Ask HN: Startup coworker underperforming
64 comments
Just based on what you've written here, it sounds like this person is not slowing down the team, but rather isn't "pulling his weight" on the development front. Consider that:
1) He has successfully brought on quality dev talent (you) and could likely do this more as the company grows. He's willing to hire people better than himself, which is more rare than you might think.
2) Angel & seed investors, who typically invest heavily based on the team, have already signaled their opinion by investing.
3) He is likely taking on a meaningful amount of non-development busywork that comes with any small business and that is incredibly thankless.
If anything, I suspect your raising these concerns to the CEO is telling them more about your own level of workplace maturity than it is about the other person's development skills. Startups are hard enough without coworkers sniping and complaining about who's doing the most. If you're worried about who gets credit, it's going to be very difficult to go from promising concept to a sustainable high growth company.
1) He has successfully brought on quality dev talent (you) and could likely do this more as the company grows. He's willing to hire people better than himself, which is more rare than you might think.
2) Angel & seed investors, who typically invest heavily based on the team, have already signaled their opinion by investing.
3) He is likely taking on a meaningful amount of non-development busywork that comes with any small business and that is incredibly thankless.
If anything, I suspect your raising these concerns to the CEO is telling them more about your own level of workplace maturity than it is about the other person's development skills. Startups are hard enough without coworkers sniping and complaining about who's doing the most. If you're worried about who gets credit, it's going to be very difficult to go from promising concept to a sustainable high growth company.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have family obligations as well, and they take priority for me over my job, however, I still make sure to get the job done. That being said, I could see how my excuses when I fail could be seen from the outside.
I was the manager of our team and had to deal with all kinds of crap from management, QA, sales, etc, most of which I couldn't do much about (sales sets dev priorities, and they tend to ignore bugs until it starts blocking a sale, and we get in trouble for doing work outside of our process). I got talked to about my productivity/commitment (I would leave "early" some days, but still put in 50+ hours/week, mostly coming in before everyone else).
I left and became a consultant for our company and my responsibilities were handed to other people. Productivity tanked, and several people quit within a month (not directly because of my leaving, but there were all related). I got several comments from my co-workers that they realize how much I had to do and were surprised at how much I got done despite dealing with it all. I now get more done than anyone on the team since I don't have to deal with office crap anymore, which is great for me as a consultant.
My point with all of this is to echo what you said. OP doesn't know the whole story, and getting this person fired could be way worse than keeping them despite apparent unproductiveness. My only advice would be: don't take on more than you think is fair, and continue to outperform expectations.
It may help to talk to the coworker and ask if assignments need to be reassigned. Something like: "I've noticed that you've had trouble delivering these types of tasks on time, would it be better if I took those and you took these types of tasks instead?" For example, documentation, getting feedback from sales, etc are all time consuming activities that distract from development. We had a weaker dev, so we moved him to internal tools, coordinating with other teams, and assisting with the more technical support calls, and it has worked out really well for everyone (he enjoys it, and we all hated doing those tasks). Handling it this was shows the founder that you're willing to work in the interests of the company instead of just your own (the founder obviously has reasons for keeping the "underperformer" on payroll).
I was the manager of our team and had to deal with all kinds of crap from management, QA, sales, etc, most of which I couldn't do much about (sales sets dev priorities, and they tend to ignore bugs until it starts blocking a sale, and we get in trouble for doing work outside of our process). I got talked to about my productivity/commitment (I would leave "early" some days, but still put in 50+ hours/week, mostly coming in before everyone else).
I left and became a consultant for our company and my responsibilities were handed to other people. Productivity tanked, and several people quit within a month (not directly because of my leaving, but there were all related). I got several comments from my co-workers that they realize how much I had to do and were surprised at how much I got done despite dealing with it all. I now get more done than anyone on the team since I don't have to deal with office crap anymore, which is great for me as a consultant.
My point with all of this is to echo what you said. OP doesn't know the whole story, and getting this person fired could be way worse than keeping them despite apparent unproductiveness. My only advice would be: don't take on more than you think is fair, and continue to outperform expectations.
It may help to talk to the coworker and ask if assignments need to be reassigned. Something like: "I've noticed that you've had trouble delivering these types of tasks on time, would it be better if I took those and you took these types of tasks instead?" For example, documentation, getting feedback from sales, etc are all time consuming activities that distract from development. We had a weaker dev, so we moved him to internal tools, coordinating with other teams, and assisting with the more technical support calls, and it has worked out really well for everyone (he enjoys it, and we all hated doing those tasks). Handling it this was shows the founder that you're willing to work in the interests of the company instead of just your own (the founder obviously has reasons for keeping the "underperformer" on payroll).
Grow up. Worry about yourself. Do your job. You aren’t the founder.
Stop trying to control other people and start learning how to control yourself.
Stop trying to control other people and start learning how to control yourself.
Exactly, focus on what you can control. Start limiting your work per week to 40 hours and don't put pressure on yourself to do more because of external factors. Your self worth is not defined by how many hours you put in, or how successful or not the product you're working on turns out.
Avoid the burnout and keep the negative thoughts away
Avoid the burnout and keep the negative thoughts away
I agree completely
In fact I could be that other engineer (I'm not, but I'm in a very similar sounding situation)
I was the most senior engineer and first to join a new startup with a bunch of colleagues from an old work place. I put in ridiculously long hours for the first year and a bit to get the product started, and got completely burnt out and my family life suffered
After we brought on a few more engineers I reduced my hours to a more normal 40 hours a week, and made use of the flexible start-up hours to pick up my kids from school some days and come in late on others (A great way to manage the stress of being in a busy startup)
Now I also spend a lot less time writing code and more time managing product requirements, an overseas team, on system architecture, and all those dev-ops tasks (big time-sink) that no-one else wants to do
I don't completely know the original-poster's situation, but quite often the senior person on the team is often shielding the other developers from all the daily crap that is going on in a company so that they can be as productive as possible, and you might not be completely aware about everything that is going on
In fact I could be that other engineer (I'm not, but I'm in a very similar sounding situation)
I was the most senior engineer and first to join a new startup with a bunch of colleagues from an old work place. I put in ridiculously long hours for the first year and a bit to get the product started, and got completely burnt out and my family life suffered
After we brought on a few more engineers I reduced my hours to a more normal 40 hours a week, and made use of the flexible start-up hours to pick up my kids from school some days and come in late on others (A great way to manage the stress of being in a busy startup)
Now I also spend a lot less time writing code and more time managing product requirements, an overseas team, on system architecture, and all those dev-ops tasks (big time-sink) that no-one else wants to do
I don't completely know the original-poster's situation, but quite often the senior person on the team is often shielding the other developers from all the daily crap that is going on in a company so that they can be as productive as possible, and you might not be completely aware about everything that is going on
Your situation doesn't sound like my coworker. I hate the idea of counting hours, but if I had to, the coworker does about 20 per week. He abuses our very lax schedule (we don't have an office) and vacation policy to spend as much time as he can doing other things. I know what he works on, and what he's dealing with since our team is very small. The facts are that he works as little as possible, and only has excuses to show when we try to confront him about what should have been done.
That sounds like he's burnt out or just doesn't enjoy his work. Have you talked to him about what type of work he prefers and hates to see if perhaps you could trade tasks? I know he's your schedule, but that doesn't mean dialog can't flow both ways. You don't even have to mention the productivity issue directly, just keep it somewhat casual.
If you manage to resolve it, that'll look really good to the founder and could help the company succeed. If you fail, you still look good because you're trying to make changes to help the company.
We had an employee that was underperforming and would work the bare minimum. It turned out that he felt overwhelmed, so work was very stressful for him and he would duck out as a defense mechanism. We changed his role somewhat (internal tools dev instead of product, product manager working with partners, main handler of support issues that got past tier 1) and he was a lot happier and ended up working more hours and meeting goals.
Working at a startup/small company can be very difficult, so finding the right fit in a team can be the difference between burnout and success. If he likes what he's working on, he'll make time to get it done.
If you manage to resolve it, that'll look really good to the founder and could help the company succeed. If you fail, you still look good because you're trying to make changes to help the company.
We had an employee that was underperforming and would work the bare minimum. It turned out that he felt overwhelmed, so work was very stressful for him and he would duck out as a defense mechanism. We changed his role somewhat (internal tools dev instead of product, product manager working with partners, main handler of support issues that got past tier 1) and he was a lot happier and ended up working more hours and meeting goals.
Working at a startup/small company can be very difficult, so finding the right fit in a team can be the difference between burnout and success. If he likes what he's working on, he'll make time to get it done.
This. OP’s colleague has a family and a life outside work, while OP is all in as an employee? It is not to OP to resent anyone at work, just resign if you cannot cope (and thank again your colleague for the initial lead before closing the door).
Best advice for OP
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We're a small team and we're all responsible for the same end goal. If one of us isn't pulling the weight, it's the responsibility of the others to rectify that. I don't believe the solution is to ignore the situation and "worry about myself." Especially when the resources we're spending on this employee can be better spent on someone more productive.
> and signing off very early to babysit his young children.
Are you serious with this? Parenting is not "babysitting". Would you call it babysitting if he wasn't a male parent? It's 2019. Both men and women work and share parenting responsibilities.
It sounds like you don't have these outside responsibilities or have delegated them out. However your general tone makes me skeptical about your maturity and objectivity. Your colleague may be in a wrong-fit job, or you may be irrationally funneling all your energy into comparing yourself to him and resenting him. Or somewhere in between. Or maybe there is another reason the founder has not addressed the issue (yet?) that may be none of your business (like having to document poor performance, or giving the guy a chance to find another job).
As others have said, it's just a job. Do your part and don't worry about him. And maybe find some hobbies to give you a reason to leave work and focus on other things. Or if you're that miserable, you are also free to find another job. No need to create drama like "me or him" ultimatums, just find one and give notice like an adult.
Are you serious with this? Parenting is not "babysitting". Would you call it babysitting if he wasn't a male parent? It's 2019. Both men and women work and share parenting responsibilities.
It sounds like you don't have these outside responsibilities or have delegated them out. However your general tone makes me skeptical about your maturity and objectivity. Your colleague may be in a wrong-fit job, or you may be irrationally funneling all your energy into comparing yourself to him and resenting him. Or somewhere in between. Or maybe there is another reason the founder has not addressed the issue (yet?) that may be none of your business (like having to document poor performance, or giving the guy a chance to find another job).
As others have said, it's just a job. Do your part and don't worry about him. And maybe find some hobbies to give you a reason to leave work and focus on other things. Or if you're that miserable, you are also free to find another job. No need to create drama like "me or him" ultimatums, just find one and give notice like an adult.
I understand it's difficult to accept that someone more senior than you (and possibly paid better) produces less value - it just doesn't sound fair. Maybe there's more than meets the eye, or maybe you're right and there isn't. But in the end, it does not matter. Focus on your work, not his (lack of) work. Proceed as if he didn't exist. Do your job the best you can, and make sure that the founder understands where the value is coming from. If they do, problem solved. If they don't, then either you're right and they don't deserve you, or you're wrong and you don't deserve them.
Consider what "I recommended this guy to be hired, and he recommended me to be fired" will do to your reputation further down the line.
You say you're willing to walk away. Do it.
You say you're willing to walk away. Do it.
>You say you're willing to walk away. Do it.
Given your first line, this sounds like a bad faith suggestion. Why should I walk away from something promising vs helping our team become more productive?
And given the context of the person in question, who was fired from the last startup for lack of productivity, I don't think this will do much to my reputation. My reputation is pretty good right now. Yes, I feel a little dirty about how this situation is going down, but it's not out of malice. It's out of wanting to work with excellent people and build an excellent product.
Given your first line, this sounds like a bad faith suggestion. Why should I walk away from something promising vs helping our team become more productive?
And given the context of the person in question, who was fired from the last startup for lack of productivity, I don't think this will do much to my reputation. My reputation is pretty good right now. Yes, I feel a little dirty about how this situation is going down, but it's not out of malice. It's out of wanting to work with excellent people and build an excellent product.
The best advice here is the one by ChuckMcM. Please read it carefully.
Your comments are showing a very toxic approach to this whole situation.
I was unfortunate to have hired toxic people in the past, who believed they were better than everyone else, who don’t give a damn about other people, and believe they know better than anyone else. Very productive individuals, just like yourself. I kept them in the team for their productivity, but I regret deeply not having fired them on the first red flags. When they finally left, it felt like a cancer was removed from me, personally, and from the company. The productivity of the entire team increased as others now felt they could step up.
Don’t be that guy. You are heading that direction and it wont end well.
The company is not yours, so I believe you should leave for the health of everyone involved, including yourself.
Don’t worry about the company, they don’t need you to survive.
Your comments are showing a very toxic approach to this whole situation.
I was unfortunate to have hired toxic people in the past, who believed they were better than everyone else, who don’t give a damn about other people, and believe they know better than anyone else. Very productive individuals, just like yourself. I kept them in the team for their productivity, but I regret deeply not having fired them on the first red flags. When they finally left, it felt like a cancer was removed from me, personally, and from the company. The productivity of the entire team increased as others now felt they could step up.
Don’t be that guy. You are heading that direction and it wont end well.
The company is not yours, so I believe you should leave for the health of everyone involved, including yourself.
Don’t worry about the company, they don’t need you to survive.
We just don't know. The OP might be arrogant as you say, or overly conscientious There really are dead weights, sometimes reactively (esp if on the spectrum) but many just 'cause they can. There are minus-10x employees.
Since we can't psychically divine which, the principle of charity applies, I think you have to take OP at his word until you can point out a direct contradiction, say.
Since we can't psychically divine which, the principle of charity applies, I think you have to take OP at his word until you can point out a direct contradiction, say.
>Given your first line, this sounds like a bad faith suggestion. Why should I walk away from something promising vs helping our team become more productive?
You presented two options: stay and try to fire the other guy, or leave. I presented a reason why you shouldn't stay, and suggested you leave. Not sure what about that appears to you as bad faith.
>And given the context of the person in question, who was fired from the last startup for lack of productivity, I don't think this will do much to my reputation.
But you're not going to control the narrative; your fired coworker will - unless you're willing to go door to door and publicize the fact that you got that person fired, which is a terrible idea.
>It's out of wanting to work with excellent people and build an excellent product.
You generally don't get to do that by punishing people who recommend you for jobs that you find fulfilling.
I've always found that the most talented people in a room tend to gravitate towards one another; so too do the most toxic. If you keep doing toxic things, don't be surprised when you find yourself surrounded with people just like yourself.
You presented two options: stay and try to fire the other guy, or leave. I presented a reason why you shouldn't stay, and suggested you leave. Not sure what about that appears to you as bad faith.
>And given the context of the person in question, who was fired from the last startup for lack of productivity, I don't think this will do much to my reputation.
But you're not going to control the narrative; your fired coworker will - unless you're willing to go door to door and publicize the fact that you got that person fired, which is a terrible idea.
>It's out of wanting to work with excellent people and build an excellent product.
You generally don't get to do that by punishing people who recommend you for jobs that you find fulfilling.
I've always found that the most talented people in a room tend to gravitate towards one another; so too do the most toxic. If you keep doing toxic things, don't be surprised when you find yourself surrounded with people just like yourself.
> he is constantly clocking in late and signing off very early to babysit his young children
> His days are frequently interrupted by needing to pick up his kids or drop them off, or whatever else he needs to do
>I, on the other hand, work my ass off. I pull long hours all week
Do you have kids? A family? Something you are responsible for besides work? I'd bet a fairly large sum of money you don't because if you do and still think these thoughts you are an asshole.
It sounds like your co-worker is trying to hold down being a parent with little to no support structure. I read it as someone struggling to keep it all together on little to no sleep and a metric shit ton of stress. How about instead of thinking about how that affects you, and getting him fired (which would be a total disaster to a parent btw) maybe you try to figure out how you can help him? A little empathy goes a long way and it sounds like you need to spend a little time learning about that.
> His days are frequently interrupted by needing to pick up his kids or drop them off, or whatever else he needs to do
>I, on the other hand, work my ass off. I pull long hours all week
Do you have kids? A family? Something you are responsible for besides work? I'd bet a fairly large sum of money you don't because if you do and still think these thoughts you are an asshole.
It sounds like your co-worker is trying to hold down being a parent with little to no support structure. I read it as someone struggling to keep it all together on little to no sleep and a metric shit ton of stress. How about instead of thinking about how that affects you, and getting him fired (which would be a total disaster to a parent btw) maybe you try to figure out how you can help him? A little empathy goes a long way and it sounds like you need to spend a little time learning about that.
He shouldn't be in the startup game if his circumstances means he can't perform his duties at the startup to make it successful. There are plenty of other software jobs more geared towards flexible schedules and a slower pace.
Disagree. The "startup game" is a job like any other. It's a contract between you and the business where you agree to provide a chunk of your time in exchange for monetary compensation and some extras. Its a business contract that will be terminated at the drop of a hat if some numbers on a spreadsheet don't add up right. That's not malice, or evil. That's just business. It's also why you shouldn't give your life away to it because you will regret it I assure you.
I'm an engineer and the technical co-founder of a small startup which helps companies, managers, and employees have more effective conversations with one another around performance and professional development.
This sounds like a really complicated issue, and I don't think it's fair to respond briefly over HN. I'd be happy to exchange some thoughts with you in private over email (my email is in my profile). Feel free to reach out anytime.
And, for anyone else reading through this having similar challenges, feel free to reach out as well. Happy to talk you through the situation however I can.
Best of luck!
This sounds like a really complicated issue, and I don't think it's fair to respond briefly over HN. I'd be happy to exchange some thoughts with you in private over email (my email is in my profile). Feel free to reach out anytime.
And, for anyone else reading through this having similar challenges, feel free to reach out as well. Happy to talk you through the situation however I can.
Best of luck!
Your story makes it sound like you are the only competent person this start up. Best thing you could do is realize this is just a story, not the truth. If you can't do that, then resign so you don't have to work around other incompetents. After that pattern ("everyone else is so stupid") shows up enough times in your life, try looking at it again and recognize your own narcissism. The good news is that doing that awareness work will take you much farther then your technical skills ever will. You aren't alone in your feelings so kudos to you for letting them out and talking about it. Posting here means you are questioning what you are thinking. Good for you.
The founder is also extremely competent at software development, but I am leaving him off of the development team for the sake of this story. I've worked with plenty of competent people, this employee is just not one of them. I don't mean it to sound like I'm the only competent person on the team, but the team is merely 2 people, so I am literally the only competent person on the team.
Ok. Good luck!
I would just quit, life is too short, and there are endless startups that could use someone as driven and productive as you say you are.
If you still want to stay, negotiate far more equity, like 4x what you have. If you have a 1 or 2% I’m sure they could go up to 5% once they realize you are serious about leaving. Then you can feel better about carrying dead weight.
If you still want to stay, negotiate far more equity, like 4x what you have. If you have a 1 or 2% I’m sure they could go up to 5% once they realize you are serious about leaving. Then you can feel better about carrying dead weight.
Seconded. The founder has said he can't lose any more people...
Use that to your advantage and negotiate a higher stake in the company (unless you think the company is doomed with this other guy, then maybe negotiate a higher salary and just cash the checks until the ship sinks).
Either way, if the founder can't possibly lose any more developers, then have him make it worth your while to stay.
Use that to your advantage and negotiate a higher stake in the company (unless you think the company is doomed with this other guy, then maybe negotiate a higher salary and just cash the checks until the ship sinks).
Either way, if the founder can't possibly lose any more developers, then have him make it worth your while to stay.
I would walk away too. I'm in a similar situation, however not quite as bad, as there's 1 out of 10 engineers that is seriously underperforming, and a few others that are just average. The biggest problem though is that management won't do anything about it, even though they keep saying they are/will. It's been over a year now, and I've lost faith in mgmt and their ability to make the right decisions for the business in general. Not sure extra compensation will help you, I know it wouldn't make things better for me.
Totally agree about trying to get a better deal if you're going to stay. I would be pissed if I found out the other engineer had more equity than me and I was basically doing all the work. If you get more equity, then you can feel you're getting fairly compensated for your part in building the startup and who care what the other engineer does or what happens.
Why'd you follow him into this situation? Sounds like you knew you didn't like working with him ahead of time, from the previous job.
So something made you willing to join this company despite that. Potential financial rewards? An interesting challenge? Regardless, is it still there? Are you going to be kicking yourself later for missing out on that if you quit out of frustration if the founder doesn't do what you want? Is it worth giving up whatever those appealing things were just because you're offended by this guy putting in fewer hours and less code? What if you had the same title, so at least didn't look like a less-valued employee to others?
So something made you willing to join this company despite that. Potential financial rewards? An interesting challenge? Regardless, is it still there? Are you going to be kicking yourself later for missing out on that if you quit out of frustration if the founder doesn't do what you want? Is it worth giving up whatever those appealing things were just because you're offended by this guy putting in fewer hours and less code? What if you had the same title, so at least didn't look like a less-valued employee to others?
A couple of thoughts:
>I could sit down with him as a peer, but he is known for snapping at people (even the founder) who question his productivity. And I don't think the discussion would have any positive outcome anyways. His issues are systemic.
Do you know this for a fact? If no one has 'sat him down' perhaps he thinks no one is noticing and that he's not causing problems. Perhaps both you and the founder could sit down with him.
>But I don't want to be that guy that is like "it's either me or him."
Why not? It sounds like the founder is on your side and ultimately he's the one who needs to make the decision. Perhaps you can come up with some ideas for how he can implement letting the guy go while minimizing any perception that there's trouble.
>I could sit down with him as a peer, but he is known for snapping at people (even the founder) who question his productivity. And I don't think the discussion would have any positive outcome anyways. His issues are systemic.
Do you know this for a fact? If no one has 'sat him down' perhaps he thinks no one is noticing and that he's not causing problems. Perhaps both you and the founder could sit down with him.
>But I don't want to be that guy that is like "it's either me or him."
Why not? It sounds like the founder is on your side and ultimately he's the one who needs to make the decision. Perhaps you can come up with some ideas for how he can implement letting the guy go while minimizing any perception that there's trouble.
So, he got you that job - and now you want to make him lose his? That's not going to look good on you, to the rest of the company. It's up to the founder to make the decision based on what he knows, not on an ultimatum from you.
We've all probably worked with people like that. The best thing you can do is perform your own responsibilities, and factor in his abilities when planning & estimating.
If anyone should leave, it should be you - as you have the problem (I mean - you're not the cause of the problem, you just have it)
We've all probably worked with people like that. The best thing you can do is perform your own responsibilities, and factor in his abilities when planning & estimating.
If anyone should leave, it should be you - as you have the problem (I mean - you're not the cause of the problem, you just have it)
Even though the company is still a startup, have them do a quarterly company review where each one is reviewed for their productivity/contributions. If what you’re saying is true, that persons irresponsibility will show. This is the time to put them on a performance plan (improve in X weeks/months) and if not, they will be fired.
This does a couple things, it puts everyone in check, including yourself, and does an honest review of everyone.
This does a couple things, it puts everyone in check, including yourself, and does an honest review of everyone.
There is nothing we can tell you since you and the founder already know what needs to be done. The two of you just need to show some backbone and act.
I think a lot of people similar to the coworker condition themselves to be snappy when their underperformance is exposed because so many don’t like confrontation, don’t want things to escalate, and would rather seethe privately like the parent than to push through the emotional storm.
You need a strong stomach to see how the sausage gets made, and confronting people who are debilitating real-world results is part and parcel of working in the kitchen. It gets easier, though.
You need a strong stomach to see how the sausage gets made, and confronting people who are debilitating real-world results is part and parcel of working in the kitchen. It gets easier, though.
Yes this is true. When I first started out as the founder of my business I tried everything I could to avoid firing underperforming people, but I eventually learnt that all this does is make the problem worse.
It never gets easy to fire people, but when you know that it makes it better for everyone (including the person fired) you learn to get on with it when needed - it is one of those unfun jobs that you just have to do.
It never gets easy to fire people, but when you know that it makes it better for everyone (including the person fired) you learn to get on with it when needed - it is one of those unfun jobs that you just have to do.
Make sure you document the long hours and have proof of your productivity. I am one of the those people who implicitly trusts everyone and loathes documentation, and I learned my lessons the hard way. This proof will be useful to you if the situation gets worse and you're asked to back your claims up that you're working much more than him.
I would try to find a different role for your colleague where he performs better (e.g. tech support, creating mockups, gathering user feedback). The CEO doesn't need to directly assign him to this new role but rather give him more and more tasks and responsibilities in this area.
Also you should try to negotiate more equity with the CEO.
Also you should try to negotiate more equity with the CEO.
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I agree with the sentiment that the best course of action would be to focus on your own work and not get caught up in the coworker's performance.
If you take the founder at face value, he's basically saying that keeping the coworker maximizes the chances of raising money. So another way to look at it is, would you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars today to maximize your chances of raising millions tomorrow?
And I definitely do think there are situations where that could be the case. The founder might have sold the investors on your coworker being a valuable part of the core team during a tumultuous period where the company let go of two engineers and had to rewrite the code.
While you may believe that getting rid of your coworker would maximize the chances of success, the reality might be completely opposite, regardless of how much weight the coworker is or is not pulling.
If you take the founder at face value, he's basically saying that keeping the coworker maximizes the chances of raising money. So another way to look at it is, would you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars today to maximize your chances of raising millions tomorrow?
And I definitely do think there are situations where that could be the case. The founder might have sold the investors on your coworker being a valuable part of the core team during a tumultuous period where the company let go of two engineers and had to rewrite the code.
While you may believe that getting rid of your coworker would maximize the chances of success, the reality might be completely opposite, regardless of how much weight the coworker is or is not pulling.
Come forward with solutions, not problems.
You are in a unique position since you have history and are in the same (very small) boat now.
Makes clear justification for dismissal in the future and you may be able to get clear of some of the "toxic junk" you're harboring.
You are in a unique position since you have history and are in the same (very small) boat now.
Makes clear justification for dismissal in the future and you may be able to get clear of some of the "toxic junk" you're harboring.
Ask yourself what you want your boss to do - if he isn’t coding then what can he do to make your life easier and the overall results for the business better?
The OP already has and the founder knows what needs to be done, but the founder is being a coward.
It sounds like you need to get a backup plan as in scouting out other possible jobs.
But once you have done that maybe you don't want to suggest that the other guy is fired outright. Because he is a founder and has a relationship with the other founder that probably isn't happening. Think of the kids.
It sounds like the fair thing would be for you to get his title and pay and that guy to get a demotion.
It seems unlikely that will happen but if you have a backup job then you can suggest it. And if it doesn't happen then you can go to that other job.
But once you have done that maybe you don't want to suggest that the other guy is fired outright. Because he is a founder and has a relationship with the other founder that probably isn't happening. Think of the kids.
It sounds like the fair thing would be for you to get his title and pay and that guy to get a demotion.
It seems unlikely that will happen but if you have a backup job then you can suggest it. And if it doesn't happen then you can go to that other job.
Does the other person affect your productivity or only your feelings? It seems your efforts are mainly to cover for this person and not identifying areas where he can add reliable value. Finally, many/most investors would look favorably upon the dismissal of an underperformer. Sounds like your company not the best for a parent.
Nothing you do will change founders' opinions on the situation. If your founders were on top of things & capable, this wouldn't have been a problem. If they are _really_ on top of things, you might be the problem itself.
Either way, situation won't get better for you personally. Just leave.
Either way, situation won't get better for you personally. Just leave.
I don't see very much comment about the company's mission product or vision. Maybe that's in order to keep it unidentifiable, maybe not. If not—it's not really top of mind for you— the company is gonna shed people at a WFIO if not fail altogether.
Demand enough equity that satisfies your concerns or walk. Pushing for a guy that got you hired, and who has kids to support, to be fired is just dirty. Gently encourage him and the founder to reassign him to areas he can be more useful in.
[deleted]
What are his strong points?
This is always a horrible situation to be in, and if you can't change the way you think about it then the best advice is to leave, it will damage you in ways that you cannot easily perceive.
In my advice I'm going to assume that you and this other employee are a team of two and you both work for the same person (the founder) who I'll just call the manager ok?
If you can change the way you think about it, you might find it to be a very rewarding and life changing event.
First, and this is hard I know, realize that output of the team is your manager's problem, not your problem. I can hear in the way your wrote this that you have taken on tremendous amounts of ownership of the success of this product and so you do the work of two people because the other person is not working as hard as you are.
But here is the thing, if the choice is 'not successful' and you are burnt out, or 'not successful' and you are not burnt out, take the second exit. More importantly, change the criteria for 'success' in your mind from "product" to "what you have produced." Set clear dividing lines of what is 'yours' and what is assigned to this other person, communicate those clearly with the manager and get their buy in (if they are a sociopath be sure and get it in writing).
Then you can communicate with the manager in terms of how you've been successful at getting your parts done, tested, deployed, etc. That the whole system isn't done, tested or deployed isn't your problem anymore. Can you see how that works? It is the manager's problem.
My Grandfather had a phrase that went something like "You can't plow a field with an ox and an ass." It refers to using two farm animals hitched, as a team, to a plow that the farmer would walk behind while the animals pulled it through the field. The ass (or donkey) can walk much faster than the ox, but the ox is much stronger in pulling. Since a team is hitched together, our clueless farmer is trying to get the speed of one and the strength of the other to plow his fields faster. But the reality is that they can't work together because in the harness their attributes work against each other.
Your manager needs to match you up with someone who is closer to your talents if they want to get the job done, or they have to settle for plowing with one ox.
The second thing you can do to improve things is to develop some compassion for your co-worker, who in your words, "his personal life is a chaotic mess". While you are doing lots of great work, try to imagine how you would accomplish that if one of your parents was living with you and needed you for basic things like getting in and out of bed or using the toilet. You might imagine these outside family demands to be so chaotic that you don't know what you can commit to because you can't say for sure you will have 4 or 5 hours in one shot to work on something. Now add to that stress your own co-workers judging you harshly because you aren't getting things done that you are supposed to. Guilt, responsibility, fear, anxiety, it's the full depression cocktail and unless your co-worker is super human, they are probably in a really bad place right now.
Imagine the scenario where you convince the manager to fire this person and hire someone else, and that person who is fired commits suicide because they feel like if they can't hold a job they have no reason left to live. That is an extreme case but it does happen.
So if you can change your outlook on this person from being a slacker to being a superstar who has a lot of crap going on in their life that is keeping their performance down, then start to strategize with them on ways they can help even with their otherwise over whelming life issues. Talk to them about partitioning up the work into chunks they can manage in disjointed time opportunities. Maybe have them do less technical work and more technical debt cleanup or accounting. Work with them to find ways they can contribute meaningfully and you may find you are repaid ten fold as their life gets more into balance. Be there for them, and they will be there for you when you need it.
If you can change the way you 'score' life, the way in which you see success and failure, then you can be successful in all that you do. It will help avoid the toxic cycle of blame and depression that affects so many people in startups.
In my advice I'm going to assume that you and this other employee are a team of two and you both work for the same person (the founder) who I'll just call the manager ok?
If you can change the way you think about it, you might find it to be a very rewarding and life changing event.
First, and this is hard I know, realize that output of the team is your manager's problem, not your problem. I can hear in the way your wrote this that you have taken on tremendous amounts of ownership of the success of this product and so you do the work of two people because the other person is not working as hard as you are.
But here is the thing, if the choice is 'not successful' and you are burnt out, or 'not successful' and you are not burnt out, take the second exit. More importantly, change the criteria for 'success' in your mind from "product" to "what you have produced." Set clear dividing lines of what is 'yours' and what is assigned to this other person, communicate those clearly with the manager and get their buy in (if they are a sociopath be sure and get it in writing).
Then you can communicate with the manager in terms of how you've been successful at getting your parts done, tested, deployed, etc. That the whole system isn't done, tested or deployed isn't your problem anymore. Can you see how that works? It is the manager's problem.
My Grandfather had a phrase that went something like "You can't plow a field with an ox and an ass." It refers to using two farm animals hitched, as a team, to a plow that the farmer would walk behind while the animals pulled it through the field. The ass (or donkey) can walk much faster than the ox, but the ox is much stronger in pulling. Since a team is hitched together, our clueless farmer is trying to get the speed of one and the strength of the other to plow his fields faster. But the reality is that they can't work together because in the harness their attributes work against each other.
Your manager needs to match you up with someone who is closer to your talents if they want to get the job done, or they have to settle for plowing with one ox.
The second thing you can do to improve things is to develop some compassion for your co-worker, who in your words, "his personal life is a chaotic mess". While you are doing lots of great work, try to imagine how you would accomplish that if one of your parents was living with you and needed you for basic things like getting in and out of bed or using the toilet. You might imagine these outside family demands to be so chaotic that you don't know what you can commit to because you can't say for sure you will have 4 or 5 hours in one shot to work on something. Now add to that stress your own co-workers judging you harshly because you aren't getting things done that you are supposed to. Guilt, responsibility, fear, anxiety, it's the full depression cocktail and unless your co-worker is super human, they are probably in a really bad place right now.
Imagine the scenario where you convince the manager to fire this person and hire someone else, and that person who is fired commits suicide because they feel like if they can't hold a job they have no reason left to live. That is an extreme case but it does happen.
So if you can change your outlook on this person from being a slacker to being a superstar who has a lot of crap going on in their life that is keeping their performance down, then start to strategize with them on ways they can help even with their otherwise over whelming life issues. Talk to them about partitioning up the work into chunks they can manage in disjointed time opportunities. Maybe have them do less technical work and more technical debt cleanup or accounting. Work with them to find ways they can contribute meaningfully and you may find you are repaid ten fold as their life gets more into balance. Be there for them, and they will be there for you when you need it.
If you can change the way you 'score' life, the way in which you see success and failure, then you can be successful in all that you do. It will help avoid the toxic cycle of blame and depression that affects so many people in startups.
Exactly.
And given that the coworker was there before OP was, it's very likely that there's more going on than they see.
I was in a similar situation (lots of life stuff, manager of a team, accused of underperforming), and I had to deal with a lot of special requests because I knew basically everything at the company. When I left, my coworkers contacted me to say that they didn't realize how much I actually did and that they're surprised I was able to get as much done as I did.
You don't know their situation, and you don't need to. Get your work done, help out where reasonable, but leave it at that. If the manager asks why things are late, be frank (I did my part and X and Y for coworker Z), but don't point fingers. It's not your job to fix the company unless you're primarily paid in equity (doesn't seem to be the case), and even then, there's probably a better way than trying to get someone fired (options you mentioned).
We basically did what your suggested with another employee who was under performing, and once he got the right fit, he did much better. Sometimes it takes a third party to see your weaknesses and suggest a better fit.
And given that the coworker was there before OP was, it's very likely that there's more going on than they see.
I was in a similar situation (lots of life stuff, manager of a team, accused of underperforming), and I had to deal with a lot of special requests because I knew basically everything at the company. When I left, my coworkers contacted me to say that they didn't realize how much I actually did and that they're surprised I was able to get as much done as I did.
You don't know their situation, and you don't need to. Get your work done, help out where reasonable, but leave it at that. If the manager asks why things are late, be frank (I did my part and X and Y for coworker Z), but don't point fingers. It's not your job to fix the company unless you're primarily paid in equity (doesn't seem to be the case), and even then, there's probably a better way than trying to get someone fired (options you mentioned).
We basically did what your suggested with another employee who was under performing, and once he got the right fit, he did much better. Sometimes it takes a third party to see your weaknesses and suggest a better fit.
if you're as valuable to the project as you say, renegotiate your own salary. Ask for a lot more.
run fast...you recommended that current problem..or suggest a different solution to the founder
pick one
pick one
Dear Anon192, I noticed several wordings and sentences in your post that make it seem like you're identifying yourself too much with your company:
> very promising startup [...] > [...] that will hurt our chances of raising more funding
This is a big red flag for me (been there done that), and I want to recommend you spend some time reflecting on why you have become so "attached" to your startup. Are you deriving your sense of achievement, happiness and self-worth due to the work you're currently doing?
If you are, you need to quickly snap out of it because this is not good for you. Your worth as a human being is not tied to the code quantity, quality, and test coverage. Sure it feels great to be useful and achieve something technical, but it is not good to depend on this for your feelings and self-worth because such "coupling" to the job can come back and bite you big time.
Let me explain. When your self feeds on the "achievement buzz" you experience from getting good things done on the job ("Yey I'm a great person because I achieved A, B, C today and they are perform really well"). This sounds like a good thing—why shouldn't you be able to take pride in your work and derive personal good feelings from you hard work? The problem is that it's not always going to be good: negative feedback from the job world will hit you really hard ("Oh I suck, because X doesn't work, Y is slow, and Z never shipped"). The only way to avoid this job->personal problems is to avoid the "tight coupling" and not identify so strongly with your job/startup. The next time something great happens at work, you ship something, you achieve a breakthrough, etc. don't let you ego feed on that positive feedback. Just say "yes it was a good day at work" (i.e. don't put yourself personally in the picture "I'm so great because I did this") You have to stay at arms length. Then when negative feedback comes up at work you can say "This was a bad day at work" and won't feel personally affected by this. Basically, you want the "job system" to be able to crash, without your "self system" being affected.
I think if you take my advice and reconsider your "tight coupling" to the job/company, the problems you're experiencing with your colleague will become easer to manage. It's not your job to think about the wellbeing of the company as a whole. Just focus on your tasks, and don't try to fix other people. Sure if feels great to ship lots of things quickly, but it doesn't HAVE to be this way, and when productivity doesn't happen there is no need to beat yourself up about it. Rushing and pushing harder doesn't work long term. Just keep shipping at the pace that the team can support and don't try to go faster than that. Instead try doing less, taking afternoons off, and stop compensating for your colleague in order to achieve some higher ideal standard of productivity.
In another commend, ChuckMcM gave this advice """More importantly, change the criteria for 'success' in your mind from "product" to "what you have produced." """ which is very good and could be a first step to the de-coupling work you have to do from the company.
> very promising startup [...] > [...] that will hurt our chances of raising more funding
This is a big red flag for me (been there done that), and I want to recommend you spend some time reflecting on why you have become so "attached" to your startup. Are you deriving your sense of achievement, happiness and self-worth due to the work you're currently doing?
If you are, you need to quickly snap out of it because this is not good for you. Your worth as a human being is not tied to the code quantity, quality, and test coverage. Sure it feels great to be useful and achieve something technical, but it is not good to depend on this for your feelings and self-worth because such "coupling" to the job can come back and bite you big time.
Let me explain. When your self feeds on the "achievement buzz" you experience from getting good things done on the job ("Yey I'm a great person because I achieved A, B, C today and they are perform really well"). This sounds like a good thing—why shouldn't you be able to take pride in your work and derive personal good feelings from you hard work? The problem is that it's not always going to be good: negative feedback from the job world will hit you really hard ("Oh I suck, because X doesn't work, Y is slow, and Z never shipped"). The only way to avoid this job->personal problems is to avoid the "tight coupling" and not identify so strongly with your job/startup. The next time something great happens at work, you ship something, you achieve a breakthrough, etc. don't let you ego feed on that positive feedback. Just say "yes it was a good day at work" (i.e. don't put yourself personally in the picture "I'm so great because I did this") You have to stay at arms length. Then when negative feedback comes up at work you can say "This was a bad day at work" and won't feel personally affected by this. Basically, you want the "job system" to be able to crash, without your "self system" being affected.
I think if you take my advice and reconsider your "tight coupling" to the job/company, the problems you're experiencing with your colleague will become easer to manage. It's not your job to think about the wellbeing of the company as a whole. Just focus on your tasks, and don't try to fix other people. Sure if feels great to ship lots of things quickly, but it doesn't HAVE to be this way, and when productivity doesn't happen there is no need to beat yourself up about it. Rushing and pushing harder doesn't work long term. Just keep shipping at the pace that the team can support and don't try to go faster than that. Instead try doing less, taking afternoons off, and stop compensating for your colleague in order to achieve some higher ideal standard of productivity.
In another commend, ChuckMcM gave this advice """More importantly, change the criteria for 'success' in your mind from "product" to "what you have produced." """ which is very good and could be a first step to the de-coupling work you have to do from the company.
You sound like the problem. I would counsel the founders to replace you.
Please don't post shallow dismissals to HN. Assuming your underlying point (whatever it may be) is a good one, no one can learn anything from a comment like this, and meanwhile it just pours acid into this place. As a commenter on HN, you owe better to both a fellow user and to the community.
Strongly disagree. The OP sounds like an incredibly toxic person and the sooner he recognizes that the sooner he can become a less toxic person.
I'd put money down that the founder of this company is only going to keep the OP on until he can find someone to replace him.
I'd put money down that the founder of this company is only going to keep the OP on until he can find someone to replace him.
[deleted]
Regardless of your opinion your comment is not particularly helpful.
It’s clear OP is asking for advice and may be amenable to ideas on how to coach themselves, if convinced they “are the problem”.
It’s clear OP is asking for advice and may be amenable to ideas on how to coach themselves, if convinced they “are the problem”.
Sometime recognizing and realizing one is the problem is the first step of resolution.
(We turned this into a text post from https://pastebin.com/fUDeC4NQ. It was getting hit by a spam filter but we turned that off as well.)
OP, it seems you are worried about your startup going underground.
It's shocking that some people are telling you to quit even when you've already put a lot of foundational work into the company.
I suggest you go to founder and ask him for more equity or wage hike.
It's possible that founder got your coworker because he failed to find the talent worth hiring in the first place and that might only be his job, not development.
Maybe he's on the strategy side. You didn't not disclose what this person is getting paid vs what you are getting paid.
It's not clear whats your compensation vs what's his.
Sometimes, the person who arrives first get paid more in equity just because he believed in the idea first and joined the team regardless of their technical competence. It might be hard to swallow.
But since you deem it's unfair, i request you to take up the compensation matter with CEO, get your worth of equity/wage hike so that you finally stop complaining and feel justified.
It's shocking that some people are telling you to quit even when you've already put a lot of foundational work into the company.
I suggest you go to founder and ask him for more equity or wage hike.
It's possible that founder got your coworker because he failed to find the talent worth hiring in the first place and that might only be his job, not development.
Maybe he's on the strategy side. You didn't not disclose what this person is getting paid vs what you are getting paid.
It's not clear whats your compensation vs what's his.
Sometimes, the person who arrives first get paid more in equity just because he believed in the idea first and joined the team regardless of their technical competence. It might be hard to swallow.
But since you deem it's unfair, i request you to take up the compensation matter with CEO, get your worth of equity/wage hike so that you finally stop complaining and feel justified.
I'm half of a development team at a young (but very promising startup). We have angel funding and seed funding and are working our way towards proving our product is profitable for the next round. I was brought aboard by the other half of the development team, the subject of this post, who recommended me to the founder/CEO.
During my first few 3 months of being hired, we re-wrote the entire application to meet the requirements that the previous developers couldn't meet due to them being junior and inexperienced (who were later fired). When I say "we", I really mean "I". This is where the problems lie. The other developer on the team has productivity issues. He has the title of "principal engineer" but he his full time duties are development oriented. And he cannot perform. When tasked with debugging software issues, he cannot solve them on his own. When tasked with developing new components, he cannot make decisions or create them on his own. He's been in the business for many years, and I worked with him at our last job together, where he was let go for productivity reasons. He is a smart individual, but he cannot produce, and he cannot "play jazz" to solve software problems.
On top of this, his personal life is a chaotic mess, and he is constantly clocking in late and signing off very early to babysit his young children. Even if he could solve the issues he is tasked with, his personal life is so burdened with responsibility that he cannot put in the hours or focus required to complete the tasks. His days are frequently interrupted by needing to pick up his kids or drop them off, or whatever else he needs to do. These were the exact issues at our last startup job as well.
I, on the other hand, work my ass off. I pull long hours all week. I've always been productivity-oriented and have a high engineering standard for excellence. I build big systems fast with great test coverage, and they meet requirements. I don't need anyone to hold my hand to step into a debugger or provision machines in our infrastructure. I'm busting my ass to pull his weight along with mine. I schedule work, prune our stories, assign what needs to be done, and then do my part in solving it.
I'm beginning to form a toxic opinion about this coworker. I'm feeling very resentful towards him that he gets cut so much slack for his personal responsibilities. I'm resentful that he can be pretending to work all week but have nothing to show for it at the end of the week except excuses about why he had trouble. He's not putting in what the founder and I are. But he technically outranks me, so I cannot "sit him down" in the way someone with more authority could. I could sit down with him as a peer, but he is known for snapping at people (even the founder) who question his productivity. And I don't think the discussion would have any positive outcome anyways. His issues are systemic.
The founder knows all about this, and I've made it very clear to him how I feel. He knows that I've written the vast majority of the systems and solved the vast majority of the issues we've encountered. He knows we cannot rely on the underperforming employee for anything serious. However, he won't act because of how it looks to the outside. It will look like he doesn't know how to find good people. It will look like internally we chaotic if we let him go, and that will hurt our chances of raising more funding. I told him very recently though that it's reaching a breaking point for me, and I cannot work with him any longer.
I need advice on how to proceed. I am willing to walk away from the job if the founder won't fire the other employee. But I don't want to be that guy that is like "it's either me or him." I just want the founder to act on what we've agreed the situation to be. He needs to fire this guy. He costs money and drags down productivity by slowing the rest of us down. And he kills morale. How do I convince the founder that he can massage the staff change into something more palatable? I know he doesn't want to lose me...he's made that abundantly clear. But I also don't want to be the one to put a gun to his head to make a choice. But i'm at my wits end at dealing with this guy.