Ask HN: Advice on finding an entry level job in NYC?
72 comments
Realistically, it probably would be your best bet to come over as a student and then once you're here if you are aggressively working hard on the side to build a network and show value in various contexts, you'll be more likely to be able to parley that into a working opportunity.
Let's be realistic, New York City is a city of opportunity where everything imaginable is happening all of the time. But getting work sponsorship from afar except for a very exclusive pool of ultra high-demand folks can be quite difficult.
A piece of advice: to a native English reader, your written English is dropping articles like "a", "an" and "the"-- I can only imagine how frustratingly arbitrary it must seem but these immediately make your written word appear less ready to go. You don't want to be put in that box and rejected from consideration out of the gate. Something to look out for.
Another angle folks will take is to get a job for a US or particularly New York city-based company in Europe, be a go-getter impressing folks to the extent that they'll be willing to give you what you want to keep you then you can make the move.
Let's be realistic, New York City is a city of opportunity where everything imaginable is happening all of the time. But getting work sponsorship from afar except for a very exclusive pool of ultra high-demand folks can be quite difficult.
A piece of advice: to a native English reader, your written English is dropping articles like "a", "an" and "the"-- I can only imagine how frustratingly arbitrary it must seem but these immediately make your written word appear less ready to go. You don't want to be put in that box and rejected from consideration out of the gate. Something to look out for.
Another angle folks will take is to get a job for a US or particularly New York city-based company in Europe, be a go-getter impressing folks to the extent that they'll be willing to give you what you want to keep you then you can make the move.
If someone has a reasonable grasp of English (Like OP appears to have). I would highly recommend Grammarly[0]. It should be able to compensate for those "frustratingly arbitrary" facets of our language.
[0]: https://www.grammarly.com/Woah, as a native English speaker, that's cool.
(Just for fun, I put a few errors in and it caught them, including these one ;-)
(Just for fun, I put a few errors in and it caught them, including these one ;-)
I'm more frustrated by my own inability to tell the "rules" of English. I can tell something "sounds odd" but I don't know enough grammar rules to know what is "correct" grammar and what isn't.
For example, saying "Google are deciding to go back to China PR" sounds completely incorrect to me. It ought to be Google IS, imo but clearly enough people do this.
For example, saying "Google are deciding to go back to China PR" sounds completely incorrect to me. It ought to be Google IS, imo but clearly enough people do this.
"Google IS deciding to go back to China PR" is correct in American English. The entity is singular.
I was taught that because Google is made up of many people, it should be treated as plural. It’s probably subjective.
It's a US vs UK thing. In the US, a group or organization IS <something>, in the UK, they ARE <something>.
This was particularly noticeable during the World Cup coverage.
This was particularly noticeable during the World Cup coverage.
It's a UK/US thing; in the UK your understanding is correct (I like it better stylistically too, but I use "singular companies" to fit in in the US)
And if you mean past tense, possibly “Google decided to go back to China PR”!
Are you allowed to work as a student?
As a student on F-1 visa, there are multiple ways one can work. On campus of the university that they are enrolled into in any job. The hours must not collide with the enrolled classes. As an unpaid intern (volunteer). Or as a co-op for two semesters at the most, as full time and get paid.
From what I have read there are some rules on working time
I have heard otherwise, and this seems to corroborate it : https://www.hccmis.com/blog/study-abroad/4-ways-to-work-in-t...
Very limited.
Very limited.
[deleted]
Our company is NYC based and has (and continues to be open to) sponsoring people to move and work in NY. Can only speak for our perspective:
The clearest path for us is to 1) have a skill set that is relevant to us and 2) be good at it.
If you can add value to our team it’s a no brainer for us. My family immigrated to the US and I think there is a lot to be said about someone who is willing to drop everything they know and are comfortable with and bust their ass to make it somewhere else. Make no mistake, this is not going to be an easy journey for you.
From our perspective, I have observed that some of our most loyal and bought in employees are the ones we brought over. Part of it is attitude, part of it is work ethic, part of it is the principle of reciprocity. We also know there is far less risk of an employee we are sponsoring to walk away and work somewhere else for a few extra dollars.
That’s my two cents. I suspect principal decision makers will be aligned with the above. It’s not that much extra work to sponsor someone and I think most people will do it for the right person.
I would not do this for an untested totally entry level grad most likely.
The clearest path for us is to 1) have a skill set that is relevant to us and 2) be good at it.
If you can add value to our team it’s a no brainer for us. My family immigrated to the US and I think there is a lot to be said about someone who is willing to drop everything they know and are comfortable with and bust their ass to make it somewhere else. Make no mistake, this is not going to be an easy journey for you.
From our perspective, I have observed that some of our most loyal and bought in employees are the ones we brought over. Part of it is attitude, part of it is work ethic, part of it is the principle of reciprocity. We also know there is far less risk of an employee we are sponsoring to walk away and work somewhere else for a few extra dollars.
That’s my two cents. I suspect principal decision makers will be aligned with the above. It’s not that much extra work to sponsor someone and I think most people will do it for the right person.
I would not do this for an untested totally entry level grad most likely.
> some of our most loyal and bought in employees are the ones we brought over.
...and part of it is that if you fire them they lose their visa... not to be cynical but are you sure it’s loyalty and not fear?
(Aside: what is a “loyal” employee anyway? I’ve always hated when companies use terms like “loyalty” or “family” because they really misconstrue the employment relationship. It’s a business arrangement, nothing else. “Loyalty” should not be expected and if it is, it’s an indicator that the company is taking advantage of the employee IMO. Why can’t we just be open about the fact that we work, first and foremost, for money? Anything else is secondary. I wouldn’t expect an employer to show loyalty to me as an employee — they can fire me whenever they want — so I have no interest in showing loyalty to them.)
...and part of it is that if you fire them they lose their visa... not to be cynical but are you sure it’s loyalty and not fear?
(Aside: what is a “loyal” employee anyway? I’ve always hated when companies use terms like “loyalty” or “family” because they really misconstrue the employment relationship. It’s a business arrangement, nothing else. “Loyalty” should not be expected and if it is, it’s an indicator that the company is taking advantage of the employee IMO. Why can’t we just be open about the fact that we work, first and foremost, for money? Anything else is secondary. I wouldn’t expect an employer to show loyalty to me as an employee — they can fire me whenever they want — so I have no interest in showing loyalty to them.)
Whether or not an employee stays with us because of fear or because they think we are giving them an opportunity of a lifetime, is a matter of perspective. The question that may lay at the heart of this is what drives that optimistic vs cynical view? I would argue context.
Let me start by saying that I believe people are loyal to people, not things (ie companies).
I believe we could agree that loyalty isnt something that reasonable people should expect. It is earned.
I believe we could agree that loyalty is a two-way street. That it is unfair / irrational / unreasonable that a manager should expect loyalty from its employees without reciprocating that loyalty to them (which can be done in many many different ways outside of comp)
While I can fire anyone on the spot and they can leave at any time they want, I believe the reality of life, people and social creatures operating in a free and just society are a little more complicated than that. I hate the idea of busting my ass for someone out of loyalty for them and our cause and not being recognized for it. There is a point at which doing that consistently migrates from loyalty to abuse. I've been there. I choose not be that kind of manager. There is a potential that I am, which is why I do my best to communicate broadly my commitment to being fair, principled and rationale. Alas, there is definitely a potential that I am making mistakes too.
Personally, I can see it in their face, tone, passion, and gratitude that the people we sponsored are loyal and it motives me to go above and beyond for them in moments where all reasonable people can agree I shouldnt / didnt have to / was above and beyond the call of duty. It manifests itself in subtle ways, like hanging around the office a little bit longer every day to couch them. Or giving them unlimited paid vacations (which no one has ever abused), Investing more in their development and training, or, investing in the companies they leave to start (which is what my managers for me when I left to start our company). Loyalty is very, very real and when it is present, it creates an incredible bond between people. I will drop almost anything I am doing for my team and I am confident almost everyone on the team would do the same. In that, there is an implicit trust that this commitment to each other will be valued and not abused. When that line is crossed, it is crossed and loyalty is compromised.
Quick random aside: to this day, I know the name of the man who sponsored some poor Greek kid who had a penchant for math 50 years ago to start a new life in America. Had that person not done that, this conversation and my existence would not have happened. I havent seen Yannis since I was a little kid and he probably hasnt thought of me in decades. As random and weird as this sounds, part of why I enjoy sponsoring people is that it thrills me to pay that forward and know I could potentially have a similar impact on someone's life. I believe that makes me loyal to him in some way. A bit irrational perhaps, but it makes me feel good.
Rant over. Thank you for listening.
Let me start by saying that I believe people are loyal to people, not things (ie companies).
I believe we could agree that loyalty isnt something that reasonable people should expect. It is earned.
I believe we could agree that loyalty is a two-way street. That it is unfair / irrational / unreasonable that a manager should expect loyalty from its employees without reciprocating that loyalty to them (which can be done in many many different ways outside of comp)
While I can fire anyone on the spot and they can leave at any time they want, I believe the reality of life, people and social creatures operating in a free and just society are a little more complicated than that. I hate the idea of busting my ass for someone out of loyalty for them and our cause and not being recognized for it. There is a point at which doing that consistently migrates from loyalty to abuse. I've been there. I choose not be that kind of manager. There is a potential that I am, which is why I do my best to communicate broadly my commitment to being fair, principled and rationale. Alas, there is definitely a potential that I am making mistakes too.
Personally, I can see it in their face, tone, passion, and gratitude that the people we sponsored are loyal and it motives me to go above and beyond for them in moments where all reasonable people can agree I shouldnt / didnt have to / was above and beyond the call of duty. It manifests itself in subtle ways, like hanging around the office a little bit longer every day to couch them. Or giving them unlimited paid vacations (which no one has ever abused), Investing more in their development and training, or, investing in the companies they leave to start (which is what my managers for me when I left to start our company). Loyalty is very, very real and when it is present, it creates an incredible bond between people. I will drop almost anything I am doing for my team and I am confident almost everyone on the team would do the same. In that, there is an implicit trust that this commitment to each other will be valued and not abused. When that line is crossed, it is crossed and loyalty is compromised.
Quick random aside: to this day, I know the name of the man who sponsored some poor Greek kid who had a penchant for math 50 years ago to start a new life in America. Had that person not done that, this conversation and my existence would not have happened. I havent seen Yannis since I was a little kid and he probably hasnt thought of me in decades. As random and weird as this sounds, part of why I enjoy sponsoring people is that it thrills me to pay that forward and know I could potentially have a similar impact on someone's life. I believe that makes me loyal to him in some way. A bit irrational perhaps, but it makes me feel good.
Rant over. Thank you for listening.
Do you ever have issues with (US) candidates not wanting to live in the NYC area?
In theory I’m sure we would but we are a small company and clearly state that it would be a non starter for us so anyone with that preference would not bother applying.
We leverage remote workers for specialized consulting (such as legacy IE browser debugging) but we not for full time hires.
We leverage remote workers for specialized consulting (such as legacy IE browser debugging) but we not for full time hires.
I don't understand this strategy.
Isn't NYC in the top 10 most expensive places to live? If you're a small company, wouldn't you want to downsize expenses and not pay for excessive salaries, commercial rent, taxes, etc?
Isn't NYC in the top 10 most expensive places to live? If you're a small company, wouldn't you want to downsize expenses and not pay for excessive salaries, commercial rent, taxes, etc?
Of course I would (in theory)! The reality is different though.
New Yorkers are reasonable people that would agree that the quality of our lives (as measured by our habitat, access to air, nature etc) living almost ANYWHERE outside of NYC in the continental US would be higher. Everyone who has lived in New York for years knows this.
You live in NYC because of the people and opportunities. The incredible amount of intellectual fire power that is crossing the street at the same time as you, or having a beer at the end of your block, is unbelievable and incredibly motivating. They come from all walks of life, doing all manner of jobs, and many of them perform those jobs at the highest level of their industries globally. I grew up in Georgia, and the odds of coming across people of that caliber casually on the way to the grocery store or whatever, are almost zero.
If I could get this while living in Santa Barbara, believe me I would. The math just doesn't support it. Of course, this may not be what everyone at any particular point in time values. I appreciate that, NYC is not for them.
New Yorkers are reasonable people that would agree that the quality of our lives (as measured by our habitat, access to air, nature etc) living almost ANYWHERE outside of NYC in the continental US would be higher. Everyone who has lived in New York for years knows this.
You live in NYC because of the people and opportunities. The incredible amount of intellectual fire power that is crossing the street at the same time as you, or having a beer at the end of your block, is unbelievable and incredibly motivating. They come from all walks of life, doing all manner of jobs, and many of them perform those jobs at the highest level of their industries globally. I grew up in Georgia, and the odds of coming across people of that caliber casually on the way to the grocery store or whatever, are almost zero.
If I could get this while living in Santa Barbara, believe me I would. The math just doesn't support it. Of course, this may not be what everyone at any particular point in time values. I appreciate that, NYC is not for them.
What sort of salary range does a SWE or SRE earn in NYC with respect to the type of person you mention?
I've never encountered a SWE who was 10x more effective than the SWE next to him. Perhaps I'm inexperienced.
I've never encountered a SWE who was 10x more effective than the SWE next to him. Perhaps I'm inexperienced.
What would you propose as an alternative strategy?
The billing rates tend to be high to compensate based on my experience with consulting. There is no city in the world like NYC, and it has so much to offer. That's not to say there aren't constraints of different types, but it can be an amazing place to live and do business.
I'm a Northern Irish guy now living in Philadelphia. I think in a lot of ways it is now much more preferable to NYC for me. Anytime I go back to NYC I feel completely energised by the environment.
The billing rates tend to be high to compensate based on my experience with consulting. There is no city in the world like NYC, and it has so much to offer. That's not to say there aren't constraints of different types, but it can be an amazing place to live and do business.
I'm a Northern Irish guy now living in Philadelphia. I think in a lot of ways it is now much more preferable to NYC for me. Anytime I go back to NYC I feel completely energised by the environment.
I've never been, I am ignorant.
Alternative - Tech cities with moderate cost of living or suburbs of the majors. So..Texas Triangle (Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio), Research Triangle Park (Raleigh-Durham), Chicago.
Alternative - Tech cities with moderate cost of living or suburbs of the majors. So..Texas Triangle (Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio), Research Triangle Park (Raleigh-Durham), Chicago.
> We leverage remote workers for specialized consulting (such as legacy IE browser debugging) but we not for full time hires.
Do you have any interest in hiring someone to do remote consulting in the areas of accessibility and screen reader usability?
Do you have any interest in hiring someone to do remote consulting in the areas of accessibility and screen reader usability?
I'm very interested in this too (British - have always wanted to move to NYC).
A few years back, I sent out some speculative applications to companies in NYC for senior-level roles, but didn't receive anything back outside of one company that said they couldn't sponsor a visa. Some were startups, some were larger companies, and a few agencies using the same stack as I was experienced in.
The common route seems to be applying to work for a larger company that can sponsor a visa. I tried this too with some companies on the Stack Overflow jobs page, but again none of them came back to me, even when I took their take-home tests. My uninformed guess is that visas are hard to obtain, even more so nowadays, so that you'd need a mixture of luck and opportunity to get that role.
A few years back, I sent out some speculative applications to companies in NYC for senior-level roles, but didn't receive anything back outside of one company that said they couldn't sponsor a visa. Some were startups, some were larger companies, and a few agencies using the same stack as I was experienced in.
The common route seems to be applying to work for a larger company that can sponsor a visa. I tried this too with some companies on the Stack Overflow jobs page, but again none of them came back to me, even when I took their take-home tests. My uninformed guess is that visas are hard to obtain, even more so nowadays, so that you'd need a mixture of luck and opportunity to get that role.
I'm British (Northern Irish) and I moved to the US in 2004 on an H1B visa. You are unlikely to have much success applying for roles where you may be competing with folks who may not need visas. It's a challenge for companies to even get visas and they could attempt to hire you, only to be unable to get a visa.
I see two paths other than marrying an American:
1. Join an EU or UK (I guess that might matter soon) company which has a presence in the US and actually sends folks to the US. US companies with an EU presence might be another option. It really depends where you end up in a big company so you have to do your research on how you might end up being transferred. There is no point in joining a pharma company to do work in IT when bioinformatics folks are the ones who have the opportunity to transfer, unless you are prepared to make that move internally as a prerequisite.
2. Do work with a US company in some sort of subcontractor, outsourcing, or supplier relationship. This is how I made my move because I was doing development for the marketing department of a large pharma company. I developed relationships on both side of the pond and they worked out the path to bring me to the US since I had become critical to their work. This requires a lot of luck and legwork and the the arrangement on the other side won't be like an international transfer at a large company. I turned up in Philly alone with two suitcases with all the stuff I was going to bring to start a new life.
Both of these approaches need more hustle now than they ever did before, but aren't impossible if you are actually motivated enough, work at your credentials (get a master's degree!) etc.
If you are Northern Irish, I think you can still have a shot at the lottery (https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/diversity-visa).
I see two paths other than marrying an American:
1. Join an EU or UK (I guess that might matter soon) company which has a presence in the US and actually sends folks to the US. US companies with an EU presence might be another option. It really depends where you end up in a big company so you have to do your research on how you might end up being transferred. There is no point in joining a pharma company to do work in IT when bioinformatics folks are the ones who have the opportunity to transfer, unless you are prepared to make that move internally as a prerequisite.
2. Do work with a US company in some sort of subcontractor, outsourcing, or supplier relationship. This is how I made my move because I was doing development for the marketing department of a large pharma company. I developed relationships on both side of the pond and they worked out the path to bring me to the US since I had become critical to their work. This requires a lot of luck and legwork and the the arrangement on the other side won't be like an international transfer at a large company. I turned up in Philly alone with two suitcases with all the stuff I was going to bring to start a new life.
Both of these approaches need more hustle now than they ever did before, but aren't impossible if you are actually motivated enough, work at your credentials (get a master's degree!) etc.
If you are Northern Irish, I think you can still have a shot at the lottery (https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/diversity-visa).
Coming from the UK with language proficiency, I would recommend getting a job in a company that will later be able to transfer you overseas, of course they will only do so if you really impress them, and when you're first getting a job getting your foot in the door, I wouldn't even bring up that that was a long term aspiration. The reason it's tough to accept a net new applicant from abroad except with those unicorn credentials, is there's that level of risk that this net new applicant won't pan out and all of a sudden the the company has wasted a visa sponsorship on that.
I live in a decent-sized UK city, but I think I'd struggle to find any roles where the company has.
1. Has interesting/non-soul-destroying work.
2. Has a NYC office that shares a development department
3. Has an open culture of relocating
It sounds like a huge risk to move to a job you probably wouldn't choose otherwise, on the potential possibility that you might be able to move you and your family abroad. Given your company would need to match all three prerequisites above, you'd also probably have slim pickings unless you already live in a major city.
1. Has interesting/non-soul-destroying work.
2. Has a NYC office that shares a development department
3. Has an open culture of relocating
It sounds like a huge risk to move to a job you probably wouldn't choose otherwise, on the potential possibility that you might be able to move you and your family abroad. Given your company would need to match all three prerequisites above, you'd also probably have slim pickings unless you already live in a major city.
Just the hassle/cost of flying someone to do an on-site interview is a deterrent.
A few start ups in NYC ( myself included) are moving to kingston , New york (upstate). In NYC everyone is hustling. If your young and ambitious and can sell yourself your skills, you will find a job. I don't know about the visa stuff. Housing IS damn expensive yeah but you can live in greenpoint, Brooklyn with roommates or move uptown ( Washington Heights) then you have jackson Heights ( Queens) or sunnyside , Queens it's cheaper then living in money makin manhattan if you have 0 connects. When you make friends you will want to network with them to find an apartment or work. You will build a network of friends and those friends who are working at companies will get you into a job. That's how it works here. People are always moving out / changing jobs. Companies are always hiring. The experience will be unforgettable. Nothing like it. After some time you'll get burned from the grind and may want to bounce somewhere else. You'll never know till you get here! and Plenty of front end jobs. Good Lucky!
I usually read that in NYC and California the is a LOT of job changing constantly. But when I see a LinkedIn profile there isn't that much job changes in the experience section. I imagine 20 jobs i.e but I usually see more around 7 or at most 10. Is this really a reality down there? At least for NYC?
Kingston is a charming town, but it's bucolic. It's not a great place to network or recruit.
One of the best pieces of advice is to not go to New York City. Everything, from rent to groceries is at least double what you'd pay anywhere else.
If you're dead set on living in a city, Chicago and Boston are flooded with technical growth at the moment. If budget is a big factor, consider Cincinnati. It's smaller but growing and dirt cheap to live quite well!
If you're dead set on living in a city, Chicago and Boston are flooded with technical growth at the moment. If budget is a big factor, consider Cincinnati. It's smaller but growing and dirt cheap to live quite well!
Groceries are most certainly not twice as much in NYC. If you shop at Whole Foods then maybe yes but that is true of every city. And no not "everything" else is twice the price either. Rent prices are burdensome. But if you are willing to share a place with others you can make it work. Many people do.
There are multiple meet ups every weekday night in NYC. You can connect and network with people quickly and efficiently. And for free. The economy is booming. And like everywhere else there's always a need for good smart people.
Do not listen to the OP. If you really want to move to NYC then do it. The worst case is that you don't manage to find something by the time your tourist visa is running out and you have to leave. But you would have hopefully made some contacts/connections for the future and had a life experience in the process.
There are multiple meet ups every weekday night in NYC. You can connect and network with people quickly and efficiently. And for free. The economy is booming. And like everywhere else there's always a need for good smart people.
Do not listen to the OP. If you really want to move to NYC then do it. The worst case is that you don't manage to find something by the time your tourist visa is running out and you have to leave. But you would have hopefully made some contacts/connections for the future and had a life experience in the process.
In my experience Whole Foods is the cheapest grocery store in the city... and certainly the best value all around. Bloomberg did a study four years ago saying so [0], and they’ve become much cheaper post Amazon.
OP: don’t listen to the neigh sayers, come to NYC! I always thought I’d end up in Chicago, I’ve lived in Boston and a bunch of other places similar to what others are suggesting, and there’s truly no comparison.
Last thing: as a former Midwesterner (a region known for its friendliness) I can say New Yorkers are the friendliest people in America. It’s a city that draws people from all over the world who are excited to be here and passionate about what they do. If you want to be here you’ll figure out a way!
[0] https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014...
OP: don’t listen to the neigh sayers, come to NYC! I always thought I’d end up in Chicago, I’ve lived in Boston and a bunch of other places similar to what others are suggesting, and there’s truly no comparison.
Last thing: as a former Midwesterner (a region known for its friendliness) I can say New Yorkers are the friendliest people in America. It’s a city that draws people from all over the world who are excited to be here and passionate about what they do. If you want to be here you’ll figure out a way!
[0] https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014...
> In my experience Whole Foods is the cheapest grocery store in the city
Have you been to china town? Yeah, sure, if you compare whole foods to other upscale groceries, that can be the case ... but even Trader Joes is cheaper.
There are two groups of people in New York. Those who get it and those who don't. And those who don't, pay twice as much for everything, including groceries.
Have you been to china town? Yeah, sure, if you compare whole foods to other upscale groceries, that can be the case ... but even Trader Joes is cheaper.
There are two groups of people in New York. Those who get it and those who don't. And those who don't, pay twice as much for everything, including groceries.
Have I been to “china town”? Yes, I’ve lived in Chinatown.
Bloomberg’s point was that it’s cheaper than all grocery stores, not just the “upscale” ones... I live next to a C Town and the WF is much cheaper. A lot of the street vendors in Chinatown have produce that is less expensive than certain items than a(ny) grocery store, but they’re not grocery stores, and that’s what I was responding to. And unless you’re planning on eating your durian and bok choy solo—or planning on using some toilet paper after—you’re not really “getting it”.
It’s also cheaper to just eat at Vanessa’s every day, but again, you’re missing the point.
Bloomberg’s point was that it’s cheaper than all grocery stores, not just the “upscale” ones... I live next to a C Town and the WF is much cheaper. A lot of the street vendors in Chinatown have produce that is less expensive than certain items than a(ny) grocery store, but they’re not grocery stores, and that’s what I was responding to. And unless you’re planning on eating your durian and bok choy solo—or planning on using some toilet paper after—you’re not really “getting it”.
It’s also cheaper to just eat at Vanessa’s every day, but again, you’re missing the point.
Since you lived there, you should know there are plenty of independent grocery stores that stock all those items and are cheaper than WF. And I gave you the example of Trader Joes, on top of everything, which is definitely cheaper than WF.
What exactly are you arguing? That the poor and middle class of NY shop for their food at WholeFoods? Are you bonkers?
What exactly are you arguing? That the poor and middle class of NY shop for their food at WholeFoods? Are you bonkers?
yes if you live in tribeca and shop at chelsea market (or whatever mishmash of manhattan proper nouns) that's true but if you live in a middle-class neighborhood in brooklyn (bedstuy, crown heights) or queens (sunnyside, elmhurst) both rent and groceries are very reasonable. and yes the trains do get you into the city in 30-45 (A/C in brooklyn and 7/E in queens).
I'd second Chicago and Boston (haven't been to Cincinnati) and also recommend considering Philadelphia as well.
Philly is substantially cheaper than NYC (both in rent and general cost of living) but only an hour and a half away, so you can quickly get to NYC should you need to. There's an expanding tech scene as well.
Philly is substantially cheaper than NYC (both in rent and general cost of living) but only an hour and a half away, so you can quickly get to NYC should you need to. There's an expanding tech scene as well.
I will also recommend Philadelphia. Between Uber and SEPTA, you won't need a car even if you live in the suburbs (source: Me), the city is well connected to NYC and DC via Amtrak, and the tech scene is solid here (N3RD Street, etc.).
There are also a ton of employers here in Philadelphia who are outside the traditional tech scene, but need tech skills and are possibly able to facilitate visas. The OP jumps from entry-level job to engineering degree which is possibly an assumption that they'll be working in a pure tech company. There are more opportunities if you cast the net wider.
You ideally want to avoid the "body shops", of which there are plenty, but I found visa and entry to the US was more important than how perfect the role was. If you can demonstrate the skills people need I've found people here don't care so much about where you are coming from.
You ideally want to avoid the "body shops", of which there are plenty, but I found visa and entry to the US was more important than how perfect the role was. If you can demonstrate the skills people need I've found people here don't care so much about where you are coming from.
Chicago and Boston aren't in the same class of city as New York. They're perfectly fine places but NYC is like London or Tokyo. The opportunities and sheer variety of experience available in NY is simply not available in those places. Cost is always a concern but that's the price of living in a world capital.
NYC, Chicago, and Tokyo are all more than double the size of London. All three are also much more affordable than central London.
London just has a very screwed up market.
London just has a very screwed up market.
Sure! Tokyo's actually pretty cheap (but the expense of a city has a lot more to do with its regulations regarding zoning and density). Cities just tend to have more expensive housing because they tend to have more bureaucratic barriers to building housing.
(Though LDN is WAY bigger than Chicago, about the same size as NY.)
(Though LDN is WAY bigger than Chicago, about the same size as NY.)
You are thinking in terms of city limits, not the size of the metro area.
"London" city limits were expanded to contain all of its suburbs (and even some un-settled farmland) in 1965, so the present-day city population of ~8 million is substantially the same as its total metro area population. The current London city limits aggregate what used to be 33 county governments, plus countless towns and villages.
NYC hasn't expanded its city limits since 1898! The 1898 city expansion aggregated three county-level governments, and formed new boroughs from parts of two more, to create the current five boroughs. The modern-day NYC metro area population is ~21 million people, ~27 million if you count the distant exurbs, but only 8.5 million live in the 1898 borders.
Chicago's last expansion, excluding the airport, was just a few square miles in 1930. As a result, its current metro area population is about ten million, even though only 2.7 million live in city limits. (Chicago's metropolitan statistical area is unusually small because it is cheek to jowl with other cities, tho)
"London" city limits were expanded to contain all of its suburbs (and even some un-settled farmland) in 1965, so the present-day city population of ~8 million is substantially the same as its total metro area population. The current London city limits aggregate what used to be 33 county governments, plus countless towns and villages.
NYC hasn't expanded its city limits since 1898! The 1898 city expansion aggregated three county-level governments, and formed new boroughs from parts of two more, to create the current five boroughs. The modern-day NYC metro area population is ~21 million people, ~27 million if you count the distant exurbs, but only 8.5 million live in the 1898 borders.
Chicago's last expansion, excluding the airport, was just a few square miles in 1930. As a result, its current metro area population is about ten million, even though only 2.7 million live in city limits. (Chicago's metropolitan statistical area is unusually small because it is cheek to jowl with other cities, tho)
Yes, New York is expensive. You know what though? All those other places ... they're not New York. You can live in Boston, but then you're living in Boston.
true --- NYC is more expensive than the cities mentioned, but all of the cities you mentioned require a car (yes I know Chicago has a train, but it's not super convenient, the other two cities absolutely require a car).
A car requires a car payment, an insurance payment, gas, maintenance (tires, oil, general problems). Not to mention while your sitting in traffic, you cant work or a read a book or study math, learn a new language etc. Long car-based commutes degrades your lifestyle. I think most people that have this perception NYC is outrageously expensive, but they do not take into account the expenses they endure when they live in other locations.
Groceries are not double the cost of other cities here either. If you go to whole foods, that might be true but there are a ton of options to find fresh, reasonably priced food.
A car requires a car payment, an insurance payment, gas, maintenance (tires, oil, general problems). Not to mention while your sitting in traffic, you cant work or a read a book or study math, learn a new language etc. Long car-based commutes degrades your lifestyle. I think most people that have this perception NYC is outrageously expensive, but they do not take into account the expenses they endure when they live in other locations.
Groceries are not double the cost of other cities here either. If you go to whole foods, that might be true but there are a ton of options to find fresh, reasonably priced food.
Of all the cities in the US, you probably least need a car in Boston. Most parts are super walkable and the public transit is decent too.
> yes I know Chicago has a train, but it's not super convenient
This is as far from truth as it gets. Having a car in Chicago is a liability and one can go anywhere from anywhere within city limits and even to suburbs with public transport.
I have seen the chicago public transport being put above NYC in many rankings
This is as far from truth as it gets. Having a car in Chicago is a liability and one can go anywhere from anywhere within city limits and even to suburbs with public transport.
I have seen the chicago public transport being put above NYC in many rankings
Boston does not require a car. Got rid of my car 10 years ago.
Only problem is that rent is more expensive near the subway. But we have buses and many many international workers and students. Very livable without a car.
Only problem is that rent is more expensive near the subway. But we have buses and many many international workers and students. Very livable without a car.
Boston doesn't require a car.
I have one...but I have one because my girlfriend and I have two dogs and my family lives out of state.
I have one...but I have one because my girlfriend and I have two dogs and my family lives out of state.
Not... Exactly true.
I agree that losing an extra 10 minutes to a sit-down train vs. a car is a big deal.
However, the New York subway is jam-packed and failing, so you have to stand 24 hours a day, dodge other riders...
You can't do work on the subway, so subway is basically equivalent to the car, except the car is much, much less likely to break down.
I agree that losing an extra 10 minutes to a sit-down train vs. a car is a big deal.
However, the New York subway is jam-packed and failing, so you have to stand 24 hours a day, dodge other riders...
You can't do work on the subway, so subway is basically equivalent to the car, except the car is much, much less likely to break down.
Chicago definitely does not "absolutely require" a car. I've lived here for a few years without one, and 80-90% of my friends in the city don't own one.
The trains don't go everywhere, but train + bus + bike share + Lyft make it very easy (and probably more convenient) to not own a car.
The trains don't go everywhere, but train + bus + bike share + Lyft make it very easy (and probably more convenient) to not own a car.
I live in Cincinnati, have no car and my commute is less than 20 minutes a day bicycling. In most cities you really don't need a car.
you are in the absolutely minority of people living in that city
I wouldn't say Boston is cheaper than New York. You can find studio apartments in Manhattan cheaper than ones in Cambridge.
The "normal" way to do this in the technology industry is via either an H1B or O1 visa. You do not qualify for either one.
An H1B typically requires a specialized degree. You don't have one -- your BFA will not qualify, especially in today's political environment.
An O1 requires you to be world-renowned in your field. Widely published, a long history of invitations to speak, etc. That's not you, either.
That leaves you with the considerably less desirable visa options.
L1 is an intra-company transfer. It is a temporary visa that is not dual-intent -- you cannot immigrate. But you can stay for several years. If you can find a European firm that wants to send you to the United States, this is often the easiest way to experience the U.S., at least temporarily.
F1 is a student visa. If you apply, and are accepted for a graduate program in the United States, an F1 will allow you to stay here for several years, and work under certain circumstances. If your graduate program is relevant to your field of endeavor, internships and externships under your F1 can be the link you need to an H1B.
The reason the F1 is not all that desirable is that it is very, very expensive to be a student in the United States. You will not be permitted to work a real job off campus to fund your tuition. You must have either very extensive funding from your university, or independent means of your own.
An H1B typically requires a specialized degree. You don't have one -- your BFA will not qualify, especially in today's political environment.
An O1 requires you to be world-renowned in your field. Widely published, a long history of invitations to speak, etc. That's not you, either.
That leaves you with the considerably less desirable visa options.
L1 is an intra-company transfer. It is a temporary visa that is not dual-intent -- you cannot immigrate. But you can stay for several years. If you can find a European firm that wants to send you to the United States, this is often the easiest way to experience the U.S., at least temporarily.
F1 is a student visa. If you apply, and are accepted for a graduate program in the United States, an F1 will allow you to stay here for several years, and work under certain circumstances. If your graduate program is relevant to your field of endeavor, internships and externships under your F1 can be the link you need to an H1B.
The reason the F1 is not all that desirable is that it is very, very expensive to be a student in the United States. You will not be permitted to work a real job off campus to fund your tuition. You must have either very extensive funding from your university, or independent means of your own.
Well as a recent college grad, in America here's what i have to say.
Good luck. For us Americans fresh out of university it's a total crap chute. There is practically nothing out there. Most jobs outside of cities require a car, and if you think you can afford a car and place to live (not to mention food and whatnot) then you will be sorely mistaken. Increasingly i personally see people with higher end degrees from good institutions taking near minimum wage jobs in the service or other industries. A college degree in America means next to nothing.
With a diploma in BFA (bachelor fine arts correct?) your highest hope would be a job as a barista or a waiter. unless you are in that .01% of everyone in the arts field and able to somehow get a job out of that.
Your next best bet is work that is ancillary but requires a degree. you can find a paper pushing job somewhere but it is unlikely at entry level that they will sponsor you.
My advice if you are serious about coming to the usa is to start on a student visa and come here for schooling. Good luck paying for that.
my other advice is why does it have to be NYC. there are other cheaper cities that are just as nice if not nicer. NYC is quickly becoming far too overpriced even for the richest, and with its sprawl you will spend a lot of your time just navigating subways.
Philadelphia is a very affordable and fun city. There is also Boston, Miami, DC and many others not on the east coast.
I really hope you do make it here and do get a job. But realistically these are the challenges you face. I have known many people who came here on student visas, graduated got jobs and are now leaving because of king carrots new immigration issues. but that's just my two cents.
Good luck. For us Americans fresh out of university it's a total crap chute. There is practically nothing out there. Most jobs outside of cities require a car, and if you think you can afford a car and place to live (not to mention food and whatnot) then you will be sorely mistaken. Increasingly i personally see people with higher end degrees from good institutions taking near minimum wage jobs in the service or other industries. A college degree in America means next to nothing.
With a diploma in BFA (bachelor fine arts correct?) your highest hope would be a job as a barista or a waiter. unless you are in that .01% of everyone in the arts field and able to somehow get a job out of that.
Your next best bet is work that is ancillary but requires a degree. you can find a paper pushing job somewhere but it is unlikely at entry level that they will sponsor you.
My advice if you are serious about coming to the usa is to start on a student visa and come here for schooling. Good luck paying for that.
my other advice is why does it have to be NYC. there are other cheaper cities that are just as nice if not nicer. NYC is quickly becoming far too overpriced even for the richest, and with its sprawl you will spend a lot of your time just navigating subways.
Philadelphia is a very affordable and fun city. There is also Boston, Miami, DC and many others not on the east coast.
I really hope you do make it here and do get a job. But realistically these are the challenges you face. I have known many people who came here on student visas, graduated got jobs and are now leaving because of king carrots new immigration issues. but that's just my two cents.
>I know that housing is very expensive
It is, but don't have to live in the city to work in the city. It's extremely common to live in cheaper areas near NYC and take public transportation for a 1-1.5 hour commute.
It is, but don't have to live in the city to work in the city. It's extremely common to live in cheaper areas near NYC and take public transportation for a 1-1.5 hour commute.
In this sense, I find NYC to be more affordable than the bay area. The better public transit means it's a lot more viable to live in neighborhoods with cheaper housing and commute to work than it is in SF.
Perhaps counter-intuitively, the suburbs of NYC are much more expensive than the outer boroughs.
You can rent an apartment in Queens or the Bronx for _half_ as much as Westchester or Long Island, due to horrifying zoning restrictions on multifamily housing.
You can rent an apartment in Queens or the Bronx for _half_ as much as Westchester or Long Island, due to horrifying zoning restrictions on multifamily housing.
That’s a three hour commute round trip, and much of it will be standing in a sweaty subway carriage with no room to even move your arms.
How long you spend in the subway is entirely based on where you live in relation to Manhattan and where your office in Manhattan is. If you live in Brooklyn or Queens, you don't have many options outside of the subway. If you live farther out in Long Island, upstate NY, CT, or NJ you would take the train which often (but not always, it depends on which train you take) has considerably more elbow room. And if you take a train from those places, you can transfer to a subway and get to almost anywhere in Manhattan within 30 min.
Yes this is a long commute, but while $2k will barely cover rent of a tiny studio with a roommate in Manhattan, $2k elsewhere can cover the rent + utilities for a 3 bedroom apartment but with a 90 min commute each direction.
I think its fair to say that COL is inversely related to your distance to Manhattan
Yes this is a long commute, but while $2k will barely cover rent of a tiny studio with a roommate in Manhattan, $2k elsewhere can cover the rent + utilities for a 3 bedroom apartment but with a 90 min commute each direction.
I think its fair to say that COL is inversely related to your distance to Manhattan
Your best bet would be to apply for a permanent immigration visa. It should be very easy if you're from the EU. It's only difficult for people from countries that already have a high amount of emigration such as India, China, or Mexico since there's a per country quota.
It is NOT easy to obtain a temporary work visa like it is in many other countries. The United States greatly prefers permanent immigration.
Aim for the highest EB visa you qualify for.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-worker...
It is NOT easy to obtain a temporary work visa like it is in many other countries. The United States greatly prefers permanent immigration.
Aim for the highest EB visa you qualify for.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-worker...
This advice is grossly incorrect. EB (Employment based) immigrant visas are employer-sponsored apart from Eb-1A (people of extraordinary ability). And they take years to get (EB-1A is an exception that takes less than a year typically).
I never made the claim that they are not employer sponsored.
Do you fellows have any smart advices for moving to NYC outside of US? What Visa is the best when I don't have engineering degree? What to think about before applying for jobs etc.?
Are there any immigrants who can share their experience?
About me: I'm EU citizen, I have BFA diploma in graphic arts, I'm considering moving to NYC - I know that housing is very expensive and visas are hard to get. I have 2 years of professional experience front-end development.