Ask YC: Software developers at Apple?
Apple gets so much great attention for its hardware, design, vision, taste, etc, but I was wondering what it's like there for software developers. They write OSX, embedded (iPod, etc), applications, utilities, etc that get lots of acclaim, but you never really hear about them. Does anyone know Apple hackers, what it's like, if it's a sought-after job (I'm sick of hearing about how everyone wants to work at Google and Facebook) or just an option, etc.
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It's a high stress, demanding job. Great work is usually rewarded, but Apple does have its politics. Talented engineers I know are well rewarded and recognized internally, but other engineers have been shafted due to politics or the bozo-ness of their particular department or team.
simonseto mysteriously disappears
Wanna hear more! :)
That gossip is best left unsaid, but my advice if you are looking to work at Apple - choose the team you join carefully. Apple's most secretive teams are also the most talented and brilliant folks I've ever met. But they work hard to be friends of Steve.
This is what Apple looks for in software engineers: Smart, gets things done. (I think Joel Splotskey said it first.)
99% of the software written at Apple is in C or some variant thereof. If your C code isn't up to snuff (EDIT: fixed lousy contraction. English skills aren't as important!), you might be able to get a job working in the build farms, but even those people are good coders doing shit work until they can move up.
All that being said, we have a really hard time finding people that can code their way out of a paper bag in C - so much so that we'll even take people without direct Mac OS X experience if they're talented coders. (I'd still prefer to see true macheads, though.)
99% of the software written at Apple is in C or some variant thereof. If your C code isn't up to snuff (EDIT: fixed lousy contraction. English skills aren't as important!), you might be able to get a job working in the build farms, but even those people are good coders doing shit work until they can move up.
All that being said, we have a really hard time finding people that can code their way out of a paper bag in C - so much so that we'll even take people without direct Mac OS X experience if they're talented coders. (I'd still prefer to see true macheads, though.)
How much Objective-C software is written at Apple?
It doesn't matter. ObjC is just C with []s.
That's a statement that's not as true as it used to be. Objective-C 2.0 introduced garbage collection, There are many novice programmers that are now jumping to ObjC because of the iPhone SDK hoopla.
Garbage collection is also available to code that executes at the pure C layer as well. I'd stand by my previous statement, and add that most of what ObjC brings to the table is some framework design patterns that you do have to learn, but that can be learned in far less than a week.
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http://www.folklore.org/ has stories about Apple from their early days, I couldn't stop reading it, and you learn a lot about the hackers from back then.
Every time I feel burned, I read a bit of folklore.org about how the masters of yore did their stuff, and get to work again! Oh and also "The Djinn's Wife" by Ian McDonald:
http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0704/thedjinnswife.shtml
The future is here and screams in our face. Do you dare heed its call?
The future is here and screams in our face. Do you dare heed its call?
Apple is a large company, so there's a large range of software development jobs, some more "glamorous" than others.
One interesting thing to note is that the average age of Apple devs is higher than those at say Google or Facebook. Of course that's probably mostly a product of Apple being a much older company. Certainly that must affect the company culture.
One interesting thing to note is that the average age of Apple devs is higher than those at say Google or Facebook. Of course that's probably mostly a product of Apple being a much older company. Certainly that must affect the company culture.
I would have thought it was the systems/hardware focus. The kids nowadays just assume the hardware is magic and try to ignore it as much as possible while writing their billion dollar websites.
They work 12 hour days. Lots of clashing personalities, particularly with lifers.
.. and one needs the aggravation because?
with all the easy pickings (that pay well) out there.
i say take advantage that 80% of people don't know anything, and take it easy. 8 hr works days, and i'm at the lake.
with all the easy pickings (that pay well) out there.
i say take advantage that 80% of people don't know anything, and take it easy. 8 hr works days, and i'm at the lake.
People work at Apple to change the world. Seriously.
Steve Jobs is a genius at imbuing the concept of revolution into computing.
Steve Jobs is a genius at imbuing the concept of revolution into computing.
"People work at Apple to change the world. Seriously." -- or just making Steve Jobs even richer. Unless you get paid really really well, I don't see any real upside for hackers to work at Apple. You are just a cog in their machine (or cult, as fake seteve jobs said).
You can change the world, and try to get fair amount of money out of it by doing something on your own, or working in smaller companies.
You can change the world, and try to get fair amount of money out of it by doing something on your own, or working in smaller companies.
Your personality clash makes you sound like you should work here.
Apple is repackaging standard Intel hardware and a modified FreeBSD. The result is sold as a boutique product. I fail to see either the genius or the revolution.
i guess ... but that sounds silly to me. i guess i shouldn't lurk here anymore.
I think the point is that Steve Jobs does a good job of making Apple seem like Santa's Workshop or something, which leads to a lot of people who drink the Kool-Aid wanting to come on board.
You're certainly allowed to think that Apple is simply a company that stuffs commodity hardware into particularly shiny boxes. Even if that's what you think, it's still an interesting case study in how to attract talent without paying a premium.
You're certainly allowed to think that Apple is simply a company that stuffs commodity hardware into particularly shiny boxes. Even if that's what you think, it's still an interesting case study in how to attract talent without paying a premium.
Feel free to continue lurking. I can enjoy Steve Jobs' plenty as a customer without having to work for him.
At least they get weekends off, unlike the startup life. :P