Everyone Else Is Trash(theplayerstribune.com)
theplayerstribune.com
Everyone Else Is Trash
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/doublelift-league-of-legends-everyone-else-is-trash/
54 comments
I wouldn't get too carried away.
During the height of the Texas Hold 'Em boom a decade ago, "Poker" was one of the top-level nav items on ESPN's website ("WWE" is one today).
As another comment reply has already alluded to, chess was frequently labeled a sport during its heyday in the years between Bobby Fischer and Garry Kasparov.
What is a "sport"? Any form of competition that makes money from spectators, and from which writers can make money writing about. Period. It fluctuates over time, often quite rapidly.
During the height of the Texas Hold 'Em boom a decade ago, "Poker" was one of the top-level nav items on ESPN's website ("WWE" is one today).
As another comment reply has already alluded to, chess was frequently labeled a sport during its heyday in the years between Bobby Fischer and Garry Kasparov.
What is a "sport"? Any form of competition that makes money from spectators, and from which writers can make money writing about. Period. It fluctuates over time, often quite rapidly.
Companies like Riot and Blizzard also spend lots of money to support today's e-sports scene. While Starcraft: Brood War was always a "very artificial" e-sport in the West, it was a real e-sport in Korea, where broadcasting companies were willing to spend money promoting it.
It's the short-term nature of them I don't get. Football would suck if the top athletes were playing entirely different games in five years and leagues around existing sports were gone after twenty. The market need (perceived or real) for major publishers to replace their games every few years diminishes how seriously I can take them as competitive endeavors. It's fun watching greats like Brady and comparing them to other greats, and if I couldn't recall the greatness of the Cowboys from 20 or 40 years ago and use them as a measuring stick, it would be much less interesting as a fan.
Overwatch will probably be dead in ten years as a "sport". It's even more jarring with games that come out every year. There's really no reason for players to get professionally good at Battlefield 3 (Madden 14) if Battlefield 4 (Madden 17) is the same game but not. It's also less interesting as a fan.
Overwatch will probably be dead in ten years as a "sport". It's even more jarring with games that come out every year. There's really no reason for players to get professionally good at Battlefield 3 (Madden 14) if Battlefield 4 (Madden 17) is the same game but not. It's also less interesting as a fan.
Games like league rely on micro transactions and merchandising to make money, additionally a new patch roles out every 14 days keeping the game fresh. Riot has 0 incentive to make LoL2: electric bugaloo.
Imagine if the NFL changed rules every two weeks to keep things fresh. People get pissed off at good (or bad) tweaks to CS:GO and those tweaks can make for very different games. Riot still has an incentive to make money short term over building something that will be around in twenty years. Unsolvable? Maybe. But whatever Riot is working on now won't be what they are in five years.
I guess what drove that statement was the StarCraft -> StarCraft 2 transition, both of which are shadows of their former selves because the business model of a game publisher is not that of a sports league. They have conflicting needs.
I guess what drove that statement was the StarCraft -> StarCraft 2 transition, both of which are shadows of their former selves because the business model of a game publisher is not that of a sports league. They have conflicting needs.
Can confirm the rule changes are a pain. Ex dota 2 player and I tried to watch some games recently after a few years break. I couldn't really follow what was happening. The map was different, new items, heroes. Existing items and heroes all different in assorted ways.
I felt like Grandpa Simpson: "I used to be with it but then they changed what it was."
Frequent tweaking might be great for active players but I think it will be a pretty big block to ever allowing esports to compete as a casual viewing event alongside regular sports.
I felt like Grandpa Simpson: "I used to be with it but then they changed what it was."
Frequent tweaking might be great for active players but I think it will be a pretty big block to ever allowing esports to compete as a casual viewing event alongside regular sports.
[deleted]
You can look at Super Smash Bros Melee for a game that has a competitive scene that has lasted a long time. It's more popular than ever at the moment with no updates or patches.
Even there the meta game is constantly evolving, look at the rise in popularity of shield dropping, I haven't been in that scene in a while but I was around it long enough to realize that there was an ever evolving meta-game. There's that entire joke in the community about the post-apocalyptic universe of 20xx [0] where the game has devolved into a rock paper scissors meta game for port priority. Additionally new rules do emerge in the scene, is chain grabbing ICs okay? what about Onett? etc. These serve to keep the game fresh by introducing a variance of popular strategy. This is what the semi weekly patches do in LoL. They keep the meta ever changing and even if you get out of the game the meta game is nominally important for spectators because the casters will pretty much explain it to you as the game goes on.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1qixpa/the_year_...
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1qixpa/the_year_...
>artificial esports like starcraft 2
So chess isnt a sport?
So chess isnt a sport?
It’s a sport in the same way that a tomato is a vegetable; by some definitions it is, by others it isn’t. What annoys me is that videogames have a chance to be themselves without glomming onto “sports” like chess and other games. Chess doesn’t need to be called a sport to be worthwhile and respectable, and neither do videogames.
For the sake of money and “mindshare” though? Chess and Starcraft are sports, and tomatoes are veggies.
For the sake of money and “mindshare” though? Chess and Starcraft are sports, and tomatoes are veggies.
Theres a set of defined rules where outcome is exclusively impacted by the participants alone, no chance.
The better player wins.
It is a sport
The better player wins.
It is a sport
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sport
You seem to have invented criteria with meaning to you, but that’s all. Then again, people have decided that tomatoes are vegetables, and that’s fine I guess. Mostly though it just seems that “sport” has a certain cache and “not a sport” is often used in a derogatory manner, which is a shame. A lot of people seem to have accepted the notion that the only skillful, valuable forms of competition are sports, and their language reflects that.
ESPN has a much simpler definition based on a, “can we make some money here?” test. For me? I’m not a fan of most popular sports, but I do love games. I don’t see the need to butcher the language for the sake of broad acceptance, or a buck.
You seem to have invented criteria with meaning to you, but that’s all. Then again, people have decided that tomatoes are vegetables, and that’s fine I guess. Mostly though it just seems that “sport” has a certain cache and “not a sport” is often used in a derogatory manner, which is a shame. A lot of people seem to have accepted the notion that the only skillful, valuable forms of competition are sports, and their language reflects that.
ESPN has a much simpler definition based on a, “can we make some money here?” test. For me? I’m not a fan of most popular sports, but I do love games. I don’t see the need to butcher the language for the sake of broad acceptance, or a buck.
Brood War is the only true eSport. It reached levels of success that most eSports could only dream of, including having two+ television channels dedicated to it. With Brood War, even non-players could watch and follow along, but League, DotA, Overwatch, etc draw their viewers from the massive playerbases that they enjoy. It's impossible to understand at anything but the lowest level what is happening in a MOBA unless you are a devout follower of the game. I say all of this as a long time player of DotA (1,000+ hours) and CS:GO (250+ hours)
Yep Broodwar is the only non athletic sport I've ever followed. I used to barely play broodwar but I watched it all the time with my friends. All the excitement and commentary and so on was fun. Then blizzard came out with starcraft 2 and it was all over. The minute they announced it had no LAN play, I knew I wouldn't buy it. And don't get me started on all the other things wrong with sc2 including pre-annouced 3 game money grab, the barely visible on the map creatures, etc.
On the one hand, having seen a number of people who haven't played bw at all watch professional games and being absolutely confused with the jumping screen and random terminology, I'm skeptical.
On the other hand, having watched European friends watch baseball for the first time...
On the other hand, having watched European friends watch baseball for the first time...
And the lack of production tab and even sometimes supply counts. I'm a serious StarCraft 2 player and trying to watch Brood War games is still immensely confusing.
As I was reading this, I was reminded immediately of Isaiah Thomas' farewell letter to Boston when we has traded from the Celtics that I read a few months back (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtic...). Then I googled it and realized that was also hosted on The Players' Tribune.
So I guess this is a thing now, writing long-form farewell letters for fans when you are traded or cut. Honestly, I kind of like it. I've never liked IT more than when I read his farewell. And while I'd never heard of Doublelift or TSM before, and don't really know anything about League of Legends, I enjoyed reading this article too. Sports are more interesting when you know more about what the players are thinking.
I dream of a day when 120 character tweets by celebrities and presidents are behind us, and long form content is back in style.
So I guess this is a thing now, writing long-form farewell letters for fans when you are traded or cut. Honestly, I kind of like it. I've never liked IT more than when I read his farewell. And while I'd never heard of Doublelift or TSM before, and don't really know anything about League of Legends, I enjoyed reading this article too. Sports are more interesting when you know more about what the players are thinking.
I dream of a day when 120 character tweets by celebrities and presidents are behind us, and long form content is back in style.
I'll throw this in here since you were reminded of another Players' Tribune article. It has to be because they use of ghostwriters all the time. Every single one of their articles have the same form, same word selection, same pacing.
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm not saying it's bad bad, but tough to take seriously if all of them are so similar. It'd be fun to go through and do some text analysis to see if it's provable.
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm not saying it's bad bad, but tough to take seriously if all of them are so similar. It'd be fun to go through and do some text analysis to see if it's provable.
I think that's standard. Writing is hard, I imagine political books are similar. Though I think the purpose of the Tribune was to allow athletes to control how they are heard.
A little over a decade ago (so somewhere in the early triassic period as far as videogames go) I was involved in big tourneys within the terrible game I was no-lifing at the time for efame, eglory, and shitty prizes.
My teammates and I had played for years at this point and despite being better at the forums than the game, we knew our way around the meta and had enough experience to make sensible decisions on the fly. Even then, we weren't ever within touching distance of the top tiers. Not even close.
Every tourney we were watched, jeered and very occasionally cheered by thousands of other players as we muddled through early stages against other weaker teams before eventually being out meta'd and out played by better players and it was brutal, adrenaline-shaking dopamine-flooded experience. It was physically addictive at its best, and absolutely soul crushing at worst.
Even within my short, strictly amateur 'career' in esports, the gulf between the top teams and everybody else was crazy. The level of dedication and raw focus the eventual winners possessed was frankly insane and something I simply wouldn't ever be able to muster. These guys who are already mechanically superb are living and breathing their games.
I genuinely can't even begin to imagine what it's like for professional LoL players at the top of the scene, small teams competing for huge prize pools with individual performance publicly dissected and analysed in microscopic detail by hordes of armchair pundits.
Throw in the inevitable post-tournament rosterpocalypse and flakey team management, I can't help but feel professional esports is cannibalising these players.
My teammates and I had played for years at this point and despite being better at the forums than the game, we knew our way around the meta and had enough experience to make sensible decisions on the fly. Even then, we weren't ever within touching distance of the top tiers. Not even close.
Every tourney we were watched, jeered and very occasionally cheered by thousands of other players as we muddled through early stages against other weaker teams before eventually being out meta'd and out played by better players and it was brutal, adrenaline-shaking dopamine-flooded experience. It was physically addictive at its best, and absolutely soul crushing at worst.
Even within my short, strictly amateur 'career' in esports, the gulf between the top teams and everybody else was crazy. The level of dedication and raw focus the eventual winners possessed was frankly insane and something I simply wouldn't ever be able to muster. These guys who are already mechanically superb are living and breathing their games.
I genuinely can't even begin to imagine what it's like for professional LoL players at the top of the scene, small teams competing for huge prize pools with individual performance publicly dissected and analysed in microscopic detail by hordes of armchair pundits.
Throw in the inevitable post-tournament rosterpocalypse and flakey team management, I can't help but feel professional esports is cannibalising these players.
Thanks, it's interesting to see articles like this every now and then as someone who briefly followed pro League back in the day. I guess it was Season 1 as I remember Doublelift being a lowly Blitz main before he switched to his current role. It was a lot of fun because there wasn't an officially sanctioned metagame -- not the case anymore. The game has been dull to watch for many years now.
Video games don't interest me these days, but the spirit of competition is one thing I miss about them. I always wonder what it's like to face the kind of pressure that top performers do.
Video games don't interest me these days, but the spirit of competition is one thing I miss about them. I always wonder what it's like to face the kind of pressure that top performers do.
I didn't expect to find a LoL post on ycombinator. I used to be a huge LoL and DoTA player as well, played moderately competitively, but I don't play those anymore since they suck too much time up.
A couple years back I went to The international Dota 2 in seattle for the first time with a buddy. Its a whole different dynamic actually playing DoTA / LoL vs watching professionals esports teams live with other attendees for 7 - 10 days in a row. The closest analogy to this is watching a football game on TV vs actually going to the stadium and seeing it live.
You get back into the spirit of competition there, since everyone else is, even if you haven't played in years.
Its only fun IMO if you don't go to an esports outing often though, otherwise it'd get dull after awhile.
A couple years back I went to The international Dota 2 in seattle for the first time with a buddy. Its a whole different dynamic actually playing DoTA / LoL vs watching professionals esports teams live with other attendees for 7 - 10 days in a row. The closest analogy to this is watching a football game on TV vs actually going to the stadium and seeing it live.
You get back into the spirit of competition there, since everyone else is, even if you haven't played in years.
Its only fun IMO if you don't go to an esports outing often though, otherwise it'd get dull after awhile.
I got into Dota 2 after League -- now THAT is a great game to watch. I played for a while before quitting that, too; as you say, it sucks up a lot of time, and there was no surrender option. Going to the International must be a great experience, though.
It looks like the kind of motivation to succeed which works in classic sports, also works in new sports. If you are of a mind to aim to 'the best' then it doesn't matter what field its in, what matters (to you) is to BE the best.
I rather like the US army recruiting slogan of old:
be the best you can be
It doesn't lead to being able to write blow-off letters on fan sites, but it makes me happy. I think I'm a low bar achiever.
I rather like the US army recruiting slogan of old:
be the best you can be
It doesn't lead to being able to write blow-off letters on fan sites, but it makes me happy. I think I'm a low bar achiever.
Be all that you can be
I can still hear the jingle ;-)
I can still hear the jingle ;-)
This eSport hype journalism is as tiring as LoL public chat.
" but one day I went to LeBron James’ Instagram, and I saw that his comments section was full of the exact same sort of garbage that I was getting"
Gosh that page has infuriating scroll behavior. Maybe it's supposed to implement smooth scrolling, but it somehow gets confused as to where the scroll actually is, which means any scroll attempt including using the keyboard flickers up and down very rapidly for about a second before finally settling down.
Thank goodness for Firefox's "Reader" mode.
Thank goodness for Firefox's "Reader" mode.
Has the same crazy jitter on Mobile Safari. Is there a browser that it does work right in? Chrome?
Yeah, some should really fix that scrolling issue... (FF here too)
[deleted]
I have enough trouble understanding why anyone likes regular Sports - I'm even more befuddled by eSports.
Are you competitive at all? If you aren’t, it would be hard to understand any competitive venture.
I'm actually pretty competitive, I just cant get over why anyone would get competitive about something with no long term value or meaning - it just doesn't register with me.
(Edit: I guess people take umbrage at my dislike of sports - my lack of enjoyment in nowway is judging you for enjoying - its more a broad sense of bewilderment)
(Edit: I guess people take umbrage at my dislike of sports - my lack of enjoyment in nowway is judging you for enjoying - its more a broad sense of bewilderment)
That's the secret, nothing has any long term value or meaning. Just enjoy the ride.
I play pinball on a competitive scale. It's great fun and it's internationally ranked (IFPA). We get toghether, and battle on machine that takes a lot of skills and knowledge to master. Seriously, the silver ball and physics bring a world of constant chaos.
E-sports seems like a bad joke that went on for too long. It goes to show that if you pump enough money into something, it will become a thing. The old saying "if you strap enough rockets to a pig, it will fly!" is basically it.
I hope not every 'sport' or 'hobby' come to that level, as it brings so much sadness and fake happiness in competition.
E-sports seems like a bad joke that went on for too long. It goes to show that if you pump enough money into something, it will become a thing. The old saying "if you strap enough rockets to a pig, it will fly!" is basically it.
I hope not every 'sport' or 'hobby' come to that level, as it brings so much sadness and fake happiness in competition.
It goes to show that if you pump enough money into something, it will become a thing.
Who do you think is pumping money into e-sports? The biggest event last year, The International 2017, had $24.7M prize pool. The first place prize was $10M -- $2M per player. The prize pool was funded by the fans themselves -- the organizing company started with putting $1.6M with their own cash, and the remaining $23M was collected from Dota 2 fans, who bought Battle Pass and various other items associated with it. In fact, only 25% of battle pass revenue went into prize pool -- this means that fans were spent almost $100M on this, and this doesn't even include the tickets to the actual event. This is real business with real revenues, not some fake bullshit pumped by some arcane wealth.
Who do you think is pumping money into e-sports? The biggest event last year, The International 2017, had $24.7M prize pool. The first place prize was $10M -- $2M per player. The prize pool was funded by the fans themselves -- the organizing company started with putting $1.6M with their own cash, and the remaining $23M was collected from Dota 2 fans, who bought Battle Pass and various other items associated with it. In fact, only 25% of battle pass revenue went into prize pool -- this means that fans were spent almost $100M on this, and this doesn't even include the tickets to the actual event. This is real business with real revenues, not some fake bullshit pumped by some arcane wealth.
Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what you're writing but are you really suggesting pinball is a more deserving sport than e-sports? That doesn't exactly feel like a convincing argument.
If you're saying "I don't understand why League is big and Pinball isn't". Well, that's popularity.
More importantly - who cares what other people like? If you don't like it, you don't have to jump in screaming "but this is baaaaaad!"
If you're saying "I don't understand why League is big and Pinball isn't". Well, that's popularity.
More importantly - who cares what other people like? If you don't like it, you don't have to jump in screaming "but this is baaaaaad!"
No what I'm saying is pumping too much money in a e-sport/hobby is bad.
Could you elaborate on how/why you view it as "bad"?
From my POV this is a "good" thing.
E-sports get a lot of eyeballs (views). More eyeballs (views) = more endorsement due to increased audience.
Personally, I'm an advocate for e-sports because I enjoy playing games & watching people compete at them especially at the elite level.
From my POV this is a "good" thing.
E-sports get a lot of eyeballs (views). More eyeballs (views) = more endorsement due to increased audience.
Personally, I'm an advocate for e-sports because I enjoy playing games & watching people compete at them especially at the elite level.
Pumping money into esports is a core part of their business model. Its their advertising budget and more importantly seeing really good players makes perhaps burnt out players play the game some more because it makes then excited about the game again, and eventually buy their in game items.
This seems really out of touch with the market and reality in general. Esports isn't a thing because infinite money made it so - it's manifested from the competitive nature of the people involved with it. I know it sounds a bit cliche, but it's just Sports. Changing the arena of battle or the physical machinations doesn't make it any less of a competitive, skilled atmosphere where objectives drive conquest. This particular dismissive nature of thinking is just backwards and wrong.
[deleted]
LoL takes a lot of skills and knowledge and experience to master, too. And I don't think it's accurate to imply that League of Legends owes its popularity as an e-sport to financing. Sure, it was a factor in its success, but remember how e-sports was regarded as utterly ridiculous when it first started being televised?
[deleted]
The fact that e-sports has exploded I think has a lot to do with how they've become more similar to real-world sports. We've moved from very artificial e-sports like Starcraft, fighting, racing (usually 1v1 games with extreme focus), to distinct role-based "MOBA" games like Overwatch, League of Legends that are much more similar to popular existing games like soccer and baseball.
Unlike in the earlier games, they rely slightly less than pure mechanical skill, which makes the sports accessible. They're team games with differentiated roles, allowing beginners a way into the game playing with, rather than against their friends. Sounds familiar? This could describe soccer, basketball, football, and all of the top spectator sports today.
Their only real substantial difference is that they're far more accessible, requiring only equipment that many already have (the games intentionally minimize system requirements) and don't require real physical athleticism.
I think it's no surprise they're becoming popular as spectator sports: they're building on a proven formula, but adding a dash of accessibility.