Launch HN: Dropleaf (YC S17) – subscription service for indie PC games
59 comments
Sadly I think game developers will now optimize towards wasting as much times as possible without convincing the user to quit. Longer loading times, more cut scenes, more fluff essentially.
Short games with a small but great single player story campaign will die out against the rocket leagues.
Short games with a small but great single player story campaign will die out against the rocket leagues.
Our revenue model doesn't focus exclusively on global time played. So we hope to minimize time wasters that aren't fun. But you're absolutely right, there is definitely risk there. We hope our curation will also help combat that, since it's something we want to actively avoid.
One of the most common mistakes in the industry is to think that games are different than other types of software. That people "consume" them and move on to the next game. That's wrong. Only a very few games get all the play-hours. Most people ever really play one game. The "game of their life". For some it's starcraft, for others it's minecraft.
Games are software, the same rules kind of apply: there are only 15 (say) unicorns per year.
A subscription service doesn't make sense in this context because it doesn't make sense for the unicorns to collaborate with you.
What I wish would exist however, is YC for games.
A subscription service doesn't make sense in this context because it doesn't make sense for the unicorns to collaborate with you.
What I wish would exist however, is YC for games.
That's definitely an interesting perspective, but I think steam stats say something a little different, there are hundreds, if not thousands of games that move 100K+ units (and see significant played time from their users) each year. That's a whole bunch of games that a significant number of people fall in love with.
But beyond that, I think you just made the case for those games to sign up for a subscription model! If someone's playing a game, say minecraft, month over month, then that developer is getting paid month after month. In other words, if a game takes over someone's life, it'll almost definitely do better per-user on a subscription platform than on a store front.
By the way, check out Flare: http://www.flaregames.com/flare-accelerator/
But beyond that, I think you just made the case for those games to sign up for a subscription model! If someone's playing a game, say minecraft, month over month, then that developer is getting paid month after month. In other words, if a game takes over someone's life, it'll almost definitely do better per-user on a subscription platform than on a store front.
By the way, check out Flare: http://www.flaregames.com/flare-accelerator/
Totally anecdotal, but... I'll rarely try new mobile apps, especially the ones that cost. I will pay for new games here and there though.
If I factor in Steam and Humble Bundle it's safe to say that I don't consume games the same way that I would "consume" a web browser or text editor.
That being said I'm also not in the high spending "hardcore gamer" segment and smaller indie games are more my flavor.
If I factor in Steam and Humble Bundle it's safe to say that I don't consume games the same way that I would "consume" a web browser or text editor.
That being said I'm also not in the high spending "hardcore gamer" segment and smaller indie games are more my flavor.
Hopefully you'll give us a try! I strongly recommend checking out Cluster Truck or following Warcube through it's development. This thing is going to be the next indie breakout megahit, and you can get the hipster cred :D
https://dropleaf.io/Catalog/Game/?Id=57&GameTitle=Warcube
https://dropleaf.io/Catalog/Game/?Id=57&GameTitle=Warcube
I applaud your goals with your community, and wish more game developers and game-adjacent companies would think similarly. I've worked on games that didn't care, or didn't put the effort in, and so ended up with fairly toxic communities. When I was at Runic Games, I was amazed to see how inclusive and positive a gaming community around the Torchlight series was, but it definitely took work from the very beginning to make it that way.
Thank you! I really appreciate hearing that :D
When you say that devs get paid based on time played, I'm assuming this is platform wide hours, and not per player?
Have you considered alternative rev share models? Whenever I see this sort of service, I'm concerned that it is going to make shorter games and genres with low replayability even less viable than they currently are. Games that people play for hundreds of hours, like Terraria, Rimworld, or Factorio are going to get the dominant share of the revenue.
You can argue this is fair, but I hate to see the industry moving in a direction that makes games like Inside less viable.
Have you considered alternative rev share models? Whenever I see this sort of service, I'm concerned that it is going to make shorter games and genres with low replayability even less viable than they currently are. Games that people play for hundreds of hours, like Terraria, Rimworld, or Factorio are going to get the dominant share of the revenue.
You can argue this is fair, but I hate to see the industry moving in a direction that makes games like Inside less viable.
Actually we agree with you wholeheartedly.
Revenue is distributed on a per-user basis, we think that's hugely important! Thanks for the question :)
Revenue is distributed on a per-user basis, we think that's hugely important! Thanks for the question :)
You should try to categorize the games by replayability. Story heavy games will be weighted differently than sandbox games.
That's a potentially interesting idea, how would you see a system like that working?
How does the split with the Indie devs work?
If I pay a 5 USD subscription and just play 2 games, one for an hour and the other for 10 hours; who will get what and when?
Also, being a subscription model, does this imply now all of these games are online-only? If I'm offline, a game does not know if my subscription is valid/active. How is that handled?
What happens later, when I cancel my subscription? I don't see an easy way for you to protect the games once a user has downloaded all of them and cancelled your service.
If I pay a 5 USD subscription and just play 2 games, one for an hour and the other for 10 hours; who will get what and when?
Also, being a subscription model, does this imply now all of these games are online-only? If I'm offline, a game does not know if my subscription is valid/active. How is that handled?
What happens later, when I cancel my subscription? I don't see an easy way for you to protect the games once a user has downloaded all of them and cancelled your service.
We're not going to post our revenue split numbers exactly, but what I will say is that we distribute revenue based on played time on a per-user basis, each calendar month. We share revenue with our devs, with the supermajority of it going to them. In other words the developer portion of revenue will be split 10:1 in your example.
You do need an internet connection to launch games, you're right about that!
We use both an API and some encryption to make sure that a game which is saved to your computer is only launchable through the client. If you cancel your subscription, you're going to have a bunch of files you can't use.
However, we don't ever want you to lose the characters you've fallen in love with, even if you leave us, so your save files are yours to keep, and should be compatible with any other windows or steam build of the game!
You do need an internet connection to launch games, you're right about that!
We use both an API and some encryption to make sure that a game which is saved to your computer is only launchable through the client. If you cancel your subscription, you're going to have a bunch of files you can't use.
However, we don't ever want you to lose the characters you've fallen in love with, even if you leave us, so your save files are yours to keep, and should be compatible with any other windows or steam build of the game!
As a hobbyist indie dev, I think it's a great idea. My main concern for the platform is the same as indies in general: discoverability. How do you plan to grow the platform and make people aware of it? People won't subscribe without games, and devs won't spend time modifying for a platform with no audience. Seems like a chicken and egg problem. What's your goal in subscribers for one, two, five years?
It's a great question - first of all, we require very, very little(usually zero) technical integration work for games that aren't heavily dependent on steam!
As far as growing our brand, we're going to use all of the typical avenues that a games company might! Twitch and Youtube influencers, physical presence at cons, and twitter/fbook/instagram.
It's taken some work to get things moving, but now that we've got great games like Evoland, Cluster Truck, Redout and tumblestone, we think we've got a virtuous cycle instead of a chicken and egg problem!
As far as growing our brand, we're going to use all of the typical avenues that a games company might! Twitch and Youtube influencers, physical presence at cons, and twitter/fbook/instagram.
It's taken some work to get things moving, but now that we've got great games like Evoland, Cluster Truck, Redout and tumblestone, we think we've got a virtuous cycle instead of a chicken and egg problem!
As a full-time employee, husband and parent of 4 children, I love this idea. Currently, buying games is a huge time risk for me. There's a very large chance I won't ever play it. However, paying only $5/month and being able to try a game out with no strings attached (psychologically) is a really nice idea.
One of our teammates said the same thing! He loves playing Pankapu with his kid. https://dropleaf.io/Catalog/Game/?Id=19&GameTitle=Pankapu
I hope you will give us a try and let us know what you think :D
I hope you will give us a try and let us know what you think :D
I hope you will be picky curators - I hate how so much of steam EA/ex-GL/etc is literal trash when it comes to indie games. Not talking about one person pixel art games, but talking about what's effectively cruft autogenerated rubbish to try and profit for $0.99 a copy.
I would love to subscribe if so.
I would love to subscribe if so.
You can see our catalog here right now: https://dropleaf.io/Catalog
We're actually adding a couple more games today including one I'm super excited about, Redout: https://34bigthings.com/portfolio/redout/
Our goal is to have a wide range of games, so that there's something for everyone to fall in love with, but we absolutely plan to be quite selective with what we allow in. If we have a game, it's because it's either great, incredibly compelling in some other way, or very interesting to the gaming nerds out there
We're actually adding a couple more games today including one I'm super excited about, Redout: https://34bigthings.com/portfolio/redout/
Our goal is to have a wide range of games, so that there's something for everyone to fall in love with, but we absolutely plan to be quite selective with what we allow in. If we have a game, it's because it's either great, incredibly compelling in some other way, or very interesting to the gaming nerds out there
In your opinion do you think those games should be omitted entirely from Steam? Or, do you think platforms like Steam need to organize their storefronts better from their front pages?
50-50 IMO
One example: http://store.steampowered.com/app/581200/Nash_Racing/
This is literally just the demo for https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/advanced-tuning-car... being sold for money. It's unmaintained and runs like crap.
Some of the ones that are obvious beginner games that aren't really polished have their place in EA/ex-GL, with people actually passionate about it and trying to build a product. Kudos to them for trying and good luck. This is a great thing, provides visibility for these creative minds, and all that.
And then you have http://store.steampowered.com/search/?publisher=Tero%20Lunkk...
This publisher deserves to be removed from Steam completely. It is not beneficial to the platform or to the players, and would probably cause increased refund request support load / chargeback or dispute load.
One example: http://store.steampowered.com/app/581200/Nash_Racing/
This is literally just the demo for https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/advanced-tuning-car... being sold for money. It's unmaintained and runs like crap.
Some of the ones that are obvious beginner games that aren't really polished have their place in EA/ex-GL, with people actually passionate about it and trying to build a product. Kudos to them for trying and good luck. This is a great thing, provides visibility for these creative minds, and all that.
And then you have http://store.steampowered.com/search/?publisher=Tero%20Lunkk...
This publisher deserves to be removed from Steam completely. It is not beneficial to the platform or to the players, and would probably cause increased refund request support load / chargeback or dispute load.
I more or less agree. I feel as if Steam is starting to look like the Android app store. It's at the point where legit games have to worry about SEO. That being said I think it's really hard to define super simple games that deserve a place to be seen and played vs. super simple copies and exploits.
Steam offers refund? Last time I bought a game that I can't play due to technical reason, they refused to refund.
They have for a while now. If you've played for less than two hours, and aren't requesting multiple refunds in a short period, it's automated now AFAIK.
They do, but it's hit or miss when it comes to actually getting one. Personally I wish it just wasn't necessary.
I have definitely had multiple refunds done on steam easily.
Really cool idea. Glad to see the subscription model being used in video gaming. How do you install and control game software? How do you uninstall it when someone unsubscribes? Do you use an application manager similar to AWS WAM to manage the application locally?
Our client acts as a downloader, installer, and launcher. So the game is installed on your local machine entirely. We don't remove the games when you unsubscribe, they just become locked. That way you can pick up where you left off easily.
What's the process like to get a game on the platform? Are there any requirements for exclusivity? Any expected monthly revenues for a reasonably popular game? This sounds like a good idea and I'm looking to publish a title at some point within a year.
[deleted]
Hey! Shoot me an email at [email protected]
Our process isn't super formalized yet, but we think we make it pretty easy for devs. We don't really have expected revenue numbers, since we just launched!
Our process isn't super formalized yet, but we think we make it pretty easy for devs. We don't really have expected revenue numbers, since we just launched!
A lot of games are more like "one-play" movies or tv shows these days.
Given that it's so much easier to create "video game content" than in the past, it makes sense to treat it more like Netflix, for the casual consumer.
Given that it's so much easier to create "video game content" than in the past, it makes sense to treat it more like Netflix, for the casual consumer.
Looks interesting! If your service gets popular, won't the price have to go up to scale with the time spent playing games and the number of games in your catalog?
$5/mo seems like way too little to go around.
$5/mo seems like way too little to go around.
5/mo is just introductory pricing. It's our thank you to our earliest users who sign up while we're still working some things out!
We expect the full price to be 9.99 a month, but for anyone who signs up now, they'll keep their plan for the life of their subscription!
We expect the full price to be 9.99 a month, but for anyone who signs up now, they'll keep their plan for the life of their subscription!
What's the difference with playonjump.com?
TBH there wont be a "netflix for games" until the big ones sign up for that
And they wont since such a service would be a big pay cut from selling games for 60 bucks
TBH there wont be a "netflix for games" until the big ones sign up for that
And they wont since such a service would be a big pay cut from selling games for 60 bucks
We think there's a few key differences:
First - we're focusing on personalized curation, in other words, the content you get recommended to you will be based on your preferences.
Second - There's a whole host of technological and model difference that will allow us to be financially better for developers, and to include larger and more technologically demanding games.
And as far as that pay cut goes, I think you'd be surprised as to how much subscription revenue can add up over the year. After all, we won't be 5/month for very long at all. We've definitely seen more replayable games doing better - per user- than they would have on a traditional storefront.
When it comes to integrating those 60 dollar games though, we're going to need to make sure we're not re-creating the problem for the indies that we were trying to solve though.
Oh and, unlike jump, we're currently up and running ;) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Second - There's a whole host of technological and model difference that will allow us to be financially better for developers, and to include larger and more technologically demanding games.
And as far as that pay cut goes, I think you'd be surprised as to how much subscription revenue can add up over the year. After all, we won't be 5/month for very long at all. We've definitely seen more replayable games doing better - per user- than they would have on a traditional storefront.
When it comes to integrating those 60 dollar games though, we're going to need to make sure we're not re-creating the problem for the indies that we were trying to solve though.
Oh and, unlike jump, we're currently up and running ;) (sorry, couldn't resist)
We're seeing the big companies move in that direction as well (Xbox Game Pass, EA/Origin Access, PSNow)
Definitely - subscription means recurring revenue, which is a whole lot easier than having to sell individual copies of anything!
Even if you end up doing a little worse per-unit gross, chances are your COGS goes down a fair bit.
Even if you end up doing a little worse per-unit gross, chances are your COGS goes down a fair bit.
Cool - do try https://halfchess.com
How much revenue could I make if I were a part of your program?
How much revenue could I make if I were a part of your program?
Hey! Thanks for reaching out. It looks like halfchess is a mobile game entirely, does it have a windows build?
Thanks for responding. Not currently.
It's ReactJS; so possibly can be wrapped with electron (etc) or do you mean windows smart-phone. In which case, it can have windows build.
It's ReactJS; so possibly can be wrapped with electron (etc) or do you mean windows smart-phone. In which case, it can have windows build.
humble bundle (http://humblebundle.com) has a game subscription plan as well. While they hook you in with AAA games, most of their bundle is indie. I feel most people subscribe because of the price, but I wonder how many people actually play their games in the age of Steam?
I know what you mean, I have north of 200 games in my steam library. Finding games that seem interesting enough to buy isn't a problem, but finding the games which are going to most deeply resonate with me is almost impossible. It's like opening the fridge, seeing all the stuff you have and then closing it again because you have no idea what you want to make for dinner.
We're hoping our discovery system will fix a lot of this. Instead of wall o' games, we want to show you games that are specifically on the list of things you're going to love!
We're hoping our discovery system will fix a lot of this. Instead of wall o' games, we want to show you games that are specifically on the list of things you're going to love!
That seems like a really cool idea. I know at least a few of those games support OSX - any plans for a mac client?
It's on our radar. Right now we're focusing on a solid Windows experience before we build a client for both Mac and Linux.
[deleted]
This looks very interesting!
What does your Linux support look like?
What does your Linux support look like?
[deleted]
Non-existent currently. But a Linux client and games is on our radar.
Whats your tech stack at Dropleaf?
It's .NET, Azure, SQL Server, Windows. We're definitely an anomaly in the start up space here but all of the engineering team worked at Microsoft at some point in our careers, some of us on those very products. So all else having been equal we went with a stack we had a hand in building and we were familiar with.
Zi (Rygeko) and I started Dropleaf because, as gamers, we feel that space around games could be so much better. With the rise of tools that make games easier to make, more people from diverse walks of life are creating games. That means the potential for more games that speak to a wider set of people, and we think that’s really good for the industry. We want to encourage that trend in a few ways:
Discoverability: It’s hard for smaller developers to find people who love their games, and it’s also harder for gamers to find games that will resonate. Our focus on indies and our discovery tools mean that we’ll be able to connect devs with the players who will connect with their art.
Diversity: We think the industry wins when gamers, devs, and media are more diverse and inclusive. One of our goals is to encourage that with our community and the way we think about what we do (You can read more about our community here: http://bit.ly/2uyCsFK ).
Dollars: Pricing trends in the industry don’t favor smaller developers or gamers. Gamers are less likely to take a risk on buying a game they don’t know much about, so it’s harder for indie developers to gain traction. And when indie devs can’t make money, they can’t make games. So our customers play a flat monthly fee, and devs get paid based on time played. This means games people like to play will be rewarded, and players won’t have to worry about the cost of entry.
We’re really excited to launch Dropleaf! We’d love to hear any questions you have, or learn about your favorite games!