Visiting Chinese Megacities(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Visiting Chinese Megacities
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-12/10-chinese-megacities-to-see-before-you-die
112 comments
American tourists have an appalling reputation in most of the world, but I wouldn't take that as a reason not to visit America. Most of the stereotypes of Chinese tourists equally apply to Americans.
I think that in both cases, the causes are essentially the same - inexperience. American and Chinese people have very little vacation time. They're both big countries, so there's a lot to see and do domestically. It's quite normal for a European to have travelled abroad several times a year since childhood, but a very large proportion of American and Chinese tourists have little or no experience of international travel. A lack of experience and the desire to cram a lot into a short trip encourages large group tours, which are inherently more disruptive than independent travellers.
It's hard to be thoughtful and polite when you're being hustled from one Kodak moment to the next. It's hard to blend in with the locals when you're in a group of 30 foreign tourists. It's hard to pick up on the local etiquette when you've blasted through six countries in as many days; it's doubly hard when you're from an unusually extroverted culture.
Savvy Americans have started to leave the tour bus behind, learn the art of travel and buck the stereotypes. I'm sure that Chinese travellers will follow the same path.
I think that in both cases, the causes are essentially the same - inexperience. American and Chinese people have very little vacation time. They're both big countries, so there's a lot to see and do domestically. It's quite normal for a European to have travelled abroad several times a year since childhood, but a very large proportion of American and Chinese tourists have little or no experience of international travel. A lack of experience and the desire to cram a lot into a short trip encourages large group tours, which are inherently more disruptive than independent travellers.
It's hard to be thoughtful and polite when you're being hustled from one Kodak moment to the next. It's hard to blend in with the locals when you're in a group of 30 foreign tourists. It's hard to pick up on the local etiquette when you've blasted through six countries in as many days; it's doubly hard when you're from an unusually extroverted culture.
Savvy Americans have started to leave the tour bus behind, learn the art of travel and buck the stereotypes. I'm sure that Chinese travellers will follow the same path.
> Most of the stereotypes of Chinese tourists equally apply to Americans.
I'm sorry this is simply not true and I'd argue this well meaning anti-racist-to-the-point-of-delusion attitude that has been drilled into the heads of Westerners is part of the problem of why China as a nation hasn't made more serious efforts to teach its citizenry the very basics of common courtesy.
I've been in airport immigration queues and watched numerous different Chinese people blatantly (there isn't a strong enough word to fully describe the magnitude) cut into every single line they could....if there was the slightest of gaps, a Chinese person would be jumping into it, completely oblivious (or not, I'm suspicious) to the rude stares of others who are politely queuing. And I won't even get into volume of speaking, driving habits, adherence to laws related to fraud, etc.
One would think their fellow countrymen who know better would say something (if I saw a Canadian pulling this stunt he'd get a severe public shaming from me), but once again most Westerners would probably disagree with this, as the very notion of groups having a social responsibility for "policing themselves" is also considered "racist", as is even noticing blatantly obvious patterns in objective reality.
EDIT: Reminded me of this video:
Why BUY books in CHINA when you can read them for FREE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=950PYt9d1Po
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China.
I'm sorry this is simply not true and I'd argue this well meaning anti-racist-to-the-point-of-delusion attitude that has been drilled into the heads of Westerners is part of the problem of why China as a nation hasn't made more serious efforts to teach its citizenry the very basics of common courtesy.
I've been in airport immigration queues and watched numerous different Chinese people blatantly (there isn't a strong enough word to fully describe the magnitude) cut into every single line they could....if there was the slightest of gaps, a Chinese person would be jumping into it, completely oblivious (or not, I'm suspicious) to the rude stares of others who are politely queuing. And I won't even get into volume of speaking, driving habits, adherence to laws related to fraud, etc.
One would think their fellow countrymen who know better would say something (if I saw a Canadian pulling this stunt he'd get a severe public shaming from me), but once again most Westerners would probably disagree with this, as the very notion of groups having a social responsibility for "policing themselves" is also considered "racist", as is even noticing blatantly obvious patterns in objective reality.
EDIT: Reminded me of this video:
Why BUY books in CHINA when you can read them for FREE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=950PYt9d1Po
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China.
I'm sorry, but this simply is true.
While the Chinese tourists may be loud and assertive, Western tourists have have a colonial attitude and like to get into fights as well.
I've seen them yell at poor waiters because they couldn't understand English. You would think their follow countrymen would say something but instead they jeered along. Insulting them and making "ching-chong" noises (despite the fact that they were in SE Asia and their language is completely different than Chinese).
Oh, reminds me of this article:
Why BUY movies in the US when you can download them for FREE!
https://variety.com/2017/digital/news/piracy-survey-consumer...
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal...
While the Chinese tourists may be loud and assertive, Western tourists have have a colonial attitude and like to get into fights as well.
I've seen them yell at poor waiters because they couldn't understand English. You would think their follow countrymen would say something but instead they jeered along. Insulting them and making "ching-chong" noises (despite the fact that they were in SE Asia and their language is completely different than Chinese).
Oh, reminds me of this article:
Why BUY movies in the US when you can download them for FREE!
https://variety.com/2017/digital/news/piracy-survey-consumer...
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal...
> I'm sorry this is simply not true
It is true. There definitely is a stereotype that we are loud, obnoxious, etc. Everything people have been saying about the chinese tourist, people have been saying about americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)
But the chinese seem to be taking it to another level.
It is true. There definitely is a stereotype that we are loud, obnoxious, etc. Everything people have been saying about the chinese tourist, people have been saying about americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)
But the chinese seem to be taking it to another level.
I watched that video, the following comment was the most interesting observation for me (I'd want to research this more, but it's an interesting starting point):
Historically, because the oldest bookstore which called "新华书店“ in China is state-owned, they do not have the right to drive the customers away just because they can not buy the books. On the other hand, during that time(1940s), more than 85% of the population are illiterate, so the goverment encouraged people to read in the bookstore and deliberately pulled the price of books. Economically, because the bookstore in China is a collection of various other business projects, such as Tea bars, coffee shops, Stationery shops and so on(you can find these in the veido), so a large number of customer flows will generate huge business benefits. In fact, many bookstores in the UK also allow customers to do so. These are the reasons why this 'porblem' happend in China. I suggest you, please do a little investigation before making a rash judgment
Historically, because the oldest bookstore which called "新华书店“ in China is state-owned, they do not have the right to drive the customers away just because they can not buy the books. On the other hand, during that time(1940s), more than 85% of the population are illiterate, so the goverment encouraged people to read in the bookstore and deliberately pulled the price of books. Economically, because the bookstore in China is a collection of various other business projects, such as Tea bars, coffee shops, Stationery shops and so on(you can find these in the veido), so a large number of customer flows will generate huge business benefits. In fact, many bookstores in the UK also allow customers to do so. These are the reasons why this 'porblem' happend in China. I suggest you, please do a little investigation before making a rash judgment
> I suggest you, please do a little investigation before making a rash judgment
"types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China."
I wonder what the store looks like at the end of the day, do you think all the books are back in their places? Or, maybe just 3 or 4 have to be reshelved? :)
"types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China."
I wonder what the store looks like at the end of the day, do you think all the books are back in their places? Or, maybe just 3 or 4 have to be reshelved? :)
There's lot of behavior that would be "unthinkable" outside its home country.
I find it more interesting to try and understand the behavior than only criticize it.
I find it more interesting to try and understand the behavior than only criticize it.
Ask any European who lives or works in a major tourist destination. Many American tourists are wonderful, but the worst of the bunch are atrocious. The yahoo tourists openly mock the local culture, they ask for prices in dollars, they wear yoga pants and tank tops in cathedrals, they get offended when the locals don't speak English. It really isn't unusual to hear someone loudly complaining about how awful everything is and how much better things are in America.
Some American tourists seem to have the attitude that American culture is objectively correct and that the rest of the world is essentially a theme park with bad service. The "USA, USA, USA" attitude doesn't travel well. It's an attitude that quickly melts away after real immersion in a foreign culture, but unfortunately many Americans don't have that luxury.
It isn't a new problem - see this wonderful 1943 training film for American troops being stationed in Britain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyYSBBE1DFw
Some American tourists seem to have the attitude that American culture is objectively correct and that the rest of the world is essentially a theme park with bad service. The "USA, USA, USA" attitude doesn't travel well. It's an attitude that quickly melts away after real immersion in a foreign culture, but unfortunately many Americans don't have that luxury.
It isn't a new problem - see this wonderful 1943 training film for American troops being stationed in Britain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyYSBBE1DFw
The American yahoo is an old and usually correct stereotype, but I don't think you get how much "Chinese tourism" is it's own thing these days.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...
https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/why-are-ch...
http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/chinese-tourism-impact/ind...
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1671504/rude-awakenin...
It's not just hand-wavvy the same the same thing. Of course the title for who has the least bad manners isn't one to brag about.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...
https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/why-are-ch...
http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/chinese-tourism-impact/ind...
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1671504/rude-awakenin...
It's not just hand-wavvy the same the same thing. Of course the title for who has the least bad manners isn't one to brag about.
Chinese tourists in Thailand Buffet - All U Can Eat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBCLXZmMQNs
Children peeing and pooping on the floor on airlines (while being supervised by their parents)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0kj1AWSfc
Absolutely no shame. In some cases, you literally have to alter your society once Chinese tourists start to come in significant numbers, they are simply incompatible with many modern norms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBCLXZmMQNs
Children peeing and pooping on the floor on airlines (while being supervised by their parents)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0kj1AWSfc
Absolutely no shame. In some cases, you literally have to alter your society once Chinese tourists start to come in significant numbers, they are simply incompatible with many modern norms.
Wonderful video, thanks!
> Why BUY books in CHINA when you can read them for FREE!
I don't think that behavior is "unthinkable" outside China at all. Plenty of Americans read books in book stores. In fact, some bookstores even encourage that behavior by installing comfy chairs, couches, or coffee bars.
I don't think that behavior is "unthinkable" outside China at all. Plenty of Americans read books in book stores. In fact, some bookstores even encourage that behavior by installing comfy chairs, couches, or coffee bars.
It has nothing to do with group trips. Even the mainland Chinese living in Sydney are like this. Their kids who study abroad can be better. If anything the tourists are a bit more chill.
I can't speak to the Australian situation, but the vast numbers of Chinese students in the UK are predominantly polite and respectful. That's no mean feat when you consider the subtle, complex and rather passive-aggressive nature of British etiquette.
I don't say this often, but this is straight up racism. You're painting an enormous group of people with a lazy and ignorant stereotype.
It isn't racism at all, literally no one claims ethnically Chinese people from anywhere other than mainland China behave like this.
Some people have to think rather than just regurgitating propaganda, this is a real problem.
Some people have to think rather than just regurgitating propaganda, this is a real problem.
Nationality is a race now? Great, when I check the race box from now on I'll just put "United States!"
At least the queueing thing totally applies to people in China too. There's little queueing culture in many circumstances, so you either learn to shove ahead or you get left behind.
Queuing isn't the objectively correct way to wait for something, it's a specific cultural norm. Many cultures don't queue at all. Attitudes to queue-jumping vary widely, from being an immense faux pas to practically a sport. The British and Russians have a penchant for queuing-without-queuing, with each person keeping a mental note of the order in which everyone is waiting to be served.
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/everyone-line-up-canadas...
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/everyone-line-up-canadas...
IMO it's objectively superior! I'm fine with queuing-without-queuing as long as it's not abused. Queuing at least makes the order absolutely clear so that people can't as easily change the order, intentionally or accidentally.
I assume you're only pointing out that queuing-without-queuing is a thing, not defending queue-jumping or places where the lack of any ordered system means whoever is strongest pushes to the front.
I assume you're only pointing out that queuing-without-queuing is a thing, not defending queue-jumping or places where the lack of any ordered system means whoever is strongest pushes to the front.
Indeed, I wouldn't say it's objectively wrong, but it's a big culture shock and can leave you feeling pretty upset if you come from a place where queuing behavior is more regular. Especially since so much of China is so crowded, so having people go in front of you "unfairly" can really screw you over, not just set you back a couple of minutes.
Basic human ettiequte and decency is taught at home, at schools, and within the culture of society (e.g., Mr. Rogers neighborhood or Sesame Street on TV). I do notice that countries that have serious overcrowding, like mainland China, India, and probably other third-world countries, just do not bother or have no access to, or maybe just plain don't know any better.
I don't think this has anything to do with the lack of travel experience. It's just the way that they were brought up and perhaps in their village or town it's just like that.
I don't think this has anything to do with the lack of travel experience. It's just the way that they were brought up and perhaps in their village or town it's just like that.
By far the biggest reason why Chinese tourists act the way they do is because most of them are not even one generation removed from the villages. Most have not gone to university, maybe not even high school. Westerners can look down their noses all they want but when their countries were 70% agrarian, most people were pretty uncouth too.
Culture changes. Once two generations of Chinese have lived in affluent urban settings, their manners will converge with those of other developed countries.
Culture changes. Once two generations of Chinese have lived in affluent urban settings, their manners will converge with those of other developed countries.
There's no such thing as human etiquette, only a specific culture's etiquette. Many behaviours that are perfectly normal in your culture would be unspeakably rude in mine and vice-versa. From the perspective of my overcrowded island in the north Atlantic, Americans are often unbearably loud and brash; to Americans, we often come across as cold, distant and unfriendly. Travel is a skill that has to be learned - we aren't born with the ability to quickly acclimatise to different cultures.
> There's no such thing as human etiquette, only a specific culture's etiquette.
Please, name the cultures that consider defecating in public (sidewalks, shopping malls, airplane aisles) to be normal behavior when there is a washroom less than 1 minute walk away.
Please, name the cultures that consider defecating in public (sidewalks, shopping malls, airplane aisles) to be normal behavior when there is a washroom less than 1 minute walk away.
For this specific issue, open defecation is actually considered "normal" behavior in many less developed countries (particularly in impoverished areas). This is indeed a health concern; from what I understand, reducing open defecation is a big goal for global health organizations, and countries such as India (where open defecation is unfortunately common, and I definitely witnessed plenty of when I went many years ago) have made large information campaigns to try and discourage the practice.
From the little I can Google (http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/china/people-practicing-open...), it appears that open defecation was possibly more accepted in China, particularly in rural areas, 30 years ago. It looks like China has made a lot of progress regarding sanitation and reducing this practice, which is good. Still, I bet there's still some leftover bad habits, which may carry over to some of the tourist mishaps.
From the little I can Google (http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/china/people-practicing-open...), it appears that open defecation was possibly more accepted in China, particularly in rural areas, 30 years ago. It looks like China has made a lot of progress regarding sanitation and reducing this practice, which is good. Still, I bet there's still some leftover bad habits, which may carry over to some of the tourist mishaps.
In these countries, is open defecation common as a preference, or because of lack of clean toilet facilities (India, for example, has made some efforts to install public facilities, but from what I've read they are so disgusting due to lack of maintenance, resorting to using the field is the only option).
And before I'll consider the notion that "There's no such thing as human etiquette, only a specific culture's etiquette.", I think I'm going to have to see wealthy people from some other cultures with similar behavior. Until then, my worldview is going to be based on observable reality over optimistic but baseless theories.
The premise that the cultural revolution had literally no lasting effect on anyone is an extraordinary claim, and you know what they say about extraordinary claims...
And before I'll consider the notion that "There's no such thing as human etiquette, only a specific culture's etiquette.", I think I'm going to have to see wealthy people from some other cultures with similar behavior. Until then, my worldview is going to be based on observable reality over optimistic but baseless theories.
The premise that the cultural revolution had literally no lasting effect on anyone is an extraordinary claim, and you know what they say about extraordinary claims...
It's difficult for me to comment on those cultures too extensively since I don't live there; some articles like this -- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27775327 -- mention "ingrained cultural norms" though.
I get the impression from forums, articles, etc. that while open defecation does happen in China, it is "culturally" only really acceptable in their country for little kids. That's a big difference to the rest of the world, where nappies / diapers are more prevalent (I can't think of another country with open-crotch pants, eg kaidangku, for children like China). But my impression is nowadays that in China parents who use kaidangku are generally thought of as "peasants" / "old fashioned" / etc.
And yes I agree that it's possible that the hangover from the cultural revolution may explain a little bit about the "lack of manners" aspect of the Chinese tourist stereotype.
I get the impression from forums, articles, etc. that while open defecation does happen in China, it is "culturally" only really acceptable in their country for little kids. That's a big difference to the rest of the world, where nappies / diapers are more prevalent (I can't think of another country with open-crotch pants, eg kaidangku, for children like China). But my impression is nowadays that in China parents who use kaidangku are generally thought of as "peasants" / "old fashioned" / etc.
And yes I agree that it's possible that the hangover from the cultural revolution may explain a little bit about the "lack of manners" aspect of the Chinese tourist stereotype.
If you can afford to fly international, carry a $2000 purse, and drive a Mercedes, I'm sorry but "not knowing any better" gets a little old after a while.
If race wasn't a component of this discussion there's no way people would be willing to go through the mental gymnastics required to constantly find a new excuse for this being in no way whatsoever the fault of the "public pooping supervisor".
I suspect this same anti-racism-at-whatever-measure is what makes financial fraud so easy as well.
If race wasn't a component of this discussion there's no way people would be willing to go through the mental gymnastics required to constantly find a new excuse for this being in no way whatsoever the fault of the "public pooping supervisor".
I suspect this same anti-racism-at-whatever-measure is what makes financial fraud so easy as well.
I have experiences with the same type of behavior in India, and a lot of it has got to do with the highly competitive and crowded environment here. If you want access to government services/get served by staff/get onto a bus etc. you will need to be prepared to jostle your way through and be louder than everyone else. 'Personal Space' isn't really a concept that is prevalent here.
This manifests itself in some annoying behaviors like jumping queues, or rushing out of your seats as soon as a plane lands, but also gives rise to some great features - people are rarely wary of strangers, and seem to be more likely to share things or help out one another. Either way, this hardly seems like a deal breaker in deciding what places to visit. There are a lot of factors - natural beauty, history, culture, food, economic development, etc. that are arguably a lot more important.
This manifests itself in some annoying behaviors like jumping queues, or rushing out of your seats as soon as a plane lands, but also gives rise to some great features - people are rarely wary of strangers, and seem to be more likely to share things or help out one another. Either way, this hardly seems like a deal breaker in deciding what places to visit. There are a lot of factors - natural beauty, history, culture, food, economic development, etc. that are arguably a lot more important.
I can't recall a single instance of an Indian person doing this anywhere in the world I've been to (I haven't been to India itself), leading me to believe they are conscious of their behavior, unlike Chinese mainlanders where it seems to be unconscious instinct.
Most immigrants strive to fit in with those aspects of the host culture that they appreciate.
Every immigrant to the US changes their behavior: don't litter, obey traffic rules, stand in the queue, it's okay to smile at strangers etc because they see that everyone else is doing it and it makes life better.
However, this article is about tourists who have no stake in fitting in and will be on a plane back home in a few days.
However, this article is about tourists who have no stake in fitting in and will be on a plane back home in a few days.
The Indians outside of India are most probably not tourists. India is yet to gain Chinese level wealth. Unfortunately a trip to India would tarnish your image of us. It's a crowded third world country with third world facilities.
Most of those annoying and stupid individuals are from the so called China's Lost Generation. I found the following video made by two westerners explains the reasons in a pretty accurate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Dh2gFX4Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Dh2gFX4Mg
The guys in the video are mostly correct.
The problems with the lost generation are sophisticated, partially caused by the lack of education, but also the wrecked economy at Mao's era, worse than that of North Korea these days. Even worse, Mao blindly followed Russia to encourage baby booming, and there were consecutive 3-year natural disasters around 1960, consequently all these caused severe national wide food shortage. Lots of people died of starvation, for the rest, they had to do everything to just survive, regardless the means were either moral or evil. That's where the lost generation came from. Would they care Confucius? of cause not, part of Mao's culture r8n actually encouraged them to somehow not to believe in the traditional culture, of many that includes Confucius.
Fast forward to now, people of the lost generation are mostly retired and free, and some also have the money to tour around, definitely not all, but given the overall population that's a huge number of people, especially when compared to other places in the world, no wonder they were called locust in HK.
Luckily, things improved a lot, both the education system and economy wise, that's why you can see the young generation, who you probably communicated with, are mostly kind, or at least much better compared to the lost generation, and they'll bring even better education and economy to the following generations. I'm holding a good faith, and hopefully so are you.
The problems with the lost generation are sophisticated, partially caused by the lack of education, but also the wrecked economy at Mao's era, worse than that of North Korea these days. Even worse, Mao blindly followed Russia to encourage baby booming, and there were consecutive 3-year natural disasters around 1960, consequently all these caused severe national wide food shortage. Lots of people died of starvation, for the rest, they had to do everything to just survive, regardless the means were either moral or evil. That's where the lost generation came from. Would they care Confucius? of cause not, part of Mao's culture r8n actually encouraged them to somehow not to believe in the traditional culture, of many that includes Confucius.
Fast forward to now, people of the lost generation are mostly retired and free, and some also have the money to tour around, definitely not all, but given the overall population that's a huge number of people, especially when compared to other places in the world, no wonder they were called locust in HK.
Luckily, things improved a lot, both the education system and economy wise, that's why you can see the young generation, who you probably communicated with, are mostly kind, or at least much better compared to the lost generation, and they'll bring even better education and economy to the following generations. I'm holding a good faith, and hopefully so are you.
That's a very interesting video, I had no idea part of "the lost generation" culture was that they were explicitly taught an attitude of arrogance, "we can do whatever we want, there are no rules". Matches reality very well.
Shoutout to the whole ADV China channel. As an expat in Hong Kong that rides motorcycles, I enjoy their stuff a lot.
can't wait for their upcoming conquering northern china series.
That is a great link. Very interesting to a possible future visitor. But to be honest, the more I hear the less inclined to go I am.
It's not unique to Thailand. HKGers hate them (mainlanders) too, locust they are referred to. Invasion of personal space is another issue, when they do queue they practically breathe on your neck, or worse sneeze as they havent heard of holding their mouth. Btw, also living in Thailand.
I don't think there is any deliberate malice in it, but consideration for themselves and their family only and solely, is evident and consistent, this aint a bad apple issue. The tour operators and charter flight providers could do more prearrival education in my opinion, fake modern manners for all I care.
I feel very sorry for flight attendants in asia, always a good chat about the subject if sat opposite jump seat
I don't think there is any deliberate malice in it, but consideration for themselves and their family only and solely, is evident and consistent, this aint a bad apple issue. The tour operators and charter flight providers could do more prearrival education in my opinion, fake modern manners for all I care.
I feel very sorry for flight attendants in asia, always a good chat about the subject if sat opposite jump seat
Disliking the mainland is part of Hong Kong's identity. While initially shocking if you go back and forth enough you start appreciating the lesser rules of the mainland and realize that HK is still quite colonial. And while mainlanders won't say "yes sir", or speak English, they are generally quite friendly, curious and genuine. Of course a sense of humor often also helps.
In London with the family. Spent the day at the British Museum. Full of people from all over the world. It was crowded. However if an path was blocked it was Chinese tour group with no regard for the others around them. The tour groups from other nations kept a clear path. It's really sad that such a rich culture with a rich history has such lost generation of rude people.
Nope, this is a pretty good summary of all Chinese tourists and, for the most part, a good summary of what it's like getting around China.
As others have said though, I wouldn't let this put you off visiting China. There are some really incredible places in China, and most people are really, really friendly. Most of the time, people are more than willing to help you out, especially if you're white (sad, but true). And as long as you don't go during Chinese holidays (Feb or Oct) then it won't be too bad travelling around the country.
As others have said though, I wouldn't let this put you off visiting China. There are some really incredible places in China, and most people are really, really friendly. Most of the time, people are more than willing to help you out, especially if you're white (sad, but true). And as long as you don't go during Chinese holidays (Feb or Oct) then it won't be too bad travelling around the country.
> my experience with Chinese tourists has turned me off visiting the mainland completely.
Don't let this keep you from visiting mainland China. Tourists from most countries seem to be far more asshole-ish than locals in general.
I went to China in 2011 (Shaighai – Xiamen – Hong Kong) and it was a great experience.
Don't let this keep you from visiting mainland China. Tourists from most countries seem to be far more asshole-ish than locals in general.
I went to China in 2011 (Shaighai – Xiamen – Hong Kong) and it was a great experience.
My theory is that for some reason the class of Chinese people who can afford to travel to western countries somehow enriches for ones who are somewhat rude.
As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I can totally relate to how you feel about Mainland tourists. But that said, I love visiting China, most people there are extremely friendly and helpful. Sure, you might see some weird things once in a while, but you see that everywhere. The misbehaving Chinese tourists shouldn't keep you from visiting China.
It's a massive country with a lot of different groups of people. They're not all the same.
It's a massive country with a lot of different groups of people. They're not all the same.
Also living in HK and used to live in Guangzhou. Most of the time you wouldn't know if you were stood next to someone from China or HK on the MTR. However, I do find it kinda funny when a loud, obnoxious, suitcase wielding tourist steps onto the train and you can see people thinking to themselves "Yep, mainlander". Or maybe that's just me, who knows.
If you get outside the cities, you will meet a ton of genuinely friendly, interesting people. City life in China is rather... Mercenary.
(nb- I may be a poor judge, as I don't particularly enjoy living in cities anywhere, regardless of continent.)
(nb2- I used to live on the outskirts of Vientiane, Laos, and loved it. Except for the monkeys. And the fact that that half my family loves durian. But that is a subject for a different post.)
(nb- I may be a poor judge, as I don't particularly enjoy living in cities anywhere, regardless of continent.)
(nb2- I used to live on the outskirts of Vientiane, Laos, and loved it. Except for the monkeys. And the fact that that half my family loves durian. But that is a subject for a different post.)
I've seen this exact thing during my travels all over Europe. While on a train in Norway I watched a tiny older Chinese lady push over a young British woman in order to get to the window so she could take a picture.
Took my family to Thailand two years ago and we (2 generations born and raised in No.3 on the city list) were surprised too, literally had to extend our stay in Koh Samui island to avoid the shame from fellow Chinese speakers in Bangkok..
This opinion is probably the single greatest unifier I've experienced when visiting different countries.
Possibly, but where I live we get the same sort of tourists from China. I'd love to see some of the more interesting parts of Chinese history in person, but I'm not entirely sure I want to brave a whole lot of people acting like that to get to them.
Does anyone know if the Chinese government has done any public education campaign on the issue? It often seems as mainlanders just don't know — they'll literally spit on the floor of a bus.
I think we should remember that although this may be the case today, cultures of the younger generation can change quickly. Also, although you haven’t explicitly stated this, it can be extremely easy to dismiss or judge a whole country based on this, so make sure to keep an open mind.
This is how I feel about Australia.
All of the Australians I have seen in SE Asia are sex tourists so I can't help but wonder if it's just the type Australian tourists that visit SE Asia and Australia would be different, but its just not a risk i'm willing to take.
All of the Australians I have seen in SE Asia are sex tourists so I can't help but wonder if it's just the type Australian tourists that visit SE Asia and Australia would be different, but its just not a risk i'm willing to take.
I don't agree with you. Here in the UK most of the Chinese tourists we get here are perfectly fine and don't display any of the behavior you've spoken about.
They are probably just too excited for the first time abroad. Eventually we all get bored.
I wonder who's loss it is that you don't visit due to a potential minor inconvenience.
For an idea of how these cities look here are some drone shots:
Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKLrmi5eOn8
Shanghai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cC-j4_NtvE
Guangzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlN1_ANaJs
Chongqing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07dWi-MJReM
Shenyang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGBSpoTXZmw
Suzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXLMS-miKU
Dalian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeEJNNMcR1s
Zhengzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOlUYfM310
Chengdu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwVQ4Jb1zc
Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKLrmi5eOn8
Shanghai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cC-j4_NtvE
Guangzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlN1_ANaJs
Chongqing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07dWi-MJReM
Shenyang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGBSpoTXZmw
Suzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXLMS-miKU
Dalian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeEJNNMcR1s
Zhengzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOlUYfM310
Chengdu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwVQ4Jb1zc
I was pleasantly surprised by this article after being primed by the click-baity "listicle" title.
One claim that stuck out to me:
> [As several hundred million people moved from the countryside into urban areas] ... Wages and living standards have risen to create the biggest rapid boost in prosperity the world has seen, ever.
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this? What other times in human history would be in the running for this "title"?
One claim that stuck out to me:
> [As several hundred million people moved from the countryside into urban areas] ... Wages and living standards have risen to create the biggest rapid boost in prosperity the world has seen, ever.
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this? What other times in human history would be in the running for this "title"?
> Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this? What other times in human history would be in the running for this "title"?
The only comparable time is when US industrialized and we went from agrarian to urban/industrial in a matter of few decades and became the largest economy in the world by the late 1800s.
But what china has done is US on steroids. In the past 40 years, china has created 100 cities with more than 1 million people. To put that into perspective, we have 10 cities with 1 million or more people in the US. They went mostly rural to half urban in 40 years. In the next 10 years, china is expected to create another 100 cities with more than 1 million people. Think about that. Here is a short world economic forum video about china's urbanization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0V3gxyU55Q
As for the wealth, look at the GDP growth the past few decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China
They went from poverty and famine in the 50s/60s to the largest GDP in the world in PPP terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
And the 2nd largest economy in nominal terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
The only comparable time is when US industrialized and we went from agrarian to urban/industrial in a matter of few decades and became the largest economy in the world by the late 1800s.
But what china has done is US on steroids. In the past 40 years, china has created 100 cities with more than 1 million people. To put that into perspective, we have 10 cities with 1 million or more people in the US. They went mostly rural to half urban in 40 years. In the next 10 years, china is expected to create another 100 cities with more than 1 million people. Think about that. Here is a short world economic forum video about china's urbanization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0V3gxyU55Q
As for the wealth, look at the GDP growth the past few decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China
They went from poverty and famine in the 50s/60s to the largest GDP in the world in PPP terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
And the 2nd largest economy in nominal terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
The Great Divergence (aka the Industrial Revolution's impact on GDP) is the obvious candidate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence
But the population of Europe at the time or even America is only a fraction of China's, and the speed of China's growth has been even more spectacular. It took Britain ~50 years to double GDP between 1840 and 1890: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biaroch_European_GDP_per_...
While China tripled their GDP/capita (both US$ and PPP) in a bit over 10: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/sites/default/files/interprete...
But the population of Europe at the time or even America is only a fraction of China's, and the speed of China's growth has been even more spectacular. It took Britain ~50 years to double GDP between 1840 and 1890: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biaroch_European_GDP_per_...
While China tripled their GDP/capita (both US$ and PPP) in a bit over 10: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/sites/default/files/interprete...
Doubling GDP in 50 years is not a lot. 1.4 percent annually compounded will do that. The US postwar boom might be a better comparison.
Looking at those charts it looks like that previous doubling of UK GDP took ~350 years.
Those charts are GDP per capita; the population also increased in this time
Post-war Europe and Japan. One could argue that post-war china is basically on the same trajectory, just that it got started much later and so shot up much quicker once it did get started.
Been to a few of these cities a couple of times. The development and culture is amazing to see. The Shanghai museum is well curated, dongzhimen st. in Beijing is great for food. Vegetarian food isn't too hard to come by if you're ok with eggs. Monks are vegetarian, and if you can find a Buddhist temple, ask them about food.
Need to make it to Shenzhen, and Chengdu sometime!
Need to make it to Shenzhen, and Chengdu sometime!
The world will be a better place when we strap vr goggles on these chinese tourists and keep them home.
Zhengzhou most definitely was never a ghost city, being one of China's 8 ancient capitals. Maybe they meant zhengdong? Ghost cities in china are almost always underpopulated districts of existing large cities.
Zhengzhou was a ghost city and hasn't been a capital for more than 2000 years. Its developing to major city in China in the modern sense only begins in 20th century, after the railway traffic prosperous here.
They do exist. http://daxfohl.blogspot.com/2008/05/week-4-great-ride-giving...
But I agree Zhengzhou is not one of them.
But I agree Zhengzhou is not one of them.
> Shenyang has Japanese modernist architecture from the 1930s, and the city's economy is in retreat, somewhat akin to America's Rust Belt. Maybe you've never heard of Shenyang, but the broader surrounding municipality has more than eight million people, making it more populous than many countries.
Shenyang is great, and it is kind of criminal not to mention that Shenyang is the old capital of Qing empire. You should visit the imperial palace. It is distinctively different from Forbidden City of Beijing.
Shenyang is great, and it is kind of criminal not to mention that Shenyang is the old capital of Qing empire. You should visit the imperial palace. It is distinctively different from Forbidden City of Beijing.
No, it is not great. It is more like Detroit in the US - bad weather, high unemployment rate and crime rate, dead heavy industry, huge outflow of its local population.
If Shenyang is great, how come its population is dropping so fast?
If Shenyang is great, how come its population is dropping so fast?
I like Detroit. Okay, fine, no I don't. But I live in Michigan and love the rest of it. Low cost of living, great schools, reasonable opportunity for educated workers. And I love the weather. Great for all seasons of outdoor activity.
I'm curious if Liaoning (outside Shenyang) is the same way. (I've had a long-running fascination with HeiLongJiang for reasons I don't understand myself, though I've never been there)
I'm curious if Liaoning (outside Shenyang) is the same way. (I've had a long-running fascination with HeiLongJiang for reasons I don't understand myself, though I've never been there)
Being from Liaoning but never been to Michigan, I must say it's not half as good as the Michigan you described.
Well, save up some money on the coast, then move to (Western or Northern) Michigan some day and live like a king. Okay, eating out can be hit-or-miss (mostly miss), but some diamonds-in-the-rough do exist. Outdoors is great. I mean if ascending whatever-K feet is the only qualifier then outdoors sucks, but seriously everything else here, outdoors is great. Four seasons is like being able to annually travel between four completely different regions of the world without actually moving. And if you have a decent salary, get yourself some awesome snow moving equipment, just to feel cool.
Detroit had this extreme weather of almost -30°C, it is just scary to even think about that. Liaoning has the same issue with the lowest on record being -34°C.
If you are interested in the North-East part of China, there is a western travellers made documentary coming soon, it is called Conquering Northern China made by a British South African and an American.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYMZK89XHg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/205422728/conquering-no...
If you are interested in the North-East part of China, there is a western travellers made documentary coming soon, it is called Conquering Northern China made by a British South African and an American.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYMZK89XHg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/205422728/conquering-no...
I took a bus from Changchun to Harbin once and watched the mercury outside drop from a balmy -18C to -35C, damn. So not Liaoning, but north of it.
I meant great as a tourist. It probably isn't that great to live.
Detroit is a good comparison but perhaps apart from one thing: Shenyang has BMW's state-of-the-art factory that produces the new 5 series (and soon the new X3). Auto industry is one of the few highlights that actually thrives in Shenyang. Type in keywords 'new bmw 5 series production' you get footage from this factory. They even use exoskeletons. Pretty cool.
The joint venture is called BMW Brilliance, with the local partner being Brilliance Auto, which is arguably the worst of the worst Chinese automobile companies. I'd personally try everything possible to avoid anything from that Brilliance Auto. Sure, their joint venture with BMW is a slightly different story, BMW must have all its state-of-the-art quality control there. I also fully understand that the joint venture is there purely because the Chinese regulations requires such an arrangement. However, from a consumer's point of view, when buying an expensive car like BMW, why should I bear such risk to have the Brilliance Auto involved?
In case if you don't know what Brilliance Auto is doing in Shengyang, feel free to watch the video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak-qVkW888k
In case if you don't know what Brilliance Auto is doing in Shengyang, feel free to watch the video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak-qVkW888k
Mostly agreed. But I would say those are still BMWs. There's no evidence that shows they are much worse than imported ones in terms of quality.
The issue is when someone is paying a premium price for something like BMW, why should the person bear the potential risk of having the quality negatively affected because this infamous Brilliance Auto is suddenly involved.
I don't have any problem buying a Mercedes-Benz made in Beijing or a Volkswagen made in Shanghai with their local partners (BAIC and SAIC).
I don't have any problem buying a Mercedes-Benz made in Beijing or a Volkswagen made in Shanghai with their local partners (BAIC and SAIC).
> If you watch the Chinese making pilgrimages to Qufu, the burial site of Confucius, you'll learn just how strong the long-term continuity of their history is.
Qufu is highly recommended. It is the holy city with continuity streteching back at least a thousand years, visited by many emperors from different dynasties.
A similar site is Ise Grand Shrine in Japan.
Qufu is highly recommended. It is the holy city with continuity streteching back at least a thousand years, visited by many emperors from different dynasties.
A similar site is Ise Grand Shrine in Japan.
Article claims 10, but I counted 12. My CN geography is good enough to know that Yunnan and Sichuan are provinces, but maybe some of the proper nouns were too. Anyway here are the ones I counted. Any errors?
1. Kunming (Yunnan)
2. Chongqing
3. Qingdao
4. Zhengzhou
5. Xian
6. Nanjing
7. Dalian
8. Shenyang
9. Chengdu (Sichuan)
10. Qufu
11. Beijing
12. Shanghai
London, New York and Paris (not China IIRC)
Does anyone know google maps (or whatever) well enough to make a URL with markers for all these?
1. Kunming (Yunnan)
2. Chongqing
3. Qingdao
4. Zhengzhou
5. Xian
6. Nanjing
7. Dalian
8. Shenyang
9. Chengdu (Sichuan)
10. Qufu
11. Beijing
12. Shanghai
London, New York and Paris (not China IIRC)
Does anyone know google maps (or whatever) well enough to make a URL with markers for all these?
I think the intent is not to include Chengdu and Qufu. Chengdu is not described as a destination (just for cuisine), and Qufu is not a megacity.
Chengdu is a great city to visit, if only as a starting to point to sichuan's awesome Tibetan highlands (and see the pandas on the way out).
I'm not really into Chinese cities in general, they seem to blend together in typical ways. They are just spring boards to the real adventures.
I'm not really into Chinese cities in general, they seem to blend together in typical ways. They are just spring boards to the real adventures.
> … to make a URL with markers for all these?
Here ya go: https://goo.gl/t6pdMt
Here ya go: https://goo.gl/t6pdMt
Guangzhou didn't make the cut. Perhaps too obvious a choice but it's easily one of my favorite cities.
Great weather, cosmopolitan population, good food and close to HK. Plus feels more chill than other cities.
Great weather, cosmopolitan population, good food and close to HK. Plus feels more chill than other cities.
They also left out Xinjiang, and while it doesn't have a Tier-1/Tier-2 city in it, if you want to see the diversity of China, Gansu or Xinjiang are good. Heavy security, but radically different landscape, food, and ethnic culture, especially in the South. Oh, and less humid, blue skies, more breathable air.
I spent the July 4th holiday week there (and yes, it is relatively safe).
Nanning is also surprisingly upscale, after going to the rural areas of Guilin, I didn't expect Nanning to be so well developed.
Shanghai is always my first love. Truly "mega", good infra, good food, etc.
I spent the July 4th holiday week there (and yes, it is relatively safe).
Nanning is also surprisingly upscale, after going to the rural areas of Guilin, I didn't expect Nanning to be so well developed.
Shanghai is always my first love. Truly "mega", good infra, good food, etc.
I've been to Urumqi in 2006 and it wasn't that bad, a very standard Chinese city with some cool nightmarkets and mosques. There are no other mega cities to speak of, I haven't been to kashgar before.
Nanning is pretty meh, but then so are most of the cities on this list :). Liuzhou is much more interesting, as it is stuck between Guilin and nanning both geographically and in feeling (big city with embedded karst mountains and not many tourists).
Nanning is pretty meh, but then so are most of the cities on this list :). Liuzhou is much more interesting, as it is stuck between Guilin and nanning both geographically and in feeling (big city with embedded karst mountains and not many tourists).
I went to Yangshuo before Nanning, it's a little more confining and touristy but mostly Shanghainese, not Westerners. Turpan is like a cross between Urumqi and Kashgar, in the sense that it has a high uighur population, much more uighur culture and architecture, but still identifiably a Chinese city. Also, many Uighurs in that area tend to speak surprisingly good English, which is good because their Mandarin accent can be a bit thick,
To me, when you get to Kashgar you start to feel more like you're Central Asia.
To me, when you get to Kashgar you start to feel more like you're Central Asia.
Yangshuo has more westerners than other places. If you find yourself in gunagxi again, definitely check out liuzhou, it's Guilin's grittier twin.
I'd like to visit Kashgar someday. Northern xinjiang was really nice to tour around also, except they didn't let me out of the van when we reached the khazakistan border (no foreigners allowed).
I'd like to visit Kashgar someday. Northern xinjiang was really nice to tour around also, except they didn't let me out of the van when we reached the khazakistan border (no foreigners allowed).
Yeah, you need a special permit now if you don't have a Chinese ID, even of you want to visit Koktokay, a recently added restriction. Our tourguide managed to hustle us in by promising he would bring us back to the gate upon leaving, proving that we had not crossed the border I guess. But he told us that was probably the last tour he ever does to Koktokay.
I've lived in China for 16 years and been to nearly all the cities mentioned in the article plus many more. I agree they are interesting to visit, however for different reasons. Personally I have little tolerance for the east coast cities for all but a whirlwind visit, generally being too large and natureless to justify an extended stay.
The great things you can see are random new architecture (a highly successful architect friend of mine recently described China as a "playground for architects"), old stuff (though increasingly fake / rebuilt - if you are a real history buff you need to do some research to find the less visited sites), interesting and highly regionally varied food, and almost total street-level safety.
Things that can be not so fun: transportation crushes, higher prices (it is no longer cheap to travel here), communications and cultural issues, general lack of tourism infrastructure or infrastructure limited to handful of sites with a mass tourism focus.
Personally I prefer the smaller towns, natural areas, and obscure cultural attractions like locally preserved architecture, performance traditions and wacky foods.
Overall it's a very interesting country and worth a look, though if you have a very picky diet (eg. vegan), a weak stomach or constitution, or tire easily it may not be the destination of choice.
Anyone from HN passing through Shenzhen is welcome to hit me up for a beer!
The great things you can see are random new architecture (a highly successful architect friend of mine recently described China as a "playground for architects"), old stuff (though increasingly fake / rebuilt - if you are a real history buff you need to do some research to find the less visited sites), interesting and highly regionally varied food, and almost total street-level safety.
Things that can be not so fun: transportation crushes, higher prices (it is no longer cheap to travel here), communications and cultural issues, general lack of tourism infrastructure or infrastructure limited to handful of sites with a mass tourism focus.
Personally I prefer the smaller towns, natural areas, and obscure cultural attractions like locally preserved architecture, performance traditions and wacky foods.
Overall it's a very interesting country and worth a look, though if you have a very picky diet (eg. vegan), a weak stomach or constitution, or tire easily it may not be the destination of choice.
Anyone from HN passing through Shenzhen is welcome to hit me up for a beer!
Hi Walter,
I'm a fellow founder based in SZ, it would be great to get in contact. Your Myanmar-focused financial services startup sounds interesting. I always try to meet anyone doing something I find interesting :)
Could you drop me an email at [email protected]? Any other HN readers based in SZ, also feel free to reach out :)
I'm a fellow founder based in SZ, it would be great to get in contact. Your Myanmar-focused financial services startup sounds interesting. I always try to meet anyone doing something I find interesting :)
Could you drop me an email at [email protected]? Any other HN readers based in SZ, also feel free to reach out :)
Hi, are you living there all the time? I'm visiting the city from time to time.
After living in Hong Kong for a while, what stood out to me the most – compared to European cities – was the lack of traditional cultural elements in the form of museums, theaters, art or architecture. Guangzhou seemed the same, just must more poor. Entertainment is almost ironically fully consumerist or decadent in communist terminology.
There's a fair amount of museums, interesting areas and elaborate buildings in Shenzhen. But it's not like Europe where everything is in one place, it's a huge city. I don't think HK is very strong at public things, except national parks and to some extent transport.
Can anyone weigh in via personal experience: how much Chinese would I need to learn to avoid getting pigeonholed to tourist areas in these cities? Is Mandarin spoken pretty uniformly?
I'd love to go, and have used google translate extensively, but am concerned about not being able to read signs. I agree that travel should be challenging, but not to the degree that it kills the experience.
I'd love to go, and have used google translate extensively, but am concerned about not being able to read signs. I agree that travel should be challenging, but not to the degree that it kills the experience.
All road signs have pinyin (Romanised pinyin). The usefulness is limited as it lacks tones, but is something you can get used to.
GPS is in everything. So hailing a taxi via an app is a not huge issue largely. And wherever you go you can use Baidu maps to tell you where you are vs. where you need to be.
Subways are fine for an English speaker, as long as you know where you're going and check the interchange. Rush hours may be a little crowded.
As long as you've done your research where you want to go, you should be OK. Wouldn't do it with family until getting used to doing so for a few days. eChinaCities should be avoided as their despite their Google et al search listings being very high, are mainly paid content. Find a website local for the city, e.g. is in Beijing then thebeijinger.com should be fine.
Do not follow someone with good English pretending to take you somewhere like a tea shop, restaurant or art gallery, or really anywhere. Don't say the nation you're from, just be assertive in refusal.
Have been in China for a few years in a few cities, mainly north.
GPS is in everything. So hailing a taxi via an app is a not huge issue largely. And wherever you go you can use Baidu maps to tell you where you are vs. where you need to be.
Subways are fine for an English speaker, as long as you know where you're going and check the interchange. Rush hours may be a little crowded.
As long as you've done your research where you want to go, you should be OK. Wouldn't do it with family until getting used to doing so for a few days. eChinaCities should be avoided as their despite their Google et al search listings being very high, are mainly paid content. Find a website local for the city, e.g. is in Beijing then thebeijinger.com should be fine.
Do not follow someone with good English pretending to take you somewhere like a tea shop, restaurant or art gallery, or really anywhere. Don't say the nation you're from, just be assertive in refusal.
Have been in China for a few years in a few cities, mainly north.
"Can anyone weigh in via personal experience: how much Chinese would I need to learn to avoid getting pigeonholed to tourist areas in these cities? Is Mandarin spoken pretty uniformly?"
I think this depends more on the traveler than on the city/nation. I don't think there is anywhere that language necessarily pigeonholes you to tourist areas - it's simply how comfortable or uncomfortable it makes you.
That being said, I think you would have very good luck in Hong Kong, for obvious reasons. Beyond english accessibility, I find Hong Kong to be the most fascinating and interesting city in the world. I love to be there and miss it when I am not.
If you can find some kind of personal connection there - a meetup or hackerspace or ... anything ... it is definitely helpful and will get you off the beaten path much more quickly.
I think this depends more on the traveler than on the city/nation. I don't think there is anywhere that language necessarily pigeonholes you to tourist areas - it's simply how comfortable or uncomfortable it makes you.
That being said, I think you would have very good luck in Hong Kong, for obvious reasons. Beyond english accessibility, I find Hong Kong to be the most fascinating and interesting city in the world. I love to be there and miss it when I am not.
If you can find some kind of personal connection there - a meetup or hackerspace or ... anything ... it is definitely helpful and will get you off the beaten path much more quickly.
> personal connection there - a meetup or hackerspace
HKGers should check out DimSumLabs ( https://www.meetup.com/dimsumlabs/ ) as a really nice bunch (at least when I was there).
HKGers should check out DimSumLabs ( https://www.meetup.com/dimsumlabs/ ) as a really nice bunch (at least when I was there).
My cousin has no Mandarin and has been travelling in China for the past month. I live here and have basic Mandarin. Get used to pointing at things and saying "Zhege" = this one. It's doable if you're willing to point at things and pantomime. It's not a lot worse than leaving tourist areas in Italy. Point, mime and grimace.
You can do a 'point and click' destination spec with taxi drivers or just ask randoms with a map, or Baidu maps and a mobile phone ... you don't really need words to get around. A lot of people speak basic English these days, too.
For many of the reasons expressed here, specially the 'business culture' and 'hustling factor', China is the country that reminds me most of United States.
Chengdu is a wonderful city, despite the pollution problems, and it's surroundings - Emei, Qingcheng, Jiuzhaigo, Huanglong - are unique, magnificent, and rather less known for westerners. Visit them while you can.
They are more often than not incredibly loud, rude and lack almost all basic human courtesy we take for granted in the west and even in asian countries like Thailand. They will push past you in queues, yell mandarin loudly in your face to others behind you, stand in the middle of the street blocking traffic, play videos on their phone speaker on full volume without using headphones - I could go on and on and on.
There's absolutely zero consideration for anyone but themselves and are, by a wide margin, the rudest tourists i've ever encountered anywhere.
I can't help but wonder if it's just the type Chinese tourists that visit Thailand and mainland China would be different, but its just not a risk i'm willing to take.