Ask HN: Do you use creatine as a brain supplement?
62 comments
On a related note I'd like to say that you should in general be very wary of any substance that people claim to be a "nootropic" or to otherwise improve cognitive functions. A lot of the studies that these claims are based on are 1) funded by groups that would see benefit from the claims (supplement industry), 2) not reproducible / are one off studies / show statistically insignificant results given the sample size, or 3) simply based on shitty science.
For example, in the article found at the link, note that they only examined 45 people, all of whom were vegetarians (who are much more likely to be creatine deficient due to their diets). Although the subjects were consuming more creatine than the vast majority of meat eaters would consume naturally, since the authors didn't experiment with other doses (e.g. 1-2g a day, more accurately mirroring the diet of those that consistently eat meat) there's no telling whether consuming extra creatine will actually benefit your cognitive abilities if you are already regularly eating meat.
For example, in the article found at the link, note that they only examined 45 people, all of whom were vegetarians (who are much more likely to be creatine deficient due to their diets). Although the subjects were consuming more creatine than the vast majority of meat eaters would consume naturally, since the authors didn't experiment with other doses (e.g. 1-2g a day, more accurately mirroring the diet of those that consistently eat meat) there's no telling whether consuming extra creatine will actually benefit your cognitive abilities if you are already regularly eating meat.
This is true, and a good warning. There's a whole industry of stuff like AlphaBrain out there that's dubiously effective, understudied, under-tested for purity, and generally scary. But I also think there's an awful lot of literature about most single-substance nootropics. It's the complex stacks that are totally unstudied.
Creatine, for instance, has been studied for mental effects a bunch of times - the answers all seem to line up on "can definitely help some people, but probably insignificant to most". Other substances shake out similarly - the data on bacopa is inconclusive, but the studies are numerous enough to suggest that the inconclusiveness is about a very weak or situational effect, not a lack of literature.
The vegetarian point does touch on my larger concern, though: people talk like studies finding weak 'average effects' mean the drug is universally effective, but low-powered. That's possible, but it seems more likely that there are lots of drugs which are situationally powerful (e.g. based on diet or genetics) and hardly any that are good for everyone. Creatine is obvious, and I kind of suspect cholinergics and bacopa for this also. Gwern is really good about acknowledging that his studies (of n=1) aren't being designed to apply to anyone else, but most people don't offer that caveat.
Creatine, for instance, has been studied for mental effects a bunch of times - the answers all seem to line up on "can definitely help some people, but probably insignificant to most". Other substances shake out similarly - the data on bacopa is inconclusive, but the studies are numerous enough to suggest that the inconclusiveness is about a very weak or situational effect, not a lack of literature.
The vegetarian point does touch on my larger concern, though: people talk like studies finding weak 'average effects' mean the drug is universally effective, but low-powered. That's possible, but it seems more likely that there are lots of drugs which are situationally powerful (e.g. based on diet or genetics) and hardly any that are good for everyone. Creatine is obvious, and I kind of suspect cholinergics and bacopa for this also. Gwern is really good about acknowledging that his studies (of n=1) aren't being designed to apply to anyone else, but most people don't offer that caveat.
As with most nootropics, Gwern has done the research.[1] Summary: creatine probably doesn't do anything for cognition. It might help some vegetarians.
1. https://www.gwern.net/Creatine
1. https://www.gwern.net/Creatine
I very much doubt you'll see any fugitive enhancement and in the two decades I've been cycling on and off supplemental Creatine for my workout regime, I can't speak for any such gains.
Creatine is both synthesized by the body and consumed in meat. The vast majority of it goes into skeletal muscles where it functions as an ATP recycling compound, something these cells consume a lot of. Small amounts are found inn the blood and brain add well but not nearly as much.
It may provide a small boost if you're low on blood sugar simply from providing some extra energy and drawing water into the cell - but it's not much more than you would get from simply consuming energy rich compounds like sugars or carbohydrates. It does certainly provide significant physical performance enhancement by increasing endurance, reducing muscle fatigue and generally providing greater muscle "pump" from it's cell volumizing qualities. Thus I'd say that the only cognitive gains one would experience would be from the added satisfaction coming from better performance and improved physique - ie. A placebo effect of sorts. However, depending on the importance of physical fitness to an individual, this can be substantial. My improved workouts and increased strength definitely put me in a much better mood and provide greater motivation for my intellectual endeavors. Ironically, because it can supercharge workouts, it can leave one with substantial mental fatigue immediately after such workouts at which point you're better off taking a break to recover before doing any mentally intense stuff
Creatine is both synthesized by the body and consumed in meat. The vast majority of it goes into skeletal muscles where it functions as an ATP recycling compound, something these cells consume a lot of. Small amounts are found inn the blood and brain add well but not nearly as much.
It may provide a small boost if you're low on blood sugar simply from providing some extra energy and drawing water into the cell - but it's not much more than you would get from simply consuming energy rich compounds like sugars or carbohydrates. It does certainly provide significant physical performance enhancement by increasing endurance, reducing muscle fatigue and generally providing greater muscle "pump" from it's cell volumizing qualities. Thus I'd say that the only cognitive gains one would experience would be from the added satisfaction coming from better performance and improved physique - ie. A placebo effect of sorts. However, depending on the importance of physical fitness to an individual, this can be substantial. My improved workouts and increased strength definitely put me in a much better mood and provide greater motivation for my intellectual endeavors. Ironically, because it can supercharge workouts, it can leave one with substantial mental fatigue immediately after such workouts at which point you're better off taking a break to recover before doing any mentally intense stuff
Most of the studies that show an intelligence improvement were done on vegetarians (look it up at examine.org), which I am so YMMV. When I'm already feeling sluggish it seems to help with "brain fog." But I think I could improve this by eating a more balanced diet, no creatine needed.
My current nootropic stack is:
* Pramiracetam 500mg * Alpha GPC 50% 600mg * Noopept 10mg * Agmatine Sulfate 500mg
I am convinced that these chemicals work, improve mental ability, memory/recall and focus. Ive found myself able to handle more task simultaneously, even able to understand to multiple conflicting conversations.
If you can handle the awful taste of Pramiracetam (its bad... probably the worst thing ive ever tasted) you may find quite the boost in awareness. Some may find it too intense. In general nootropics are non-addictive, especially with the awful taste of Pram, you might need to force yourself to take them...
* Pramiracetam 500mg * Alpha GPC 50% 600mg * Noopept 10mg * Agmatine Sulfate 500mg
I am convinced that these chemicals work, improve mental ability, memory/recall and focus. Ive found myself able to handle more task simultaneously, even able to understand to multiple conflicting conversations.
If you can handle the awful taste of Pramiracetam (its bad... probably the worst thing ive ever tasted) you may find quite the boost in awareness. Some may find it too intense. In general nootropics are non-addictive, especially with the awful taste of Pram, you might need to force yourself to take them...
Thanks for this! Didn't know about Pramiracetam, and it seems I can get it online.
I'm already taking Modafinil, so I might experiment with taking Pramiracetam as well, see if I can get an extra boost.
I'm already taking Modafinil, so I might experiment with taking Pramiracetam as well, see if I can get an extra boost.
Give it a try! Do stack it with Alpha GPC, you will need a cholinergic compound with the racetam family or else you will get headaches.
Wow, I'm honestly impressed with the level of experimentation you are willing to do on yourself.
Do you have good enough confidence/knowledge to be sure you will not damage yourself for the long term?
As far as nootropics go, his choices are on the conservative side. Racetams have a relatively good safety profile, and Choline is naturally found in common food.
> naturally found in common food
Yes, but that doesn't mean the form found in supplements is the same. Also, "the dose makes the poison."
In the Nineties, Wired and Mondo 2000 were good for piquing interest in nootropics but as they didn't seem to catch on (aside from off-label use of pharmaceuticals like Adderall), I put them in the same mental bin as all supplements; not worth one's time except for individuals who have documented deficiencies.
Yes, but that doesn't mean the form found in supplements is the same. Also, "the dose makes the poison."
In the Nineties, Wired and Mondo 2000 were good for piquing interest in nootropics but as they didn't seem to catch on (aside from off-label use of pharmaceuticals like Adderall), I put them in the same mental bin as all supplements; not worth one's time except for individuals who have documented deficiencies.
Yes, I do.
Really? Downvoting a comment because of something I might or might not do with my life?
So it is supposed to be a brain supplement now? Back in the mid to late 90s I knew people that took it to try to get bigger muscles.
It definitely does that, and it's the reason creatine is cheap and common. But there's a long-standing question about whether creatine supplements are also psychoactive - the best data seems to suggest "yes if you're deficient, but if you're not then supplementing primarily affects your body".
When I took it regularly, I'd retain a bit more water and muscles felt fuller. Doing high weight / low rep training, it definitely felt like it helped me to squeeze out another rep at the end. And that is supposed to be the key benefit, allowing you to train a little harder.
I noticed no effects on cognition at all.
I noticed no effects on cognition at all.
It's still very popular in bodybuilding/fitness circles.
I do not. Nor any other "brain supplement."
AFAIK, there's nothing conclusive about supplementing brain functions. Examine.com has a good write up on creatine [1].
I've used creatine with the goal of increasing performance in strength training. I guess I'm a non-responder, 'cause there was no noticeable gains in performance for me.
[1] https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/
I've used creatine with the goal of increasing performance in strength training. I guess I'm a non-responder, 'cause there was no noticeable gains in performance for me.
[1] https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/
I've been using a daily dose of 5g of creatine for several months to help with climbing. Maybe I'm a non-responder, or maybe the effects are too subtle, but I haven't noticed anything. Definitely nothing in terms of brain functions or what not.
It's cheap enough to continue to do it though, so I kind of keep at it.
It's cheap enough to continue to do it though, so I kind of keep at it.
I tried creatine out for a while. It definitely had an effect on me; previously I tended to tire out in my strength workout prior to really pulling the muscles and I tended not to have to be too careful about that. Creatine allowed me to workout longer without realizing it, to the point that I was in some pain for the next several days on those muscle groups, rather than "maybe sorta sore the next day for a bit".
Whoops.
With a bit more work I was able to tune myself to stop that, but it didn't buy me much.
In the meantime I noticed no cognitive effects strong enough to be noticeable without full-on Gwern-style careful testing. (My policy on that is that if the power of the result isn't big enough for me to notice in "normal life", I'm not that interested.)
I can believe that dedicated athletes can use it to good effect but I don't think I recommend it for casuals such as myself. I also definitely had to be extra-sure to drink more water than I felt like I needed or I would get dehydration headaches.
Whoops.
With a bit more work I was able to tune myself to stop that, but it didn't buy me much.
In the meantime I noticed no cognitive effects strong enough to be noticeable without full-on Gwern-style careful testing. (My policy on that is that if the power of the result isn't big enough for me to notice in "normal life", I'm not that interested.)
I can believe that dedicated athletes can use it to good effect but I don't think I recommend it for casuals such as myself. I also definitely had to be extra-sure to drink more water than I felt like I needed or I would get dehydration headaches.
Have you tried creatine loading? Take 20 to 25g per day for a week, then take 5g/day for a month. Take a few weeks off and do it again. That's what I've done in the past when I was taking creatine for a recovery enhancer.
There was a research that concluded that after a month, there is no difference in creatine amount in blood if you've been loading or just taking 5g daily.
I've only ever heard of creatine loading as a way of getting an early kickstart for workouts. I didn't think it was even supposed to help in the 1+ month window, just get you better training results for a week or two up front.
I've heard rumors that 25% of people have naturally higher amount of creatine and taking extra will not help
Well, I didn't know that. Maybe I should expect a rise on my cog-skills now that I started taking it last week for exercise.
On a side note: As others pointed out, Modafinil is really what you want if you need a brain supplement. I've been taking it since November last year on a daily basis (100 milligrams, half a pill) and I can say that I've been able to make a lot of progress to actively stop procrastination. It's not magic, I still struggle with it a lot, but I've been able to manage it and build a routine of meditation and exercise that I hadn't been able to build before (I'm 35 y/o). There's a lot of work left to get to point where I can say I've actually won and I'm not a procrastinator anymore, but this year so far will be one of the most productive I've ever had.
On a side note: As others pointed out, Modafinil is really what you want if you need a brain supplement. I've been taking it since November last year on a daily basis (100 milligrams, half a pill) and I can say that I've been able to make a lot of progress to actively stop procrastination. It's not magic, I still struggle with it a lot, but I've been able to manage it and build a routine of meditation and exercise that I hadn't been able to build before (I'm 35 y/o). There's a lot of work left to get to point where I can say I've actually won and I'm not a procrastinator anymore, but this year so far will be one of the most productive I've ever had.
But Modafinil as a brain supplement isn't an FDA approved use and doctors generally won't prescribe it.
Creatine is available at any health food or supplement store, it's legal and widely available.
Creatine is available at any health food or supplement store, it's legal and widely available.
Yeah, that's true.
I live in Argentina and Modafinil can't be bought without a prescription. My doctor prescribed it to me (just for the sake of getting a discount when buying it, I was going to keep getting it from a shady pharmacist anyway)
I live in Argentina and Modafinil can't be bought without a prescription. My doctor prescribed it to me (just for the sake of getting a discount when buying it, I was going to keep getting it from a shady pharmacist anyway)
For anyone who is considering creatine, you need to be sure to properly hydrate. I am not aware of any cognitive benefits, there are most certainly physical benefits to it. Regardless though, if you are consistently taking creatine hydration is extremely important.
For the sake of sample accuracy -- I don't.
No creatine, but I'd like to profit of this occasion to tell people that suffer from allergies to try high doses (several grams 1) of vitamin C. This has been a life changer, I can now mow the lawn without symptoms where even with antihistamines it wasn't possible (last year my father had to do it for me).
I'm sharing it here because I wish I knew about vitamin C 30 years ago.
1- buy it in bulk powder form this will be much cheaper (I paid 38€ for 1 kg)
I'm sharing it here because I wish I knew about vitamin C 30 years ago.
1- buy it in bulk powder form this will be much cheaper (I paid 38€ for 1 kg)
Might as well jump in here with another approach (not suggesting yours doesn't work of coursE). Like you it sounds, I've been plagued by hayfever all my life (to the point where it's completely debilitating for a week or two each year and not as bad but still really bad for about 6-8 weeks total). Got fexofenadine this year for the first time (prescription in the UK, not OTC) and a couple of those per day has literally changed my life. I've went from having to take time off work to 99% normal. If the standard OTC stuff just isn't working give it a try. Worked instantly for me.
Yes, it helped me too. Unfortunately I discovered this so late. Now I do not take it regularly as my environment is mostly dust/allergen free now.
It's possible to overdose on Vit C. Please be careful.
Not really
It might have annoying effects but you can't "overdose" (sure, getting a large dose is still not recommended)
You can overdose on some fat-soluble vitamins, notably Vitamin A. And by overdose I mean you can die from it
It might have annoying effects but you can't "overdose" (sure, getting a large dose is still not recommended)
You can overdose on some fat-soluble vitamins, notably Vitamin A. And by overdose I mean you can die from it
It can give you the runs!
Actually it's not. You just pee it out.
Taking large amounts (more than 1,000mg per day) of vitamin C can cause stomach pain, diarrhoea, flatulence.
Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin...
Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin...
There's absolutely zero evidence that taking more than 100% of your daily required amount of any vitamin is effective for anything. Your body simply cannot absorb or make use of it. What you've described may very well be a placebo effect.
Take a daily supplement which ensures you are getting a sufficient amount, and nothing more. Anything beyond that is literally getting flushed down the toilet in your urine.
Take a daily supplement which ensures you are getting a sufficient amount, and nothing more. Anything beyond that is literally getting flushed down the toilet in your urine.
I know from experience that megadosing vitamin C is a sure fire way to get hot flushes and diarrhoea. Probably not the results people are after though!
> There's absolutely zero evidence that taking more than 100% of your daily required amount of any vitamin is effective for anything. Your body simply cannot absorb or make use of it.
I take your point, but I think it's important to say that this isn't strictly true. Your daily requirement is what you need for normal functioning, not what you can absorb.
For vitamin C, this isn't a huge distinction - it's water soluble, and the excess will be flushed, as you say. But for fat soluble vitamins, you absolutely can absorb more than a 100% dose. This is usually bad, and comes about from things like home overdosing or extremely narrow diets. It's occasionally medicinal, though, with something like isotretinoin being very similar to a major overdose of vitamin A.
I wouldn't suggest overdosing on vitamins to anyone unless a doctor tells you do, but it's worth noting that it does cause an effect - usually a bad one.
I take your point, but I think it's important to say that this isn't strictly true. Your daily requirement is what you need for normal functioning, not what you can absorb.
For vitamin C, this isn't a huge distinction - it's water soluble, and the excess will be flushed, as you say. But for fat soluble vitamins, you absolutely can absorb more than a 100% dose. This is usually bad, and comes about from things like home overdosing or extremely narrow diets. It's occasionally medicinal, though, with something like isotretinoin being very similar to a major overdose of vitamin A.
I wouldn't suggest overdosing on vitamins to anyone unless a doctor tells you do, but it's worth noting that it does cause an effect - usually a bad one.
You're parroting the official medical position which has not been revised in decades. There's a lot of opinions on the web based on incomplete science. I read a lot about it, and in the end decided to try it.
Who cares if it's a placebo, as long as it works I'm taking it.
For the record, homeopathy did absolutely nothing for me, so I'm not sure I have much of a placebo gullible body ;-)
Who cares if it's a placebo, as long as it works I'm taking it.
For the record, homeopathy did absolutely nothing for me, so I'm not sure I have much of a placebo gullible body ;-)
>You're parroting the official medical position which has not been revised in decades.
Yes, because it's proven basic science.
Yes, because it's proven basic science.
And I'm a living example disproving your basic science. Some days I can get by with 2 grams, some other days I need up to 10 grams to shut symptoms.
If it was a placebo, why would I need varying doses to suppress symptoms and why homeopathy didn't work as a placebo ?
Then explains me why vit C works better than regular medicine for my allergies (no symptom at all with vit C but they are just reduced by half with antihistamines).
If it was a placebo, why would I need varying doses to suppress symptoms and why homeopathy didn't work as a placebo ?
Then explains me why vit C works better than regular medicine for my allergies (no symptom at all with vit C but they are just reduced by half with antihistamines).
How high?
I could tell you but I'd rather you read about it and then make your own opinion. You will find anything and everything about vitamin C on the web : there's a lot of success stories of people that tried it and then some people that caution about some experiments in vitro that had some potential harmful effect.
But I didn't find (doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a single story about someone that had a problem with it. All the negativity is by people that didn't try.
But I didn't find (doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a single story about someone that had a problem with it. All the negativity is by people that didn't try.
I'm having good luck with caffeine + l-theanine + l-tyrosine.
I occasionally use nicergoline which I really like, however if I use it too many days and then skip, I get a headache - much like caffeine withdrawal.
At night I sometimes use rutaecarpine to deactivate any late-afternoon caffeine - though after a few days of continued use - it tends to render caffeine ineffective.
I occasionally use nicergoline which I really like, however if I use it too many days and then skip, I get a headache - much like caffeine withdrawal.
At night I sometimes use rutaecarpine to deactivate any late-afternoon caffeine - though after a few days of continued use - it tends to render caffeine ineffective.
I've tried a lot of nootropics and I have yet to find something that gives me any effect, at all. Either I'm a non-responder or I have too high expectations since I compare it to proper drugs. I'm used to being blown out of my mind and body when taking substances.
I have found creatine gives me much more energy. not specifically a brain supplement but it seems good overall.
I should add i don't eat much meat most of the the time, and i don't get enough sleep. So it may just be bringing me back to a normal.
I should add i don't eat much meat most of the the time, and i don't get enough sleep. So it may just be bringing me back to a normal.
DMAE and modafinil. Modafinil has very noticeable effects on alertness. DMAE is more subtle, but I think it improves focus, I feel like I type faster for example. Usually my fingers are very lazy otherwise.
I've heard there is research that it improves cognizance in dementia patients. Here's a google dork because I can't find what study I am talking about:
site:*.edu -intitle:muscle creatine dementia study
site:*.edu -intitle:muscle creatine dementia study
Just a tip: if you are specifically searching for papers, you can use https://scholar.google.com. this way you will find more than just American studies. Sci-hub helps with getting the papers if there isn't a source already.
Caffeine and walk breaks every hour or two work pretty well for me.
The legs help pump a lot of blood. That helps me think.
This is interesting! I only knew it as a muscle building supplement.
It's role is to store water inside your muscles, making them larger. I don't know of any effects on the brain and I would be cautious of taking something that it wasn't made for.
In saying that there's been a number of cases where pharmaceutical products were developed for one issue but the side effects ended up being the actual product.
I was taking a high load of creatine for body building six months after a major concussion (motorbike accident). I can't say that I noticed any change in brain function.
Where did you hear that creatine affects brain function?
It's role is to store water inside your muscles, making them larger. I don't know of any effects on the brain and I would be cautious of taking something that it wasn't made for.
In saying that there's been a number of cases where pharmaceutical products were developed for one issue but the side effects ended up being the actual product.
I was taking a high load of creatine for body building six months after a major concussion (motorbike accident). I can't say that I noticed any change in brain function.
Where did you hear that creatine affects brain function?
Creatine concentrations are highest by far in muscles, but it also distributes throughout the blood and brain.
Creatine phosphate is part of a reaction making ATP use effective (specifically: it allows rapid conversion of ADP to ATP during times of high demand). This is necessary for basic functioning - we synthesize creatine naturally and also absorb it from our diet. Supplementing it enables using muscles for a longer period without exhaustion, and helps you reach the boundaries of muscular strength before you reach energy limits.
The proposed mechanism of improved brain functioning is, interestingly, the same as the muscular mechanism. During times of high demand, creatine improves ATP regeneration rates. The ATP cycle happens the same way in the brain, so creatine can play the same role there. This claim is nothing new, it was for instance studied back in 2003 here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/pdf/1456...).
There's no mysterious second effect here - we know for certain that creatine plays the same role in the brain and muscles. (We also know what that effect is - it wouldn't have any relationship to physical damage sustained in a concussion.) The outstanding questions are whether improving ATP cycling in the brain has a meaningful impact on performance, and whether safe creatine supplementation changes neurological PCr levels enough to cause that benefit.
Creatine phosphate is part of a reaction making ATP use effective (specifically: it allows rapid conversion of ADP to ATP during times of high demand). This is necessary for basic functioning - we synthesize creatine naturally and also absorb it from our diet. Supplementing it enables using muscles for a longer period without exhaustion, and helps you reach the boundaries of muscular strength before you reach energy limits.
The proposed mechanism of improved brain functioning is, interestingly, the same as the muscular mechanism. During times of high demand, creatine improves ATP regeneration rates. The ATP cycle happens the same way in the brain, so creatine can play the same role there. This claim is nothing new, it was for instance studied back in 2003 here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/pdf/1456...).
There's no mysterious second effect here - we know for certain that creatine plays the same role in the brain and muscles. (We also know what that effect is - it wouldn't have any relationship to physical damage sustained in a concussion.) The outstanding questions are whether improving ATP cycling in the brain has a meaningful impact on performance, and whether safe creatine supplementation changes neurological PCr levels enough to cause that benefit.
If you're thinking of supplementing nootropics and haven't taken the time to seriously address sleep (quality and quantity), diet, and exercise, you're wasting your time and missing the biggest ROI variables. (After those three factors, I'd include regular meditation before even bothering with nootropics.)
That said, there are plenty of other well-documented benefits to creatine supplementation as documented on sites like examine.com (linked elsewhere in this thread).
That said, there are plenty of other well-documented benefits to creatine supplementation as documented on sites like examine.com (linked elsewhere in this thread).
That intelligence-boosting powder that's the basis for super-findings of gym broscience?
Creatine for physical exercise is not broscience, it has been shown to provide benefits. Whether it helps with cognitive functionality is not something I am familiar with.
Indeed. But many broscience PhDs are quite big on creatine, I heard.
earlier discussion (2010): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1198116