Suicides Have Increased. Is This an Existential Crisis?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Suicides Have Increased. Is This an Existential Crisis?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/opinion/sunday/suicide-rate-existential-crisis.html
175 comments
I'll be honest: I prefer it this way.
I spent more time than I care to think about in the sort of town where everyone who knew you had known you forever. And probably your family. And probably had opinions about your church. I'm absolutely certain that many of them loved living there, and that plenty of people would. For my own part, I found it stifling.
After that, living in a place where my community is something I assemble myself from the people I choose is amazing. I have a sense of belonging. I have a home and a community. It's just not defined by the archaic assumptions around immediate physical proximity.
Also, Americans have always been a footloose lot. If anything, we collectively move a lot less now - https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-189...
I'm absolutely sure that the narrative of how people are moving now like never before feels true. It carries with it all the right emotions. It just could be more congruent with facts.
I spent more time than I care to think about in the sort of town where everyone who knew you had known you forever. And probably your family. And probably had opinions about your church. I'm absolutely certain that many of them loved living there, and that plenty of people would. For my own part, I found it stifling.
After that, living in a place where my community is something I assemble myself from the people I choose is amazing. I have a sense of belonging. I have a home and a community. It's just not defined by the archaic assumptions around immediate physical proximity.
Also, Americans have always been a footloose lot. If anything, we collectively move a lot less now - https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-189...
I'm absolutely sure that the narrative of how people are moving now like never before feels true. It carries with it all the right emotions. It just could be more congruent with facts.
That's a good counterpoint; I too remember growing up in a (relatively) small town where a lot of people knew each other, and there was a LOT of gossiping and talking about other people - like e.g. when they didn't show up for church (again), they'd get Talked About.
I'd rather not get Talked About so staying anonymous is better.
Of course, I'm sure my current neighbours Talk About me sometimes, about how I don't really do much besides leave and get home every day.
I'd rather not get Talked About so staying anonymous is better.
Of course, I'm sure my current neighbours Talk About me sometimes, about how I don't really do much besides leave and get home every day.
"my community is something I assemble myself". How can someone do that? What kind of community you live in?
The general form goes like this:
* Be in new area, knowing few people.
* Find things you like that are at least moderately social.
* Do said things, both to enjoy them and to meet people.
* Having made some friends, either attend or organize events to turn a collection of friends into a social circle.
Now you have a nascent community. If it works, it will tend to grow over time. It can take time and be error-prone, but also sometimes you get lucky and stumble into an existing social circle that fits you.
It's worked out OK for me in a half-dozen places over the past ten years since college.
* Be in new area, knowing few people.
* Find things you like that are at least moderately social.
* Do said things, both to enjoy them and to meet people.
* Having made some friends, either attend or organize events to turn a collection of friends into a social circle.
Now you have a nascent community. If it works, it will tend to grow over time. It can take time and be error-prone, but also sometimes you get lucky and stumble into an existing social circle that fits you.
It's worked out OK for me in a half-dozen places over the past ten years since college.
I had very similar views when I was student living in dorm. There was a lot of open people who shared my passions of the time and wanted to hang out.
Decade later I found myself in situation opposite to that.
Decade later I found myself in situation opposite to that.
>it was a different time, people moved into a house, stayed there, raised a family, their kids grew up, and came back to visit their parents.... Now days? Everyone moves. A lot. Chasing jobs, dreams, hopes, and aspirations. We aren't in one place long enough to form a sense of being or community.
No, This is just factually incorrect.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-189...
>NOV. 16, 2016 —The percentage of Americans moving over a one-year period fell to an all time low in the United States to 11.2 percent in 2016, according to tables released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.... “People in the United States are still moving, just not to the same extent as they did in the past,” David Ihrke said, a survey statistician in the Journey-to-Work and Migration Statistics Branch.
No, This is just factually incorrect.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-189...
>NOV. 16, 2016 —The percentage of Americans moving over a one-year period fell to an all time low in the United States to 11.2 percent in 2016, according to tables released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.... “People in the United States are still moving, just not to the same extent as they did in the past,” David Ihrke said, a survey statistician in the Journey-to-Work and Migration Statistics Branch.
The figures you cite don’t seem to say anything about the fraction of people who stay in one place for ~15 years.
Is it growing? Shrinking? The data you link says nothing, since it is just YoY mobility data. People moving in that year was at an all-time low. But this does not preclude, e.g. average five-year mobility for simultaneously being at an all-time high.
This isn’t a problem, except that you so assuredly state that the parent comment is “factually incorrect” while not actually providing data that would back up that claim.
Is it growing? Shrinking? The data you link says nothing, since it is just YoY mobility data. People moving in that year was at an all-time low. But this does not preclude, e.g. average five-year mobility for simultaneously being at an all-time high.
This isn’t a problem, except that you so assuredly state that the parent comment is “factually incorrect” while not actually providing data that would back up that claim.
Strikes a chord for me too. I came to Seattle from the midwest where I lived in a Craiglist house with a gang of besties. I met some people here (also via CL shared housing) but since I've paired up and settled in it's been really hard to maintain good relationships with friends. I looked out at the skyline and though, geez there must be tens of thousands of people within a mile radius, none of whom I have any means to communicate with. I was going to do a nextdoor-like startup for sharing tools, rides, events, etc. (it was too be called "neighborcasting") but I didn't pull it off due to engaging day job.
I've also been discouraged because it seems like very many people simply do not want to meet the people around them. For instance, check out this recent thread on the SeattleWA subreddit about talking on the bus [1]. I was kind of flabbergasted by how much people hate it when a stranger talks to them.
It's like there are just too many people and no one has time to connect with any of them in an unplanned fashion.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/8stzn9/featuring...
I've also been discouraged because it seems like very many people simply do not want to meet the people around them. For instance, check out this recent thread on the SeattleWA subreddit about talking on the bus [1]. I was kind of flabbergasted by how much people hate it when a stranger talks to them.
It's like there are just too many people and no one has time to connect with any of them in an unplanned fashion.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/8stzn9/featuring...
> For instance, check out this recent thread on the SeattleWA subreddit about talking on the bus [1].
Before smart phones it was different. Now an interruption is a distraction from our magic dopamine granting machines.
As someone who worked on early smartphones, I feel a twinge of guilt[0]. The addictive nature of the technology really has destroyed any semblance of mental down time that used to exist.
[0] I'd feel more, but Windows Phone didn't turn into a raging success, so I'll let the Android and iOS engineers contemplate the philosophical implications of their code!
Before smart phones it was different. Now an interruption is a distraction from our magic dopamine granting machines.
As someone who worked on early smartphones, I feel a twinge of guilt[0]. The addictive nature of the technology really has destroyed any semblance of mental down time that used to exist.
[0] I'd feel more, but Windows Phone didn't turn into a raging success, so I'll let the Android and iOS engineers contemplate the philosophical implications of their code!
Really, I do use it a lot, however I am astounded by the fact some people literally keep their faces at it all the time
When walking (pay attention to the traffic!). When riding the bus. When doing pretty much anything.
It does get boring after a while, to me at least. And looking at nature or other stuff is good.
But no, some people want to stay plugged 100% of the time in some silly freemium game.
When walking (pay attention to the traffic!). When riding the bus. When doing pretty much anything.
It does get boring after a while, to me at least. And looking at nature or other stuff is good.
But no, some people want to stay plugged 100% of the time in some silly freemium game.
> Before smart phones it was different.
Not for me. Crippling social anxiety means that anyone unknown talking to me causes panic. Especially on a bus in London which are reknowned for their, uh, "colourful" characters who may well be a harmless eccentric but could equally well be Stabby McStabberson or Robber McFeralYoot.
Not for me. Crippling social anxiety means that anyone unknown talking to me causes panic. Especially on a bus in London which are reknowned for their, uh, "colourful" characters who may well be a harmless eccentric but could equally well be Stabby McStabberson or Robber McFeralYoot.
London has gone down in the recent years, so I've heard. Do you also feel that?
No more than when I moved here nearly 20 years ago, really. There's more pressure on people (financial crash, austerity nonsense, etc.) but on the whole it seems fairly similar to me.
I spent a year in Seattle riding the bus to work. I couldn't tell you which one. The bus was a cold place for sure. To be surrounded by people all the time and have them all act as though no one else exists.
You have to keep in mind that these people are trying to go somewhere, and would rather be at their destination or anywhere else - nobody rides the bus for fun.
I guess you havn't been to Tokyo then.
There's another aspect I'd consider. The internet has allowed us to target who we connect with. Maybe randomness doesn't yield enough interesting connections and people got used to have exchanges online instead of random people.
I agree, my neighbours do have very active contacts but my wife is more of a loner, and happily so, she doesn't feel the need to go there and have a beer (and she's one of the most stable, happy and content personalities I know). I however do feel that need, I feel left out, I sometimes even get annoyed by my neighbors but of course they are not bad people and generally easy to talk to. I'm sure I'd be more happy having good relations with them and occasionally having a beer with them. My happiest times were when I'd spend more than half the week talking with good friends in bars (this was during my bachelors). Now with kids I don't do that anymore and I think I miss (need) it more that I realize. I love my kids and having a neighbor as a friend would make both possible, kids and a lot of social stuff. You can easily go over when the kid is a asleep for example, no need for a bar.
I would bemoan the general alienation of modern life myself.
But I think one can reasonably ask whether suicide rates have in tracked isolation and alienation overall. Isolation and atomization are a fairly old story, after and while, I wouldn't object to claims they've increased, it's hard to see suicide as a good proxy for these things.
Wikipedia's statistics seem suicides now as significantly greater than the early 2000's but still less than the 1970s. Can we really say anything specific about that?
None of this is saying you're on the wrong track. I simply would like to see better measures for these phenomena.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States
But I think one can reasonably ask whether suicide rates have in tracked isolation and alienation overall. Isolation and atomization are a fairly old story, after and while, I wouldn't object to claims they've increased, it's hard to see suicide as a good proxy for these things.
Wikipedia's statistics seem suicides now as significantly greater than the early 2000's but still less than the 1970s. Can we really say anything specific about that?
None of this is saying you're on the wrong track. I simply would like to see better measures for these phenomena.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States
I suppose a lot of them thought it was a sale, or a scam or something similar. Which is understandable.
But yes, it gets sad. Not wanting to buy the cookies is not an excuse to not saying hi casually.
But yes, it gets sad. Not wanting to buy the cookies is not an excuse to not saying hi casually.
They weren’t selling them, they were giving them.
I don’t charge my elderly neighbour when I have her around for drinks, I don’t charge when I mow next door’s lawn because I’m doing mine and I may as well. They don’t charge me when they look after my cats while I’m away, and just as I don’t charge them for apples from my trees they don’t charge me for cherries from theirs.
Not everything in life is mercenary, nor should it be.
I don’t charge my elderly neighbour when I have her around for drinks, I don’t charge when I mow next door’s lawn because I’m doing mine and I may as well. They don’t charge me when they look after my cats while I’m away, and just as I don’t charge them for apples from my trees they don’t charge me for cherries from theirs.
Not everything in life is mercenary, nor should it be.
> I suppose a lot of them thought it was a sale
You see people with packages knocking at your door you think they're selling them and you close the door before they have a chance to explain themselves.
You see people with packages knocking at your door you think they're selling them and you close the door before they have a chance to explain themselves.
These are people who see me walking around the complex though. Also it was December 27th or so, at 8pm! We introduced ourselves as saying we were from unit nnnn, we'd baked some holiday cookies and we'd love to share.
"No thanks", closed door.
"No thanks", closed door.
Sounds like one of those "overly friendly" sales pitches to me. Or worse, one of those "pretend you have a gift, forcefully demand payment" scams. Or even worse, Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses using baked goods as an in to talk to you with the real reason why they are there is to solicit you their religion.
People used to do something very similar to my grandma a lot, say they are there for something neighbourly and then put pressure on her to buy something when she interacted with them for a bit. It worked on her too, even though she never actually wanted to buy something.
I would have said no thanks and closed the door too and I don't have a problem associating with my neighbors at all! In fact, throughout the years I've shared with neighbors baked goods and beers, let them borrow tools, helped shovel snow, invited the young single one to "Friendsgiving dinner"[1] to make sure he had somewhere to go, offered help with various tasks, etc.
Most people want to have a bit of a rapport with someone before they are cool with unsolicited baked goods at 8 at night. Especially when you're knocking on people's doors, it can be very unsettling to be interrupted from what you are doing like that. At 8pm people with younger children are in the middle of putting them to bed, it's not like they have the energy to deal with potential scammers at the front door at that point.
What would have been appreciated is if you put the bags in a basket in the hallway with a sign "Merry Christmas from Joe Bob and Sally Doe in unit xxxx!"
[1] This is Thanksgiving dinner except with friends instead of family.
People used to do something very similar to my grandma a lot, say they are there for something neighbourly and then put pressure on her to buy something when she interacted with them for a bit. It worked on her too, even though she never actually wanted to buy something.
I would have said no thanks and closed the door too and I don't have a problem associating with my neighbors at all! In fact, throughout the years I've shared with neighbors baked goods and beers, let them borrow tools, helped shovel snow, invited the young single one to "Friendsgiving dinner"[1] to make sure he had somewhere to go, offered help with various tasks, etc.
Most people want to have a bit of a rapport with someone before they are cool with unsolicited baked goods at 8 at night. Especially when you're knocking on people's doors, it can be very unsettling to be interrupted from what you are doing like that. At 8pm people with younger children are in the middle of putting them to bed, it's not like they have the energy to deal with potential scammers at the front door at that point.
What would have been appreciated is if you put the bags in a basket in the hallway with a sign "Merry Christmas from Joe Bob and Sally Doe in unit xxxx!"
[1] This is Thanksgiving dinner except with friends instead of family.
I do think you are the voice of reason here. In the sense that they had the best intention but maybe not the best execution.
Sorry you have shitty neighbors. Were it me is take your cookies with pleasure and talk to you.
You said: “not wanting to buy the cookies”, which implies you see the cookies as being an economic transaction.
Well, you do that. I open my door to my neighbours, and don’t assume they’re paid schills. What a sad world you must live in.
Perhaps if you opened the door once in a while you might meet people, find new experiences, live a little - but if you assume that everyone is out to “get” you, then the only person diminishing your life is you.
And yes, I’ve ended up chatting to pushy door to door salesmen. I don’t buy their shit, and politely tell them that if they do come back, I’ll waste their time again.
Well, you do that. I open my door to my neighbours, and don’t assume they’re paid schills. What a sad world you must live in.
Perhaps if you opened the door once in a while you might meet people, find new experiences, live a little - but if you assume that everyone is out to “get” you, then the only person diminishing your life is you.
And yes, I’ve ended up chatting to pushy door to door salesmen. I don’t buy their shit, and politely tell them that if they do come back, I’ll waste their time again.
I don't think most people enjoy random visitation in North American and Northern Europe. In Holland, they promote neighbor encounters which are scheduled well in advance. Despite them not happening very often, they do seem to work in creating some cohesion.
[deleted]
I think it depends a ton on how the neighborhood is setup.
In both Portland and San Francisco my wife and I make an effort to regularly invite people over for BBQs, and introduce ourselves to new faces we meet on the street.
Don't get me wrong though we had someone close the blinds on us and not answer the door while handing out cookies when we moved in to SF. But, it was a 1/10 experience. Most folks were warm and welcoming.
Moving around a lot as a kid I I have experienced this lack of neighborliness in one out of the four houses I lived in. It was a large planned cookie-cutter suburb where there were no parks reachable by a >10m walk, and no stores reachable by >15m walk. The outcome was that you loaded into the car in the garage and drove to your destination rarely running into people.
In both Portland and San Francisco my wife and I make an effort to regularly invite people over for BBQs, and introduce ourselves to new faces we meet on the street.
Don't get me wrong though we had someone close the blinds on us and not answer the door while handing out cookies when we moved in to SF. But, it was a 1/10 experience. Most folks were warm and welcoming.
Moving around a lot as a kid I I have experienced this lack of neighborliness in one out of the four houses I lived in. It was a large planned cookie-cutter suburb where there were no parks reachable by a >10m walk, and no stores reachable by >15m walk. The outcome was that you loaded into the car in the garage and drove to your destination rarely running into people.
> In both Portland and San Francisco my wife and I make an effort to regularly invite people over for BBQs, and introduce ourselves to new faces we meet on the street.
Seattle is weird enough that there is a dedicated Wikipedia article about it, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
It is hard to explain this in a way that is believable.
As an example of how this works, my wife and I have tickets to go to an event with another couple. We need to discuss the logistics of transportation and timing, so 3 weeks in advance I send out a text asking if we can come over to chat about things (we live close by). He says sure, but they are driving home right now, he'll text us when he gets home and we can come over. No text is ever sent.
A few days later, I send another message, asking if it is a good time to come over. "Sure, we're not busy, come on over anytime!"
This couple is not especially flaky, for Seattle this is normal behavior.
It is how Seattle works. Planning the smallest of things is an exercise in frustration. If I am with a group of more than 4 people and a decision needs to be made on food, I just make it by fiat, because otherwise there is a non-trivial chance that restaurants will closed before people ever decide on where to go. (After the second time of not getting to eat, I just started doing the dictator thing.)
This is not just my experience, I have multiple friends (mostly from out of town), who report the same thing. Getting plans here nailed down is impossible.
(Plug: My startup aims solves this problem!)
Seattle is weird enough that there is a dedicated Wikipedia article about it, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
It is hard to explain this in a way that is believable.
As an example of how this works, my wife and I have tickets to go to an event with another couple. We need to discuss the logistics of transportation and timing, so 3 weeks in advance I send out a text asking if we can come over to chat about things (we live close by). He says sure, but they are driving home right now, he'll text us when he gets home and we can come over. No text is ever sent.
A few days later, I send another message, asking if it is a good time to come over. "Sure, we're not busy, come on over anytime!"
This couple is not especially flaky, for Seattle this is normal behavior.
It is how Seattle works. Planning the smallest of things is an exercise in frustration. If I am with a group of more than 4 people and a decision needs to be made on food, I just make it by fiat, because otherwise there is a non-trivial chance that restaurants will closed before people ever decide on where to go. (After the second time of not getting to eat, I just started doing the dictator thing.)
This is not just my experience, I have multiple friends (mostly from out of town), who report the same thing. Getting plans here nailed down is impossible.
(Plug: My startup aims solves this problem!)
The pessimistic view is that people become so apathetic that the dictator thing (blindly letting other people lead you) starts happening in government as well, instead of harmless restaurant choices.
I am this person - the one who will politely decline your offer and close the door.
I have no interest in meeting my neighbors. Having them come over unannounced would literally ruin my day.
It's not about you. It's about me wanting to choose when, where, and who to socially interact with.
I have no interest in meeting my neighbors. Having them come over unannounced would literally ruin my day.
It's not about you. It's about me wanting to choose when, where, and who to socially interact with.
> Having them come over unannounced would literally ruin my day.
You aren’t prepared for normal life and need help.
You aren’t prepared for normal life and need help.
I think from the surrounding stories we can see that this is in fact normal life and that he does not specifically need to get help for this. If it's not normal that people come by unannounced, then you do not need to learn to deal with that.
Of course, whether or not that is a healthy skill to have is a separate problem (I think it is). In this case your response is too extreme though.
Of course, whether or not that is a healthy skill to have is a separate problem (I think it is). In this case your response is too extreme though.
[deleted]
Seems we share common visions. We started with this 7 years ago, and built out a whole lot of technology besides this as well. Perhaps we can work together. My contact info is in my profile, reach out if you like...
2017: https://qbix.com/blog/index.php/2017/12/power-to-the-people/
2013: https://qbix.com/blog/2013/04/23/a-new-kind-of-platform/
2017: https://qbix.com/blog/index.php/2017/12/power-to-the-people/
2013: https://qbix.com/blog/2013/04/23/a-new-kind-of-platform/
I'm thinking of moving my startup from the bay area to a place like Champaign, IL.
Low cost of living, a great engineering town, and a small(er) town feel.
I have no sense of neighborhood in the bay area and stories like this make me want to move even more.
Low cost of living, a great engineering town, and a small(er) town feel.
I have no sense of neighborhood in the bay area and stories like this make me want to move even more.
Just to add to the anecdotes:
My father grew up in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia that had a very tight-knit community. Kids running around, everyone knew each other, etc. My grandparents (who've since passed) when I'd see them would talk about how it didn't feel like a community anymore. There weren't really kids and families anymore, just old people.
I grew up 5 minutes away and never felt much of a sense of community in my own neighborhood. My neighbors were mostly old people and I probably wouldn't have even recognized them.
The two places I've lived where I felt a strong sense of community were the college town I went to college in, and rural Japan where I'd spend a month out of my summers as a child living with my grandparents and attending school. In the latter the school went out of their way to make sure I had friends since I was the only foreigner there (eg. I remember a teacher literally telling the kids in class to hang out with me and invite me over to play. In America that would never happen). All the kids in each neighborhood walk to school together every morning so that helps as well. So does being able to bike/walk everywhere and not being dependent on a parent to drive you.
It's definitely tougher to meet people after you graduate school. I think a lot of people close themselves off once they enter the "real world". It's a shame.
My father grew up in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia that had a very tight-knit community. Kids running around, everyone knew each other, etc. My grandparents (who've since passed) when I'd see them would talk about how it didn't feel like a community anymore. There weren't really kids and families anymore, just old people.
I grew up 5 minutes away and never felt much of a sense of community in my own neighborhood. My neighbors were mostly old people and I probably wouldn't have even recognized them.
The two places I've lived where I felt a strong sense of community were the college town I went to college in, and rural Japan where I'd spend a month out of my summers as a child living with my grandparents and attending school. In the latter the school went out of their way to make sure I had friends since I was the only foreigner there (eg. I remember a teacher literally telling the kids in class to hang out with me and invite me over to play. In America that would never happen). All the kids in each neighborhood walk to school together every morning so that helps as well. So does being able to bike/walk everywhere and not being dependent on a parent to drive you.
It's definitely tougher to meet people after you graduate school. I think a lot of people close themselves off once they enter the "real world". It's a shame.
> everyone else did a quick open and shut
What do you mean by this? Were they polite about it?
That also sucks that your friends have moved away. The past two cities I've moved to, I've found weekly meetup.com groups for one of my interests and I've made some great friends that way. Many of my friends in my last city also moved away. We've been in California for about 4 years now and nobody has moved away yet, although I'm sure it will happen.
What do you mean by this? Were they polite about it?
That also sucks that your friends have moved away. The past two cities I've moved to, I've found weekly meetup.com groups for one of my interests and I've made some great friends that way. Many of my friends in my last city also moved away. We've been in California for about 4 years now and nobody has moved away yet, although I'm sure it will happen.
Clarified in my post. We were told "no thanks", "not interested", etc.
I live in a nice neighborhood (single family homes around here are 7 figures), and I could see people wearing work badges showing that they were at the same company as me! The behavior I saw was just surreal.
Shortly before I moved in, my complex held a potluck. No one came!
I live in a nice neighborhood (single family homes around here are 7 figures), and I could see people wearing work badges showing that they were at the same company as me! The behavior I saw was just surreal.
Shortly before I moved in, my complex held a potluck. No one came!
This is unanswerable of course but what can you do?
I wrote a lot more than this. Erased it. Wrote again. Erased.
I don't know if what you're talking about existed other than a short time in the last century. Really just two or three generations had that kind of life. What was life like before that? What can we do to change it? Is changing it for the better?
I wrote a lot more than this. Erased it. Wrote again. Erased.
I don't know if what you're talking about existed other than a short time in the last century. Really just two or three generations had that kind of life. What was life like before that? What can we do to change it? Is changing it for the better?
> This is unanswerable of course but what can you do?
I'm a technologist at heart, so the answer is always more technology! :)
I think I have a unique take on the problem and how to solve it, inverting the existing model for how the online->offline meeting of people works.
All in all, I'm hoping that the work I do can make people happier!
I'm a technologist at heart, so the answer is always more technology! :)
I think I have a unique take on the problem and how to solve it, inverting the existing model for how the online->offline meeting of people works.
All in all, I'm hoping that the work I do can make people happier!
Is this a US thing? I got the impression that neighbors tended to be a lot more friendly when I was traveling through Europe.
(One of the many reasons I’d consider a move.)
(One of the many reasons I’d consider a move.)
Do you realize that some people feel stress when someone comes unannounced? Opt-in interaction like in your startup is so much better!
I looked at your website. Could you explain more about what you're planning to do?
A huge degree of privacy and individualism have emerged as the defining quality of Western societies for a while now.
Its also so to some extent capitalism. You tend to worry about yourself above everything else there is.
Its also so to some extent capitalism. You tend to worry about yourself above everything else there is.
I think there is definitely an existential crisis in the West. I can’t think of a time when society was this pessimistic, this focused on individual improvement and this divided financially, and I was an adult in the 80’ies.
I recently hired for a temporary junior position and the applicants blew me away. It’s the first time I’ve truest vitnessed the product of the competitive state, these 22-24 year olds were spending all of their time trying to prepare for the job market, not because they seemed to want to, but because they didn’t want to fall behind their peers, as one of them said bluntly when I asked why she never seemed to take time off.
I can’t imagine how terrible that constant performance pressure must be. Especially if you’re not in the top 80%.
Ironically I can’t really think of a time where things were really better than they are now. So I’m not entirely sure where this pessimism and performance anxiety comes from. Rising inequality is a problem though, if left unchecked it almost always leads to violent instability.
I recently hired for a temporary junior position and the applicants blew me away. It’s the first time I’ve truest vitnessed the product of the competitive state, these 22-24 year olds were spending all of their time trying to prepare for the job market, not because they seemed to want to, but because they didn’t want to fall behind their peers, as one of them said bluntly when I asked why she never seemed to take time off.
I can’t imagine how terrible that constant performance pressure must be. Especially if you’re not in the top 80%.
Ironically I can’t really think of a time where things were really better than they are now. So I’m not entirely sure where this pessimism and performance anxiety comes from. Rising inequality is a problem though, if left unchecked it almost always leads to violent instability.
Probably a combination of standardized testing, perceived looming economic/environmental/social upheaval, and feedback loops between blind optimization of social media engagement metrics and unwitting narcissism.
I found that social media let me to regularly compare myself with friends, and feel like I was also being evaluated... after explaining why I shut down my accounts, I learned many of my friends felt similarly.
It doesn't help that everyone's social lives are a clixk-away. When someone's feeling down, they can passively scroll through "evidence" supporting those emotions - compared to talking to people, or even imagining their lives (actively thinking).
I found that social media let me to regularly compare myself with friends, and feel like I was also being evaluated... after explaining why I shut down my accounts, I learned many of my friends felt similarly.
It doesn't help that everyone's social lives are a clixk-away. When someone's feeling down, they can passively scroll through "evidence" supporting those emotions - compared to talking to people, or even imagining their lives (actively thinking).
Plus how every company seems to insist on only hiring the best or the rest, no middle ground; either you're a top genius working at hip startups and/or the engineering department at the big internet megacorporations, or you're doing the modern equivalent of a McJob, that is, Uber driver (if you're lucky enough to have a car), delivery guy, warehouse order picker that needs to pee in bottles on the go to get the targets the computer is telling you to reach.
I've pulled of from social media (with friends) for that exact same reason. It's relieving.
I still use it to follow and connect to people I don't know in fields I'm interested in.
I still use it to follow and connect to people I don't know in fields I'm interested in.
I can’t think of a time when society was this pessimistic, this focused on individual improvement and this divided financially.
Not in recent history. In US history, you have to go back to about 1880 to see such wealth concentration. And that was a time of much greater general economic growth.
What's discouraging today is that a lot of long-term trends that haven't declined in a century are headed down. Even population is dropping in much of the developed world. In the US and UK, the new generation is doing worse than its predecessors. That's very unusual without a war.
We have more productive capacity than we know what to do with, and no clue how to organize a society to use it effectively.
Not in recent history. In US history, you have to go back to about 1880 to see such wealth concentration. And that was a time of much greater general economic growth.
What's discouraging today is that a lot of long-term trends that haven't declined in a century are headed down. Even population is dropping in much of the developed world. In the US and UK, the new generation is doing worse than its predecessors. That's very unusual without a war.
We have more productive capacity than we know what to do with, and no clue how to organize a society to use it effectively.
Pretty much everyone lives far better now than they did in 1880. Objective, material conditions are way up. So this argument has to be based on relative ones.
Do you really get existential anxiety from the knowledge that others' lives are improving faster than yours? Would it help if they did it in secret? Perhaps it is the activists yammering on about wealth inequality who are causing the actual problem here.
Do you really get existential anxiety from the knowledge that others' lives are improving faster than yours? Would it help if they did it in secret? Perhaps it is the activists yammering on about wealth inequality who are causing the actual problem here.
Despite a lack of physical evidence, I'm starting to believe there may be more dimensions to the human experience than wealth and material condition.
Of course there is - which is why the diagnosis of “it must be wealth inequality” is so uncompelling.
Perhaps I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. I interpreted it as approximately "material wealth is up on an absolute basis, so any relative inequality is just jealousy and can be safely disregarded".
Indeed, the more I think about our current American political climate, the more I think of the American Gilded Age: huge wealth disparities, ineffective and corrupt politicians, larger-than-life industrial titans, and a largely global society.
> I can’t think of a time when society was this pessimistic
How can you consider human history up to this point when such details are almost certainly lost to time? Did the fall of the (western) Roman empire, for example, really not spawn generations of pessimism? Or maybe it did but those folks unable to document it? I bet a large portion of Europe was pessimistic during WW2.
How can you consider human history up to this point when such details are almost certainly lost to time? Did the fall of the (western) Roman empire, for example, really not spawn generations of pessimism? Or maybe it did but those folks unable to document it? I bet a large portion of Europe was pessimistic during WW2.
Well, the suicide rates were probably pretty high in the Roman Empire, and they were certainly high during WW2, especially among people who were denied entry to the army. Society as a whole wasn’t pessimistic during WW2, there was a very focused sense of doing what was required of you, which is why men committed suicide when they couldn’t fight for their country.
We don’t have a very good view on how the mood was in the Roman Empire, as most information on commoners come from a few lines of text on their burial pottery, so it’s hard to say much about that. It probably wasn’t fun to be poor though.
I can’t remeber either of those periods, and I was making a statement from my own world view, which is obviously anecdotal and may be flawed.
We don’t have a very good view on how the mood was in the Roman Empire, as most information on commoners come from a few lines of text on their burial pottery, so it’s hard to say much about that. It probably wasn’t fun to be poor though.
I can’t remeber either of those periods, and I was making a statement from my own world view, which is obviously anecdotal and may be flawed.
You can safely append "in my lifetime" to their musings.
But how are we going to farm for karma if we can't nitpick then ? /s
>I can’t really think of a time where things were really worse than they are now
How about literally all of history?
How about literally all of history?
Holy shit, I wrote the exact opposite of what I meant to write, I mean, it’s not ironic if things aren’t better. Heh.
I wonder where you get these applicants. We're in Frankfurt/Germany, a reasonably famous startup with 65 people now and the best hiring strategy we've found is peer recommendations. The normal application funnel receives a flipside of what you describe, most students/young applicants are barely able to verbalise an interest in any field and use the majority of the interview to ask about benefits and home-office/remote possibilities instead of what the job entails.
The cutest response that kind of summarized the attitude I feel I get we lately heard from a school intern on his last day, age 14 in our company-wide slack:"I loved being surrounded by so many nice people... ...if I ever have to work, I would like to work for a company like yours." He was an exception though and very diligent trying to help wherever he could, but It caused quite some chuckles.
The cutest response that kind of summarized the attitude I feel I get we lately heard from a school intern on his last day, age 14 in our company-wide slack:"I loved being surrounded by so many nice people... ...if I ever have to work, I would like to work for a company like yours." He was an exception though and very diligent trying to help wherever he could, but It caused quite some chuckles.
Probably because Frankfurt is super expensive.
I interviewed for two jobs there and then gave up on Frankfurt.
Management still does not realize or don't want to acknowledge how expensive this city is.
If I would keep going to interviews you can bet your ass my first question would be about money. Because after the answer I know if you are living in reality or living in a dream world and we can end it there.
I interviewed for two jobs there and then gave up on Frankfurt.
Management still does not realize or don't want to acknowledge how expensive this city is.
If I would keep going to interviews you can bet your ass my first question would be about money. Because after the answer I know if you are living in reality or living in a dream world and we can end it there.
There's a whole book on this topic you might enjoy called Abundance. It talks specifically about what is changing for the better, despite what we see/hear every day.
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> Especially if you’re not in the top 80%.
I think you mean top 20%? Top 80% means you're not in the lowest 20%.
I think you mean top 20%? Top 80% means you're not in the lowest 20%.
I think posts lumping up the many parts of Europe, UK, Canada, USA (edit: and maybe South America?) together as "the west" is not something worth reading online.
Because parts of the world that share similar cultural heritage and have strong economic ties to each other should under no circumstances be lumped together.
Folks with entirely different lives and world views should not be lumped together. This is what the Islamic folks are doing wrong as well.
Right, so we should look at every person individually and never generalize over more than one person. Sounds very useful.
The sarcastic tone is rapidly losing it's utility as you fall deeper and deeper into the same naive over-generalization pitfalls as any extremist criticizer of "the west".
Your urban existential chrisis is simply alien to your average Italian farmer who lives in a neighborhood which hasn't changed much in the past two centuries.
Your urban existential chrisis is simply alien to your average Italian farmer who lives in a neighborhood which hasn't changed much in the past two centuries.
My grandfather (end of WO I and WO II entirely as an adult) always said that people have no idea what bad looks like and will not be satisfied if they have not lived through a war (or two) in their own country. We have never had more peace and wealth and yet I see people around me being more and more unhappy and dissatisfied. Possibly my grandfather was right, hope not.
Amount of peace and wealth are clearly not fully predictive of good mental health. Public health officials in England expected a civilian mental health crisis during WW2. This didn't happen, the incidence of "neurosis" remained flat.
On some level, humans thrive under hardship. Social cohesion goes up, meaning and purpose comes easy. People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. Bill Gates wakes up and goes to his job, not because he needs money but because he needs to matter.
This worries me about AI and automation, universal basic income is needed, but doesn't solve people's need for having a purpose.
On some level, humans thrive under hardship. Social cohesion goes up, meaning and purpose comes easy. People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. Bill Gates wakes up and goes to his job, not because he needs money but because he needs to matter.
This worries me about AI and automation, universal basic income is needed, but doesn't solve people's need for having a purpose.
> People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again.
This is just scratching the surface. Why do people that lose their job become less happy?
I think it's much more likely a combination of stigmatization, uncertain access to basic needs, and social isolation (friends and family are probably working after all). That the job itself is the sole, or even the main, purpose provider doesn't seem to hold up imo. I think that furthering the skin deep idea of job = purpose isn't helpful in societies obsessed with work.
This is just scratching the surface. Why do people that lose their job become less happy?
I think it's much more likely a combination of stigmatization, uncertain access to basic needs, and social isolation (friends and family are probably working after all). That the job itself is the sole, or even the main, purpose provider doesn't seem to hold up imo. I think that furthering the skin deep idea of job = purpose isn't helpful in societies obsessed with work.
Sadly I think your grandfather was largely on to something. My Great Grandfather was a WWI Veteran, and my Grandmother (his daughter) would say similar things when I was a kid, referencing him, while my siblings and I would stay with them for the summer - we’d complain about dumb stuff (it was a small town, we were from the city). War shocks people into reordering what’s important, and that typically involves focusing on your family. While it’s true we live in an era of wealth and comfort never seen in human history, it’s terrifying to me that a war is what it would take to get people to enjoy it and be happy.
It's not about who has or had it the hardest. It's about living with hope things'll get better.
These suicides are evidence of the exhaustion of hope. So how do you provide hope again?
Giving some plausible reason to have hope is a good place to start.
"It always works out" seems to be enough for many people (typically, those for whom it has worked out), but for those who know that, actually, no, it doesn't "always work out", an actually plausible reason is often required. And for others, even that isn't enough.
"It always works out" seems to be enough for many people (typically, those for whom it has worked out), but for those who know that, actually, no, it doesn't "always work out", an actually plausible reason is often required. And for others, even that isn't enough.
The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge. If you already know things will get better, you do not need to hope they will, you can just wait for it to happen.
> The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge.
This seems a bit coarse. Working hard to move from the lower class to solidly middle class is not guaranteed, so the pursuit of that is based on both hope and knowledge. However, if the statistical likelihood of this move begins decreasing, and simultaneously the rates of people moving in the opposite direction is also rising, one could argue that a natural response would be for "hope" levels to decrease.
This seems a bit coarse. Working hard to move from the lower class to solidly middle class is not guaranteed, so the pursuit of that is based on both hope and knowledge. However, if the statistical likelihood of this move begins decreasing, and simultaneously the rates of people moving in the opposite direction is also rising, one could argue that a natural response would be for "hope" levels to decrease.
By this reasoning, someone in a historically war-torn country (there are a few, you can imagine it's any one of them) should not hope for a peaceful time at some point. I think this is a good example of a case where hope does indeed work, even though the thing you hope for is statistically unlikely.
More accurately, by this reasoning, someone in a war torn country might be expected to have lower hope levels than someone in that same country before it became war torn. For some people, hope is always possible, but when things are going backwards, a lot of people have trouble maintaining hope.
There is no light without darkness
OK, I've always felt weird thinking this because whenever I've ever mentioned it, other people always think I'm an idiot.
My life is amazing. If it gets really horrible, I think I can handle it because I see so many examples of other people handling it. I saw some comments of people's attempts on the web to follow super-cheap diets as an experiment. Other people wrote comments about how those people were wasting money by buying organic eggs, not buying and pre-soaking beans instead of buying canned beans, etc. Yeah, if necessary, I think I can do that. I lived a whole summer on instant noodles once. I think I can do it again.
OK, move to the next level. I see people making less than $1000 USD per month in China and still able to raise a kid. They eat rice and veggies every day, living costs can be low if you want them to be. Yeah, I think I can do that. My wife prefers to be mostly vegetarian, so I'm halfway there. Most dinners, we literally only eat some leafy greens and cabbage, and maybe some rice.
OK, move to the next level, I volunteered in villages where living standards are super low. Sanitation can suck. But they make it work. If they can do it, why can't I? I've done it for a short-term period before. Can I do it for a long-term period? If I'm forced to, why not?
OK, move to the next level. War, genocide, torture, the works. Many people don't survive that stuff. Some do. How the heck do I look at what they go through and think that my life sucks and there's no hope for the future? I am endowed with a great education, a job that pays my bills, and self-confidence that I can make it in any situation and any environment, no matter how bad it gets.
So two things here. First, everything is a matter of perspective. I don't know why people think I'm an idiot for thinking my life would be great even if I was forced to take a crap in a hole in the dirt where there's no plumbing. If they can do it and still be able to laugh and be happy, why can't I?
Second, I think the environment thing is huge. I can understand why people who are stuck in certain environments can never get the mindset necessary to escape it. Inner city gang problems, extreme poverty, etc, etc. There is some systemic crap in society that really stops people from realizing their potential and getting the confidence to even step outside their comfort zone. I don't know the answer to that, and smarter minds than me have tried to figure it out.
Loneliness is a thing too. How the heck did we get from the place where it's great to know your neighbours to neighbours don't want to know each other, as others are commenting? Why is it so hard for people to make friends, mate, etc? I get there are hard issues in our society that people haven't been able to figure out.
BUT... I've always thought to myself, "eh, could be worse" and I've always joked with other people, "hey, I'm still alive!" And people think I'm an idiot for considering that I'd be OK taking a crap in a hole in the dirt with no plumbing. In the meantime, I get really annoyed when people talk about their first world problems. Yes, I can be hypocritical about this too, of course. I have my own first world problems like wishing I could find a job I enjoy more. Life goes on.
My life is amazing. If it gets really horrible, I think I can handle it because I see so many examples of other people handling it. I saw some comments of people's attempts on the web to follow super-cheap diets as an experiment. Other people wrote comments about how those people were wasting money by buying organic eggs, not buying and pre-soaking beans instead of buying canned beans, etc. Yeah, if necessary, I think I can do that. I lived a whole summer on instant noodles once. I think I can do it again.
OK, move to the next level. I see people making less than $1000 USD per month in China and still able to raise a kid. They eat rice and veggies every day, living costs can be low if you want them to be. Yeah, I think I can do that. My wife prefers to be mostly vegetarian, so I'm halfway there. Most dinners, we literally only eat some leafy greens and cabbage, and maybe some rice.
OK, move to the next level, I volunteered in villages where living standards are super low. Sanitation can suck. But they make it work. If they can do it, why can't I? I've done it for a short-term period before. Can I do it for a long-term period? If I'm forced to, why not?
OK, move to the next level. War, genocide, torture, the works. Many people don't survive that stuff. Some do. How the heck do I look at what they go through and think that my life sucks and there's no hope for the future? I am endowed with a great education, a job that pays my bills, and self-confidence that I can make it in any situation and any environment, no matter how bad it gets.
So two things here. First, everything is a matter of perspective. I don't know why people think I'm an idiot for thinking my life would be great even if I was forced to take a crap in a hole in the dirt where there's no plumbing. If they can do it and still be able to laugh and be happy, why can't I?
Second, I think the environment thing is huge. I can understand why people who are stuck in certain environments can never get the mindset necessary to escape it. Inner city gang problems, extreme poverty, etc, etc. There is some systemic crap in society that really stops people from realizing their potential and getting the confidence to even step outside their comfort zone. I don't know the answer to that, and smarter minds than me have tried to figure it out.
Loneliness is a thing too. How the heck did we get from the place where it's great to know your neighbours to neighbours don't want to know each other, as others are commenting? Why is it so hard for people to make friends, mate, etc? I get there are hard issues in our society that people haven't been able to figure out.
BUT... I've always thought to myself, "eh, could be worse" and I've always joked with other people, "hey, I'm still alive!" And people think I'm an idiot for considering that I'd be OK taking a crap in a hole in the dirt with no plumbing. In the meantime, I get really annoyed when people talk about their first world problems. Yes, I can be hypocritical about this too, of course. I have my own first world problems like wishing I could find a job I enjoy more. Life goes on.
Your loneliness point is good; I move to places where this is automatically solved; I leave my door open, I walk in on neighbors, kids walk around freely. I realize how this is such an issue in many parts of the world. In the places I live, a complete stranger invites you to dinner after 30 minutes in the bar; complete stranger pick up your infants and hug them and give them candy. In many countries that would be jail time maybe? Or at least angry parents. So easy to meet new people and people every day; eat together, have fun together. When I lived in the city, my paranoid neighbor would sometimes say hi and yeah forget making new friends. I know it is not everywhere like that, but in those places it is easy to become isolated and incredibly lonely. Going back to granddad; he would say the army would solve that for young people...
What “we” are you referring to? You and your grandfather?
A lot of other people are poor. I promise.
A lot of other people are poor. I promise.
They may be poor but overall, they are almost certainly doing much better than the poor in the past.
I believe what OP is referring to is that people think in relatives such that they compare how their life is to others/the past. With no bad wars in most countries recently to compare against horrific times, everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else's life hence making them unhappy despite the good times we actually are having nowadays. This also somewhat aligns with the many studies showing some of the downsides of social media.
I believe what OP is referring to is that people think in relatives such that they compare how their life is to others/the past. With no bad wars in most countries recently to compare against horrific times, everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else's life hence making them unhappy despite the good times we actually are having nowadays. This also somewhat aligns with the many studies showing some of the downsides of social media.
No, the world; EU and US had no wars on their soil for large periods compared to their histories.
Fully agree with you on the US, but for the EU, it's just ~25 years. Slovenia and Croatia both went through a violent conflict in early 90s (although Slovenian one was very short).
There are EU citizens in their mid-twenties born during the war.
If (and that's a giant "if" considering its fragile state of the moment) Serbia becomes the next EU member (optimistic estimate is 2025), the most recent conflict will shift to late 90s, and you will again have people in their mid-twenties born during the conflict.
That's really not that long.
There are EU citizens in their mid-twenties born during the war.
If (and that's a giant "if" considering its fragile state of the moment) Serbia becomes the next EU member (optimistic estimate is 2025), the most recent conflict will shift to late 90s, and you will again have people in their mid-twenties born during the conflict.
That's really not that long.
You are absolutely right. Sorry about that oversight (I am from NL; I do know better); too living in my own world. Stand corrected.
Then an interesting tidbit would be if people are struggling mentally as much as they do in north EU or US?
Then an interesting tidbit would be if people are struggling mentally as much as they do in north EU or US?
I think it's part of the trend of "despair deaths": https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833... https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolinekee/maps-despair-deaths-dru...
Sidebar: it's cheap and disrespectful to people experiencing depression to casually attribute the suicide rate to your pet theory about the decline of society.
No, it isn't. You figure things out by theorizing and discussing those theories. In this case about a macro-level social trend. It isn't about any particular one or a dozen or a hundred people who's depression is rooted in something else.
You figure things out by collecting and analyzing data to validate your hypotheses.
Atheism is mentioned in the article. Facing the naked truth that there is no god can be brutal indeed. It's not surprising that rational people are clinging to their soothing beliefs.
The most important thing to reduce suicide rates is to reduce access to means and methods. This is impossible in the US because it means gun owners have to store their weapons in locked cabinets, with the ammunition in a separate place. Or, better, that fewer people own guns.
Some thing that might be possible is to provide training to police so that they don't kill people who are mentally distressed.
It's a bit worrying that this article doesn't mention any definitions or differences in counting over years.
Some thing that might be possible is to provide training to police so that they don't kill people who are mentally distressed.
It's a bit worrying that this article doesn't mention any definitions or differences in counting over years.
No one mentioned food and the gut brain axis, sugar and phlatetes changing our gut composition and the gut brain axis then changing our thinking more rapidly.
Is there a decent theory behind this? Any suggestions on a good place to get an intro to the idea?
Various links between your gut bacteria and depression, which can lead to suicide.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170308114709.h...
Google "gut brain axis"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170308114709.h...
Google "gut brain axis"
A sense of meaninglessness and purposelessness is often behind suicide.
As Nietzsche observed, "he who has a why to live can bear almost any how."
As Nietzsche observed, "he who has a why to live can bear almost any how."
I wonder what percent of this is related to the current media climate and technology enabling a more relentlessly global perspective and world view. There is the unhealthy war between the media and Trump. Trump sloughs it off, the media loves the sensation, but in my anecdotal observation some people internalize this national/international soap opera in really dark and despairing ways. I see a few people I know who have attempted suicide constantly hitting social media with profanities against DJT and retweeting more of the same. Regardless of what is going on, the stuff is not really relevant to their own problems and well being at the moment. I'm guessing the psychology is something like "well, even if I get my shit together it'll still not a Nash equilibrium because the world is irreparably fucked for me".
> "well, even if I get my shit together it'll still not a Nash equilibrium because the world is irreparably fucked for me"
IMO that's exactly it. At certain point I decided that I will work both harder and smarter because I like money and the peace of mind and freedom they enable... but in the end all my aspirations for changing the world for the better won't ever materialize, I am pretty sure of it.
So in the end it turns out that a happy philosophy would be something like in the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy":
"Just do what makes you happy and don't worry about the world."
Even that is pretty hard nowadays because we constantly get bombarded with comparisons. The media REALLY loves turning people on each other.
IMO that's exactly it. At certain point I decided that I will work both harder and smarter because I like money and the peace of mind and freedom they enable... but in the end all my aspirations for changing the world for the better won't ever materialize, I am pretty sure of it.
So in the end it turns out that a happy philosophy would be something like in the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy":
"Just do what makes you happy and don't worry about the world."
Even that is pretty hard nowadays because we constantly get bombarded with comparisons. The media REALLY loves turning people on each other.
Could all of this be linked to a basic human need of constant "news value"? I mean, does people need to fill their brain in some form of another, if not they go insane? Ways you can fill your brain with news value: Difficult tasks at work, engaging in other peoples lives, gambling, Facebook, Netflix, hobbies, stock market, knitting, programming, voting for a president to make their life more interesting (I did not say better).. If you have a lot of hobbies you are more ok with a boring job, and with a difficult job you are more ok with boring / little contact with your neighbours.
If you want to read more thoughts on how having meaning relates to a fulfilling life, check our Viktor Frankl's classic, Man's Search for Meaning [1]. He was in concentration camps and developed a whole theory about the exact topic touched on in the nytimes article.
It's short and very inspiring.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebo...
It's short and very inspiring.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebo...
I highly recommend the book “Tribe” by Sebastian Junger.
He has also been a frequent podcast guest asked of his opinions on the recent school shooting trend.
While Junger is not a classically trained psychologist, sociologist, or anthropologist he is a keen observer of human group behaviour.
His argument is that people need meaning, people need purpose, and most importantly people need to belong.
I would agree 100%
He has also been a frequent podcast guest asked of his opinions on the recent school shooting trend.
While Junger is not a classically trained psychologist, sociologist, or anthropologist he is a keen observer of human group behaviour.
His argument is that people need meaning, people need purpose, and most importantly people need to belong.
I would agree 100%
For one, I think people are more selfish these days. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm selfish in the same way and I think it's a luxury we couldn't afford until recently. I don't know if the world made us that way, or we made the world that way, but we're all to blame. Because relative wealth has increased since I was a kid we generally don't need our community the way we used to. When I was a kid, my mom knew all the neighbors really well and nearly every night somebody was borrowing dinner ingredients or something from somebody. Today, my same mom would probably just go to the store and buy what she needs. Nobody needs each other anymore, or at least they don't think they do.
Secondly, there is so much more entertainment now than there used to be. When I was a kid, there was maybe one night/week where something was on TV that I actually wanted to watch. Movies were rented once/week max. So, the rest of the time was mostly spent playing with kids on our block... and our parents would have a beer with the other parents at the same time. It was cheap, fun, and more importantly for our context... there wasn't anything better to do anyway. It was plain simple truthful fun. It was real.
Fucking too. I think people fucked more back then.
Our transition to the mass consumption of entertainment that we have now, including hacker news to some degree, presents an even bigger problem... lies. Plain simple truthful fun is much harder to come by now. The Joneses (or Kardashians) are on your TV all the time on every channel. Mostly unobtainable celebrity lifestyles stream to your pocket in real time. And if nothing good is on in real time then you can consume every night of your next two months streaming 7 seasons of a new show. I know my wife and I definitely have less sex because Game of Thrones and other TV shows are better than most movies. I hate to admit it because it sounds sad, but it's also our choice, we have less sex than we would if TV wasn't so damn good. It's not better than sex, but it's easier to do. You can drink wine while you're doing it. At the end of a long day, you can wind down instead of winding up. It doesn't take any effort, and everything else worthwhile, like talking to your neighbors, is harder than winding down. It is work. You have to think. It shouldn't be that way, but it's just not as relaxing as watching TV or reading hacker news.
Nobody leaves their house anymore. When I was a kid, there were people outside constantly. Nobody in my neighborhood even mows their grass anymore, it's all lawn care services. Nobody does shit that they don't have to do. Kids too. My kids are young, but if I let them start the day watching TV they never want to stop and go outside. I rarely see other kids outside playing anymore. My friends with teenagers say their kids have no desire to get their drivers license, they like being at home, watching youtube, playing video games and texting with friends. Even the number of teens having sex is way down. Even horny teenagers aren't fucking as much anymore!
That's because the entertainment itself is part of the problem. It's good. It's really good. "Binge watching" sounds like an unhealthy disorder because it is an unhealthy disorder. Even "reality tv" isn't real. What? The things they market as real aren't real! Then the lie takes a break to pay the bills through advertising and it's even more lies. Now, don't get me wrong, I've worked in Advertising and there's no grand conspiracy to try and control people, everyone in that industry is just working their ass off to do the best job they can like everyone else in every other industry. If you go to the gym, the girl with the nice boobs -- they might be fake, or that guy with the muscles you want -- he might be doped up. Everything is out of control.
So, it's no wonder people can't find purpose and are killing themselves -- they can't make sense of this world and that is one of the few things they can do that they know is real. They feel out of control and taking their own life is one thing they can do, it's the final and ultimate way to beat this world and prove that they really do have some control.
I used a lot of hyperbole and generalizations but I think this one is true: we need to spend less time with our screens and more time outside with our friends and family. Good luck convincing them.
Secondly, there is so much more entertainment now than there used to be. When I was a kid, there was maybe one night/week where something was on TV that I actually wanted to watch. Movies were rented once/week max. So, the rest of the time was mostly spent playing with kids on our block... and our parents would have a beer with the other parents at the same time. It was cheap, fun, and more importantly for our context... there wasn't anything better to do anyway. It was plain simple truthful fun. It was real.
Fucking too. I think people fucked more back then.
Our transition to the mass consumption of entertainment that we have now, including hacker news to some degree, presents an even bigger problem... lies. Plain simple truthful fun is much harder to come by now. The Joneses (or Kardashians) are on your TV all the time on every channel. Mostly unobtainable celebrity lifestyles stream to your pocket in real time. And if nothing good is on in real time then you can consume every night of your next two months streaming 7 seasons of a new show. I know my wife and I definitely have less sex because Game of Thrones and other TV shows are better than most movies. I hate to admit it because it sounds sad, but it's also our choice, we have less sex than we would if TV wasn't so damn good. It's not better than sex, but it's easier to do. You can drink wine while you're doing it. At the end of a long day, you can wind down instead of winding up. It doesn't take any effort, and everything else worthwhile, like talking to your neighbors, is harder than winding down. It is work. You have to think. It shouldn't be that way, but it's just not as relaxing as watching TV or reading hacker news.
Nobody leaves their house anymore. When I was a kid, there were people outside constantly. Nobody in my neighborhood even mows their grass anymore, it's all lawn care services. Nobody does shit that they don't have to do. Kids too. My kids are young, but if I let them start the day watching TV they never want to stop and go outside. I rarely see other kids outside playing anymore. My friends with teenagers say their kids have no desire to get their drivers license, they like being at home, watching youtube, playing video games and texting with friends. Even the number of teens having sex is way down. Even horny teenagers aren't fucking as much anymore!
That's because the entertainment itself is part of the problem. It's good. It's really good. "Binge watching" sounds like an unhealthy disorder because it is an unhealthy disorder. Even "reality tv" isn't real. What? The things they market as real aren't real! Then the lie takes a break to pay the bills through advertising and it's even more lies. Now, don't get me wrong, I've worked in Advertising and there's no grand conspiracy to try and control people, everyone in that industry is just working their ass off to do the best job they can like everyone else in every other industry. If you go to the gym, the girl with the nice boobs -- they might be fake, or that guy with the muscles you want -- he might be doped up. Everything is out of control.
So, it's no wonder people can't find purpose and are killing themselves -- they can't make sense of this world and that is one of the few things they can do that they know is real. They feel out of control and taking their own life is one thing they can do, it's the final and ultimate way to beat this world and prove that they really do have some control.
I used a lot of hyperbole and generalizations but I think this one is true: we need to spend less time with our screens and more time outside with our friends and family. Good luck convincing them.
Get off hacker news then! Haha. No, I agree entirely. People not talking to each other is ultimately the problem. My wife was depressed because she had nobody but me to talk to. She went to get help but that didn’t do much so we moved back to her hometown and live next to her parents. Now she sees and talks to her mom every day and I have not seen any evidence of depression. Myself, I have on and off moments where I feel like total shit. It doesn’t help that I have 0 friends and never go out anywhere.
> It doesn’t help that I have 0 friends and never go out anywhere.
Find or start a weekly meetup.com group for something you're interested in. Go every week. Within months you'll have friends. I've done it in a couple cities now and it works great. Any adults who are new to your city are in the same boat -- it's hard to make friends, but this plan works.
Find or start a weekly meetup.com group for something you're interested in. Go every week. Within months you'll have friends. I've done it in a couple cities now and it works great. Any adults who are new to your city are in the same boat -- it's hard to make friends, but this plan works.
Betteridges law.
It raises a good point though; and I don't want to entirely blame individual things; but I do wonder how much of our psychology is pushed to limits with social media. From what I’ve seen on social media platforms you have intensely powerful echo chambers (twitter) telling you everything is hopeless, or making you vitriolic and angry at the world. With instagram we get a curated view of someone’s life. Perfectly packaged and polished which leads to envy and eventually bitterness. Similar story with facebook and the way that you may perceive attention being lavished on other potentially “more deserving” people.
Personally I feel a little less hope in the world from knowing that I will likely never own my own home. Or have the time to start a family. At the same time there are those having swathes of children without being able to provide for them economically. So the burden goes to everyone.
It raises a good point though; and I don't want to entirely blame individual things; but I do wonder how much of our psychology is pushed to limits with social media. From what I’ve seen on social media platforms you have intensely powerful echo chambers (twitter) telling you everything is hopeless, or making you vitriolic and angry at the world. With instagram we get a curated view of someone’s life. Perfectly packaged and polished which leads to envy and eventually bitterness. Similar story with facebook and the way that you may perceive attention being lavished on other potentially “more deserving” people.
Personally I feel a little less hope in the world from knowing that I will likely never own my own home. Or have the time to start a family. At the same time there are those having swathes of children without being able to provide for them economically. So the burden goes to everyone.
Define crisis first and is it something society even cares about?
I think people are more secluded now, it’s a world where you google on your phone instead of asking a stranger or have a discussion with friends. The younger generation is getting robbed with students loans for degrees most don’t even need and could just do apprenticeship or internship for a year to prove themselves. A lot of social media exists now showing social status with wealth, traveling and stuff that isn’t important but creates envi. The mental health «professionals» are not great and just drug pushers filling a capitalist needed role for pharmaceutical companies. Society is approaching the bottom of the barrel where nobody cares to confront anything face to face.
I think people are more secluded now, it’s a world where you google on your phone instead of asking a stranger or have a discussion with friends. The younger generation is getting robbed with students loans for degrees most don’t even need and could just do apprenticeship or internship for a year to prove themselves. A lot of social media exists now showing social status with wealth, traveling and stuff that isn’t important but creates envi. The mental health «professionals» are not great and just drug pushers filling a capitalist needed role for pharmaceutical companies. Society is approaching the bottom of the barrel where nobody cares to confront anything face to face.
Was this controlled for income and net worth?
A solution cheaper than life.
Thomas D from Brooklyn said it best...
"I find this essay to be incredibly simplistic.
You blame the increased suicide rate on the diminished role of religion in our lives and a lack of “neighborliness” with our neighbors? Really?
Just off the top of my head, here are a short list of factors you did not consider:
- The worst income inequality our country’s seen in a CENTURY.
- Most Americans — and statistics back this up — dislike or literally hate their jobs... Which they find meaningless.
- Millions are working 2 and even 3 jobs on starvation wages.
- Millions of Americans are overwhelmed with student debt.
- Our country has no guaranteed paid parental leave.
- Our for-profit health care system leaves millions uncovered — and millions more “covered,” but unable to afford to actually use their coverage.
- Unlike all other major countries in the world, we have ZERO guaranteed paid vacation.
- We work too much — we work longer hours than almost any other industrialized country.
- Because of this sad fact, what time we have left over for leisure and spending time with family and friends is severely limited.
- We have a deeply corrupt political system in which all of us recognize that it’s only the super-rich and corporations who get what they want — decade in and decade out. - We live in the Wild, Wild West of “anything goes” for corporations — including raping our environment and monopolizing... resulting in higher bills for us, less innovation, little to no competition and so forth.
Need I go on?"
"I find this essay to be incredibly simplistic.
You blame the increased suicide rate on the diminished role of religion in our lives and a lack of “neighborliness” with our neighbors? Really?
Just off the top of my head, here are a short list of factors you did not consider:
- The worst income inequality our country’s seen in a CENTURY.
- Most Americans — and statistics back this up — dislike or literally hate their jobs... Which they find meaningless.
- Millions are working 2 and even 3 jobs on starvation wages.
- Millions of Americans are overwhelmed with student debt.
- Our country has no guaranteed paid parental leave.
- Our for-profit health care system leaves millions uncovered — and millions more “covered,” but unable to afford to actually use their coverage.
- Unlike all other major countries in the world, we have ZERO guaranteed paid vacation.
- We work too much — we work longer hours than almost any other industrialized country.
- Because of this sad fact, what time we have left over for leisure and spending time with family and friends is severely limited.
- We have a deeply corrupt political system in which all of us recognize that it’s only the super-rich and corporations who get what they want — decade in and decade out. - We live in the Wild, Wild West of “anything goes” for corporations — including raping our environment and monopolizing... resulting in higher bills for us, less innovation, little to no competition and so forth.
Need I go on?"
I agree with some of your criticism, but also criticize how you have thrown out some off-the-cuff beliefs that I would suggest are not true or irrelevant (not all of them though) and wish I could help participate in further research and collaborative analysis.
For instance, you have pointed out several things that are "bad", but haven't necessarily changed or are better overall than they have ever been (hate for meaningless jobs, parental leave, working too much) but you are sometimes comparing current US against other countries, not looking at the fact that these are still on generally positive trends historically.
Some things that might be less-or-irrelevant include: -Inequality: Yes this is true, but the poorest people are better off and there are fewer of them than there have been historically. Many people considered poor these days have cell phones, can afford nutritious meals (even if they don't eat them) and have access to welfare and disability that wasn't available 100 years ago. -Leisure time: On average, people are spending 20+ less hours a week working than they did 100 years ago, and spend far less time doing household chores.
While there is certainly cause for concern and much more progress to be made, overall things are on a positive trend, and most of your arguments only compare against other countries at the current time -- I don't get a sense that this is a major cause of suicide increases.
I also would like to learn more about how the statistics were derived. Are they using the same definition of suicide? Are there other factors? For instance, if someone overdoses on opiates and dies from it, is that considered suicide according to these statistics?
I'm not flat-out disagreeing with you, but rather I would like to better understand which factors are most influential and also what exactly it is they are reporting -- the source material didn't seem to specify whether they were reporting % increases as an absolute number or number of suicides per 100k people, etc.
Steven Pinker's newest book, Enlightenment Now, touches on this topic, and explores statistics and some considerations for what may or may not be influential factors for recent trends in suicide, as well as pretty much every bullet point you provided.
For instance, you have pointed out several things that are "bad", but haven't necessarily changed or are better overall than they have ever been (hate for meaningless jobs, parental leave, working too much) but you are sometimes comparing current US against other countries, not looking at the fact that these are still on generally positive trends historically.
Some things that might be less-or-irrelevant include: -Inequality: Yes this is true, but the poorest people are better off and there are fewer of them than there have been historically. Many people considered poor these days have cell phones, can afford nutritious meals (even if they don't eat them) and have access to welfare and disability that wasn't available 100 years ago. -Leisure time: On average, people are spending 20+ less hours a week working than they did 100 years ago, and spend far less time doing household chores.
While there is certainly cause for concern and much more progress to be made, overall things are on a positive trend, and most of your arguments only compare against other countries at the current time -- I don't get a sense that this is a major cause of suicide increases.
I also would like to learn more about how the statistics were derived. Are they using the same definition of suicide? Are there other factors? For instance, if someone overdoses on opiates and dies from it, is that considered suicide according to these statistics?
I'm not flat-out disagreeing with you, but rather I would like to better understand which factors are most influential and also what exactly it is they are reporting -- the source material didn't seem to specify whether they were reporting % increases as an absolute number or number of suicides per 100k people, etc.
Steven Pinker's newest book, Enlightenment Now, touches on this topic, and explores statistics and some considerations for what may or may not be influential factors for recent trends in suicide, as well as pretty much every bullet point you provided.
> Yes this is true, but the poorest people are better off and there are fewer of them than there have been historically
Better off than when? A decade ago? Two, three, or four decades ago?
Poverty wages have stagnated for almost half of a century. Cost of living has gone up, inflation has gone up and the ability to afford healthcare has left with them. Bankruptcy rates in states that didn't expand Medicaid are soaring.
I was raised on a low income and it was tough, then. Looking back on people who are still living where I came from, they are struggling. They're working multiple jobs, whereas one was enough to live on 20 years ago.
Truthfully, I don't know how they're making ends meet without being in a ton of debt and I don't know who would continue to lend to them in that situation.
Constant housing, health and income insecurity is soul crushing and I find it strange that it's so easily dismissed.
Better off than when? A decade ago? Two, three, or four decades ago?
Poverty wages have stagnated for almost half of a century. Cost of living has gone up, inflation has gone up and the ability to afford healthcare has left with them. Bankruptcy rates in states that didn't expand Medicaid are soaring.
I was raised on a low income and it was tough, then. Looking back on people who are still living where I came from, they are struggling. They're working multiple jobs, whereas one was enough to live on 20 years ago.
Truthfully, I don't know how they're making ends meet without being in a ton of debt and I don't know who would continue to lend to them in that situation.
Constant housing, health and income insecurity is soul crushing and I find it strange that it's so easily dismissed.
This article is talking about suicides being up 25% from 1999 until now, not 100 years ago.
Inequality certainly plays a role in happiness, whether rational or not. Inequality in the U.S. has been on the uptrend. Sure welfare didn't exist 100 years ago, but 22 years ago welfare was reformed to put time limits and require work eligibility. Certainly not what I would consider an uptrend from then.
Inequality certainly plays a role in happiness, whether rational or not. Inequality in the U.S. has been on the uptrend. Sure welfare didn't exist 100 years ago, but 22 years ago welfare was reformed to put time limits and require work eligibility. Certainly not what I would consider an uptrend from then.
Sure, most of the things you list are not good. However I don't see anything on the list that has had a drastic change. If you want to know why people commit more suicides now, it would be useful to try to point the what has changed like the article does.
Not sure why you give credit to politicians. Politicians are not smart enough to engineer this.
This is completely the genius of capitalism. The reality is there are millions of people out there who cannot meaningfully contribute to the modern global economy. You can see this very clearly in the rapidly declining labor force [1]. All of this excess labor has to go. We need to get rid these people as fast as possible because they are literally a huge drag (on growth) and they are making us all poorer.
But how?
The free market to the rescue! No need for government thugs or complicated, expensive social engineering campaigns. The free market can precisely target this excess labor and liquidate it with just the right price signals. The results speak for themselves: suicides are up 30%, birth rates are the lowest they've been in 30 years [2] and we are finally seeing significant declines in life expectancy [3]. All of this is happening while corporate profits are soaring to new heights and the economy is actually growing! [4]
You think politicians could be this effective?
[1] https://www.kansascityfed.org/~/media/files/publicat/econrev...
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44151642
[3] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/12/life-expe...
[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/28/corporate-profits-highest-in...
This is completely the genius of capitalism. The reality is there are millions of people out there who cannot meaningfully contribute to the modern global economy. You can see this very clearly in the rapidly declining labor force [1]. All of this excess labor has to go. We need to get rid these people as fast as possible because they are literally a huge drag (on growth) and they are making us all poorer.
But how?
The free market to the rescue! No need for government thugs or complicated, expensive social engineering campaigns. The free market can precisely target this excess labor and liquidate it with just the right price signals. The results speak for themselves: suicides are up 30%, birth rates are the lowest they've been in 30 years [2] and we are finally seeing significant declines in life expectancy [3]. All of this is happening while corporate profits are soaring to new heights and the economy is actually growing! [4]
You think politicians could be this effective?
[1] https://www.kansascityfed.org/~/media/files/publicat/econrev...
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44151642
[3] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/12/life-expe...
[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/28/corporate-profits-highest-in...
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Misery and suicide have existed in countries with more and less Socialist economies than ours. The fact that Thomas thinks the solution to these suicides happens to be some utopia version of the DSA platform isn't all that interesting. Just another predictable, the ideology I am opposed to is at fault for all of this.
Sure, those are the left wing talking points. You could just as easily say the right wing ones:
- Historically low religious belief and church attendance.
- Low rates of marriage, high rates of divorce.
- High incidence and tolerance of deviant sexuality, low respect for tradition and traditional gender roles.
- Decline of corporal punishment in parenting and education, erosion of fear and respect for authorities and institutions in general.
- Influx of outsiders destroying social trust and cohesion.
- Lack of personal responsibility.
Point is, it's easy to give a laundry list of societal trends which could conceivably affect people's mood, sense of purpose, sense of belonging, etc. But just offering the ones that happen to be your party's platform is not good-faith participation in an effort to actually understand or fix this particular problem. It's just using it as a venue to repeat your ideology.
- Historically low religious belief and church attendance.
- Low rates of marriage, high rates of divorce.
- High incidence and tolerance of deviant sexuality, low respect for tradition and traditional gender roles.
- Decline of corporal punishment in parenting and education, erosion of fear and respect for authorities and institutions in general.
- Influx of outsiders destroying social trust and cohesion.
- Lack of personal responsibility.
Point is, it's easy to give a laundry list of societal trends which could conceivably affect people's mood, sense of purpose, sense of belonging, etc. But just offering the ones that happen to be your party's platform is not good-faith participation in an effort to actually understand or fix this particular problem. It's just using it as a venue to repeat your ideology.
Sure, not a lot of substance here. Easy to disprove most of it.
-income inequality is higher but so is standard of living. Moreover, suicidality is pretty strongly inversely correlated with poverty and privilege. If the hypothesis is that people are killing themselves because "wah someone has more numbers than me" the argument crumbles immediately.
-most jobs have always been shit and meaningless. Nothing new here expect maybe a generation that was told they were special when they are not.
- "2 or 3 jobs" but how many hours? Also, starvation wages? Come on. Nobody in America with a job is poor enough to be hungry. To suggest starvation wage in America devalues actual food scarcity globally. Also, again, poverty and suicidality are inversely correlated
- you can thank federally guaranteed student loans and useless majors for driving up the cost and driving down the value of college. Still, having 40k-200k of loans contributing to suicidality... I'd like to see the study. Could be right.
- guaranteed parental leave would help reduce suicides? I mean, we didn't have that in the past. So why does the status quo cause higher suicide rates?
- the medical services coverage is a strange argument with respect to suicidality. We understand and treat depression way better than we did 50 years ago, so why is it worse now? Plentiful mental health clinics even operate on a "pay what you can" model
-paid vacation, see paid parental leave
- why wasn't suicide higher when we worked more hours in the past? In the last 50 years as hours worked hasn't really changed, why is suicidality up now and not then?
- I mean... Leisure time is still a good 6 hours a workday plus weekends and hasn't really gone down. Why don't people who work more for less commit suicide more often?
- this last one doesn't even deserve a response.
Please go on. Maybe you'll get a single reason if you do.
-income inequality is higher but so is standard of living. Moreover, suicidality is pretty strongly inversely correlated with poverty and privilege. If the hypothesis is that people are killing themselves because "wah someone has more numbers than me" the argument crumbles immediately.
-most jobs have always been shit and meaningless. Nothing new here expect maybe a generation that was told they were special when they are not.
- "2 or 3 jobs" but how many hours? Also, starvation wages? Come on. Nobody in America with a job is poor enough to be hungry. To suggest starvation wage in America devalues actual food scarcity globally. Also, again, poverty and suicidality are inversely correlated
- you can thank federally guaranteed student loans and useless majors for driving up the cost and driving down the value of college. Still, having 40k-200k of loans contributing to suicidality... I'd like to see the study. Could be right.
- guaranteed parental leave would help reduce suicides? I mean, we didn't have that in the past. So why does the status quo cause higher suicide rates?
- the medical services coverage is a strange argument with respect to suicidality. We understand and treat depression way better than we did 50 years ago, so why is it worse now? Plentiful mental health clinics even operate on a "pay what you can" model
-paid vacation, see paid parental leave
- why wasn't suicide higher when we worked more hours in the past? In the last 50 years as hours worked hasn't really changed, why is suicidality up now and not then?
- I mean... Leisure time is still a good 6 hours a workday plus weekends and hasn't really gone down. Why don't people who work more for less commit suicide more often?
- this last one doesn't even deserve a response.
Please go on. Maybe you'll get a single reason if you do.
> Nobody in America with a job is poor enough to be hungry.
That's an absurdly out-of-touch statement.
That's an absurdly out-of-touch statement.
I think I heard recently on NPR that an American making minimum wage earns enough to buy 100k kcal per day. (Sorry, no source)
If you compare that to countries where people actually starve you should be able to see the difference
If you compare that to countries where people actually starve you should be able to see the difference
What about being able to rent or buy a house in addition to feeding yourself?
Besides, there's a lot of "jobs" out there right now where minimum wage does not apply - the service industry (where it has to be filled by tips, which are voluntary, but if you don't tip you're both 'stealing' people's wages and will get shit treatment), the "gig economy", etcetera.
Besides, there's a lot of "jobs" out there right now where minimum wage does not apply - the service industry (where it has to be filled by tips, which are voluntary, but if you don't tip you're both 'stealing' people's wages and will get shit treatment), the "gig economy", etcetera.
> earns enough to buy 100k kcal per day
Calories alone is a pretty limited view of nutrition. Sure, I could drink vegetable oil or eat donuts for every meal...
Calories alone is a pretty limited view of nutrition. Sure, I could drink vegetable oil or eat donuts for every meal...
> income inequality is higher but so is standard of living.
Increased wealth inequality has been shown to negatively impact happiness, whether rational or not. Sure average standard of living may be higher, but that does not negate the negative effects of increased inequality.
> most jobs have always been shit and meaningless.
I disagree, I think jobs have clearly gotten more meaningless. In the past most people were employed in fields like agriculture and manufacturing, which have a clear sense of meaning (even if they're not pleasant). Now with the service sector being the main source of employment and increases in specialization and bureaucracy, it's gotten harder to feel a sense of meaning than it was in the past.
> poverty and suicidality are inversely correlated
I'm doubtful of this. I would imagine there is probably a positive correlation between increased debt (relative to income/wealth), losing one's job / inability to find work, and general lack of money for essential things (eg. medical bills) and increased rates of depression and suicide.
> guaranteed parental leave would help reduce suicides? I mean, we didn't have that in the past.
Women also didn't have to work in the past and could be stay-at-home mothers.
Regarding vacation, there is definitely increased competitiveness in the workforce now. Sure vacation law has not changed, but with increased competitiveness in the labor market companies can demand more (eg. less vacation) and people can be more afraid to take vacations out of fear of losing their jobs and not being able to find another one.
Increased wealth inequality has been shown to negatively impact happiness, whether rational or not. Sure average standard of living may be higher, but that does not negate the negative effects of increased inequality.
> most jobs have always been shit and meaningless.
I disagree, I think jobs have clearly gotten more meaningless. In the past most people were employed in fields like agriculture and manufacturing, which have a clear sense of meaning (even if they're not pleasant). Now with the service sector being the main source of employment and increases in specialization and bureaucracy, it's gotten harder to feel a sense of meaning than it was in the past.
> poverty and suicidality are inversely correlated
I'm doubtful of this. I would imagine there is probably a positive correlation between increased debt (relative to income/wealth), losing one's job / inability to find work, and general lack of money for essential things (eg. medical bills) and increased rates of depression and suicide.
> guaranteed parental leave would help reduce suicides? I mean, we didn't have that in the past.
Women also didn't have to work in the past and could be stay-at-home mothers.
Regarding vacation, there is definitely increased competitiveness in the workforce now. Sure vacation law has not changed, but with increased competitiveness in the labor market companies can demand more (eg. less vacation) and people can be more afraid to take vacations out of fear of losing their jobs and not being able to find another one.
I downvoted you, then upvoted you, then unvoted. I think yours and the parent's statement are somehow both mostly correct. I also think there is a bigger point missing, but I'm not sure what it is.
I get it. My post isn't an SF pop culturally appropriate view. And I have my own views on suicidality, the systemic failure of the parents that reared millennials, and the postmodern deconstruction of historical pillars of meaning that human neurology craves. But this isn't the forum to eludcidate those views.
I would tend to agree with you.
I just now realized a bad typo. Should have read "suicidality is pretty strongly inversely correlated with poverty [and strongly correlated with privilege]"
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This will sound odd but I believe the rise of the independent woman, while a good thing, has some negative unforeseen impacts on society.
I’m so scared to even say that under my normal account because people will take issue with it and try to get me fired from my job.
Some impact is that women are completely able to take care of their self now. They do not need a man and can date who they want or nobody at all (that’s a good thing). This has left women able to pick the top men, studies have shown that they are much more selective than men — and they are in much higher demand than men. This has left a lot of men unable to find love or start a family. Men would get meaning from life having a family, now some men are completely denied the opportunity. Women date up. Men date whatever they can get and women are increasingly more educated and doing better than men. If not for foreign women in the US many many would never have a chance with a woman.
With women entering the workforce, basically doubling it, wages have been impacted, a lot of men struggle (though not us in tech).
This is just something we have to adjust to.
I’m so scared to even say that under my normal account because people will take issue with it and try to get me fired from my job.
Some impact is that women are completely able to take care of their self now. They do not need a man and can date who they want or nobody at all (that’s a good thing). This has left women able to pick the top men, studies have shown that they are much more selective than men — and they are in much higher demand than men. This has left a lot of men unable to find love or start a family. Men would get meaning from life having a family, now some men are completely denied the opportunity. Women date up. Men date whatever they can get and women are increasingly more educated and doing better than men. If not for foreign women in the US many many would never have a chance with a woman.
With women entering the workforce, basically doubling it, wages have been impacted, a lot of men struggle (though not us in tech).
This is just something we have to adjust to.
All age and gender groups, not just men who are of dating age, are seeing increases in suicide.
I also have to ask: how many friends do you have that are women?
It's been my experience that women are more likely to settle down with a less traditionally conventional partner, nowadays, than in the past. Money, power and looks are less important qualities than they traditionally were. Contrary to your belief, I believe this is because woman are able to find economic independence now, and marriage is no longer their one door of opportunity to a better life.
Sure, there are some women who 'date up', but they aren't the majority and aren't in anyway representative of an overall trend. Shallow people exist on both sides.
I also have to ask: how many friends do you have that are women?
It's been my experience that women are more likely to settle down with a less traditionally conventional partner, nowadays, than in the past. Money, power and looks are less important qualities than they traditionally were. Contrary to your belief, I believe this is because woman are able to find economic independence now, and marriage is no longer their one door of opportunity to a better life.
Sure, there are some women who 'date up', but they aren't the majority and aren't in anyway representative of an overall trend. Shallow people exist on both sides.
> This has left women able to pick the top men, studies have shown that they are much more selective than men — and they are in much higher demand than men. This has left a lot of men unable to find love or start a family.
I experience that myself... But I wonder how that works. Isn't the ratio of women to men 50:50 more or less? Are multiple women all in a relationship with the same few men? I don't see how that would work for serious relationships. That must mean women are also not starting families anymore?
I experience that myself... But I wonder how that works. Isn't the ratio of women to men 50:50 more or less? Are multiple women all in a relationship with the same few men? I don't see how that would work for serious relationships. That must mean women are also not starting families anymore?
It’s also probably explained by the increase in single motherhood [1]. I suspect since women no longer need men for financial sustenance they can pick any father they want and raise the child alone if need be. Since attractiveness in men is pareto distributed it probably translates to single mothers and throwaway men.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/18/the-u...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/18/the-u...
Yes. See birth rates declining and marriages happening later and later in life. Lots of studies on that. Women share the top men in casual relationships. Basically we are reverting to the days of the past prior to monogamous enforced by religion where men had multiple women. See studies on that which show most men didn’t reproduce while most women did.
It doesn't help that most (American) men don't seem to be worth dating for reasons that have nothing to do with looks, money, or fame.
Most american men are boring (generally speaking).
NOTE: I'm saying this as an american man.
Most american men are boring (generally speaking).
NOTE: I'm saying this as an american man.
And American women aren't boring?
Pretty loaded statement there that should probably be accompanied with supporting evidence.
Pretty loaded statement there that should probably be accompanied with supporting evidence.
Are you taking this personally? If we hung out, would we have a good time?
Would we be able to talk all night about interesting stuff? Would i stay up way past my bedtime because I don't wanna put the phone (or whatever communication) down?
Would we be able to talk all night about interesting stuff? Would i stay up way past my bedtime because I don't wanna put the phone (or whatever communication) down?
You've accusing an entire gender of being boring, the least you can do is support it with evidence, otherwise your statement is at best doesn't contribute anything, at worst is toxic.
But aren't most people (including women, and people outside of US) boring? And wasn't it always like this?
[deleted]
i always think of https://thebaffler.com/ancestors/feminism-for-men (written in 1914 in a socialist publication) when reading something like what you wrote there.
I certainly don't get the date up part though. I'm kind of a loser (monetarily speaking) and only average looking, but it hasn't been that hard to get a date.
I certainly don't get the date up part though. I'm kind of a loser (monetarily speaking) and only average looking, but it hasn't been that hard to get a date.
I remember a sex educator or psychologist or so on TV talking about the new sex scene with tinder and more openess to have random sex.
And that it changed from 10 women having sex with 8 men to 8 women having sex with the two best looking and most famous guys.
Aka more selective.
And that it changed from 10 women having sex with 8 men to 8 women having sex with the two best looking and most famous guys.
Aka more selective.
My casual sex partner is, almost by definition, not the person I'm looking to settle down and start a family with. In fact, half the appeal of casual sex is fucking someone you'd never date.
So I fall to see what that has to do with what the GP is saying, which is men are being denied opportunities to have a family en mass.
Which is kinda silly, honestly, I see unappealing men dating and getting married, having kids, all the time. Like the GP said, as long as you aren't hideous or have a hygene problem dating isn't particularly difficult for men if you're 1) pleasant and outgoing, 2) put some effort into it, and 3) not absurdly picky.
So I fall to see what that has to do with what the GP is saying, which is men are being denied opportunities to have a family en mass.
Which is kinda silly, honestly, I see unappealing men dating and getting married, having kids, all the time. Like the GP said, as long as you aren't hideous or have a hygene problem dating isn't particularly difficult for men if you're 1) pleasant and outgoing, 2) put some effort into it, and 3) not absurdly picky.
I've never used tinder (or anything like that) myself, nor do i for random hookups. It's just going out there and meeting people and making friends.
They definitely deserve the chance to be selective. Most American men are just too boring. I wouldn't date them if i was into dudes.
Care to back literally any of this up?
It’s all google’able. I’m on my mobile so it’s rather hard for me. The stats released by dating sites are pretty damning for most men.
Read this https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switc...
Read this https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switc...
It is probably harder than ever to NOT question your current path and position in life. Even IF you are satisfied with your position and path, the attention economy constantly works to make you question whether the grass is actually greener on the other side.
Disclaimer: coincidentally, I was 5150'ed today per an email I didn't think through clearly very early in the morning I sent to a family member.
Due to the Werther Effect, does discussing this influence the behavior? Isn't it why all discussions of the topic are banned in certain country's news... not for embarrassment or to hide trauma, but to prevent it from becoming a memetic epidemic?
Due to the Werther Effect, does discussing this influence the behavior? Isn't it why all discussions of the topic are banned in certain country's news... not for embarrassment or to hide trauma, but to prevent it from becoming a memetic epidemic?
5150 means you're involuntarily committed due to mental illness where I come from--what happened to you today exactly?
It's originally part of the TPS Act in Cali, and it's not a convo for anonymous online discussion.
Discussing it does increase the risk in some people.
You can't forbid discussion. You can ask that media doesn't report details of method, or location, or speculate on reasons. We know from interviews from survivors that each of these increase risk.
I hope the hospitalisation goes well! (I know very very little about hospitals outside England.)
You can't forbid discussion. You can ask that media doesn't report details of method, or location, or speculate on reasons. We know from interviews from survivors that each of these increase risk.
I hope the hospitalisation goes well! (I know very very little about hospitals outside England.)
In the US, government forbidding publication by censorship is called "prior restraint," which has a very narrow scope.
Sure you can forbid discussion. In fact, there are some things you legally can't say: state secrets (i.e., agents in harm's way), shout "fire" in a crowded theater, slander or be Geraldo Rivera discussing troops-in-contact battle-plans.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teen-copycat-suicides-are-a-re...
Also "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini
Sure you can forbid discussion. In fact, there are some things you legally can't say: state secrets (i.e., agents in harm's way), shout "fire" in a crowded theater, slander or be Geraldo Rivera discussing troops-in-contact battle-plans.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teen-copycat-suicides-are-a-re...
Also "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini
I keep a kit on standby in case things get too bad. I desire to die perpetually and am generally cynical about the human meat sack condition.
Some relevant books here for those with a Christian heritage who are confused about what's going on, with a historical perspective.
http://www.culturewars.com/books.htm
http://www.culturewars.com/books.htm
No.
Nytimes complains about suicides, but then it also promote policies and politicians that are causing the suicides and destroying our socities.
Some of the policies are: uncontrolled immigration from poor countries bringing crime and causing social distrust. Laws that close the market and give few companies a lot of bargaining power, forcing people to move around like cattle and also making almost impossible to create good economies in towns. Laws that give sociopaths the ability to bring functioning human being in courts for stupid reasons and win, making people not trusting their neighbors. Divorce laws that destroy families. Anti-family propaganda that pushes people to destroy their family at the first difficulties.
These things, and many others, make really difficult to create a well-connected society, and people eventually kill themselves because it's really bad out there where you get a little off the track set by thr State and its puppetters.
So, nytimes should know very well that this is not an existential crisis, it's the result of something they supported for a very long time.
So, nytimes should know very well that this is not an existential crisis, it's the result of something they supported for a very long time.
> uncontrolled immigration from poor countries bringing crime and causing social distrust
This is not a thing that exists. First, immigration into the US, from poor countries or otherwise is not uncontrolled by any stretch of the imagination. Notably, immigration rates are far far from their historical heights. Second, bringing crime is a bold-face lie: immigrants commit crimes both petty and violent at lower rates than native born Americans. And, of course, crime rates are also at or near historical lows no matter what stat one looks at. Third, "social distrust" is pretty odd thing to try to pin on immigration: while there is some research that indicates that a non-assimilated minority undermines social trust, the US as a whole certainly doesn't have a migration rate of non-assimilated minorities at anywhere close to those rates, those migration rates have not increased, and the demographic "Bowling Alone" type studies indicate that the non-dynamic communities where immigrants aren't settling are the ones having issues.
As for "people moving around like cattle", internal migration rates (people moving out of state/county) have fallen steadily over the last thirty years or so. And since when is the movement of people towards opportunity a bad thing? What if towns in which it's "impossible to create good economies" have simply outlived their usefulness as going concerns?
Predictably, this comment rules out moving to opportunity or a social safety net or investment (collective action to solve problems such as "few companies [with] a lot of bargaining power" is spooky) and believes that a well-connected society can only happen when "good economies in towns" are first brought into being by magic as opposed to anything that can actually work.
And, of course, the NYTimes isn't doing all that much to promote policies or politicians aiming to "destroy socities [sic]". Come on now.
This is not a thing that exists. First, immigration into the US, from poor countries or otherwise is not uncontrolled by any stretch of the imagination. Notably, immigration rates are far far from their historical heights. Second, bringing crime is a bold-face lie: immigrants commit crimes both petty and violent at lower rates than native born Americans. And, of course, crime rates are also at or near historical lows no matter what stat one looks at. Third, "social distrust" is pretty odd thing to try to pin on immigration: while there is some research that indicates that a non-assimilated minority undermines social trust, the US as a whole certainly doesn't have a migration rate of non-assimilated minorities at anywhere close to those rates, those migration rates have not increased, and the demographic "Bowling Alone" type studies indicate that the non-dynamic communities where immigrants aren't settling are the ones having issues.
As for "people moving around like cattle", internal migration rates (people moving out of state/county) have fallen steadily over the last thirty years or so. And since when is the movement of people towards opportunity a bad thing? What if towns in which it's "impossible to create good economies" have simply outlived their usefulness as going concerns?
Predictably, this comment rules out moving to opportunity or a social safety net or investment (collective action to solve problems such as "few companies [with] a lot of bargaining power" is spooky) and believes that a well-connected society can only happen when "good economies in towns" are first brought into being by magic as opposed to anything that can actually work.
And, of course, the NYTimes isn't doing all that much to promote policies or politicians aiming to "destroy socities [sic]". Come on now.
> uncontrolled immigration from poor countries bringing crime and causing social distrust.
That's bullshit, sorry. Given same demographics, refugees bring about the same levels of crime as "native Germans" do (e.g. https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-06/bunde...). The "rise" that is sometimes perceived is largely based on the fact that young, poor-ish males tend to be the social group with the most crime issues.
As for "social distrust", you are certainly correct in the symptom, but not the cause. The cause is not "uncontrolled immigration", but politicians having totally screwed up social security systems and protection laws. For example, fair and equal minimum wage laws and especially actual enforcement of these would prevent the common notion of "the migrants are taking away our jobs because they're cheaper".
> Laws that give sociopaths the ability to bring functioning human being in courts for stupid reasons and win, making people not trusting their neighbors.
Laws usually have a reason why they got enacted. Yeah, it's sometimes a mess (especially when it comes to HOAs, per countless debates here and on reddit), but in general, stuff is pretty okay.
> Divorce laws that destroy families.
Care to explain how, other than (in the US!) everything being on the public record and snatched up on the Internet for everyone to see?
> Anti-family propaganda that pushes people to destroy their family at the first difficulties.
What? And even if that were true: sorry, but a family/environment where there is constant arguing between the parents is not healthy for the kids!
That's bullshit, sorry. Given same demographics, refugees bring about the same levels of crime as "native Germans" do (e.g. https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-06/bunde...). The "rise" that is sometimes perceived is largely based on the fact that young, poor-ish males tend to be the social group with the most crime issues.
As for "social distrust", you are certainly correct in the symptom, but not the cause. The cause is not "uncontrolled immigration", but politicians having totally screwed up social security systems and protection laws. For example, fair and equal minimum wage laws and especially actual enforcement of these would prevent the common notion of "the migrants are taking away our jobs because they're cheaper".
> Laws that give sociopaths the ability to bring functioning human being in courts for stupid reasons and win, making people not trusting their neighbors.
Laws usually have a reason why they got enacted. Yeah, it's sometimes a mess (especially when it comes to HOAs, per countless debates here and on reddit), but in general, stuff is pretty okay.
> Divorce laws that destroy families.
Care to explain how, other than (in the US!) everything being on the public record and snatched up on the Internet for everyone to see?
> Anti-family propaganda that pushes people to destroy their family at the first difficulties.
What? And even if that were true: sorry, but a family/environment where there is constant arguing between the parents is not healthy for the kids!
> That's bullshit, sorry. Given same demographics
Wait a minute....if you're calling bullshit, why do you lead your disproof with a limiting qualifier?
Does the specific immigration the grandparent comment references arrive with the same demographics, or not?
> As for "social distrust", you are certainly correct in the symptom, but not the cause. The cause is not "uncontrolled immigration", but politicians having totally screwed up social security systems and protection laws. For example, fair and equal minimum wage laws and especially actual enforcement of these would prevent the common notion of "the migrants are taking away our jobs because they're cheaper".
Again, I would ask, is this a theory or is it a fact? I'm under the impression that social distrust rises as diversity rises (the underlying reason, and whether it is fact-based or not is irrelevant) - is this belief false?
I actually kind of don't agree with your last two points either, but those are more opinion-based so fairly pointless to argue one way or the other.
Wait a minute....if you're calling bullshit, why do you lead your disproof with a limiting qualifier?
Does the specific immigration the grandparent comment references arrive with the same demographics, or not?
> As for "social distrust", you are certainly correct in the symptom, but not the cause. The cause is not "uncontrolled immigration", but politicians having totally screwed up social security systems and protection laws. For example, fair and equal minimum wage laws and especially actual enforcement of these would prevent the common notion of "the migrants are taking away our jobs because they're cheaper".
Again, I would ask, is this a theory or is it a fact? I'm under the impression that social distrust rises as diversity rises (the underlying reason, and whether it is fact-based or not is irrelevant) - is this belief false?
I actually kind of don't agree with your last two points either, but those are more opinion-based so fairly pointless to argue one way or the other.
-1 with no response.
ideology > facts
ideology > facts
I upvoted and largely agree with your comment. I place this reply as a memoriam, because your post will downvoted early and often.
Show me a person who killed themselves because of immigration and I'll show you a person who didn't receive proper mental healthcare.
[deleted]
This strikes a chord for me.
Several years ago my wife and I baked holiday cookies, wrapped them up into clear gift bags with a bow, and went door to door at our townhome/condo complex knocking attempting to spread some holiday cheer.
We had 5 doors closed on us before we gave up.
The immigrant family next door invited us in for a chat, everyone else peaked through a cracked door and waved no thanks.
My mother knew the names of everyone on her block. But it was a different time, people moved into a house, stayed there, raised a family, their kids grew up, and came back to visit their parents. As a kid I went over to the house of the same neighbor my mother visited as a kid.
Now days? Everyone moves. A lot. Chasing jobs, dreams, hopes, and aspirations. We aren't in one place long enough to form a sense of being or community.
I'm actually tackling this with my startup (linked in profile), I'm personally sick and tired of wandering the streets of my city, not knowing the people I pass by.
It does get lonely. The big tech cities are worse to some extent. I'm in Seattle, widely considered to be one of the hardest to meet people in cities in the country. In the dozen years since I've graduated college, I have made 4 solid friends (3 moved away). Something needs to change, we can't all survive being left adrift through life.