We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill(eff.org)
eff.org
We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/12/urgent-we-only-have-hours-left-stop-nsa-expansion-bill
188 comments
Yes, yes I am.
For years, my two biggest spheres of advocacy have been environmentalism and privacy/anti-surveillance.
What I've noticed, with that background, is that privacy activism has steadily become more like environmental activism.
With rare exceptions (e.g. the ozone layer), environmentalism is an endless, grinding rear-guard action. Extinct species do not become unextinct. Destroyed habitats do not recover, at least not within hundreds of years. Draining the Glen Canyon Dam will not restore Glen Canyon; Church Rock will never be remediated. And the threats are endless and everywhere: 4,500 species are critically endangered right now, global warming is set for 3+ degrees Celsius, the Great Barrier Reef might die entirely.
Attacks on privacy aren't new, but they seem have changed. The Clipper Chip was a central, recognizable enemy, promoted by branches of the government citizens can relate to. 24 hour turnaround on surveillance legalization for intelligence agencies is part of a new and horrible political landscape. SOPA and PIPA were indirect attacks, part of a state-corporate partnership that lets each party do the things the other is barred from. And even those were too central and easy to oppose - now they're coming back piecemeal, in budget bills and trade agreements where they're harder to address.
And as with the environment, what's lost is lost. Repealing surveillance laws is rare and unsustainable. Fighting surveillance in open courts is impossible; fighting it in FISA courts is a Kafkaesque nightmare of secret evidence and lack of standing. Corporate data-gathering is unprovable, and user information breaches are irreversible. Stolen identities can't be changed or recaptured.
So yes: I'm tired. I'm tired, and it's not an accident, because we're on the wrong end of an asymmetric fight.
For years, my two biggest spheres of advocacy have been environmentalism and privacy/anti-surveillance.
What I've noticed, with that background, is that privacy activism has steadily become more like environmental activism.
With rare exceptions (e.g. the ozone layer), environmentalism is an endless, grinding rear-guard action. Extinct species do not become unextinct. Destroyed habitats do not recover, at least not within hundreds of years. Draining the Glen Canyon Dam will not restore Glen Canyon; Church Rock will never be remediated. And the threats are endless and everywhere: 4,500 species are critically endangered right now, global warming is set for 3+ degrees Celsius, the Great Barrier Reef might die entirely.
Attacks on privacy aren't new, but they seem have changed. The Clipper Chip was a central, recognizable enemy, promoted by branches of the government citizens can relate to. 24 hour turnaround on surveillance legalization for intelligence agencies is part of a new and horrible political landscape. SOPA and PIPA were indirect attacks, part of a state-corporate partnership that lets each party do the things the other is barred from. And even those were too central and easy to oppose - now they're coming back piecemeal, in budget bills and trade agreements where they're harder to address.
And as with the environment, what's lost is lost. Repealing surveillance laws is rare and unsustainable. Fighting surveillance in open courts is impossible; fighting it in FISA courts is a Kafkaesque nightmare of secret evidence and lack of standing. Corporate data-gathering is unprovable, and user information breaches are irreversible. Stolen identities can't be changed or recaptured.
So yes: I'm tired. I'm tired, and it's not an accident, because we're on the wrong end of an asymmetric fight.
And depressingly it won't rollback until tyrannical governments get in power and run amok.
The sheer damage politicians across the world are inflicting on future generations with these privacy laws are very depressing.
The sheer damage politicians across the world are inflicting on future generations with these privacy laws are very depressing.
But it's to prevent attacks in the short-term. If passing these laws were more immediately damaging than an actual attack (ie moving long-term consequences up) they might stop doing this.
Maybe we'll end up with a new political subculture that derives pride and some sense of personal identity from fighting this stuff; just like gun people almost enjoy supporting the NRA. (In some way I think computer rights would be a lot more fun to support if a large fraction of the public was against it, then we would have the satisfaction of arguing.)
I think that already exists. The political subculture is "privacy nut" computer nerds who wear EFF shirts. There just aren't that many of them.
To be fair, a large fraction of the public does subscribe to the notion of "I have nothing to hide, so mass surveillance is OK".
A large fraction of the gun community actually HATES the NRA for exactly the same reasons everybody else does. There's just no highly visible organizations for gun owners that, y'know, promote reasonable gun control and don't try and whip their members into wannabe race war frenzies.
Source: sitting in the gunsmith shop I work in right now
Source: sitting in the gunsmith shop I work in right now
Kinda off-topic but
4,500 species are critically endangered right now
You may find this pair of articles interesting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/we-dont-need-to-save-...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/12/15/53e6147c-...
Species do go extinct, but not at the rate we are experiencing today. Even if the current rate of species loss was equal to the historical rate, that does not mean that humans wish to live in such a natural state of chaos. Did American culture lose some of its heritage with the near-extinction of the buffalo? Is it any less of a failure of humankind to drive polar bears to extinction than it would be to obliterate the complete works of Jack London from the face of the Earth? That shit is cool, and we should try to preserve it for future generations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/we-dont-need-to-save-...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/12/15/53e6147c-...
Species do go extinct, but not at the rate we are experiencing today. Even if the current rate of species loss was equal to the historical rate, that does not mean that humans wish to live in such a natural state of chaos. Did American culture lose some of its heritage with the near-extinction of the buffalo? Is it any less of a failure of humankind to drive polar bears to extinction than it would be to obliterate the complete works of Jack London from the face of the Earth? That shit is cool, and we should try to preserve it for future generations.
I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events. It's natural they happen once in a while.
If we always preserve what we have, there will be no room for something new to develop.
If we always preserve what we have, there will be no room for something new to develop.
You realize we're not in a massive extinction event now right? You're comparing things like giant meteors killing all the dinosaurs to right now? If you can see the sun, we shouldn't have all these animals dying.
> You realize we're not in a massive extinction event now right?
We are, in fact, in a mass extinction event right now, with extinction rates estimated at 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than any previous such event.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
> If you can see the sun, we shouldn't have all these animals dying.
Not all previous mass extinctions have involved the sun be blotted out by impact or volcanic events, though several have.
We are, in fact, in a mass extinction event right now, with extinction rates estimated at 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than any previous such event.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
> If you can see the sun, we shouldn't have all these animals dying.
Not all previous mass extinctions have involved the sun be blotted out by impact or volcanic events, though several have.
Sure. A mass extinction event which will take humans with it. Then a few million years down the line new speciation will fill all of the ecological niches in whatever equilibrium arises. The planet and life themselves are unlikely to be completely wiped out, absent some future technology we can’t yet imagine.
As long as you don’t have any attachment to anything more narrow than “all life on earth” (e.g. your family, language, city, country, culture, species, ...) thriving for a long time into the future, there’s no reason not to just shrug at whatever impending apocalypse.
As long as you don’t have any attachment to anything more narrow than “all life on earth” (e.g. your family, language, city, country, culture, species, ...) thriving for a long time into the future, there’s no reason not to just shrug at whatever impending apocalypse.
Interesting wording - I indeed don't have any attachment to the things you mention. I do want intelligent life (for now, humanity) to survive and stay powerful, but I'll take the bet that we're adaptable enough to manage even if 90% of the other species perish.
> I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events.
No, they haven't; extinction rates in the current mass extinction event are much higher than previous ones.
No, they haven't; extinction rates in the current mass extinction event are much higher than previous ones.
You dying at mid 30s instead of living until your 80s and 90s is also a natural thing. It's not desirable just because it's natural.
But putting in practical terms of "what do I have to gain?", let me say this: every species is carrying unique genetic information that we can learn and employ to our advantages. Maybe a particular species doesn't have anything we can use right now, but might have in the future. Letting it be extinct mean we lose that information forever.
Genetic information is like nature's source code. Now imagine we can't write code, we can just use what's already out there. Every time a species dies, it's source code forever lost.
Like... plants in the Amazon forest. A lot of them served as the material for medicine. We used their "source code" to fight diseases, and fix human problems. And we are losing genetic source code we never even had time to analyze yet!
There are animals that can kind of rejuvenate, and they never die of old age. Imagine being able to "steal" their code and use it to make our health better! If they go extinct, we lost that source code. Forever.
There's no going back, no un-extinction. And we can't go to other planets to analyze their animals, since we haven't found alien life yet. All we have is the life that is available, and we're getting rid ot that life fast.
But putting in practical terms of "what do I have to gain?", let me say this: every species is carrying unique genetic information that we can learn and employ to our advantages. Maybe a particular species doesn't have anything we can use right now, but might have in the future. Letting it be extinct mean we lose that information forever.
Genetic information is like nature's source code. Now imagine we can't write code, we can just use what's already out there. Every time a species dies, it's source code forever lost.
Like... plants in the Amazon forest. A lot of them served as the material for medicine. We used their "source code" to fight diseases, and fix human problems. And we are losing genetic source code we never even had time to analyze yet!
There are animals that can kind of rejuvenate, and they never die of old age. Imagine being able to "steal" their code and use it to make our health better! If they go extinct, we lost that source code. Forever.
There's no going back, no un-extinction. And we can't go to other planets to analyze their animals, since we haven't found alien life yet. All we have is the life that is available, and we're getting rid ot that life fast.
You have to consider the period of time over which those species became extinct. Per E.O. Wilson, we're losing species at a rate that is ~1,000 times faster than anything in the past. If it continues, the loss in biodiversity will lead to the breakdown of many ecosystems that we depend on for survival.
The species extinction rate is very high at the moment, but large impact events probably produce a higher rate and larger ecosystem disruption. The Chicxulub impact extinction event was a much worse than our current situation.
Damning with faint praise if the best we can say about our actions is “hey, at least we’re not as bad as this globally cataclysmic asteroid impact”.
I've always thought that about pandas. They dont have a mating instinct and have a very difficult diet in terms of effort required per calorie.
And they're going out of business. Isn't that evolution?
And they're going out of business. Isn't that evolution?
An interesting read on this: https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3azkqx/til_na...
The short version - pandas are just find for their habitats, and aren't going out of business.
The traits of pandas sound odd, but they're actually common to lots of highly-successful animals. They mate just fine in the wild and are bulk feeders that can easily consume lots of low-efficiency food. Their population hasn't been in any kind of steady decline, but has plummeted twice, each time when large portions of their habitat were destroyed.
The short version - pandas are just find for their habitats, and aren't going out of business.
The traits of pandas sound odd, but they're actually common to lots of highly-successful animals. They mate just fine in the wild and are bulk feeders that can easily consume lots of low-efficiency food. Their population hasn't been in any kind of steady decline, but has plummeted twice, each time when large portions of their habitat were destroyed.
I realize Reddit comments are not generally citation worthy, but maybe read this one, and rethink what you've just posted?
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2rmf6h/til_t...
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2rmf6h/til_t...
They mate fine. Most of the problem has been linked to their zoo habitats, at least in the west. They were so precious that they weren't given the climbing structures (ie trees) to properly exercise in case they fall. The Chinese give them lots of climbing exercise and are breeding them just fine. Give humans too much food and no exercise and they stop breeding too.
Natural doesn't mean good. Climate change is natural in that humans arose naturally and have mostly followed our instincts. What we care about is keeping the environment in a state that works for us, not just letting natural processes play out.
[deleted]
Maybe the critically endangered species are not competitive with humans so they're cute and nice, while the species that thrive are competitive with humans so they're ugly, dirty and scary?
> 4,500 species are critically endangered right now
How many new species has evolution produced in that time? Zero?
How many new species has evolution produced in that time? Zero?
Are you implying that the more species in existance the better? If so why?
Do you want to live in a world without any other living things? How many living things do you want? Is life less interesting if there are only two types of living beings?
I think that the world as we know it is valuable to us because we enjoy it, and nothing more. If we can't appreciate the beauty of life (most of us can't persist on the pure beauty of mathematics or conceptual analysis), what's the point?
I think that the world as we know it is valuable to us because we enjoy it, and nothing more. If we can't appreciate the beauty of life (most of us can't persist on the pure beauty of mathematics or conceptual analysis), what's the point?
I agree that biodiversity is a source of joy and education for me, and I'd add that it's also because we know something about ourselves--we know of the insatiability, the psychopathy, and the destructive nature that comes hand-in-hand with classical capitalism. Many of us see our conservation efforts as a necessary opposing force and as a way of saving ourselves from ourselves.
Only two creatures isn't really possible. It isn't even an ecosystem, it's a Game of Life simulation.
Yes, this sounds a lot like a Mars colony.
And you think that would be a fulfilling life if it wasn't exploring a new planet and shaping it to the way we want?
In terms of exploring a new planet, by the time people land on mars, the area they land on would have been explored by spacecraft and rovers in high detail.
In terms of shaping a planet the way we want, we can do that on earth, and more so if we figured out how to live without being dependent on other earth organisms.
In terms of shaping a planet the way we want, we can do that on earth, and more so if we figured out how to live without being dependent on other earth organisms.
You didn't answer the question. Is that life fulfilling? And is it so for most / all of the population?
Accelerated by us, and about to consume us whole.
Yes, we are all fatigued, and that is how they win. Can't get your Bill through? Rename it and submit again. Still won't work? Tack it onto a Medicaid / NASA funding bill. Still won't get through? Change the wording so that it becomes more vague and open to interpretation in your favour and start again.
Bonus points if you give it a name involving patriotism, freedom, economic or personal health, or a backromym that spells out the same.
Bonus points if you give it a name involving patriotism, freedom, economic or personal health, or a backromym that spells out the same.
>"Bonus points if you give it a name involving patriotism, freedom, economic or personal health, or a backromym that spells out the same."
Indeed, and this "cognitive dissonance" technique is so widespread now that you can generally invert the message to find out the actual intention of the legislation is. Examples:
If you are cutting taxes for the wealthy donor class say it is bill to "help the middle class and the poor."
If you want to take health care away from people say "it is a bill that will help the American people."
If you want to empower a monopoly just state that "this is a bill designed to foster competition."
Indeed, and this "cognitive dissonance" technique is so widespread now that you can generally invert the message to find out the actual intention of the legislation is. Examples:
If you are cutting taxes for the wealthy donor class say it is bill to "help the middle class and the poor."
If you want to take health care away from people say "it is a bill that will help the American people."
If you want to empower a monopoly just state that "this is a bill designed to foster competition."
It's hardly so black and white, and people's failure to recognize this and operate in a respectful middle ground is a large factor in our current situation (which is worsening).
We've assimilated so many political positions into our cultural signaling subroutines that almost every issue is seen as "identity politics" nowadays. This occurs by design, because political profiteers are profited by creating clear boogeymen and corralling "their side" by shaming them for even considering the other side's POV.
We need to get back to a political ethos based on mutual respect, and an understanding that the "other side" is not an evil, but rather a check that is necessary to keep things balanced and smooth. Conservative principles do not arise out of the liberal caricatures that Republicans hate the poor, and liberal principles do not arise out of the conservative caricature that Democrats are communists vying for totalitarian economic control.
We cannot see each other as separate tribes and expect to succeed. We have to see each other as people of goodwill, on the same team, working for the same ultimate purposes.
Politics has been commoditized into television entertainment. There is no better indicator of this than TV showman Donald Trump employing those tactics to win the presidency. And like everything else on TV, what start out as mild differences gradually become "Flanders-ized" [0], and we hardly realize it until we look back to see how it was.
There are going to be winners and losers in any political action. That's a reality of political life and it's why we have the carefully-designed representative government systems that we have.
We need to acknowledge and weigh the costs on both sides instead of ignoring one side of the equation and saying "This bill ONLY exists to hurt Class Y!" or "This bill is great and has no negative consequences for anyone!"
Regardless, changes in technology including air travel, telecommunication, and 24-hour live news have permanently shifted our political landscape. We should think about how we can change our processes, our use of this technology, and/or both to ensure that we maintain a coherent and peaceful union, and stop the polarization. Polarization only serves the interests of pirates and opportunists.
[0] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization
We've assimilated so many political positions into our cultural signaling subroutines that almost every issue is seen as "identity politics" nowadays. This occurs by design, because political profiteers are profited by creating clear boogeymen and corralling "their side" by shaming them for even considering the other side's POV.
We need to get back to a political ethos based on mutual respect, and an understanding that the "other side" is not an evil, but rather a check that is necessary to keep things balanced and smooth. Conservative principles do not arise out of the liberal caricatures that Republicans hate the poor, and liberal principles do not arise out of the conservative caricature that Democrats are communists vying for totalitarian economic control.
We cannot see each other as separate tribes and expect to succeed. We have to see each other as people of goodwill, on the same team, working for the same ultimate purposes.
Politics has been commoditized into television entertainment. There is no better indicator of this than TV showman Donald Trump employing those tactics to win the presidency. And like everything else on TV, what start out as mild differences gradually become "Flanders-ized" [0], and we hardly realize it until we look back to see how it was.
There are going to be winners and losers in any political action. That's a reality of political life and it's why we have the carefully-designed representative government systems that we have.
We need to acknowledge and weigh the costs on both sides instead of ignoring one side of the equation and saying "This bill ONLY exists to hurt Class Y!" or "This bill is great and has no negative consequences for anyone!"
Regardless, changes in technology including air travel, telecommunication, and 24-hour live news have permanently shifted our political landscape. We should think about how we can change our processes, our use of this technology, and/or both to ensure that we maintain a coherent and peaceful union, and stop the polarization. Polarization only serves the interests of pirates and opportunists.
[0] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization
People aren't arguing against Conservative values though. They're arguing against the Republican party. How can you negotiate with a group of people that don't argue in good faith?
For example, the Democrats compromised on deficits. The Republicans insisted - deficits are important. Okay, we disagree. However, we'll respect some deficit rules to help keep it down. Okay.
Hey, Republicans have majority! First thing to do, massively increase deficits!
Let's now re-negotiate with that side?
For example, the Democrats compromised on deficits. The Republicans insisted - deficits are important. Okay, we disagree. However, we'll respect some deficit rules to help keep it down. Okay.
Hey, Republicans have majority! First thing to do, massively increase deficits!
Let's now re-negotiate with that side?
My original comment was only referring to devaluation of speech. But lets take the three examples that I used:
Trying to repeal health care provisions as your most pressing piece of legislation but not bothering to have an alternative plan to present to the population as a replacement.
Passing legislation which gives permanent tax breaks to corporations but then only temporary breaks to regular people(expires after 8 years.)
Repealing internet regulation in a monopolistic environment.
Please help me to understand how any of the above provides benefit to the average person? Where is the grey part of the spectrum I am not able to see. And by grey I mean the average voter being better off because of it.
I am not sure why you are reframing the context as left vs right. It's not about that, its about governments that represent people and not corporations and campaign contributions.
Trying to repeal health care provisions as your most pressing piece of legislation but not bothering to have an alternative plan to present to the population as a replacement.
Passing legislation which gives permanent tax breaks to corporations but then only temporary breaks to regular people(expires after 8 years.)
Repealing internet regulation in a monopolistic environment.
Please help me to understand how any of the above provides benefit to the average person? Where is the grey part of the spectrum I am not able to see. And by grey I mean the average voter being better off because of it.
I am not sure why you are reframing the context as left vs right. It's not about that, its about governments that represent people and not corporations and campaign contributions.
I was trying to keep this short. :C See last section for tl;dr.
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Health care repeal: Insurance premiums have skyrocketed since the ACA went into effect. Just this year, I know a small business owner whose premium for high-deductible family plan has gone up 2.5x. My employer-provided health insurance premium increased a little (relatively at least), but both the individual and family deductibles jumped by about 40%.
Repealing the ACA doesn't include artificial price controls, etc., but the common belief is that the ACA is one of the biggest reasons that premiums have gone up, and that repealing it will allow them to come back down.
I understand that the causal relationship is arguable, but you asked for a perspective on how it helps the average person. The perspective is that the average person who isn't getting subsidized health insurance is getting raked over the coals (along with their employer, who usually pays 60-80% of the monthly premium), and that perspective is absolutely reflected in the real world where people are being forced to pay thousands more for less than they had last year.
"Without a replacement" isn't considered a big issue because it's not like repealing the ACA shuts down the medical facilities/industry in any real way. They'll continue to operate and health care will still be available. Everyone is not going to die because the medical system reverts to the regulatory structure that was in place five years ago. The insurance situation will get better for some and worse for others, but that's at worst a lateral movement, and it's arguably a positive because it allows people to forgo health insurance altogether again, which means the insurers will have to offer something for the "Well I'm not even going to bother" crowd.
This is another situation where polarization has caused us to miss the forest for the trees. The medical-industrial complex in this country is completely out of control. Completely. Everyone knows this. We need an elegant solution (and most conservatives don't consider a blank check from the government elegant), but we're not going to get one with each group playing off of each other and their politicians just toggling the situation in favor of their base every 4-8 years.
We have to hold our politicians accountable and demand something that is workable and stable for everyone. The heart of the matter is that the insurance companies have got to go, but we're never going to get other traditional conservatives on board with that if we don't engage in a real dialogue and build up trust.
----
Permanent tax breaks to corporations with temporary to non-corporations is a polarizing misdirection. People comprise corporations and cutting corporate taxes means that more of that money is available for normal people who've earned it to use and deploy, rather than for the government to appropriate and reserve for the purposes of a handful of unmovable bureaucrats. Most conservatives consider this a default good.
The permanent nature of the corporate tax cut is not an insult unless you choose to make it one. Every dollar of corporate tax does not have to be replaced by a dollar of individual tax; the goal is to pay less tax, not just to shift it around.
If the the corporate tax rate was too high, it should be brought down, regardless of the implementation details on the individual tax side. The overall goal is to keep direct taxes minimized in general.
How does this help the average citizen? First, there is individual tax relief already baked in for at least 8 years. That's an immediate tax savings and that's great. Second, allowing resources to flow to the people who are capable of commanding them from the marketplace allows these people to expand their operations, hire others, develop new technology and goods, etc. etc. -- all the basics of our economy. And perhaps the key difference is that conservatives see themselves not just as potential indirect beneficiaries from a prosperous and competitive marketplace, but direct beneficiaries as shareholders (i.e., anyone with a 401k or retirement account), entrepreneurs (supposedly many people on HN), and full market participants. They don't see it as zero-sum, where one person's prosperity is their poverty.
That sentiment, that access to the marketplace is unequal and that corporate tax savings do not benefit individuals, may be a good perspective or vein to hit on re: unspinning a polarized atmosphere. I think it has been taken to extremes on both ends, with liberal-leaning persons seeing corporations as vicious vampires and conservative-leaning persons seeing them as infallible bastions of righteousness. We have to get back to the middle, where we can help wipe the biases off each other's windows and see things clearly.
----
Net neutrality is an example of polarization run amok, because I think that there would be a lot more bipartisan support for a real solution if there wasn't a sentiment that agreeing with "the other side" was an automatic stain. Some conservatives understand the issue and oppose net neutrality for idealistic or technical reasons, but I think that most people who aren't simply repeating a party line know that something is broken and needs fixed one way or the other, whether they agree with the technical implementation under Title II or not.
To claim that this year's net neutrality repeal will have a significant immediate effect, positive or negative, is reaching, IMO. To the extent that telcos feel emboldened by the FCC's ruling, they will move ahead conservatively, because they know the backlash is dangerous. I don't expect to see any substantial user-facing changes any time in the next five years, and rather just expect the telcos to go back to using their ability to prioritize traffic as a bargaining chip with big tech companies, who are consuming a lot more bandwidth than would be feasible under a metered billing model.
Title II is a large regulatory burden, and rules like net neutrality are concerning because while they may stop Comcast from acting as scummy as humanly possible, they can also be wielded to quash small local ISPs (which, on more than one occasion, have been the only way I've been able to get decent internet access due to collisions of incompetence on the part of property owners and telcos) or emerging networks that are sufficient for lightweight transmission, and try to implement useful packet prioritization to stop whales from hogging all of the network's bandwidth.
Conservatives also hold minimal regulation as a principle, not because they want to hurt anyone whom a regulation may help, but because they've seen the other side of the coin, where big companies hijack well-intentioned programs or laws to quash competitors, technical advancements, and so forth.
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These are subjective perspectives informed by individual life experiences, and it's necessarily colored by our private biases, and that's exactly why we need each other. We need to keep each other honest, assuming good faith, and helping one another see where something is going too far afield. This can't be done under the default pretense or assumption that the other person is inherently wrong, evil, disingenuous, stupid, or deserving of punishment. That baseline self-awareness that we all need tempering, and that baseline respect for others that allows us to accept it, must be restored.
Most of the time, people on either side of the aisle are not going to end up fully agreeing with each other, and that's the whole point. We have to be able to disagree and accept compromises without impugning the character of the other.
On the grand scheme of things, it's only a small handful of people who are actively malicious, and the best gift we give them is taking their bait and bitterly bickering over intractable issues derived from personal background and context, instead of working to foster collaboration and compromise, grateful for the benefits of healthy and diverse civil discourse.
The polarized atmosphere allows manipulators to go hog wild, whether they're cold bureaucrats or greedy industrialists, because there are bad guys in both camps (in fact, these guys usually end up teaming up against the masses). We have to stop wasting rage on other people of goodwill while the true exploiters make off with the jewels.
At this rate, we won't realize what's happened until everything valuable is gone and the building is a smoldering ash heap.
----
Health care repeal: Insurance premiums have skyrocketed since the ACA went into effect. Just this year, I know a small business owner whose premium for high-deductible family plan has gone up 2.5x. My employer-provided health insurance premium increased a little (relatively at least), but both the individual and family deductibles jumped by about 40%.
Repealing the ACA doesn't include artificial price controls, etc., but the common belief is that the ACA is one of the biggest reasons that premiums have gone up, and that repealing it will allow them to come back down.
I understand that the causal relationship is arguable, but you asked for a perspective on how it helps the average person. The perspective is that the average person who isn't getting subsidized health insurance is getting raked over the coals (along with their employer, who usually pays 60-80% of the monthly premium), and that perspective is absolutely reflected in the real world where people are being forced to pay thousands more for less than they had last year.
"Without a replacement" isn't considered a big issue because it's not like repealing the ACA shuts down the medical facilities/industry in any real way. They'll continue to operate and health care will still be available. Everyone is not going to die because the medical system reverts to the regulatory structure that was in place five years ago. The insurance situation will get better for some and worse for others, but that's at worst a lateral movement, and it's arguably a positive because it allows people to forgo health insurance altogether again, which means the insurers will have to offer something for the "Well I'm not even going to bother" crowd.
This is another situation where polarization has caused us to miss the forest for the trees. The medical-industrial complex in this country is completely out of control. Completely. Everyone knows this. We need an elegant solution (and most conservatives don't consider a blank check from the government elegant), but we're not going to get one with each group playing off of each other and their politicians just toggling the situation in favor of their base every 4-8 years.
We have to hold our politicians accountable and demand something that is workable and stable for everyone. The heart of the matter is that the insurance companies have got to go, but we're never going to get other traditional conservatives on board with that if we don't engage in a real dialogue and build up trust.
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Permanent tax breaks to corporations with temporary to non-corporations is a polarizing misdirection. People comprise corporations and cutting corporate taxes means that more of that money is available for normal people who've earned it to use and deploy, rather than for the government to appropriate and reserve for the purposes of a handful of unmovable bureaucrats. Most conservatives consider this a default good.
The permanent nature of the corporate tax cut is not an insult unless you choose to make it one. Every dollar of corporate tax does not have to be replaced by a dollar of individual tax; the goal is to pay less tax, not just to shift it around.
If the the corporate tax rate was too high, it should be brought down, regardless of the implementation details on the individual tax side. The overall goal is to keep direct taxes minimized in general.
How does this help the average citizen? First, there is individual tax relief already baked in for at least 8 years. That's an immediate tax savings and that's great. Second, allowing resources to flow to the people who are capable of commanding them from the marketplace allows these people to expand their operations, hire others, develop new technology and goods, etc. etc. -- all the basics of our economy. And perhaps the key difference is that conservatives see themselves not just as potential indirect beneficiaries from a prosperous and competitive marketplace, but direct beneficiaries as shareholders (i.e., anyone with a 401k or retirement account), entrepreneurs (supposedly many people on HN), and full market participants. They don't see it as zero-sum, where one person's prosperity is their poverty.
That sentiment, that access to the marketplace is unequal and that corporate tax savings do not benefit individuals, may be a good perspective or vein to hit on re: unspinning a polarized atmosphere. I think it has been taken to extremes on both ends, with liberal-leaning persons seeing corporations as vicious vampires and conservative-leaning persons seeing them as infallible bastions of righteousness. We have to get back to the middle, where we can help wipe the biases off each other's windows and see things clearly.
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Net neutrality is an example of polarization run amok, because I think that there would be a lot more bipartisan support for a real solution if there wasn't a sentiment that agreeing with "the other side" was an automatic stain. Some conservatives understand the issue and oppose net neutrality for idealistic or technical reasons, but I think that most people who aren't simply repeating a party line know that something is broken and needs fixed one way or the other, whether they agree with the technical implementation under Title II or not.
To claim that this year's net neutrality repeal will have a significant immediate effect, positive or negative, is reaching, IMO. To the extent that telcos feel emboldened by the FCC's ruling, they will move ahead conservatively, because they know the backlash is dangerous. I don't expect to see any substantial user-facing changes any time in the next five years, and rather just expect the telcos to go back to using their ability to prioritize traffic as a bargaining chip with big tech companies, who are consuming a lot more bandwidth than would be feasible under a metered billing model.
Title II is a large regulatory burden, and rules like net neutrality are concerning because while they may stop Comcast from acting as scummy as humanly possible, they can also be wielded to quash small local ISPs (which, on more than one occasion, have been the only way I've been able to get decent internet access due to collisions of incompetence on the part of property owners and telcos) or emerging networks that are sufficient for lightweight transmission, and try to implement useful packet prioritization to stop whales from hogging all of the network's bandwidth.
Conservatives also hold minimal regulation as a principle, not because they want to hurt anyone whom a regulation may help, but because they've seen the other side of the coin, where big companies hijack well-intentioned programs or laws to quash competitors, technical advancements, and so forth.
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These are subjective perspectives informed by individual life experiences, and it's necessarily colored by our private biases, and that's exactly why we need each other. We need to keep each other honest, assuming good faith, and helping one another see where something is going too far afield. This can't be done under the default pretense or assumption that the other person is inherently wrong, evil, disingenuous, stupid, or deserving of punishment. That baseline self-awareness that we all need tempering, and that baseline respect for others that allows us to accept it, must be restored.
Most of the time, people on either side of the aisle are not going to end up fully agreeing with each other, and that's the whole point. We have to be able to disagree and accept compromises without impugning the character of the other.
On the grand scheme of things, it's only a small handful of people who are actively malicious, and the best gift we give them is taking their bait and bitterly bickering over intractable issues derived from personal background and context, instead of working to foster collaboration and compromise, grateful for the benefits of healthy and diverse civil discourse.
The polarized atmosphere allows manipulators to go hog wild, whether they're cold bureaucrats or greedy industrialists, because there are bad guys in both camps (in fact, these guys usually end up teaming up against the masses). We have to stop wasting rage on other people of goodwill while the true exploiters make off with the jewels.
At this rate, we won't realize what's happened until everything valuable is gone and the building is a smoldering ash heap.
>""Without a replacement" isn't considered a big issue because it's not like repealing the ACA shuts down the medical facilities/industry in any real way"
No, taking important things like health care away from people and not presenting any kind of a replacement is a huge deal.
>"Net neutrality is an example of polarization run amok, because I think that there would be a lot more bipartisan support for a real solution if there wasn't a sentiment that agreeing with "the other side" was an automatic stain."
Again all you can do is reframe reality into people being led astray by cable news pundits. Do you believe the majority of the population in the US are dummies? Where was the solution that was posited? Oh wait, there was none. Another subtractive, zero sum motion.
>"These are subjective perspectives informed by individual life experiences, and it's necessarily colored by our private biases,"
Again with the "there's no real issue here" - this is just people being led astray by the political media. Plenty of people with good critical thinking skills believe that their governments are representing moneyed interests ahead of them. I find your whole reductionist view that this is all just a big misunderstanding brought on by biased news media to be not only insulting but dangerous.
Again, this isn't about "left vs right" or "blue vs red" its about governments that prioritize the will of moneyed interests over people. The "other side" that people are worried about isn't a democrat or a republican the "other side" is a government that is not acting in their citizen best interests.
No, taking important things like health care away from people and not presenting any kind of a replacement is a huge deal.
>"Net neutrality is an example of polarization run amok, because I think that there would be a lot more bipartisan support for a real solution if there wasn't a sentiment that agreeing with "the other side" was an automatic stain."
Again all you can do is reframe reality into people being led astray by cable news pundits. Do you believe the majority of the population in the US are dummies? Where was the solution that was posited? Oh wait, there was none. Another subtractive, zero sum motion.
>"These are subjective perspectives informed by individual life experiences, and it's necessarily colored by our private biases,"
Again with the "there's no real issue here" - this is just people being led astray by the political media. Plenty of people with good critical thinking skills believe that their governments are representing moneyed interests ahead of them. I find your whole reductionist view that this is all just a big misunderstanding brought on by biased news media to be not only insulting but dangerous.
Again, this isn't about "left vs right" or "blue vs red" its about governments that prioritize the will of moneyed interests over people. The "other side" that people are worried about isn't a democrat or a republican the "other side" is a government that is not acting in their citizen best interests.
Equating a change in insurance benefits and costs based on changes to the ACA with "taking ... health care away from people" is simultaneously dramatizing the negative effect of the policy you dislike and minimizing the effect of the policy you prefer. As above, there are a lot of people whose "health care is being taken away", to use your terminology for "undesired fluctuations in insurance benefits and costs, including being completely priced out of their former policy", with the ACA in place. In reality, people are rarely rendered unable to access important health care services regardless of their insurance status.
Referring to "the citizen's best interest" is a tautology; political dialogue fundamentally arises from differing perspectives on how those interests are best served. In a free country, political discourse and representative government is the process by which "the citizen's best interest" is determined.
But I want to avoid the nitpicks. The issue is that when we hear coherent, valid perspectives that don't align with our own, we feel "not only insulted, but [endangered]". That's the sentiment we have to get away from.
I feel like I spent a pretty good amount of effort fulfilling your request. I presented reasonable perspectives that describe how the policies you mentioned can be interpreted to benefit the average citizen. That doesn't prove they're perfect or that they have no downsides, and it definitely doesn't mean that you'll agree. But as a society, we need to be able to engage in this dialogue without name-calling, threatening, or berating -- without condescension -- if we want to be able to stay stable and unified.
This is obviously not a simple task. What things could help us improve the mutual toleration and respect for actually-different POVs and the people who hold them? How can we refrain from hyperbolizing issues (e.g., pretending that a change to the current insurance regulations will leave scores dying in the streets, or conversely the confiscation of private medical facilities and destruction of all private medical industry) and present them in a way that allows each other to acknowledge the middle ground and agree to disagree?
Referring to "the citizen's best interest" is a tautology; political dialogue fundamentally arises from differing perspectives on how those interests are best served. In a free country, political discourse and representative government is the process by which "the citizen's best interest" is determined.
But I want to avoid the nitpicks. The issue is that when we hear coherent, valid perspectives that don't align with our own, we feel "not only insulted, but [endangered]". That's the sentiment we have to get away from.
I feel like I spent a pretty good amount of effort fulfilling your request. I presented reasonable perspectives that describe how the policies you mentioned can be interpreted to benefit the average citizen. That doesn't prove they're perfect or that they have no downsides, and it definitely doesn't mean that you'll agree. But as a society, we need to be able to engage in this dialogue without name-calling, threatening, or berating -- without condescension -- if we want to be able to stay stable and unified.
This is obviously not a simple task. What things could help us improve the mutual toleration and respect for actually-different POVs and the people who hold them? How can we refrain from hyperbolizing issues (e.g., pretending that a change to the current insurance regulations will leave scores dying in the streets, or conversely the confiscation of private medical facilities and destruction of all private medical industry) and present them in a way that allows each other to acknowledge the middle ground and agree to disagree?
>"I feel like I spent a pretty good amount of effort fulfilling your request."
No you haven't and that's the amazing part. You have spent hundreds of words contending a position that I never posited in the firs place. I have repeatedly states it wasn't about partisan politics but it was an issue with a system that increasingly only works for moneyed interests. It doesn't matter whether that money is from the left or for the right.
Yet for all of your talk about understanding and respect and toleration you have chosen to completely ignore my original and repeated premise. The irony is incredible.
No you haven't and that's the amazing part. You have spent hundreds of words contending a position that I never posited in the firs place. I have repeatedly states it wasn't about partisan politics but it was an issue with a system that increasingly only works for moneyed interests. It doesn't matter whether that money is from the left or for the right.
Yet for all of your talk about understanding and respect and toleration you have chosen to completely ignore my original and repeated premise. The irony is incredible.
[deleted]
"Patient protection and affordable care act"
"Patriot act"
All "right to work" laws
"Patriot act"
All "right to work" laws
How can we fight against these patterns? Amendments? Force bills to be broken up? Only allow a bill to be submitted once a decade?
Our system is definitely broken, but I have no idea what type of changes might prevent these abuses
Our system is definitely broken, but I have no idea what type of changes might prevent these abuses
Robert's Rules of Order (the Cadillac of parliamentary procedure texts) contains a few simple rules concerning this issue.
Simply put, no person may add content to a proposal that is not directly related to the original proposal. You want to add a rider to an HHS funding bill to also fund your pet project? Too bad. You want to include language in a standard farm bill about the second amendment? Not gonna happen.
Under these rules, proposals/bills are forced into MUCH smaller packages and the ability of any particular legislator to sneak in lobbied language becomes stymied.
Congress does not have these simple rules in place. We should force them to adopt the relevant section(s) of Robert's Rules of Order.
Simply put, no person may add content to a proposal that is not directly related to the original proposal. You want to add a rider to an HHS funding bill to also fund your pet project? Too bad. You want to include language in a standard farm bill about the second amendment? Not gonna happen.
Under these rules, proposals/bills are forced into MUCH smaller packages and the ability of any particular legislator to sneak in lobbied language becomes stymied.
Congress does not have these simple rules in place. We should force them to adopt the relevant section(s) of Robert's Rules of Order.
>How can we fight against these patterns?
Elect enough people willing to self-regulate and pass those bills. The current climate with lobbying money won't ever pass something like that.
Elect enough people willing to self-regulate and pass those bills. The current climate with lobbying money won't ever pass something like that.
What do lobbyists have to do with the NSA?
It wasn't a comment about lobbying for NSA expansion specifically, but I imagine there's plenty of companies who would benefit from NSA expansion that provide services to the US government.
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> I have no idea what type of changes might prevent these abuses
As long as a human or group of humans is capable of removing choices for others, there is will be no possible idea of how to prevent the abuse.
As long as a human or group of humans is capable of removing choices for others, there is will be no possible idea of how to prevent the abuse.
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This is why I believe all bills should have to state who the authors of the bill where, even if they just fixed an incorrect punctuation or spelling error. We actual do not know who writes the legislation, only who brings it to the table.
There is no real cost to keep on trying. It's like a forum without moderation.
"The most ominous danger we face does not come from the eradication of free speech through the obliteration of net neutrality or through Google algorithms that steer people away from dissident, left-wing, progressive or anti-war sites. It does not come from a tax bill that abandons all pretense of fiscal responsibility to enrich corporations and oligarchs and prepares the way to dismantle programs such as Social Security. It does not come from the opening of public land to the mining and fossil fuel industry, the acceleration of ecocide by demolishing environmental regulations, or the destruction of public education. It does not come from the squandering of federal dollars on a bloated military as the country collapses or the use of the systems of domestic security to criminalize dissent. The most ominous danger we face comes from the marginalization and destruction of institutions, including the courts, academia, legislative bodies, cultural organizations and the press, that once ensured that civil discourse was rooted in reality and fact, helped us distinguish lies from truth and facilitated justice."
The Permanent Lie, Our Deadliest Threat https://www.truthdig.com/articles/permanent-lie-deadliest-th...
This seems to me a good and complete answer as to why everything seems so hard. It's because everything that occurring is based on the "permanent" lie. The powers that be, be the deep state or whatever, cannot acknowledge facts or reality because it will loose its power. The sad part is that I think we also live in our own permanent lie in order not to see the homeless on the sidewalk, acknowledge the cow/chicken/etc raised in factory farming, the use of tax dollars to overthrow governments and kill untold number of people around the world, etc. Lots of issues that I think we need to tackle personally if we want society to do it too.
So what is your permanent lie?
The Permanent Lie, Our Deadliest Threat https://www.truthdig.com/articles/permanent-lie-deadliest-th...
This seems to me a good and complete answer as to why everything seems so hard. It's because everything that occurring is based on the "permanent" lie. The powers that be, be the deep state or whatever, cannot acknowledge facts or reality because it will loose its power. The sad part is that I think we also live in our own permanent lie in order not to see the homeless on the sidewalk, acknowledge the cow/chicken/etc raised in factory farming, the use of tax dollars to overthrow governments and kill untold number of people around the world, etc. Lots of issues that I think we need to tackle personally if we want society to do it too.
So what is your permanent lie?
An antidote to fatigue is automation!
I'd be happy to give EFF posting ability for this issue on my social media accounts. And I'd be fine with them using my voice and signature to generate voicemails and letters to my elected officials. if they abuse that power (which I doubt they would) I bet they'd be much more responsive to "their constituents" and also social media at least it's easy enough to de-auth integrations.
I'd be happy to give EFF posting ability for this issue on my social media accounts. And I'd be fine with them using my voice and signature to generate voicemails and letters to my elected officials. if they abuse that power (which I doubt they would) I bet they'd be much more responsive to "their constituents" and also social media at least it's easy enough to de-auth integrations.
I think this is the core of a very interesting idea.
expanding...
- call it Automated, Permissioned Grassroots Campaigning
- Users permit designated Orgs to post on their behalf on social media and other online forums
- Users guide priorities & tone of posts
- ML for content generation
- Aided by collaborative computer-human workflowsimilar idea is https://www.thunderclap.it/howitworks
Just to be clear, you _are_ talking about opinion biasing pools here, just on the side of the good guys?
I'd quibble with 'biasing', more like reporting. The bright line between this kind of delegation and FCC-style comment-bots is that each communication still only represents the will of one individual human. Just that they don't have to manually act each time, as they've already made their position clear.
Really it's just about changing EFF's emails from "Act now!" to "We're about to do this on your behalf! (opt out if you want)."
Really it's just about changing EFF's emails from "Act now!" to "We're about to do this on your behalf! (opt out if you want)."
Add a pinch of Blockchain for funding
So completely fatigued. It is exhausting keeping up with everything, and on top of that, many issues are truly important, not merely in the realm of political junkie. What's depressing is that so much of what's going on right now feels like a waste of time; provide the means by which I can stay healthy and safe, and I'd much prefer to be thinking about a totally different set of policies.
The next time you are working, totally in the zone, or in a research meeting talking about fascinating new technology, or really doing anything of substance, just stop. And think about the fragile shit happening with policy changes and tweets. what. the. fuck.
The next time you are working, totally in the zone, or in a research meeting talking about fascinating new technology, or really doing anything of substance, just stop. And think about the fragile shit happening with policy changes and tweets. what. the. fuck.
Stephen Frye did a nature series a few years ago called "last chance to see" in which he expressed the notion that environmentalists are so dismayed and tired that they are ready to give up and accept the future. I'm starting to feel that way about US democracy. I used to work in the US (lawyer) but have returned to Canada. I feel like I am sitting on a hill watching Rome burn. Why bother trying to help when the Romans are setting fire to their own houses?
As much as Canada’s own legislation is shaped by US events, I hope you don’t sit on that hill long- you should be offline gathering metaphorical water buckets.
Or we wait until it is in rubble, until the Romans realize what they have done to themselves, and then document the destruction so that nobody forgets the mistakes. That's what I think Disney just did. That Trump robot will be terrorizing people for generations to come.
I am fatigued constantly fighting for NN, Healthcare, Women's choice, environment etc. Don't have any energy left to fight for privacy. I suspect this is by design.
The greatest ruse ever perpetrated on the American people was that we stand divided from one another and our own self interests based on ideological lines; articulated by ego-driven flesh puppets, vote for your favorite color like a 4 year old posed with the same inquiry. "What's your favorite color?" Bleh, we need real representation, real discussion of building the real utilitarian future. I think a good start would be choice between real representatives acting on behalf of more than one side of the same bloody coin. In short, liberal lovey-dovey pussies like me and knuckle-dragging conservatards agree, this mother fucker needs to burn.
Yes. I give to the EFF and a few other select causes each year, but I just can't keep up with individual issues. I just plan on waiting it out for the next 4 years.
I just plan on waiting it out for the next 4 years.
You're not thinking that if the Democrats manage to take the White House, that this situation will improve - are you? I mean, most of this damage was done when Pres. Obama was in the White House and the Congress skewed more toward Democrats. The idea that the Democrats will defend our privacy and 4th Amendment is absurd.
You're not thinking that if the Democrats manage to take the White House, that this situation will improve - are you? I mean, most of this damage was done when Pres. Obama was in the White House and the Congress skewed more toward Democrats. The idea that the Democrats will defend our privacy and 4th Amendment is absurd.
Obama expanded the program, yes. He did not create it. And also, many other groups I donate to are just swamping me with non-NSA stuff related to Trump and the GOP, so that's also what I meant.
But still, yes, I feel democrats have a better chance of at least listening to constituent concerns about privacy. The GOP wallies about small government, except for the military and they view the NSA/FBI/CIA as the same.
But even if not--I don't see it improving with another R in power either. Or do you?
But still, yes, I feel democrats have a better chance of at least listening to constituent concerns about privacy. The GOP wallies about small government, except for the military and they view the NSA/FBI/CIA as the same.
But even if not--I don't see it improving with another R in power either. Or do you?
I think this misrepresents the split.
Trump's views on privacy are obvious and awful, yes - he has Sessions as AG.
But Dianne Feinstein is one of the fiercest surveillance advocates in Congress. Hillary Clinton had vastly more support from intelligence agencies than Trump did, and refused to condemn what was described in the Snowden releases.
Meanwhile, Rand Paul ended bulk phone record collection for a few hours in 2015, defying much of both parties to do so. He filibustered over drone strikes, and promised to restrict NSA searches if he was elected.
There's a lot to dislike about Rand Paul, and libertarians aren't the only people opposing surveillance - Bernie Sanders made similar promises from the far opposite end of the spectrum.
But I think framing this as "bad under Democrats, hopeless under Republicans" makes it harder to address the problem. The mainstream of both parties are similarly awful, even if the Democrats talk a bit more softly about it, while the fringes of both parties are often strong surveillance opponents.
Trump's views on privacy are obvious and awful, yes - he has Sessions as AG.
But Dianne Feinstein is one of the fiercest surveillance advocates in Congress. Hillary Clinton had vastly more support from intelligence agencies than Trump did, and refused to condemn what was described in the Snowden releases.
Meanwhile, Rand Paul ended bulk phone record collection for a few hours in 2015, defying much of both parties to do so. He filibustered over drone strikes, and promised to restrict NSA searches if he was elected.
There's a lot to dislike about Rand Paul, and libertarians aren't the only people opposing surveillance - Bernie Sanders made similar promises from the far opposite end of the spectrum.
But I think framing this as "bad under Democrats, hopeless under Republicans" makes it harder to address the problem. The mainstream of both parties are similarly awful, even if the Democrats talk a bit more softly about it, while the fringes of both parties are often strong surveillance opponents.
> Rand Paul ... Bernie Sanders made similar promises from the far opposite end of the spectrum.
Referring to Libertarian and left-libertarian as opposite ends of the spectrum is a grave disservice, and feeds directly into our contemporary fallacious polarization.
Either view it as a two-dimensional circle, or just ignore the secondary "Left"-"Right" marketing and analyze the primary characteristic of libertarian-authoritarian.
Referring to Libertarian and left-libertarian as opposite ends of the spectrum is a grave disservice, and feeds directly into our contemporary fallacious polarization.
Either view it as a two-dimensional circle, or just ignore the secondary "Left"-"Right" marketing and analyze the primary characteristic of libertarian-authoritarian.
I chose 'spectrum' since the comment I was referring to was starting from a "which party" question - the spectrum I was envisioning was "fringe to mainstream" within a given party.
I certainly agree that framing political beliefs themselves as linear is misleading, though. I should have been clearer about that.
I certainly agree that framing political beliefs themselves as linear is misleading, though. I should have been clearer about that.
This is a false dichotomy which is enabling to the surveillance state.
When was the last time a 3rd party candidate won?
I'm tired and bitter, but: there's no rule saying good outcomes are possible.
It's entirely possible to say "this is a false dichotomy, both parties are fundamentally hopeless on this issue" and also say "third party candidates are completely unelectable".
I'm not entirely fatalistic; I think "a major party greatly realigns its views on privacy" is possible, if hard and unlikely. I mentioned Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders as contrarian voices each pulling their party away from bulk surveillance, and I hope we'll see more such voices in the future. A realignment looks increasingly possible, and increasingly necessary. But I honestly don't think "third parties are powerless" should be seen as a reason to have any hope at all for our existing options.
It's entirely possible to say "this is a false dichotomy, both parties are fundamentally hopeless on this issue" and also say "third party candidates are completely unelectable".
I'm not entirely fatalistic; I think "a major party greatly realigns its views on privacy" is possible, if hard and unlikely. I mentioned Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders as contrarian voices each pulling their party away from bulk surveillance, and I hope we'll see more such voices in the future. A realignment looks increasingly possible, and increasingly necessary. But I honestly don't think "third parties are powerless" should be seen as a reason to have any hope at all for our existing options.
Why does that matter? There's a lot of distrust for both parties, from both sides at the moment. That seems like a good time for a 3rd party to come on in.
Exactly. Three letter agency abilities were expanded hugely under Obama. Why people can’t grasp this, I’ll never know.
> Exactly. Three letter agency abilities were expanded hugely under Obama. Why people can’t grasp this, I’ll never know.
Partisanship is one hell of a drug.
Partisanship is one hell of a drug.
The boat was built and set sail under Bush and the GOP congress, under the super-Orwellian PATRIOT Act. I am not happy Obama expanded their powers but fail to see how the GOP would make the situation better.
The boat has been under construction for decades. The FISA courts were set up in 1978 (that's the Democrat Carter, and I believe that it was Democratic Congress at the time, too), but even that was only a response, trying to rein in the national surveillance apparatus that was already running wild. Reagan upped it a notch with Exec Order 12333, GWB obviously built on top of that, and Obama went hog-wild with it. There's plenty of blame to drown both parties.
> Three letter agency abilities were expanded
As well as politicized and weaponized.
As well as politicized and weaponized.
That's what you hire lobbyists for and pay them. They will just keep working on it until they get it done. As citizen you can't sustain the effort to fight them, so eventually they will get their way.
Tough times in the US; too many attacks on rights and liberties at once. I feel for you.
You need to work on the deeper roots of the problem. Campaign finance in Congress is the big one. It blocks common sense reform on the left and the right.
Every elected official is your enemy, ever was, ever will.
They are meant to do that, but corporations pay better.
They count on our fatigue and ignorance.
Is there plan to bombard the american public on so many fronts that they accept mass surveillance? What the actual fuck is wrong with this country.
Reminds me of when MSNBC cut off NSA criticism with "breaking news" about Justin Bieber
https://youtu.be/GH68bSJXGE8
https://youtu.be/GH68bSJXGE8
I didn't realize everything wrong with the world today could be summarized in such a short video.
And FISA reauthorization always happens a few days before Christmas.
Californians, remember to vote Feinstein out in the Democratic primary. She's been one of the main champions of this bill and type of mass surveillance (as well as the anti-encryption bills, which she's not giving up).
It's probably one of the reasons why she decided to go back on her promise not to run again, so she can pass it once more in a few years. Her husband also makes big bucks from the defense industry and from government contracts - probably not a coincidence at all. She's one of the richest Congress people - again, likely not a coincidence.
Californians, remember to vote Feinstein out in the Democratic primary. She's been one of the main champions of this bill and type of mass surveillance (as well as the anti-encryption bills, which she's not giving up).
It's probably one of the reasons why she decided to go back on her promise not to run again, so she can pass it once more in a few years. Her husband also makes big bucks from the defense industry and from government contracts - probably not a coincidence at all. She's one of the richest Congress people - again, likely not a coincidence.
> Californians, remember to vote Feinstein out in the Democratic primary. She's been one of the main champions of this bill and type of mass surveillance (as well as the anti-encryption bills, which she's not giving up).
Senate Minority Leader Schumer has been the other main proponent. Unfortunately, New York is not really a democracy, so there is no way for us to get rid of him.
Senate Minority Leader Schumer has been the other main proponent. Unfortunately, New York is not really a democracy, so there is no way for us to get rid of him.
Schumer is awful on a lot of levels, but I don't seem him losing his office unless he goes the way Sheldon Silver did.
> Schumer is awful on a lot of levels, but I don't seem him losing his office unless he goes the way Sheldon Silver did.
Agreed. New York politicians can get away with attempted murder caught on videotape (literally) and there's still no chance that they'll lose re-election, thanks to the array of arcane election laws that, in practice, collectively disenfranchise New York voters.
Agreed. New York politicians can get away with attempted murder caught on videotape (literally) and there's still no chance that they'll lose re-election, thanks to the array of arcane election laws that, in practice, collectively disenfranchise New York voters.
If you're not a resident of California, you can still "vote" by sending campaign contributions to her opponents.
I figure [without much supporting evidence or data] that one vote equals $50, so you can "vote" as much as you want, quite cheaply.
I figure [without much supporting evidence or data] that one vote equals $50, so you can "vote" as much as you want, quite cheaply.
There isn't a Democratic primary in California, their system is ridiculous. All candidates are in the primary, the top two are on the ballot. Last election had two Democrats against each other, one of them got 19% of the primary vote. Getting Feinstein off the ballot is nearly impossible.
What's ridiculous about that system. It sounds refreshing to have an electoral process not structured around political parties.
And why does this system make it harder to get Feinstein off the ballot?
And why does this system make it harder to get Feinstein off the ballot?
"Not structured around political parties" amounts to "only one party." Given California's Democrat majority, and the type of people that vote in primaries, the system removes any chance of a third party candidate and requires the Republican's candidate to be a consensus choice before the primary vote.
In a Democrat primary, Feinstein getting 49% of the vote could end with her removed from the ballot. In this system, 20% could see her on the ballot.
In a Democrat primary, Feinstein getting 49% of the vote could end with her removed from the ballot. In this system, 20% could see her on the ballot.
With their revealed preferences, people have signaled that they want convenience more than privacy.
Really, surveillance barely even seems necessary any more. People already voluntarily tell Facebook, Uber, Instagram, Amazon and their credit cards companies every detail of their lives. I'm not even sure we can reasonably stop that.
The issue to me isn't so much people gathering data, because it's obvious that will happen. Rather we need restrictions on how that data can be stored, shared, integrated across datasets, and mined.
Really, surveillance barely even seems necessary any more. People already voluntarily tell Facebook, Uber, Instagram, Amazon and their credit cards companies every detail of their lives. I'm not even sure we can reasonably stop that.
The issue to me isn't so much people gathering data, because it's obvious that will happen. Rather we need restrictions on how that data can be stored, shared, integrated across datasets, and mined.
I think it's more accurate to say, people have signaled that they understand the immediate benefits of convenience, but have trouble evaluating the harms of privacy loss. (At least, I know this is true for me.)
Cory Doctorow likened it to maintaining a diet. If see could see/feel the calories turning into fat instantly, it would be easier to avoid eating as much.
Something that startles me is the number of Telegram users who get openly angry when Telegram pushes a security or privacy update instead of an update with random new features.
It just blows my mind that there are people who actually exist -- a lot of them -- who want animated stickers that much more more than anything at all privacy or security related.
It just blows my mind that there are people who actually exist -- a lot of them -- who want animated stickers that much more more than anything at all privacy or security related.
That's exactly it. It's also pretty hilarious that the GOP is trying to extend the FBI's power and oversight - given the current situation with their dear leader.
Step 1: expand power - in progress.
Step 2: corrupt power - well it isn't like the FBI hasn't done that in the past.
Step 2: corrupt power - well it isn't like the FBI hasn't done that in the past.
"we ram a bill to expand your powers through, you ease up on the investigation".
Seeing how Comey (and top collaborators) basically ignored Hillary Clinton's obvious crimes WRT security, it does seem odd.
Maybe they're buying some agents of their own, to even things out.
Maybe they're buying some agents of their own, to even things out.
IMO the effort to fight NN should have been spent fighting this.
The end consumer will eventually see the costs of losing NN. The cost of losing privacy is not as obvious in the short-term.
The end consumer will eventually see the costs of losing NN. The cost of losing privacy is not as obvious in the short-term.
It seems like it. No one should ever be called a conspiracy nut these days.
"We only have hours"? What are we supposed to do in those hours? Make phone calls that won't get through? Tweet? Forget it. Senators and congressmen don't fear their constituents so they're not going to listen to their constituents.
Let me clarify. By "fear", I mean fear of losing their seats, not their heads. Clearly, they don't fear either but I'm only implying that government would work better if elected positions were easier to lose.
> It would also give FBI agents the power to decide whether or not to seek a warrant to read American communications collected under Section 702
Hoover would be so proud. This bill basically legitimizes the relentless surveillance apparatus of his era by allowing the FBI to use the NSA's haystack resources without a warrant.
Considering the way the FBI has acted in the last 100yr (big organizations can only change their operational culture so far so fast and government is particularly slow because the incentives discourage turnover), their mission and their jurisdiction I think this is very bad. There's no way this power can not be abused. Warrants are so trivially easy to get that the only reason to not get them for stuff like this is to do things that you can't justify asking for a warrant for.
Hoover would be so proud. This bill basically legitimizes the relentless surveillance apparatus of his era by allowing the FBI to use the NSA's haystack resources without a warrant.
Considering the way the FBI has acted in the last 100yr (big organizations can only change their operational culture so far so fast and government is particularly slow because the incentives discourage turnover), their mission and their jurisdiction I think this is very bad. There's no way this power can not be abused. Warrants are so trivially easy to get that the only reason to not get them for stuff like this is to do things that you can't justify asking for a warrant for.
I find it very interesting that this bill is being pushed by Devin Nunes. In case anyone here is unaware, he is involved in an ongoing surveillance-related controversy - he is one of the leaders alleging a scandal that HRC 2016 campaign paid Fusion GPS to produce the Steele Dossier as evidence for the FBI to wiretap Trump Tower using an Obama-appointed FISA court judge. [0]
I find the idea of him expanding the FISA court powers contradictory to his stated purpose of seeking justice in the matter of his supposed 2016 election scandal. Note that this idea is the EFF's interpretation of the bill & not my own view.
If that were the case, then perhaps his intent is to leverage the expanded NSA powers to spy on the FBI, which he seems to believe is working against the current administration. This would not be the first time different parts of the US government were spying on each other. [1]
I don't believe that is the intent of this bill. After reviewing, it seems more likely that the intent of the bill covers two goals: 1. To require added accountability to the FISA application process such that abuses of the FISA court are easier to identify. There are a number of sections in the bill which require disclosures by the FBI which were not necessary before. 2. To remove bureaucratic barriers limiting the Attorney General, who in the case of this political situation, will be relied upon to investigate the government itself.
So I can see where the EFF is coming from with their take on this bill, and certainly there is a political divide over whether or not this bill is a good thing.
Personally I am hoping it will pass.[2]
[0] http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/head-house-ethics...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/03/12...
[2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/4478...
I find the idea of him expanding the FISA court powers contradictory to his stated purpose of seeking justice in the matter of his supposed 2016 election scandal. Note that this idea is the EFF's interpretation of the bill & not my own view.
If that were the case, then perhaps his intent is to leverage the expanded NSA powers to spy on the FBI, which he seems to believe is working against the current administration. This would not be the first time different parts of the US government were spying on each other. [1]
I don't believe that is the intent of this bill. After reviewing, it seems more likely that the intent of the bill covers two goals: 1. To require added accountability to the FISA application process such that abuses of the FISA court are easier to identify. There are a number of sections in the bill which require disclosures by the FBI which were not necessary before. 2. To remove bureaucratic barriers limiting the Attorney General, who in the case of this political situation, will be relied upon to investigate the government itself.
So I can see where the EFF is coming from with their take on this bill, and certainly there is a political divide over whether or not this bill is a good thing.
Personally I am hoping it will pass.[2]
[0] http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/head-house-ethics...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/03/12...
[2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/4478...
Is there anything states can do about this?
And, if this passes, is there any way to protect myself? Obviously if the NSA is hoarding zero-days there isn't much you can do, but what are some practical steps?
1) avoid airports and security cameras
2) use an offshore VPN at all times
3) don't use the phone, use E2E encrypted calling like Signal
4) use cash as often as possible, or cryptocurrency
Or does none of that matter?
And, if this passes, is there any way to protect myself? Obviously if the NSA is hoarding zero-days there isn't much you can do, but what are some practical steps?
1) avoid airports and security cameras
2) use an offshore VPN at all times
3) don't use the phone, use E2E encrypted calling like Signal
4) use cash as often as possible, or cryptocurrency
Or does none of that matter?
What's your threat model? Unless you name what you're afraid of and what you're trying to hide, you're just feeding paranoia and it's unhealthy. And I'm not trying to say you should do nothing - the steps you suggest would at the very least increase the cost for NSA to collect data, potentially making it scale less or even make you fly under the radar. Still, if you want those rather uncomfortable actions to become habits, you'll need to have some motivation and for that you probably need to name your worries first.
I have a deep moral opposition to this kind of spying, and making it more difficult is an end in and of itself. I also don't consider them terribly uncomfortable, but that is my opinion and no one else's.
I also personally would prefer not to be spied on. I do not want my day-to-day activities monitored by anyone but myself. In the event that the government starts curtailing freedoms or particular kinds of behavior and thought, I do not want to be left susceptible. So I guess my threat model is "generalized spying". I assume I would be powerless to stop anything specifically targeted at me, so I would like to avoid becoming a target in the first place.
If and when I start buying oxidizing chemicals, drug precursors, or ammunition, then you are more than welcome to start tracking my purchases and usage of those products.
I also personally would prefer not to be spied on. I do not want my day-to-day activities monitored by anyone but myself. In the event that the government starts curtailing freedoms or particular kinds of behavior and thought, I do not want to be left susceptible. So I guess my threat model is "generalized spying". I assume I would be powerless to stop anything specifically targeted at me, so I would like to avoid becoming a target in the first place.
If and when I start buying oxidizing chemicals, drug precursors, or ammunition, then you are more than welcome to start tracking my purchases and usage of those products.
>So I guess my threat model is "generalized spying"
In this case, you should be proactive not only against NSA, but GOOG, FB, your ISP etc.
You should look into Tails OS if you haven't already.
In this case, you should be proactive not only against NSA, but GOOG, FB, your ISP etc.
You should look into Tails OS if you haven't already.
Good point, and in fact I am.
My Instagram account is long gone, my Facebook account will be gone before the end of the month (I use it once a week at most anyway), and I've long since stopped using any Google account for anything. I run multiple browser extensions that help me delete cookies, block Javascript, etc. The VPN should hopefully take care of my ISP. It try to avoid even sending emails to Gmail accounts.
I haven't tried Tails, but I will look into it when I get some time free.
My Instagram account is long gone, my Facebook account will be gone before the end of the month (I use it once a week at most anyway), and I've long since stopped using any Google account for anything. I run multiple browser extensions that help me delete cookies, block Javascript, etc. The VPN should hopefully take care of my ISP. It try to avoid even sending emails to Gmail accounts.
I haven't tried Tails, but I will look into it when I get some time free.
Well it’s time to ask yourself, are those morals and values worth sacrificing your comfort, your sanity, and maybe even your life? Which do you value more?
Luckily I'm not sacrificing any of those things.
> afraid of
The government knowing literally everything about my life (yes, I know they almost certainly do already)
> what I'm trying to hide
More like what I'm trying to protect: the naive assumption that the government does not deserve to have this depth and breadth of information on literally every citizen for no legitimate reason.
The government knowing literally everything about my life (yes, I know they almost certainly do already)
> what I'm trying to hide
More like what I'm trying to protect: the naive assumption that the government does not deserve to have this depth and breadth of information on literally every citizen for no legitimate reason.
> Unless you name what you're afraid of and what you're trying to hide
I think of it a little differently. I am trying to be part of a collective movement toward as much privacy as possible so that those who do need to protect themselves can have access to the tools they need and won't stick out when they use them. A sort of herd immunity.
I guess a good start are habits that neutralize automated mass surveillance. Targeted surveillance would be a whole other ballgame and unfortunately I don't think our tools are at a place to make this feasible for me to practice.
I think of it a little differently. I am trying to be part of a collective movement toward as much privacy as possible so that those who do need to protect themselves can have access to the tools they need and won't stick out when they use them. A sort of herd immunity.
I guess a good start are habits that neutralize automated mass surveillance. Targeted surveillance would be a whole other ballgame and unfortunately I don't think our tools are at a place to make this feasible for me to practice.
>I am trying to be part of a collective movement toward as much privacy as possible so that those who do need to protect themselves can have access to the tools they need and won't stick out when they use them. A sort of herd immunity.
by creating a standard you are effectively creating an easy way and/or justification to automate against that standard. I think your logic is sound, but consider the big picture. The more people do things in a certain way, the higher the incentive to investigate that way.
by creating a standard you are effectively creating an easy way and/or justification to automate against that standard. I think your logic is sound, but consider the big picture. The more people do things in a certain way, the higher the incentive to investigate that way.
Sure, the principle doesn't always blindly work. If everyone uses one technology, that can be a single point of failure (one backdoor and we're all doomed). But think about https for example. It's just plain good for security and anonymity and everyone should use it as much as possible.
They don't need much more incentive to arrogate power; I don't think there is much hope in changing that calculus.
>Let us speak no more of faith in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of cryptography.
>Let us speak no more of faith in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of cryptography.
Just a reminder that most cryptocurrencies (esp Bitcoin) are inherently quite traceable. Cash is still king.
I would suggest to try Qubes OS:
https://qubes-os.org
https://qubes-os.org
might want to check if your potential offshore vpn is hosted in a country with an intelligence data sharing agreement with the united states or any of its intelligence partners
> 2) use an offshore VPN at all times
This would actually be far more likely to enable collection of your traffic, whereas US Persons cannot be queried.
This would actually be far more likely to enable collection of your traffic, whereas US Persons cannot be queried.
Is that so? What do you mean? This is the first time I've heard anyone say that.
Does anyone have a source? I can't find the story anywhere.
Edit: http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365718-house-set...
Edit: http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365718-house-set...
I don't want to be discouraging to anyone. Please, do anything you think will be helpful.
But the NSA's equipment is still in hundreds of network equipment rooms, and the data is being split off recorded and rifled at will. They'll tell you they're "not collecting" your data, but they are. They're just using some strange NSA version of English where siphoning your data and storing it on hard drives is not "collecting" it.
I advocate the peaceful destruction of their facility in Utah and any other similar facility.
But the NSA's equipment is still in hundreds of network equipment rooms, and the data is being split off recorded and rifled at will. They'll tell you they're "not collecting" your data, but they are. They're just using some strange NSA version of English where siphoning your data and storing it on hard drives is not "collecting" it.
I advocate the peaceful destruction of their facility in Utah and any other similar facility.
> I advocate the peaceful destruction of their facility in Utah...
How? Either voting doesn't work or we as a people are too collective stupid to vote for anyone different. How many like Reid, Fienstien and Hatch just keep getting elected despite their actions? Maybe we need some real people to run? Maybe we need to be smart enough to vote them in (and out when their time is up - I'm looking at you, Hatch).
A there letter agency doesn't just disappear because we complain to each other. It is going to take years to undo what is being done.
How? Either voting doesn't work or we as a people are too collective stupid to vote for anyone different. How many like Reid, Fienstien and Hatch just keep getting elected despite their actions? Maybe we need some real people to run? Maybe we need to be smart enough to vote them in (and out when their time is up - I'm looking at you, Hatch).
A there letter agency doesn't just disappear because we complain to each other. It is going to take years to undo what is being done.
I don't think the problem is that we're too stupid. It's just that first past the post voting inevitably results in Tweedledee vs. Tweedledum, both of whom support, e.g., continuing the drug war, expanding mass surveillance, etc.
Shut the water off. There won't be enough cooling for the servers.
Maybe shoot a hole in the bottom of a big, oil-filled transformer at the nearest power substation.
Maybe shoot a hole in the bottom of a big, oil-filled transformer at the nearest power substation.
This is at least the second post on this topic in which logfromblammo has suggested that people perform criminal acts. (S)he earlier suggested keying cars and cutting tires.
Those are simply wrong and criminal.
Those are simply wrong and criminal.
Certainly criminal. Wrong is an ethical judgment that is up to the individual.
"Tit-for-tat" strategy tends to beat "always cooperate" strategy in simplified social gaming models. People who always obey all laws, regardless of circumstances, are chumps who will inevitably be exploited by those who write the laws and those who selectively enforce them. In general, the law exists for the protection of everyone in society, but there exist exceptions when breaking the law is the right thing to do.
Peaceful, lawful protest is no longer protecting minority voter blocs. Continuing to do it in the expectation that it will eventually work is just as insane as implementing trickle-down economic policy for the Nth time and expecting that it will benefit the middle class this time, when it failed to do so the previous N-1 times.
"Tit-for-tat" strategy tends to beat "always cooperate" strategy in simplified social gaming models. People who always obey all laws, regardless of circumstances, are chumps who will inevitably be exploited by those who write the laws and those who selectively enforce them. In general, the law exists for the protection of everyone in society, but there exist exceptions when breaking the law is the right thing to do.
Peaceful, lawful protest is no longer protecting minority voter blocs. Continuing to do it in the expectation that it will eventually work is just as insane as implementing trickle-down economic policy for the Nth time and expecting that it will benefit the middle class this time, when it failed to do so the previous N-1 times.
I’m curious at what point civility breaks down in a failing state, at what level does his course of action make sense? I like to establish these limits before emotion can cloud judgement. He may be brash but he’s not wrong yet.
I don't think there ever is a discontinuity. It just slowly ramps up, such that the only ones who notice are the ones who just woke up from comas. Every line in the sand is crossed slowly, with shuffling feet, so the line is wiped out as it is approached. Watershed events that are a clear trigger or threshold are rare. Mostly, it just gets worse slowly enough that no one ever hits their limit and breaks.
That's how we got to 2017 from 1967, after all--one hour after another, without pause, for 50 years. And then one day, you think "WTF just happened? How did everything get so incredibly awesome and yet also completely awful at the same time?"
If you think, "Gee, I should have done Y way back when X happened," then you should probably be doing Y now, even long after X happened.
I think about how it must feel for ordinary people when important history is happening around them, and if they would have even noticed at the time. It probably feels a lot like a fish feels after biting down on the bait. Everything is fine and normal, then boom, something grabbed me and is pulling me and now the water is gone and some blobby hairy thing has its appendages stuck into my gills and I flop and squirm and flop some more and the water is still gone and everything's going dim and my mouth hurts and the blobby thing is cutting my belly open with its shiny claw and now I can't feel my body and a gull just ate my eye and is tugging at my guts and I can't even flop any more. And I... And it was all so fast... I want to go back...
At what point is it acceptable for the fish to start fighting? It has to start while it is still in the water, while it still can fight. But it doesn't yet know that it should. What do you do if the event that makes it perfectly clear that you should have been doing something all along is also the event that makes it impossible for you to do it? What if the event that would have retroactively justified your behavior never happens?
That's how we got to 2017 from 1967, after all--one hour after another, without pause, for 50 years. And then one day, you think "WTF just happened? How did everything get so incredibly awesome and yet also completely awful at the same time?"
If you think, "Gee, I should have done Y way back when X happened," then you should probably be doing Y now, even long after X happened.
I think about how it must feel for ordinary people when important history is happening around them, and if they would have even noticed at the time. It probably feels a lot like a fish feels after biting down on the bait. Everything is fine and normal, then boom, something grabbed me and is pulling me and now the water is gone and some blobby hairy thing has its appendages stuck into my gills and I flop and squirm and flop some more and the water is still gone and everything's going dim and my mouth hurts and the blobby thing is cutting my belly open with its shiny claw and now I can't feel my body and a gull just ate my eye and is tugging at my guts and I can't even flop any more. And I... And it was all so fast... I want to go back...
At what point is it acceptable for the fish to start fighting? It has to start while it is still in the water, while it still can fight. But it doesn't yet know that it should. What do you do if the event that makes it perfectly clear that you should have been doing something all along is also the event that makes it impossible for you to do it? What if the event that would have retroactively justified your behavior never happens?
Wrong and criminal aren't necessarily the same. If the NSA is out of control it is our right to shut it down (hopefully without violence).
How does one "peacefully destroy" one of the most heavily guarded military facilities that exists?
I live in Oregon, where I am pretty sure my representatives will oppose this bill (as they have a history of doing so). What I really want to do is voice my opinion to my old state of Pennsylvania, where I am less confident.
As more people move to where the jobs are at, the country will become more blue/red divided.
As more people move to where the jobs are at, the country will become more blue/red divided.
Wow I thought the only "bad" law that was passing was a big tax cut. Shame on me for paying attention to the news media. Good timing for NSA, though! Suspiciously good...
Bad tax reform that benefits mostly corporations and the 1% reported by foreign news outlets get flagged here, but talk about a spy group or internet regulation and suddenly politics is fair game.
I'm sick of the echo chamber and the pathetic rules of civility strangling human communication, the invisible voting down of opinions people don't like, the moderation filters that carve out a single world view catered to an angel investor's whims.
I guess I'll just read the New York Times. It's annoying and devoid of useful commentary but at least I'll get a complete news feed and not have to watch a sad oppressive ecosystem strangle intelligent debate.
I'm sick of the echo chamber and the pathetic rules of civility strangling human communication, the invisible voting down of opinions people don't like, the moderation filters that carve out a single world view catered to an angel investor's whims.
I guess I'll just read the New York Times. It's annoying and devoid of useful commentary but at least I'll get a complete news feed and not have to watch a sad oppressive ecosystem strangle intelligent debate.
Your last sentence kinda struck home for me.
3 years ago I was able to get news from reddit that was faster and sometimes more reliable than, say, CNN. It now takes hours for a relevant story to siphon to the top because of certain vested interests downvoting it.
It's made me miss CNN and NYT. I've started drifting back to conventional news outlets because bad actors destroyed the ones I loved.
3 years ago I was able to get news from reddit that was faster and sometimes more reliable than, say, CNN. It now takes hours for a relevant story to siphon to the top because of certain vested interests downvoting it.
It's made me miss CNN and NYT. I've started drifting back to conventional news outlets because bad actors destroyed the ones I loved.
HN isn't a generic news site. Nor is it a site for the discussion of all social topics. Many people are here because of that, but it appears that you want something different.
Well, one of those things has to do with technology, and the other one doesn't.
Non US citizens have been subject to warrantless surveillance by NSA etc for some time now. That was fine, apparently?
One might hope that the Trump administration is wary of widening the federal government's ability to spy on its citizens. I do.
I knew there was a reason the media decided to make a big deal about a military video from 2004 yesterday. Pure distraction.
And you will do nothing... as usually. You will just dream about having any influence on the world going on.
I'm not a US citizen, so my voice doesn't count. But does your voice count if you are a US citizen? Nope. The corporations and politicians decide, we can just be allowed to have nice sits in the front row and watch how the corporations world grow.
Happy watching. Tickets are expensive, and mandatory. Nice dreaming.
I'm not a US citizen, so my voice doesn't count. But does your voice count if you are a US citizen? Nope. The corporations and politicians decide, we can just be allowed to have nice sits in the front row and watch how the corporations world grow.
Happy watching. Tickets are expensive, and mandatory. Nice dreaming.
Is that why women and black people can vote, because what citizens think and their voices don't matter?
Is that why gay people can get married in the US (but not in 160 other countries), because what US citizens think doesn't count? (the majority in the US support gay marriage)
Is that why the house and US Senate recently voted almost perfectly in step, overwhelmingly in favor, of rolling back civil asset forfeiture abuses? Congress has nothing to fear from it, they do however know their voters are angry about it.
Is that why the Obama Admin put net neutrality into place, because votes & voices don't matter? It was in fact overwhelmingly demanded by Obama's voters. Votes, of course, matter in a big way as it turns out: had Hillary bothered to fight for the blue wall state voters, we'd still have net neutrality.
Is that why gay people can get married in the US (but not in 160 other countries), because what US citizens think doesn't count? (the majority in the US support gay marriage)
Is that why the house and US Senate recently voted almost perfectly in step, overwhelmingly in favor, of rolling back civil asset forfeiture abuses? Congress has nothing to fear from it, they do however know their voters are angry about it.
Is that why the Obama Admin put net neutrality into place, because votes & voices don't matter? It was in fact overwhelmingly demanded by Obama's voters. Votes, of course, matter in a big way as it turns out: had Hillary bothered to fight for the blue wall state voters, we'd still have net neutrality.
EFF has proven to be an ineffectual organization.
They bungled NN(infuriating me to no end), and proven partisan at every turn, which would not be a problem if they were successful.
But its clear we need a nonpartisan group who can successfully rally most of America on the left and the right.
But its clear we need a nonpartisan group who can successfully rally most of America on the left and the right.
> But its clear we need a nonpartisan group who can successfully rally most of America on the left and the right.
Why? Keep the Nazis and their friends where they belong: on the dustbin of history. There is no need to further legitimize Bannon and the rest of the alt-right bunch by rallying with them. They need to be fought relentlessly.
Why? Keep the Nazis and their friends where they belong: on the dustbin of history. There is no need to further legitimize Bannon and the rest of the alt-right bunch by rallying with them. They need to be fought relentlessly.
[deleted]
Seems like this only works with Twitter unfortunately.
[deleted]
You can't hold a tide back with a broom
Isn't this what elected officials are ment to do on our behalf?