Model F Keyboards project – Bringing back the buckling spring keyboard(popularmechanics.com)
popularmechanics.com
Model F Keyboards project – Bringing back the buckling spring keyboard
http://www.popularmechanics.com/ibm-model-f-keyboard-buckling-spring
100 comments
Here is a review of the beam springs and some of it's problems:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNRH1ULmbNA
The big problem there, slow speed, is not inherent to the technology but stems from the replacement (USB) interface. Scanning the capacitive matrix of these keyboards with a commodity microcontroller is an amazing achievement, but it only just barely works.
I owned and used a Selectric typewriter for many years and I did not like the key feel. Basically, too light!!
What mechanism did the Selectric use?
"When the typist presses a key, a pawl on the key lever depresses a matching metal bar (interposer) for that key. The interposer, which is oriented front to back in the machine, has one or more short projections (lugs) protruding from its bottom edge. Each interposer has a unique combination of lugs, corresponding to the binary code for the desired character. Each interposer also has a tab that slots in between loose steel balls in a race, the size of balls and race selected precisely to leave a total gap barely larger than the width of the interposer tab, such that only one interposer tab can fit in the free space and thus only one letter can be selected at a time." [1][2]
Not exactly comparable to the one on a modern PC, I guess.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter#Selec...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTjxwVfx8GA
Not exactly comparable to the one on a modern PC, I guess.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter#Selec...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTjxwVfx8GA
The Selectric feel was particularly good in a few ways:
- it had a very light pre-pre-travel of a millimetre or so, providing distinct touching-but-not-pressing feedback;
- the force drop at the tactile snap point was so high it felt like the keyboard was actively trying to help you type;
- the post-travel was long and gradual enough that even an aggressive operator like me wouldn't normally bottom out.
IBM beam springs got part of the way by using two springs (one of them two-piece). Another spring or two, or some nonlinear springs, could probably do better.
- it had a very light pre-pre-travel of a millimetre or so, providing distinct touching-but-not-pressing feedback;
- the force drop at the tactile snap point was so high it felt like the keyboard was actively trying to help you type;
- the post-travel was long and gradual enough that even an aggressive operator like me wouldn't normally bottom out.
IBM beam springs got part of the way by using two springs (one of them two-piece). Another spring or two, or some nonlinear springs, could probably do better.
The original title is pretty clickbaity (which, I suppose, is fitting). The switches are great, but so long as your arms are forced together as they are by most keyboards, you are still doing untold damage to your upper body. I'll stick with my Kinesis Advantage.
It really is amazing how much of a difference that contour style makes - I picked one up for long stretches of coding when I otherwise tend to develop "hunched-over-the-computer" syndrome. The pressure relief on the chest and shoulders is immense and it's hard not to have good posture when using it. It was so effective that I don't even need it anymore (is that ironic?), except now and then when sitting at a desk all day starts to feel uncomfortable.
I appreciate the effort that people are putting into the switches themselves, but agreed, updating the layout is where the real gains are found. I've used Kinesis keyboards for 20 years--I now own four of them of various vintage--and I'm surprised they never found broader adoption. There's so many benefits:
- Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need to move your hand around.
- Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers.
- Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs users rejoice!
- You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space ("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely.
Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training. It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2 months.
EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.
- Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need to move your hand around.
- Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers.
- Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs users rejoice!
- You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space ("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely.
Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training. It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2 months.
EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.
>1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys.
The Advantage 2 resolves this issue. :) I'm looking forward to getting mine later this year.
For gaming, I use the Razer Orbweaver, but while playing Dark Engine games recently I found it problematic because there's not enough room for all the mappings I wanted to use (gadgets, special weapons, quicksaving/loading). The situation would probably be even worse with strategy games.
The Advantage 2 resolves this issue. :) I'm looking forward to getting mine later this year.
For gaming, I use the Razer Orbweaver, but while playing Dark Engine games recently I found it problematic because there's not enough room for all the mappings I wanted to use (gadgets, special weapons, quicksaving/loading). The situation would probably be even worse with strategy games.
The kinesis is expensive. It's worth it for lots of people, but not everyone. And it's hard to say whether it'll be worth it for you without buying one. (They have a return policy, but a lot of people are going to be unwilling to take advantage of it. And with shipping costs, it might still be expensive, especially if you're international.)
As an aside, I believe recent models have mechanical esc and function keys.
As an aside, I believe recent models have mechanical esc and function keys.
Sure it's expensive, but we're talking about your primary input device which you use for hours every day. If your job is in front of a computer, do yourself a huge favor and get a decent keyboard, display, and chair. You also amortize that cost over a very long time--these keyboards last forever. My 20 year-old Kinesis (with a USB dongle) works just as good today as it did when I bought it.
But to your point, it's a leap that most people have to take on faith, as they probably can't find one to demo. I had the good fortune of having a coworker with one so I could try it first; a couple minutes with the Kinesis was all it took to sell me. The same's happened in my current office; now 4-5 people use them. But to the average person who can't try before they buy, it's a leap, and I'm sure that's hindered adoption significantly.
You're right on the current model's escape/function keys, looks like they're mechanical now--excellent! All of mine are older models.
But to your point, it's a leap that most people have to take on faith, as they probably can't find one to demo. I had the good fortune of having a coworker with one so I could try it first; a couple minutes with the Kinesis was all it took to sell me. The same's happened in my current office; now 4-5 people use them. But to the average person who can't try before they buy, it's a leap, and I'm sure that's hindered adoption significantly.
You're right on the current model's escape/function keys, looks like they're mechanical now--excellent! All of mine are older models.
Am I the only one who never liked those clicky, long-throw mechanical keyboards? I much prefer the very short throws of laptop-style keyboards, particularly the Logitech K750.
That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very hard or very far for a keystroke to register.
That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very hard or very far for a keystroke to register.
No, you are not. I too liked the K750 feel a lot, but ultimately returned it after reading some reviews the rechargeable batteries in it stop taking a charge (some relatively quickly for such an expensive keyboard). I also typed slower on it than others for some reason.
I have determined through a lot of time and money trying at least 25 keyboards over the past year I too like like the flat style like the K750. I bought and tried: Cherry MX Blue/Brown, Some Cheap Cherry clones on Amazon, Various rubber domes like K120/Kensington Keyboard for life/Microsoft 600, Matias Quiet-Click, K800, Razor's, Gaming BS, Vintage Rubber Dome, Etc. Even came close to buying Unicomp Buckling Spring and also even searched the Bay for old versions this article is about (holy grail vintage Model-F) but refuse to spend more for keyboard than a i5 CPU (and the reason I would never buy Topre either).
Mechanical keyboards do feel good and remind me of my youth, but to me are dinosaurs. Big, bulky and noisy. While it is fun to see them making a comeback and popular with the younger gen, I personally don't understand the appeal of them in 2017. Annoy co-workers and people on other end of phone calls. I even woke up my 6yo son with my Cherry Brown one night typing away.
Trying all of these I eventually caught myself sort of missing the low-profile laptop style scissor-switch ones I have tried. I really liked the K800 and K750. K750 I eliminated as mentioned above, the K800 I took back because Logitech purposely disabled key combo's on it and it was a middle finger to anyone who wanted to game on it, even a little.
I think the latest version of the Mac Keyboard with even less travel than the previous one is beyond what I like though. That is TOO little travel and feels like I am just typing on my desk surface. I am thinking of getting the new Surface keyboard as I tried the latest TypeCover and liked the feel.
I have determined through a lot of time and money trying at least 25 keyboards over the past year I too like like the flat style like the K750. I bought and tried: Cherry MX Blue/Brown, Some Cheap Cherry clones on Amazon, Various rubber domes like K120/Kensington Keyboard for life/Microsoft 600, Matias Quiet-Click, K800, Razor's, Gaming BS, Vintage Rubber Dome, Etc. Even came close to buying Unicomp Buckling Spring and also even searched the Bay for old versions this article is about (holy grail vintage Model-F) but refuse to spend more for keyboard than a i5 CPU (and the reason I would never buy Topre either).
Mechanical keyboards do feel good and remind me of my youth, but to me are dinosaurs. Big, bulky and noisy. While it is fun to see them making a comeback and popular with the younger gen, I personally don't understand the appeal of them in 2017. Annoy co-workers and people on other end of phone calls. I even woke up my 6yo son with my Cherry Brown one night typing away.
Trying all of these I eventually caught myself sort of missing the low-profile laptop style scissor-switch ones I have tried. I really liked the K800 and K750. K750 I eliminated as mentioned above, the K800 I took back because Logitech purposely disabled key combo's on it and it was a middle finger to anyone who wanted to game on it, even a little.
I think the latest version of the Mac Keyboard with even less travel than the previous one is beyond what I like though. That is TOO little travel and feels like I am just typing on my desk surface. I am thinking of getting the new Surface keyboard as I tried the latest TypeCover and liked the feel.
I am with you. It's funny, right now I have two keyboards in front of me, a Razer Blackwidow mech for Windows/gaming and a K750 for work on the mac. For work I much prefer the K750.
Same. I absolutely love the built in keyboard in my MSI PE60 6QD (kinda a gamer's laptop) and I never liked mechanical long throw noisy ones.
Same - I've always loathed clicky keyboards.
Nope. I've used Model M keyboards for a loooong time and I think they're highly overrated. Loud as hell and really fatigue your fingers. Cherry MX switches really are better.
it provides a tactile sensation that I personally enjoy.
I find it similar to loading a gun, or shifting a manual transmission, or attaching a lens on an SLR style camera, or opening a well-built safe, or opening the door to a heavy luxury sedan.
There is some sort of mechanical response and feedback that modern keyboards somehow lack. It's hard to describe. Good modern mechanical keyboards come close, though.
I have no delusions that model M style keyboards are superior; I just like the way they feel.
I find it similar to loading a gun, or shifting a manual transmission, or attaching a lens on an SLR style camera, or opening a well-built safe, or opening the door to a heavy luxury sedan.
There is some sort of mechanical response and feedback that modern keyboards somehow lack. It's hard to describe. Good modern mechanical keyboards come close, though.
I have no delusions that model M style keyboards are superior; I just like the way they feel.
You might really enjoy the Graph Gear line of pencils and pens as well: http://www.pentel.com/store/graphgear-1000.
I could have written this exact reply. I'm still hoping Logitech follows up with a solar powered mouse.
Since this is all personal opinion:
I hate laptop keyboards; I'd prefer a mushy keyboard over those. They always have an abnormally high activation weight for their throw, and the impact of my fingers bottoming out so rapidly (due to the force to overcome the butterfly mechanism) makes my fingers ache. Especially since it's happening dozens of times a minute for each finger. At least a mushy keyboard will cushion that impact somewhat.
With a long throw mechanical keyboard, however, the activation weight comes in much more gradually, and you don't need to bottom out the keys to get that activation.
Of course, more recent laptop keyboards which don't really have much of a throw (thinking the newest apple ones here) are a bit easier on the fingers, but the pressure required to activate them, and the lack of tactile feedback (but you still get the annoying audible click) makes life a lot less enjoyable to type on.
I hate laptop keyboards; I'd prefer a mushy keyboard over those. They always have an abnormally high activation weight for their throw, and the impact of my fingers bottoming out so rapidly (due to the force to overcome the butterfly mechanism) makes my fingers ache. Especially since it's happening dozens of times a minute for each finger. At least a mushy keyboard will cushion that impact somewhat.
With a long throw mechanical keyboard, however, the activation weight comes in much more gradually, and you don't need to bottom out the keys to get that activation.
Of course, more recent laptop keyboards which don't really have much of a throw (thinking the newest apple ones here) are a bit easier on the fingers, but the pressure required to activate them, and the lack of tactile feedback (but you still get the annoying audible click) makes life a lot less enjoyable to type on.
I don't like them either. I also prefer the laptop scissor-switch keys.
Yes, the K750 is a great substitute for Apple keyboards when you need to use Windows as well (on non-Apple hardware; the bootcamp drivers Did Not Like that). It has nearly the same feel for me as the standalone Apple keyboard, and was where I settled after years of buying keyboards in the hopes that this one got it right. The solar-powered wireless aspect is just gravy.
I wish they sold a battery powered variant. I've had several die. It's a great keyboard to type on though.
I also bought an Apple Magic Keyboard for use with my iPad and it's great as well. Very similar feel and small footprint.
I also bought an Apple Magic Keyboard for use with my iPad and it's great as well. Very similar feel and small footprint.
You could just replace the battery inside it...
True, but the battery inside isn't one that you are going to be able to get from the front desk at your hotel. I still would prefer one powered by AA or AAA batteries.
Turns out that you can pop a normal (non-rechargeable) CR2032 in the K750 to replace the rechargeable ML2032 that's already in there. Pretty decent chance of a CR2032 being at the hotel front desk or at the corner store. However, if you do that, it's important that you disable the solar-recharge feature, perhaps by taping over the solar cells.
After having my K750 for about three years, the ML2032 stopped accepting a charge, which made the keyboard nonfunctional. I did the ML2032->CR2032 replacement, put black tape over the solar cells, and the K750 came back to life. That was about a year ago with 8+ hours per day of use, and the CR2032 is still going strong.
After having my K750 for about three years, the ML2032 stopped accepting a charge, which made the keyboard nonfunctional. I did the ML2032->CR2032 replacement, put black tape over the solar cells, and the K750 came back to life. That was about a year ago with 8+ hours per day of use, and the CR2032 is still going strong.
It feels like the crappy battery is a pretty serious flaw to an otherwise fantastic product. Since the energy requirements for something like the K750 are pretty modest, I wonder if they considered super capacitors instead of a traditional battery?
I agree with you for the most part but I did find that Iw as often not fully activating keys on my keyboard for games like dota... also I had a wireless split that I loved and it was 50/50 on if it was the keyboard not activating or the keyboard being disconnected. So I switched to a blackwidow wired... now I know when the keys complete their circuit and my gaming got better.
I did start liking them a bit more in a movie / show off way when I really start hammering down on coding so I got one at my desk. I went back to a kinesis mainly due to a wierd issue with the razor not always letting th ePC boot.
So no you're not alone. However I've tried to make it so I can type on pretty much any keyboard since I've had to write full systems on a pull out server rack micro laptop keyboard in notepad before while standing... so I'd rather just not be annoyed by any coniguration as opposed to "can only work 'in my perfect comfort zone'". I also change editors all the time.
I did start liking them a bit more in a movie / show off way when I really start hammering down on coding so I got one at my desk. I went back to a kinesis mainly due to a wierd issue with the razor not always letting th ePC boot.
So no you're not alone. However I've tried to make it so I can type on pretty much any keyboard since I've had to write full systems on a pull out server rack micro laptop keyboard in notepad before while standing... so I'd rather just not be annoyed by any coniguration as opposed to "can only work 'in my perfect comfort zone'". I also change editors all the time.
Half agree. Ultimately not a huge fan of Model M style mechanicals, despite owning a couple - an original M from circa 1989 and a newer USB Lexmark. They're good, better than cheapies, but the throw is longer than I'd like.
Lately (last 2 years or so) I've been using a nice Topre board. It's the best of all worlds for me. Travel is moderate (certainly not laptop short, which I detest), but shortish and predictable. Force is low, and mechanically it's very good (no key wobble or anything like that). Basically imagine a perfect rubber dome keyboard, and it'll last forever.
This is the keyboard I use: https://www.amazon.com/Realforce-Keyboard-English-Layout-Xf0...
Lately (last 2 years or so) I've been using a nice Topre board. It's the best of all worlds for me. Travel is moderate (certainly not laptop short, which I detest), but shortish and predictable. Force is low, and mechanically it's very good (no key wobble or anything like that). Basically imagine a perfect rubber dome keyboard, and it'll last forever.
This is the keyboard I use: https://www.amazon.com/Realforce-Keyboard-English-Layout-Xf0...
Have you really tried them? For me, mechanical keyboards are among those things in the category "You don't know what you're missing but once you know, you can't go back." Like heroin, I guess. Buckling spring probably not, but maybe some Cherry switch would be just the right thing for you. Anyway, before I got my Unicomp I had no idea how bad other keyboards were, especially laptop keyboards.
Coincidentally, I've retired my Unicomp yesterday to save desk space in exchange for a Pok3r with Cherry blue switches. It's one of the few mechanical "hipster" keyboards that allow you to put Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs. (HHKB has this built-in, but it's just too expensive. And it's also not programmable.) Unfortunately, the Pok3r has one disadvantage: When you set CapsLock to Ctrl and L_Ctrl to Fn, then Fn+Ctrl key combos don't work properly. So I'll have to change Paredit keybindings in Emacs. :/
It's a pity that Unicomp doesn't produce a tenkeyless keyboard.
Coincidentally, I've retired my Unicomp yesterday to save desk space in exchange for a Pok3r with Cherry blue switches. It's one of the few mechanical "hipster" keyboards that allow you to put Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs. (HHKB has this built-in, but it's just too expensive. And it's also not programmable.) Unfortunately, the Pok3r has one disadvantage: When you set CapsLock to Ctrl and L_Ctrl to Fn, then Fn+Ctrl key combos don't work properly. So I'll have to change Paredit keybindings in Emacs. :/
It's a pity that Unicomp doesn't produce a tenkeyless keyboard.
>Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs.
This is the reason I'm typing on a Sun type 6 "UNIX" keyboard despite being mushier than bread pudding. I'd love a mechanical keyboard with a proper cluster of Sun buttons and maybe some dampeners so it's not obnoxiously loud but still gives proper tactile feedback.
This is the reason I'm typing on a Sun type 6 "UNIX" keyboard despite being mushier than bread pudding. I'd love a mechanical keyboard with a proper cluster of Sun buttons and maybe some dampeners so it's not obnoxiously loud but still gives proper tactile feedback.
Unicomp, the company formed by a staff buyout of IBM's keyboard division, offer a real mechanical in Sun "UNIX" layout: http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
It's a dream to type on and has the 'right' layout. It's not cheap or quiet, but it really is the best keyboard I've ever used. I'd kill for an affordable HHKB-sized Model M from Unicomp.
It's a dream to type on and has the 'right' layout. It's not cheap or quiet, but it really is the best keyboard I've ever used. I'd kill for an affordable HHKB-sized Model M from Unicomp.
Wow that's pretty sexy, but it's missing the L1/Stop button row on the left-hand side. That's what I meant by proper cluster of Sun buttons. It's still interesting, though. And tempting.
I own a keyboard with cherry browns, but type on a cheap lapstop-style cherry (KC 4000). (but you made me try the browns once more :) )
Each of them have their own advantages. I loved the Model F and M because they were the closest analog to a Selectric which really is a dream to use. Best keyboard on the planet.
The long throw lets you do one thing a short throw won't: you can partially depress a key without triggering it. This is handy if you're thinking. I have to turn off all the stupid handicapped assist/accessibility crap because it'll notice I rest a finger on shift or control while thinking about what to type next.
The long throw lets you do one thing a short throw won't: you can partially depress a key without triggering it. This is handy if you're thinking. I have to turn off all the stupid handicapped assist/accessibility crap because it'll notice I rest a finger on shift or control while thinking about what to type next.
I personally swear by Cherry MX Blue, which take very little force to activate. Onc you get the hang of pressing them just enough to have the press register (i.e. Just enough for the tactile feedback) and definitely not bottom them out, it feels almost like your fingers aren't moving at all. It's very comfortable IMHO.
I don't like any high force keys and I don't like keys that basically always bottom out. I feel bad for my fingers just thinking about it. (And I haaate the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboards)
I don't like any high force keys and I don't like keys that basically always bottom out. I feel bad for my fingers just thinking about it. (And I haaate the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboards)
How did you train yourself not to bottom out the keys? I've been using mechanical keyboards for a few years now, but gave up quickly on trying to not bottom out due to sheer frustration with non-registering key presses.
Cherry MX Blue and Brown[1] have a tactile "click" when they activate, so you push far enough to feel the click (but no further). I'm not sure what problem you faced, but I've never had any issues with them not registering. If anything, until I got used to it, I found they often registered when I didn't want them to (due to being low force), but it's something I quickly adapted to and doesn't happen anymore.
Beyond that, I don't know. When I decided to properly learn to touch type, I bought a blank DAS keyboard with cherry mx Blue and practiced a lot for a few weeks using typing practice/test websites (yeah.. I only learned real touchtyoing quite late). Nowadays I use a Kinesis Advantage2 with Cherry MX Brown key switches and it's the most comfortable keyboard I've ever typed on.
[1] I actually typo'd in my previous message.. I meant brown, not Blue, although I like Blue too (but generally prefer the quieter brown). They're both very similar. They both have a tactile click, but blues have an audible click too.
Beyond that, I don't know. When I decided to properly learn to touch type, I bought a blank DAS keyboard with cherry mx Blue and practiced a lot for a few weeks using typing practice/test websites (yeah.. I only learned real touchtyoing quite late). Nowadays I use a Kinesis Advantage2 with Cherry MX Brown key switches and it's the most comfortable keyboard I've ever typed on.
[1] I actually typo'd in my previous message.. I meant brown, not Blue, although I like Blue too (but generally prefer the quieter brown). They're both very similar. They both have a tactile click, but blues have an audible click too.
Not all mechanical keyboard switches have feedback (audio or tactile) when they actuate, making some more difficult to use than others (for example, cherry mx reds, referred to as "linear" provide zero feedback).
What switches are you using?
What switches are you using?
Unicomp[0] have been making Model-F inspired buckling spring keyboards exactly like this for a while.
[0]: https://www.pckeyboard.com
[0]: https://www.pckeyboard.com
Those are Model-M keyboards, which have a lot more plastic and less steel.
Still weighs a ton. And they've been in basically continuous manufacture ever since the old days. And they have full 100+ key layouts with a lot of alternative layouts. And they cost a third of the kickstarted model F. And they have replaceable parts. And they don't ping. And I own and love three of them and I might be biased.
They're also not quite the same as a vintage Model M in terms of keyfeel or quality. And a Model M is not quite the same as a Model F. I'm typing on a Model M SSK right now, I have a Unicomp in the closet, and one of the keyboards mentioned in the article on order.
Their PS/2 keyboards are exactly the same - they're genuine Model M keyboards. They even sold some keyboards with the IBM logo (a compact keyboard with the IBM logo, which sucked because of the goofy layout), so they must have bought some inventory in addition to the tooling from IBM.
There's a big caveat, though: not all Model M keyboards were the same, so the comparison might or might not ring true depending on what Model M you used. For example, the one that came with my PS/2 Model 50z back in the day was heavier and sturdier than some of the ones that IBM made later, and had a removable cable. The Unicomp stuff compares to what IBM was making immediately before they gave up on the whole business, I think. Then Unicomp eventually made some USB keyboards, which turned out not to be the greatest...
And yeah, the Model F was a completely different thing entirely.
(edit: in truth, I haven't bought anything there in a little over nine years, wow... their Classic 101 still looks pretty legit)
There's a big caveat, though: not all Model M keyboards were the same, so the comparison might or might not ring true depending on what Model M you used. For example, the one that came with my PS/2 Model 50z back in the day was heavier and sturdier than some of the ones that IBM made later, and had a removable cable. The Unicomp stuff compares to what IBM was making immediately before they gave up on the whole business, I think. Then Unicomp eventually made some USB keyboards, which turned out not to be the greatest...
And yeah, the Model F was a completely different thing entirely.
(edit: in truth, I haven't bought anything there in a little over nine years, wow... their Classic 101 still looks pretty legit)
Yeah, my SSK is an '87. There's definite differences in terms of weight and key wobble, and the keycaps on the Unicomp are less sturdy.
Plus I do actually have a USB model, and it can be flaky and require a replug at startup. And the pointing stick has different sensitivity based on which direction you're going, which makes it worthless.
Also, I just like the tenkeyless layout.
The benefit to a new Model F is I'll never have to worry about needing to do a bolt mod, and you can actually move the barrels around to a different layout if you want to. Plus, with the XWhatsit controller, you can program it and have layers and whatnot, and bug-free USB. And the case is metal.
The Unicomp stuff is comparable, but I think it's a reach to say it's totally the same.
Plus I do actually have a USB model, and it can be flaky and require a replug at startup. And the pointing stick has different sensitivity based on which direction you're going, which makes it worthless.
Also, I just like the tenkeyless layout.
The benefit to a new Model F is I'll never have to worry about needing to do a bolt mod, and you can actually move the barrels around to a different layout if you want to. Plus, with the XWhatsit controller, you can program it and have layers and whatnot, and bug-free USB. And the case is metal.
The Unicomp stuff is comparable, but I think it's a reach to say it's totally the same.
I might have written something misleading unintentionally, since I haven't been a Unicomp customer in a long time. I really felt that the half dozen or so Unicomp keyboards I bought in the late nineties were the same. I don't own any of those keyboards anymore, but I am pretty sure they even had the IBM logo. It might be that they weren't really representative of Unicomp and were leftover IBM inventory. The black USB keyboard I bought from Unicomp nine years ago was certainly a disappointment, although I think the switch feel was essentially correct.
I respect that these new guys are doing a Model F clone instead of a Model M clone, it definitely reflects good taste, but I don't really agree that the Cherry MX Blue switch is a "shadow of their predecessor," as the article states. The only thing lacking I've seen in some newer mechanical keyboards based on Cherry switches is, oddly, that they sometimes find new and exciting ways to mess up the engineering of the space bar. That seems like it should be a relatively straightforward thing.
I respect that these new guys are doing a Model F clone instead of a Model M clone, it definitely reflects good taste, but I don't really agree that the Cherry MX Blue switch is a "shadow of their predecessor," as the article states. The only thing lacking I've seen in some newer mechanical keyboards based on Cherry switches is, oddly, that they sometimes find new and exciting ways to mess up the engineering of the space bar. That seems like it should be a relatively straightforward thing.
IIRC Unicomp bought the actual tooling and design files for the Model M, work with some of the same contract manufacturers as IBM/Lexmark, and just didn't spring for the trademarks to be able to market it as "the" Model M.
These are the keyboards that I use. Love them!
I've bought into the hype and used a blue switch mechanical keyboard for six months, but now I'm switching back to rubber dome/chiclet. Unfortunately I can't type on tall mechanical keyboards and it was killing my wrists. The keys also felt too hard to press for my taste. One of my favourite keyboards right now is Apple full-sized keyboard. I might even buy it for my Windows PC.
Blue Cherry MX switches have a pretty low actuation force: they're lighter than most rubber domes and scissor switches.
If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3 cm tall...), lower your desk!
If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3 cm tall...), lower your desk!
Find a keyboard that has a built-in palm rest - they help you get your hands into the right position. If you can find a "wrist rest" that is made from the heavy open-cell foam (usually with a decorative cloth cover), they're good. The squishy gel-filled ones don't provide enough support.
For rubber-dome switches, look at the Lenovo Preferred Pro USB. For mechanical switches, there's an upcoming model from dasKeyboard (the 5Q) that looks like it'll have one (the prototype in their video doesn't have it, but the product renderings does)
For rubber-dome switches, look at the Lenovo Preferred Pro USB. For mechanical switches, there's an upcoming model from dasKeyboard (the 5Q) that looks like it'll have one (the prototype in their video doesn't have it, but the product renderings does)
Agreed on the Apple full-sized keyboard. I use one on Windows, and the only thing I miss is the lack of a Print Screen key and volume control.
I get over the first by using the built in Snipping Tool. I get over the volume controls by using AutoHotKey.
If you go the AutoHotKey route, this script will get you Volume and mute functionality by using the Command and F10, F11, and F12 keys (the standard audio control function keys).
I get over the first by using the built in Snipping Tool. I get over the volume controls by using AutoHotKey.
If you go the AutoHotKey route, this script will get you Volume and mute functionality by using the Command and F10, F11, and F12 keys (the standard audio control function keys).
#F12::Send {Volume_Up} ; Raise the master volume
#F11::Send {Volume_Down} ; Lower the master volume
#F10::Send {Volume_Mute} ; Mute/unmute.If wanna go into the rabbit hole of mech keyboards, visit this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/
---
I'm already building a pseudo-MS Ergo keyboard, waiting for the plates.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/
---
I'm already building a pseudo-MS Ergo keyboard, waiting for the plates.
After I accidentally killed my Poker II (no more iced tea near my desk, I learned my lesson), I decided to buy a kit. Very excited to put it all together.
How about a little more innovation in keyboards? It is 30 years later. Split keyboards?
https://shop.keyboard.io
Tenting capable?
Add a Soli chip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0
https://shop.keyboard.io
Tenting capable?
Add a Soli chip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0
I'm disappointed that the King's Assembly and Keymouse both turned out to be vaporware.
Like beds, people aren't usually willing to spend lots of money on a good keyboard. It's unfortunate, especially considering how much time you spend typing on one. But the moment you start talking mechanical switches, your keyboard is going to be above the hundred dollar mark (knock-offs notwithstanding). Split the keyboard, another two hundred dollars. Throw in something like Soli, and you're looking at a thousand dollar keyboard.
How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good keyboard?
How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good keyboard?
People willing lots of them... having the money? not so much.
For example I am from Brazil, currently without any work. But my peak income was 2000 usd month with 1000 usd going straight to pay student debts... I had other things to do with money (like buy decent glasses, I can type on crappy keyboard, but I can't type if I can't see anything).
Now if I had enough money for a keyboard I would use it all to repay more debts.
And I am actually in the elite... the average Brazillian makes around 300 usd per month in total (and yes, the average brazilian can't afford student loans)
For example I am from Brazil, currently without any work. But my peak income was 2000 usd month with 1000 usd going straight to pay student debts... I had other things to do with money (like buy decent glasses, I can type on crappy keyboard, but I can't type if I can't see anything).
Now if I had enough money for a keyboard I would use it all to repay more debts.
And I am actually in the elite... the average Brazillian makes around 300 usd per month in total (and yes, the average brazilian can't afford student loans)
Well, when you consider how many hours (days, years) are spent typing on a keyboard, and how important your hands are to your career - hence the bed analogy - $100 for a good keyboard is a steal. Even if it only lasts a year (many will last 5+), that's a pennies a day investment in your body and your career.
Put another way, would you expect a professional mechanic to use a $30 set of harbour freight wrenches?
Put another way, would you expect a professional mechanic to use a $30 set of harbour freight wrenches?
You missed my point.
I am quite willing to spend 100 on a keyboard, I just literally don't have it.
When you are struggling to pay rent, medicine, food, you don't have much choice... See many people that go years with rotten teeth because they can't afford a dentist, it is obvious they need to go to dentist, and they do want to, they just can't do it.
For example the glasses I mentioned in my post are now very old, and slightly outdated compared to current prescription, yet I don't have money to change them at all either. So I am keeping them, and hoping they will last a little longer.
I am quite willing to spend 100 on a keyboard, I just literally don't have it.
When you are struggling to pay rent, medicine, food, you don't have much choice... See many people that go years with rotten teeth because they can't afford a dentist, it is obvious they need to go to dentist, and they do want to, they just can't do it.
For example the glasses I mentioned in my post are now very old, and slightly outdated compared to current prescription, yet I don't have money to change them at all either. So I am keeping them, and hoping they will last a little longer.
> I am quite willing to spend 100 on a keyboard, I just literally don't have it.
You're right, that is a very different situation than the one I'm referencing - where people do have the money (or could make their health a priority) but still use crappy keyboards and wonder why their hands ache.
You're right, that is a very different situation than the one I'm referencing - where people do have the money (or could make their health a priority) but still use crappy keyboards and wonder why their hands ache.
You're doing that thing were you're dragging the conversation to the developing world, which no one was talking about.
There are absolutely lots of people who can afford it.
Most of the 7 people people on the planet would never buy it. There are, however, tens of millions of people who would buy it.
Once any innovation is made, it'll become super cheap within a decade or so then even more people will benefit.
Consider that there are people who pay $10,000 for a mattress. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-175000-mattress-2013-04...
All you need is a sufficient market for a product. It doesn't need to be purchased by everyone in the world.
There are absolutely lots of people who can afford it.
Most of the 7 people people on the planet would never buy it. There are, however, tens of millions of people who would buy it.
Once any innovation is made, it'll become super cheap within a decade or so then even more people will benefit.
Consider that there are people who pay $10,000 for a mattress. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-175000-mattress-2013-04...
All you need is a sufficient market for a product. It doesn't need to be purchased by everyone in the world.
I prefer using a standard layout, because then I don't have to adjust when I'm using a keyboard that isn't mine. I wouldn't mind having better keys though. I had an old mechanical keyboard at home for many years, but I finally retired it when my wife told me she couldn't stand the noise. I've always felt my typing was better with the mechanical keyboard.
Is there any good reason why splitting a hundred dollar keyboard would have to cost three times as much?
Anyway, I paid 30 euros for my last mechanical (with rgb lighting) shipped to my door. Patent expiration is a beautiful thing.
Anyway, I paid 30 euros for my last mechanical (with rgb lighting) shipped to my door. Patent expiration is a beautiful thing.
Extra controllers (and PCBs), cabling to connect the two halves, extra plastic for the housing... there are definite real costs involved. However, once you're above a hundred dollars you're in a niche market anyways, so why not charge more boutique prices? I imagine this is the real explanation for the price.
As for patent expiration - yeah, it can be a beautiful thing for prices, but I'm still quite leery of picking up a cheap keyboard; quality parts that last (and more importantly behave consistently through their lifespan) still cost money.
As for patent expiration - yeah, it can be a beautiful thing for prices, but I'm still quite leery of picking up a cheap keyboard; quality parts that last (and more importantly behave consistently through their lifespan) still cost money.
> Is there any good reason why splitting a hundred dollar keyboard would have to cost three times as much?
Far decreased demand, and that effect on economies of scale. I'm typing on a split keyboard right now, but most people don't want one.
Far decreased demand, and that effect on economies of scale. I'm typing on a split keyboard right now, but most people don't want one.
And what that secret model is?
For those who are not old enough to remember this: https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring
Article is a little misleading... you don't need "extensive modification" to use a Model F keyboard with a modern computer... the Model F AT keyboard can plug directly into a PS/2 port and be used as-is:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Comput...
This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive, but the article is a little misleading.
One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your fingers like a touchpad.
https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Comput...
This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive, but the article is a little misleading.
One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your fingers like a touchpad.
The keyboards they're copying are based on the IBM 4704 rather than the PC AT keyboard http://kishy.ca/?p=894
It's more desirable because its layouts are a bit closer to modern 60/80% keyboards, but it doesn't have an AT interface.
It's more desirable because its layouts are a bit closer to modern 60/80% keyboards, but it doesn't have an AT interface.
True enough, I just think it is a bit misleading to act as if that is somehow the colloquial Model F Keyboard when really they are recreating a pretty obscure keyboard relative to the XT or AT Model f's.
If I hadn't just bought a Ergodox EZ I would be all over this. I don't think my wife would forgive me for a month if I bought another keyboard right now. I already owe her decorating her office because of this last one. She doesn't appreciate why my odd keyboards are a critical, work related investment.
The Model F only registers key down events, and can't report a key-up. I don't want that ever again. Unlike many other aspects of old computer peripherals and designs, there's no tangible advantage to this limitation.
My first PC was an IBM PC/AT, complete with original Model M keyboard (model F is the same, but more compact). I remember it well; I'd say it is somewhat overrated. Activation force threshold is too high; it is LOUD (and even if it doesn't bother you, the sound itself starts to be pretty annoying after 2-3 weeks), etc.
Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I haven't found anything that worked perfectly for me.
Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I haven't found anything that worked perfectly for me.
I liked the Sun Microsystems Type 5 keyboard.
My favourite as well. I have one on my desk here. (It was £17 on eBay a few years ago. The USB converter for it was a lot more expensive than the keyboard.)
There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I might like.
There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I might like.
Good news, you can also make your own Type 5 adapter using an Arduino. Check out this great project: https://github.com/benr/SunType5_ArduinoAdapter.
Personally, I still have two spare Model M's (I had three but one died in an accident involving hot coffee), but even among the model M's there are different constructions, the older ones with detachable cable are much better (and heavier) than a few more modern ones (still original IBM model M's) I have seen.
I really love my Model M. Unfortunately, the cable is rotten and the small manufacturer doesn't deliver it to Brazil. Buying a new one would be weird since Brazil standard keyboard is the only one that puts 14 keys in the row above the space bar. Now I have 3 unused Model M in my house. Very sad :-(
If you look under the shift keys, there are spacers in the spots where the extra keys would go. The pad is actually active under it. So what you can do is pop the plastic rivets that hold the metal back plate on to the plastic frame, and replace them with small screws/nuts (do a google search for "Model M bolt modification").
Once you get it apart, you can take out the spacers, and replace it with pivot plates, then you can put an appropriate key in the spot (from a dead keyboard, for example).
If the Brazilian Model M uses the same cable as the US Model M then I'd be happy to send a cable your way. Feel free to reach out if you're interested (email's in my profile) and we can confirm whether the cables match.
I can't think of a more productive way to annoy your coworkers! I kid...
But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that awesome DIN connector keyboard!
But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that awesome DIN connector keyboard!
I was hoping that the model F was the one with the function keys on the left. But alas, no.
Exactly!
What is the point of recreating something _resembling_ a Model F but that doesn't have the same layout? Ctrl to the left of A, Caps Lock out of the way at lower right (in just the right position to be remapped as RAlt or Compose).
What thought process goes "we'll recreate this classic device but we'll remove just a couple of the features that make it distinctive"? How is that ever going to be a recipe for success?
What is the point of recreating something _resembling_ a Model F but that doesn't have the same layout? Ctrl to the left of A, Caps Lock out of the way at lower right (in just the right position to be remapped as RAlt or Compose).
What thought process goes "we'll recreate this classic device but we'll remove just a couple of the features that make it distinctive"? How is that ever going to be a recipe for success?
Don't forget Unicomp's been around for a while. https://www.pckeyboard.com/
All they brought back was a zinc case?
All they brought back was a zinc case?
It makes me angry, modern keyboards still have rows with half-key offset, why?
"Ortholinear" are not problematic for casual typists, and makes typing with all 10 fingers a lot easier.
"Ortholinear" are not problematic for casual typists, and makes typing with all 10 fingers a lot easier.
[deleted]
We're either going for almost completely flat keyboards like the new Macbooks, or the clickiest most obtuse mechanical keyboards. Why can't we have a good compromise?
Here's a comment from a couple of months ago that pointed out a silent mechanical keyboard. Despite my exclamation I haven't picked one up yet.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268
You made a good choice, because the current version of those switches has a problem with repeated keystrokes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br...
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn...
However, they are very nice to type on, and Matias is supposedly producing a new version of the switch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br...
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn...
However, they are very nice to type on, and Matias is supposedly producing a new version of the switch.
There are literally dozens of good compromises available nowadays compared to a decade ago, where high-end keyboards were just a niche.
¹ https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring
Edit: It's not entirely correct to blame cost-reduction alone for the end of the beam springs. ISO 9241 killed the existing beam spring switches, and making the replacements equally good (or better — they did suffer from wobble) would have been expensive.