On St. Augustine's Confessions(nybooks.com)
nybooks.com
On St. Augustine's Confessions
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/10/26/sarah-ruden-augustine-dialogue-god/
26 comments
Over the summer I built a set Catholic theological writings by scouring used book stores that I plan diligently going through over the next couple of years. I say years because I also have St. Aquinas' Summa Theologica (complete) in there as well. I am really interested in seeing the path I take going through these as adult.
If you don't mind reading on kindle...
The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words
for $3
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ante-Nicene-Post-Nicene-Fath...
for $3
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ante-Nicene-Post-Nicene-Fath...
Thank you for that. I do have one of the Father's of the Church volumes and one of the book stores has a few other volumes.
I'm most interested right now in The City of God due to the context/thesis being relevant today. As a teenager I switched to Buddhism (20 or so years ago) but have gained new interest in my Catholic upbringing as I was finding it hard to relate to Buddhism and its history. Culturally it was different from my own and I always had a feeling of being an outsider/imposter.
Most of HN and others who are in educated professions appear to dismiss religion though I've come to find it as a guiding principal and cultural history - Western Civilization is built on Christianity, Catholcism for a larger portion.
Currently in the US we are losing our sense cultural understanding, in my opinion, and wish for the government to set laws and regulations on everything. The freedoms set forth in the first amendment give us the freedom to guide our lives as we see fit, religion filling the moral and spiritual need in our lives. The libertarian in me agrees with the freedom but to ensure others are given the same freedom as long we do no harm to others - nor should we judge or force our beliefs onto others.
Now I understand that certain groups haven't experienced the same freedoms as others but is that religions fault? I would say no, and offer the perspective of culture. Simple cultural norms bring us together. I live in the PNW and have a beard, I know if I were to back to New Orleans where I'm from a beard would be viewed differently causing issues with employment. This is a simple and harmless is example that isn't a non-issue compared to others.
Overall I'm excited to begin the journey with the open mind of an adult.
Sorry for tangent and possible incoherent ramble - on my tablet.
I'm most interested right now in The City of God due to the context/thesis being relevant today. As a teenager I switched to Buddhism (20 or so years ago) but have gained new interest in my Catholic upbringing as I was finding it hard to relate to Buddhism and its history. Culturally it was different from my own and I always had a feeling of being an outsider/imposter.
Most of HN and others who are in educated professions appear to dismiss religion though I've come to find it as a guiding principal and cultural history - Western Civilization is built on Christianity, Catholcism for a larger portion.
Currently in the US we are losing our sense cultural understanding, in my opinion, and wish for the government to set laws and regulations on everything. The freedoms set forth in the first amendment give us the freedom to guide our lives as we see fit, religion filling the moral and spiritual need in our lives. The libertarian in me agrees with the freedom but to ensure others are given the same freedom as long we do no harm to others - nor should we judge or force our beliefs onto others.
Now I understand that certain groups haven't experienced the same freedoms as others but is that religions fault? I would say no, and offer the perspective of culture. Simple cultural norms bring us together. I live in the PNW and have a beard, I know if I were to back to New Orleans where I'm from a beard would be viewed differently causing issues with employment. This is a simple and harmless is example that isn't a non-issue compared to others.
Overall I'm excited to begin the journey with the open mind of an adult.
Sorry for tangent and possible incoherent ramble - on my tablet.
> Most of HN and others who are in educated professions appear to dismiss religion
I think a lot of us just keep our mouths shut due to the large amount of vitriol that results from any rational discussion of metaphysics or the supernatural :)
I think a lot of us just keep our mouths shut due to the large amount of vitriol that results from any rational discussion of metaphysics or the supernatural :)
To attempt to dispel some hesitance, I have a lot of conversations about this sort of thing. Only a minority involve any vitriol, and they're easy enough to walk away from. The more principled extroverts might comment on the tone of conversation as they leave.
And to attempt to make a positive case for engagement, we really need a lot more of it. We need to be careful because people of various religious (and agnostic and atheist) persuasions see this fear of engagement as a dislike or even hate of their kind of people (not just the theology or lack thereof). I don't want anyone to feel like they have to live secret or closeted lives. And it's pretty obvious that the stratification of Western culture is causing a lot of real problems.
And to attempt to make a positive case for engagement, we really need a lot more of it. We need to be careful because people of various religious (and agnostic and atheist) persuasions see this fear of engagement as a dislike or even hate of their kind of people (not just the theology or lack thereof). I don't want anyone to feel like they have to live secret or closeted lives. And it's pretty obvious that the stratification of Western culture is causing a lot of real problems.
I am unsure exactly your meaning regarding the stratification of Western culture, though I assume its in reference to inequality. If this is the case then I agree. However, I don't believe it stems from Western culture but from a culture of consumerism. Capitalism often receives the blame though I believe it is our lack of discipline as a society. Out consistent drive of want - material items, money and power. Religion, be it Catholicism, Protestant, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc..., teaches to lead a far simpler life; Buddhism strives to be content; minimalist.
Does capitalism thrive if everyone in society reduces their wants, focusing more on their needs and being content with their current belongings? I would think so, though it would look much different with current economic measurements needing drastic revisions.
Is religious belief required to move society in this direction? Not necessarily. Though deep, open philosophical and theological discussion is required. Agnostics, atheists and religious individuals need to be able to discuss matters, find similarities in their beliefs - how they guide their lives.
Since the millennium we have all become aware of our differences, but not our similarities. Division consistently drives our lives which will increase the stratification of Western culture. A main area being reduced is Western Civilization history and thought. It would be hard to argue the United States was founded on ideas outside Western civilization which goes back to Greek and Roman thought, but this is now seen as a negative.
In the end we need to have open discussions, be aware of our history, both the positive and negative aspects and understand the negatives that happened in the US have happened all around the world and still occurring. In the end I believe spiritual discussion and reformation is required to reset society will maintaining freedom of religion being of the utmost importance.
Does capitalism thrive if everyone in society reduces their wants, focusing more on their needs and being content with their current belongings? I would think so, though it would look much different with current economic measurements needing drastic revisions.
Is religious belief required to move society in this direction? Not necessarily. Though deep, open philosophical and theological discussion is required. Agnostics, atheists and religious individuals need to be able to discuss matters, find similarities in their beliefs - how they guide their lives.
Since the millennium we have all become aware of our differences, but not our similarities. Division consistently drives our lives which will increase the stratification of Western culture. A main area being reduced is Western Civilization history and thought. It would be hard to argue the United States was founded on ideas outside Western civilization which goes back to Greek and Roman thought, but this is now seen as a negative.
In the end we need to have open discussions, be aware of our history, both the positive and negative aspects and understand the negatives that happened in the US have happened all around the world and still occurring. In the end I believe spiritual discussion and reformation is required to reset society will maintaining freedom of religion being of the utmost importance.
Isn't it impossible to have a "rational" discussion of metaphysics or the supernatural, by definition?
Have you encountered the SF writings of R.A. Lafferty? He was greatly influenced by Augustine & Aquinas. His writing seamlessly blended science, history, theology, philosophy, metaphysics and speculative fiction.
>Currently in the US we are losing our sense cultural understanding
Season 1 of Sleepy Hollow has much commentary on this topic, from the perspective of a "lost founding father" who reawakens in modern day America.
>Currently in the US we are losing our sense cultural understanding
Season 1 of Sleepy Hollow has much commentary on this topic, from the perspective of a "lost founding father" who reawakens in modern day America.
I have not heard of him, but I will certainly check him out. I will also looking into Sleepy Hollow. Thank you for the recommendations.
Some links and an interview that mentions Aquinas: http://www.sanduskyregister.com/story/201501160010
Wow, that's great. Thanks for the link! It's one of my dreams to have the hardcover (or leather-bound!) collection.
Augustine has always been the big guy for me when it comes to classical philosophy. I even used to have the first words of the Confessions engraved on my skis. ("Thou art great, O Lord", good words when admiring the majesty of creation shortly before heading downhill at speed.)
The review does full justice to his subtlety. The Confessions are a really hard read, as you say, but worth the effort. I find it interesting that he flourished in a time that many consider the decline of classical civilization. His treatment of time for instance is the equal of anything I have read in Plato.
The review does full justice to his subtlety. The Confessions are a really hard read, as you say, but worth the effort. I find it interesting that he flourished in a time that many consider the decline of classical civilization. His treatment of time for instance is the equal of anything I have read in Plato.
Also glad to see Peter Brown is still writing. One of the original, old school Oxford "Greats" from a bygone era when Greek and Latin mastery was still a prerequisite to considering oneself an educated individual.
His latest would make an interesting basis for an "alternative history" of Monasticism ;)
Treasure in Heaven: The Holy Poor in Early Christianity
http://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/4867
From the description:
"Seen against the backdrop of Asia, Christianity might have opted for a Buddhist model by which holy monks lived by begging alone. Instead, the monks of Egypt upheld an alternative model that linked the monk to humanity and the monastery to society through acceptance of the common, human bond of work."
His latest would make an interesting basis for an "alternative history" of Monasticism ;)
Treasure in Heaven: The Holy Poor in Early Christianity
http://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/4867
From the description:
"Seen against the backdrop of Asia, Christianity might have opted for a Buddhist model by which holy monks lived by begging alone. Instead, the monks of Egypt upheld an alternative model that linked the monk to humanity and the monastery to society through acceptance of the common, human bond of work."
I finished Confessions a few weeks ago, and this review does it justice. The first few chapters, which are autobiographical, completely changed how I view antiquity. From "ah, these people are tough to relate to and certainly must have led much different lives than me," to "Augustine could come spend a day with me, or I a day with him, and neither of us would feel much out of place." He is today's "young professional" -- working, traveling, and being entertained in ways that are strikingly similar to today's tech worker.
The latter half of the book is a bit trickier. Like the other commenter, his treatment of time was food for thought - not just for me but for philosophers and scientists for centuries to come. After finishing that chapter I got lost in Wikipedia learning more about it, eventually finishing with articles on general relativity (Augustine to Einstein... not what I expected from a 16 century old book).
Anyways, read Confessions. It's really worth it.
The latter half of the book is a bit trickier. Like the other commenter, his treatment of time was food for thought - not just for me but for philosophers and scientists for centuries to come. After finishing that chapter I got lost in Wikipedia learning more about it, eventually finishing with articles on general relativity (Augustine to Einstein... not what I expected from a 16 century old book).
Anyways, read Confessions. It's really worth it.
I fully agree. The Confessions is an incredibly modern book, when I read it the first time I couldn't believe it was written at the time of the Roman Empire. Also, the text is full of wit, like when he describes time (“What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know.”).
Well worth watching is Roberto Rossellini's Augustine of Hippo, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072617/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt
"Roberto Rossellini directed a string of biographies in the 1960s and early 70s, all of which revolved around famous historical figures (Christ, Pascal, Descartes, Socrates, St Francis, St Augustine, King Louis XIV, Giuseppe Garbaldi, and one unrealized project about Marx), and all of which utilized a sparse, stripped down aesthetic which revoked the pomp and pageantry typically ascribed to such characters."
"Roberto Rossellini directed a string of biographies in the 1960s and early 70s, all of which revolved around famous historical figures (Christ, Pascal, Descartes, Socrates, St Francis, St Augustine, King Louis XIV, Giuseppe Garbaldi, and one unrealized project about Marx), and all of which utilized a sparse, stripped down aesthetic which revoked the pomp and pageantry typically ascribed to such characters."
Henry James and St. Augustine on the front page at the same time? Digging the literary flavor, HN.
A fun (if longish) read about how Augustine's strange relationship with his mother led to his philosophy of sin:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/19/how-st-augusti...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/19/how-st-augusti...
If you want some context, I highly recommend this clear, engaging, in-depth run-through of Scholasticism, the leading Medieval philosophy which was Augustine's legacy.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scholasticism
(If you get a paywall, pull up the link in a search engine and open it from there.)
You might be thinking: Scholasticism, Augustine, Britannica ... cannot possibly be engaging. I recommend the Enlightenment approach: Try it for yourself.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scholasticism
(If you get a paywall, pull up the link in a search engine and open it from there.)
You might be thinking: Scholasticism, Augustine, Britannica ... cannot possibly be engaging. I recommend the Enlightenment approach: Try it for yourself.
Nice. The version I first read had "Thou"s, "art"s, and "wherefore"s all over the place. It made the denser chapters less accessible. I'll probably look at this one in a year or two, once the price has gone down a bit ;)
I think we read the same version. "Verisimilitude" was a new word for me. I'm still trying to find a way to use it in conversation.
We use it constantly in bars in Berkeley. Example:
"The pronouncements of [insert least favorite politician here] do not exhibit the faintest degree of verisimilitude." You can add rhetorical flourish by taking a thoughtful sip of beer immediately thereafter.
Along the same lines is 'verily' - and as you mention, beer (and chin stroking while looking ponderous) is always involved.
"The advent of photography freed painting from the task of verisimilitude, opening the door to a world of abstraction."
I dreamed I saw St. Augustine, alive as you or me, tearing through these quarters in the utmost misery, with a blanket underneath his arm and a coat of solid gold, searching for the very souls whom already have been sold.
Like this article mentions, you get to see Augustine's view of God change throughout Confessions, from master (rules, rules, rules--no fun) to lover through a deeper understanding of grace, a lot like my own journey. Augustine has been a huge instrument for me in developing a correct view of God through his great arguments/debates and by introducing me to reformed doctrine (which you will come in contact with if you search Augustine's writings enough).
I love the quote from his conversion after reading Romans 13:
> No further would I read, […] nor had I any need; instantly at the end of this sentence, a clear light flooded my heart and all the darkness of doubt vanished away.
Anyways, like I said, I'm really happy to see this posted here. I'm interested in seeing where the discussion goes.