Hindu Nationalists Undertake Effort to Rewrite History in India(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Hindu Nationalists Undertake Effort to Rewrite History in India
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/india-modi-culture/
105 comments
And yet we seem to have fairly reasonable discussions about other contentious issues like vaccination, race, and sex. But somehow discussions of Indian politics turn into flamewars and get flagged off the front page within minutes. As an outsider, I don't get to hear the parties in these debates have the kind of civil discussion this site is generally known for, and I'm left in the dark as to what's even at issue, let alone what the truth might be. This is disappointing, because India is a large, populous, and influential country, and it behooves all of us to understand what's happening there.
>>I'm left in the dark as to what's even at issue, let alone what the truth might be.
Let me try.
India is a big country. And being a tropical heaven, rich with water, abundant sunlight, lack of extreme weathers, fertile soil and perennial rivers was the country to be in pre-renaissance/industrial age world. As you can see with these favorable conditions, it was easy to grow food India. Hence it was a attractive destination for a lot of people to settle/immigrate/invade.
Given these luxuries, India got a massive head start over other countries in the world when it comes to thinking and developing various cultures and philosophies. Over time many people immigrated/invaded India. They bought in their own things, most of which were absorbed in local cultures and have evolved for ages. There fore many religions, languages, festivals, food habits, clothing habits, literature, science etc etc came into being in India. In short the history got very diverse.
Recent one being British rule of India, and before that the Mughal empire. These events have deep cultural, literary, food, festivals and other influence on the masses. And as you can see these are associated with people following religions other the ones that existed in India several centuries back. Now this altered the way country itself is made up of. Every one in India is a minority of some sort, except on religious lines.
Since Independence and in later decades there has been a rise of a political ecosystem, which wishes to assemble a vote bank on the lines of religion. This is of course in direct conflict with the affairs as they are. I mean existing cultural and other aspects(Which are diverse). Since both British and Mughal periods are recent history you can see their influences in every thing from Bollywood songs, to Kurta pyjamas to Chicken Tandoori. And of course if you want people to aggregate on religious lines you want to undo that influence.
I don't know if the end goal is to make people sing Bollywood songs in Sanskrit. But stressing upon the identity that existed several thousands of years back definitely is the goal. If you get to aggregate people under one identity then may be you can make them vote as a block.
Let me try.
India is a big country. And being a tropical heaven, rich with water, abundant sunlight, lack of extreme weathers, fertile soil and perennial rivers was the country to be in pre-renaissance/industrial age world. As you can see with these favorable conditions, it was easy to grow food India. Hence it was a attractive destination for a lot of people to settle/immigrate/invade.
Given these luxuries, India got a massive head start over other countries in the world when it comes to thinking and developing various cultures and philosophies. Over time many people immigrated/invaded India. They bought in their own things, most of which were absorbed in local cultures and have evolved for ages. There fore many religions, languages, festivals, food habits, clothing habits, literature, science etc etc came into being in India. In short the history got very diverse.
Recent one being British rule of India, and before that the Mughal empire. These events have deep cultural, literary, food, festivals and other influence on the masses. And as you can see these are associated with people following religions other the ones that existed in India several centuries back. Now this altered the way country itself is made up of. Every one in India is a minority of some sort, except on religious lines.
Since Independence and in later decades there has been a rise of a political ecosystem, which wishes to assemble a vote bank on the lines of religion. This is of course in direct conflict with the affairs as they are. I mean existing cultural and other aspects(Which are diverse). Since both British and Mughal periods are recent history you can see their influences in every thing from Bollywood songs, to Kurta pyjamas to Chicken Tandoori. And of course if you want people to aggregate on religious lines you want to undo that influence.
I don't know if the end goal is to make people sing Bollywood songs in Sanskrit. But stressing upon the identity that existed several thousands of years back definitely is the goal. If you get to aggregate people under one identity then may be you can make them vote as a block.
Thanks for a thoughtful response!
Country with ~1.3 billion people which is crazy diverse (in terms of number of languages, number of scripts, history, culture, cuisine, arts, religion and geography), is guaranteed to have groups of people with many different views.
With such variety, in addition to the great percentage of users on HN being from India (this is just a guess), it's a difficult task to have a good debate without getting the conversation/topic/comment flagged.
While much of the popular international media (CNN, NYT, WSJ, WaPo, BBC, Reuters etc) sitcks to a certain ideology, it is near impossible to expect a fair debate based on the India specific content published in these sources of news, which often tend to view everything from Right/Left or Liberal/Progressive/Conservative POV.
Currently, the issue is that the history of India is written from the British POV, which has been tweaked later by Russian and American POVs. None of them really glorifying anything that is native to India. In fact a movie glorifying Winston Churchill just won 2 oscars in 2018, while people across the world, including many Indians are not aware of the artificial Bengal Famine orchestrated by Churchill, that lead to the death of 3 million Bengalis. Try inserting this in school texts, and similar uproar will occur.
Similarly, contribution of ancient India to the field of science, maths, astronomy and astrophysics is almost non-exsitent. Even now, none of the school texts in India do any justice to this, nor do modern (past 19th century) literature outside India.
Example: Many basic mathematical concepts like pythagorean theorem, the current numerical system etc are considered innovations/inventions from Europe and Arabian peninsula (respectively). In India, there's been enough proof available (as cited by those who believe these are Indian inventions) for many to think these are innovations from India and if not the world, at least kids in India should learn that these are Indian innovations and that Indians need to be proud of it.
Now based on which side of the debate you are, you'd either dismiss this thought, or hold on to it very dearly, or take a step back and say there needs to be more research on this, and in either case, present both the cases to students who are studying in schools.
Many thousand years of scientific understanding remain hidden in plain sight, because of such meddling with history, that draws many many students away from even exploring the real Indian history, from the lens of an Indian, and that is why this is a highly contentious issue.
With a Left/Left-liberal/Socialistic/Marxist type of a government India had for ten years (until 2014), enough meddling with history was done at school level, and now the Right of Center / kind of Capitalist govt wants to undo that, and make up for the tweaked history in India over the last few centuries.
The moment any such move is made in this direction, we have the world media of certain ideology hyperventilating on such issues and publishing clickbait articles.
With such variety, in addition to the great percentage of users on HN being from India (this is just a guess), it's a difficult task to have a good debate without getting the conversation/topic/comment flagged.
While much of the popular international media (CNN, NYT, WSJ, WaPo, BBC, Reuters etc) sitcks to a certain ideology, it is near impossible to expect a fair debate based on the India specific content published in these sources of news, which often tend to view everything from Right/Left or Liberal/Progressive/Conservative POV.
Currently, the issue is that the history of India is written from the British POV, which has been tweaked later by Russian and American POVs. None of them really glorifying anything that is native to India. In fact a movie glorifying Winston Churchill just won 2 oscars in 2018, while people across the world, including many Indians are not aware of the artificial Bengal Famine orchestrated by Churchill, that lead to the death of 3 million Bengalis. Try inserting this in school texts, and similar uproar will occur.
Similarly, contribution of ancient India to the field of science, maths, astronomy and astrophysics is almost non-exsitent. Even now, none of the school texts in India do any justice to this, nor do modern (past 19th century) literature outside India.
Example: Many basic mathematical concepts like pythagorean theorem, the current numerical system etc are considered innovations/inventions from Europe and Arabian peninsula (respectively). In India, there's been enough proof available (as cited by those who believe these are Indian inventions) for many to think these are innovations from India and if not the world, at least kids in India should learn that these are Indian innovations and that Indians need to be proud of it.
Now based on which side of the debate you are, you'd either dismiss this thought, or hold on to it very dearly, or take a step back and say there needs to be more research on this, and in either case, present both the cases to students who are studying in schools.
Many thousand years of scientific understanding remain hidden in plain sight, because of such meddling with history, that draws many many students away from even exploring the real Indian history, from the lens of an Indian, and that is why this is a highly contentious issue.
With a Left/Left-liberal/Socialistic/Marxist type of a government India had for ten years (until 2014), enough meddling with history was done at school level, and now the Right of Center / kind of Capitalist govt wants to undo that, and make up for the tweaked history in India over the last few centuries.
The moment any such move is made in this direction, we have the world media of certain ideology hyperventilating on such issues and publishing clickbait articles.
>>Currently, the issue is that the history of India is written from the British POV, which has been tweaked later by Russian and American POVs.
From the tooth brush in the morning to the mosquito mat in the night. AntiBiotics to Cancer treatments. Electricity to Internal combustion engines. You could even breath and there would be some Western innovation that would be driving it.
They invented it, so we study about them. If we had invented all this we would be studying about our people inventing it.
>>Many basic mathematical concepts like pythagorean theorem
These low hanging fruit science achievements were done by everyone, you could pull a Amazonian tribe randomly and there will be fairly decent algebra going on, because you if you have to live you have to do basic arithmetic and math.
And then of course 0. Guess how people in the past, say 100000 years back, who hunted two deers and eat them, counted the remainder? You got it right. 0 comes to existence that moment you start counting things.
India didn't produce a Euclid, heck it didn't even produce a Pythagoras, Newton or even a Al-Jabr.
Let alone achieving anything, most people here didn't even have the rights to study for thousands of years. We are the only nation on earth, with all these favorable and luxurious weather and agriculture conditions, with a civilization continuity over several millenia which has nothing to show for.
From the tooth brush in the morning to the mosquito mat in the night. AntiBiotics to Cancer treatments. Electricity to Internal combustion engines. You could even breath and there would be some Western innovation that would be driving it.
They invented it, so we study about them. If we had invented all this we would be studying about our people inventing it.
>>Many basic mathematical concepts like pythagorean theorem
These low hanging fruit science achievements were done by everyone, you could pull a Amazonian tribe randomly and there will be fairly decent algebra going on, because you if you have to live you have to do basic arithmetic and math.
And then of course 0. Guess how people in the past, say 100000 years back, who hunted two deers and eat them, counted the remainder? You got it right. 0 comes to existence that moment you start counting things.
India didn't produce a Euclid, heck it didn't even produce a Pythagoras, Newton or even a Al-Jabr.
Let alone achieving anything, most people here didn't even have the rights to study for thousands of years. We are the only nation on earth, with all these favorable and luxurious weather and agriculture conditions, with a civilization continuity over several millenia which has nothing to show for.
The current narrative suits your beliefs well, and you have no incentive in questioning it.
I believe there's enough to be questioned, and want the govt to fund research that ask these questions, and provide its findings to the public.
Neither you, nor I are asking for the govt to change the history blindly. Where we disagree is whether to question the history as we have been taught or not.
Looking at your responses, I think we better agree to disagree and keep this comments pyramid of doom short! :)
I believe there's enough to be questioned, and want the govt to fund research that ask these questions, and provide its findings to the public.
Neither you, nor I are asking for the govt to change the history blindly. Where we disagree is whether to question the history as we have been taught or not.
Looking at your responses, I think we better agree to disagree and keep this comments pyramid of doom short! :)
>> India didn't produce a Euclid, heck it didn't even produce a Pythagoras, Newton or even a Al-Jabr.
Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_mathematicians
I think what you meant is that Euclid and Pythagoras are more well known.
Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_mathematicians
I think what you meant is that Euclid and Pythagoras are more well known.
Interesting, thank you for representing the argument in favor of making revisions.
Thanks.
Curious. which country are you from and whats your opinion based on what you have read about issues in India till now?
Curious. which country are you from and whats your opinion based on what you have read about issues in India till now?
Calvinbhai , in the meantime it is the task of informed people like yourself to call out these things in the nick of time to take it to a more meaningful debate instead of the routine:
' India is a street shitting, rapist, poor , illiterate and nothing better can be expected'.
I think it is impossible for any westerner to understand the history of India looking at it from their distance lens and trying to classify politics as left v right or rich v poor.
It is very interesting to note that with this kind of assertion the impact of the previous Govt's ecosystem can be seen. You are on the back foot defending your stance all the time instead of calling out problems right away.
' India is a street shitting, rapist, poor , illiterate and nothing better can be expected'.
I think it is impossible for any westerner to understand the history of India looking at it from their distance lens and trying to classify politics as left v right or rich v poor.
It is very interesting to note that with this kind of assertion the impact of the previous Govt's ecosystem can be seen. You are on the back foot defending your stance all the time instead of calling out problems right away.
Agree.
HackerNews seems to quite resilient to such clickbaity condescending articles, but this one still made through.
I think there are many outside India who want to understand it genuinely, but are deluged with agenda based news with no other source of information they can rely on.
HackerNews seems to quite resilient to such clickbaity condescending articles, but this one still made through.
I think there are many outside India who want to understand it genuinely, but are deluged with agenda based news with no other source of information they can rely on.
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> having read more and more content from independent authors (not funded by an institution, publicly)
Could you please list these books, papers etc? I too am in hunt of more neutral, unbiased work.
Could you please list these books, papers etc? I too am in hunt of more neutral, unbiased work.
there is no such thing as unbiased in the case of India. The history is rife with many different issues.
The current history of India was rewritten by leftist who control Indian universities like JNU.
You will never find anything truly objective till you visit the country and explore its complex interwoven history by yourself and listen to many different perspectives. Even after that nothing can be compressed into a simple narrative.
The only difference is India is still a democracy unlike China so you routinely get exaggerated articles like these popping up.
The current history of India was rewritten by leftist who control Indian universities like JNU.
You will never find anything truly objective till you visit the country and explore its complex interwoven history by yourself and listen to many different perspectives. Even after that nothing can be compressed into a simple narrative.
The only difference is India is still a democracy unlike China so you routinely get exaggerated articles like these popping up.
I really suggest that you dig into original references.
1. Read translations of original Buddhist/Jain literature and the Puranas to get an idea of the founding of the Nandas, Pataliputra, Chanakya, Chandragupta Maurya, and Ashoka.
2. Read translations of Megasthenes, Hiuen Tsang, and Fa-hein.
3. Read translations of Harshacharita by Banabhatta to get a feel of Harshavardhana's empire. Read how Banabhatta tears into the practice of Sati - in 600AD. No modern history book will tell you about this.
4. Read "History of India by it's Own Historians" - Elliot to get an idea of the Muslim invasions and the Mughals. These are translations of biographies and works of Muslim historians spanning Ghazni to the Mughals.
1. Read translations of original Buddhist/Jain literature and the Puranas to get an idea of the founding of the Nandas, Pataliputra, Chanakya, Chandragupta Maurya, and Ashoka.
2. Read translations of Megasthenes, Hiuen Tsang, and Fa-hein.
3. Read translations of Harshacharita by Banabhatta to get a feel of Harshavardhana's empire. Read how Banabhatta tears into the practice of Sati - in 600AD. No modern history book will tell you about this.
4. Read "History of India by it's Own Historians" - Elliot to get an idea of the Muslim invasions and the Mughals. These are translations of biographies and works of Muslim historians spanning Ghazni to the Mughals.
It's probably "History of India by its Own Historians".
And it's worth noting that it was written specifically to advance the view that British colonialism was okay because, apparently, the Mughals and the Central Asian Sultans were worse.
It's a translation of various Muslim historians. So you can go read the original text. You can completely ignore the "British commentary" if you so wish.
Even if you don't read his commentaries, you have to contend with his selection of source material - texts and translations. They don't exist in a vacuum, they have purpose and context.
cant cite here, but I usually look for twitter people who challenge the current narrative, or even my own understanding. Most often, these are articles and long form blogposts that show up on my time line.
Basically anything that tends to create a false dichotomy, is a red flag. And I'm not a big fan of books necessarily, because there's a financial incentive for the author to pander to certain ideology (irrespective of the ideology being something I believe in or not).
Basically anything that tends to create a false dichotomy, is a red flag. And I'm not a big fan of books necessarily, because there's a financial incentive for the author to pander to certain ideology (irrespective of the ideology being something I believe in or not).
>>fix the education system that has been messed by the previous administration.
There is an assumption that the education system currently is in 'mess'. That is not true.
>>The 1% of history gets 99% focus
That is how school level education works. Do you think they teach 99% of physics or math in school? Or 99% of entire literature of whichever language you study? You can always opt for Masters or Doctorate in history, instead of other engineering or medicine courses.
>>whereas an equally amazing 99% is not mentioned
Feel free take up History as your specialization after 10th standard. You can go up to Doctorate and beyond.
>>either due to laziness or due to scheming history writers, wanting to support a particular ideology.
History is already well written and you can read if you wan to. And even study it full time. You just have to pick the right course. Don't expect to opt for Engineering and Medicine and then study history there.
>>Whats worse, is an Indian kid learns more about 200 to 400 yr old architecture around the world, but zilch about a 1000yr old fort or a temple in his/her own state.
As an Indian kid in the past, now adult. Who used to spend a lot of time in libraries, you can walk into any government library and pick up any book on any era and specialize on. There is mountains of work written. People just don't read it because the economic value of such knowledge is 0.
There is an assumption that the education system currently is in 'mess'. That is not true.
>>The 1% of history gets 99% focus
That is how school level education works. Do you think they teach 99% of physics or math in school? Or 99% of entire literature of whichever language you study? You can always opt for Masters or Doctorate in history, instead of other engineering or medicine courses.
>>whereas an equally amazing 99% is not mentioned
Feel free take up History as your specialization after 10th standard. You can go up to Doctorate and beyond.
>>either due to laziness or due to scheming history writers, wanting to support a particular ideology.
History is already well written and you can read if you wan to. And even study it full time. You just have to pick the right course. Don't expect to opt for Engineering and Medicine and then study history there.
>>Whats worse, is an Indian kid learns more about 200 to 400 yr old architecture around the world, but zilch about a 1000yr old fort or a temple in his/her own state.
As an Indian kid in the past, now adult. Who used to spend a lot of time in libraries, you can walk into any government library and pick up any book on any era and specialize on. There is mountains of work written. People just don't read it because the economic value of such knowledge is 0.
While i agree Indian history cannot be taught properly in a history text book i think each state introduces its own biases and the CBSE textbooks do a big disservice to Indian icons like Shivaji and their contribution to the country especially at the expense of Muslim rulers. The well documented atrocities of a despot like Aurangzeb are whitewashed
In my schooling in New Delhi in the 80s -- when the Congress-ization of the NCERT was at its peak -- I clearly recall being taken on a school trip to see a film about Shivaji, and also learning about the cruelty of Aurangzeb to everyone including his own family. So I'm not sure what sort of whitewashing you're referring to. Where did you go to school?
There's a difference between what history textbooks/syllabuses teach, and the history that you learn from your parents, amar chitra kathas, films, and even your teachers. The whitewashing happens in the syllabus and textbooks, but fortunately, it's very difficult to whitewash the collective memory of a society that has been subject to a brutal rule and that has been transferring knowledge from generation to generation by word of mouth.
Also, it's pretty hard to hide the clearly visible signs of destruction of idols, temples, and other hindu architecture, so a society would need to suffer from an extreme case of cognitive dissonance to accept what's in our history texts as truth.
Also, it's pretty hard to hide the clearly visible signs of destruction of idols, temples, and other hindu architecture, so a society would need to suffer from an extreme case of cognitive dissonance to accept what's in our history texts as truth.
Is there some reference you can point to about this whitewashing in the textbooks? Because I don't recall it being so.
Yes, of course. Just get the NCERT history texts of Grade 6 and 7[1]. Grade 6 deals with ancient india till Harsha (6xx AD). Grade 7 starts with Delhi Sultanate (12xx AD). 600 years of history that included the brutalism of Ghazni and Ghori gone. Poof. Just like that.
1. https://www.books4jobs.com/ncert-books-history-class-6-12-ia...
1. https://www.books4jobs.com/ncert-books-history-class-6-12-ia...
Opened the Class 7 book, immediately found multiple references to Ghazni, one to Ghori. For perspective, Maharaja Ranjit Singh also gets one passing mention. So I guess I'm not seeing the systematic effort so far; perhaps there is more in other textbooks but my attention span is limited.
Compare:
Noon had not arrived when the Musulmans had wreaked their vengeance on the infidel enemies of God, killing 15,000 of them, spreading them like a carpet over the ground, and making them food for beasts and birds of prey.
...and twice that value was obtained from the necks of those of his relatives who were taken prisoners, or slain, and had become the food of the mouths of hyenas and vultures. God also bestowed upon his friends such an amount of booty as was beyond all bounds and all calculation, including five hundred thousand slaves, beautiful men and women.
with... (ncert text)
One of the best known of such rulers is Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, Afghanistan. He ruled from 997 to 1030, and extended control over parts of Central Asia, Iran and the north-western part of the subcontinent. He raided the subcontinent almost every year – his targets were wealthy temples, including that of Somnath, Gujarat. Much of the wealth Mahmud carried away was used to create a splendid capital city at Ghazni. He was interested in finding out more about the people he conquered, and entrusted a scholar named al-Biruni to write an account of the subcontinent. This Arabic work, known as the Kitab-al Hind, remains an important source for historians. He consulted Sanskrit scholars to prepare this account.
Noon had not arrived when the Musulmans had wreaked their vengeance on the infidel enemies of God, killing 15,000 of them, spreading them like a carpet over the ground, and making them food for beasts and birds of prey.
...and twice that value was obtained from the necks of those of his relatives who were taken prisoners, or slain, and had become the food of the mouths of hyenas and vultures. God also bestowed upon his friends such an amount of booty as was beyond all bounds and all calculation, including five hundred thousand slaves, beautiful men and women.
with... (ncert text)
One of the best known of such rulers is Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, Afghanistan. He ruled from 997 to 1030, and extended control over parts of Central Asia, Iran and the north-western part of the subcontinent. He raided the subcontinent almost every year – his targets were wealthy temples, including that of Somnath, Gujarat. Much of the wealth Mahmud carried away was used to create a splendid capital city at Ghazni. He was interested in finding out more about the people he conquered, and entrusted a scholar named al-Biruni to write an account of the subcontinent. This Arabic work, known as the Kitab-al Hind, remains an important source for historians. He consulted Sanskrit scholars to prepare this account.
Sorry, the former is simply too graphic for a textbook intended for 11/12-year-olds, and I'm not sure why you chose the latter passage vs: "During his campaigns in the subcontinent [Ghazni] also attacked the temples of defeated kings and looted their wealth and idols. Sultan Mahmud was not a very important ruler at that time. But by destroying
temples – especially the one at Somnath – he tried to
win credit as a great hero of Islam. In the political
culture of the Middle Ages most rulers displayed their
political might and military success by attacking and
looting the places of worship of defeated rulers."
An example of meddling with history, at least in South India, is how Tipu Sultan and Hyder Ali are portrayed.
There are many areas in Karnataka that have suffered from their plunder, and all we see in text books is that they are heroes, because they fought against British.
Now, if you are a muslim in S.India, you'll not speak out against this portrayal. If you are a Kodava (people from Coorg), you'll be seething red with any such portrayals of Tipu and Hyder Ali, because they plundered, massacred, raped and forcefully convereted hundreds of thousands after every attack.
Now if Osama Bin Laden was a figure from pre 18th century India, I bet he'd be revered as a hero in Indian school textbooks and movie industry.
There are many areas in Karnataka that have suffered from their plunder, and all we see in text books is that they are heroes, because they fought against British.
Now, if you are a muslim in S.India, you'll not speak out against this portrayal. If you are a Kodava (people from Coorg), you'll be seething red with any such portrayals of Tipu and Hyder Ali, because they plundered, massacred, raped and forcefully convereted hundreds of thousands after every attack.
Now if Osama Bin Laden was a figure from pre 18th century India, I bet he'd be revered as a hero in Indian school textbooks and movie industry.
You can look at any area in India and you would see these stories, because that is how Kings work.
How do you think Ashoka built his empire? Techniques weren't any different than what Aurangzeb used. Or what Romans used, or what the Persians used or what the Greeks used.
Wars work that way.
Also there is a reason why 'foreign culture' gets acceptance in any culture. If you deny education, commerce and other social opportunities to your masses for millenniums they are bound to be attracted to other cultures even if they are foreign. If anything they get a divorce for their unbearable current affairs. A foreign ruler comes across way more acceptable than the existing domestic ruler who doesn't let you study, doesn't let you participate in war, doesn't let you trade and large looks down on your as some sort of slave labor whose sole purpose is tax revenue. Easiest escape from these scenarios is to change your identity- Change language, religion, culture, residence etc.
If this is what troubles you, then the solution to this is not rewriting history, but pushing for equality and upliftment of those who have been suffering for thousands of years. And that of course involves dismantling social structures and privileges that have existed for all thousands of years.
Otherwise all this is just an exercise in futility. You can rewrite what you like, and if the conditions on the ground don't improve, people will toss out whatever their current identity is and just move on to whatever works for them. And don't blame them, its not exactly wrong to want to live a good life.
How do you think Ashoka built his empire? Techniques weren't any different than what Aurangzeb used. Or what Romans used, or what the Persians used or what the Greeks used.
Wars work that way.
Also there is a reason why 'foreign culture' gets acceptance in any culture. If you deny education, commerce and other social opportunities to your masses for millenniums they are bound to be attracted to other cultures even if they are foreign. If anything they get a divorce for their unbearable current affairs. A foreign ruler comes across way more acceptable than the existing domestic ruler who doesn't let you study, doesn't let you participate in war, doesn't let you trade and large looks down on your as some sort of slave labor whose sole purpose is tax revenue. Easiest escape from these scenarios is to change your identity- Change language, religion, culture, residence etc.
If this is what troubles you, then the solution to this is not rewriting history, but pushing for equality and upliftment of those who have been suffering for thousands of years. And that of course involves dismantling social structures and privileges that have existed for all thousands of years.
Otherwise all this is just an exercise in futility. You can rewrite what you like, and if the conditions on the ground don't improve, people will toss out whatever their current identity is and just move on to whatever works for them. And don't blame them, its not exactly wrong to want to live a good life.
I chose the passage to highlight the gross distortion:
"He was interested in finding out more about the people he conquered, and entrusted a scholar named al-Biruni to write an account of the subcontinent"
No. He was not interested in finding out more about the people he conquered. The biographical works of his time are very clear - he wanted the loot and he wanted to get rid of the infidels and idol worshippers.
"He was interested in finding out more about the people he conquered, and entrusted a scholar named al-Biruni to write an account of the subcontinent"
No. He was not interested in finding out more about the people he conquered. The biographical works of his time are very clear - he wanted the loot and he wanted to get rid of the infidels and idol worshippers.
Also, try reading the account of historians of the period and compare the description of brutality - mountains of skulls, 100,000 infidels (taken as slaves) put to death overnight, etc. with the description in your favorite history text which probably says "Timur ransacked Delhi".
Sure, if we are talking about this sort of stuff, let's do away with Hindi language being mandatory. We already have English as a common language. And you guys are suggesting local culture and its history comes first. So local state language and english should be enough.
One less subject means we could add a 'History' elective to high school syllabus.
Those who are interested can opt for it. Others can opt for whatever they want(Math, Economics, etc etc).
One less subject means we could add a 'History' elective to high school syllabus.
Those who are interested can opt for it. Others can opt for whatever they want(Math, Economics, etc etc).
Why English?
>> There is an assumption that the education system currently is in 'mess'. That is not true.
Oh please stop with that attitude. You must have gone to a good private school with good teachers and expensive tuition classes after school to get to where you are today. Just look at the schools that economically backward children go to today and try taking their classes. This comes from someone who has personally gone to some classes in those schools (especially in rural areas). Ground reality is that the education system is really a mess. This is not an assumption.
Oh please stop with that attitude. You must have gone to a good private school with good teachers and expensive tuition classes after school to get to where you are today. Just look at the schools that economically backward children go to today and try taking their classes. This comes from someone who has personally gone to some classes in those schools (especially in rural areas). Ground reality is that the education system is really a mess. This is not an assumption.
Universal health care, education and food security are long shot problems. Impossible to solve to solve on the short term problems in India.
Its just the scale. There aren't enough tax payers, or the scale of the economy to collect that much taxes to fund these sort of policies. The population is mind boggling. At the state level there are still many policies to solve these which are being chased. But its not a easy problem to solve for our population numbers.
There is an even deeper problem of tax accountability you need to fix and go on to these things. This mostly a policy problem.
The parent is trying to imply a problem with the content of education syllabus.
Its just the scale. There aren't enough tax payers, or the scale of the economy to collect that much taxes to fund these sort of policies. The population is mind boggling. At the state level there are still many policies to solve these which are being chased. But its not a easy problem to solve for our population numbers.
There is an even deeper problem of tax accountability you need to fix and go on to these things. This mostly a policy problem.
The parent is trying to imply a problem with the content of education syllabus.
>> to fix the education system that has been messed by the previous administration.
To be sure, 'administrations' would be better word, given what the current ruling party did to school text-books, in its earlier regime during 1998-2004. See this snippet from 'Argumentative Indian' by Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=gcGiwyBS3YwC&lpg=PT29&vq...
To be sure, 'administrations' would be better word, given what the current ruling party did to school text-books, in its earlier regime during 1998-2004. See this snippet from 'Argumentative Indian' by Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=gcGiwyBS3YwC&lpg=PT29&vq...
Not more of this pearl-clutching sensationalist reporting. India has shown no signs (any more than before) of the Hindu nationalism that was supposed to sweep the nation once Modi came to power. He is no more Hindu nationalist than Shashi "Why I am a Hindu" Tharoor (one can't give it away, the other can't pay for it).
Modi will fall, oh sure, Modi will fall. But mostly because he did not deliver on all his promises of economic miracles, which really, being a pragmatic people, is mostly what Indians care about. Indians are either too smart or too busy (or both) to care about the nuances of history as written in text books for children (which they only read before the exams to regurgiate).
Modi will fall, oh sure, Modi will fall. But mostly because he did not deliver on all his promises of economic miracles, which really, being a pragmatic people, is mostly what Indians care about. Indians are either too smart or too busy (or both) to care about the nuances of history as written in text books for children (which they only read before the exams to regurgiate).
>> India has shown no signs (any more than before) of the Hindu nationalism that was supposed to sweep the nation once Modi came to power.
I see a bubble here. There have been plenty of killings in the name of "beef"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Dadri_mob_lynching) etc., for starters.
The social media/MSM discourse is more polarized than ever. The actions (or more importantly, inactions) of this government have given a clear indication that spreading venom of hatred is cool, and that "Hindu vs. Muslim" debate is still important and relevant.
I see a bubble here. There have been plenty of killings in the name of "beef"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Dadri_mob_lynching) etc., for starters.
The social media/MSM discourse is more polarized than ever. The actions (or more importantly, inactions) of this government have given a clear indication that spreading venom of hatred is cool, and that "Hindu vs. Muslim" debate is still important and relevant.
Because they are preparing to roll out their agenda in their second term. They cannot jeopardise it by being too open about it now before the next elections.
There are working committees in the RSS already drafting amendments to the constitution.
There are working committees in the RSS already drafting amendments to the constitution.
How do you know about this? Do you know people working on it?
I think he is talking about this article: https://thewire.in/43846/rss-ideologue-govindacharya-we-will...
Doesn't mean anything at all. But its not like the news is alien. This sort of thing just keeps coming up in the news all the time.
Doesn't mean anything at all. But its not like the news is alien. This sort of thing just keeps coming up in the news all the time.
TheWire is a known propaganda machine. Just look how much in cahoots with the old Govt their founders Siddharth Varadarajan and the other guy were in. They were paid by funds from the previous Vice President for absolutely nothing
These people can talk whatever they want...does not mean that government is out to eliminate everyone else who is not Hindu. If they had influence, we would have seen this happen a long time ago. Indian society is maturing faster than any news article can summarize. Common people in India are too busy feeding their families now than to think of where they came from.
[deleted]
If you really thought there were going to be quick miracles the problem, I'm sorry lies with you. Miracles were a soundbite.
The plan is for a long term and organic growth. You cannot not congratulate him for making gutsy decisions. The hugely unpopular demonetization.
The plan is for a long term and organic growth. You cannot not congratulate him for making gutsy decisions. The hugely unpopular demonetization.
>>The plan is for a long term and organic growth.
>>The hugely unpopular demonetization.
Pick one.
>>The hugely unpopular demonetization.
Pick one.
Wasn't banning beef support of Hindu nationalism?
Excluding Taj Mahal really!!!
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/ta...
Excluding Taj Mahal really!!!
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/ta...
India's history has always been written to suit a political purpose. The Nehru family (and their cabal of left historians - ideologically influenced by the former USSR) has deliberately tinkered with our history since independence, and the holier-than-thou stance of the article is extremely hypocritical. You only realize how much is manipulated when you start ploughing through the original reference material. The evidence of a whitewashed history we've been fed all these years is damning.
"History has always been written to suit a political purpose. " It's not just India.
That being said, the RSS is a malign organization, and their official view of history is loony.
That being said, the RSS is a malign organization, and their official view of history is loony.
Yup. They do a lot of damage by helping people after natural calamities.
Yeah, surely there's no history of right-wing organizations gathering support by engaging in public welfare operations.
Not sure if you are justifying the present government's stance or finding faults with a government that is no longer in power.
I am not sure if "X-1 used to do this too" is a valid argument to "X is using it's power to rewrite history to suit their beliefs".
I am not sure if "X-1 used to do this too" is a valid argument to "X is using it's power to rewrite history to suit their beliefs".
If X did a mistake and Y can correct it that is no reason to call it rewriting of history. This in fact means that what existed was biased
‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.'
-- 1984 (George Orwell)
-- 1984 (George Orwell)
I can assure you the previous Govt. which rules for 60+ years did the same and i feel a lot of this changed the character of the country. We need to reverse some of these changes so that we are proud of our heritage.
One of the qualities of India that I've appreciated growing up in modern India is how welcoming it is to all religions despite being super racist / castetist. As a Sikh who has cut his hair, I'm not sure what religion I belong to from an official standpoint (in the sense that what box I should tick on a Govt. form).
However, I can see how this could make a lot of people happy with BJP given their biases (and fear) against the Muslim population that is popularly perceived as the most rapidly growing religion in all neighborhoods across India.
However, I can see how this could make a lot of people happy with BJP given their biases (and fear) against the Muslim population that is popularly perceived as the most rapidly growing religion in all neighborhoods across India.
It's not just perception, the data states that Islam is experiencing the most growth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth
Not surprising, they have tons of children which you can easily see if you've been to various countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth
Not surprising, they have tons of children which you can easily see if you've been to various countries.
Disappointed to see this on HN . They are among the poorest and most marginalized communities in the country . Their population growth when correcting for their economic status is not that much higher than the rest.
Correcting for their economic status still doesn't make the statement you reply to untrue.
What could be disappointing about data? Poor or rich, population changes can cause changes in lifestyle and the social order in general, hence the relevance of knowing that it is real and not just perceived or bias.
I think the point is that this muslim population growth isn't real, in the sense that the implied causation is wrong. Those people don't get more children because they are muslim but because they are poor, as poor people generally get more children all over the world (e.g. African Americans in the U.S. are both over-represented among the poor and grow as a share of the overall population in the U.S.)
There are tenets of Islam that encourage increasing their population and/or having multiple wives (see Saudi Arabia and some of the countries around it). So I would not postulate that they have more children only because they are poor. Also the data shows a higher childbirth rate for wealthy Muslims also.
There is a similar belief for evangelical Christians and hasidic Jews, and those populations also have more children than average.
There is a similar belief for evangelical Christians and hasidic Jews, and those populations also have more children than average.
I don't think it is worried plan. Textbook treats history of india as only Mughals and British. That is not only history of India, they are just adding old history as well.
>>Textbook treats history of india as only Mughals and British.
History goes as back it as it can go. Unless you wish to transform the entire school syllabus into a kind of a history specialization there is no way you can teach all of Indian history. At the same time, you have to teach history whose effects are relevant to you.
This is the biggest dilemma that Indians face throughout. You have to learn in which language? Most likely in almost everybody's case that is 'English'. So you have to talk about that bit of history in great details given the effects of colonization reflect on the masses and their culture even now.
North India relishes Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani poetry, movies, songs and all based on literary legacy of the Mughals. Heck even to a great extent food and clothing habits come from that era. So you have to talk about them.
Then you go as far as you can go and talk a little about people like Ashoka etc. But then again, it makes no sense to keep talking about era of bygones which doesn't influence the current state of affairs in any real way. Or like I said, you just have to toss out other subjects and just teach history.
History goes as back it as it can go. Unless you wish to transform the entire school syllabus into a kind of a history specialization there is no way you can teach all of Indian history. At the same time, you have to teach history whose effects are relevant to you.
This is the biggest dilemma that Indians face throughout. You have to learn in which language? Most likely in almost everybody's case that is 'English'. So you have to talk about that bit of history in great details given the effects of colonization reflect on the masses and their culture even now.
North India relishes Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani poetry, movies, songs and all based on literary legacy of the Mughals. Heck even to a great extent food and clothing habits come from that era. So you have to talk about them.
Then you go as far as you can go and talk a little about people like Ashoka etc. But then again, it makes no sense to keep talking about era of bygones which doesn't influence the current state of affairs in any real way. Or like I said, you just have to toss out other subjects and just teach history.
You are severely and grossly underestimating the influence of ancient culture on our everyday lives in India - a living example of what whitewashing of our history has achieved.
In the words of B B Lal, director of the Archaeological Survey of India:
...the application by married Hindu women of vermilion (sindūra) in the partition line of the hair on the head, the wearing of multiple bangles on the arms and of pāyala around the ankles; practice of yogic exercises; worshipping Lord Shiva, even in the form of liṅga-cum-yoni; performing rituals using fire-altars, using sacred symbols like the svastika; and so on. Indeed, be not surprised if I told you that the way you greet each other with namaste goes back to the Harappan times. Above all, even some of the folk tales, like those of ‘A Thirsty Crow’ or ‘The Cunning Fox’, which grandmothers narrate to the children while putting them to sleep originated in the Harappan times.
https://www.newsgram.com/vedic-and-harappan-are-respectively...
In the words of B B Lal, director of the Archaeological Survey of India:
...the application by married Hindu women of vermilion (sindūra) in the partition line of the hair on the head, the wearing of multiple bangles on the arms and of pāyala around the ankles; practice of yogic exercises; worshipping Lord Shiva, even in the form of liṅga-cum-yoni; performing rituals using fire-altars, using sacred symbols like the svastika; and so on. Indeed, be not surprised if I told you that the way you greet each other with namaste goes back to the Harappan times. Above all, even some of the folk tales, like those of ‘A Thirsty Crow’ or ‘The Cunning Fox’, which grandmothers narrate to the children while putting them to sleep originated in the Harappan times.
https://www.newsgram.com/vedic-and-harappan-are-respectively...
I don't personally think that only those part of history needs to be teach that is relevant to generations.
>> it makes no sense to keep talking
Indian flag has Ashoka chakra in middle.
>> it makes no sense to keep talking
Indian flag has Ashoka chakra in middle.
So feel free to opt for history courses as part of your under graduate, graduate and higher level studies. Let's see how many people will quit their jobs and sign up for this if they are truly passionate about it.
There are totally 3 text books that you can teach as a part of serious history in high school. Then there is also a part related to world history and other civics education which is very important.
How much history do you think be stuffed in those 3 books? Then you have to also divide between contemporary, middle and ancient history. You could cut any century in Indian history and you could come up with 10s to 100s of kings with tons of history for each of them. Want to study it, don't go into Engineering or Medicine or Law or whatever. Opt for a B.A/M.A etc and study history full time.
Contemporary history is always easy to relate to current times than something 5000 years back.
There are totally 3 text books that you can teach as a part of serious history in high school. Then there is also a part related to world history and other civics education which is very important.
How much history do you think be stuffed in those 3 books? Then you have to also divide between contemporary, middle and ancient history. You could cut any century in Indian history and you could come up with 10s to 100s of kings with tons of history for each of them. Want to study it, don't go into Engineering or Medicine or Law or whatever. Opt for a B.A/M.A etc and study history full time.
Contemporary history is always easy to relate to current times than something 5000 years back.
I agree with you actually. Having studied ICSE growing up, those 2 topics are the most prominent parts of Indian history in my memory, after which come Maratha and Rajput history.
I remember studying in Pune i had some ICSE friends who did not care or knew much about Shivaji and his contributions.
Imagine this happening in Tamil Nadu.
Imagine this happening in Tamil Nadu.
>>Imagine this happening in Tamil Nadu.
So Tamil Nadu, has its own rich history, literary heritage, food habits, clothes, festivals etc etc. Going back to thousands of years. Same with Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka or Kerala.
Why do you expect they study Maharashtra's history?
So Tamil Nadu, has its own rich history, literary heritage, food habits, clothes, festivals etc etc. Going back to thousands of years. Same with Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka or Kerala.
Why do you expect they study Maharashtra's history?
Even in my MH board i have studied about most South Indian empires from Cholas, Krishnadevaraya, Harihara and Bukka and so on. They were never excluded and made a point to include prominent contributions from all part of the country as we define it now.
>> They were never excluded and made a point to include prominent contributions from all part of the country as we define it now.
So sufficient enough history is being taught.
That should settle the discussion.
So sufficient enough history is being taught.
That should settle the discussion.
Rewrite history in India? Isn't that what Christian and Muslim invaders did for the last 500 years? They are not Hindu nationalists, they are just normal Indians taking back the narrative in their country.
Economic reforms and getting the government away from as much as possible should be their priority which I was hoping to see with Modi. This other stuff is not important. Also, I thought this (that Hinduism had been around in India long before Islam, the same way Zorastrianism was in Iran) was already accepted knowledge, I am surprised to hear it's not.
That Hinduism is older than Islam is an absolute no-brainer. Islam dates to the 8th century, whereas the oldest layers of the Vedas are likely 3000 to 4000 years old. The question is the origins of the Vedic religion and its adherents. For Hindutva, it's of vital importance that Hinduism originate in India, but as I understand the scientific consensus it's quite clear that the Aryans came into India from the outside and subjugated an extant population (likely Dravidian-speaking).
The “Aryan Invasion Theory” that you refer to has been thoroughly refuted by all serious historians. I can’t believe there are still people who propound such nonsense. There were no Aryans and no Dravidians. The Vedas originated in what is present day India and it is the original indigenous culture of that land.
Could you please provide any references for the refutation?
I vaguely remember coming across a study based on genetics that implied the flow of migration was probably from east to west.
FWIW, I find it amusing that the term used is Invasion and not Migration. Reminds me of the asymmetric application of the term expat instead of immigrant when people move to different countries.
I vaguely remember coming across a study based on genetics that implied the flow of migration was probably from east to west.
FWIW, I find it amusing that the term used is Invasion and not Migration. Reminds me of the asymmetric application of the term expat instead of immigrant when people move to different countries.
Cite your 'all serious historians' and feel free to edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration
Also every one comes from some where. No one ever fell from the sky, or sprouted from earth.
Also every one comes from some where. No one ever fell from the sky, or sprouted from earth.
Read Breaking India by Rajiv Malhotra. Not everything you find on Wikipedia is true.
Conversely, almost everything written by unqualified hacks is probably false.
Islam dates to the 7th century. According to its doctrine, it is the ultimate and final refinement of Abrahamic faith. Muslims believe that every prophet going back to Adam were taught by the same God they believe in, and hence were also Muslim; according to Islam, Judaism and Christianity are the same breed of Abrahamic monotheism which has since been distorted by man. So if you asked a Muslim, they might tell you that Islam is the original religion.
For Hindutva, it's of vital importance that Hinduism originate in India
To clarify, I thought this was widely accepted already, that Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism all started in India. Islam and Christianity being started elsewhere.
To clarify, I thought this was widely accepted already, that Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism all started in India. Islam and Christianity being started elsewhere.
The Vedas almost certainly originated from outside, but the vast majority of the development of the religion took place in India.
This maybe too far fetched, but I wonder if rewriting Indian history textbooks to make India appear more Hindu could somehow potentially increase our pace towards adopting Uniform Civil Code in our constitution?
For Uniform Civil Code to be adopted, it is the Hindu marriage act which has to be supplanted as all the other communities have already opted for Special Marriage Act to register their marriages.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. You also have to navigate through all sorts of laws related to crime, food regulations, civil rights and bazillion other categories and basically get a society so diverse to agree on deeply conflicting issues.
Easier said than done. In many cases it might involve undoing a lot privilege in many sections of society.
Easier said than done. In many cases it might involve undoing a lot privilege in many sections of society.
Nobel laureate Amartya Sen outlines in his book 'The Argumentative Indian: Writings on Indian History, Culture and Identity', what the incumbent party did in its previous stint i.e. when ruling India during 1998-2004:
... What is its specific relevance in contemporary Indian politics, and why is Hindutva politics so keen on redescribing the past? I would argue that the answer lies in two specific features of contemporary Hindu politics
... The first is the need for the Hindutva movement to keep together its diverse components and to generate fresh loyalty from potential recruits... The second reason for focusing on India's past is the large support for the Hindutva movement that comes from the Indian diaspora abroad, particularly in North America and Europe, for whom it is quite important to be able to retain their general Indian nationalist attachment while embracing any other loyalty they may be persuaded to have (such as Hindutva)
... The rapidly reorganized National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) became busy, from shortly after the BJP's assumption of office, not only in producing fresh textbooks for Indian school children, but also in deleting sections from books produced earlier by NCERT itself ( under pre-BJP management), written by reputed Indian historians. The 'reorganization' of NCERT was accompanied by an 'overhaul' of the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), with new officers being appointed and a new agenda chosen for both, mainly in line with the priorities of the Hindutva movement
... School children were to be taught, in one of the textbooks, that Madagascar was 'an island in the Arabian sea' and that Lancashire had been 'a fast-growing industrial town' . The newly devised history of India in the new textbooks prepared by the Government of India received sharp criticism in the media and in public discussions that followed. The reviews in the major newspapers were almost uniformly disparaging. 'Bloomers Galore in the NCERT Texts', was the news headline in the Hindusthan Times
... one of the textbooks that was meant to teach Indian school children about the events surrounding India's independence failed to mention the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi by Nathuram Godse, the Hindu political fanatic who had links with the activist RSS (the Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh) - an omission of very considerable moment
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10310.The_Argumentative_...
... What is its specific relevance in contemporary Indian politics, and why is Hindutva politics so keen on redescribing the past? I would argue that the answer lies in two specific features of contemporary Hindu politics
... The first is the need for the Hindutva movement to keep together its diverse components and to generate fresh loyalty from potential recruits... The second reason for focusing on India's past is the large support for the Hindutva movement that comes from the Indian diaspora abroad, particularly in North America and Europe, for whom it is quite important to be able to retain their general Indian nationalist attachment while embracing any other loyalty they may be persuaded to have (such as Hindutva)
... The rapidly reorganized National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) became busy, from shortly after the BJP's assumption of office, not only in producing fresh textbooks for Indian school children, but also in deleting sections from books produced earlier by NCERT itself ( under pre-BJP management), written by reputed Indian historians. The 'reorganization' of NCERT was accompanied by an 'overhaul' of the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), with new officers being appointed and a new agenda chosen for both, mainly in line with the priorities of the Hindutva movement
... School children were to be taught, in one of the textbooks, that Madagascar was 'an island in the Arabian sea' and that Lancashire had been 'a fast-growing industrial town' . The newly devised history of India in the new textbooks prepared by the Government of India received sharp criticism in the media and in public discussions that followed. The reviews in the major newspapers were almost uniformly disparaging. 'Bloomers Galore in the NCERT Texts', was the news headline in the Hindusthan Times
... one of the textbooks that was meant to teach Indian school children about the events surrounding India's independence failed to mention the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi by Nathuram Godse, the Hindu political fanatic who had links with the activist RSS (the Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh) - an omission of very considerable moment
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10310.The_Argumentative_...
I don't understand why was this upvoted at all? This topic is as divisive as NRA or Trump in USA.
IMO, these politically charged discussions should be kept off HN.
IMO, these politically charged discussions should be kept off HN.
I agree with this. The topic is vast and number of opinions will be equal to number of people.
And exactly what is getting discussed here? Hindu propaganda, patriarchal hierarchy, education system, Muslim and British attacks?
No point in discussing such issues on HN.
At least create different threads for different topic.
In the book 'Beyond the Hoax: Science, Philosophy and Culture', author Alan Sokal, Math Professor at University College London, writes under the heading 'Hindu nationalism and Vedic-Science' in 'Pseudoscience and Postmodernism' chapter:
On February 23, 2001, the University Grants Commission (UGC) — the central government body overseeing the funding of higher education in India — announced that
"there is an urgent need to rejuvenate the science of Vedic Astrology in India, to allow this scientific knowledge to reach to the society at large and to provide opportunities to get this important science even exported to the world ... [Accordingly,] the Commission decided to approve in principle [the] setting up of a few departments of Vedic Astrology in Indian universities ... leading to certificate diploma, under-graduate, post-graduate and Ph.D. degrees."
The plan provoked a storm of protest from Indian scientists and rationalist intellectuals. But what on earth prompted such a bizarre decision in the first place? The answer, not surprisingly, is politics: more precisely, the Hindu nationalist politics of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which governed India between March 1998 and May 2004. The BJP is the political expression of a multifaceted mass movement for Hindutva, or “Hindu-ness”, “an ultranationalist and chauvinistic movement that seeks to modernize India by recovering the supposedly pristine Vedic-Hindu roots of Indian culture”.As part of its program for the Hinduization of Indian education, the BJP rewrote school history textbooks to excise the contributions of Muslims and other non-Hindus, and promoted university-level courses not only in Vedic Astrology (Jyotir Vigyari) but also in karmakanda (Hindu priestly rituals), vastu shastra (sacred architectural rules), “human consciousness and Yogic science”, and “Vedic mathematics”
... Contemporary Hindu-nationalist intellectuals, many of whom are trained scientists and engineers, have brought this art to an even higher level of refinement. For instance, Subhash Kak, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at Louisiana State University and one of the leading intellectual luminaries of the Hindu-nationalist diaspora, claims to find “astronomical codes” in the Rig Veda's descriptions of ritual fire altars, using a method that, as Nanda wryly observes, “is breathtakingly ad hoc and reads like numerology 101”.Even more ludicrously, #Raja Ram Mohan Roy asserts that “the Vedas are a coded book ... of particle physics and cosmology”: thus, verses referring to wild and domestic animals are really alluding to fermions and bosons, respectively; passages recounting the destruction of black-skinned people are in fact “about annihilation of anti-matter”; and the phrase “ten-finger form” in the Purusa hymn gives us “compelling evidence of [the] universe being considered ten-dimensional in Vedic cosmology”, just as in modem superstring theory.
#A contemporary author, not to be confused with the early-nineteenth-century Indian reformer of the same name.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2036727.Beyond_the_Hoax
On February 23, 2001, the University Grants Commission (UGC) — the central government body overseeing the funding of higher education in India — announced that
"there is an urgent need to rejuvenate the science of Vedic Astrology in India, to allow this scientific knowledge to reach to the society at large and to provide opportunities to get this important science even exported to the world ... [Accordingly,] the Commission decided to approve in principle [the] setting up of a few departments of Vedic Astrology in Indian universities ... leading to certificate diploma, under-graduate, post-graduate and Ph.D. degrees."
The plan provoked a storm of protest from Indian scientists and rationalist intellectuals. But what on earth prompted such a bizarre decision in the first place? The answer, not surprisingly, is politics: more precisely, the Hindu nationalist politics of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which governed India between March 1998 and May 2004. The BJP is the political expression of a multifaceted mass movement for Hindutva, or “Hindu-ness”, “an ultranationalist and chauvinistic movement that seeks to modernize India by recovering the supposedly pristine Vedic-Hindu roots of Indian culture”.As part of its program for the Hinduization of Indian education, the BJP rewrote school history textbooks to excise the contributions of Muslims and other non-Hindus, and promoted university-level courses not only in Vedic Astrology (Jyotir Vigyari) but also in karmakanda (Hindu priestly rituals), vastu shastra (sacred architectural rules), “human consciousness and Yogic science”, and “Vedic mathematics”
... Contemporary Hindu-nationalist intellectuals, many of whom are trained scientists and engineers, have brought this art to an even higher level of refinement. For instance, Subhash Kak, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at Louisiana State University and one of the leading intellectual luminaries of the Hindu-nationalist diaspora, claims to find “astronomical codes” in the Rig Veda's descriptions of ritual fire altars, using a method that, as Nanda wryly observes, “is breathtakingly ad hoc and reads like numerology 101”.Even more ludicrously, #Raja Ram Mohan Roy asserts that “the Vedas are a coded book ... of particle physics and cosmology”: thus, verses referring to wild and domestic animals are really alluding to fermions and bosons, respectively; passages recounting the destruction of black-skinned people are in fact “about annihilation of anti-matter”; and the phrase “ten-finger form” in the Purusa hymn gives us “compelling evidence of [the] universe being considered ten-dimensional in Vedic cosmology”, just as in modem superstring theory.
#A contemporary author, not to be confused with the early-nineteenth-century Indian reformer of the same name.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2036727.Beyond_the_Hoax
The Arabic countries led by Muslims were the most advanced scientists/engineers in the world until they let religious bigots/radicals take over. Just saying Modi/RSS/BJP...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engi...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engi...
The Wikipedia page doesn't seem to support the thesis. One can plausibly argue for quite the contrary, IMHO. In fact, many outstanding scholars in STEM of that era, including a few names in the cited Wikipedia page, were also religious scholars (jurisprudence, theology, hadith etc.). Arabs were so much lost before the advent of Islam that the neighboring Persians and Romans apparently had little to no interest in them. History is more complicated/nuanced of course, but these are important points.
Early Islamic philosophy was positive towards scientific principles, later Islamic philosophy actively hostile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philoso...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philoso...
Agreed mostly. But again the picture is more complicated than what a single sentence or two can convey.
Curiously, many of the lethargy, idleness and sense of pointlessness came through sufism. Sufism itself has also many roots (including Greek, and later Andalusian twists), and has a wide spectrum. Ghazzali (the author of The Incoherence) himself was heavily affected by Sufi themes before he wrote 'the Incoherence'; but that book, a rationalist attack on some form of rationalism itself, has many valid points though.
Curiously, many of the lethargy, idleness and sense of pointlessness came through sufism. Sufism itself has also many roots (including Greek, and later Andalusian twists), and has a wide spectrum. Ghazzali (the author of The Incoherence) himself was heavily affected by Sufi themes before he wrote 'the Incoherence'; but that book, a rationalist attack on some form of rationalism itself, has many valid points though.
While i agree that Islam has contributed a great deal to science. It is disingenuous to use that as a defense for all things Islam especially contemporary.
A classical example is that Arabic numerals were essentially Indian numbers (including zero) that were introduced to the West by Arab traders. If one purely talks about timelines there are many unappreciated parts of Indian history and contributions created locally that predate Islam and Christianity.
This is not a contest but just trying to highlight the facts. Some Indians do not like the pride taken in these things but that is a separate issue
A classical example is that Arabic numerals were essentially Indian numbers (including zero) that were introduced to the West by Arab traders. If one purely talks about timelines there are many unappreciated parts of Indian history and contributions created locally that predate Islam and Christianity.
This is not a contest but just trying to highlight the facts. Some Indians do not like the pride taken in these things but that is a separate issue
Modi/RSS/BJP will not appreciate democracy/diversity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triarchy_%28theory%29
They promote hierarchies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_in_Hinduism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triarchy_%28theory%29
They promote hierarchies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_in_Hinduism
What nonsense
Wow, the west remains as clueless of Indian politics as ever and the media continues its hit jobs and agenda
The current government, under the façade of "Hindu Nationalism" is doing zilch (at least until now, nothing noticeable) to fix the education system that has been messed by the previous administration.
No matter how much you tweak with history, its not going to be effective if education system is left in shambles.Adding to that is the ministry of education, that knows how to troll bait international and Indian media, which tends to follow a certain ideology (thats not 'Hindu Nationalist').
With that said, having read more and more content from independent authors (not funded by an institution, publicly) I believe Indian history needs a thorough redo.
Problem is not with misinformation, but with lack of adequate information. The 1% of history gets 99% focus, whereas an equally amazing 99% is not mentioned, either due to laziness or due to scheming history writers, wanting to support a particular ideology.
Whats worse, is an Indian kid learns more about 200 to 400 yr old architecture around the world, but zilch about a 1000yr old fort or a temple in his/her own state.
Whatever the effort of rewriting history, as claimed in this article is, it is not going to have any serious effect, other than a few progressive-liberal news outlets hyperventilating on a non-issue that will be forgotten when Trump/Putin/KimJongUn et al throw a new troll-bait.