not really much harder than using a Mac to do the same thing. You have to use a VM either way.
By the way, I like Powershell so much I installed it on my Macbook Pro.
Using Windows to write software that runs on Ubuntu servers is not really much harder than using a Mac to do the same thing. You have to use a VM either way.
By the way, I like Powershell so much I installed it on my Macbook Pro.
I was in that camp. I thought WSL would make me a Windows user, but in the end I find just using Linux to be much simpler and better.
Okay. And while I appreciate you have your reasons for your decision to pick an OS based on your use cases and hardware...
Why did you bring this comment here? Is your hope to convince other people, or to reaffirm your decision to yourself?
It seems off topic.
Why did you bring this comment here? Is your hope to convince other people, or to reaffirm your decision to yourself?
It seems off topic.
Yes this is a really useful comment. It's so good to know what your plans are, and really says something about the link. Thanks...
The problem with WSL is that it's young so some integrations are still not perfect.
For example, the integration with VSCode :
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/25033
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/24967
But both teams, WSL and VSCode, are very, very responsive. I'm pretty sure in a couple of months everything will be fine.
For example, the integration with VSCode :
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/25033
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/24967
But both teams, WSL and VSCode, are very, very responsive. I'm pretty sure in a couple of months everything will be fine.
Same reason why I am not making the switch. Whenever I have good integration of wsl python interpreter running in vscode, I will be a happy person
Not VSCode, but...
https://github.com/Microsoft/PTVS/pull/2500
https://github.com/Microsoft/PTVS/pull/2500
I want Nix and Nixpkgs. A genuinely innovative and different package manager / distro alternative.
Apparently this already works really well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/64xyd7/nix_package_m...
https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/64xyd7/nix_package_m...
I missed the Windows 10 free upgrade and now regretting it.
I've heard you can activate Windows 10 with a key from 7 or 8.1 [1].
[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windo...
[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windo...
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/accessibility/windows10upgra...
Still free to upgrade
Still free to upgrade
Does it provide a trimmed down version of the upgrade? Will I be able to use Ubuntu subsystem?
As graton alludes to with his upgrade link, the trick is to get to the upgrade through an accessibility link. Windows 10 is still free for people that require accessibility services (presumably since it has better accessibility features), but there's no actual requirement behind that.
You can still activate W10 using 7/8 keys and most of the other methods still work. At least that's what people say on /r/windows10.
I really like most of windows 10. My main complaint is the start menu, I have yet to figure out how I'm supposed to use it
I use it the same way I use Spotlight on mac and gnome-do on Ubuntu. I press a key-combo and it gives me a prompt to start typing a few characters that'll probably take me to what I'm looking for.
I can't stand the Windows 10 Start Menu. I paid 5 bucks for Start10 [1], although some people like the free Classic Shell [2].
[1] http://www.stardock.com/products/start10/ [2] http://www.classicshell.net/
[1] http://www.stardock.com/products/start10/ [2] http://www.classicshell.net/
To me it seems like you're mostly supposed to use Cortana search. They've taken the same approach as macOS and Ubuntu it seems.
I unpinned everything, and just operate it entirely by keyboard: hit the windows key, type the first few characters of the program name, hit enter. I find I don't even need to look at it most of the time.
you're supposed to pin your most used apps as tiles
I downloaded the iso during the free upgrade period but didn't get around to installing it until last weekend.
On my first attempt I agreed to a prompt to download updates to the installer; it then told me I needed to have a key to continue.
So I started again without downloading the updates, and I could install and activate without a key.
On my first attempt I agreed to a prompt to download updates to the installer; it then told me I needed to have a key to continue.
So I started again without downloading the updates, and I could install and activate without a key.
Can't wait for Arch Linux!
Arch works fine, the wsl subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/bashonubuntuonwindows/) has a guide how to install it manually.
It's been possible for a while. I used it, maybe it was https://github.com/alwsl/alwsl
Is there some clear benefit of using it instead of normal VM or running Linux directly?
Interoperability is one: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/interop
I also appreciate the fact that it "boots" instantly (i.e. you don't have to turn it on or off like VM) and that it works out of the box with every up-to-date W10 computer (great if you need to get something done on a computer that is not your own).
I also appreciate the fact that it "boots" instantly (i.e. you don't have to turn it on or off like VM) and that it works out of the box with every up-to-date W10 computer (great if you need to get something done on a computer that is not your own).
Does the new update fix it working with Windows Firewall? So far it was all or nothing, you could not block any processes seperately that were running within the subsystem. I assume that has not changed?
I still find it funny that people claim that they code on a Mac because it's flavor of Unix is somehow close to Linux. There's an ocean of differences between the two and I'm getting tired of people who perpetuate the false sense of security that because they're coding on macOS that they'll be fine when they deploy to a Linux environment. WSL is starting to look like the better option for those who for whatever reason can't develop for Linux in a Linux environment.
a bit off-topic, are there cheaper ways to buy a windows 10 license than directly from microsoft for $200? (I'm not a student).
You can get an Professional OEM license from Kinguin[1] for ~$30.
One limitation I am aware of is that you can only license / activate one system at a time and I had to call MS to get the key unlocked after upgrading my gaming system.
[1] https://www.kinguin.net/category/19429/windows-10-profession...
One limitation I am aware of is that you can only license / activate one system at a time and I had to call MS to get the key unlocked after upgrading my gaming system.
[1] https://www.kinguin.net/category/19429/windows-10-profession...
Win 10 Home is only $110 from Newegg or Amazon, and less if you get the "OEM" version. I forget the restrictions on the OEM version, but I think its intended for people building systems and reselling them -- I don't think anything stops you from using it on your own system, its just technically in violation of the licence.
Windows 10 Home doesn't include the Group Policy Editor though, so if you buy that you're basically stuck having all manner of things shoved down your throat.
While the Pro version won't necessarily save you entirely from this, it goes a long way towards giving the user more freedom (at additional cost, of course).
While the Pro version won't necessarily save you entirely from this, it goes a long way towards giving the user more freedom (at additional cost, of course).
OEM keys don't allow you to call MS for help as it's intended that you'd call your OEM for support.
I think they are supposed to be non transferable as well (can't transfer to a new PC)
I think they are supposed to be non transferable as well (can't transfer to a new PC)
As much as I wish this could be compared to what Apple did with MacOS, it's not an apt comparison. Microsoft is essentially bolting on a Linux distro whereas Apple rebuilt MacOS from the ground-up using NeXTSTEP. What Microsoft is doing is more akin to something like Cygwin, except Microsoft is developing it and you can choose your distro. You might have better integration between Windows and Linux, but it's hardly a rethink. I would really like to see a commercial grade UNIX alternative to Mac brought to us by Microsoft, but it doesn't appear they are headed in that direction.
I wonder if package maintainers will be able to use this as a way to test their packages on multiple distributions from a single test system. That would be pretty cool.
I continue to be impressed with the progress the WSL team has made. The usable open source development environment on top of a kernel that can correctly drive all the various peripheral in the box is so very useful to me.
I continue to be impressed with the progress the WSL team has made. The usable open source development environment on top of a kernel that can correctly drive all the various peripheral in the box is so very useful to me.
That's nothing you can't already do with VMs, and avoiding vendor lock-in.
Actually it is different. The difference might not matter in some cases, and in other cases it will.
Running on a VM means running on emulated devices, running in a Userland host means running on native devices. WSL is to windows as Wine is to Linux.
A really trivial example is the buffer cache. On a Linux kernel it will take big chunks of memory to buffer disk blocks that it has read and dirtied. When run in a VM it continues to have that behavior so for a given disk you have two sets of disk caches, one in the VM and one in the host kernel. Twice the cache with half the management smarts.
Running on a VM means running on emulated devices, running in a Userland host means running on native devices. WSL is to windows as Wine is to Linux.
A really trivial example is the buffer cache. On a Linux kernel it will take big chunks of memory to buffer disk blocks that it has read and dirtied. When run in a VM it continues to have that behavior so for a given disk you have two sets of disk caches, one in the VM and one in the host kernel. Twice the cache with half the management smarts.
I'm not arguing that VMs vs API compatibility layers aren't different, but that the specific testbed case you'd mentioned of emulations on a single host is nothing novel.
A compatabilty layer generally takes away the kernel's role. Is that the case here?
A compatabilty layer generally takes away the kernel's role. Is that the case here?
Generally packages are concerned about interactions in 'user land' and the package manager of the distro. By not carrying around multiple copies of the kernel and its internal data structures this compatibility layer provides a better solution (in terms of resource utilization) for working with several different distributions on a single system than the VM approach does.
Sure, but that is something you can already do in a chroot jail.
You can do a lot of this already with this tool [1] that uses the images on Docker Hub to replace the contents of the lxss folder. It's a little clunky but worked well enough for my limited needs.
[1] https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distribution-Switcher
[1] https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distribution-Switcher
how does this handle SELinux on Fedora? Is SELinux below the userland, so it doesn't factor in at all?
Right, the WSL still uses the Windows kernel, so anything at that level (filesystem permissions etc) will be handled either by the kernel or by the "pico provider" syscall translators.
IIRC SELinux is an LSM which runs in the kernel.
Fingers crossed for FUSE support soon, sorely needed IMO.
Hope for fixes for stuff like npm, too.
Fixes for what, specifically?
Perhaps they only used it at the very beginning, when network requests were horribly broken, to the point that you couldn't even do an npm install. I haven't had any issues lately with NPM however.
Don't want to speak for them though so let's see
Don't want to speak for them though so let's see
I initially had problems with max character length for paths. When npm installed dependencies really deep down, Windows became unable to move or delete such files. I think it's been fixed with Yarn's flat dependency structure, which I think npm has also gone or is going to in the near future.
Npm is broken for example, it's apath exception when it looks into the os api. It expects linux defaults. The npm guys are trying to f8x it last i saw. Shame the module causes that. Itll trinkle down to many other Tools.
Is this windows npm, or linux npm running on WSL? Because I believe that linux npm works just fine...
I've used Linux npm on Ubuntu/WSL without any issues.
Someone on /r/linux said, and I agree, "it's like putting sugar in your cup full of piss".
Im only interested in Gentoo!
Microsoft is so frustrating.
On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago. And steps like this show that they're not just addressing that at a shallow level, but are willing to dig deep to make it happen, which is sincerely encouraging.
But then on the other hand, they insist on loading Windows 10 up with privacy invasions you can't disable and ads in deeply inappropriate places like Windows Explorer, which is just a huge buzz-kill for the exact type of person who the other stuff is so clearly meant to appeal to. Which gives the whole effort a real Keystone Kops aspect.
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises, and Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction. I guess it's an improvement over the Microsoft of old to see the company's basic orientation go from "competent evil" to "incompetent good," but when you consider how few good things there are in the universe it's always sad to see a potential new one kneecapping itself.
On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago. And steps like this show that they're not just addressing that at a shallow level, but are willing to dig deep to make it happen, which is sincerely encouraging.
But then on the other hand, they insist on loading Windows 10 up with privacy invasions you can't disable and ads in deeply inappropriate places like Windows Explorer, which is just a huge buzz-kill for the exact type of person who the other stuff is so clearly meant to appeal to. Which gives the whole effort a real Keystone Kops aspect.
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises, and Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction. I guess it's an improvement over the Microsoft of old to see the company's basic orientation go from "competent evil" to "incompetent good," but when you consider how few good things there are in the universe it's always sad to see a potential new one kneecapping itself.
> It feels like there's different groups inside MS that [...] Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction
That's exactly how it is.
That's exactly how it is.
As illustrated here: http://www.bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts/
Yup, from my time at Microsoft, agreed.
Pretty certain that this Dilbert strip was based on Microsoft too, Dogbert's "Battlin' Business Units" management philosophy:
http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-30
Pretty certain that this Dilbert strip was based on Microsoft too, Dogbert's "Battlin' Business Units" management philosophy:
http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-30
Not MS specifically, charging between business units as though they're outside companies is pretty common these days. It's as disastrous for cooperation and productivity as you'd imagine.
Know someone who works at Microsoft, can confirm.
I know someone who works at Microsoft (and has for 15 years.) These cartoons are brilliant--especially the org charts for different companies--but things actually are changing at Microsoft.
Some divisions change faster than others. And some old reputations are very hard to shake. But Microsoft isn't the company it used to be. There are other companies filling that role now. Example: Even though all you ever hear about is "Windows is spying on me!" I can name three big tech companies that probably know more about you than Microsoft does.
Some divisions change faster than others. And some old reputations are very hard to shake. But Microsoft isn't the company it used to be. There are other companies filling that role now. Example: Even though all you ever hear about is "Windows is spying on me!" I can name three big tech companies that probably know more about you than Microsoft does.
Thanks for the downvotes! But seriously, do you honestly think that Microsoft is spying on your more than Google, Facebook, or Amazon? And do you think your Mac OS doesn't have the exact same sort of telemetry (or more!) that Windows has?
The 90's are over.
The 90's are over.
But what about whataboutism?
While this may change at any operating system update (It did for Win7 in a supposedly "security" update), my Mac seems to want to talk to Apple only to get AppStore updates, whereas Windows machines in my office want to talk to a lot of servers at Microsoft, and do so with hard coded IPs, and weird process names. Can you point to an Apple equivalent of this list? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/micro...
My browser has a strict policy that tells Google, Facebook and Amazon exactly what I allow it to; that sometimes causes things to malfunction, and I can live with that. Can you tell me how to do that with Win10?
Oh, and, no, Fedora, Arch and even with Ubuntu's worst blunder in this respect, do not spy on me even 1:10000 as Microsoft does.
While this may change at any operating system update (It did for Win7 in a supposedly "security" update), my Mac seems to want to talk to Apple only to get AppStore updates, whereas Windows machines in my office want to talk to a lot of servers at Microsoft, and do so with hard coded IPs, and weird process names. Can you point to an Apple equivalent of this list? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/micro...
My browser has a strict policy that tells Google, Facebook and Amazon exactly what I allow it to; that sometimes causes things to malfunction, and I can live with that. Can you tell me how to do that with Win10?
Oh, and, no, Fedora, Arch and even with Ubuntu's worst blunder in this respect, do not spy on me even 1:10000 as Microsoft does.
> But seriously, do you honestly think that Microsoft is spying on your more than Google, Facebook, or Amazon?
Yes. I have much more control* over what google and facebook can spy on. MS as the platform owner has the ability to spy on everything.
*Except for on android, fuck google now in particular.
Yes. I have much more control* over what google and facebook can spy on. MS as the platform owner has the ability to spy on everything.
*Except for on android, fuck google now in particular.
Sure, I can accept that a platform can be doing more than a website and also that you have less control over a platform. Good points, both.
I won't comment on Android. I already got ripped to shreds above by trying to bring up the point that mobile is completely locked into two major players that act exactly like Windows 10.
I won't comment on Android. I already got ripped to shreds above by trying to bring up the point that mobile is completely locked into two major players that act exactly like Windows 10.
Since everything and everyone is collecting user data, it would be fair to leave the starter/home/"cloud" editions as it is.
But damn, if I'm going to pay for my OS I want ZERO data collection and the option to never use stuff like Cortana (opt-in). And if that's too much to ask, why don't they release a more expensive Windows 10 Tinfoil Edition? You would still have to trust MS but at least you would have the legal right to dispute it (if they decide to do something shady).
But damn, if I'm going to pay for my OS I want ZERO data collection and the option to never use stuff like Cortana (opt-in). And if that's too much to ask, why don't they release a more expensive Windows 10 Tinfoil Edition? You would still have to trust MS but at least you would have the legal right to dispute it (if they decide to do something shady).
So what phone do you carry? A Nokia flip-phone?
Really? On a discussion about a desktop OS? There are so many things going through my mind after your comment that I can't even start typing. Branch limit reached.
I'm using Android and I have the same concerns about it. I gave my Lumia away because it doesn't have the apps that I need and, again, I had the same concerns. My time is limited so I have to pick my battles. Mobile is a lost cause.
So I decide to give feedback about one of the two desktop OSs that I use (Windows and Linux). I don't give a shit if Apple/Google is going to make you insert a coin every hour to use the OS, I would still complain to MS if they decided to do the same.
I don't even know exactly what's your point. Feel free to ask if I write Microsoft with a $.
I'm using Android and I have the same concerns about it. I gave my Lumia away because it doesn't have the apps that I need and, again, I had the same concerns. My time is limited so I have to pick my battles. Mobile is a lost cause.
So I decide to give feedback about one of the two desktop OSs that I use (Windows and Linux). I don't give a shit if Apple/Google is going to make you insert a coin every hour to use the OS, I would still complain to MS if they decided to do the same.
I don't even know exactly what's your point. Feel free to ask if I write Microsoft with a $.
I didn't mean to offend. I'm just saying that if you think paying for an OS means you won't have data collection, then you're unlikely to find a smartphone that suits you.
My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
And do you write Microsoft with a $? :)
My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
And do you write Microsoft with a $? :)
> I'm just saying that if you think paying for an OS means you won't have data collection, then you're unlikely to find a smartphone that suits you
> I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
Why do you keep talking about mobile when the subject of this thread and my original comment is about Windows Desktop OS? Should we talk about IoT too?
> My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
You're triggered because I mentioned the word "trust"? When data leaves your computer, it's all about trust. I don't trust anyone so I don't want my personal data leaking in the first place. Most of the time ("like in mobile") there's no viable, realistic, practical alternative.
If the money I paid for my Windows license is not enough they need to rethink their pricing. That's all I'm asking. Allow me to pay for my privacy. I would quietly leave your ecosystem if I could but congratulations, you have me locked in because of my job and certain network effects.
> I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
Why do you keep talking about mobile when the subject of this thread and my original comment is about Windows Desktop OS? Should we talk about IoT too?
> My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
You're triggered because I mentioned the word "trust"? When data leaves your computer, it's all about trust. I don't trust anyone so I don't want my personal data leaking in the first place. Most of the time ("like in mobile") there's no viable, realistic, practical alternative.
If the money I paid for my Windows license is not enough they need to rethink their pricing. That's all I'm asking. Allow me to pay for my privacy. I would quietly leave your ecosystem if I could but congratulations, you have me locked in because of my job and certain network effects.
Wow, sorry. No, no, I'm not triggered at all. I was only trying to illustrate the fact that there are times when we have no choice but to use an OS that uses telemetry.
I'll happily concede this thread and apologize for having brought it up. I really wasn't trying to start a fight. I was trying to give what I thought was an analogous example.
I'll happily concede this thread and apologize for having brought it up. I really wasn't trying to start a fight. I was trying to give what I thought was an analogous example.
Get the Enterprise Edition and you'll get full control on what data is leaving your machine.
That's just not true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12959097
Unfortunately, not true anymore.
In my opinion it was never truly off even when the label pointed to that. Explorer, Photos, Cortana and everything else is constantly making networks calls for "reasons". For me "Off" means it will only call home to check for updates and for opt-in features that requires a connection.
Considering how much they are probably spending in order to make this happen (considering the amount of work being done to it), I feel like it was started as a proposal to the head people that there was a group of people that normally wouldn't use windows, but could be convinced to use it by having this subsystem. Along with this, supporting open source makes Microsoft look good.
But, it wasn't anywhere close to enough of an importance for Microsoft to abandon their data collection system just to go "all the way" with the whole open source thing. It seems like their privacy model is more important to them than whatever an open source model could bring them.
But, it wasn't anywhere close to enough of an importance for Microsoft to abandon their data collection system just to go "all the way" with the whole open source thing. It seems like their privacy model is more important to them than whatever an open source model could bring them.
And OSX keeps nagging me in various ways to use iCloud.. is that an "ad" also?
iCloud is at least also an Apple product. The last time I installed Win10 (fresh, legal install media direct from Microsoft), on the first boot there was an ad for Candy Crush in the start menu. That's just unacceptable.
On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago.
I tried Ubuntu on Windows 10, and found it too wonky. I switched over to running Xubuntu in VirtualBox!
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises
It's always been like this.
I tried Ubuntu on Windows 10, and found it too wonky. I switched over to running Xubuntu in VirtualBox!
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises
It's always been like this.
Xubuntu is lovely, but for the last year I've been on i3/IceWeasel/urxvt exclusively. So much faster and more convenient than clicking and dragging around all the time.
When friends want to use my desktop I change my DE to XFCE for a sec. I also still use the XFCE login screen (because it's easy to install, it works and you get per-user DE defaults).
When friends want to use my desktop I change my DE to XFCE for a sec. I also still use the XFCE login screen (because it's easy to install, it works and you get per-user DE defaults).
What Microsoft is doing with Windows today is not just "competent evil," it's "deliberate competent evil." 90's Microsoft was tolerable. Since Windows 10, they've destroyed the entire Windows ecosystem for anyone that cares about privacy. IMO, that's orders of magnitude worse for everyone. But hey, at least if we find a keylogger in Microsoft software, at least we know it's a feature, not a bug or debugging tool.
I'm not saying it's not true but I am yet to see any advertisement in my Windows 10 anywhere... even Explorer! Anyone else?
I think people have a bit of a popular misconception about the Explorer advertising thing. What's happening is that MS is adding a banner to Explorer advertising paid OneDrive subscriptions.
I totally agree that it's massively inappropriate, but I do think that most people are imagining third-party advertising which is not what's happening - a lot of people might not consider the current situation to be an "ad" necessarily since it is pushing a subscription for OneDrive, a Microsoft product that you already have installed. It's more of an in-app purchase kind of offer.
I totally agree that it's massively inappropriate, but I do think that most people are imagining third-party advertising which is not what's happening - a lot of people might not consider the current situation to be an "ad" necessarily since it is pushing a subscription for OneDrive, a Microsoft product that you already have installed. It's more of an in-app purchase kind of offer.
I don't particular care who is trying to sell me shit in the file manager, I care that shit is being sold in the file manager.
In an operating system I paid $100 for. Unacceptable.
In an operating system I paid $100 for. Unacceptable.
Yeah I don't understand why people are freaking out about this. I know the icon is there, but I never "see" it and I'll never click on it..
So who cares..
So who cares..
If this is all it is, then it is not unprecedented. I remember that Windows 95 did something similar with MSN (which at that time was also a dialup service).
Yeah, I recently installed Windows 95 in a VM to run some old software and I was actually quite surprised at how hard it pushes MSN - the "connect to the internet" wizard it presents basically asks if you're on a LAN and, if you say no, tells you to call MSN to sign up.
As-is, I don't think it's a big deal. This is a slippery slope though. Look at what cable television has become. You pay for the product and they shove advertisements down your throat. Satellite radio is doing the same thing.
They don't necessarily make it easy to turn off all the weird ad-type-stuff, but they don't make it impossible either. A quick tour through settings on install can get rid of it all.
There is still one absolutely heinous crime though - your system comes preinstalled with Minecraft and Candy Crush (and a couple other bullshit softares), and if you uninstall them, Windows 10 will automatically reinstall them. You have to do esoteric shit in the registry editor to disable this. It infuriates me.
There is still one absolutely heinous crime though - your system comes preinstalled with Minecraft and Candy Crush (and a couple other bullshit softares), and if you uninstall them, Windows 10 will automatically reinstall them. You have to do esoteric shit in the registry editor to disable this. It infuriates me.
>There is still one absolutely heinous crime though - your system comes preinstalled with Minecraft and Candy Crush (and a couple other bullshit softares), and if you uninstall them, Windows 10 will automatically reinstall them.
That was fixed in Creators Update: it now remembers uninstalled default applications.
That was fixed in Creators Update: it now remembers uninstalled default applications.
[deleted]
Are you for real? Is this really the world most of my friends live in?
I recently did a fresh install of creators update on my laptop. Not only does it have crapware bundled that I had to uninstall, it has placeholders for apps from store which is literally advertisement. I also got edge ads when I was downloading other browser. I preemptively disabled all other "suggestions", but saying that windows 10 doesn't have ads is a blatant lie.
It's all in the settings. I never had ads or privacy problems, but if you leave everything at the default settings, you'll have those problems
I agree that it's all in the settings, but I also had to turn off Cortana making suggestions in 3 different spots.
MS definitely didn't make it easy to get it to stop harassing you.
MS definitely didn't make it easy to get it to stop harassing you.
I formatted a few weeks ago. After installing Chrome and opening it, a popover appeared over the Edge icon in my toolbar explaining how much faster it is. I've also seen a few OneDrive ads.
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I have also not seen any anytime. It is also true that I only use managed Enterprise, and a pro at home where I have o365 subscription.
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It seems to me like the issue is that its just a really large ship and will take a while for the whole company to get on board with the new philosphy. Redmond wasn't built in a day.
I thought the Enterprise edition had none of these problems. Might be worth grabbing that instead?
That's why I switched to a Chromebook. ;)
why do people support this company still? sorry to be that guy, but i will never use a product from them after the jwz fiasco. and no, new leadership doesn't make up for decades of behavior.
I know who jwz is, but what is the "jwz fiasco"? That Microsoft built a better browser than him?
What is jwz?
It is really too bad that we can't have things like this in our society. That looks like it would have been a very healthy way to deal with stress and frustration, especially in an otherwise restrained environment like work.
Thank you for that bit of history.
Thank you for that bit of history.
It's not clear if it's the intended result, but that link (for me, and quite unexpectedly) redirects to an Imgur picture of a testicle in a teacup, which is a little funny but which one might not intend to display.
It seems to be a redirect based on the referring URL. Copy and paste it to get to the actual site
I'm super excited about this but the windows store is cancer :(
Don't get me wrong, I love using it, but it doesn't beat the aesthetics of a terminal on a mac or a nicely configured ubuntu terminal.