Show HN: 4chan on the Ethereum blockchain(davidwong.fr)
davidwong.fr
Show HN: 4chan on the Ethereum blockchain
http://davidwong.fr/FiveMedium/
93 comments
They missed a golden opportunity to call it blockchan.
I built something similar to this - but as a Twitter clone - at ETHWaterloo a couple of weekends ago. Posting messages this way is relatively expensive - storage on Ethereum isn't cheap. Using contract event logs saves you ~10x the gas cost. Here's the project for anyone interested: https://github.com/jdjkelly/transponder
The contract itself is simple:
The contract itself is simple:
pragma solidity ^0.4.15;
contract Transponder {
address public owner;
event Squawk(address indexed _author, string _text);
function Transponder() {
owner = msg.sender;
}
function squawk(string _text) {
Squawk(msg.sender, _text);
}
}
There's a microblogging clone, twister, which works pretty well, but its not on the Eth blockchain
http://twister.net.co/
http://twister.net.co/
There's actually a full fledged Twitter clone on Ethereum - http://leeroy.io. The difference is that it uses full-fledged contract storage, so the cost-per-post is ~10x the gas.
My attention has re-oriented towards Whisper instead, which ultimately is the right place for this in the web3 stack.
My attention has re-oriented towards Whisper instead, which ultimately is the right place for this in the web3 stack.
I really admire the work you are doing to fight censorship. I may be mistaken but it appears that posting messages that are impossible to hide/delete has been solved (since governments cannot afford to block BTC).
However, the government can simply use DNS to block your website. Do you have any plans to overcome this? Any promising research that would make a website unblockable by China Great Firewall?
However, the government can simply use DNS to block your website. Do you have any plans to overcome this? Any promising research that would make a website unblockable by China Great Firewall?
The browser portion of the application does not need to be served from the internet. Dapps (decentralized apps), if they are well designed, do not require anything other than a copy of the HTML/JavaScript and access to a copy of the Ethereum Foundation blockchain (better yet: access to node receiving new transactions - but that's not necessary for historical reads). In fact, this application doesn't even have a website where it is hosted - that's unnecessary from a strictly technical point of view.
If you're okay with high latency (i.e. you are primarily reading from blocks, not writing new transactions, which is probably an accurate profile for the /consumption/ of censored data), then a full copy of the Ethereum Foundation blockchain could be carried on a $40 microSD card and carried (or flown, or dropped), well, anywhere.
If you're okay with high latency (i.e. you are primarily reading from blocks, not writing new transactions, which is probably an accurate profile for the /consumption/ of censored data), then a full copy of the Ethereum Foundation blockchain could be carried on a $40 microSD card and carried (or flown, or dropped), well, anywhere.
>Fee to post: 0.001 ethers (0.30 USD)
>Fee to reply: 0.0005 ethers (0.15 USD)
DOA
Blockchain apps are too expensive to operate vs paying for traditional bandwidth and hdd space.
>Fee to reply: 0.0005 ethers (0.15 USD)
DOA
Blockchain apps are too expensive to operate vs paying for traditional bandwidth and hdd space.
I see much lower fees...
https://imgur.com/dUiBxin
Prob had his gas price set at default 21 when 0.1 gwei will do just fine most times.
Maybe it's bugged though because those numbers are quite a bit different.
Edit: oops looks like I was on the rinkeby testnet
https://imgur.com/dUiBxin
Prob had his gas price set at default 21 when 0.1 gwei will do just fine most times.
Maybe it's bugged though because those numbers are quite a bit different.
Edit: oops looks like I was on the rinkeby testnet
This statement is too broad.
Current state of software is only appropriate for some use cases. Email/text messaging (like 4chan) are not practical uses. Financial business logic handling is a great use case.
Current state of software is only appropriate for some use cases. Email/text messaging (like 4chan) are not practical uses. Financial business logic handling is a great use case.
Financial business logic is not a great use case, approximately no one uses it for that. Almost all of the interest in BTC/ETH is driven by speculation and greed, which is a shame as it's a whole new computing paradigm.
People speculate precisely because it's a whole new computing paradigm.
Good use cases exist because of the viability of the platform, not of their popularity. And even I meant to communicate financial "business logic", which is widely used in ICO's.
Speculation and greed is the foundation of all new technology.
Entrepreneur: 'Hey, look if we boil water it moves this piston'
Investors: 'We speculate that this may be important in the future, here's money'
Entrepreneurs: 'I made a steam engine'
Investors: 'We speculate that this may be important in the future, here's money'
Entrepreneurs: 'I made a railway system'
Investors: 'We speculate that this may be important in the future, here's money'I do not see greed anywhere in this exchange. Also there's a difference between what people normally describe as investment vs speculation. The first being assuming a growth of value of something useful. The second is making money on the difference in a value, completely ignoring what the value represents. (yeah, the line is a bit fuzzy in practice)
Maybe too expensive for something like 4chan. But those fees might make sense if you were wanting to use the blockchain as a form of proof or tamper-resistance.
For instance, how Keybase uses the bitcoin blockchain: https://keybase.io/docs/server_security/merkle_root_in_bitco...
For instance, how Keybase uses the bitcoin blockchain: https://keybase.io/docs/server_security/merkle_root_in_bitco...
I also wonder about this. It's really hard to compete with free. Even < 1 cent is likely too much.
This is not entirely accurate. The competition isn't against free, 4chan servers do cost money to run.
I experimented with this some. When you think about the costs of scaling and managing a database, the costs to post might not be so bad.
You are also forgetting the slow transaction times that occur in a public blockchain.
A transaction is rather fast on the Ethereum blockchain. I've had reddit posts that took longer to settle than Ethereum transactions.
Ethereum is also not in a finished state. Scaling options haven't been fully explored yet. The move to PoS alone should decrease block times.
Historically, discussions were done in Usenet on much longer timespans, so this shouldn't prevent using it for real discussions.
Ethereum is also not in a finished state. Scaling options haven't been fully explored yet. The move to PoS alone should decrease block times.
Historically, discussions were done in Usenet on much longer timespans, so this shouldn't prevent using it for real discussions.
Ethereum is a DAG so the block time is very low, like 10 or 15s.
This response lacks vision.
Would you have paid 15 cents to tell them they lack vision?
Somethings make sense on the blockchain but I don't know about a clone of the epicenter of shitposting.
Somethings make sense on the blockchain but I don't know about a clone of the epicenter of shitposting.
Comment I was replying to claimed DAPP's are worthless because 4chan (maybe) isn't a good fit for them.
>Blockchain apps are too expensive to operate vs paying for traditional bandwidth and hdd space.
As for whether or not I would pay to post? The answer is maybe. It is certainly not "100% no." I'm willing to keep an open mind.
>Blockchain apps are too expensive to operate vs paying for traditional bandwidth and hdd space.
As for whether or not I would pay to post? The answer is maybe. It is certainly not "100% no." I'm willing to keep an open mind.
Came across the thread earlier on Reddit and tried it. Pretty much fun. I used real money ($0.30) per post but you can get some Testnet Eth from the Rinkleby faucet(0), switch to Rinkleby on your Metamask plugin(1) and you're good to go.
Also with Eth you can lower the gas(fee) all the way down to 0.1 gwei($0.01) and you'd still have impressive confirmation times. Far better than bitcoin at the moment in my modest opinion and Eth isn't even a currency.
(0)https://faucet.rinkeby.io/
(1)https://metamask.io/
(0)https://faucet.rinkeby.io/
(1)https://metamask.io/
So what happens if someone post illegal content to this? As it's on the blockchain it cannot ever be deleted. Plus anyone what stores the Ethereum blockchain (for example to mine or run a node) now has illegal content on their hard drive as well. How will this play out?
Well it appears we will find out very soon
Doesn't appear images are actually stored, just linked. So imgur or whoever would, presumably, remove it and miners would just have a broken link in their blockchain.
I can't think of plaintext that would be both illegal and small enough to store in the blockchain.
I can't think of plaintext that would be both illegal and small enough to store in the blockchain.
Extortion and threats are both short and illegal in the US. Ideally, it would only be illegal to create them in the first place, not copy them because it happens to be a part of some dataset, but IANAL.
I can see this being a pretty terrible tool for doxxing.
"This contract contains all your private information, embarrassing life stories and more. Pay $100 per month or decryption key will be released." ?
Blackmail is certainly a concern, but even garden variety harassment would be made far more harmful by the inability to have it removed.
It calls into question the very idea of "illegal content."
If you think about it, what does it mean that content is illegal? How can you forbid a set of ones and zeroes?
It's a fake idea we've invented, and new technology has a way of forcing us to realize that.
That said, practically, the world will adapt however it adapts. If we can survive the advent of unbreakable encryption, a little trolling won't matter much.
If you think about it, what does it mean that content is illegal? How can you forbid a set of ones and zeroes?
It's a fake idea we've invented, and new technology has a way of forcing us to realize that.
That said, practically, the world will adapt however it adapts. If we can survive the advent of unbreakable encryption, a little trolling won't matter much.
> How can you forbid a set of ones and zeroes?
This is like asking, "How can you forbid a set of iron atoms?" in reference to guns.
This is like asking, "How can you forbid a set of iron atoms?" in reference to guns.
Yes. And that leads straight to the question of morals and ethics, which the courts of every country are built around.
Guns can cause harm. Does information?
If someone photographs your private life and makes it public, that could be called information. But it's not quite the same: That's an action that goes against your will, and it seems quite ethical to let you enforce it.
Yet even still, how do you propose to do that? What happens when a service literally cannot delete the information? And when that service becomes crucial infrastructure, what then?
These are questions that technology is going to force us to address. Pretending that it's naive won't change that. Decentralization is coming.
Guns can cause harm. Does information?
If someone photographs your private life and makes it public, that could be called information. But it's not quite the same: That's an action that goes against your will, and it seems quite ethical to let you enforce it.
Yet even still, how do you propose to do that? What happens when a service literally cannot delete the information? And when that service becomes crucial infrastructure, what then?
These are questions that technology is going to force us to address. Pretending that it's naive won't change that. Decentralization is coming.
Speech is far more dangerous than guns which is why the second amendment came second. With a gun you can shoot dozens, maybe hundreds of people. A charismatic speaker can cause megadeaths and will, sooner or later, cause gigadeaths.
Like information, guns may cause harm. It sounds like you're looking for an absolute definition of illegal. I don't believe that exists given the evolving nature of law and society. Bottom line: information, content, or whatever you want to call it can be illegal, regardless of the elements that make up its physical form. Who is liable in the chain of creation and distribution of the content may be debated.
Fine; corrected. I grew up with guns, so I didn't mean anything by it.
To your edit, you're just punting the question. What do you do when the information cannot be removed, and the service is critical infrastructure? What happens when the content is in a decentralized internet that everyone uses, and that everyone receives automatically?
You can punish the uploader, sure. But do you ban the service? You'll take part of your population with it. Most countries seem to agree that banning Bitcoin is a bad idea, for example.
So what do you propose?
To your edit, you're just punting the question. What do you do when the information cannot be removed, and the service is critical infrastructure? What happens when the content is in a decentralized internet that everyone uses, and that everyone receives automatically?
You can punish the uploader, sure. But do you ban the service? You'll take part of your population with it. Most countries seem to agree that banning Bitcoin is a bad idea, for example.
So what do you propose?
> So what do you propose?
I'd do what we do with every advancement that challenges are existing paradigms: study it, debate it, and seek out creative and equitable ways to deter the negative externalities. That may involve banning, restricting or regulating services.
> What do you do when the information cannot be removed, and the service is critical infrastructure? What happens when the content is in a decentralized internet that everyone uses, and that everyone receives automatically?
Even in this scenario, there is still going to be a common denominator that can be regulated to control illegal content (ISPs for example).
I'd do what we do with every advancement that challenges are existing paradigms: study it, debate it, and seek out creative and equitable ways to deter the negative externalities. That may involve banning, restricting or regulating services.
> What do you do when the information cannot be removed, and the service is critical infrastructure? What happens when the content is in a decentralized internet that everyone uses, and that everyone receives automatically?
Even in this scenario, there is still going to be a common denominator that can be regulated to control illegal content (ISPs for example).
Even in this scenario, there is still going to be a common denominator that can be regulated to control illegal content (ISPs for example).
Imagine that Bitcoin's genesis block contained an encrypted image. Satoshi today releases the key, and it turns out to be the worst image imaginable. BTC doesn't drop; the price keeps going up over time. What do you do?
If you have an answer, it would be an important one.
Imagine that Bitcoin's genesis block contained an encrypted image. Satoshi today releases the key, and it turns out to be the worst image imaginable. BTC doesn't drop; the price keeps going up over time. What do you do?
If you have an answer, it would be an important one.
If what you’re getting at is does raw information in and of itself cause harm? No, but I would argue that information can directly cause harm when learned, which is the only way information is used (information has no meaning if it cannot be applied and learned). Example: learning the information that a loved one has passed can cause a person harm.
It can cause negative feelings, sure. But is that the same as causing harm?
I mean this quite seriously: Should feelings alone be enshrined and protected? It's a strange question with no clear answers.
I mean this quite seriously: Should feelings alone be enshrined and protected? It's a strange question with no clear answers.
Note that grief can directly cause harm and can kill.
To take it to a logical extreme: using this argument you can say that calling digital child porn photos illegal because they are just ones and zeros is silly, which is obviously not true. Illegal content is not a “fake” idea, even it it’s used in bad ways by bad actors. Ones and zeros aren’t illegal because numbers aren’t illegal, but it’s the arrangement of those ones and zeros, the context, that is key.
Everyone is doing their best to wriggle their way away from this question, but I'm going to force you to address it:
What happens when everyone automatically receives all content, and the content cannot be deleted? Now assume the service is something everyone uses. Imagine it's a decentralized internet, and banning it will cause your country to fall behind. What do you do then?
This isn't quite a baseless hypothetical. It's one logical outcome of decentralization. And sooner or later, we're going to need to answer these hard questions.
What happens when everyone automatically receives all content, and the content cannot be deleted? Now assume the service is something everyone uses. Imagine it's a decentralized internet, and banning it will cause your country to fall behind. What do you do then?
This isn't quite a baseless hypothetical. It's one logical outcome of decentralization. And sooner or later, we're going to need to answer these hard questions.
Before I can answer that question, how would you force everyone to receive all content, and force them to ingest it? Being decentralized doesn’t imply you receive all content.
Let's just say we're lucky Bitcoin wasn't built with an image renderer from the very beginning.
But that's also an answer to your question. It's easy to imagine if Bitcoin were. So let's say it was. What do you do now that Bitcoin is $6k?
(It's easy to argue that Bitcoin may not have attained $6k if it embedded an image renderer. But I think a future service will attain the same importance.)
But that's also an answer to your question. It's easy to imagine if Bitcoin were. So let's say it was. What do you do now that Bitcoin is $6k?
(It's easy to argue that Bitcoin may not have attained $6k if it embedded an image renderer. But I think a future service will attain the same importance.)
That's a very naive view. While illegal content might "only" get you incarcerated in most of the western world, it will get you straight up killed in a lot of the other countries.
This doesn't stop just because the technology is unable to delete anything.
This doesn't stop just because the technology is unable to delete anything.
It does stop. When a technology becomes important, countries who forbid that technology miss out. The tech migrates elsewhere, taking talent with it. How many times have we seen that pattern?
You can try to make Ethereum illegal if you want, but it'd be a tactical mistake. Ditto for unbreakable encryption.
In fact, explain why it makes no sense to make unbreakable encryption illegal. Show your work. I suspect the same argument you'd use for that will apply to this.
Required reading: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
You can try to make Ethereum illegal if you want, but it'd be a tactical mistake. Ditto for unbreakable encryption.
In fact, explain why it makes no sense to make unbreakable encryption illegal. Show your work. I suspect the same argument you'd use for that will apply to this.
Required reading: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
It's not a fake idea. There's all kinds of illegal content. The encoding is irrelevant.
> How can you forbid a set of ones and zeroes?
The courts seem to think they can make some numbers illegal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number
The courts seem to think they can make some numbers illegal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number
this is reads silly if you don't ignore this is just a new implementation of an old concept.
its similar to hearing how banal things are now uncertain because a computer was involved at some point.
you always could store plain text in block chains. why would it change anything if it's now wrapped into a image board shell?
likewise, there was p2p and cache layers since forever. why now this should be treated as something else?
its similar to hearing how banal things are now uncertain because a computer was involved at some point.
you always could store plain text in block chains. why would it change anything if it's now wrapped into a image board shell?
likewise, there was p2p and cache layers since forever. why now this should be treated as something else?
Interesting!
I think this is the contract: https://etherchain.org/account/0x470fb19D08c3d2eB8923A31d140...
If you look at a transaction hash that transferred nozero ETH to the account, you can see the ASCII encoded post.
I think this is the contract: https://etherchain.org/account/0x470fb19D08c3d2eB8923A31d140...
If you look at a transaction hash that transferred nozero ETH to the account, you can see the ASCII encoded post.
Etherscan is nice for this: https://etherscan.io/address/0x470fb19D08c3d2eB8923A31d1408c...
I wonder if the contract supports a way to pull posts when some shitlord posts CP
author here, I posted about publishing the smart contract[1] which might be interesting to some people as I had no idea how much it would cost prior to doing this.
The source code is on etherscan.io[2] so you can check it for yourself, there are no functions that allow me to remove a post by someone. Whatever ends up there will stay there. Images and videos are not hosted on the blockchain though (thank humanity it's already large enough), so there are always ways to get rid of CP. Right now most of the images there are from imgur.
[1]: https://cryptologie.net/article/425/publishing-my-smart-cont...
[2]: https://etherscan.io/address/0x470fb19D08c3d2eB8923A31d1408c...
The source code is on etherscan.io[2] so you can check it for yourself, there are no functions that allow me to remove a post by someone. Whatever ends up there will stay there. Images and videos are not hosted on the blockchain though (thank humanity it's already large enough), so there are always ways to get rid of CP. Right now most of the images there are from imgur.
[1]: https://cryptologie.net/article/425/publishing-my-smart-cont...
[2]: https://etherscan.io/address/0x470fb19D08c3d2eB8923A31d1408c...
Oh, cool. Thanks! That looks like some interesting reading.
This isn't a new problem… https://www.quora.com/If-illegal-material-e-g-child-porn-wou...
Good point not only in regards to CP, but about one being able to pull bad things out in general.
I wonder too. Most likely can pull em from whatever front-end
is presenting the ledger but they stay in the blockchain, which makes the legality of hosting a node interesting ...
Not really how Steem handles this either ... but they would be a precedent...
Is the image data itself on the chain, or just a url?
perhaps it would be better to advertise as an "imageboard" or "futaba-style imageboard", or even "4chan clone" etc? since 4chan is not the original website of that style. sure, it is the most popular but to say "4chan on" something gives off a very different message
Be aware of goatse in the OP link
The internet exists for surprise goatse and cats.
I wonder what the goatse guy is doing right now?
I wonder what the goatse guy is doing right now?
Running an ICO.
I'm not kidding.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne78vd/goatse-cry...
(Unless you're asking about the guy in the photo, no idea about him. I hope he remains happily married, and ... limber.)
I'm not kidding.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne78vd/goatse-cry...
(Unless you're asking about the guy in the photo, no idea about him. I hope he remains happily married, and ... limber.)
Jeez that’s a niche currency.
I was wondering about the guy in the photo though.
I imagine he’s probably “relaxing” on a yacht from all that internet fame money.
Edit: had to quote “relaxing” because, yeah it’s the guy in the pic so who knows.
I was wondering about the guy in the photo though.
I imagine he’s probably “relaxing” on a yacht from all that internet fame money.
Edit: had to quote “relaxing” because, yeah it’s the guy in the pic so who knows.
Pretty sure he's still posting new content to one of the more modern porn hosting sites.
Hadn't seen Goatse in quite a while.
I think it would make sense (in a lulz way) to run the 4chan clone on one of the Ethereum testnets, instead of the mainnet. It's a lot cheaper, because you're not paying for permanence!
You can run it on the Rinkeby test network, just switch to it via your wallet (metamask, mist, ...) and reload the page.
It's a nice proof of concept, but $0.3 for posting seems extremely expensive. In addition, there's no guaranteed visibility unlike creating an ad on any platform, so why would I want to post here? (I'm not trying to complain, I'm curious if I'm missing anything)
Could you elaborate on how you mean there's no guaranteed visibility?
Why would you pay x > 0$ for posting an image? I think the only reason is if you're somehow advertising something and you expect somehow a return > x.
Block chain could be great, but you also need somehow to guarantee me a level of visibility, like an ad provider does. For example, even the job posts on HN decay slowly in the homepage, guaranteeing a pretty good visibility.
Otherwise the risk is that I post an image, paying, and suddenly other people post and mine disappears immediately.
Again, I'm not 1. complaining about 4chan, and 2. complaining about this as a proof of concept. But this as a real product has no incentive for me to really pay for posting.
Block chain could be great, but you also need somehow to guarantee me a level of visibility, like an ad provider does. For example, even the job posts on HN decay slowly in the homepage, guaranteeing a pretty good visibility.
Otherwise the risk is that I post an image, paying, and suddenly other people post and mine disappears immediately.
Again, I'm not 1. complaining about 4chan, and 2. complaining about this as a proof of concept. But this as a real product has no incentive for me to really pay for posting.
It's a social image board, not a billboard. You could advertise on it if you want, but it would probably be considered spam.
I thought that a big appeal to 4chan is that the content will disappear after a few days at most? By using this surely the content will be around forever?
Give me the ability to create the contract via a GUI, fund it in real-time, hedge it for me, and transfer funds to USD as the contract executes. Do all that for me and I'll never use another bank or payment processor again.
>transfer funds to USD as the contract executes
this can't be done in a contract, you'll need some kind of payment processor to do that
this can't be done in a contract, you'll need some kind of payment processor to do that
Free decentralized social networking: Rotonde https://louis.center/p2p-social-networking/
nfsw tag please, just clicked on the link ended up looking at a dudes asshole. :sad_face:
[deleted]
Blog link at the bottom of the page is interesting:
https://cryptologie.net/article/424/writing-a-dapp-for-the-e...