Ask HN: Can you get away with not working?
91 comments
From the looks of it, you asked basically this same question within the past year.
I think the real question is: are you being honest with yourself?
The last time you asked this it was more along the lines of "I hate my job and want out, btw I have wife and 1 child" and now it's more cooled down to "I've accepted that I hate my job and I'm sort of just punishing them with my lack of direction in life" and then looking for someone to make the decision(s) for you, here, /again/ evidently.
So are you being honest with yourself? Apart from income, what do you actually WANT to be doing? When you "work full time for yourself" are you going to have the motivation to do that? What direction do you have already, and what do you want your direction to change into or continue to be?
I think the real question is: are you being honest with yourself?
The last time you asked this it was more along the lines of "I hate my job and want out, btw I have wife and 1 child" and now it's more cooled down to "I've accepted that I hate my job and I'm sort of just punishing them with my lack of direction in life" and then looking for someone to make the decision(s) for you, here, /again/ evidently.
So are you being honest with yourself? Apart from income, what do you actually WANT to be doing? When you "work full time for yourself" are you going to have the motivation to do that? What direction do you have already, and what do you want your direction to change into or continue to be?
Ooh, good catch! For others' reference, here's the previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14100061
Favorite quote:
> I have been working on a startup on the side (and on the clock, because fuck it, idgaf anymore)
> I have been working on a startup on the side (and on the clock, because fuck it, idgaf anymore)
Good eye. Fun fact: I quit my job there, built these Android apps and started growing my SaaS, then got this job to help further fund my stuff on the side. I wasn’t expecting this job to be so boring (the job description sounded fun), or to be able to get away with doing the same thing as my last job. But a month in I started getting back into the groove of working on my stuff while on the clock. I’d love to quit but my revenue figures aren’t there yet.
Sounds like a similar situation to a high school student who is too bored at school, due to being capable of much more. What you need is a position that challenges you, and rewards that challenge with a higher pay.
Ugh... Let me give you a different point of view that will most likely not be popular in HNs, but what the hell.
I have had employees like you, and I try to scan like the plague during interviews to avoid hiring folks like you.
The thing is, that I hate to be micro-managed and by extension, I hate to micro-manage people. Since to have a good work environment, you need to have trust that works both ways.
When one person does what you do (20% barely getting by to appear like you are actually getting something done), you create resentment to the other folks in your team: "Why is throwaway184827 getting a pass when we are all working to do our best? This sucks, I end up having to do his work".
It is because of people like you that we had to create a structure to make sure that progress is being done, and so, overhead is being added and the party is over.
Do your employer and your teammates a favor and quit right now. Work in whatever is that you truly love - otherwise you are being toxic to people around you - and more importantly, yourself.
I have had employees like you, and I try to scan like the plague during interviews to avoid hiring folks like you.
The thing is, that I hate to be micro-managed and by extension, I hate to micro-manage people. Since to have a good work environment, you need to have trust that works both ways.
When one person does what you do (20% barely getting by to appear like you are actually getting something done), you create resentment to the other folks in your team: "Why is throwaway184827 getting a pass when we are all working to do our best? This sucks, I end up having to do his work".
It is because of people like you that we had to create a structure to make sure that progress is being done, and so, overhead is being added and the party is over.
Do your employer and your teammates a favor and quit right now. Work in whatever is that you truly love - otherwise you are being toxic to people around you - and more importantly, yourself.
Counter-point: assuming OP is employed at-will, his employer is free to fire him if they judge his output to be insufficient. But they don’t so... maybe they are fine with the current situation.
Firing people is hard. It can affect morale and send all kind of messages that the founder may not want to send. I'm guessing this will happen at some point, but as a founder who has been faced with this exact kind of situation, I can tell you that it's awful. People who slack can still be liked.
or maybe they are super pressed and would need it to be done faster, but trust the OP that this is simply not possible (because he must work on his side gig)
I believe it is manager's responsibility to set reasonable goals without resorting to micro-managing people.
Trust does go both ways.
I've seen it first hand what happens at an office where management does jack. Employees slack off as well.
I think a good weekly stand-up is sufficient.
Trust does go both ways.
I've seen it first hand what happens at an office where management does jack. Employees slack off as well.
I think a good weekly stand-up is sufficient.
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amen :)
I agree to a degree.
However, if your startup is, or stands to, make you a millionaire, and the engineers are just getting a salary, then it is they who should be resentful.
I can't speak to doing something to make sidemoney while you're on the clock. But I can speak to the boredom side of this question.
Whenever you feel the temptation to just slack off, come up with something that you could do to help the company out that would also be enjoyable.
For instance:
Most of my job is in Javascript/web and Golang. A few months ago I needed to get back into the swing of C# (and learn WinForms) to help out with a new project. (Other than my normal responsibilities, we're mostly a Microsoft shop)
At the same time, there was a PowerPoint file being sent around that we were supposed to fill out and screenshot to create an image based email signature.
I got approval from my direct supervisor to whip up a WinForms app that made an HTML signature (with RTF/txt fallbacks) that contained phone, email, and address links and automatically installed the signature to Outlook. Had a couple other convenience features as well.
So rather than screwing around, I learned a new library, provided value to the company, and had my name thrown around by the higher ups in a positive light for several weeks. All for the cost of maybe 16 hours of work here and there where I already had some spare time.
Whenever you feel the temptation to just slack off, come up with something that you could do to help the company out that would also be enjoyable.
For instance:
Most of my job is in Javascript/web and Golang. A few months ago I needed to get back into the swing of C# (and learn WinForms) to help out with a new project. (Other than my normal responsibilities, we're mostly a Microsoft shop)
At the same time, there was a PowerPoint file being sent around that we were supposed to fill out and screenshot to create an image based email signature.
I got approval from my direct supervisor to whip up a WinForms app that made an HTML signature (with RTF/txt fallbacks) that contained phone, email, and address links and automatically installed the signature to Outlook. Had a couple other convenience features as well.
So rather than screwing around, I learned a new library, provided value to the company, and had my name thrown around by the higher ups in a positive light for several weeks. All for the cost of maybe 16 hours of work here and there where I already had some spare time.
This is indeed a viable path if it's available. I get some sort of strange fulfillment out of integrating things, or adding features where none were expected... and most of what what I want to touch affects developer happiness, so of course my tech lead approves :) Fast-forward and in the past couple of years I've written Jenkins plugins, ugly glue code in Java (but that made everything else so much easier), a VS Code plug-in, the list goes on.
It's done well to keep me from getting antsy. It also enabled me to move without getting let go, because of my unique value add (I think)
It's done well to keep me from getting antsy. It also enabled me to move without getting let go, because of my unique value add (I think)
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Morality and legalities aside (don't trust internet strangers for that stuff anyway), I have some comments.
1. All employees should do the very minimum amount of work possible to sustain the relationship with their employer and meet their own personal goals. Check all the boxes, but don't go above and beyond unless there is a direct benefit to you (promotion, bonus, etc). If you can check all those boxes in just a fraction of the time, great!
2. If you're bootstrapping, keep the paycheck job as long as you can. Keep it, even if you hate it, until you HAVE to make a decision about working as a Founder or as an Employee. The longer that paycheck is coming in, the longer you'll be able to survive on ramen profitability. The more money you save (you're going into this with savings, right?) the better you'll fare in thin times.
Working for the man sucks, but running a struggling business while barely surviving can be worse. Running a struggling business with financial cushion can mean the difference between succeeding and failing.
1. All employees should do the very minimum amount of work possible to sustain the relationship with their employer and meet their own personal goals. Check all the boxes, but don't go above and beyond unless there is a direct benefit to you (promotion, bonus, etc). If you can check all those boxes in just a fraction of the time, great!
2. If you're bootstrapping, keep the paycheck job as long as you can. Keep it, even if you hate it, until you HAVE to make a decision about working as a Founder or as an Employee. The longer that paycheck is coming in, the longer you'll be able to survive on ramen profitability. The more money you save (you're going into this with savings, right?) the better you'll fare in thin times.
Working for the man sucks, but running a struggling business while barely surviving can be worse. Running a struggling business with financial cushion can mean the difference between succeeding and failing.
Be careful, many contracts contain parts that give full ownership of what you make on company time to your employer. You might loose your dream if you are not careful.
Some contracts even give ownership of what you create on your free time to the company.
Which is illegal in some areas, even if your contract says it, so as always make sure you know your rights.
In California employers can't claim ownership of work done off the clock[1]. Non-competes are also not enforceable generally in California[2].
[1]. http://law.onecle.com/california/labor/2870.html [2].https://www.tradesecretsandtransitions.com/2017/01/californi...
[1]. http://law.onecle.com/california/labor/2870.html [2].https://www.tradesecretsandtransitions.com/2017/01/californi...
Are non-enforceable non-competes a recent thing?
If you've been working in California for California employers, you've probably seen non-competes that prevent working for a competitor concurrently with that employer. I believe those are enforceable.
What is often presented in other states is an agreement to not work for competitors that extends for maybe 6 months to 2 years after employment; that's not generally enforceable in California, except with some specific exceptions, generally around when a business owner sells their business.
This has been the case for many years, through judicial review as well as legislation.
What is often presented in other states is an agreement to not work for competitors that extends for maybe 6 months to 2 years after employment; that's not generally enforceable in California, except with some specific exceptions, generally around when a business owner sells their business.
This has been the case for many years, through judicial review as well as legislation.
I'm curious what places would make the contract invalid considering the work is being done on-the-clock and likely on company equipment.
I know it's common, but I can't imagine those often hold up in court (assuming the work was completely unrelated, no employer hardware, knowledge, hours etc were used).
In general, the contract is phrased as "Work that relates to activities and business that the employer is currently involved in, or may become involved in in the future". So if you work for a large company that has many businesses, almost anything you invent could be related to some area they are involved in. However enforcement is relatively rare.
Edit: I found an article on Slashdot that I remember reading at the time, which scared the crap out of me. About a programmer that made a bunch of GPL code on his own time, but his employer stole it back. https://developers.slashdot.org/story/02/03/21/0139244/bewar...
Edit: I found an article on Slashdot that I remember reading at the time, which scared the crap out of me. About a programmer that made a bunch of GPL code on his own time, but his employer stole it back. https://developers.slashdot.org/story/02/03/21/0139244/bewar...
Interesting idea, would actually be funny if they can prove he wrote all the coide for his suddenly supersuccessful startup on their paid time and get a great percentage or all of the shares...
"We've been a bit unhappy about your performance for our main project but happy you created a more successful one for us..."
Management daydreaming. In reality there are 2 possibilities: the startup is either successful or it's not. In the former case, he'll hire his own better lawyers and bury their claim. In the latter, it's not worth their time. As long as you're not using their equipment and don't give them a way to prove you were using their time, they won't have a leg to stand on to make that claim (even if your employment contract has language that looks scary to an engineer with no legal background).
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This. Go re-read your terms of employment right now.
Even if you are allowed to moonlight, make sure you are not using your employers equipment (eg: laptop, internet, etc) to do so. They can claim partial ownership for providing them to you.
This right here.
Some contracts will have a section regarding intellectual property, you either have to list everything you want to keep and make updates as needed or your employer can claim your IP especially if it is within the same realm of the work you do for your employer.
Some contracts will have a section regarding intellectual property, you either have to list everything you want to keep and make updates as needed or your employer can claim your IP especially if it is within the same realm of the work you do for your employer.
They won’t be able to claim what they don’t know about. My advice the the OP is keep your mouth shut and don’t draw attention to yourself. Unfortunately you already posted...
I don't think you're the only one. I think that, outside of being careful to not be caught, it's pretty okay. The only real thing I'd caution is that it's especially soul deadening to be in a job that legitimately uses so little of your skills and captures so little of your interest. If it's possible for you to live merely off of the side biz income, I'd say make the leap and quit your job.
You'd be changing comfort for urgency and meaning, imo, and as long as it's financially sustainable, I'd say that's a good tradeoff.
You'd be changing comfort for urgency and meaning, imo, and as long as it's financially sustainable, I'd say that's a good tradeoff.
- shitty enterprise software, on one of the worst code bases I've ever seen
- Managers are very hands-off here, not many meetings either
I was in a similar spot. You can get away with a ton of stuff in an environment like this, but as you've probably guessed, it will quickly bore you or the code base will invoke tears. Bonus if they let you work from home, and they probably would if you come up with a decent reason.
Check your IP agreement, because someone doing due diligence on your Android/SaaS business will find that out if you ever plan to exit with your new companies.
I'd be interested if you could 're-launch' your products with a clean version control history to sneak out from underneath an IP agreement since your current employer likely doesn't have any interest or any code from you regarding those unless you've told them. That would be a lawyer question though.
Ethically, you should still keep enough working knowledge so that you don't fall into incompetence, and realize you may need to do occasional crunch-time which should get 100% of your attention.
In my not-so-humble opinion, it's up to the business to assess your skills and make use of them, so by only handing you work which you can easily accomplish, you are fulfilling your responsibilities to your employer. This ultimately hurts you more than them because it ends up being low-quality stuff for your resume and you have to do more stretching of the truth. The business is already stretching the truth likely by promoting the shitty code base as a good product.
Naturally, they won't be happy to find out you've been taking advantage of them, so I wouldn't ever bring up your Android/SaaS stuff or your free time around anyone.
- Managers are very hands-off here, not many meetings either
I was in a similar spot. You can get away with a ton of stuff in an environment like this, but as you've probably guessed, it will quickly bore you or the code base will invoke tears. Bonus if they let you work from home, and they probably would if you come up with a decent reason.
Check your IP agreement, because someone doing due diligence on your Android/SaaS business will find that out if you ever plan to exit with your new companies.
I'd be interested if you could 're-launch' your products with a clean version control history to sneak out from underneath an IP agreement since your current employer likely doesn't have any interest or any code from you regarding those unless you've told them. That would be a lawyer question though.
Ethically, you should still keep enough working knowledge so that you don't fall into incompetence, and realize you may need to do occasional crunch-time which should get 100% of your attention.
In my not-so-humble opinion, it's up to the business to assess your skills and make use of them, so by only handing you work which you can easily accomplish, you are fulfilling your responsibilities to your employer. This ultimately hurts you more than them because it ends up being low-quality stuff for your resume and you have to do more stretching of the truth. The business is already stretching the truth likely by promoting the shitty code base as a good product.
Naturally, they won't be happy to find out you've been taking advantage of them, so I wouldn't ever bring up your Android/SaaS stuff or your free time around anyone.
You mentioned "shitty enterprise software, on one of the worst code bases I've ever seen"
Do you realize that this is your fault too? Your job is to manage, maintain and improve the code-base but, instead, you choose to take advantage of the fact that you still get paid because people aren't micromanaging you and forcing you to do your job.
You should realize that lousy codebases and micromanagers exist because of the people who act like you are acting -- without a sense of personal responsibility and accountability.
Your lack of responsibility and commitment is a central reason why things are lousy for the rest of us.
Do you realize that this is your fault too? Your job is to manage, maintain and improve the code-base but, instead, you choose to take advantage of the fact that you still get paid because people aren't micromanaging you and forcing you to do your job.
You should realize that lousy codebases and micromanagers exist because of the people who act like you are acting -- without a sense of personal responsibility and accountability.
Your lack of responsibility and commitment is a central reason why things are lousy for the rest of us.
I assume you've never been in an enterprise environment. There are surely good ones, but a common theme is the following:
People will outsource a lot of things. The people outsourcing are not generally knowledgeable people but managers. They buy crappy software against the advice of their own engineers and then ask the engineers to maintain it.
What's worse is that a lot of young engineers will learn code from that crap. I have seen contractors in 2014 laughing at the enterprise for using something as silly as SVN or git. They sent a Whitepaper saying that file locking is the only right way of version control. Do you know how hard it is to correct a bad managers perception? I did, but I also lost my job.
They also had if statements that were 2000 columns wide. Only reason I knew what because I installed a trial version of resharper and ran their code through it.
You might think it's uncommon, but I've seen it in all sorts of places. The current place where it took me 2 years to convince senior management to buy resharper. They do the things I advise them to do, but it takes a shitload of convincing. An EE in the company just died of a heart attack. There's a massive load of cognitive dissonance in there, he tried to fix all sorts of stuff(which is good), but he never got around learning to objectively not care about it(i.e. if they screw up in the end it's their responsibility not yours, you advise them and they actively chose not to listen).
But putting the blame on those people, is at the very least extremely disingenuous.
The only fair question you can ask in this case is, why not just leave. For me it has strategic value, I generally advise people against doing so though.
People will outsource a lot of things. The people outsourcing are not generally knowledgeable people but managers. They buy crappy software against the advice of their own engineers and then ask the engineers to maintain it.
What's worse is that a lot of young engineers will learn code from that crap. I have seen contractors in 2014 laughing at the enterprise for using something as silly as SVN or git. They sent a Whitepaper saying that file locking is the only right way of version control. Do you know how hard it is to correct a bad managers perception? I did, but I also lost my job.
They also had if statements that were 2000 columns wide. Only reason I knew what because I installed a trial version of resharper and ran their code through it.
You might think it's uncommon, but I've seen it in all sorts of places. The current place where it took me 2 years to convince senior management to buy resharper. They do the things I advise them to do, but it takes a shitload of convincing. An EE in the company just died of a heart attack. There's a massive load of cognitive dissonance in there, he tried to fix all sorts of stuff(which is good), but he never got around learning to objectively not care about it(i.e. if they screw up in the end it's their responsibility not yours, you advise them and they actively chose not to listen).
But putting the blame on those people, is at the very least extremely disingenuous.
The only fair question you can ask in this case is, why not just leave. For me it has strategic value, I generally advise people against doing so though.
The shitty code base existed before they got there. Dropping 'new, refactored code base' onto your managers lap can go a couple of ways. Doing it quietly is a recipe for disaster because then you have no support. Your manager could deny a rewrite altogether. Then what?
If we had reasonable social safety nets, I would say quickly that he is irresponsible staying after finding out about the code base. But the problem is that employers upsell the stuff you're going to be working on. They don't tell you upfront that it's shit and you're the one to rewrite it. If you ask them about the quality of their code, they'd likely respond with "it has some painful points here and there" or some other non-answer.
If they hired OP to rewrite it, then yes, they're not fulfilling their responsibilities. But it sounds like a place that just shovels JIRA issues at you and tells you to go fix them.
An employer-employee relationship does not necessarily imply "I must do everything in my power to make sure this product is the best that it can be within my 40hrs/week". If you are leadership or a product owner, you have that burden, but not necessarily a LOB developer position. If they gave him that responsibility, they should immediately ask for a significant raise, because they've changed virtually the entire job which they were hired for.
If we had reasonable social safety nets, I would say quickly that he is irresponsible staying after finding out about the code base. But the problem is that employers upsell the stuff you're going to be working on. They don't tell you upfront that it's shit and you're the one to rewrite it. If you ask them about the quality of their code, they'd likely respond with "it has some painful points here and there" or some other non-answer.
If they hired OP to rewrite it, then yes, they're not fulfilling their responsibilities. But it sounds like a place that just shovels JIRA issues at you and tells you to go fix them.
An employer-employee relationship does not necessarily imply "I must do everything in my power to make sure this product is the best that it can be within my 40hrs/week". If you are leadership or a product owner, you have that burden, but not necessarily a LOB developer position. If they gave him that responsibility, they should immediately ask for a significant raise, because they've changed virtually the entire job which they were hired for.
The world in which everyone solely does the minimum of what they are explicitly asked to do would be a unkind, bleak, unproductive, and dysfunctional one.
I am extremely grateful that not everyone espouses this philosophy.
I am extremely grateful that not everyone espouses this philosophy.
Dying for corporate is not a hill you want to die on.
There are certainly companies which are worth putting in 100% effort, but this isn't one of them for OP. But the reality is that most of us need a job.
Who can we blame for not being able to perfectly match employers with employees and giving everyone a fairy tale ending?
There are certainly companies which are worth putting in 100% effort, but this isn't one of them for OP. But the reality is that most of us need a job.
Who can we blame for not being able to perfectly match employers with employees and giving everyone a fairy tale ending?
Not the OP, but there's often only so much you can do.
Bad software is often a cultural problem, and I know first hand that you can't just go in and change the culture of a place with the snap of your fingers, especially when you're not in management.
Sometimes you can't get authorization to work on things that would be a "waste of time", even if it means you sit there visibly doing nothing. That's just the way enterprises are sometimes.
Bad software is often a cultural problem, and I know first hand that you can't just go in and change the culture of a place with the snap of your fingers, especially when you're not in management.
Sometimes you can't get authorization to work on things that would be a "waste of time", even if it means you sit there visibly doing nothing. That's just the way enterprises are sometimes.
For a new member of a team it's very hard to be committed and take responsibility of the code base if none of the old team members care.
The tech-lead is responsible for the codebase.
I don't think the hourly base of being paid doesn't work for programming anyway. There are hours when I get done a lot and on other times I just sit for hours on something and do things, but accomplish nothing. What matters is the result.
So if they are happy with your results, even though you are only giving 60%, I think it is OK.
But quit as soon as possible and do something you really want! You only have limited lifetime, don't throw it away ... (even if you get money for it)
But quit as soon as possible and do something you really want! You only have limited lifetime, don't throw it away ... (even if you get money for it)
> You only have limited lifetime, don't throw it away ...
I think ^^ this is the most important consideration. Whether you're being fair to a non-real corporate entity is immaterial to the larger question of whether you're self-satisfied.
Be part of a team, if that works for you. But if the folks responsible for your team aren't smart enough or aware enough to notice that you're on your own team... well, that's an indication that they shouldn't be in charge in the first case.
I think ^^ this is the most important consideration. Whether you're being fair to a non-real corporate entity is immaterial to the larger question of whether you're self-satisfied.
Be part of a team, if that works for you. But if the folks responsible for your team aren't smart enough or aware enough to notice that you're on your own team... well, that's an indication that they shouldn't be in charge in the first case.
I mean, it's illegal and you're lying to your employer.. so in the end it's about your morale sense.. it doesn't matter much what other people do or think of it.
A somewhat stupid analogy is like saying "I'm killing people in my spare time. I get that it's wrong, but that hasn't stopped me from doing it. Am I the only one that does this?" If you find other people doing it won't make it more legal ;-)
A somewhat stupid analogy is like saying "I'm killing people in my spare time. I get that it's wrong, but that hasn't stopped me from doing it. Am I the only one that does this?" If you find other people doing it won't make it more legal ;-)
How is it illegal? There might be a civil case (can you sue an employee for laziness?) but I am unaware of a criminal statute on slacking off.
It's not being lazy, it's being paid for A and working on B, totally different thing.
If I hire a freelancer to work on project A and charges me X$/h, but instead work on project B and still charge me for that time, it's illegal. Of course, illegal is a fuzzy term, it really depends of how the contract is crafted and, more importantly, how much one would be willing to take legal action against the freelancer (which will most likely turns out more expensive than just letting it go).
I'm no lawyer, but pretty sure it's not written in standard contracts "Employees can work on whatever he/she wants, get to keep all the IP of it, pending that employee doesn't get caught."
If I hire a freelancer to work on project A and charges me X$/h, but instead work on project B and still charge me for that time, it's illegal. Of course, illegal is a fuzzy term, it really depends of how the contract is crafted and, more importantly, how much one would be willing to take legal action against the freelancer (which will most likely turns out more expensive than just letting it go).
I'm no lawyer, but pretty sure it's not written in standard contracts "Employees can work on whatever he/she wants, get to keep all the IP of it, pending that employee doesn't get caught."
>If I hire a freelancer to work on project A and charges me X$/h, but instead work on project B and still charge me for that time, it's illegal.
Employers with exempt full-time employees can mandate you stay for 40 hours/week regardless if you've finished your work for the week in the first 4 hours or not.
With physical labor, it's relatively easy to find the line where it's impossible to go faster.
With software, you can take a 3 month project and solve it in 10 minutes if it happens to be close enough to something available off-the-shelf. I get nothing extra if I deliver before the deadline by knowing about that solution (especially within 10 minutes), and that's the problem. Worst case, you have to write it all yourself and then you're still on-par with physical labor jobs, so you aren't entitled to anything extra for delivering before the deadline.
Employers with exempt full-time employees can mandate you stay for 40 hours/week regardless if you've finished your work for the week in the first 4 hours or not.
With physical labor, it's relatively easy to find the line where it's impossible to go faster.
With software, you can take a 3 month project and solve it in 10 minutes if it happens to be close enough to something available off-the-shelf. I get nothing extra if I deliver before the deadline by knowing about that solution (especially within 10 minutes), and that's the problem. Worst case, you have to write it all yourself and then you're still on-par with physical labor jobs, so you aren't entitled to anything extra for delivering before the deadline.
I'd imagine he means that all the side project work op is doing is technically owned by his employer, so using it for his own gain is illegal.
We don't know the employer's IP clause. I've certainly worked for companies which claim ownership of only IP directly discovered in the course of doing the company's work, related to the company's work, or using the company's equipment.
With that being said, OP is probably doing the work from his employer's office, which is definitely a breach of any employment contract I've ever signed.
With that being said, OP is probably doing the work from his employer's office, which is definitely a breach of any employment contract I've ever signed.
However, that still isn't illegal. That would be a civil dispute. "Illegal" is implying that he could go to jail and that he is breaking a law. Just nitpicking, but I think that "illegal" is a much stronger idea than simply "could get you fired or could get you sued."
I think it would still be a civil matter, just as patent infringement is.
It would more likely be a breach contract.
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As long as you're not violating your contract with your employer, it puts you in a better position down the road, right?
Employers have so much more negotiating power than employees that I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for them / blame employees in this kind of a situation. Obviously, if you're looking to make a difference in the company, or get promoted, or build experience you can use elsewhere, it's the wrong way to go. It may not be the best route to personal happiness either (making customers happy is probably key there, if you are in contact with customers). But it's your life, and once you leave the company everything you built there belongs to someone else. I don't see why anyone needs to pour their soul into building someone else's capital, in a moral sense.
Employers have so much more negotiating power than employees that I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for them / blame employees in this kind of a situation. Obviously, if you're looking to make a difference in the company, or get promoted, or build experience you can use elsewhere, it's the wrong way to go. It may not be the best route to personal happiness either (making customers happy is probably key there, if you are in contact with customers). But it's your life, and once you leave the company everything you built there belongs to someone else. I don't see why anyone needs to pour their soul into building someone else's capital, in a moral sense.
I personally know of a somewhat successful AI company that was built by my coworkers while they were employed at our current company.
They eventually got caught and fired but that didn't stop them from raising a couple of hundred K seed round.
You are definitely not the only one.
They eventually got caught and fired but that didn't stop them from raising a couple of hundred K seed round.
You are definitely not the only one.
If you really know your stuff, enough to build good apps and a successful business, then it's possible that a smart enough co-worker (manager or not) will notice a gap between that potential, and your output. So "can I get away" seems to me equivalent to, "will they notice, and if so, does it matter to them?"
The answers to those questions will vary over time as your employer's business itself changes. Your worst case scenario is "Yes/Yes," ofc, and best-case is "No/Irrelevant." Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I have seen cases where someone like you got "noticed," because a peer who didn't care about a side business out-competed them at work performance. No one was malicious in this equation; once "Mary" got going with her natural enthusiasm, it just became obvious that "Joe" was being paid too much. "Joe" got a bit of talking-to; he decided to quit.
If your W-2 income is critical to you, for whatever reason, you want to keep an eye on this whole situation. If the energy spent in keeping an eye on that drains you from pursuing your business goals, then it's not worth it to you to get away with it, even if you do.
If you are weighing moral qualms, don't fall into the trap of over simplifying it in either direction. No, you probably don't work for a "soulless" corporation that doesn't care about your creativity and thinks you are dispensable yada yada; but no, you didnt sign some sort of pledge of absolute allegiance either when you joined (but yeah, you did sign something that would give your employer property rights to your business, under certain circs, and it's again not a given whether they'll exercise this right if they can.)
Short version: it depends :)
The answers to those questions will vary over time as your employer's business itself changes. Your worst case scenario is "Yes/Yes," ofc, and best-case is "No/Irrelevant." Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I have seen cases where someone like you got "noticed," because a peer who didn't care about a side business out-competed them at work performance. No one was malicious in this equation; once "Mary" got going with her natural enthusiasm, it just became obvious that "Joe" was being paid too much. "Joe" got a bit of talking-to; he decided to quit.
If your W-2 income is critical to you, for whatever reason, you want to keep an eye on this whole situation. If the energy spent in keeping an eye on that drains you from pursuing your business goals, then it's not worth it to you to get away with it, even if you do.
If you are weighing moral qualms, don't fall into the trap of over simplifying it in either direction. No, you probably don't work for a "soulless" corporation that doesn't care about your creativity and thinks you are dispensable yada yada; but no, you didnt sign some sort of pledge of absolute allegiance either when you joined (but yeah, you did sign something that would give your employer property rights to your business, under certain circs, and it's again not a given whether they'll exercise this right if they can.)
Short version: it depends :)
Why not quit the job and be fair to both yourself and the business that hired you? It's just like a relationship, leave if it's not working. The end of any relationship can be liberating in so many aspects.
Money
Just imagine all of the coders that came before you that worked very hard on that project and made it worse. Your managers might be happy to finally see someone fubar-ing at a much reduced rate!
I think that's how a lot of developer-built businesses start.
No you're not the only person that's gone through this. If you work at a 9-5 and you're not doing this or focused on your friends / family / hobby or creative projects then maybe you're wasting the valuable little time you have on this earth. Big corporations exist precisely because they can afford the large inefficiencies that come from having a lot of people not really care much.
Now as far as quitting your job, that depends on how much savings you have, your historical ability to deal with extreme chaos, stress and uncertainty, and how much you realistically believe you can grow the business. Some business are great part time but difficult to scale.
Don't overthink it and just do what feels right. Remember that doing the wrong thing can end up being the right thing 10 years down the line.
Now as far as quitting your job, that depends on how much savings you have, your historical ability to deal with extreme chaos, stress and uncertainty, and how much you realistically believe you can grow the business. Some business are great part time but difficult to scale.
Don't overthink it and just do what feels right. Remember that doing the wrong thing can end up being the right thing 10 years down the line.
In my experience, the CxO's would likely chuckle if they found out (AND all your actual work is being done 100%). Middle management would likely not be very happy.
I used to spend at least half my day wandering around our campus because I could get everything done in 2 hours and would typically do another 2 hours because that would double my output. I couldn't get a 400% raise and I was satisfied with the amount of work I did, management wouldn't fire me because I was providing them with an awesome deal, etc.
I didn't tell them I did not work half the day. There's a lot of unspoken bullshit in the corporate would, normally it works against employees and I think it's okay for it to work for you sometimes, too.
I used to spend at least half my day wandering around our campus because I could get everything done in 2 hours and would typically do another 2 hours because that would double my output. I couldn't get a 400% raise and I was satisfied with the amount of work I did, management wouldn't fire me because I was providing them with an awesome deal, etc.
I didn't tell them I did not work half the day. There's a lot of unspoken bullshit in the corporate would, normally it works against employees and I think it's okay for it to work for you sometimes, too.
I empathize with your position very much, but I think you should reconsider your attitude of, "I don't enjoy my job (but who does)". I have worked on small teams building software that, even tho it's a job, we all really care about and learn together. I agree with those who suggested that you should find a new job OR quit and focus on your side-businesses full time.
Thinking more positively about the idea that a job can be fun will also work in your favour if your side businesses take off and you need to start hiring. You want to know how to spot and get-along with developers who actually care lest you end up with a team of people who will do to you what you are doing to your current employer.
Thinking more positively about the idea that a job can be fun will also work in your favour if your side businesses take off and you need to start hiring. You want to know how to spot and get-along with developers who actually care lest you end up with a team of people who will do to you what you are doing to your current employer.
Definitely not alone. I'm basically doing the same thing although none of my side projects are anywhere near as prpfitable.
Ethically, it's a bit dicey. I wouldn't feel great about working for an employer and deliberately slacking off or working on personal stuff most of the time. But then many employers are full of practices that are just as dicey on the ethical scale, if not more.
I lean towards, if you're in a situation where you have to do something ethically dubious to survive, then go ahead, as long as you're spending some effort on getting out of the situation. If you're making a legitimate effort to get out of the situation rather than wallowing in it, then you're clean enough in my book.
Do double-check your IP though. Depending on your country/state and any contracts you may have signed, your employer may have a legal right to things you have worked on. If the situation is at all unclear, it's worth a consultation with an appropriate lawyer to review your situation and be aware of what could happen if you ever try to take investment or get acquired.
I lean towards, if you're in a situation where you have to do something ethically dubious to survive, then go ahead, as long as you're spending some effort on getting out of the situation. If you're making a legitimate effort to get out of the situation rather than wallowing in it, then you're clean enough in my book.
Do double-check your IP though. Depending on your country/state and any contracts you may have signed, your employer may have a legal right to things you have worked on. If the situation is at all unclear, it's worth a consultation with an appropriate lawyer to review your situation and be aware of what could happen if you ever try to take investment or get acquired.
"working for the man". This "man" is paying for you to do a job. You don't have to do it if you don't want to, you can go back and live at your parents house.
Excuse me if I'm sounding rude but you sound very young, and unaware that what you are doing is illegal and seem to have misplaced resentment
Excuse me if I'm sounding rude but you sound very young, and unaware that what you are doing is illegal and seem to have misplaced resentment
What law is being broken?
As far as I can tell, this could be a breach of employment contract at most, and that's a civil matter.
As far as I can tell, this could be a breach of employment contract at most, and that's a civil matter.
I wouldn't fault any employee for slacking off, because almost everybody is underpaid, has no real share of ownership, no loyalty... it's an adversarial relationship of the employers' making.
> almost everybody is underpaid
That doesn't make sense. If someone is underpaid, they make less than most other people who do the same job. If "almost everybody" is making a certain amount, then they aren't underpaid -- they make the market rate.
That doesn't make sense. If someone is underpaid, they make less than most other people who do the same job. If "almost everybody" is making a certain amount, then they aren't underpaid -- they make the market rate.
I'm talking about uneven share of profits. Ownership takes it all. We are paid the minimum possible in most cases.
Ownership also takes all the risks. Profits is the reward for taking risks.
All employees can also enjoy profits, by becoming owners of a company, either through stocks or starting their own business.
All employees can also enjoy profits, by becoming owners of a company, either through stocks or starting their own business.
This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Employees take risks too. Time has its own opportunity cost risk. and it's felt more by employees slaving away at company initiatives than by the ones who dream up those plans. If I've wasted my time as a business owner, I have only myself to blame. As an employee, there's a real risk of wasted time and the accompanying loss of worthwhile pursuits.
The other obvious risk is that of unexpectedly losing your job. By and large, employees are not financially independent and are at the mercy of their employers. Ownership has the intel and leverage to plan a graceful fall for themselves. Employees are typically terminated with zero notice, while it's a faux pas for an employee to do the same.
Another risk is that an employee will find real conflict with an employer, and stare down the barrel of a well-funded legal team. People have had their lives destroyed by it.
The other obvious risk is that of unexpectedly losing your job. By and large, employees are not financially independent and are at the mercy of their employers. Ownership has the intel and leverage to plan a graceful fall for themselves. Employees are typically terminated with zero notice, while it's a faux pas for an employee to do the same.
Another risk is that an employee will find real conflict with an employer, and stare down the barrel of a well-funded legal team. People have had their lives destroyed by it.
The way to share in a company's profits is through stock. Most large companies have employee stock purchase plans and/or give stock as compensation -- not just tech companies. This gives employees a share of profits and makes them partial owners of the company. I'm not sure what more you want.
Most people aren't getting equity at all. Of those who get equity, it's meaningless. The lion's share of profits go to ownership or shareholders.
Your point is a good one. I’ve never worked anywhere where the gains from equity had any kind of significance. From public companies it was indistinguishable from cash since its value never grew significantly and/or went down. From startups they all ended up worth zero.
I could see equity being a great motivator if it was less of a lottery. I’m happy to do good work for good compensation and that often includes stock. But I’ve never considered myself “motivated as if an owner” of my employer.
I could see equity being a great motivator if it was less of a lottery. I’m happy to do good work for good compensation and that often includes stock. But I’ve never considered myself “motivated as if an owner” of my employer.
I have some kind of understanding for what you're doing because I've seen many enterprise projects where the organization of the project, the way they work and care for properly engineered software, the bureaucracy that makes the simplest step complicated and all these things create an environment that reduces my productivity to 1-10% (yes, that's what left not how much is taken from the 100%!) so that acting this way would actually not even result in a noticeable lesser productivity. I also thought about spending time like this that I 'm otherwise waiting for bureaucracy steps to happen so I can go ahead. But somehow I feel it's not ok. I need to find projects that suit and motivate me better, or save some money and take a while off to work on my thing.
I had a couple of employees working for me that used to do this... for more than three years they used to do the bare minimum (1-2 hours/day at most) ... I used to try to motivate/nudge them to at least automate parts of the work they were doing so that we could make a product (SaaS) offering out of it and provide that to additional clients and grow the business (of which all of us would benefit with generous profit sharing)... being a small business owner, i couldn't risk losing them... so I carried a fair amount of their load... Finding balanced people involves lot of luck as well!
I do wonder where the line is. Not in the ethical sense, logically: do you expect to run your business as a one-man-show forever? If not, paranoia ahead: you'll see your employees as yourself-the-employee.
I'm sure you're not the only one. Do you ever worry that your side project won't be as interesting if you ever stop working for the man? "Want what you can't have" and all that?
They're paying you for the amount of the work done and if they're OK with the progress I don't see a problem. Perhaps you're just more productive than the others who work harder?
Be careful, you almost certainly signed a document saying anything you make during business hours is their property.
You would be on a better ethical and legal footing if you quit your job and switched to contracting. You might possibly even be able to contract with your current employer. Of course, the downside of contracting is that you have to spend a good fraction of your time finding and negotiating work.
Get married and have children and then you won't be complaining about the codebase.
if it is a healthy company they will figure you out and throw you away once it becomes convenient.
if it is a bad company, you might get away with that, but you will miss on a lot of learnigs, earnings and networking if you stay there.
in both cases, i believe you should make a change.
personally, i would be too compassionate to the company’s success, and too paranoid on improving my own job security and salary to ever think about doing what you do. i am not judging though.
if it is a bad company, you might get away with that, but you will miss on a lot of learnigs, earnings and networking if you stay there.
in both cases, i believe you should make a change.
personally, i would be too compassionate to the company’s success, and too paranoid on improving my own job security and salary to ever think about doing what you do. i am not judging though.
If you are producing roughly in line with everyone else then your 40% might be enough to last a few years.
Still expect to be fired suddenly.
Still expect to be fired suddenly.
I quit working for the man, and focusing on getting to ramen profitability is hard and scary.
Way to keep a paycheck :)
Way to keep a paycheck :)
So, tell us. What are your SAAS business/Apps about? (broad area)
WOW!, what happened to personal integrity? If you think what you're doing is right then forward this thread to your boss. I assume you put the same integrity into your "dream" work; with that said I would advise all to avoid whatever you publish as you won't apparently put any more in than you think you can get away with.
Managers are very hands-off here, not many meetings either, outside of a weekly stand-up. I get just enough done each week to seem mildly productive to management which seems to be working.
Thing is, I spend a good 40% of my time working on growing a couple Android apps and a SaaS business I've built which make up ~40% of my income so that I can finally quit working for The Man and focus on my dream full time.
Posting this to get some thoughts from people who may have been or currently are where I'm at. I get that it's wrong, but that hasn't stopped me from doing it.
Am I the only one that does this?