Dell XPS 13 Kabylake Makes for a Great Linux Laptop(phoronix.com)
phoronix.com
Dell XPS 13 Kabylake Makes for a Great Linux Laptop
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=dell-xps13-9370&num=1
100 comments
It really is perverse to get a discount when you go with the $120 OS.
Did Dell stop giving online customisation option to users? I bought my first computer in 2007 - it was a Dell Vostro laptop and if I remember correctly I had placed the order online and I could choose whether I want Windows or Linux on it (or maybe I am confusing one for the other). I think I could even make some hardware choices too.
No, you can still do it from different pages. I don't fully understand why. But if you go to the main page for the XPS 13 and 15 you can customize them after picking a base version...
Yes, it's messed up. Just as you describe, nobody should get the Developer Edition. The vanilla edition is regularly on sales for hundreds of dollars less. Also, many attractive configurations aren't available at all with the Developer Edition. Biggest example is obviously the 15" XPS, because why would developers care about screen size for a development workstation, right?
I'd have hoped Dell realizes this, and doesn't make the braindead assumption that only DE customers are interested in Linux. Most people I know who bought an XPS bought the vanilla (Windows) edition, and then installed Ubuntu - which is easy.
If Dell slips up and, say, introduces hardware not supported by Linux, it will lose all these customers.
I'd have hoped Dell realizes this, and doesn't make the braindead assumption that only DE customers are interested in Linux. Most people I know who bought an XPS bought the vanilla (Windows) edition, and then installed Ubuntu - which is easy.
If Dell slips up and, say, introduces hardware not supported by Linux, it will lose all these customers.
> So the author is not helping the cause by buying a Windows 10 laptop and loading Linux onto it.
Yes, let's all donate $100+ to Dell to help the cause. In the mean time Dell will continue with its flawed business strategy for Linux laptops by always pricing them above Windows laptops and never giving any discount.
Yes, let's all donate $100+ to Dell to help the cause. In the mean time Dell will continue with its flawed business strategy for Linux laptops by always pricing them above Windows laptops and never giving any discount.
Do you know what the best way is to get my hands on one in the EU, preferably with a US keyboard layout?
Dell offer a choice of local or US keyboard:
https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptops/xps-13-9370-lap...
This is probably a better plan than importing something without paying taxes. If Brexit happens, there's still Ireland for an English Dell website in the EU.
(Like most other European layouts, the British/Irish one will mean the ISO layout rather than the American (ANSI) layout. Other than the additional key giving space for £ and ¬, there's not much difference; so you might prefer that if you want to keep a vertical-shape enter key.)
https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptops/xps-13-9370-lap...
This is probably a better plan than importing something without paying taxes. If Brexit happens, there's still Ireland for an English Dell website in the EU.
(Like most other European layouts, the British/Irish one will mean the ISO layout rather than the American (ANSI) layout. Other than the additional key giving space for £ and ¬, there's not much difference; so you might prefer that if you want to keep a vertical-shape enter key.)
There's a 9370 on mindfactory.de, doesn't say it's the dev edition, but the os is specified as Ubuntu. And the exact configuration I want, i7 16/512 FHD. The price seems ok, the only flaw being the german layout with the vertical enter key.
Buy one on ebay and have them ship it, use a forwarding service, ask a state side friend to buy one and ship it to you, or take a quick vacation and pick one up.
EDIT. It would be 3% PayPal fee + Cost of shipping ($50 or so) is you asked a friend to do it.
EDIT. It would be 3% PayPal fee + Cost of shipping ($50 or so) is you asked a friend to do it.
About a year ago I was looking to upgrade from my Thinkpad x220 and I ended up with an XPS 13 9360, a year later am comfortable saying it's the best laptop I've ever owned by a long shot. For my personal DD I like to use Arch and I've discovered basically no "linux-y" issues unique to the laptop hardware. Battery life is impressive, usually lasting 8+ hours of web browsing/casual usage with no tweaks (imo usually linux sees a much larger drop off). I'm definitely glad I went with the 1080p version, the PPI is already very high with such a small screen and I think the touchscreen/4K would have been overkill. Build quality is great and the laptop has a super premium feel. I know others have complained about build issues, I guess to them I would just repeat the old adage that you only hear about the people with issues, never from the satisfied users.
I would also say that the newer ones with multi-core are probably not worth the premium, if you can get last year's model for a good price then go for it. I got mine for $850 brand new, a few months before the multi-cores were announced. I don't think I really missed anything.
I would also say that the newer ones with multi-core are probably not worth the premium, if you can get last year's model for a good price then go for it. I got mine for $850 brand new, a few months before the multi-cores were announced. I don't think I really missed anything.
I'd like to try the new multicore from Intel. The dual core with HT on my XPS 13 is total trash when throwing at it more than a couple of tasks. And I am not the only one with this issue at work where we use a mix of Fedora 27/28 and Ubuntu 17.10/18.04. The only redeeming aspect of this otherwise overprices machine is the screen. Although I just wished the screen would be flushed with the bezel like for the touch screen version.
I run arch on a 9360 and adore it, but the touchpad can be linux-ey at times.
I used Linux for 10 years (mainly on Lenovos and some early Dell XPS back in the days), then I switched to MacOS about 3-4 years ago and over the last couple weeks I have been trying to go back to Linux because I am sick having to use MacOS everyday. It is a great OS for an everyday user, but not for a developer.
Here is what I tried so far:
1) Dell XPS 9370 Developer edition: This comes preloaded with Ubuntu and it is actually amazing that everything works out of the box. It was too small for me though, and the fan made a rattling noise so I decided to return it. The 4K screen is probably overkill on such a small display. Based on the review people recommend taking the normal screen, it saves a lot of battery and there is not that much difference.
2) Lenovo X1: I didn't like the feel of the Keyboard, and the screen was not that good. Installing Linux (Arch) was easy, but decided to return it.
3) Dell XPS 9570: I have this one for the last two weeks and so far I love it on the hardware level. I would even put it as somehow superior to my MacBook Pro. The downside is that Linux is not well supported at all. I have installed Arch so far and spent all my evenings trying to fix all the drivers. So far: The Nvidia drivers are barely working, ACPI needs a lot of tweaks (but it seems I got it working and got my 7 hours of battery). I still need to work on the Touchpad, and couple other things.
So far, the Dell XPS 9570 is a good challenger to the MBP, but installing Linux is still going to be a small challenge
Here is what I tried so far:
1) Dell XPS 9370 Developer edition: This comes preloaded with Ubuntu and it is actually amazing that everything works out of the box. It was too small for me though, and the fan made a rattling noise so I decided to return it. The 4K screen is probably overkill on such a small display. Based on the review people recommend taking the normal screen, it saves a lot of battery and there is not that much difference.
2) Lenovo X1: I didn't like the feel of the Keyboard, and the screen was not that good. Installing Linux (Arch) was easy, but decided to return it.
3) Dell XPS 9570: I have this one for the last two weeks and so far I love it on the hardware level. I would even put it as somehow superior to my MacBook Pro. The downside is that Linux is not well supported at all. I have installed Arch so far and spent all my evenings trying to fix all the drivers. So far: The Nvidia drivers are barely working, ACPI needs a lot of tweaks (but it seems I got it working and got my 7 hours of battery). I still need to work on the Touchpad, and couple other things.
So far, the Dell XPS 9570 is a good challenger to the MBP, but installing Linux is still going to be a small challenge
Have you considered the new Matebook X Pro (Huawei)?
I'd been contemplating XPS vs X1 for a number of years, but this one came along with it's 3:2 display! and it seems to support linux out of the box according to everyone whos tried it so far[1]. It's obviously more of an XPS/macbook contender because it's in the ultrathin category not ultrafast, but the screen... the screeeeeen! I want vertical space.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Huawei/comments/8l37ob/matebook_x_p...
I'd been contemplating XPS vs X1 for a number of years, but this one came along with it's 3:2 display! and it seems to support linux out of the box according to everyone whos tried it so far[1]. It's obviously more of an XPS/macbook contender because it's in the ultrathin category not ultrafast, but the screen... the screeeeeen! I want vertical space.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Huawei/comments/8l37ob/matebook_x_p...
Let's hope this start a trend for taller screen. Arguing Ad Vitam Eternam with procurement for the extra 120px of the dell screen U line above 24" is tiring.
Yes, I was hoping dell was going to add a 3:2 to the XPS 13, it so obviously needs it with that giant black bar at the bottom - the trackpad and keyboard can't get any shorter and it kind of makes the whole infinity edge thing a bit of a joke. I guess they only use these stupid dimension screens because it's what is produced for the masses who only consume TV and movies on them.
Which DE supports HiDPI?
I think most reasonably modern DEs support x2 scaling, some people say x2 is slightly on the large side for this laptop though, and that x1.5 or x1.7 is better which can require more fiddling and I doubt all DEs support.
I only use i3wm, if you just use a simple WM like this I have herd you can get away with scaling xft dpi and setting some things like bar sizes manually, although I haven't had the opportunity to actually try this yet. Personally i'm not too worried about GTK stuff being 2x if custom sizes are not possible, but it depends where you spend your time.
I only use i3wm, if you just use a simple WM like this I have herd you can get away with scaling xft dpi and setting some things like bar sizes manually, although I haven't had the opportunity to actually try this yet. Personally i'm not too worried about GTK stuff being 2x if custom sizes are not possible, but it depends where you spend your time.
> I am sick having to use MacOS every day. It is a great OS for an everyday user, but not for a developer.
Could you expound on that? I'm curious as to why OS X isn't satisfying for you as a developer.
Could you expound on that? I'm curious as to why OS X isn't satisfying for you as a developer.
A lot of the GNU userland used in macOS is _ancient_ I think this is partly due to new GPL3 incompat? Then the BSD userland is _also_ ancient... for no apparent reason... Then there is no native package manager, so you have to use stuff like brew - which kinda sorta works but doesn't really feel anywhere near as consistent, integrated and up do date as basically _any_ linux package manger.
Then there's MacOS itself... which is just getting more annoying, I quit after 10.6 (which was best version IMO), everytime I use a mac now I compare it to the relative simplicity and stability of this version, and it's just so much worse. I'm sure others who have more experience with up to date MacOS can give more detail on this.
That said, for non developers I'd still recommend a mac over windows, although in recent years it's gone down hill, and personally I don't want to trade my freedom for closed source OS that have their own agenda - I understand that most users don't have the luxury of really being able to use anything not as friendly to basic users.
Then there's MacOS itself... which is just getting more annoying, I quit after 10.6 (which was best version IMO), everytime I use a mac now I compare it to the relative simplicity and stability of this version, and it's just so much worse. I'm sure others who have more experience with up to date MacOS can give more detail on this.
That said, for non developers I'd still recommend a mac over windows, although in recent years it's gone down hill, and personally I don't want to trade my freedom for closed source OS that have their own agenda - I understand that most users don't have the luxury of really being able to use anything not as friendly to basic users.
on the other hand some of the problems you mentioned were solved on Windows with WSL.
WSL is not a good solution from what i've seen, most of it's proponents have never used Linux on real hardware and are comparing it to gitbash for windows or whatever, or have never used linux before. Some things run fine, others are insanely slow due to either slow translation layer or simply because the behaviour of the underlying windows kernel actually is really many times slower than linux, e.g forking - I didn't know this, just found out first hand. The file-system integration is a bag of shit - the common issue being trying to use git in linux while editing files from a GUI in windows will cause frequent explosions, failed fs updates to to arbitrary windows locking are not fed back to linux which really fucks with git. (i'm talking about using the linux fs from windows which is the way with the least issues - doing the reverse has even more severe consequences). Also the terminal app is the worst i've ever seen. FYI I'm talking from experience helping my colleagues who use windows. </rant>
IMO, if you must use windows and need linux/gnu stuff, just stick linux in a VM with a full GUI, it may seem more resource intensive running a whole other kernel and GUI, but it will work reliably without horrible surprises.
IMO, if you must use windows and need linux/gnu stuff, just stick linux in a VM with a full GUI, it may seem more resource intensive running a whole other kernel and GUI, but it will work reliably without horrible surprises.
> Then there is no native package manager
Isn't brew native? This time around (a few months ago) I didn't notice any issues with setting up a modern frontend dev environment. Not even the dependency hell I always seem to run into on Linux for modern web dev stuff.
> I'm sure others who have more experience with up to date MacOS can give more detail on this.
I've been using macs off and on since I owned a titanium powerbook G4 that ran Tiger (10.4). I've been doing web development during that entire time as well.
Most recently, I got a mac mini with High Sierra installed. I've only been using it for a few months and I'm seriously considering moving back to my WSL setup. I originally moved away from my WSL setup because, about once a month, it would corrupt my git repo and I'd have to wipe it. That wasn't nearly as much hassle as I'm dealing with on a daily basis on the mac mini.
My gripes, in short: Fullscreen mode is an abomination, network drives no longer work worth a damn, APFS defaults to case insensitive, my wifi stops working randomly until I turn it off and on again, ditto with the audio, Finder favorites disappear at random and the keyboard modifiers reset themselves at random.
When I configure something on Windows it damned well stays configured. I used to be able to say the same about OS X but apparently those days are behind me.
It's not all bad, though. The Mac App ecosystem is still the best I've ever encountered. I'll happily pay what Mac apps cost because they still run like a swiss watch. Unfortunately, none of those apps are necessary for web development work.
Isn't brew native? This time around (a few months ago) I didn't notice any issues with setting up a modern frontend dev environment. Not even the dependency hell I always seem to run into on Linux for modern web dev stuff.
> I'm sure others who have more experience with up to date MacOS can give more detail on this.
I've been using macs off and on since I owned a titanium powerbook G4 that ran Tiger (10.4). I've been doing web development during that entire time as well.
Most recently, I got a mac mini with High Sierra installed. I've only been using it for a few months and I'm seriously considering moving back to my WSL setup. I originally moved away from my WSL setup because, about once a month, it would corrupt my git repo and I'd have to wipe it. That wasn't nearly as much hassle as I'm dealing with on a daily basis on the mac mini.
My gripes, in short: Fullscreen mode is an abomination, network drives no longer work worth a damn, APFS defaults to case insensitive, my wifi stops working randomly until I turn it off and on again, ditto with the audio, Finder favorites disappear at random and the keyboard modifiers reset themselves at random.
When I configure something on Windows it damned well stays configured. I used to be able to say the same about OS X but apparently those days are behind me.
It's not all bad, though. The Mac App ecosystem is still the best I've ever encountered. I'll happily pay what Mac apps cost because they still run like a swiss watch. Unfortunately, none of those apps are necessary for web development work.
> Isn't brew native?
It's third-party. Tailor-made for MacOS, but not included with the Apple developer tools.
It's third-party. Tailor-made for MacOS, but not included with the Apple developer tools.
Sure.
My Perspective on the OS:
MacOS philosophy is to hide/remove all or most settings and hope that the default ones will work for you out of the box. I love to tweak everything and MacOS feels too packaged for me. There is not enough freedom for the advanced user to change things. Also, The OS feels so commercial and made for the masses. this is a personal feeling but I cannot help it.
They do a very good job for the normal user that only wants to use a couple well defined apps though.
As a developper:
I mostly develop Linux infrastructure code (backend and low level). As such, using MacOS means that I'm constantly into a VirtualBox VM (which sucks compared to KVM or anything else) or trying to build stuff over SSH. I spend hours opening SSH tunnels, or mangling with port forwarding inside my VMs.
Then, I like to run containers. Docker support for Mac is pretty much basic (or I should call it horrible).
So at the end of the day I am using MacOS as a glorified web browser and SSH terminal. I never took the time to learn the low level working of MacOS, and I also hate that every standard linux tool has been slightly altered to make it almost unusable if you are used to the Linux version. (netstat, lsof, ... are a couple examples)
Basically I want to get control back on My OS.
My Perspective on the OS:
MacOS philosophy is to hide/remove all or most settings and hope that the default ones will work for you out of the box. I love to tweak everything and MacOS feels too packaged for me. There is not enough freedom for the advanced user to change things. Also, The OS feels so commercial and made for the masses. this is a personal feeling but I cannot help it.
They do a very good job for the normal user that only wants to use a couple well defined apps though.
As a developper:
I mostly develop Linux infrastructure code (backend and low level). As such, using MacOS means that I'm constantly into a VirtualBox VM (which sucks compared to KVM or anything else) or trying to build stuff over SSH. I spend hours opening SSH tunnels, or mangling with port forwarding inside my VMs.
Then, I like to run containers. Docker support for Mac is pretty much basic (or I should call it horrible).
So at the end of the day I am using MacOS as a glorified web browser and SSH terminal. I never took the time to learn the low level working of MacOS, and I also hate that every standard linux tool has been slightly altered to make it almost unusable if you are used to the Linux version. (netstat, lsof, ... are a couple examples)
Basically I want to get control back on My OS.
> I also hate that every standard linux tool has been slightly altered to make it almost unusable if you are used to the Linux version. (netstat, lsof, ... are a couple examples)
It's not that they have been altered by Apple, but that you're using the BSD toolset, not the GNU one. You would have the same issues if you were running FreeBSD.
It's not that they have been altered by Apple, but that you're using the BSD toolset, not the GNU one. You would have the same issues if you were running FreeBSD.
Right, because Darwin is based on BSD.
[deleted]
I was working like some sibling posters with web browser, terminals, editor, etc. running in MacOS, but most work files living in a Linux VM. The Linux VM needs to live on my local machine to run a proprietary compiler which sometimes has to be used on the road.
Most of my work is in embedded land, so I usually have at least one serial console running and often those go up/down as the device providing them goes up/down. MacOS would fairly regularly get something tangled up in its USB stack (I think they re-did a substantial amount of it for El Capitan), leading to me needing to move my desk USB hub's connection to a different port on the computer. Then, once the second port fell over, I had to restart the computer to get USB back.
I used to have an NFS mount between MacOS and the virtual Linux machine - that was an endless source of problems with MacOS losing track of file handles, then refusing to unmount or shut down cleanly. On average, I probably had to hold down the power button to hard-reboot once per day. And, NFS always seemed slower than it should've been.
There were silly little issues like my external monitor's HDMI not supporting some volume adjustment protocol for it's audio out, and MacOS refusing to just reduce the levels sent to that device. So, the volume keys didn't work at my desk, except for mute. The security around downloading executables from the net was a pain - way too many clicks to get MacOS to run random open-source programs via Finder.
Most of my work is in embedded land, so I usually have at least one serial console running and often those go up/down as the device providing them goes up/down. MacOS would fairly regularly get something tangled up in its USB stack (I think they re-did a substantial amount of it for El Capitan), leading to me needing to move my desk USB hub's connection to a different port on the computer. Then, once the second port fell over, I had to restart the computer to get USB back.
I used to have an NFS mount between MacOS and the virtual Linux machine - that was an endless source of problems with MacOS losing track of file handles, then refusing to unmount or shut down cleanly. On average, I probably had to hold down the power button to hard-reboot once per day. And, NFS always seemed slower than it should've been.
There were silly little issues like my external monitor's HDMI not supporting some volume adjustment protocol for it's audio out, and MacOS refusing to just reduce the levels sent to that device. So, the volume keys didn't work at my desk, except for mute. The security around downloading executables from the net was a pain - way too many clicks to get MacOS to run random open-source programs via Finder.
If you are deploying to/for linux then developing in linux feels more consistent, natural, compatible, etc...
Personally I just use a macbook and develop over ssh.
Personally I just use a macbook and develop over ssh.
That comes with its own set of disadvantages.
* If you fire up an editor on the remote machine, there is going to be typing lag, unless your Linux machine is in your local network. You can ameliorate this with software such as Mosh, but that comes with its own disadvantages (losing scrollback buffers).
* If you edit locally but save the files to the remote system, you have to worry about getting disconnected or your machine shutting off and losing changes.
* If you edit and save locally, then transfer changes later (e.g., using Git), you run and test your code on the remote machine, and have to worry about attaching a debugger to the remote program and other fun stuff.
I guess it just depends on how big the project you're working with; but I would have a hard time working with more than, say, 10 files on a remote machine.
Other solutions aren't exactly optimal either. A virtual machine takes up precious RAM and it is slower than bare metal. You're not using all of your machine's resources. WSL works for most things, but fails for others (e.g., Docker, Kubernetes, I/O isn't as fast as it can be).
I've come to the conclusion that doing development on Linux on bare metal is the solution with the least compromises; the biggest one being the loss of access to work-related productivity apps such as MS Office, Outlook, and Adobe products.
* If you fire up an editor on the remote machine, there is going to be typing lag, unless your Linux machine is in your local network. You can ameliorate this with software such as Mosh, but that comes with its own disadvantages (losing scrollback buffers).
* If you edit locally but save the files to the remote system, you have to worry about getting disconnected or your machine shutting off and losing changes.
* If you edit and save locally, then transfer changes later (e.g., using Git), you run and test your code on the remote machine, and have to worry about attaching a debugger to the remote program and other fun stuff.
I guess it just depends on how big the project you're working with; but I would have a hard time working with more than, say, 10 files on a remote machine.
Other solutions aren't exactly optimal either. A virtual machine takes up precious RAM and it is slower than bare metal. You're not using all of your machine's resources. WSL works for most things, but fails for others (e.g., Docker, Kubernetes, I/O isn't as fast as it can be).
I've come to the conclusion that doing development on Linux on bare metal is the solution with the least compromises; the biggest one being the loss of access to work-related productivity apps such as MS Office, Outlook, and Adobe products.
If you fire up an editor on the remote machine, there is going to be typing lag, unless your Linux machine is in your local network. You can ameliorate this with software such as Mosh, but that comes with its own disadvantages (losing scrollback buffers).
No typing lag for me on remote machines (< 70ms). I don't use mosh but the scrollback issue can be solved with tmux which is a must for remote dev.
If you edit locally but save the files to the remote system, you have to worry about getting disconnected or your machine shutting off and losing changes.
Again, learn what tmux is.
No typing lag for me on remote machines (< 70ms). I don't use mosh but the scrollback issue can be solved with tmux which is a must for remote dev.
If you edit locally but save the files to the remote system, you have to worry about getting disconnected or your machine shutting off and losing changes.
Again, learn what tmux is.
Yes, tmux can reduce the pain significantly. But what if you're using anything graphical for development? VS Code, Jetbrains IDEs? I guess you can use X forwarding. But what a pain. And if you're creating a webapp, you still want to see how it looks on a web browser.
But you make some fair points. I will try to use tmux for remote development for a few days.
But you make some fair points. I will try to use tmux for remote development for a few days.
Oh yes, this setup works smoothly only if you use a console editor like vim or emacs IMO, some IDEs/editors let you edit remote config files but I don't like that flow.
* And if you're creating a webapp, you still want to see how it looks on a web browser.*
You know the browser is a networked application right? just like you use your local ssh client to connect to the remote ssh server, you use your local web browser to connect to your remote web server.
* And if you're creating a webapp, you still want to see how it looks on a web browser.*
You know the browser is a networked application right? just like you use your local ssh client to connect to the remote ssh server, you use your local web browser to connect to your remote web server.
I've been using a HP Spectre x360 (13") with Ubuntu 18.04 for the last couple of weeks and it's been working very well for me. I even use the tablet mode when reading PDFs.
Price wise it's quite cheap (same specs as the Dell: i7, 16GB, 1TB SSD, 4k screen) as you can usually find a coupon online. For me it was about EUR300 cheaper than the XPS currently is. So far everything has worked out of the box with exception of the fingerprint reader on the side.
Price wise it's quite cheap (same specs as the Dell: i7, 16GB, 1TB SSD, 4k screen) as you can usually find a coupon online. For me it was about EUR300 cheaper than the XPS currently is. So far everything has worked out of the box with exception of the fingerprint reader on the side.
I've followed a similar progression, and am in the process of adjusting to an XPS 9570 (i7, 4K screen, big battery) running Kubuntu 18.04, from a mid-2012 15" MacBook Pro. Still on the fence - I really want to like the new machine, but it's not being easy. The only improvements really, are the CPU, the screen, and the weight. I would've gladly paid a couple grand to keep the old machine, with a few MacOS bugs fixed and a more modern CPU.
The 4K screen does look pretty, but I still haven't managed to get a workable dual-monitor setup with it alongside a not-4K monitor. I wish there had been an option to buy the not-4K screen, and the bigger CPU and battery, but at least in the NZ Dell store that wasn't available.
The touchpad in particular is driving me nuts - the heel of my typing hand will often cause the touchpad to jump the cursor off to the side mid-line. The surprise of seeing some chunk of code disappear has resulted in too much spilled martini. It often mistakenly detects middle-clicks. Apparently, there are two drivers that can work with this touchpad, and the other one has some settings that may help...
Lots of crashiness and sleep problems I was having turned out to be the nouveau driver being loaded by a systemd service called "nvidia-fallback" - disabling that helped a lot.
A lot of the peripheral experience isn't great coming from Apple-land; in particular the TB16 dock is way overpriced and awkward, especially including the '90s throwback power brick. I'd love to not spend hours getting audio to come out the right port between the computer's headphone jack, the dock's, or the computer's speakers (which, BTW, aren't great).
The 4K screen does look pretty, but I still haven't managed to get a workable dual-monitor setup with it alongside a not-4K monitor. I wish there had been an option to buy the not-4K screen, and the bigger CPU and battery, but at least in the NZ Dell store that wasn't available.
The touchpad in particular is driving me nuts - the heel of my typing hand will often cause the touchpad to jump the cursor off to the side mid-line. The surprise of seeing some chunk of code disappear has resulted in too much spilled martini. It often mistakenly detects middle-clicks. Apparently, there are two drivers that can work with this touchpad, and the other one has some settings that may help...
Lots of crashiness and sleep problems I was having turned out to be the nouveau driver being loaded by a systemd service called "nvidia-fallback" - disabling that helped a lot.
A lot of the peripheral experience isn't great coming from Apple-land; in particular the TB16 dock is way overpriced and awkward, especially including the '90s throwback power brick. I'd love to not spend hours getting audio to come out the right port between the computer's headphone jack, the dock's, or the computer's speakers (which, BTW, aren't great).
i have the 9570 i9/4k and after upgrading to kernel 4.17 almost all problems are gone, i run nixos + i3 and battery sometimes reports 16h+ but in reality I’ve gotten about 9h. i don’t fire up the 1050 at all as i don’t need it.
Did you consider blogging or writing a guide about it?
There is a mismatch on information about the 9570 with chunk of informations here and there if you Google a lot, but nothing definitely well written yet.
There is a mismatch on information about the 9570 with chunk of informations here and there if you Google a lot, but nothing definitely well written yet.
So far, the Dell XPS 9570 is a good challenger to the MBP, but installing Linux is still going to be a small challenge
That Dell makes you scroll down 3-4 screenfuls to see what keyboard it has tells me a little about who their target market isn't.
That Dell makes you scroll down 3-4 screenfuls to see what keyboard it has tells me a little about who their target market isn't.
That's true, but I quite like the keyboard it does have. It's not quite as solid as my old 2012 MacBook Pro, but the difference there is subtle. I've only typed a few paragraphs on the modern MacBook Pro keyboards, and didn't find them too offensive, but would prefer the one on the XPS 9570.
I'm planning on purchasing an XPS 9570 soon as well :)
If you want to use NixOs: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Ortuna/b6e95d6baefd2a1683...
-- with the latest kernel, even the webcam is working now (the only thing that didn't).
-- with the latest kernel, even the webcam is working now (the only thing that didn't).
I have been using Linux on servers since 1993. I have been dual booting SUSE with Windows 2000 on my desktop between 2000-2004. Ubuntu and then Arch has been my daily driver 2004-2017. I am not exactly a Linux newbie. But, based on these long, long years, I swear Linux desktop advocates have Stockholm syndrome. Some experiences: Samsung stopped making drivers for their MFCs so I needed to toss a perfectly working laser MFC because it stopped working with Linux, just like that. Later, a HP MFC caused endless pain, seemingly every other Arch update broke one of Bluetooth / printer of MFC / scanner of MFC. Plain Wifi eventually worked more or less (but see the endless string of bugs with 5GHz) but enterprise wifi always has been a pain. The strange F5 VPN our company used was not particularly Linux friendly -- I could only get it to work by running Firefox as root (yuck!). The only reference to the entire shebang was our IT asking around on various forums how to get it work under Linux and noone answering. And then Firefox stopped supporting extensions and I needed to tether my phone to get on the VPN. We now have a different VPN, no idea about the Linux support.
I am now using Windows 10 with the Linux Subsystem. O&O shutup takes care of the privacy concerns. I have a Lenovo Graphics Dock and docking and undocking is a nonevent. Do you want to be the one who gets an nVidia GPU hotplugging working on Linux -- and keeps it working through all the improvements the Linux desktop goes through? Worse, get IOMMU passthrough working with this setup because most of the games are still Windows only? I don't, that's for sure. I am 43 years old today and there is not enough time left to use a tamagotchi OS. The Linux Subsystem could have a better I/O performance but I will live. It's a surprisingly frustration free life. Some useful configuration tips https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Wi...
Before you inevitably downvote this, please comment where I am wrong. If you feel all the above are trivial, give me an offer for maintaing my Linux, I would actually love to get back there but for the time being I do not feel I can. I yearned for someone to take over desktop sysadmin from me for many years but I absolutely couldn't find anyone so eventually I just gave up.
I am now using Windows 10 with the Linux Subsystem. O&O shutup takes care of the privacy concerns. I have a Lenovo Graphics Dock and docking and undocking is a nonevent. Do you want to be the one who gets an nVidia GPU hotplugging working on Linux -- and keeps it working through all the improvements the Linux desktop goes through? Worse, get IOMMU passthrough working with this setup because most of the games are still Windows only? I don't, that's for sure. I am 43 years old today and there is not enough time left to use a tamagotchi OS. The Linux Subsystem could have a better I/O performance but I will live. It's a surprisingly frustration free life. Some useful configuration tips https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Wi...
Before you inevitably downvote this, please comment where I am wrong. If you feel all the above are trivial, give me an offer for maintaing my Linux, I would actually love to get back there but for the time being I do not feel I can. I yearned for someone to take over desktop sysadmin from me for many years but I absolutely couldn't find anyone so eventually I just gave up.
> Samsung stopped making drivers for their MFCs so I needed to toss a perfectly working laser MFC because it stopped working with Linux, just like that.
Erm... The old drivers stopped working with this particular device?
I had a very similar case with perfectly good HP laser printer, which doesn't work on Window 10 anymore because... dunno? No drivers from HP, though. I'm sure it would work just fine with generic PCL or PostScript driver under CUPS.
> Later, a HP MFC caused endless pain, seemingly every other Arch update broke one of Bluetooth / printer of MFC / scanner of MFC.
Well, that's probably self-inflicted because of your choice of Arch, not because Linux (e.g. Debian).
> Plain Wifi eventually worked more or less (but see the endless string of bugs with 5GHz) but enterprise wifi always has been a pain.
Enterprise Wi-Fi has always been a pain, also under Windows.
> The strange F5 VPN our company used was not particularly Linux friendly
VPNs are usually that way. Very few companies can write sensibly working software that would run under Linux.
> -- I could only get it to work by running Firefox as root (yuck!).
You get pretty much the same under Windows, though you don't see it as clearly.
I don't get why you bash Linux. Windows has the exact same problems.
Erm... The old drivers stopped working with this particular device?
I had a very similar case with perfectly good HP laser printer, which doesn't work on Window 10 anymore because... dunno? No drivers from HP, though. I'm sure it would work just fine with generic PCL or PostScript driver under CUPS.
> Later, a HP MFC caused endless pain, seemingly every other Arch update broke one of Bluetooth / printer of MFC / scanner of MFC.
Well, that's probably self-inflicted because of your choice of Arch, not because Linux (e.g. Debian).
> Plain Wifi eventually worked more or less (but see the endless string of bugs with 5GHz) but enterprise wifi always has been a pain.
Enterprise Wi-Fi has always been a pain, also under Windows.
> The strange F5 VPN our company used was not particularly Linux friendly
VPNs are usually that way. Very few companies can write sensibly working software that would run under Linux.
> -- I could only get it to work by running Firefox as root (yuck!).
You get pretty much the same under Windows, though you don't see it as clearly.
I don't get why you bash Linux. Windows has the exact same problems.
> Erm... The old drivers stopped working with this particular device?
Samsung simply stopped producing Linux drivers. Indeed if you look at https://www.bchemnet.com/suldr/index.html there is more than a few years gap here. Also, if you look at the newer drivers support page now that some models have maximum support versions https://www.bchemnet.com/suldr/supported.html where I persume you are ... if you update -- and "obviously" you can't not to update because eventually some API breaks the driver. My printer broke in 2010 with an Ubuntu update.
> Very few companies can write sensibly working software that would run under Linux.
Which is the problem itself. You got it in one.
> You get pretty much the same under Windows, though you don't see it as clearly.
It's possible I do not see it clearly but the only Bluetooth problem I had was the April Creators update mysteriously changing Chrome to use the internal soundcard which was solved in two clicks in Eartrumpet (which was new to me -- finding that software took a little time). I have yet to meet any of the problems listed: every wifi and VPN I have yet seen have Windows support (and IT is so much more prepared to help if there is a problem), the Bluetooth stack actually didn't break, nor have Windows upgrades haven't broken my MFC yet (although I guess I need to wait -- but how long? I have seen people install HP LaserJet 4 on Win 10 with some struggle). And as I mentioned, my Thunderbolt eGPU just works. Are you saying it would just work on Linux...? Come now.
I love Linux to pieces and I run it on servers and use the userspace components still but I am writing to warn people: it is still not the year of Linux on desktop and probably never will be. Or, if you so prefer, it finally is, it's just Linux on the Windows desktop.
Samsung simply stopped producing Linux drivers. Indeed if you look at https://www.bchemnet.com/suldr/index.html there is more than a few years gap here. Also, if you look at the newer drivers support page now that some models have maximum support versions https://www.bchemnet.com/suldr/supported.html where I persume you are ... if you update -- and "obviously" you can't not to update because eventually some API breaks the driver. My printer broke in 2010 with an Ubuntu update.
> Very few companies can write sensibly working software that would run under Linux.
Which is the problem itself. You got it in one.
> You get pretty much the same under Windows, though you don't see it as clearly.
It's possible I do not see it clearly but the only Bluetooth problem I had was the April Creators update mysteriously changing Chrome to use the internal soundcard which was solved in two clicks in Eartrumpet (which was new to me -- finding that software took a little time). I have yet to meet any of the problems listed: every wifi and VPN I have yet seen have Windows support (and IT is so much more prepared to help if there is a problem), the Bluetooth stack actually didn't break, nor have Windows upgrades haven't broken my MFC yet (although I guess I need to wait -- but how long? I have seen people install HP LaserJet 4 on Win 10 with some struggle). And as I mentioned, my Thunderbolt eGPU just works. Are you saying it would just work on Linux...? Come now.
I love Linux to pieces and I run it on servers and use the userspace components still but I am writing to warn people: it is still not the year of Linux on desktop and probably never will be. Or, if you so prefer, it finally is, it's just Linux on the Windows desktop.
Look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17670079 is mih bashing Linux for stating
> I have faced no problems w.r.t stability. ... Occasionally the Desktop compositor hits a snag freezing my machine and requiring a forced reboot
No problems with stability ... except sometimes the machine freezes to an extent where a forced reboot is necessary.
> I have faced no problems w.r.t stability. ... Occasionally the Desktop compositor hits a snag freezing my machine and requiring a forced reboot
No problems with stability ... except sometimes the machine freezes to an extent where a forced reboot is necessary.
I don't think Arch was the right distro if you wanted a hands-off "just works" experience. Happy Birthday BTW!
I switched from Ubuntu because the six month upgrades made the machine unusable with many things breaking, the smaller updates in Arch at least only broke once thing at a time.
Thanks!
Thanks!
I have a Dell XPS 13 and it's fantastic. I'm running Ubuntu 18.04 on it. I've run into typical issues with UEFI vs BIOS and problems with Secure boot, but that's typical of nearly every new laptop nowadays. Had problems with Manjaro running KDE dropping bluetooth connections, but Ubuntu 18.04 runs great.
I have a thinkpad T470(Fedora 28) and T470p(QubesOS) that runs Linux just fine. Without any driver issues. The battery life is excellent once you install the tlp packages.
Too bad its 16:9 aspect ratio gives you less screen real-estate than the macbook pro 13.
But did they fix the coil whine?
FYI: 9370 has smaller battery than 9360 while having same panel and most of internals
The performance seems great in comparison. But this laptop seems a bit thin for my taste. There would be room to almost double the battery if the thickness was increased. There would also be room for USB-A and a LAN port. Two things I would really like to see.
Also I read a lot of bad experiences here on HN with the XPS line every time it comes up. Personally I know at least two people who had a bad experience with it and ended up replacing the machine with something else. Is Dell improving on that part or has it stabilized?
On paper the machine looks really good but right now I just can't justify pulling the trigger to replace a Retina-MBP.
Also I read a lot of bad experiences here on HN with the XPS line every time it comes up. Personally I know at least two people who had a bad experience with it and ended up replacing the machine with something else. Is Dell improving on that part or has it stabilized?
On paper the machine looks really good but right now I just can't justify pulling the trigger to replace a Retina-MBP.
> Also I read a lot of bad experiences here on HN with the XPS line every time it comes up. Personally I know at least two people who had a bad experience with it and ended up replacing the machine with something else. Is Dell improving on that part or has it stabilized?
Haha, yes, I'm one of the unfortunate people that use XPS 13 9350 and have had a lot of issues with it. On the other hand I installed Arch recently and everything works out of the box, including touch screen, that really surprised me.
Personally I would blame Intel for their crappy hardware (all issues were with Intel peripherals), but that's me.
Haha, yes, I'm one of the unfortunate people that use XPS 13 9350 and have had a lot of issues with it. On the other hand I installed Arch recently and everything works out of the box, including touch screen, that really surprised me.
Personally I would blame Intel for their crappy hardware (all issues were with Intel peripherals), but that's me.
I have the previous model, the 9360, and my only real complaint is the touch pad. Palm rejection is just terrible, so much so that I've considered just turning off the touch pad and using a mouse.
One nice feature of the touch pad is that the scrolling direction for the mouse is independent of that for the touch pad. This means I can set the mouse to work like mice always have, before Apple invented "natural" scrolling, but have the touch pad use "natural" mode. For some reason, this actually feels right to me. I wish my Macbook Pro could do this.
One nice feature of the touch pad is that the scrolling direction for the mouse is independent of that for the touch pad. This means I can set the mouse to work like mice always have, before Apple invented "natural" scrolling, but have the touch pad use "natural" mode. For some reason, this actually feels right to me. I wish my Macbook Pro could do this.
I haven't used it but try:
"Scroll Reverser is a free Mac app that reverses the direction of scrolling. It is available for macOS 10.4 through 10.13.
It has independent settings for trackpads, mice and Wacom tablets, and for horizontal and vertical scrolling. "
https://pilotmoon.com/scrollreverser/
"Scroll Reverser is a free Mac app that reverses the direction of scrolling. It is available for macOS 10.4 through 10.13.
It has independent settings for trackpads, mice and Wacom tablets, and for horizontal and vertical scrolling. "
https://pilotmoon.com/scrollreverser/
I've been using this for a while now, and it has been a godsend.
That said, I do consider it a ding against MacOs, because it's ridiculous that I'm forced to use third-party tools for such basic functionality. (Other examples: USB-tethering with non-Apple phones requires hunting down and installing third-party drivers. A feature that just works, out-of-the-box, on every other system I've ever used.)
That said, I do consider it a ding against MacOs, because it's ridiculous that I'm forced to use third-party tools for such basic functionality. (Other examples: USB-tethering with non-Apple phones requires hunting down and installing third-party drivers. A feature that just works, out-of-the-box, on every other system I've ever used.)
I've used it for a long time now. It was set-and-forget and has done the job properly ever since I installed it. No complaints.
Nice! Thanks!
Here's a comment explaining how I fixed palm detection onmy XPS 15:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589505
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589505
" I wish my Macbook Pro could do this."
What you describe is a feature of the OS, not the hardware, right?
What you describe is a feature of the OS, not the hardware, right?
It is, however the two are somewhat inseparable in this case.
Which OS do you run on your XPS that you cannot run on your MBP?
Personally, my 9350 has me never wanting to own a Dell again. Touchpad alone.
Same here, I am still pissed because of the flicker issues I have with the screen of my XPS 15 9530 and today I saw that the builtin battery is down to 70% of its original capacity.
Sure, they look pretty and the Linux support is good, but the build quality didn't satisfy my expectations.
Sure, they look pretty and the Linux support is good, but the build quality didn't satisfy my expectations.
I use middle click to paste all time and it's one of the reasons I bought only laptops with 3 hardware buttons on the touchpad so far. How does middle click work with the kind of touchpad on the XPS?
Buttonless touch pads can be configured to support different actions for two/three finger click [1]. I use Gnome where the default is right click on a two finger tap and middle click on a three finger tap. [2]
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Touchpad_Synaptics#Butt...
[2] https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/mouse-touchpa...
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Touchpad_Synaptics#Butt...
[2] https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/mouse-touchpa...
Don't you ever move the pointer when tapping with two or three fingers? It's called pointer nudge. That's the other reason for hardware buttons.
Seriously, why not learn keyboard shortcuts? Strange to depend on such an idiosyncratic feature.
They most probably know about the keyboard shortcut to paste.
Linux' "Select to copy + middle-click to paste" just saves a lot of time, and has the extra bonus of being a clipboard parallel to the one accessible via traditional copy-paste shortcuts and GUI menus.....
Linux' "Select to copy + middle-click to paste" just saves a lot of time, and has the extra bonus of being a clipboard parallel to the one accessible via traditional copy-paste shortcuts and GUI menus.....
> "You're holding it wrong"
Many people select text using the mouse, then reposition the cursor using the mouse. It's convenient to then insert the selected text using the mouse — the entire operation is done without touching the keyboard.
Many people select text using the mouse, then reposition the cursor using the mouse. It's convenient to then insert the selected text using the mouse — the entire operation is done without touching the keyboard.
[deleted]
It's more ergonomic and an Unix UI feature, that has been there a long time.
It does work on my older xps 13...
Just slap three fingers on the pad.
But it's not 100% reliable.
When I'm not using a mouse, I mostly prefer shift-ins... since the hand is already on the keyboard...
But it's not 100% reliable.
When I'm not using a mouse, I mostly prefer shift-ins... since the hand is already on the keyboard...
Nobody sell my ideal laptop.
It must have 15 inch Builtin 4K display, Ethernet, display port, multiple USB ports and No Nvidia GPU.
I usually don't move my laptop so I prefer 15 inch over 13 inch. But I like my primary computer ready to be carried anywhere so I don't want desktop.
I don't play video game or graphics on my primary computer so I don't need a dedicated GPU. Also Fuck you Nvidia.
There are 13 inch laptop which satisfy everything else or 15 inch with Nvidia GPU. I guess there is not much demand for my ideal.
It must have 15 inch Builtin 4K display, Ethernet, display port, multiple USB ports and No Nvidia GPU.
I usually don't move my laptop so I prefer 15 inch over 13 inch. But I like my primary computer ready to be carried anywhere so I don't want desktop.
I don't play video game or graphics on my primary computer so I don't need a dedicated GPU. Also Fuck you Nvidia.
There are 13 inch laptop which satisfy everything else or 15 inch with Nvidia GPU. I guess there is not much demand for my ideal.
You can get the Dell Precision 5530 with a quad-core i5 with hyper-threading and integrated graphics if you are willing to use a usb ethernet dongle. I have the 5520, the previous version and it's great.
Wow. It really does satisfy my ideal laptop.
EDIT: No builtin Ethernet port. Not my ideal.
Dell precision 7530 I think has that config. You can get Xeon m with no Nvidia. There are others in the precision line too.
T580 - some SKUs.
Why Nvidia hate?
If OP is at all involved in using or developing for Linux, it seems justifiable... Their approach to linux support has been anything from "poor" to "outright hostile" for a long time. AMD and Intel do a far, far better job of enabling and contributing to open source development and drivers, using standard kernel APIs, etc.
I remember back in the early 2.4 days. Nvidia was the only way to play games in Linux. Things sure have changed.
My one: nvidia is the reason I have to log in blindfolded 50% of the time cos no modeset... Or I can use nouveau and melt my computer. Yeah I know this shouldn't usually happen until starting an xserver but this is a weird dual nvidia GPU though apple GMUX and sometimes the GPIO bit setting the correct GPU gets stuck so I get blank tty before even starting x.
Nvidia is horrible at supporting GNU/Linux.
Other than its weird webcam location, it looks great.
One problem I have with my XPS 13 is the keyboard. It's too small for me to type without making lots of errors (I'm used to the size of keyboards on 14 inch laptops and full size pcs). Also the feel of the keys has no click and feels stiff. I often don't push the left shift properly due to the stiffness.
two of several appeals of Linux to me are the fact that it is free and modest on resources.
from that angle it seems slightly ironic that all those great Linux laptops leave the 1000 usd mark way behind them.
thing is, I'm actually intending to buy a laptop and have Mint run on it.
any suggestions for a laptop cheaper than 1k?
I'm eyeing Dell latitude 5480.
from that angle it seems slightly ironic that all those great Linux laptops leave the 1000 usd mark way behind them.
thing is, I'm actually intending to buy a laptop and have Mint run on it.
any suggestions for a laptop cheaper than 1k?
I'm eyeing Dell latitude 5480.
I bought a used acer from 2012 and the only bad thing is battery life of around three hours. Can't imagine paying for a new laptop
i had very bad experiences 1st and 2nd hand with Acer, though. unprovoked crashes, WiFi not working without significant research and fiddling. multiple models.
The Dell XPS 13 is what a mac book pro is supposed to be.
Except for the 16:9 screen. I'm so done working with such a narrow aspect ratio.
Everything old is new again: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_Lka7Tsmkk/maxresdefault.jpg
Unfortunately, from what I've been told by one of the guys in Dell's Sputnik program, they gauge interest on the Linux Dell laptops strictly by the number of people who buy Developer Edition laptops. So the author is not helping the cause by buying a Windows 10 laptop and loading Linux onto it.
Believe me, I get it. The Windows ones go on sale, while the Developer Editions pretty much never do. I'm guilty of buying a Win10 one myself before this was explained to me. Just passing that info on. If you want to support the future of Linux on Dell laptops, I strongly urge you to buy the ones with Linux pre-loaded, from Dell.