Inside Amazon Go(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Inside Amazon Go
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/technology/inside-amazon-go-a-store-of-the-future.html
290 comments
My cousin showed me that system back in 2009 when I was visiting. Fantastic system.
He said that around 1 times in 10, the cashier would actually check your items to make sure you weren't stealing anything- and if you had any discrepancies, you could expect to have the cashier check you every time for the next 2 months.
The main principle is that the workload of scanning the items is spread out to the customer, who isn't being paid for their time, rather than the cashier, who is.
He said that around 1 times in 10, the cashier would actually check your items to make sure you weren't stealing anything- and if you had any discrepancies, you could expect to have the cashier check you every time for the next 2 months.
The main principle is that the workload of scanning the items is spread out to the customer, who isn't being paid for their time, rather than the cashier, who is.
Safeway in the UK had it at some of their stores 20 years ago. I think it all got removed when they were acquired by Morrisons. Here's an article from 1998 talking about how they were introduced in 1995!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/shoppers-to-check-out-sup...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/shoppers-to-check-out-sup...
That's something Walmart or anyone else could do. Doing it without compromising on losing items to theft, that's where Amazon is trying to create its moat, and that is where their competitive advantage lies. They have the technology to go completely employee-free. So while it was enlightening and impressive to read about the Waitrose system, it makes it sound like Amazon is being naive and did not think about this simple solution, which I believe is not the case. Amazon could easily do that, but then everyone else could easily copy them. This technology though, Walmart is going to have a really hard time replicating it.
Someone needs to fulfill the items and chiming in under unexpected events, and clean the store. Cashiers might go, but the rest of the crew that needed to operate a store will still be there.
One advantage I would imagine for Amazon Go is going to be the experience for the customers, that without the need to queue and even forget checkout at all, is great. However I doubt how much they could save from going cashier free.
One advantage I would imagine for Amazon Go is going to be the experience for the customers, that without the need to queue and even forget checkout at all, is great. However I doubt how much they could save from going cashier free.
This is true, to be sure. And all this tech will also need expensive maintenance. I am not sure how much they'll actually end up saving. I'd also miss the happy experience that you sometimes get when dealing with a cheerful crew. The ambience and crew is one reason I shop groceries almost exclusively from Trader Joe's.
It is something that Walmart is working on. They're currently piloting it in a handful of stores and it's available at all Sam's Club locations.
Both are by phone, but WM will have dedicated had scanners for those who don't have/want a smartphone.
Both are by phone, but WM will have dedicated had scanners for those who don't have/want a smartphone.
Costco had something like that a few years ago. It would not save much time because in the end someone would need to check if you were not stealing anything. After maybe less than a year in operation they returned to old cashiers.
That's because Costco has an awfully consumer hostile policy of accusing every customer of theft as they exit the warehouse. I absolutely can't stand being accused of crime in this manner.
Curious what happens if someone just bypasses the person doing the double-checking. Is there any legal recourse for the store? I could only see this as the case if there is something in the member agreement, the stuff is paid for...
Last time I tried this, I got yelled at as I walked away, and a manager followed me all the way to my car yelling at me, and snatched the receipt out of my hand as I was unloading the cart into my trunk. Truly the height of rudeness.
Nope. If there's a queue waiting to have their items checked I just walk past them. If they can't do it quickly enough it's their problem.
Is having an RFID detection system at the door of a library that beeps if you forget to check out a book also consumer hostile?
Like that damn policeman on the corner with a radar gun, implicitly accusing every driver of speeding as they drive by.
That has always annoyed me as well, though in fairness the two times they caught a discrepancy at the exit it was in my favor (forgot an item at the checkout in one case, double charged in the other).
They even accuse you of theft when it ENTER the place. They're so militant about it. I'm almost scared to go into one if I ever go to America for fear of them gunning me down with a rifle if I go within twenty meters of the entrance without a card. The hostility towards everyone really puts me off, and I haven't been able to bring myself to get a membership yet.
Maybe Costco should try not treating people that paid for the "privilege" of shopping there like they were criminals..
Stop & Shop in the US has the same system, for a similar amount of time (about 10 years).
Even down to the "rescan" audits by an employee. The only downer with Stop & Shop is the audits went from something I'd encounter a few times a year, to something I'd encounter every other visit.
Even down to the "rescan" audits by an employee. The only downer with Stop & Shop is the audits went from something I'd encounter a few times a year, to something I'd encounter every other visit.
Sam's Club has an app like this for some stores. Works really well for large bulk items.
The system will not work in many places. It is based on honor code i.e, no body will take an item without scanning it. Most supermarkets have razor thin margins - add theft and they will not be able to make money.
Anyone in Retail Loss Prevention will tell you the Front Door is not where the Loss is, The Loss is going out the back door i.e employee theft.
As to "Razor Thin Margins" that relative, Walmart got in to Groceries because they could make more money then when they were just a General Goods Store. While the per item margin might be slightly lower than General Goods the volumes are WAY higher thus making it over all more profitable. That also means loss is actually less impactful
As to "Razor Thin Margins" that relative, Walmart got in to Groceries because they could make more money then when they were just a General Goods Store. While the per item margin might be slightly lower than General Goods the volumes are WAY higher thus making it over all more profitable. That also means loss is actually less impactful
Giant has that here and it’s a huge pain in the ass and takes way more time than just going through the checkout line to scan everything while you’re shopping, if you’re buying anything more than a few items.
Could you elaborate on why?
I've also used the system at Waitrose and it's completely painless, so I'd guess if there's a problem it's due to poor implementation.
One particular advantage for me was that I could take my backpack around the shop filling it up, so I'd never have to worry whether I was buying too much to fit.
And it also meant I could be sure multi-buy discounts have processed before I got to the checkout, instead of having to check my receipt and make a fuss about it if they didn't.
The only minor issue I noticed is that if you're buying alcohol you need a member of staff to confirm your age, and they often don't have dedicated staff on the QuickCheck machines when it's quiet, but even then it still doesn't take long to find someone.
I've also used the system at Waitrose and it's completely painless, so I'd guess if there's a problem it's due to poor implementation.
One particular advantage for me was that I could take my backpack around the shop filling it up, so I'd never have to worry whether I was buying too much to fit.
And it also meant I could be sure multi-buy discounts have processed before I got to the checkout, instead of having to check my receipt and make a fuss about it if they didn't.
The only minor issue I noticed is that if you're buying alcohol you need a member of staff to confirm your age, and they often don't have dedicated staff on the QuickCheck machines when it's quiet, but even then it still doesn't take long to find someone.
> They are only one step away from allowing you to pay with your smartphone and walk out...
Apple does this for items below a certain value – you walk in, open the Apple Store app, scan the barcode on the product, then walk out with it.
Apple does this for items below a certain value – you walk in, open the Apple Store app, scan the barcode on the product, then walk out with it.
What happens when you bag something without scanning?
With the Tesco system in the UK, if you are rescanned by an employee on a random scan and are found to have a mismatch then your Clubcard ( that you swipe to release a hand-scanner from the racks ) is marked as ineligible, and you have to go through the self-service or normal tills in future.
10% of the time you get caught and then are scabbed by an employee every time you come in(like normal)
I know the standard reaction from a lot of HN folk will be to celebrate this progress: it's faster, more efficient, and no one likes to waste time waiting in line.
Still, though, I think Amazon's automation of the retail experience is helping to create a society where there is even less real social interaction, and I think it's a factor (if even a small one currently) in the increasing tribalism in American society.
Throughout history, "the marketplace" had been one of the major centers of interpersonal interaction, and these days for many people it's possibly to completely avoid ever having to go to the store. I'm not sure that's a great thing.
Still, though, I think Amazon's automation of the retail experience is helping to create a society where there is even less real social interaction, and I think it's a factor (if even a small one currently) in the increasing tribalism in American society.
Throughout history, "the marketplace" had been one of the major centers of interpersonal interaction, and these days for many people it's possibly to completely avoid ever having to go to the store. I'm not sure that's a great thing.
The marketplace today is hardly the place for meaningful interaction, whether with employees or other shoppers. What it seems like to me is unpaid emotional labor. To have interesting social time, we need less hours at work and more public (non-commercial) spaces to meet. For example, where are children supposed to meet?
Social time with the freedom to choose how you spend it allows individuals to congregate into their own tribes and pursue interests pertinent to them. Forced social interactions that are the byproduct of other necessary transactions are how we learn from others unlike ourselves.
Your comment is spot on.
Being in line at the DMV is probably the best example I can think of this.
I'm usually waiting for a while, and chatting with whomever is next to me. Not unusual to be an interesting conversation with someone I'd have never otherwise spoken to (and probably vice versa).
Being in line at the DMV is probably the best example I can think of this.
I'm usually waiting for a while, and chatting with whomever is next to me. Not unusual to be an interesting conversation with someone I'd have never otherwise spoken to (and probably vice versa).
Some people here talk about conversations struck up waiting in the check-out line or at the DMV. I think that is the exception rather than the norm. Just the like bus, or airplane are other forced scenarios, but I think people who strike up a conversation are the exception and not the norm, and I would suspect that they have been down-trending for awhile.
What people call "tribalism" I would re-frame as class structuralism. People might segregate themselves by class via Whole Foods vs Walmart, but that doesn't mean people are striking up conversations within-class or between-classes. That doesn't seem very "tribal" versus what American Christians have; rather it seems loosely coherent.
And again, I would ask whether a commercial space is really the best place going forward. I am struck by the number of places a young person wouldn't feel like going without a credit card.
What people call "tribalism" I would re-frame as class structuralism. People might segregate themselves by class via Whole Foods vs Walmart, but that doesn't mean people are striking up conversations within-class or between-classes. That doesn't seem very "tribal" versus what American Christians have; rather it seems loosely coherent.
And again, I would ask whether a commercial space is really the best place going forward. I am struck by the number of places a young person wouldn't feel like going without a credit card.
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> The marketplace today is hardly the place for meaningful interaction, whether with employees or other shoppers.
While I somewhat agree with you, I still think that by taking away the need for millions of people to have lots of little banal interactions, we're also erasing the possibility, on a society-wide scale, of more meaningful interactions that sometimes spring from those trivial little conversations.
While I somewhat agree with you, I still think that by taking away the need for millions of people to have lots of little banal interactions, we're also erasing the possibility, on a society-wide scale, of more meaningful interactions that sometimes spring from those trivial little conversations.
I often learn a lot at the check out lines here in Oregon. People chat, exchange information. Often banal, sometimes valuable. Always nice.
I'm sorry, but it's completely unclear how nice chats do anything to resolve "American tribalism", or, more pertinently, why it's the responsibility of marketplace owners to generate squares of social interaction at all.
Even if this slight increase in social interaction did anything ("cash or credit?" -- "Credit, ma'am"), that's as ridiculous as fixing race conditions with sleep() calls (hehe, race conditions).
Even if this slight increase in social interaction did anything ("cash or credit?" -- "Credit, ma'am"), that's as ridiculous as fixing race conditions with sleep() calls (hehe, race conditions).
Nice chats don't have to resolve 'American tribalism' to be worthwhile.
Sure, they might be worthwhile in isolation, but the context from the GGP was that they're worthwhile enough to worry about Amazon Go (by being a valuable source of interpersonal contact during times of "increasing tribalism").
Why use a throwaway account?
But to answer your comment: the comment was not about the chit-chat with the cashier, but other people in the line.
But to answer your comment: the comment was not about the chit-chat with the cashier, but other people in the line.
I am genuinely afraid of any even modestly political claim being publicly attached to me ("it's not the marketplace owner's responsibility" has a libertarian flavor to it).
I can confidently say that's _not_ the case in most urban areas.
I dunno. Yesterday at the Farmers Market, I was shopping for produce (salads) and had a conversation with 2 different women. The first offered advice on what to pick, and their health benefits. The second, in turn, was the recipient of my limited knowledge.
I live in San Francisco.
I live in San Francisco.
If those supposed health benefits aren't real or are misrepresented, which I would guess is likely, then that social interaction was a net negative for society.
Most HN users live in urban areas. Here in NYC your average check out line is people on their phones and/or with headphones on. And before you say NYC is an outlier, it was the same when I lived in semi-rural suburban Texas.
>> Most HN users live in urban areas.
I didn't know YC published HN's demographics. Do you have a link?
I didn't know YC published HN's demographics. Do you have a link?
>80% of the American population lived in what is called an urban area in the 2010 census [1]. While their definition of urban is looser than you might use, still >60% lived in 'cities'[2].
Unless the wealthier, more connected, more educated readership of Hacker News strongly bucks every trend suggested by their demographics, it's pretty safe to say we mostly live in urban areas.
[1]https://www.citylab.com/equity/2012/03/us-urban-population-w... [2]https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-33....
Unless the wealthier, more connected, more educated readership of Hacker News strongly bucks every trend suggested by their demographics, it's pretty safe to say we mostly live in urban areas.
[1]https://www.citylab.com/equity/2012/03/us-urban-population-w... [2]https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-33....
How do you know HN is made up of only Americans?
The demographic trends in the GP aren't unique to America. They're more or less the rule in most developed countries, and I think it's safe to say most HN users probably come from developed countries.
Can you cite a source for that? How can you infer the demographics of HN in the absence of data?
Where I come from, it's pretty poor form to ask people to cite sources for obvious statements, without any other insight or commentary. After all, you're asking them to do work for you, but not taking basic steps to suggest you might appreciate their effort.
The preferred option is to do a little reading of your own beforehand, and to share whatever it is you know that makes you think the obvious answer might not be right.
The preferred option is to do a little reading of your own beforehand, and to share whatever it is you know that makes you think the obvious answer might not be right.
Non American HN member here. It will apply here too. Me and most other people from Europe / Asia I know that are on HN are from big cities.
As someone who lives in what can be considered a rural area for the most part, it's not largely different. The last population count put the town at ~4500 for reference.
You still have people in checkout lines on their phones or parents giving their kids a phone with YouTube or a mobile game to distract them. The older folk, as you might expect, tend to strike up conversation and bump into those they don't know.
I worked retail a few years in this town (which is finally coming to an end) and the few times I can remember strangers striking up a conversation with me were mainly them spreading misinformation.
A few years back, one elderly man swore black and blue that "they" were canning all of the "irradiated fish" from the Fukushima fallout and selling it to unsuspecting customers. Another lady told me the story of a man who just happened to be stumbling around "a major Chinese city" and peering into a factory window only to see that "the Chinese" were turning cardboard into cookies and selling them to us unsuspecting Westerners.
By no means are the above stories an indicator of country folk but let's just say I have my reasons for not jumping at the chance to talk with strangers. Half the time it's just an excuse for them to offload their stories onto me rather than actually being a two way conversation anyway.
EDIT: I just mentioned the overall feel of the discussions to my dad as he's the sort to strike up conversation with anyone. Having presented both sides of the discussion, he instantly discarded one side as "wrong" without actually weighing up any of the points. While it's anecdotal, it's no wonder I'm somewhat the opposite. Each conversation turns into a debate to win rather than a discussion.
Given "equal and opposite reaction[s]", I wonder if tribalism is inevitable? Did we ever actually defuse this kind of stuff in society or was it just hidden away due to geography eg; distance between rural and urban areas?
You still have people in checkout lines on their phones or parents giving their kids a phone with YouTube or a mobile game to distract them. The older folk, as you might expect, tend to strike up conversation and bump into those they don't know.
I worked retail a few years in this town (which is finally coming to an end) and the few times I can remember strangers striking up a conversation with me were mainly them spreading misinformation.
A few years back, one elderly man swore black and blue that "they" were canning all of the "irradiated fish" from the Fukushima fallout and selling it to unsuspecting customers. Another lady told me the story of a man who just happened to be stumbling around "a major Chinese city" and peering into a factory window only to see that "the Chinese" were turning cardboard into cookies and selling them to us unsuspecting Westerners.
By no means are the above stories an indicator of country folk but let's just say I have my reasons for not jumping at the chance to talk with strangers. Half the time it's just an excuse for them to offload their stories onto me rather than actually being a two way conversation anyway.
EDIT: I just mentioned the overall feel of the discussions to my dad as he's the sort to strike up conversation with anyone. Having presented both sides of the discussion, he instantly discarded one side as "wrong" without actually weighing up any of the points. While it's anecdotal, it's no wonder I'm somewhat the opposite. Each conversation turns into a debate to win rather than a discussion.
Given "equal and opposite reaction[s]", I wonder if tribalism is inevitable? Did we ever actually defuse this kind of stuff in society or was it just hidden away due to geography eg; distance between rural and urban areas?
This is a regional cultural thing. I’ve mostly noticed it in ethnically and linguistically homogenous areas. Absolutely not the case in most American urban centers outside of the northern US.
I agree. I hate this idea of "removing social interaction." People complain about everyone on their cellphones in the mornings. However if you look at videos from the 1970s and 80s, no one interacts on the trains back then either. They've all got their newspapers and magazines and the nerdy kids have their walkmans.
Today it's no longer nerdy to listen to music, everyone has earbuds in and your newspaper and magazines are all easily accessible on tiny little screens which use a lot less paper.
Today it's no longer nerdy to listen to music, everyone has earbuds in and your newspaper and magazines are all easily accessible on tiny little screens which use a lot less paper.
> where there is even less real social interaction
Good?
I'm an introvert. I don't value random, superficial interactions with people I'll never talk to again. In fact, they cause me anxiety & I dislike them.
I do value the time with a select group of people.
And by reducing the time I spend in the supermarket it allows more of the human interaction I do value.
My social group has a wide assortment of views, from Muslim to Catholic to Athiest, to #TrumpTrain2020 to #NotMyPresident.
I've never witnessed nor heard of people having meaningful discussion with the checkout clerk. I've never seen nor heard of someone, after that brief interaction, saying "You know, you're right. I'll reconsider my position on the person of the opposing political party."
The statement marketplaces may have been true when we in the barter system, but it certainly hasn't been president in modern society for sometime. And I say that as someone who grew up in a town of 2,000 in the 70s and has lived in a large urban area for the last 20.
Good?
I'm an introvert. I don't value random, superficial interactions with people I'll never talk to again. In fact, they cause me anxiety & I dislike them.
I do value the time with a select group of people.
And by reducing the time I spend in the supermarket it allows more of the human interaction I do value.
My social group has a wide assortment of views, from Muslim to Catholic to Athiest, to #TrumpTrain2020 to #NotMyPresident.
I've never witnessed nor heard of people having meaningful discussion with the checkout clerk. I've never seen nor heard of someone, after that brief interaction, saying "You know, you're right. I'll reconsider my position on the person of the opposing political party."
The statement marketplaces may have been true when we in the barter system, but it certainly hasn't been president in modern society for sometime. And I say that as someone who grew up in a town of 2,000 in the 70s and has lived in a large urban area for the last 20.
My mom shopped at the same grocery store for 30 years. Some of the cashiers lived in our neighborhood, and we would see them every time we went grocery shopping and sometimes around the neighborhood. The cashiers knew me by name from when I was a baby grocery shopping with my mom. I suppose it depends on what you call a meaningful discussion, but seeing the cashiers was like catching up with a friend. This was in Ottawa so not a small town, and I'm in my late thirties now.
Your mom's experience is not typical.
> Throughout history, "the marketplace" had been one of the major centers of interpersonal interaction
If you shop at Whole Foods, Target, Trader Joe's, Kroger, etc. this has never been true for you, unless by social interaction you mean handing your card to the cashier or asking someone a question. Even in my local, family owned grocery store I don't see this "marketplace" attitude. I doubt it exists anywhere outside of small communities nowadays in the US. Most people work 8 hours a day and hang out at home or in bars/coffee shops; we don't really want to hang out in a marketplace.
Note that I don't disagree with your overall point... I just don't think this is a good example.
If you shop at Whole Foods, Target, Trader Joe's, Kroger, etc. this has never been true for you, unless by social interaction you mean handing your card to the cashier or asking someone a question. Even in my local, family owned grocery store I don't see this "marketplace" attitude. I doubt it exists anywhere outside of small communities nowadays in the US. Most people work 8 hours a day and hang out at home or in bars/coffee shops; we don't really want to hang out in a marketplace.
Note that I don't disagree with your overall point... I just don't think this is a good example.
While it might not have been a particularly "deep" interaction, I definitely got to know my favorite checkout person at Whole Foods, knowing what he used to do, keeping each other up to date on new things we were doing, and even following his move from being a checker at Whole Foods to being a manager at another nearby store.
I miss the person who used to work at the Staples who always lit up my day when I needed to buy paper.
I miss the person who used to work at the Staples who always lit up my day when I needed to buy paper.
In the future you can just buy a crate for $4.99 that could unlock any one of 10 unique alert sounds that will brighten your day when you checkout! And for $9.99/mo you can subscribe to the feed of your favorite restocker and get daily updates about the food their eating and the cute dog they saw on the way home or how great their butt looks in yoga pants! You can even send them creepy messages up to 10 times a month if you have the premium sub (which is only an extra $2.99).
I'm not in the US, but yeah, the supermarket experience here is not a social event. In fact, cashiers will get annoyed if you start making small talk.
My small local corner store is different, but then again they won't be replaced by an app anytime soon, exactly for that reason.
My small local corner store is different, but then again they won't be replaced by an app anytime soon, exactly for that reason.
Here in Amsterdam I can step into the supermarket, pick and scan items with my phone, put them on a bag, pay with contactless and leave without any human contact. I’ve been doing this multiple times a week for the past 4 years, so nothing new.
I think you’re dramatising what is a natural step as shopping evolves with technology. If you value social interaction you can always spend more time with friends you appreciate, go to public spaces, head to the bar. The supermarket has hardly ever been a source of good times anyway.
I think you’re dramatising what is a natural step as shopping evolves with technology. If you value social interaction you can always spend more time with friends you appreciate, go to public spaces, head to the bar. The supermarket has hardly ever been a source of good times anyway.
The revolution here isn't self-checkout. In my country most stores already have that, which means all social interaction is eliminated already. So your argument is less about Amazon Go and more about self-checkout. The revolution is that you don't need to scan any items yourself or do anything at all. Just pick your items and go out.
The revolution is in how you spend your time. On an ordinary day when you know what you want for lunch, it can take under a minute to pop in and get it, under 10 seconds if you’re in a hurry.
none of these things are a "revolution"
Yeah, revolution is definitely hyperbole, but from experience it does change the way you think about “popping into a store” because it really can take so little time. This can be both good and bad; you can pick up lunch in a hurry without that frustrating 5 minutes waiting to pay, but on the other hand you can also pick up a chocolate chip cookie between meetings far far too easily.
The revolution is more about Amazon getting into grocery shopping. What they are hoping to do with this concept is to create an automated store that can be supplied via there warehouses. So that with minimum effort they can run grocery storefronts all over the United States and take over that business as well.
I understand how you feel that way. It feels like Amazon, and others, are creating a wholly atomized society. Where people exist without having to admit that other people exist. Where people are stripped away from society for profit.
But... what if I want that? What if I don't want to be coerced into social interaction, every day, just so I get get my basic physical needs met? What if I want to engage with society and humans on my terms, rather than on yours?
Who gets to decide? I welcome this because it gives me another choice. It moves me one step further away from the coerced-social-interaction experient you envision as heavenly and towards a world where I get to make one more of the choices that matters to me.
But... what if I want that? What if I don't want to be coerced into social interaction, every day, just so I get get my basic physical needs met? What if I want to engage with society and humans on my terms, rather than on yours?
Who gets to decide? I welcome this because it gives me another choice. It moves me one step further away from the coerced-social-interaction experient you envision as heavenly and towards a world where I get to make one more of the choices that matters to me.
You might be right, or your view might lead to social collapse. Society has been functioning for millenia; it's not clear that can work without people talking to each other. For an HN-pertinent example: If no one wanted to put together a company, would anyone have a job? Can computers really mediate all human interaction? If so, why are social connections so important in building a successful tech company?
The difference might be that you could enjoy your conversations and outings with your coworkers, but less so when you’re grabbing groceries at a supermarket.
Conversely, society has been function for millennia, despite all the crazy things that humans have done before - as we change, it adapts.
In fact, who is to say that the present typical amount of social interaction is optimal or even generally desirable? It's a function of our society and its tech today, it didn't come up on stone tablets from the heaven.
In fact, who is to say that the present typical amount of social interaction is optimal or even generally desirable? It's a function of our society and its tech today, it didn't come up on stone tablets from the heaven.
You might be right! It is, indeed, possible that letting people choose to talk to one another instead of coercing them into it may lead to the destruction of society.
But, consider. If letting people talk to one another - or not - as they choose rather than as some would-be society-engineer decides leads to social collapse, what will actually be lost? Is so fragile a system really worth preserving? I submit that it may not be.
Personally, I don't require that computers mediate all human interaction. I do rather like having a choice, though.
But, consider. If letting people talk to one another - or not - as they choose rather than as some would-be society-engineer decides leads to social collapse, what will actually be lost? Is so fragile a system really worth preserving? I submit that it may not be.
Personally, I don't require that computers mediate all human interaction. I do rather like having a choice, though.
It's not like you'll be the only person in the Amazon store.
I think you're right, and I haven't seen the answer from our society yet. If you can sit at home and get things delivered (which is easier and addicting), you do miss out on different experiences (some good, some bad). You can imagine a world where many of our storefronts could empty out.
If you work from home, get Amazon deliveries, go to school online, etc... what will you do and what storefronts do you need? Are bars, restaurants and barbers enough?
One of my favorite anecdotes that makes me think... has our whole society evolved incorrectly?
"In 18th-century America, colonial society and Native American society sat side by side. The former was buddingly commercial; the latter was communal and tribal. As time went by, the settlers from Europe noticed something: No Indians were defecting to join colonial society, but many whites were defecting to live in the Native American one."[1]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/opinion/the-great-affluen...
If you work from home, get Amazon deliveries, go to school online, etc... what will you do and what storefronts do you need? Are bars, restaurants and barbers enough?
One of my favorite anecdotes that makes me think... has our whole society evolved incorrectly?
"In 18th-century America, colonial society and Native American society sat side by side. The former was buddingly commercial; the latter was communal and tribal. As time went by, the settlers from Europe noticed something: No Indians were defecting to join colonial society, but many whites were defecting to live in the Native American one."[1]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/opinion/the-great-affluen...
The example is obvious if you actually step outside your door. Anyone can get anything delivered at any time of day or year, so other than going to work, there is no need right now for anyone to leave their house, ever. But funny enough, if you go into any downtown area, any park, any waterfront, any restaurant, they're busy. Abnormally busy, based on the fact that, again, none of them have any need to be there.
Turns out that when you relieve people of the burdens of things they have to do (like grocery shopping, which is oftentimes tedious and boring), they now have more time and energy to do things they want to do. Instead of forced interactions at the grocery store, they'll go to a park and talk to people they actually want to talk to. Instead of spending an entire day going to Costco and shoving their way through the crowds, they visit a boutique store and stop for coffee at a local cafe.
Some of the comments in this thread are quite curious. Bemoaning the death of tedious chores and banal small-talk like these are things the general public actually enjoys doing rather than merely tolerates out of necessity.
Turns out that when you relieve people of the burdens of things they have to do (like grocery shopping, which is oftentimes tedious and boring), they now have more time and energy to do things they want to do. Instead of forced interactions at the grocery store, they'll go to a park and talk to people they actually want to talk to. Instead of spending an entire day going to Costco and shoving their way through the crowds, they visit a boutique store and stop for coffee at a local cafe.
Some of the comments in this thread are quite curious. Bemoaning the death of tedious chores and banal small-talk like these are things the general public actually enjoys doing rather than merely tolerates out of necessity.
Good point! Cities are doing great worldwide, and few seem like they lack people doing stuff.
But of course you don't see the people who are at home or in the suburbs (shudder). Loneliness and solitude seem to be growing as well. Maybe worst in Japan, but the problem also exists worldwide.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/11/asia/japanese-millennials-hiki...
But of course you don't see the people who are at home or in the suburbs (shudder). Loneliness and solitude seem to be growing as well. Maybe worst in Japan, but the problem also exists worldwide.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/11/asia/japanese-millennials-hiki...
> But funny enough, if you go into any downtown area, any park, any waterfront, any restaurant, they're busy. Abnormally busy, based on the fact that, again, none of them have any need to be there.
I don't think that's true at all, except maybe in the sense that rich urban centers are crowded with inherited-wealthy young adults.
> visit a boutique store
Exactly. See above.
> stop for coffee at a local cafe.
Cafes are crowded because people don't like to be alone, even when they are doing an essentially alone activity (whatever is on the laptop everyone is sitting there with).
I don't think that's true at all, except maybe in the sense that rich urban centers are crowded with inherited-wealthy young adults.
> visit a boutique store
Exactly. See above.
> stop for coffee at a local cafe.
Cafes are crowded because people don't like to be alone, even when they are doing an essentially alone activity (whatever is on the laptop everyone is sitting there with).
>I don't think that's true at all
Funny thing about the truth is that it doesn't matter if you think it's true or not. It's still true. I make a living traveling for work, and I make a hobby of finding out small downtown areas and visiting them, and there's never a shortage in basically any thriving region of people out and about doing things they want to be doing.
You can point to some dying towns and say "look, these guys closed the business so that disproves your point" but forever in the history of forever, towns have been growing and towns have been shrinking. As one place wins, another necessarily loses.
Visit the Lake Michigan beach in Saugatuck MI, walk the riverwalk in Little Rock AR, head down Broad Street in Lake Geneva WI, grab a beer at Reclamation Brewing Company in Butler PA and tell me people don't socialize anymore. Grab some wings at Chase's in Norcross GA and tell me you'd rather talk about the weather with a stranger at Walmart than eat great food and have a real conversation with Chase's mom on the patio in the cool Georgia night air.
Small talk at Whole Foods isn't socializing. You want people to talk to? Go to where you want to be, and there will be people who want to be there too, and guess what, you already have a conversation starter.
Funny thing about the truth is that it doesn't matter if you think it's true or not. It's still true. I make a living traveling for work, and I make a hobby of finding out small downtown areas and visiting them, and there's never a shortage in basically any thriving region of people out and about doing things they want to be doing.
You can point to some dying towns and say "look, these guys closed the business so that disproves your point" but forever in the history of forever, towns have been growing and towns have been shrinking. As one place wins, another necessarily loses.
Visit the Lake Michigan beach in Saugatuck MI, walk the riverwalk in Little Rock AR, head down Broad Street in Lake Geneva WI, grab a beer at Reclamation Brewing Company in Butler PA and tell me people don't socialize anymore. Grab some wings at Chase's in Norcross GA and tell me you'd rather talk about the weather with a stranger at Walmart than eat great food and have a real conversation with Chase's mom on the patio in the cool Georgia night air.
Small talk at Whole Foods isn't socializing. You want people to talk to? Go to where you want to be, and there will be people who want to be there too, and guess what, you already have a conversation starter.
>there's never a shortage in basically any thriving region of people out and about doing things
The point the parent was making is that these bustling public areas you're seeing are primarily made up of affluent young people, and are not actually representative of how the majority of society lives.
You have offered no counterpoint to that at all, and yet still chose to start your comment with a rude dismissal.
The point the parent was making is that these bustling public areas you're seeing are primarily made up of affluent young people, and are not actually representative of how the majority of society lives.
You have offered no counterpoint to that at all, and yet still chose to start your comment with a rude dismissal.
The counterpoint was the places I mentioned, which you've seemed to miss. I'm not talking about NYC and Austin and Seattle and SF, I'm talking middle America, normal small towns.
What's rude is people saying "Amazon is killing all social interaction" while not stopping to wonder why all of their social interaction is small talk at a Walmart. That's the problem. Again, like I've said over and over and over and over and everyone ignores to nitpick, that's not social interaction. That's small talk. I have no idea why you're treating standing in a checkout lane like it's the Roman Forum.
What's rude is people saying "Amazon is killing all social interaction" while not stopping to wonder why all of their social interaction is small talk at a Walmart. That's the problem. Again, like I've said over and over and over and over and everyone ignores to nitpick, that's not social interaction. That's small talk. I have no idea why you're treating standing in a checkout lane like it's the Roman Forum.
Every modern good, service and machine is helping to create a society with less real social interaction, and has been for decades. We're only feeling it now because we're reaching the horizon of not having to directly interact with another human being, ever, while still being able to take advantage of many other aspects of modern life.
The real lamentation is that the lack of interaction is perhaps less of a "choice" and more of a necessity for many people. Casual socialization is becoming a privilege reserved for the people who can afford to indulge. Everyone else is too busy getting by, and will choose the path of least interaction because they can't afford the inefficiency. Economic pressure over generations may make introverts of us all.
The real lamentation is that the lack of interaction is perhaps less of a "choice" and more of a necessity for many people. Casual socialization is becoming a privilege reserved for the people who can afford to indulge. Everyone else is too busy getting by, and will choose the path of least interaction because they can't afford the inefficiency. Economic pressure over generations may make introverts of us all.
>Throughout history, "the marketplace" had been one of the major centers of interpersonal interaction
If you mean "the coffee shop" (there's a long history there) or "the pub" (a longer history, in the western tradition there) sure, I agree. I'm not saying randos approach me all the time when I'm in those sorts of places, but it happens. It doesn't happen at the grocery store hardly at all.
It happens a lot more often in the ride sharing services than even the pub; Yesterday I took my Saturday afternoon ride to Fry's for sandwiches, (The Fry's Sunnyvale Cafe is passable. Not bad. Not as good as the dedicated food places on Murphy, say, but it is super nostalgic for me, so it's something of a weekend tradition.) and while nobody talked to me in the Fry's cafe (I mean, aside from the procurement of food. I have met other interesting people there in the past.) the driver actually apologized to me because he spent most of the ride there speaking with another rider in a foreign language, which was mostly interesting in that he seemed to think that I had some expectation of being included in conversation as he drove. But yeah, I talk to the drivers often, a lot more than talking to strangers in retail spaces.
I guess what I'm saying is that social spaces need space for idling. Sitting in the back of the car does this, as does serving food or drink. Buying groceries, I think, does not.
If you mean "the coffee shop" (there's a long history there) or "the pub" (a longer history, in the western tradition there) sure, I agree. I'm not saying randos approach me all the time when I'm in those sorts of places, but it happens. It doesn't happen at the grocery store hardly at all.
It happens a lot more often in the ride sharing services than even the pub; Yesterday I took my Saturday afternoon ride to Fry's for sandwiches, (The Fry's Sunnyvale Cafe is passable. Not bad. Not as good as the dedicated food places on Murphy, say, but it is super nostalgic for me, so it's something of a weekend tradition.) and while nobody talked to me in the Fry's cafe (I mean, aside from the procurement of food. I have met other interesting people there in the past.) the driver actually apologized to me because he spent most of the ride there speaking with another rider in a foreign language, which was mostly interesting in that he seemed to think that I had some expectation of being included in conversation as he drove. But yeah, I talk to the drivers often, a lot more than talking to strangers in retail spaces.
I guess what I'm saying is that social spaces need space for idling. Sitting in the back of the car does this, as does serving food or drink. Buying groceries, I think, does not.
and I think there's something different culturally about waiting in line for prepared food I'm going to eat there and waiting in line in the grocery store; I much more frequently am approached by random people in line at Sam's than at Safeway, even though I spend a lot more time in the latter.
Or maybe we're just returning back to normal. Consider: historically, in hunter-gatherer societies for example, everyone knows everyone, and that's their social circle. You don't really interact with random strangers, except in very few, usually very formalized ways (or warfare).
Compare this to our existing society: most of the people that you're expected - in fact, required (at work etc) - to interact with, are strangers. Most of our communication protocols deal with various aspects of that.
With this kind tech, we retreat back to our comfy bubbles of familiar people that we've known for a long time, and away from the strangers.
Compare this to our existing society: most of the people that you're expected - in fact, required (at work etc) - to interact with, are strangers. Most of our communication protocols deal with various aspects of that.
With this kind tech, we retreat back to our comfy bubbles of familiar people that we've known for a long time, and away from the strangers.
Technology is not an issue related to this problem. Bigger corporations in general make this inevitable. How meaningful of an interaction do you have with the tired cashier at Walmart or any other big retailer? Even at Trader Joes, the few minutes of interaction are rarely meaningful, even if I try to make them so, and that is the absolute best example. Small talk is not that engaging.
Even more so, technology for not having to interact with cashiers ever already exists: the self-checkout system. If I walk into a chain store like Meijer, people will be piled up at the self-checkout even if there is a completely free human cashier waiting for customers!
But even so, people are not checking out to socialize. Even what they do say isn't so substantial. Things move too fast, there's too many customers and too little time. How often do you remember the name of your cashier? How often are they still working there a year later?
Amazon's store actually represents a potential departure because as they say, they introduce humans in ways they think will improve the customer experience. Quote:
>“We’ve just put associates on different kinds of tasks where we think it adds to the customer experience,” Ms. Puerini said.
So there are people. And those people, with their hopefully less hectic roles, are almost certain to interact with customers in ways that will be more meaningful than the overworked cashier with a line of 10 carts and a full bladder. And perhaps, if the job doesn't suck (unlike many of Amazon's jobs, unfortunately,) they might actually stick around to become a normal you can interact with.
Of course, that's completely just conjecture. I actually believe Amazon's store will be around the same as any other in terms of the social value you get out of it, which is to say minimal at best. If people actually had meaningful value to get out of visiting marketplaces in modern times, they'd look forward to it instead of looking for how to eliminate it.
Even more so, technology for not having to interact with cashiers ever already exists: the self-checkout system. If I walk into a chain store like Meijer, people will be piled up at the self-checkout even if there is a completely free human cashier waiting for customers!
But even so, people are not checking out to socialize. Even what they do say isn't so substantial. Things move too fast, there's too many customers and too little time. How often do you remember the name of your cashier? How often are they still working there a year later?
Amazon's store actually represents a potential departure because as they say, they introduce humans in ways they think will improve the customer experience. Quote:
>“We’ve just put associates on different kinds of tasks where we think it adds to the customer experience,” Ms. Puerini said.
So there are people. And those people, with their hopefully less hectic roles, are almost certain to interact with customers in ways that will be more meaningful than the overworked cashier with a line of 10 carts and a full bladder. And perhaps, if the job doesn't suck (unlike many of Amazon's jobs, unfortunately,) they might actually stick around to become a normal you can interact with.
Of course, that's completely just conjecture. I actually believe Amazon's store will be around the same as any other in terms of the social value you get out of it, which is to say minimal at best. If people actually had meaningful value to get out of visiting marketplaces in modern times, they'd look forward to it instead of looking for how to eliminate it.
I think it comes down to respect and social status. In the times that the marketplace was a place of meaningful interaction, the vendors were merchants or tradesmen selling their products and those were relatively respected stations in life. They weren't nobility, but they weren't at the lowest strata either.
Today, retail is a near-zero-skill job that's manned by people who are either young or uneducated. When I worked retail between high school and college, I remember there being a glaring mix of people like me who were transitioning through it and lifers who'd been there for a decade or more. And you could see it in the interactions with customers. When dealing with the younger employees, customers often adopted an avuncular style that's used when dealing with people of the same class but different generation. But when I'd see people talk to the lifers, the interactions were more mechanical and less personal. It was almost as if customers felt that there wasn't any shared context and so a conversation that went beyond the immediate transaction was pointless.
I contrast this with my experiences going to farmer's markets. There, vendors are viewed much more as equals. They're largely respected and often own their own business. It's much more common to see people having conversations that feel like they're between equals than it is to see those conversations at a traditional supermarket.
Today, retail is a near-zero-skill job that's manned by people who are either young or uneducated. When I worked retail between high school and college, I remember there being a glaring mix of people like me who were transitioning through it and lifers who'd been there for a decade or more. And you could see it in the interactions with customers. When dealing with the younger employees, customers often adopted an avuncular style that's used when dealing with people of the same class but different generation. But when I'd see people talk to the lifers, the interactions were more mechanical and less personal. It was almost as if customers felt that there wasn't any shared context and so a conversation that went beyond the immediate transaction was pointless.
I contrast this with my experiences going to farmer's markets. There, vendors are viewed much more as equals. They're largely respected and often own their own business. It's much more common to see people having conversations that feel like they're between equals than it is to see those conversations at a traditional supermarket.
Interesting, I saw this as the opposite. Without the existence of centralized checkouts, retailers can craft totally different experiences for shoppers. It's in their best interests to keep shoppers in stores for longer. A great example is wine tastings at Whole Foods locations - it's clearly a social event within a grocery store.
I'd say there's going to be even _more_ opportunities for social interactions at grocery stores like Amazon Go.
To your point, though, the "marketplace" you're talking about is the ambiguity between the consumer and the worker, aka Marx's point about the commodity fetish. That's something that's existed since the late 1800's, though. I don't think that's going away anytime soon.
Although I can see something similar to a farmer's market run in the same format as Amazon Go. I haven't thought through all the edge cases yet, but it feels like a solvable problem.
I'd say there's going to be even _more_ opportunities for social interactions at grocery stores like Amazon Go.
To your point, though, the "marketplace" you're talking about is the ambiguity between the consumer and the worker, aka Marx's point about the commodity fetish. That's something that's existed since the late 1800's, though. I don't think that's going away anytime soon.
Although I can see something similar to a farmer's market run in the same format as Amazon Go. I haven't thought through all the edge cases yet, but it feels like a solvable problem.
There's always farmer's markets. And hardware stores, butcher shops, clothing stores, cafes, bars, and boutiques of all varieties.
In fact, I can't think of any staff I interact with less than a cashier at a convenience/grocery/big-box store. Except maybe toll workers, a job that is already becoming automated.
The place I interact with people the most is at a farmer's market by a large margin
In fact, I can't think of any staff I interact with less than a cashier at a convenience/grocery/big-box store. Except maybe toll workers, a job that is already becoming automated.
The place I interact with people the most is at a farmer's market by a large margin
Retail is not a place where you will find a "real social interaction".
I think the word is "provincial". Thanks for making that connection for me, that our lack of personal interaction is leading to the extremely polarized views we're witnessing. I almost feel like whoever finds a way to connect us all in real life without staring at a screen is going to make a billion dollars (and save the world or whatever).
I don't bother the opposite sex while shopping. But when it comes to just normal convo about good foods that me and another shopper are both buying, it's usually a short-lived "Isn't that ice cream awesome?! Hi five!." Nothing profound but I can see the positivity from even a small event of mutual love for the small things in life. :-)
I will admit though - Whole Foods and Trader Joes' employees are some of the nicest and down to earth people I've ever met. They definitely add to the experience of shopping.
But it appears that Amazon still has those type of people that will roam the store - just not cashiers. And they are probably a lot more grumpy and treated like crap, 'cuz Amazon.
I will admit though - Whole Foods and Trader Joes' employees are some of the nicest and down to earth people I've ever met. They definitely add to the experience of shopping.
But it appears that Amazon still has those type of people that will roam the store - just not cashiers. And they are probably a lot more grumpy and treated like crap, 'cuz Amazon.
It's funny to call them "down to earth", when they (especially TJ's) are performing a DisneyWorld-like entertainment role enforced by corporate leadership.
Maybe, maybe not. Less cashiers can mean more floor staff. Even at a place like Target, I need help now and then and the few floor staff are running around like crazy. And they already have self-checkout scanners.
Citation needed on the tribalism. 55 years ago the white tribe and the black tribe had separate schools. The percentage of Americans identifying as Christian is going down about a percent a year.
Yeah, marketplace is great for "interpersonal interaction", except for tourists or people unfamiliar with the societal norms of the market. In that case, they're often getting ripped off or slowing down the process for everyone. Not as relevant for supermarkets but I think the overall trend of seamless and transparent transactions make (almost) everyone's lives better off.
Most American tribalism is already geographic enough that forcing people to interact in shops won’t do anything to fix it.
[deleted]
How about freeing you to have the social interactions of your choice?
I think the standard HN reaction isn't to celebrate this, but rather to bemoan how technology takes us further from some non-existent utopian ideal where rose-tinted glasses replace reality. Like how "real social interaction" only exists at a supermarket checkout lane.
So your comment checks that box perfectly. Whining about the death of tradition is basically the "free" square in Hacker News Bingo.
So your comment checks that box perfectly. Whining about the death of tradition is basically the "free" square in Hacker News Bingo.
I love this - shows why Amazon keeps growing.
Seems like the total investment in this store/technology is probably in the single digit digit millions (or maybe low double digit).
If it doesn't work? Lose, ~$10 million. But if it works there's likely huge upside. It's just a smart bet for a big company. Sometimes your bets turn into AWS, and sometimes they turn into the Fire phone. Most companies I've worked at are very risk averse, and failure on startup type projects is not really accepted the same way.
The checkout system was the failed promise of RFID[1], and maybe the future is still with RFID. But maybe it's with vision, and if it is, then Amazon seems well positioned.
BTW, the rudimentary math I'm doing. Let's say the store saves two checkout people, working on average 20 hours a day for 365 days a year, who each average cost of $15/hr. $15/hr 20 hours365 days*2 people = $219k savings per year. How much does the system cost to setup in a new store? How much extra effort is there to keep food items organized? If you need someone checking IDs, managing errors, etc, is there really savings? Maybe the only way this really scales is if you can do this for full size stores?
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk
Seems like the total investment in this store/technology is probably in the single digit digit millions (or maybe low double digit).
If it doesn't work? Lose, ~$10 million. But if it works there's likely huge upside. It's just a smart bet for a big company. Sometimes your bets turn into AWS, and sometimes they turn into the Fire phone. Most companies I've worked at are very risk averse, and failure on startup type projects is not really accepted the same way.
The checkout system was the failed promise of RFID[1], and maybe the future is still with RFID. But maybe it's with vision, and if it is, then Amazon seems well positioned.
BTW, the rudimentary math I'm doing. Let's say the store saves two checkout people, working on average 20 hours a day for 365 days a year, who each average cost of $15/hr. $15/hr 20 hours365 days*2 people = $219k savings per year. How much does the system cost to setup in a new store? How much extra effort is there to keep food items organized? If you need someone checking IDs, managing errors, etc, is there really savings? Maybe the only way this really scales is if you can do this for full size stores?
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk
Bias note: I work at Amazon but I don't actually know anything or speak for Amazon. I'm guessing just as much as you are.
I knew people who left to go work on this project in I'm going to say early 2013. Lots of them. Assume Amazon put 100+ engineers on it, each probably making 200k/year in total comp. For five years. So that's a low ballpark of $100 million just for the engineer salaries. Now add in hardware, real estate, etc.
This was not a $10m project. But this is Amazon, where big investments in crazy ideas that might fail is normal. Just look at that friggin' Fire Phone.
Edit: and for the record, all those people who left to work on it were bastards and wouldn't tell us what they were building. Not even if you bought them beer.
I knew people who left to go work on this project in I'm going to say early 2013. Lots of them. Assume Amazon put 100+ engineers on it, each probably making 200k/year in total comp. For five years. So that's a low ballpark of $100 million just for the engineer salaries. Now add in hardware, real estate, etc.
This was not a $10m project. But this is Amazon, where big investments in crazy ideas that might fail is normal. Just look at that friggin' Fire Phone.
Edit: and for the record, all those people who left to work on it were bastards and wouldn't tell us what they were building. Not even if you bought them beer.
> Seems like the total investment in this store/technology is probably in the single digit digit millions (or maybe low double digit).
I honestly think you're underestimating this by an order of magnitude. Salaries, market research, prototype hardware for a project of this type in $10 million? Not a chance.
I honestly think you're underestimating this by an order of magnitude. Salaries, market research, prototype hardware for a project of this type in $10 million? Not a chance.
I always assumed the whole thing was mostly to demo the tech, which they will then sell to other retailers.
>Seems like the total investment in this store/technology is probably in the single digit digit millions (or maybe low double digit).
It was much more than that. They bought Whole Foods which was worth 13 billion.
It was much more than that. They bought Whole Foods which was worth 13 billion.
Anyone in NYC who regularly shops at Trader Joes or Whole Foods knows how badly this is needed. There are literally two employees at Trader Joes whose job it is to hold a sign that says "End of Line" because the line is always almost out the door on weekends and weekday evenings.
Why not use these people as cashiers?
I wonder if this endless line thing is something typical in the US. I've been to many European countries and other than before Christmas, you never feel like staying in line is something to even think of, because the longest you usually wait is maybe 5 minutes.
In Switzerland, now that in many shops you get to scan the cart yourself (after shopping or during it) there is just no congestion at all, even on a busy Saturday.
How is it in your countries?
I wonder if this endless line thing is something typical in the US. I've been to many European countries and other than before Christmas, you never feel like staying in line is something to even think of, because the longest you usually wait is maybe 5 minutes.
In Switzerland, now that in many shops you get to scan the cart yourself (after shopping or during it) there is just no congestion at all, even on a busy Saturday.
How is it in your countries?
Self scan lines tend to be filled with people incapable of the basic mechanics of using the technology. I prefer to use them. But if I see five people in the self scan line and ten in the normal line...I go for the longer line and am out the door in less time
Sometimes it's the machines. Walmart, I'm looking at you and your recent "upgrade" to what feels like an Electron app running in a VM on a raspberry pi. Button presses take whole seconds to register and loading a different page (e.g. payment or product code entry) takes tens of seconds. It's demoralizing.
I haven't been to Walmart in quite a while but their UX used to be horrible. They had buttons with white lettering and the button background used to cycle between light blue and white. Half the time you couldn't read what the button was for and the other half of the time it was difficult to make out.
Interesting.. Previously Walmart was the best for scanners in my opinion. It was instant had a clear notification the item was scanned without beeping.
It's off topic but I am annoyed that every device has to beep at me constantly
It's off topic but I am annoyed that every device has to beep at me constantly
To be fair this is mostly just a crazy nyc thing. I’ve never been to a Trader Joe’s elsewhere like the Trader Joe’s in NYC. They must be the top grossing stores by far. It’s always packed.
The Trader Joe’s at Fifth & Market is almost always packed. The line for the cashier ends up running through the aisles and it can take 15 minutes to see one of the 16 cashiers on duty. This, in a small-format store with no dedicated parking.
It's (obviously) a function of store design, staffing, and demand.
FWIW, in Basel (Switzerland) there are often large queues at the weekends/late evenings in the (only) two supermarkets which are open, despite self-checkouts. They are relatively small stores near the station, and serve very high demand driven by Switzerland's opening-time restrictions.
FWIW, in Basel (Switzerland) there are often large queues at the weekends/late evenings in the (only) two supermarkets which are open, despite self-checkouts. They are relatively small stores near the station, and serve very high demand driven by Switzerland's opening-time restrictions.
Trader Joes has a lot of urban stores. For example the one at Copley Square in Boston is in a basement across the street from a Tesla showroom. Its always busy, but there's no room to expand--even add an extra register. The farther you get out of the city center the wider the isles get.
Seattle area here. All my life I remember waiting in lines 10-20 minutes if you go to a store on a busy day (fri/sat/sun). It's just simple math sometimes where there's so many people with $400+ carts trying to check out and cashiers can only scan so fast. Everyone with medium or small sized carts have to wait in this.
I've seen great strides in recent years to advance self checkout technology and its user flow. Walmart is my favorite example of this, my local one having almost half of the area devoted to self checkout. It seems to have been successful for them so far. I don't see anyone having a hard time operate them and perhaps more surprising, it's filled me with the idea that I can pop in and out of a big store on a busy day to just buy 1 item.
I've seen great strides in recent years to advance self checkout technology and its user flow. Walmart is my favorite example of this, my local one having almost half of the area devoted to self checkout. It seems to have been successful for them so far. I don't see anyone having a hard time operate them and perhaps more surprising, it's filled me with the idea that I can pop in and out of a big store on a busy day to just buy 1 item.
> It's just simple math sometimes where there's so many people with $400+ carts trying to check out and cashiers can only scan so fast. Everyone with medium or small sized carts have to wait in this.
Why don't the customers scan the items themselves as they put them into their carts while at the shelves, rather than waiting until they get to the checkout? That's what we do where I live in the UK.
Why don't the customers scan the items themselves as they put them into their carts while at the shelves, rather than waiting until they get to the checkout? That's what we do where I live in the UK.
Stop n Shop in the NYC Tri-State area has this, but they are the only store that I've seen that does. I'd assume it has a technical barrier to implementation, and large-ish up front cost.
Some stores support this; most don’t.
In my experience, Walmart has the worst self checkout software however: poorly designed and laggy as heck. QFC/Safeway are much better, even Target (which is pretty bad itself) is better.
Wal-mart's big innovation in self-checkout that i'd love to see other stores adopt is the corral. Every other store seems to just let people line up in a free-for-all and the line gets long and starts to merge in with other lines and nobody's quite sure what they're lining up for. Then some narcissist thinks that despite the obvious crowd waiting to check out, they can start a "second line" that they'll be at the front of. And the stores see this crowd as a sales opportunity, so they randomly scatter product displays in the middle of where the line usually forms.
Wal-Mart has a nice cordoned-off maze to keep the line under control - a simple solution that works perfectly.
Wal-Mart has a nice cordoned-off maze to keep the line under control - a simple solution that works perfectly.
But won't someone please think of the poor, unemployed "end of line" sign holders? Whatever will they do!
Get some torches and pitchforks? Seriously, what do you think will happen when we have millions who lose their jobs due to automation?
Same thing that happened when manual switchboard operators lost their jobs to PBX, or manual typesetters lost their job to linotypes?
Same thing as been happening for the last 50 years as automation has vastly replaced human labor, without bringing about the revolution?
Or in other words, people will get a different job, and there will be winners and losers, but on AVERAGE everyone's lives will be way better (as has been proven for the last 50 years).
Or in other words, people will get a different job, and there will be winners and losers, but on AVERAGE everyone's lives will be way better (as has been proven for the last 50 years).
I avoid Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s because they are almost the only grocery stores without self checkout. Even Uwajimaya has self checkout now (ok H mart doesn’t, but they are rather quick anyways).
Trader Joe's NYC is cramped for space. It's unlikely Amazon's system would help, since it requires a lot more space to separate product SKUs.
"Amazon won’t say much about how the system works, other than to say it involves sophisticated computer vision and machine learning software." Why do I have the feeling this probably actually translates to humans staring at video feeds a lot of the time?
I imagine it's similar to the below video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeS8TJwBAFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeS8TJwBAFs
Jordan from Standard Cognition here (that's a video of our autonomous checkout system). From what we've read about Amazon it sounds like we're approaching things very differently. Amazon uses sensor fusion, including lots of non-vision sensors (floor sensors, shelf sensors, potentially RFID as a supplemental signal). We do everything from ceiling cameras, nothing else. That makes the system harder to build, but much easier to deploy to lots of existing stores. Amazon's solution requires a hefty remodeling.
Your comment intrigued me, so I found this article:
https://www.recode.net/2018/1/21/16913984/what-does-photos-a...
I don't think there can be any floor sensors there. There may be inventory-counting shelf sensors, I have no idea. There definitely isn't RFID. Looks like massive camera arrays in the ceiling.
https://www.recode.net/2018/1/21/16913984/what-does-photos-a...
I don't think there can be any floor sensors there. There may be inventory-counting shelf sensors, I have no idea. There definitely isn't RFID. Looks like massive camera arrays in the ceiling.
I wonder how resilient it is to real life shoppers who pick things, then put them back at the wrong place.
55 seconds in it does show them grabbing misplaced items, if that's what you mean.
Jordan from Standard Cognition here (that's a video of our autonomous checkout system). We don't depend on the shelf location an item came from. You can put things back anywhere you like and the system behaves just fine. It's one of the advantages of using a pure vision system as opposed to a sensor fusion approach with sensors on the shelves.
This video is fantastic. It seems to be ready for prime time. Ability to track objects with this high accuracy is a gamechanger
Even if this is the case, it gives them a more straightforward path to incrementally improving the automation behind the scenes without having any visible customer impact.
Heh I bet you’re right.
>“We’ve just put associates on different kinds of tasks where we think it adds to the customer experience,” Ms. Puerini said.
>“We’ve just put associates on different kinds of tasks where we think it adds to the customer experience,” Ms. Puerini said.
I thought they were going to use some kind of RFID system.
Using cameras and shelf sensors seem a little archaic for tracking retail purchases in real time. I wonder what happens when the store is extremely busy or people are taking things off shelves and putting them back.
Using cameras and shelf sensors seem a little archaic for tracking retail purchases in real time. I wonder what happens when the store is extremely busy or people are taking things off shelves and putting them back.
I wondered why we were still using barcodes in shops when you could do the checkout in one go with RFIDs. Turns out that the last time I checked, RFIDs are quite expensive, something like 10 cent a piece. A minor cost if you are selling electronics, but too expensive relative to the price of a chocolate bar.
Because YouTube just realised they have to exactly this to keep advertisers happy.
The "Our AI/ML technology is in Bangladesh" rollout
There is a company opening similar types of supermarkets and corner stores in China. But they have taken it a step further, there aren’t even any gates.
The experience feels really surreal... you just pick something off the shelf, scan it with the app, pay in the app (helped by the seamless mobile payment services in China), and walk out. The first time I tried it I couldn’t help finding an employee to show them I paid. The second time I just walked out after paying, but it actually felt uncomfortably like shoplifting (similar to what’s described in this article).
I presume the shops are set up as a sort of VC-funded experiment that will accept a high level of theft in return for a lot of useful data and early positioning in this type of retail.
The other interesting aspect is that the larger of the stores is set up very much as an experiential shopping environment, including a meat counter with chefs that will cook a steak or burger for you, and the same for sea food (you can buy shrimp or a lobster and they will cook it for you so you can eat it in the store, it is very popular).
I presume the shops are set up as a sort of VC-funded experiment that will accept a high level of theft in return for a lot of useful data and early positioning in this type of retail.
The other interesting aspect is that the larger of the stores is set up very much as an experiential shopping environment, including a meat counter with chefs that will cook a steak or burger for you, and the same for sea food (you can buy shrimp or a lobster and they will cook it for you so you can eat it in the store, it is very popular).
> But they have taken it a step further, there aren’t even any gates... scan it with the app
I consider that strictly inferior, not "one step forward." The genius of Amazon Go is that no scanning is involved. You just take things off the shelf and they're automatically charged to you as you walk out.
I consider that strictly inferior, not "one step forward." The genius of Amazon Go is that no scanning is involved. You just take things off the shelf and they're automatically charged to you as you walk out.
That’s true, though one advantage for the consumer is that at least you get a chance to confirm that you really did want to take that $40 lobster ;)
For the store an advantage is saving space, the Chinese ones are in really expensive prime real estate areas.
You get to confirm it before checking out, there's an app listing items added to the shopping cart.
They also have this at most (all?) Apple stores in the US. You can scan and pay with the Apple Store app on your device and walk out, no fuss. It did feel amazing the first time I did it.
However, the Amazon Go solution is even more seamless, more quick, and more natural.
However, the Amazon Go solution is even more seamless, more quick, and more natural.
Techcrunch article with additional technical details: https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/21/inside-amazons-surveillanc...
> ordinary RGB cameras, custom made with boards in the enclosure to do some basic grunt computer vision work, presumably things like motion detection, basic object identification, and so on. They’re augmented by separate depth-sensing cameras (using a time-of-flight technique, or so I understood from Kumar) that blend into the background like the rest, all matte black. The images captured from these cameras are sent to a central processing unit.
> In addition to the cameras, there are weight sensors in the shelves, and the system is aware of every item’s exact weight
> ordinary RGB cameras, custom made with boards in the enclosure to do some basic grunt computer vision work, presumably things like motion detection, basic object identification, and so on. They’re augmented by separate depth-sensing cameras (using a time-of-flight technique, or so I understood from Kumar) that blend into the background like the rest, all matte black. The images captured from these cameras are sent to a central processing unit.
> In addition to the cameras, there are weight sensors in the shelves, and the system is aware of every item’s exact weight
Imagine when Amazon sells this system to Palantir and police departments for use all over town.
And does what with it?
Am I the only one living in a country where most stores have self-checkout already? The comments here make it sound like it's either Amazon Go or having to pay through a cashier.
Jobs and social interaction have already been elminated by self-checkout. The revolution with Amazon Go is that you don't need to scan anything yourself, not that it removes the cashier.
Jobs and social interaction have already been elminated by self-checkout. The revolution with Amazon Go is that you don't need to scan anything yourself, not that it removes the cashier.
I'll note that many Whole Foods stores, which Amazon now owns, got rid of all of their self checkout lanes about a year or so ago.
My guess is that there was a much larger amount of loss at self-checkouts, especially given the amount of produce WF sells (e.g. I bet you would see the ratio of organic to conventional sales much lower at self-checkout lanes)
My guess is that there was a much larger amount of loss at self-checkouts, especially given the amount of produce WF sells (e.g. I bet you would see the ratio of organic to conventional sales much lower at self-checkout lanes)
Many stores in the USA already have self checkout, and have had it for a decade or so. Go just eliminates the checkout process all together.
Maybe I'm weird, but I enjoy self checkout line. Picking up each item, looking for barcode, scanning it, and bagging, is kind of fun activity to do every once in awhile. The only lame part is, "please place the item in the bag" mechanism.
I kind of agree, I try to even make a mini game out of seeing how fast I can checkout.
I agree. I strongly prefer it to the regular checkout counter, even when the latter is completely free. I've even memorized that bananas are 4011.
Switching bags, finding barcodes and placing the goods at right angle so it can be scanned, all of these makes me feel like being trained for unnecessary skills, it's repetitive and time consuming, thus incredibly annoying. Sometimes things went wrong, I had to ask for assistance (yeah, more interactions please.) I just stood there like I'm a 70-year-old man who isn't good at interacting with computers (well hello?), watching the assistant guy input the barcode number manually. After all that, I had to do the whole card payment process myself, while people stared at me waiting for free self checkout slot. Ugh!
> finding barcodes and placing the goods at right angle so it can be scanned
You should do that anyway to help out the cashier. It's common courtesy. Amazon Go obviously gets rid of it though.
You should do that anyway to help out the cashier. It's common courtesy. Amazon Go obviously gets rid of it though.
> You should do that anyway to help out the cashier. It's common courtesy.
O_O
To be honest, I've never done that, and I'm surprised that It's common courtesy. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I had a chance to help the cashier to find the barcode. What I do myself is placing items on the conveyor belt, putting items into the bags after checkout. Was I being impolite? What's the cashier's job then? Pressing the scan button...?
O_O
To be honest, I've never done that, and I'm surprised that It's common courtesy. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I had a chance to help the cashier to find the barcode. What I do myself is placing items on the conveyor belt, putting items into the bags after checkout. Was I being impolite? What's the cashier's job then? Pressing the scan button...?
It might be courtesy, but it's certainly not "common." Times like these are where I feel like half of HN must be from a totally different planet. Searching out barcodes is fun and common? What?
In my country there are signs in every store at the conveyor belt saying "turn the bar code toward you", i.e. so that the it lines up with the scanner.
Plus Amazon Go eliminates the payment process. When you think how much time you lost by scanning every item and paying via cash or credit card. Amazon Go is much more easier and quicker.
Contactless payments take less than 5 seconds. For 5-10 items, I can scan and pay in less than a minute. And that without being registered for that store.
It's not about self checkout, its about no checkout. I get really irritated when stores try to outsource their work to me. If I'm going to be scanning items myself, they better pay me for it. Ditto with restaurants expecting me to clean their table up after eating.
My point was that most of the comments focus on stuff that is already a "problem" with self-checkout (jobs, social interaction) and is not exclusive to Amazon Go.
When I installed the app it mentions you can let others buy stuff from your account with a single phone on entry(kids, friend, etc). There is an animation that shows you tap your phone in, send your friend in, then re-tap yourself in.
Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, and I thought it was kinda neat.
Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, and I thought it was kinda neat.
Kind of confirms what I'd always thought, that they'd associate a face/person with an account/shopping basket then track that through the rest of the store instead of doing any phone based tracking.
No shopping carts? Maybe for a convenience store that's ok. I shop at Costco without a car, and I bring two large carry bags. But I don't carry them around inside the store unless I'm just buying one or two things. I buy a lot of heavy things (oh god those watermelons, never again.) And I don't want my arms getting tired in the store. It's bad enough for the 1.5km I have to walk back to my place.
It’s an urban small market not a wholesale store.
There’s not enough space for shopping carts to make sense.
For the first time in history we have a grocery store without cashiers, and you’re nitpicking that there’s no shopping carts?
What does one thing have to do with the other? Shopping carts are useful even without cashiers.
Without carts your customers can only purchase as many items as they can physically carry. As the business owner, you are of course free to not provide any, if you hate profit.
Why should something new be immune from constructive criticism?
not entirely serious, but not entirely joking: in a world where all stores are like this; you drop your phone and it smashes, can you still buy food?
(what about people without phones?)
(what about people without phones?)
That sounds like a premise for the next black mirror episode.. though they will make it a lot more scarier!
This is totally a real problem. I just celebrated my grandmother's 90th birthday. She still lives independently and regularly goes shopping. She doesn't own a mobile phone, let alone a smart phone.
In a world where services that require phones are dominant, choice narrows for elderly and low income persons.
In a world where services that require phones are dominant, choice narrows for elderly and low income persons.
There's a lot of ways around the broken/lost/phone-less populations in a system like this. The phone doesn't really do any more than provide the initial authentication and receipt delivery. If these really took off and started replacing normal systems it'd be really easy to add a receipt printer and to add a card reader for a 'members card' that does the same thing as the QR code on the phone.
Old people were never going to use this service anyway and already don't use self checkouts. But that's a small population that is only shrinking.
AFAICT, the only role your phone plays is to display a some sort of QR code to a reader when you enter the shop, after which you can literally put your phone into airplane mode and it wouldn't matter. I don't see why you couldn't just as easily punch in a code, swipe a card, or just show your face to a camera upon entering.
[edit] I don't think that's how Amazon implements it at the moment; it just doesn't seem like there's an inherent limitation in the technology that would require customers to have phones. It's just that it's only open to Amazon employees at the moment, so pretty much every "customer" is guaranteed to have a phone.
[edit] I don't think that's how Amazon implements it at the moment; it just doesn't seem like there's an inherent limitation in the technology that would require customers to have phones. It's just that it's only open to Amazon employees at the moment, so pretty much every "customer" is guaranteed to have a phone.
I don't think we're that far away from not even needing the phone at all - it might actually be a "privacy feature", ie: give you the illusion that they don't know already who you are.
Jordan from Standard Cognition here (we're building a competing autonomous checkout system).
Not having a phone is definitely a big worry. Not all people even have a smart phone, even in the US, and of the people that do a lot don't have credit cards. One feature we're working on is a fully anonymous and phone-free checkout process if you don't have a phone. You walk up to a kiosk that tells you what you have and then you just insert your cash.
Not having a phone is definitely a big worry. Not all people even have a smart phone, even in the US, and of the people that do a lot don't have credit cards. One feature we're working on is a fully anonymous and phone-free checkout process if you don't have a phone. You walk up to a kiosk that tells you what you have and then you just insert your cash.
You need an Amazon account just to get in the door. I imagine the group of people with Amazon accounts and without cellphones is small enough to ignore.
It looks like you need to scan in on the way into the shop. If your phone runs out of the battery, is it impossible to eat?
Maybe a physical barcode card combined with some kind of biometric (thumbprint, faceID, microbiome biopsy) could form an "offline" backup authentication.
Attacks I'd like to try but would get picked up by the cops if I did:
- Carry empty bags/containers of cheaper items in the store and place products inside these before pulling them off of the shelf.
- Pull products off of the shelf and give them to a friend. Place identical empty bags/containers back to re-credit your account while your friend never has the item debited and walks out.
- Drape a blanket over yourself and remove products from the shelf and put them in your bags so the system never sees items removed from the shelf
- Carry empty bags/containers of cheaper items in the store and place products inside these before pulling them off of the shelf.
- Pull products off of the shelf and give them to a friend. Place identical empty bags/containers back to re-credit your account while your friend never has the item debited and walks out.
- Drape a blanket over yourself and remove products from the shelf and put them in your bags so the system never sees items removed from the shelf
Amazon has had this store open for employees to use for some time. Think of that time as a massive bug bash hacking project where really smart people are encouraged to try to find ways to wreak havoc with the system. There are undoubtedly attacks still to find but Amazon is definitely not being clueless about this.
>There are undoubtedly attacks still to find but Amazon is definitely not being clueless about this.
They likely have people watching the cameras full-time and will just report you to the cops if they see sleight-of-hand, now with identification and an address since you have to show your Amazon account when walking in. This is probably forever tenable to the bottom line since they're eliminating cashiers and security folks aren't paid that much more than cashiers anyway.
There's also probably a healthy amount of resolution and numerous camera angles that it'll be impossible for your face to not be picked up. Even using a fake account, you're still likely to have something Amazon-related installed on your phone that can be traced back to a telecom account.
And really, none the effort to avoid getting caught/traced is worth it to steal some bags of chips.
They likely have people watching the cameras full-time and will just report you to the cops if they see sleight-of-hand, now with identification and an address since you have to show your Amazon account when walking in. This is probably forever tenable to the bottom line since they're eliminating cashiers and security folks aren't paid that much more than cashiers anyway.
There's also probably a healthy amount of resolution and numerous camera angles that it'll be impossible for your face to not be picked up. Even using a fake account, you're still likely to have something Amazon-related installed on your phone that can be traced back to a telecom account.
And really, none the effort to avoid getting caught/traced is worth it to steal some bags of chips.
> will just report you to the cops if they see sleight-of-hand
Why? Just add it to the order.
Why? Just add it to the order.
And when you try to cancel your Amazon Prime subscription: Hey, remember that time when you tried placing an item under your coat (video link)?
Subscribe for a year now, or your shoplifting videos get sent to everyone on your Family Account...
Just play it as a pre-roll to the next video they watch.
Do you have inside knowledge of how the system tracks shoppers? Why does it need to see your face?
Just save your containers from your last visit, bring them with you in your shopping bags, pull an item off the shelf and replace it with an empty container from your bag so that it looks like you changed your mind.
That's a store selling food for public consumption. Stocking the shelves with old containers seems like it might carry some health risk? Or Amazon might not be very happy about what you are doing to the image of their store (and they'll know who you are because of the cameras.) Seems like a big risk to take to save a few dollars on lunch.
You'd have to fill the containers to weight-match the sensors
A similar attack at a normal grocery store is to grab an item off a shelf and walk out the door. Another attack is, if an employee asks you to stop and show your receipt, just keep walking.
But yeah, the cops tend to frown on shoplifting. It's actually a crime in many places, believe it or not.
But yeah, the cops tend to frown on shoplifting. It's actually a crime in many places, believe it or not.
I'm sure there are lots of clever ways to trick the system, but do you really want to try that when you're under constant and ubiquitous surveillance and you had to reveal your name, address, and credit card number to enter the store?
I haven’t the foggiest about the first two, but I’m going to guess that one of the workers would notice you cover yourself up with a blanket.
Welllll. Now that idea for a Smart Shopping Cart that I drew up 10 years is completely obsolete hahaha.
Like it or not, this Amazon Go store is a model for all future brick and mortar establishments. In 20 years we will recall the good old days when we waited in line and used cash much like people look back at the time when people sent cards and letters before email.
Like it or not, this Amazon Go store is a model for all future brick and mortar establishments. In 20 years we will recall the good old days when we waited in line and used cash much like people look back at the time when people sent cards and letters before email.
The smart-cart seeems a much simpler, cheaper solution than the smart-store, doesn't it? Scanning cart items is trivial in comparison to tracking objects moving through the whole store
Yes, they also eliminate edge cases like customer taking item from shelf A and putting it back on Shelf B. Also they are easily deployable in any stores without putting in lots of cameras all over.
I haven't seen anyone discuss the technology...can this really be reliable? It mentions cameras above the shop floor and machine learning. What do the cameras look for? Are there special visual markets on the products to make this task more robust? If not, there surely must be caveats?
Are RFID tags not a more elegant solution? Or are they too expensive?
Are RFID tags not a more elegant solution? Or are they too expensive?
RFID tags have a lot of problems among them that unless you get every manufacturer on board for labeling all the products in your store you're going to have to spend a lot of time labeling products before shelving. It's also a continuous cost per item either from the manufacturer or from the in house labeling process where a static system like Amazon Go can track without adding a per item cost. It's also not good enough to be the only system in a store because it's easy to block the signal using a foil lined bag so the store will already need another system at least as good as RFID at tracking things coming off the shelves.
As for what they look for that's the secret sauce but there's a few things that are pretty clear from descriptions. They seem to be using mainly (only?) cameras for the identification. Luckily branding is pretty prominent so they have a pretty convenient thing for their item labeling to look for in the feeds. For cart shopping there's some simple things like tracking people with their faces from when they enter then adding items to their cart when they move an item outside a defined shelf region.
As for what they look for that's the secret sauce but there's a few things that are pretty clear from descriptions. They seem to be using mainly (only?) cameras for the identification. Luckily branding is pretty prominent so they have a pretty convenient thing for their item labeling to look for in the feeds. For cart shopping there's some simple things like tracking people with their faces from when they enter then adding items to their cart when they move an item outside a defined shelf region.
[deleted]
Wondering if the grand opening will lead to a spontaneous HN and Deep Neural Nets meetup at Top Pot Donuts on 5th tomorrow.
I wonder what would happen if you reached through a gap in the products (perhaps one is a big seller and the shelf location is empty) and pulled an item from the back of the next product's location. Like - reaching where the strawberry Pop-Tarts are normally stocked, to remove a box of the cinnamon flavored. (Why would you do this? Normally the older product is on the front of the shelf so it gets sold first)
Your hand would be out of view of the ceiling-mounted cameras so it can't see directly (covered up by the shelf above). Your arm would be in the strawberry opening but you'd pull out a cinnamon. Is it's vision system good enough to tell the difference from the packaging, or does it just go off position when you pull it off the shelf?
Your hand would be out of view of the ceiling-mounted cameras so it can't see directly (covered up by the shelf above). Your arm would be in the strawberry opening but you'd pull out a cinnamon. Is it's vision system good enough to tell the difference from the packaging, or does it just go off position when you pull it off the shelf?
[deleted]
There were a little over 3.5 million cashiers in the United States in 2016 — and some of their jobs may be in jeopardy if the technology behind Amazon Go eventually spreads.
Why is this the knee-jerk response to technological progress?
True progress isn't forcing millions of people into low-wage routine work. True progress would emancipate people from this drudgery entirely.
Isaac Asimov questioned why the goal of both the left and the right is always "full employment":
"The goal of the future should be full unemployment, so we can play. That’s why we have to destroy the present politico-economic system."
Why is this the knee-jerk response to technological progress?
True progress isn't forcing millions of people into low-wage routine work. True progress would emancipate people from this drudgery entirely.
Isaac Asimov questioned why the goal of both the left and the right is always "full employment":
"The goal of the future should be full unemployment, so we can play. That’s why we have to destroy the present politico-economic system."
It is because we have no scalable mechanism in society to provide for the basic needs of the "emancipated." Sure, in theory the automation yields a surplus, but in practice how do we actually allocate the surplus? Not to the economically useless, that's for sure.
What do you mean? There’s a lot of work on this by various economists, including modern socialists like Picketty. The big ideas are distributing ownership of things (goods, land, means of production), capital, and education in a way that is fair (definitions vary) and doesn’t disincentivize production.
It's easy to come up with ideas, it's nearly impossible to muster the political capital to actually try them.
Because the politico-economic system Asimov referred to is still intact. Our society does not use technological advances to emancipate the general populace.
It would be amazing if McDonalds fully automated their stores and allowed their current employees to work one day a week for the same pay they receive now, but we both know that's not how it would work out.
It would be amazing if McDonalds fully automated their stores and allowed their current employees to work one day a week for the same pay they receive now, but we both know that's not how it would work out.
>> Because the politico-economic system Asimov referred to is still intact.
And it always will be until there is stimulus to change. Government - large systems in general - don't change the other way.
And it always will be until there is stimulus to change. Government - large systems in general - don't change the other way.
How would they hire future employees they don’t need to replace the current ones that don’t work?
Workers whose jobs we have automated did not become "emancipated."
They were completely forgotten by society, government, and the private enterprise as the spoils went to the top 20%.
What about this particular shearing indicates a difference in the way "progress" is made?
They were completely forgotten by society, government, and the private enterprise as the spoils went to the top 20%.
What about this particular shearing indicates a difference in the way "progress" is made?
Well once those jobs are lost, then everyone is looking to retrain in the few industries which still have jobs. But then that creates massive labour which drops the cost of labour down to poverty. Another downward spiral. Universities will probably stop offering degrees in things like accounting pretty soon as there will be very little use for accounting degrees.
>Why is this the knee-jerk response of many journalists in response to technological progress?
Maybe because our society isn’t ready for such changes. The American system especially lacks safety nets and social security systems to support those without a job. The way things are now is that one needs to have a job to be able to “play”.
One solution would be to tax the robots that replace the working class. Otherwise the only ones to gain are the ones who own the robots.
Maybe because our society isn’t ready for such changes. The American system especially lacks safety nets and social security systems to support those without a job. The way things are now is that one needs to have a job to be able to “play”.
One solution would be to tax the robots that replace the working class. Otherwise the only ones to gain are the ones who own the robots.
> Maybe because our society isn’t ready for such changes.
Our society has been killing jobs with automation for the past 150 years or so. Think of all the jobs that don’t exist anymore because of your fridge, dishwasher, washing machine, car, etc. Before alarm clocks, people used to get paid to go yell in front of your house for 10 minutes until you got up. Before cars, there were tons of people living off horses as a transportation medium. Before automatic doors in the trains there was one employee in each coach to close them. Pretty much every complex object you touch nowadays has killed jobs when it first appeared.
Our society has been killing jobs with automation for the past 150 years or so. Think of all the jobs that don’t exist anymore because of your fridge, dishwasher, washing machine, car, etc. Before alarm clocks, people used to get paid to go yell in front of your house for 10 minutes until you got up. Before cars, there were tons of people living off horses as a transportation medium. Before automatic doors in the trains there was one employee in each coach to close them. Pretty much every complex object you touch nowadays has killed jobs when it first appeared.
Except this only works if we can flip a switch at some point in time to automate everything. Otherwise people will still have to work maintaining robots, building new robots, or working on the technology that powers the robots.
So, now when people are all out there 'playing', the ones enabling the playing still have to work. Good luck encouraging people that is a good idea, when they could just quit and go play themselves.
So, now when people are all out there 'playing', the ones enabling the playing still have to work. Good luck encouraging people that is a good idea, when they could just quit and go play themselves.
> Why is this the knee-jerk response to technological progress?
because people lose jobs and then they elect people who promise to bring back jobs.
because people lose jobs and then they elect people who promise to bring back jobs.
Loved this comment. What does real progress look like? Paradigm-shifts take a lot of time to happen but need to start somewhere.
> True progress would emancipate people from this drudgery entirely.
This sounds like a "Let them eat cake" response. What do you propose is the solution then for giving these people a viable lifestyle if they don't have any competitive skills? A lot of potential ideas, like basic income, have been discussed on HN, but this should be considered a pretty scary problem because there aren't any immediately obvious solutions.
This sounds like a "Let them eat cake" response. What do you propose is the solution then for giving these people a viable lifestyle if they don't have any competitive skills? A lot of potential ideas, like basic income, have been discussed on HN, but this should be considered a pretty scary problem because there aren't any immediately obvious solutions.
The economic system is a cycle. What is produced is then consumed. It is consumed by using the same money which is paid for its production. Without that cycle of production and consumption the system is short circuited. In that you have products, but no logical way to distribute them and therefore no reason for their production. Therefore consumption drops and less products are demanded by the system. Therefore less labour is used and required. That's a downward spiral of employment the end result of which is that only things which are necessary are produced like clothing, food, and shelter and only enough money is in the system to provide those things. The only way to "fix" this is to short circuit the system again and provide money to people who have not earned it so they may buy goods. But how do you decide how much money everyone is entitled to so that social classes exist? You don't. Everyone is the same, so everyone is pretty much low class barely making more than poverty. Like for instance if you do this globally, everyone would be living in poverty as there isn't that money money or products to go around to make everyone rich. There is simply not that much money in the system meaning that there isn't that much production to make everyone rich.
How about a future where the masses live like Amish, but with more free time. Sure you can play... but exactly what does that mean is a different question. I imagine housing developments in rural areas that cost very little and very little economic activity takes place there. Like for instance say small houses for 1 or 2 people for $25k in the middle of nowhere which you can support on your 20k minimum income. Place provides very few municipal services as well to keep the costs down.
How about a future where the masses live like Amish, but with more free time. Sure you can play... but exactly what does that mean is a different question. I imagine housing developments in rural areas that cost very little and very little economic activity takes place there. Like for instance say small houses for 1 or 2 people for $25k in the middle of nowhere which you can support on your 20k minimum income. Place provides very few municipal services as well to keep the costs down.
Because to both customers and employees of grocery stores, this doesn’t seem like “technological progress”; I think it’s unclear if this experience is better.
But it’s certainly being viewed as a costsaving measure by Amazon.
But it’s certainly being viewed as a costsaving measure by Amazon.
I hope you're not assuming that everybody is in agreement with this questionable proposition. 'Destroy' sounds like a call to battle given the world as it is.
I used it a few times a few months ago, amazingly cool technology. Closest feeling to magic I’ve seen recently.
Next level magic: you enter the shop and a little robot hands you a bag with what you were going to buy anyway.
Given Amazon's knowledge in warehouse operations and supply chain, I wouldn't guess they plan to use this technology widespread in grocery stores. At that point, they could take a simpler approach than all the cameras and computer vision, by instead treating a grocery store like a warehouse or vending machine (no human shoppers like other grocers today who offer delivery). People enter their orders online, and stop by in person to collect their cart at the front desk. All the food would be behind closed doors. Only downside to that is customers who want to leisure shop and browse for new items.
I don’t see this being viable. Most people shop with at least a small amount of whimsy. This is why end-caps and samples and grocery store psychology exist. And I think this is a feature, not a bug: there is something satisfying about picking out the right bananas, realizing Brussels sprouts would go well with dinner, substituting ingredients on the fly, etc.
the online shopping experience has none of this, which is why I think grocery delivery has not yet taken over. Food is visual and visceral, and doesn’t lend itself to drop-down menus.
the online shopping experience has none of this, which is why I think grocery delivery has not yet taken over. Food is visual and visceral, and doesn’t lend itself to drop-down menus.
The whole store is designed for you to run back and forth finding and discovering items.
They are testing that in Seattle as well.
https://www.amazon.com/afx/nc/aboutpickup
https://www.amazon.com/afx/nc/aboutpickup
That will probably be an option, but I'd wager that a lot of purchases are snap decisions. You want hungry people in your store, looking at all your attractively packaged food.
Amazon sort of does that with freshly. Same with instacart
this seem like really backward thinking, the future is to eliminate visiting shop, not simplifying checkout process
I don't want to step in shop at all, I want my grocery delivered to my door and the delivery guy/drone can on the way out throw my trash. I was doing this in China (it helps to live in city with concentration of 20 million people), they even offer the throwing trash service though didn't went further into that step
I don't want to step in shop at all, I want my grocery delivered to my door and the delivery guy/drone can on the way out throw my trash. I was doing this in China (it helps to live in city with concentration of 20 million people), they even offer the throwing trash service though didn't went further into that step
Interesting. Though I would expect that it would be at least a decade or two before this reaches other countries outside of the US.
Less human interaction, less discomfort, easier to spend money faster. Sounds so wonderful! /s
Next step in operation Foie gras: Amazon connects a tube to your mouth and pushes corn through it, automatically deducting the cost from your credit card. Totally effortless shopping
No paywall: https://outline.com/KhsPDb
Can’t wait to try this experience. I will be flying up to go see it myself and purchase a few things.
Get ready for some insanity in the next decade as this tech is adopted by walmart. https://i.redd.it/shbv27xwmzoy.png
The innovation in rethinking the convenience store is not only in the technology, but also the fact that they're likely going to not sell nasty gas station snacks.
The latter point isn't an innovation. My local grocery store (not a big franchise) doesn't sell nasty snacks, either. They've been in business a lot longer than Amazon.
The innovation part is how this Go store has the power to bring healthy snacks into general convenience stores and gas stations and getting the disease causing ones to be pushed out.
Why are you patting Amazon so hard on the back over this hypothesis? The article didn't mention anything about it; Walmart, Target, 7-11 all have the exact same power, but don't exercise it. Why do you think Amazon Go will push healthy snacks over deep-fried candybars?
Huh? Amazon Go is a separate store from these places. There is nothing mentioned about how they're licensing their technology out to other vendors. And it's not innovating by offering healthier options for grab 'n go food and snacks. I don't see your point here.
HN stop supporting sites that block information with paywalls
So no subscriptions, no anti-AdBlock...I guess that leaves us Buzzfeed journalism for free?
The HN policy on paywalled articles in general is clear. 'dang has commented specifically on the NY Times as well.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16003345
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16003345
No shopping carts? If that's not a signal that this is, at best, half-baked, I don't know what is.
I've noticed several grocery stores in the largest cities I've been in (Shanghai and Tokyo) lack carts both due to space constraints and because people visit on their way home either to or from the train station. Shopping carts are mostly necessary/convenient in suburban environments where you have to drive to bigbox stores because you live too far away.
Judging by the area of the city that Amazon Go is in and the ubiquitous housing nearby. I suspect this is the model they're going for.
Judging by the area of the city that Amazon Go is in and the ubiquitous housing nearby. I suspect this is the model they're going for.
If we're clever enough to empower people to be responsible to shop without human oversight to charge, why don't we stop including money in the transaction and instead of shopping, we're just taking what we need?
I dont understand what the role of money is in this situation if its taken to its logical conclusion. I bet Jeff Buysus wants to keep it there, however..
I dont understand what the role of money is in this situation if its taken to its logical conclusion. I bet Jeff Buysus wants to keep it there, however..
galaxy brain
That is terrible. Not only it takes away jobs, it also gives Amazon the unprecedented access to the sensitive information about customers. I would never go to this store. Fortunately something like this will never happen in our beautiful Europe.
It definitely will. Self-checkout is widely available in Europe. The laws about data and privacy will be different but this is a customer experience / labor cost play, not a ploy to get data.
Self checkout is a way different from thousands of video cameras that track all your moves, selection habits, etc.
There's a pretty good chance that stores in Europe have video cameras already there tracking where customers move, what they look at, what expressions are on their face when they read signs, etc...
I highly doubt so. The data privacy laws are pretty strict here.
You mean like widespread CCTV? I'm not sure how common it is outside of the UK but there's at least parts of Europe that have put security ahead of privacy as a norm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...
It's a brilliant system and doesn't require hundreds of cameras and machine learning.