Ask HN: Is there room for a non-profit computer science degree provider?
32 comments
> So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?
I've looked into this topic somewhat, and basically it boils down to dense regulation by governments and an oligopoly on "accreditation" by a few institutions that has risen out of this. However, the costs are not insurmountable to obtain accreditation, but the process itself is rather arduous and not quite as inexpensive as this article (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/10/22/real-costs-a...) leads you to believe, still perhaps 40-60k a year are the costs you would be looking at for accreditation alone, and you haven't even started to pay your faculty or administrators to work with the institution to maintain standards, etc.
However, in order to be accredited you need to meet each and every requirement and suggestion made by these institutions. I have no idea how pliable they would be to alternative plans of learning and anything non-standard - my guess is not very, but I could be mistaken.
> But here in the US it’s going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars at minimum. Does it have to be that way?
It doesn't. There is nothing inherent in the process of "gaining the knowledge and skills of a BA in Computer Science" that needs to costs anywhere near thousands of dollars - except in opportunity costs perhaps. Its just that the US system, through misaligned Government policy, has created an environment in which it is very difficult for an entrepreneur to just come in and "open up a new learning institution", so new and alternative models don't get tried out and aren't allowed to freely compete in order to weed out inefficiences and allow for the best to rise to the top.
I've looked into this topic somewhat, and basically it boils down to dense regulation by governments and an oligopoly on "accreditation" by a few institutions that has risen out of this. However, the costs are not insurmountable to obtain accreditation, but the process itself is rather arduous and not quite as inexpensive as this article (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/10/22/real-costs-a...) leads you to believe, still perhaps 40-60k a year are the costs you would be looking at for accreditation alone, and you haven't even started to pay your faculty or administrators to work with the institution to maintain standards, etc.
However, in order to be accredited you need to meet each and every requirement and suggestion made by these institutions. I have no idea how pliable they would be to alternative plans of learning and anything non-standard - my guess is not very, but I could be mistaken.
> But here in the US it’s going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars at minimum. Does it have to be that way?
It doesn't. There is nothing inherent in the process of "gaining the knowledge and skills of a BA in Computer Science" that needs to costs anywhere near thousands of dollars - except in opportunity costs perhaps. Its just that the US system, through misaligned Government policy, has created an environment in which it is very difficult for an entrepreneur to just come in and "open up a new learning institution", so new and alternative models don't get tried out and aren't allowed to freely compete in order to weed out inefficiences and allow for the best to rise to the top.
There is a low cost, accredited (in the US) BSc, or 2 year associates degree, in Computer Science that can be taken by online remote students anywhere in the world https://www.uopeople.edu/programs/
The only formal entrance req are the ability to read/write English, and a high school diploma. Exams are $100 each, and there's 40 exams over a 4 year period plus whatever costs for taking them proctored through ProctorU or some other local service, or somebody that agrees to be your proctor who isn't related to you. Credits can be transferred to NYU or Berkeley. Example of some of the courses: https://www.uopeople.edu/prepare-for-university/computer-sci...
There's also also wgu.edu which is non-profit and offers online degrees, not as inexpensive as UofPeople. Open University in the UK also offers remote CS BSc (and Statistics BSc) but it's around $2.5k/year GBP for part-time. Arizona State also has an online BSc in software engineering but it's reg tuition costs, so $15k+ per year.
The only formal entrance req are the ability to read/write English, and a high school diploma. Exams are $100 each, and there's 40 exams over a 4 year period plus whatever costs for taking them proctored through ProctorU or some other local service, or somebody that agrees to be your proctor who isn't related to you. Credits can be transferred to NYU or Berkeley. Example of some of the courses: https://www.uopeople.edu/prepare-for-university/computer-sci...
There's also also wgu.edu which is non-profit and offers online degrees, not as inexpensive as UofPeople. Open University in the UK also offers remote CS BSc (and Statistics BSc) but it's around $2.5k/year GBP for part-time. Arizona State also has an online BSc in software engineering but it's reg tuition costs, so $15k+ per year.
There's room. But the problem you'll find is the constant problem with raising funds and keeping staff. People have their own motivations for working at a place but the bottom line is that they must feel like they are earning enough to keep them satisfied. It varies by person. But if the workplace can't compete in pay and benefits then people move to where they can find that.
Also, it's expensive to run a quality business and you'll find that you will need to charge students about what they are paying now. You might give them a better quality education but ultimately it costs a lot of money to keep staff and the other business needs. So either you charge what it costs or you do fundraising. Also, even if you keep the costs low, students what to attend and pay for a school that will eventually give them the education that will give them the skill to get a top paying job. You need to build a reputation that will eventually create a school people want to attend.
So basically you have to have a benefactor that will pay and carry you through the expenses and the time to build a reputation. It's a very hard to do.
Also, it's expensive to run a quality business and you'll find that you will need to charge students about what they are paying now. You might give them a better quality education but ultimately it costs a lot of money to keep staff and the other business needs. So either you charge what it costs or you do fundraising. Also, even if you keep the costs low, students what to attend and pay for a school that will eventually give them the education that will give them the skill to get a top paying job. You need to build a reputation that will eventually create a school people want to attend.
So basically you have to have a benefactor that will pay and carry you through the expenses and the time to build a reputation. It's a very hard to do.
I don't see the need for a degree if you have the skills. People who have the grit to bootstrap their CS education and complete it will do so. They don't need the support of a bootcamp or an accredited institution.
In my work in trying to teach CS to refugees and underprivileged, underrepresented people, I've been discouraged. As of now, I believe that there is a very small subset of people who can really "get it" and make a difference. I think even I am not one who can, but through my hard work and determination, I've been able to eek out a pretty good income.
You can bring a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. These kids want to be doctors, flight attendants, sports stars. Sure, they'll come sit in class because their parents are making them (because they see the value in what we're offering... free CS education with professional and industry support) They'd rather hang out with their friends than secure the keys needed to break the poverty cycle.
In my work in trying to teach CS to refugees and underprivileged, underrepresented people, I've been discouraged. As of now, I believe that there is a very small subset of people who can really "get it" and make a difference. I think even I am not one who can, but through my hard work and determination, I've been able to eek out a pretty good income.
You can bring a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. These kids want to be doctors, flight attendants, sports stars. Sure, they'll come sit in class because their parents are making them (because they see the value in what we're offering... free CS education with professional and industry support) They'd rather hang out with their friends than secure the keys needed to break the poverty cycle.
> I don't see the need for a degree if you have the skills.
What skills? I see everyone saying this but the idea what industry considers skills is kinda elusive, at least to me. And I am asking this sincerely as someone who wants to break the poverty cycle. I haven't been a kid for two years now and I sincerely regret not focusing on my education instead of playing around with friends while I had the time. But what's in the past is in the past, what can I do now to improve myself from here?
I started learning to code around September-October of 2016 and applied at quite a few places during the latter half of 2017. I got rejected everywhere because they were looking for someone with either a more formal background or years of experiences. Now I understand that I was wrong to expect that I can get a job after learning for a year or so. But still, what is the skills that one should have that can equate the value of a degree from an accredited institution? Is it the number of hours or years I will spend learning? Is it the number project on GitHub? Do people who hire care about Github? One of the guys who rejected me said that there's not much incentive to hire self-taught guys as jr dev or interns since now there's a steady supply of educated engineers for such positions and the supply is increasing.
Now, I understand there's a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I plan to continue to code as a hobby and learn programming properly this time from the basics. But even then do you think just being able to code is enough of a skill to break the poverty cycle?
What skills? I see everyone saying this but the idea what industry considers skills is kinda elusive, at least to me. And I am asking this sincerely as someone who wants to break the poverty cycle. I haven't been a kid for two years now and I sincerely regret not focusing on my education instead of playing around with friends while I had the time. But what's in the past is in the past, what can I do now to improve myself from here?
I started learning to code around September-October of 2016 and applied at quite a few places during the latter half of 2017. I got rejected everywhere because they were looking for someone with either a more formal background or years of experiences. Now I understand that I was wrong to expect that I can get a job after learning for a year or so. But still, what is the skills that one should have that can equate the value of a degree from an accredited institution? Is it the number of hours or years I will spend learning? Is it the number project on GitHub? Do people who hire care about Github? One of the guys who rejected me said that there's not much incentive to hire self-taught guys as jr dev or interns since now there's a steady supply of educated engineers for such positions and the supply is increasing.
Now, I understand there's a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I plan to continue to code as a hobby and learn programming properly this time from the basics. But even then do you think just being able to code is enough of a skill to break the poverty cycle?
Would probably be more practical for them in getting a tuition free, accredited Bachelor's in Business Administration, with you acting as their free proctor and filling out scholarships for them to waive the exam fees https://www.uopeople.edu/programs/ba/degrees/business-admini...
Then you can teach them something they wouldn't find elsewhere, like using Emacs Ledger for accounting, org-mode, how to code presentations/stats, other interesting free software relevant to business. With real accreditation they could pass the entry requirements to work for an airline, be a manager in some sports team, or just get a job at a bank entry level, or start their own businesses. Somewhere in there will be a small subset of students actually interested in the theory of computation or software hacking willing to put in the work to learn it.
Then you can teach them something they wouldn't find elsewhere, like using Emacs Ledger for accounting, org-mode, how to code presentations/stats, other interesting free software relevant to business. With real accreditation they could pass the entry requirements to work for an airline, be a manager in some sports team, or just get a job at a bank entry level, or start their own businesses. Somewhere in there will be a small subset of students actually interested in the theory of computation or software hacking willing to put in the work to learn it.
>These kids
they're children. there's something tragically wrong with the world that we expect children to be so jaded that they'd rather be career climbing than "hang out with their friends". i say this as someone who occasionally wishes he did do that (hung out less and studied more) and did come relative poverty but my point still stands.
they're children. there's something tragically wrong with the world that we expect children to be so jaded that they'd rather be career climbing than "hang out with their friends". i say this as someone who occasionally wishes he did do that (hung out less and studied more) and did come relative poverty but my point still stands.
> they're children
At some point, children need to start maturing and thinking of themselves as adults. When they go off to college at 18, they're old enough to legally vote, drive, hold a job, get married or join the military. They still have a bit of growing up to do, but they're no longer children.
I spent a lot of time hanging out with friends in college, but I (and a lot of other people I knew) also worked hard at my classes (CS degree) and held down part-time jobs. My family wasn't rich, and I was old enough to realize that I'd have to support myself when I graduated.
I think we're doing young adults a disservice by thinking of them as "children".
At some point, children need to start maturing and thinking of themselves as adults. When they go off to college at 18, they're old enough to legally vote, drive, hold a job, get married or join the military. They still have a bit of growing up to do, but they're no longer children.
I spent a lot of time hanging out with friends in college, but I (and a lot of other people I knew) also worked hard at my classes (CS degree) and held down part-time jobs. My family wasn't rich, and I was old enough to realize that I'd have to support myself when I graduated.
I think we're doing young adults a disservice by thinking of them as "children".
> Why isn’t there a bootcamp that provides a bachelors level computer science degree?
Because meeting government rules for private, for-profit degree granting institutions and accreditation requirements for degree granting institutions requires a lot of expenditure and, for accreditation, time that get-rich-quick bootcamp operators aren't interested in.
> So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?
The vast majority of US colleges and universities are either private nonprofits or public institutions.
Because meeting government rules for private, for-profit degree granting institutions and accreditation requirements for degree granting institutions requires a lot of expenditure and, for accreditation, time that get-rich-quick bootcamp operators aren't interested in.
> So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?
The vast majority of US colleges and universities are either private nonprofits or public institutions.
Whether the bootcamp people are greedy or not doesn't factor in.
Getting national accreditation for a coding bootcamp would be like getting a PhD in biology to be a dog groomer. Not only is it overkill, it wouldn't really teach you to do your job.
Getting national accreditation for a coding bootcamp would be like getting a PhD in biology to be a dog groomer. Not only is it overkill, it wouldn't really teach you to do your job.
There already is, it's just not widely known, and they don't spend much money on advertising, probably to keep the fees down:
University of London International program (distance learning)
BS in Computing and Information Systems
Total Cost of 3 year degree: $8000
https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-syste...
That is not CS.
Did you actually look at the course listings? The final year includes courses in NLP, AI, Neural Networks, Data Compression, Computer Security. Sounds pretty "computer science" to me...
I did not, but do you expect the people reviewing your resume/credentials to look at the course listings? There's a reason job listings specifically ask for a CS degree. It's not necessarily a good reason, but it needs to be acknowledged. I don't have one, BTW, hence why I'm interested in an online course.
SUNY (State University of New York) now offers full tuition coverage for NY residents.
https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-exce...
https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-exce...
San Jose State University
Most public and even private universities are non profit. The American system is very service-heavy (smaller class sizes, lots of hand holding), while what you want is the German system, where your education is almost free but all they give you is have a lecture with a huge audience and one or two graded tests per semester. This is also kind of the opposite of a boot camp, which is an accelerated program that relies on lots of support.
What if we go the MOOC route with very, very frequent clicker type quizzes with detailed explanations that help students assess where they are and also severely cut down on the interaction between the student and the instructor? Any student feedback will be public and the instructor shall use it to improve the course, quizzes, and projects for all?
The average student loan debt in the US is about $30k. That's a little less than the price of the average new car sold in the US in 2017, and it's quite a bit less than the first year of salary for a graduate with a CS degree.
You can get a good education that prepares you for a high-paying career for less than the price of a Toyota Camry with leather seats. That seems to me like a fantastic deal.
You can get a good education that prepares you for a high-paying career for less than the price of a Toyota Camry with leather seats. That seems to me like a fantastic deal.
There's a pretty big difference between "average student loan debt" and "the cost of an education". The former doesn't include costs that were paid without going into debt, nor does it include debt that has been partially paid off after graduation.
Don't forget to factor in the opportunity cost of not working a full-time job for four years.
Don't forget to factor in the opportunity cost of not working a full-time job for four years.
Lots of non education expenses get rolled into student loan debt. I've known people to take out max student loan debt and buy CDs or invest it in rental property.
Some people take out excess student loan debt because they don't want to cramp their lifestyle of a nice car and eating out everyday.
Some people take out excess student loan debt because they don't want to cramp their lifestyle of a nice car and eating out everyday.
Is that the average current student debt balance? Or the average cost of tuition?
You definitely make a good point and one I hadn’t thought of. When you put it like that I don’t know why more people wouldn’t go to a reputable state school and get a CS degree and really study it out.
Time and focus. The curriculum in many degree programs isn’t just about job readiness. Students will do research, experiments, labs, write papers, attend conferences, do hackathons, try side projects, and more that often don’t fit into the timespan of a bootcamp.
A wise professor once said that students pay for two things: speed and peers. Speed affects the rate that assignments, lectures, and tests need to be completed. Peers affects the quality of learning you gain from discussing with people tackling the same problem, and often the depth of the class’s prior perspectives.
A wise professor once said that students pay for two things: speed and peers. Speed affects the rate that assignments, lectures, and tests need to be completed. Peers affects the quality of learning you gain from discussing with people tackling the same problem, and often the depth of the class’s prior perspectives.
You are confusing the average student loan debt with the average total cost of the degree; the latter is greater than the former.
Of all the degrees that could be free, one that near guarantees you one of the highest paying professional careers immediately upon graduation is not exactly a bad investment.
Personally I'd be ecstatic if they could do a remote CS degree, non-profit or no.
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Almost all US universities are non-profit.
Because a degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on unless it comes from an accredited institution - and that takes $$$.
Perhaps accreditation should be separated from education.
Why isn’t there a bootcamp that provides a bachelors level computer science degree?
I realize that most bootcamps are focused on providing people with the skills needed to get a job quickly, getting a bachelors level degree is a different market. But I would imagine there are people who would like that level of degree.
I also realize that a bachelors level degree has a number of requirements that aren’t purely comp sci requirements. I don’t see that as a problem. Why not have a full curriculum? I think that is possible.
Also, why does a comp sci degree have to cost so much? In fact, if you’re willing to put in the effort to learn and grow why can’t it be free? This may be a very US centric view. I know other countries have different ways of paying for college educations. But here in the US it’s going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars at minimum. Does it have to be that way?
So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?
What am I missing?