Gab will become a Mastodon fork(gab.com)
gab.com
Gab will become a Mastodon fork
https://gab.com/gab/posts/VnZRendFcDM1alBhNm9QeWV4d0xidz09
334 comments
Those focused on Gab's audience should realize this kind of attempt is the best hope for a global migration off of twitter to a decentralized service. (Which to me, would be a good thing.)
If it was ever going to happen at this point, it would probably be by venture backed company addressing an alienated audience from the platform who is incentivized enough to switch platforms, building a good UX around a decentralized alternative, and then hoping you can get enough critical mass for network effects to kick in. In the limit, the alt-right focus of Gab will eventually dilute away if the edges of the network get built up and Gab is just another (big) node in the network -- nascent services have an audience focus to get traction that self-evidently goes away as they reach global scale. You don't have to like their choice of initial audience, but this strategic execution certainly seems one worth keeping an eye on, not just to see if the migration starts to happen at a larger scale but also because if they validate the strategy other companies can target similar niche audiences.
If it was ever going to happen at this point, it would probably be by venture backed company addressing an alienated audience from the platform who is incentivized enough to switch platforms, building a good UX around a decentralized alternative, and then hoping you can get enough critical mass for network effects to kick in. In the limit, the alt-right focus of Gab will eventually dilute away if the edges of the network get built up and Gab is just another (big) node in the network -- nascent services have an audience focus to get traction that self-evidently goes away as they reach global scale. You don't have to like their choice of initial audience, but this strategic execution certainly seems one worth keeping an eye on, not just to see if the migration starts to happen at a larger scale but also because if they validate the strategy other companies can target similar niche audiences.
Most of the Mastodon network will ban Gab immediately (and the founder of Gab acknowledges as much in the comments of the article), community dilution is very unlikely. But they will get to share federation with a variety of other alt-right and free speech zone Mastodon servers which have been banned by the larger fediverse community.
As it should be -- by community dilution I was referring more to mind share around Mastodon and also the likelihood that Gab's community would soften its alt-right focus if it's able to get traction with a wider audience that may lean right but is not hard right.
I think this kind of federation for under-served audiences, combined with good productization, is a necessary step towards a future where fan-out 'microblogging' has the same place in our society as email. To me, it was quite a sight to see Congress speaking to half a dozen white men about how to decide what words people can say to each other over the Internet -- the absence of a representative for regulating "email speech" made it clear the importance of decentralizing these services.
I think this kind of federation for under-served audiences, combined with good productization, is a necessary step towards a future where fan-out 'microblogging' has the same place in our society as email. To me, it was quite a sight to see Congress speaking to half a dozen white men about how to decide what words people can say to each other over the Internet -- the absence of a representative for regulating "email speech" made it clear the importance of decentralizing these services.
It's hard to really claim Gab is alt-right when the truth is really more that it's alt anything. Remember the good old days of usenet, where alt represented all the usenet "channels" that basically didn't give a damn and weren't sponsored by anyone in particular? Sure you had your flame wars, but back then no one got banned for it. The advantage of services like Twitter is that whatever agenda Twitter wants to control, they control. The ability to control the narrative is certainly a profitable one. What was the quote? When the service is free, you're the product. Think on that.
Is it just a coincidence, then, that every time I refreshed this article, literally every single user listed under "who to follow" was alt-right, a white supremacist or a Nazi?
Or that the company itself has repeatedly made anti-Semitic statements?
Or that there are photographs of the founder making white supremacist hand signs?
Or that the company itself has repeatedly made anti-Semitic statements?
Or that there are photographs of the founder making white supremacist hand signs?
Shit, I pre-emptively banned gab.com and gab.ai on my Mastodon instance and they ain't even up yet.
Precisely, to me this is a big experiment in decentralised networks. Like Gab or not, this is an interesting observation.
>You don't have to like their choice of initial audience
And what exactly leads you to believe that gab is going to somehow morph into a site for anything other than their "initial audience"? Why would "normal" folks actively seek out and participate in a forum full of racist, radical white supremacists?
And what exactly leads you to believe that gab is going to somehow morph into a site for anything other than their "initial audience"? Why would "normal" folks actively seek out and participate in a forum full of racist, radical white supremacists?
Gab solicited $5M [1] in investments just to use open source software that anyone can use for free. Wonder how those investors feel about it.
[1]: https://thinkprogress.org/social-network-that-caters-to-whit...
[1]: https://thinkprogress.org/social-network-that-caters-to-whit...
In terms of value, the software IP of social networking companies is dwarfed by their network, their brand, and their operational capacity. Just getting code doesn't get you any of these. Investors should be pleased they are not re-inventing the wheel.
In spite of the fact that Gab is a known cess pool (cis pool?), I funded it because we need more alternatives to the big social networks. I would have funded Tor and 4chan had I the opportunity many years ago.
Not too long ago this was a classical liberal position. Today free speech is passé. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
I'm happy to see that Gab is switching to Mastodon. I think it will increase the survivability of the platform. They've struggled under the engineering challenges of scaling a social network. Mastodon fans should be happy that this may mean an influx of hosts and developers.
Not too long ago this was a classical liberal position. Today free speech is passé. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
I'm happy to see that Gab is switching to Mastodon. I think it will increase the survivability of the platform. They've struggled under the engineering challenges of scaling a social network. Mastodon fans should be happy that this may mean an influx of hosts and developers.
Why are free speech absolutists only supporting fascists?
Where are the people advocating for the destruction of intellectual property rights, for widespread declassification of state communications, for suffrage rights for felons, and for unionization and striking rights? I don't exactly see the gab users advocating for laws permitting sympathetic striking.
Where are the people advocating for the destruction of intellectual property rights, for widespread declassification of state communications, for suffrage rights for felons, and for unionization and striking rights? I don't exactly see the gab users advocating for laws permitting sympathetic striking.
Because those opinions are not being banned by existing social media platforms. Whereas so-called "fascists" (who are not really fascists) are.
No one is banning those opinions on gab, there is simply no point in them being there because they are free to post those opinions on twitter (and others) with impunity.
No one is banning those opinions on gab, there is simply no point in them being there because they are free to post those opinions on twitter (and others) with impunity.
Are you hoping no one here has visited gab, or have you never visited gab? Because if you're claiming that site isn't full of literal fascists, it can only be one of the two.
> Why are free speech absolutists only supporting fascists?
They aren't. You're totally free to advocate instituting a Marxists state, the execution of the bourgeoisen masse, and forming a communist society on Gab. Gab has the blanket policy that any legal speech is okay on their platform (and yes, calling for the execution of the bourgeois is legal in the US. Non-specific threats of violence are legal as per Brandenburg v. Ohio). There's nothing fascist about that in and of itself. The fact that Gab is filled with fascists is because of displacement. Fascists got banned from all the major platforms, so the only ones that don't ban them like Gab and 4chan are full of them.
Free speech absolutists are disproportionately made of up right wingers these days, likely because the right wing is being subject to harsher censorship. I think it's unambiguously true that most big tech platforms are overtly biased in their policing. People are getting banned for tweeting "learn to code" to journalists (in mockery of how some suggested that laid off coal miners should learn to code). And by comparison, verified leftist Twitter users outright advocated for the doxxing and violence of the Covington high school students with no apparent repercussion. This podcast with Jack Dorsey, Twitter's global lead for trust and safety, and Tim Pool gives some good insight into the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZCBRHOg3PQ
> Where are the people advocating for the destruction of intellectual property rights, for widespread declassification of state communications, for suffrage rights for felons, and for unionization and striking rights? I don't exactly see the gab users advocating for laws permitting sympathetic striking.
This is pure whataboutism. What do any of those things have to do with free speech? Why do you assume that support for freedom of speech should needs to be coupled with destruction of intellectual property rights? Is it not possible to staunchly believe in free speech but also believe that patents are an effective way of incentivizing innovation by allowing innovators to monetize their work? Why does freedom of speech have anything to do with unionization or letting felons vote?
They aren't. You're totally free to advocate instituting a Marxists state, the execution of the bourgeoisen masse, and forming a communist society on Gab. Gab has the blanket policy that any legal speech is okay on their platform (and yes, calling for the execution of the bourgeois is legal in the US. Non-specific threats of violence are legal as per Brandenburg v. Ohio). There's nothing fascist about that in and of itself. The fact that Gab is filled with fascists is because of displacement. Fascists got banned from all the major platforms, so the only ones that don't ban them like Gab and 4chan are full of them.
Free speech absolutists are disproportionately made of up right wingers these days, likely because the right wing is being subject to harsher censorship. I think it's unambiguously true that most big tech platforms are overtly biased in their policing. People are getting banned for tweeting "learn to code" to journalists (in mockery of how some suggested that laid off coal miners should learn to code). And by comparison, verified leftist Twitter users outright advocated for the doxxing and violence of the Covington high school students with no apparent repercussion. This podcast with Jack Dorsey, Twitter's global lead for trust and safety, and Tim Pool gives some good insight into the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZCBRHOg3PQ
> Where are the people advocating for the destruction of intellectual property rights, for widespread declassification of state communications, for suffrage rights for felons, and for unionization and striking rights? I don't exactly see the gab users advocating for laws permitting sympathetic striking.
This is pure whataboutism. What do any of those things have to do with free speech? Why do you assume that support for freedom of speech should needs to be coupled with destruction of intellectual property rights? Is it not possible to staunchly believe in free speech but also believe that patents are an effective way of incentivizing innovation by allowing innovators to monetize their work? Why does freedom of speech have anything to do with unionization or letting felons vote?
> so the only ones that don't ban them like Gab and 4chan are full of them.
To be fair, you see just as many if not more socialist and black bloc anarchist content on /pol/ as you do nazi content. It's a meme and most of it is posted by the same people.
Heck, I know one of the more prolific white supremacist troll /pol/lacks and he's Pakistani.
While I don't think it should be considered lightly, a lot of the reporting about that board comes from journalists that know better and deliberately deceive the public because it gets hits.
To be fair, you see just as many if not more socialist and black bloc anarchist content on /pol/ as you do nazi content. It's a meme and most of it is posted by the same people.
Heck, I know one of the more prolific white supremacist troll /pol/lacks and he's Pakistani.
While I don't think it should be considered lightly, a lot of the reporting about that board comes from journalists that know better and deliberately deceive the public because it gets hits.
HN crowd is not that open to opinions.
> I would have funded Tor and 4chan had I the opportunity many years ago.
> Not too long ago this was a classical liberal position.
I'm not sure who or what you're thinking of, but the classical liberal position would be to support something like the Cambridge Union, Cleveland City Club, or some other free speech and debate forum where social norms exist.
> Not too long ago this was a classical liberal position.
I'm not sure who or what you're thinking of, but the classical liberal position would be to support something like the Cambridge Union, Cleveland City Club, or some other free speech and debate forum where social norms exist.
The classic liberal position was also to support the rights of Nazis to march down a Jewish neighboorhood.
Regarding free speech, the classic standard is "content neutrality", which means that, regardless of the media, the decision on allowing certain speech cannot be based on what the speech is.
Regarding free speech, the classic standard is "content neutrality", which means that, regardless of the media, the decision on allowing certain speech cannot be based on what the speech is.
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> The classic liberal position was also to support the rights of Nazis to march down a Jewish neighboorhood.
Well then!
Well then!
> Not too long ago this was a classical liberal position. Today free speech is passé. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
It's not old fashioned, it's just that people differentiate free speech in principle from paying the server bills. Just as freedom of the press never meant the newspaper had to publish your op-ed, free speech online doesn't mean Twitter has to give anyone server space to post Nazi stuff.
(I agree that there should be more platforms, but that's why I've supported other Mastadon instances instead of Gab.)
It's not old fashioned, it's just that people differentiate free speech in principle from paying the server bills. Just as freedom of the press never meant the newspaper had to publish your op-ed, free speech online doesn't mean Twitter has to give anyone server space to post Nazi stuff.
(I agree that there should be more platforms, but that's why I've supported other Mastadon instances instead of Gab.)
Which is why I welcome Gab forking Mastodon.
True, they may not have the same reach as everybody else, but they can have their own decentralised space to air their views and build their own stuff rather than relying on the mainstream social networks, free from censorship.
True, they may not have the same reach as everybody else, but they can have their own decentralised space to air their views and build their own stuff rather than relying on the mainstream social networks, free from censorship.
All the big sites face government pressure to censor. In addition anyone inside these companies that would support free speech has to walk on eggshells not to be fired for creating an unsafe environment - again the government's hand this time indirect.
Imagine the conversation: this is fake news, we should remove it. No it isn't fake. You're making me feel unsafe, ill have the government put you in a cage.
Imagine the conversation: this is fake news, we should remove it. No it isn't fake. You're making me feel unsafe, ill have the government put you in a cage.
The problem is that Twitter's definition of "nazis" basically is "anyone we don't like, which isn't exactly useful for the overall benefit of humanity. Sort of like how FB recently said that they are going to deplatform white supremacists. Why not all supremacists, while you're at it, or don't pretend that you are doing something for any kind of greater good...
> The problem is that Twitter's definition of "nazis" basically is "anyone we don't like
No, it really isn't. It's a minority of people calling for violent white supremecy.
No, it really isn't. It's a minority of people calling for violent white supremecy.
According to their hipster in chief though, actually doing ethnic cleansing is perfectly fine though, if you are Burmese... That's rather hypocritical -- either ban all nazis, or don't pretend that you are not picking sides. And speaking of sides, if you ban nazis but not the equially murderous communists then I don't see how you can claim any high moral ground. And I haven't heard of any communist purges in the social media platforms.
Example?
You can still get away with that if you just dress it up a little.
But it's not limited to "white" nationalists.
They recently deplatformed infamous anti-semite and black nationalist Louis Farrakhan. And before anyone says this guy has always been a crank: he was actively being courted by Repulicans like Jack Kemp in the 1980s back when his anti-communist views were deemed politically useful.
They recently deplatformed infamous anti-semite and black nationalist Louis Farrakhan. And before anyone says this guy has always been a crank: he was actively being courted by Repulicans like Jack Kemp in the 1980s back when his anti-communist views were deemed politically useful.
> And before anyone says this guy has always been a crank: he was actively being courted by Repulicans like Jack Kemp in the 1980s back when his anti-communist views were deemed politically useful.
Maybe such a claim is useful to you but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I grew up in the 80s, in a conservative household, and in New York City - Jack Kemp's home turf.
His political career was effectively over by 1982, taking 6 years to really die and I don't think I heard his name mentioned a single time in the 15 years I grew up having to listen to conservative talk radio all day every day.
What I did have to hear though, starting from the beginning of Bob Grant's era through Sliwa's morning and Limbaugh's afternoon shows, was what a threat to American society Louis Farrakhan was. He literally was enemy number one in the crosshairs of right-wing talk radio hosts for nearly 20 years.
Maybe such a claim is useful to you but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I grew up in the 80s, in a conservative household, and in New York City - Jack Kemp's home turf.
His political career was effectively over by 1982, taking 6 years to really die and I don't think I heard his name mentioned a single time in the 15 years I grew up having to listen to conservative talk radio all day every day.
What I did have to hear though, starting from the beginning of Bob Grant's era through Sliwa's morning and Limbaugh's afternoon shows, was what a threat to American society Louis Farrakhan was. He literally was enemy number one in the crosshairs of right-wing talk radio hosts for nearly 20 years.
Jack Kemp was Bob Dole’s VP nominee and continued to praise Farrakhan into the 90s. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/10/us/kemp-praises-farrakhan...
I understand these days the conservative establishment is mostly in sync with what’s said on talk radio, but that wasn’t always the case.
I understand these days the conservative establishment is mostly in sync with what’s said on talk radio, but that wasn’t always the case.
Dole lost badly as I recall and Clinton regularly reminded people of Dole's age during his campaigning. Dole was widely thought to be too old to serve two terms and maybe not even a whole first term. Literally nobody wanted Kemp to be president were that to happen.
That seems to be a prime example of "too little, too late", and looks like a rather han-fisted attempt to appear fair.
anth_anm(1)
Presumably, they're more irritated by the fact that the social network they invested in is a ghost town populated by bots and spammers† punctuated by virulent white supremacy. As I'm fond of pointing out, even the Gab accounts that post inspirational landscape photography and "hang in there" photos are, when you dig into their post history, white supremacists. I'd have to imagine anyone who gave a material amount of money to Gab is already comfortable enabling the kind of forum that gave rise to the Tree of Life shooting. But I can't imagine any investor being OK with a moribund social network.
The fact that, in 2019, you can't post on Gab without effectively declaring an affinity for white supremacy (whether you agree or not, that's certainly the message you'd broadcast by doing so) can't help user acquisition either.
† It's been a minute since I looked, but all the accounts I had there, none of which have ever interacted with the site, seem to be, err, popular with the ladies in my area just looking for a good time.
The fact that, in 2019, you can't post on Gab without effectively declaring an affinity for white supremacy (whether you agree or not, that's certainly the message you'd broadcast by doing so) can't help user acquisition either.
† It's been a minute since I looked, but all the accounts I had there, none of which have ever interacted with the site, seem to be, err, popular with the ladies in my area just looking for a good time.
> “Moving to the ActivityPub protocol as our base allows us to get into mobile App Stores without even having to submit and get approval of our own apps, whether Apple and Google like it or not.“
The perils (or benefits?) of open protocols.
Existing mastodon/pleroma clients will be able to connect to Gab by adding a server setting.
Now I wonder if mastodon client app developers will start filtering the allowed servers users can put in...
The perils (or benefits?) of open protocols.
Existing mastodon/pleroma clients will be able to connect to Gab by adding a server setting.
Now I wonder if mastodon client app developers will start filtering the allowed servers users can put in...
> Now I wonder if mastodon client app developers will start filtering the allowed servers users can put in...
This is not the duty of client applications. Banning instances is the duty of the operators of individual instances, and the instance(s) on which you have your account(s) are the instance(s) whose blocking policy affects you. This is a feature.
Most sane instances on the Fediverse already ban extremist and alt-right content, and Gab will be no different in that case - just another entry on the blacklist, next to https://freespeechextremist.com/ and https://rapefeminists.network and other instances who shamelessly abuse the right to free speech.
This is not the duty of client applications. Banning instances is the duty of the operators of individual instances, and the instance(s) on which you have your account(s) are the instance(s) whose blocking policy affects you. This is a feature.
Most sane instances on the Fediverse already ban extremist and alt-right content, and Gab will be no different in that case - just another entry on the blacklist, next to https://freespeechextremist.com/ and https://rapefeminists.network and other instances who shamelessly abuse the right to free speech.
I wouldn't say they're abusing the right to free speech, they're taking full advantage of it.
If you don't like what they're saying, you have every right to not listen to it, promote it yourself, and you also have the right to start a movement to let people know this is going on and to bring awareness to the festering shitpiles those websites are.
It's not an abuse of the right to free speech.
If you don't like what they're saying, you have every right to not listen to it, promote it yourself, and you also have the right to start a movement to let people know this is going on and to bring awareness to the festering shitpiles those websites are.
It's not an abuse of the right to free speech.
using free speech to agitate for removing life and freedoms from whole groups of people is abuse
yeah, but only if everyone agrees on what constitutes rights and freedom.
Is the BDS movement abusing or using their rights to free speech?
Is the BDS movement abusing or using their rights to free speech?
AFAIK they are fighting for the right to live of palestinians
And fighting against that same right for those subject to the boycott.
Let's flip this around - if I started a movement to Boycott, divest, and sanction palestinians would my speech create real world harm?
Let's flip this around - if I started a movement to Boycott, divest, and sanction palestinians would my speech create real world harm?
Many people come to a conclusion that that the classical definition of free speech is easily abusable when enough people gather and utilize free speech to promote hatred, closed-mindedness and bigotry. Thanks to free speech instances we get hoaxes like the ones that way 5G is a mortal danger, vaccines are a mortal danger, women, Muslims, Jews and people of color are despicable, and many other interesting "100% verified truths and facts".
I know that the perfect solution for this problem does not conflict with free speech, but if that perfect solution (whatever it is) doesn't come soon enough, the world will get fed up with waiting and implement imperfect solutions, and limiting free speech is first on that list.
I know that the perfect solution for this problem does not conflict with free speech, but if that perfect solution (whatever it is) doesn't come soon enough, the world will get fed up with waiting and implement imperfect solutions, and limiting free speech is first on that list.
> classical definition of free speech is easily abusable
the classical definition of unfree speech is easily abusable, which is why free speech exists.
If an idea is bad, the best way to beat it is with better ideas.
Of course some bad ideas are good at spreading, or otherwise persuasive. But if you take the big picture view, the vast majority of really bad ideas and statements have been imposed centrally and have persisted by latching onto the levers of censorship and censoring all competing viewpoints.
The level of censorship and central control of information is already far too high in our world.
the classical definition of unfree speech is easily abusable, which is why free speech exists.
If an idea is bad, the best way to beat it is with better ideas.
Of course some bad ideas are good at spreading, or otherwise persuasive. But if you take the big picture view, the vast majority of really bad ideas and statements have been imposed centrally and have persisted by latching onto the levers of censorship and censoring all competing viewpoints.
The level of censorship and central control of information is already far too high in our world.
> which is why free speech exists.
Where?
Where?
As an idea and ideal. In practice- to greater and lesser degrees, with varying overton windows, in different places.
yes that's what I meant. The concept of free speech.
WAHA, brain behind a major Mastodon app, has claimed they're blocking Gab in his client and that users can't unblock Gab.
As a free software guy, this troubles me.
This is on par with firefox deciding which websites they should block.
(In fact the Oculus Browser blocks 4chan / 8ch / other sites)
As a free software guy, this troubles me.
This is on par with firefox deciding which websites they should block.
(In fact the Oculus Browser blocks 4chan / 8ch / other sites)
Use free software instead, change it as you please, and build it yourself. WAHA's client is not free and they can do as they please with it.
> This is not the duty of client applications.
It might become their duty. Since Gab's apps are banned, and those apps would be used to access Gab's servers, I could see Apple/Google blocking Mastodon apps as well.
App creators might be forced to ban Gab in order to avoid getting banned from the app stores.
It might become their duty. Since Gab's apps are banned, and those apps would be used to access Gab's servers, I could see Apple/Google blocking Mastodon apps as well.
App creators might be forced to ban Gab in order to avoid getting banned from the app stores.
That would be a fairly absurd position for the app stores to take, given that the exact same argument could be made about web browsers.
I don’t think we should be advocating for app stores to exert any more control over generic client software than they already have.
I don’t think we should be advocating for app stores to exert any more control over generic client software than they already have.
I wholeheartedly hope that this ban will not be limited to the AP protocol. gab is also available through HTTPS, and so popular HTTPS clients, such as Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Safari will also be forced to implement the blacklist.
/s
/s
It's trivial to use a Mastodon instance via a web browser. Are Firefox, Chrome, et al, going to be banned from app stores as well if they don't implement morality policing?
[deleted]
> Now I wonder if mastodon client app developers will start filtering the allowed servers users can put in...
That's precisely what Mastodon's creator suggested earlier today: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/102184195834215862
Of course, he has no authority over mobile apps, so it remains up to app creators to decide. I believe there are three apps that share the majority of users (Fedilab, Tusky, Mast). Most popular instances will probably stop federating with them as soon as they can.
EDIT: Fedilab's creator already expressed that he'll do so to avoid the chance of being banned from the app store.
That's precisely what Mastodon's creator suggested earlier today: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/102184195834215862
Of course, he has no authority over mobile apps, so it remains up to app creators to decide. I believe there are three apps that share the majority of users (Fedilab, Tusky, Mast). Most popular instances will probably stop federating with them as soon as they can.
EDIT: Fedilab's creator already expressed that he'll do so to avoid the chance of being banned from the app store.
Toot! is going to block them.
https://mastodon.social/users/tootapp/statuses/1021853659238...
> In case anyone was wondering due to recent discourse, Toot! will be blocking any gab domains.
> I do not support white supremacy and hatred, and will never support any server that promotes it.
https://mastodon.social/users/tootapp/statuses/1021853659238...
> In case anyone was wondering due to recent discourse, Toot! will be blocking any gab domains.
> I do not support white supremacy and hatred, and will never support any server that promotes it.
Would it be possibly to camoflauge a gab instance as if it were a mastodon instance for the purposes of federation? It probably wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny of a follow up human review, it would bypass the federation block.
I'm sure there will be a sort of "Gab Relay" similar to how the PirateBay avoids domain takedowns by using multiple domains/proxies.
While apple does have some 'technology bars' you have to clear to get into their store. You can't use private APIs in the Apple frameworks for example. There are also 'content' bars that have to be surmounted. I don't think just because they use activity pub or whatever protocol that apple is going to roll over and play nice.
Their whole social network is literally a garbage fire, Apple doesn't want to associate their brand with garbage fires. I expect Gab management is in for a rude awakening.
Their whole social network is literally a garbage fire, Apple doesn't want to associate their brand with garbage fires. I expect Gab management is in for a rude awakening.
Why not? You can already use existing App Store apps to connect to whatever ActivityPub server you want, no matter the content. It's like how you can use an RSS reader app in the App Store to subscribe to literally any RSS feed.
Most likely because it has gone under the radar thus far.
I'm just waiting for the first scandalous "here's how Apple is promoting rampant racism" article to pick up steam.
I'm just waiting for the first scandalous "here's how Apple is promoting rampant racism" article to pick up steam.
Let us hope that nobody tells them about http.
Or email. Some of the most racist shit I've ever seen has come in as a forward from some distant relative who then gets autoshitcanned in the future.
Apple allows alternative web browsers and email clients. They also allow encrypted person to person messengers like whatsapp that terrorists can use to plan attacks.
Any of this type of client app can and will be used for the worst things in the internet. So far Apple has not tried to censor it, I’d be surprised if that changed but we will see.
Any of this type of client app can and will be used for the worst things in the internet. So far Apple has not tried to censor it, I’d be surprised if that changed but we will see.
Matrix/Riot is also federated, banning a client which only real purpose is to connect and follow a protocol because a rogue instance that the end-user has to specifically connects to is spewing filth would be a troubling precedent.
The conclusion I always seem to come to is you eventually want to be able to trust those within your network. I believe that requires some level of initial openness to prove who you are to a personally selected authority you decide to trust, who can verify your identity, and then allow you to communicate/engage with your real name or one-to-many pseudonyms, so if your actions are outside whatever rules exist for that network are violated then you could get a temporary timeout ("sit in the corner and think about what you did"), to permanent ban, to if it is considered criminal by society then reporting the person to appropriate authorities; we can't have inherent fear and distrust a chain of command, there is good in the world - we of course must stand strong, strongly together, and stand guard in order to fight against abuse of power, inauthentic behaviour - and so on - in chain of commands.
How will users of the Gab network know if it is INSERT_NATION_NAME agents, paid and incentivized to manipulate them and cause unrest in a societal structure we call democracy? Perhaps they're not even thinking or caring about it and its consequences, perhaps they're even simply happy they have a helping hand?
From what we've seen it takes very few bad actors to infiltrate a nation's foundational structures once the atmosphere of a population is disenfranchised enough, once we're disconnected and disengaged enough, and that has been accelerated by the cheap economies of scale the internet has afforded.
At the end what I hope for is that security services of democracies are being intelligent and allocating resources to fully and carefully infiltrating these groups (carefully as to not escalate the situation) to know who those who are involved is: this of course comes down to potential overreach, which must be addressed not because you may more easily know/discover who bad actors are - but because it may be bad actors who actually someday may get hold or access to these systems.
How will users of the Gab network know if it is INSERT_NATION_NAME agents, paid and incentivized to manipulate them and cause unrest in a societal structure we call democracy? Perhaps they're not even thinking or caring about it and its consequences, perhaps they're even simply happy they have a helping hand?
From what we've seen it takes very few bad actors to infiltrate a nation's foundational structures once the atmosphere of a population is disenfranchised enough, once we're disconnected and disengaged enough, and that has been accelerated by the cheap economies of scale the internet has afforded.
At the end what I hope for is that security services of democracies are being intelligent and allocating resources to fully and carefully infiltrating these groups (carefully as to not escalate the situation) to know who those who are involved is: this of course comes down to potential overreach, which must be addressed not because you may more easily know/discover who bad actors are - but because it may be bad actors who actually someday may get hold or access to these systems.
The conversation here goes pretty well, no real names required. I actually think it's the opposite, real names bring in our real world problems and identities.
A fresh name is a fresh start and maybe you take the chance to do better this time.
It seems like people feel free to post the most atrocious nonsense on Facebook under their real name or maybe using one of the apparently billions of fake accounts that look just like real people. I don't think trust really works in internet conversations with strangers, you can't ever know their motives even if you know their names.
A fresh name is a fresh start and maybe you take the chance to do better this time.
It seems like people feel free to post the most atrocious nonsense on Facebook under their real name or maybe using one of the apparently billions of fake accounts that look just like real people. I don't think trust really works in internet conversations with strangers, you can't ever know their motives even if you know their names.
When it's civil conversation, then yes. Also my idea for a solution allows for pseudonyms - so then "a fresh name is a fresh start" is possible, or if something you've done is so unacceptable by the community then you should be witnessed and deal with the consequences that a reasonable and uncorrupted court deems appropriate.
Part of atrocious nonsense, as you put you, is lack of accountability and peer pressure with enough mass to influence one's behaviour and thinking. Bubbles of algorithms amplify this problem, and what ends up happening is like with Gab - where what most consider atrocious behaviour simply finds its own platform which creates a bubble of its own without algorithms.
Fake accounts as you mention, is one reason associating with an identity - at least confirmation it is associated with an identity, needs a solution. This becomes a problem when there isn't a chain of command and clear rules for accessing this information, when government is corrupt by bad actors. I'm not saying this identity should be forced on people, they should realize it is beneficial to join a network they trust until they don't - if that happens. With Facebook as an example, they've violated trust of people countless times and yet many still have FB accounts. If data and people were more mobile, more able to move their data around, then people could easily change networks - and let's say their alliances based on the leadership. Is the person in charge, leading a platform/network, someone who in the past called their users "dumb fucks" for trusting them with their data more favourable/trustworthy or someone who addresses issues with authenticity, fully, and while perhaps acknowledging their own mistakes vs. trying to write their bad past behaviour out of the story by not acknowledging it as pivotal moments of growth? Who they'd want at lead is of course for each person to decide based on what resonates with them as trustworthy, what behaviour they align with.
Trust does work on internet conversations, assuming you've developed that skill - or could call it developing your intuition - assuming that your trust systems aren't locked up (ego mind coping mechanism) from trauma - which I'd say in this day is very common. Trust isn't binary - like with our conversation here, I'm sure you trust what I'm saying more than not - whether by the structure of my words and my trying to be careful and clear with my words and meaning, my responses. I'd trust my mother to pick me up somewhere if she says she will, however not with certain other things. And it's true, there will be a percentage of people who are really good at deceiving, being pathological liars, sociopaths, however that's certainly not the majority or where they're purposefully trying to sway someone for their own selfish gain.
Part of atrocious nonsense, as you put you, is lack of accountability and peer pressure with enough mass to influence one's behaviour and thinking. Bubbles of algorithms amplify this problem, and what ends up happening is like with Gab - where what most consider atrocious behaviour simply finds its own platform which creates a bubble of its own without algorithms.
Fake accounts as you mention, is one reason associating with an identity - at least confirmation it is associated with an identity, needs a solution. This becomes a problem when there isn't a chain of command and clear rules for accessing this information, when government is corrupt by bad actors. I'm not saying this identity should be forced on people, they should realize it is beneficial to join a network they trust until they don't - if that happens. With Facebook as an example, they've violated trust of people countless times and yet many still have FB accounts. If data and people were more mobile, more able to move their data around, then people could easily change networks - and let's say their alliances based on the leadership. Is the person in charge, leading a platform/network, someone who in the past called their users "dumb fucks" for trusting them with their data more favourable/trustworthy or someone who addresses issues with authenticity, fully, and while perhaps acknowledging their own mistakes vs. trying to write their bad past behaviour out of the story by not acknowledging it as pivotal moments of growth? Who they'd want at lead is of course for each person to decide based on what resonates with them as trustworthy, what behaviour they align with.
Trust does work on internet conversations, assuming you've developed that skill - or could call it developing your intuition - assuming that your trust systems aren't locked up (ego mind coping mechanism) from trauma - which I'd say in this day is very common. Trust isn't binary - like with our conversation here, I'm sure you trust what I'm saying more than not - whether by the structure of my words and my trying to be careful and clear with my words and meaning, my responses. I'd trust my mother to pick me up somewhere if she says she will, however not with certain other things. And it's true, there will be a percentage of people who are really good at deceiving, being pathological liars, sociopaths, however that's certainly not the majority or where they're purposefully trying to sway someone for their own selfish gain.
You’re saying that intelligence agencies should infiltrate and spy on dissident groups?
Pretty sure they do that already, but weird to see people advocate for it.
Pretty sure they do that already, but weird to see people advocate for it.
To have that conversation we'd first have to define what is meant by dissident groups. If a group is known to be hateful with potential for or threatening violence, knowing their plans is a strategy - is counterterrorism. It's akin to police doing stings for drug busts, or perhaps less controversial - for child sex trafficking; should we turn a blind eye to that and not try to infiltrate that to prevent future harm? The ideal situation is everyone feels connected to everyone else and no one willfully will harm others, that's not what happens however when there is tolerance for hate. Hate will fester under surface building its potential energy until it's released - unless it is quelled by being adequately addressed. This potential energy is what bad actors have been using to rile up the population and is threatening democracy.
We have to decide as a society what that line is - and that it isn't discussed is a problem. There's nuance required for it and a black-or-white solution - full open access for security services vs. complete blackout and being blind also isn't ideal. And is it even possible to allocate resources efficiently enough to do so, perhaps only being ready to enact resources once the hate starts boiling over noticeably? I believe the cheaper solution will be people subscribing to network(s) they trust, where it is known and accessible by the leaders and only the highest in the chain, and how their governance holds for accountability and safety will evolve over time - with best practices evolving.
For example, if all data was instantly movable from Facebook - there would have been entrepreneurs immediately developing duplicate platforms, perhaps with better UXs and features, to capture the perhaps even small amount of users who stopped trusting Facebook's controller(s) - aka Mark Zuckerberg. Even if a small amount of users initially that would have been detrimental to Facebook enough due to network effects being hurt, enough hopefully that would have kept Facebook in line, in check. For each subsequent violation of trust and without an authentic, full response or explanation by leadership, the more fodder there would be for people to disperse to more trusted networks - and people trying to bring their network with them. This mobility is more inherent to and mirrors what real life trust networks look like. If someone violates your trust too strongly and you have no interest in giving them another chance, you can (in most cases) cut them out of your network. When your data is essentially hostage however, it's like you're married, living with them, and you don't have the financial freedom or support to escape an abusive spouse.
It's interesting to see that Mastodon will grow further and allow Gab and the groups it is happy to support to continue conversing in a decentralized manner, and benefitting from tools that may or may not have the authors' blessings to be used for hate and violence.
I've never said if this is negative or positive. Overall it isn't useful to not have conversation because that allows hate to fester, for potential energy to build up enough that then once the blister is ready to pop - it can make a mess, and by mess I mean terrorism to civil war. We now know this riling up of people has been actions and funded by tyrannical governments (bad actors in control of government in other nations) who want to see democracy collapse.
The next Hitler is what we're trying to fight against, however with the internet, data, technology, the bad actors are intelligent enough to know they have to maintain some level of incognito - until perhaps one day they make a massive power move. Journalist Jamal Khashoggi¹ being cut apart alive only murdering him after, likewise the recent poisoning of Alexander Litvinenk² were brazen and obvious attacks - and becoming more and more obvious as to who is aligning to try to fail democracy and strengthen their control, and using tactics like hiring evil people and firms with no integrity like Cambridge Analytica³ who is happy to lie and/or blackmail, and promote propaganda to help bad actors win elections.
Along with current U.S. administration - Trump and family - supporting and condoning these behaviours - Jared Kushner 'justified murder of Saudi dissident journalist Khashoggi, calling him a terrorist’⁴, and Trump trying to signal to worst of humanity that there is no law and they will get away with their horrific behaviour by Trump being expected to pardon Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher of war crimes⁵. And more confirmation of Russia’s propaganda efforts by deploying its team of propagandists to cover up the murder of 298 people on flight MH17⁶ to attempt to control the narrative around the world and within their own population - something that we know China does, and Russia is copying, on a whole other level and we should be equally responsive to knowing what pitfalls exist with censorship.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...
³ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ
⁴ https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/5/30/kushner-jus...
⁵ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crim...
⁶ https://www.thedailybeast.com/mh17-russia-deployed-its-troll...
We have to decide as a society what that line is - and that it isn't discussed is a problem. There's nuance required for it and a black-or-white solution - full open access for security services vs. complete blackout and being blind also isn't ideal. And is it even possible to allocate resources efficiently enough to do so, perhaps only being ready to enact resources once the hate starts boiling over noticeably? I believe the cheaper solution will be people subscribing to network(s) they trust, where it is known and accessible by the leaders and only the highest in the chain, and how their governance holds for accountability and safety will evolve over time - with best practices evolving.
For example, if all data was instantly movable from Facebook - there would have been entrepreneurs immediately developing duplicate platforms, perhaps with better UXs and features, to capture the perhaps even small amount of users who stopped trusting Facebook's controller(s) - aka Mark Zuckerberg. Even if a small amount of users initially that would have been detrimental to Facebook enough due to network effects being hurt, enough hopefully that would have kept Facebook in line, in check. For each subsequent violation of trust and without an authentic, full response or explanation by leadership, the more fodder there would be for people to disperse to more trusted networks - and people trying to bring their network with them. This mobility is more inherent to and mirrors what real life trust networks look like. If someone violates your trust too strongly and you have no interest in giving them another chance, you can (in most cases) cut them out of your network. When your data is essentially hostage however, it's like you're married, living with them, and you don't have the financial freedom or support to escape an abusive spouse.
It's interesting to see that Mastodon will grow further and allow Gab and the groups it is happy to support to continue conversing in a decentralized manner, and benefitting from tools that may or may not have the authors' blessings to be used for hate and violence.
I've never said if this is negative or positive. Overall it isn't useful to not have conversation because that allows hate to fester, for potential energy to build up enough that then once the blister is ready to pop - it can make a mess, and by mess I mean terrorism to civil war. We now know this riling up of people has been actions and funded by tyrannical governments (bad actors in control of government in other nations) who want to see democracy collapse.
The next Hitler is what we're trying to fight against, however with the internet, data, technology, the bad actors are intelligent enough to know they have to maintain some level of incognito - until perhaps one day they make a massive power move. Journalist Jamal Khashoggi¹ being cut apart alive only murdering him after, likewise the recent poisoning of Alexander Litvinenk² were brazen and obvious attacks - and becoming more and more obvious as to who is aligning to try to fail democracy and strengthen their control, and using tactics like hiring evil people and firms with no integrity like Cambridge Analytica³ who is happy to lie and/or blackmail, and promote propaganda to help bad actors win elections.
Along with current U.S. administration - Trump and family - supporting and condoning these behaviours - Jared Kushner 'justified murder of Saudi dissident journalist Khashoggi, calling him a terrorist’⁴, and Trump trying to signal to worst of humanity that there is no law and they will get away with their horrific behaviour by Trump being expected to pardon Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher of war crimes⁵. And more confirmation of Russia’s propaganda efforts by deploying its team of propagandists to cover up the murder of 298 people on flight MH17⁶ to attempt to control the narrative around the world and within their own population - something that we know China does, and Russia is copying, on a whole other level and we should be equally responsive to knowing what pitfalls exist with censorship.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...
³ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ
⁴ https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/5/30/kushner-jus...
⁵ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crim...
⁶ https://www.thedailybeast.com/mh17-russia-deployed-its-troll...
> Now I wonder if mastodon client app developers will start filtering the allowed servers users can put in...
Any action of that kind would only fuel the alt-right persecution complex. Servers however do filtering all the time already, and that's how the Gab folks can be left out of view of the rest of the world.
Any action of that kind would only fuel the alt-right persecution complex. Servers however do filtering all the time already, and that's how the Gab folks can be left out of view of the rest of the world.
Mastodon server instances already have blocked lists of "banned" instances. There's also a common ban list on github, so new server admins can join the federation in a "normal" way. The ban list has some pretty messed up instances it rightfully bans, but they either tend to be illegal or far-right. Far-left content is spread and encouraged.
Note: I'm not trying to take a side in this, and I don't try to identify with any particular "faction" in the federation space.
Note: I'm not trying to take a side in this, and I don't try to identify with any particular "faction" in the federation space.
>> Servers however do filtering all the time already
> Mastodon server instances already have blocked lists of "banned" instances.
well, yes.
> Mastodon server instances already have blocked lists of "banned" instances.
well, yes.
Surely there will be some client apps on F-Droid (and 'fringe' ones on iOS) that won't include any such restrictions. But I agree that the most popular apps might be highly tempted to enforce them, out of image concerns.
Oh, the Mastodon community is going to be ticked about this... Purism said Librem One's server wasn't going to police speech, and they were upset about it. Gab is a whole different level.
I think ActivityPub has huge potential to be a way for communities of disparate views and perspectives to exist out there, and two distinct and very opposing groups have grasped onto it: People who want space spaces who don't think mainstream platforms moderate enough, and the alt-right and free speech crowd.
In the long run, I think you'll see a lot of ActivityPub servers, but two distinct federations, with very few links between them: One radically liberal and one radically conservative.
I think ActivityPub has huge potential to be a way for communities of disparate views and perspectives to exist out there, and two distinct and very opposing groups have grasped onto it: People who want space spaces who don't think mainstream platforms moderate enough, and the alt-right and free speech crowd.
In the long run, I think you'll see a lot of ActivityPub servers, but two distinct federations, with very few links between them: One radically liberal and one radically conservative.
> People who want space spaces who don't think mainstream platforms moderate enough, and the alt-right and free speech crowd.
I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument. I'm a 30 year old white male, and whenever I log onto YouTube I see nothing but recommendations trying to force me down the alt-right rabbit hole.
Sure, Twitter has booted off a few high profile people on the alt right but I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that the debate on Twitter isn't pretty robust.
Where's the censorship? And how attractive is a community of people only for people who have been kicked off larger platforms?
I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument. I'm a 30 year old white male, and whenever I log onto YouTube I see nothing but recommendations trying to force me down the alt-right rabbit hole.
Sure, Twitter has booted off a few high profile people on the alt right but I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that the debate on Twitter isn't pretty robust.
Where's the censorship? And how attractive is a community of people only for people who have been kicked off larger platforms?
I tried Diaspora a while ago, and found the lack of "the center" very unappealing in discussions, and see some of the same today on Mastodon: People who end up on these alternate networks tend to be people who were either banned from mainstream or bullied off of them, so they tend to be the very far ends of the political spectrum on both sides.
I remember when Wil Wheaton tried to join Mastodon, and some transgression he had against one gender identity or another led to him getting bullied off the network, despite him being... fairly bloody liberal. He just wasn't liberal enough for the crowd.
I remember when Wil Wheaton tried to join Mastodon, and some transgression he had against one gender identity or another led to him getting bullied off the network, despite him being... fairly bloody liberal. He just wasn't liberal enough for the crowd.
Not quite. He shared some blocklists that had a disproportionate amount of trans women during Gamergate. The grudge remained, his Mastodon account received a lot of reports, and the admin of the instance he chose decided that he doesn't want to deal with that drama. Wil fully acknowledged that, and decided to stop using social media altogether.
Also, there's no such thing as "not liberal enough". People on the far left aren't liberal — they don't believe in capitalism in the first place. Liberals are more center-left according to US standards, and center-right according to European standards. Further to the left are socialists, communists, and anarchists, not "super-liberals".
Also, there's no such thing as "not liberal enough". People on the far left aren't liberal — they don't believe in capitalism in the first place. Liberals are more center-left according to US standards, and center-right according to European standards. Further to the left are socialists, communists, and anarchists, not "super-liberals".
From what I recall, Wil created two accounts on two different instances without vetting either of them. The first account was on an instance run by a member of the same blocklist "friend group" that caused the Gamergate problems, so it wasn't just an old grudge, but an old wound reopened.
The second instance was a non-US-based instance that looked like mastodon.social but was not (IIRC, the instance was Japanese run and moderated?), and the instance moderators had moderation trouble exacerbated by English not being their first language and moderation not being their full time jobs.
I feel like Wil could have been successful on Mastodon had he found (or founded) an instance better aligned with his interests and moderation needs in mind (maybe even mastodon.social). Part of the problem of the whole debacle was that learning that any way but the hard way was likely next to impossible for someone like Wil, because Federation is complicated and hard enough to explain to technical people, much less someone with so many complicated moderation/community needs by nature of being a "celebrity" to begin with.
(I still sometimes hope that someone like Wil would make the right technical connections to learn everything they need to know in order to thrive in the Fediverse and have joked that I would be happy to be such a guide if I were asked.)
The second instance was a non-US-based instance that looked like mastodon.social but was not (IIRC, the instance was Japanese run and moderated?), and the instance moderators had moderation trouble exacerbated by English not being their first language and moderation not being their full time jobs.
I feel like Wil could have been successful on Mastodon had he found (or founded) an instance better aligned with his interests and moderation needs in mind (maybe even mastodon.social). Part of the problem of the whole debacle was that learning that any way but the hard way was likely next to impossible for someone like Wil, because Federation is complicated and hard enough to explain to technical people, much less someone with so many complicated moderation/community needs by nature of being a "celebrity" to begin with.
(I still sometimes hope that someone like Wil would make the right technical connections to learn everything they need to know in order to thrive in the Fediverse and have joked that I would be happy to be such a guide if I were asked.)
See, alt-right is such a subjective term.
I've seen people say that wearing a hat with "MAGA" on it is alt-right.
I've also seen people say that opinions like "we want an entire race of people locked up and punished" is alt-right as well.
While one is definitively magnitudes worse than the other, they're both put under the banner of "alt-right".
I've seen people say that wearing a hat with "MAGA" on it is alt-right.
I've also seen people say that opinions like "we want an entire race of people locked up and punished" is alt-right as well.
While one is definitively magnitudes worse than the other, they're both put under the banner of "alt-right".
boapnuaput(2)
do you want a safe space on youtube? twitter banned people for saying "learn to code" but not leftists saying they wanted to kill the covington kids. if you think theres no censorship then youre not paying attention.
> I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument.
Because it's a disingenuous argument, and it's always been about:
1. Making one side feel like the victim, which maintains coherence
2. Playing the refs
Because it's a disingenuous argument, and it's always been about:
1. Making one side feel like the victim, which maintains coherence
2. Playing the refs
The persecution complex among predominantly white males right now is high because there's a significant social change occurring that is causing those who've been disadvantaged the same privileges that white males have enjoyed alone for much of recent human history. It's a natural human reaction to care more about loss than to see the potential upside. We've also seen this numerous times before. The rise of Nazism was the natural response to the harsh restrictions of WW1 which is why the Marshall plans included Germany in the rebuilding opportunities.
Many of those on the right address looking for power and utilize this gut reactionary response by those who feel disenfranchised for their own purposes. It's why fighting against a populist like President Trump with facts doesn't work. If reality don't fit the narrative, make a different reality. It's a very effective propaganda technique that usually requires an outside force to break. The US did something similar with the fight against communism and really had a hard time redefining Americanism once the Soviet Union collapsed. That's why the so called war on terror will never end. In order for America to be the good guys there needs to be bad people too. So in order for the alt-right to be the victim they either find villains on the left or they make them up. AOC is a perfect example of a toothless villain. She's a junior congresswomen with no real power, but she's constantly villainized far beyond the risk she poses to anyone on the right. Physically though she embodies the fears of white guys being replaced from their positions of power.
Many of those on the right address looking for power and utilize this gut reactionary response by those who feel disenfranchised for their own purposes. It's why fighting against a populist like President Trump with facts doesn't work. If reality don't fit the narrative, make a different reality. It's a very effective propaganda technique that usually requires an outside force to break. The US did something similar with the fight against communism and really had a hard time redefining Americanism once the Soviet Union collapsed. That's why the so called war on terror will never end. In order for America to be the good guys there needs to be bad people too. So in order for the alt-right to be the victim they either find villains on the left or they make them up. AOC is a perfect example of a toothless villain. She's a junior congresswomen with no real power, but she's constantly villainized far beyond the risk she poses to anyone on the right. Physically though she embodies the fears of white guys being replaced from their positions of power.
> that is causing those who've been disadvantaged the same privileges that white males have enjoyed alone for much of recent human history
No. Black people can't own slaves. They aren't going to get to profit off centuries of colonial oppression. They aren't going to get to be the only enfranchised people in the country.
They won't even get to enjoy the comfortable middle class lifestyle that persisted until the late 20th century.
No. Black people can't own slaves. They aren't going to get to profit off centuries of colonial oppression. They aren't going to get to be the only enfranchised people in the country.
They won't even get to enjoy the comfortable middle class lifestyle that persisted until the late 20th century.
I was trying to limit the context to recent times specially for this reason. You're absolutely correct, they won't get all the rights and privileges that previous people in power had, not should they. And you're correct that they won't receive those rights alone. However they should receive the benefits that they are entitled to by the efforts of their work and their character and the arc of history is slowly bending in that direction Unfortunately none of this means that there won't be an inevitable backlash against those who deserve it the least.
And yet, many SJW's and Berniebros are white dudes... Self-hating, perhaps? Or maybe the whole narrative that "the right is powerful because White guys are furious about having to give up their inherent power!" just doesn't stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. It's blatant propaganda; fake news meant to demonize and discredit conservative thought, even to make it "radioactive" in the eyes of the (largely bandwagoning) general public. And these people have the gall to say that their political opponents are tantamount to Nazis? Sad and despicable!
I mean I'm not saying they're evil, it's just how history works. Those in power object to losing said power.
Edit: Nor was I trying to make the claim that this is limited to any political party. It's a tool commonly used in populism.
Edit: Nor was I trying to make the claim that this is limited to any political party. It's a tool commonly used in populism.
It's interesting you're lumping those two groups together. Generally, it's well-understood in in democratic circles that the so-called "Bernie Bros" are far more preoccupied with issues of economic than social justice, and less concerned with race. They face a good bit of criticism from not just the left, but also the "woke" pro-capitalist centrists on the matter.
I run a Mastodon instance. This morning I blocked Purism's server for openly declaring that they plan to be free-speech absolutists who will not bother with any kind of moderation at all, which my years on the net has made me feel is akin to founding a city and declaring you will not have a sewer. This afternoon I preemptively blocked a couple guesses at what Gab's instance will be named. If and when I hear that Gab's instance is actually running and is using a name that doesn't match my guesses, I'll block that one too.
It's really not a big thing to me. I've been blocking Pleromas run by people with anime girl avatars who like to post swastikas for the entire time I've been running an instance. This is just a bigger one.
Your theory about how this will sort out in terms of federation topology matches mine.
It's really not a big thing to me. I've been blocking Pleromas run by people with anime girl avatars who like to post swastikas for the entire time I've been running an instance. This is just a bigger one.
Your theory about how this will sort out in terms of federation topology matches mine.
davexunit(5)
As much as I hate the bad parts of Gab, I am glad they are standing up to their principles of being a truly free speech social network.
The other social networks just love to censor everybody they disagree with, even a particular orange looking website.
I am also excited and glad they are utilising open source software as well. (This was bound to happen sooner or later) This can make activitypub & decentralised networks mainstream.
The other social networks just love to censor everybody they disagree with, even a particular orange looking website.
I am also excited and glad they are utilising open source software as well. (This was bound to happen sooner or later) This can make activitypub & decentralised networks mainstream.
I don't share any such appreciation for Gab. IMO, "free speech" in this case was a thinly veiled excuse for white supremacism, which has plenty of other homes on the internet. The developers of Gab chose to devote substantial portions of their lives to creating a platform for people who promote ethnic cleansing and the suppression of minorities. I don't think it's possible to do that without your eyes wide open, and I think that makes it a profoundly evil project.
> ..."free speech" in this case is a thin wrapper over white supremacism,
Even though this is your opinion I find this statement extremely ridiculous.
I don't support or agree with their views, but free speech grants them the right to say it and I will defend that right (which includes everyone).
The great thing is that you don't have to hear it, just block them if you don't like it.
Even though this is your opinion I find this statement extremely ridiculous.
I don't support or agree with their views, but free speech grants them the right to say it and I will defend that right (which includes everyone).
The great thing is that you don't have to hear it, just block them if you don't like it.
Yes, yes, we're all familiar with the Patrick Henry quote. If my statement is so ridiculous, then point out why instead of making bald assertions.
I made no argument about the value of free speech. I am arguing that, given the fairly obvious clientele, it is reasonable to assume that principled fealty to free speech was not the driving motivation in Gab's creation. I don't think it's ridiculous to point to the specific content that makes up the majority of Gab and say you would have to be extraordinarily obtuse not to realize what and for whom you were building a social network.
I made no argument about the value of free speech. I am arguing that, given the fairly obvious clientele, it is reasonable to assume that principled fealty to free speech was not the driving motivation in Gab's creation. I don't think it's ridiculous to point to the specific content that makes up the majority of Gab and say you would have to be extraordinarily obtuse not to realize what and for whom you were building a social network.
> I am asserting that, given the fairly obvious clientele, it is reasonable to assume that principled fealty to free speech was not the driving motivation in Gab's creation.
Well, I believe that free speech was the reason for Gab's creation, they were getting censored from other social platforms so they built their own. It just so as happens that over time they have attracted vile users to the platform who have way more unpopular views.
So what are you really trying to say here?
Well, I believe that free speech was the reason for Gab's creation, they were getting censored from other social platforms so they built their own. It just so as happens that over time they have attracted vile users to the platform who have way more unpopular views.
So what are you really trying to say here?
> ...they were getting censored from other social platforms so they built their own. It just so as happens that over time they have attracted vile users to the platform who have way more unpopular views.
My point is that there is not much daylight between the former and the latter. Gab was not created in a vacuum by neutral arbiters of free speech.
My point is that there is not much daylight between the former and the latter. Gab was not created in a vacuum by neutral arbiters of free speech.
> Well, I believe that free speech was the reason for Gab's creation
And it's just a coincidence that the official account pushes anti-Semitism, right? https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384
And it's just a coincidence that the official account pushes anti-Semitism, right? https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384
>it is reasonable to assume that principled fealty to free speech was not the driving motivation in Gab's creation
It is sad that you would like to give up freedom of speech with such weak excuse.
It is sad that you would like to give up freedom of speech with such weak excuse.
your misrepresenting on purpose. they created a platform for free speech. you get the bad with the good. so what? thats not evil.
it is a fact, not an opinion
I’m not saying I disagree, since I haven’t seen any evidence one way or the other, but maybe you or jtr1 could provide some evidence for those who haven’t been following Gab?
A fair request. I did sign up some months ago to see for myself, but you can get a good idea perusing the references on their wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)
as an aside i always find it amusing that agitating for removing freedom from people based on religion, ethnicity or sex is somehow considered an enshrined freedom
but you want to remove freedom from people just for saying something you dont like. thats bad too.
it is not about something i don't like. it is about stopping people from ruining people's lives: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48458850
what does this have to do with anything? censorship doesnt fix this
You're advocating removing freedom from people you don't like. This is, presumably, also an enshrined freedom.
it is not about people i don't like. i don't have any feelings either way about them. it is about stopping people from ruining people's lives: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48458850
it is not about something or someone i don't like. it is about stopping people from ruining people's lives: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48458850
I think it’s important to separate the actions and intents of the company from their users. Any platform that has free speech as a core value will tend to attract objectionable people and content. That wiki page is mostly about the horrible things some of their users say and do.
Elsewhere in the thread, I've posted a link to screenshots of their official Twitter account making anti-Semitic comments. Here's an image of their founder using a white supremacist hand sign: https://web.archive.org/web/20190530190836/https://inshorts....
... The "OK" hand sign?
Did you read the article or even the headline? The ADL literally says it's a trolling gesture, not a white supremacist sign.
You can argue that this type of trolling is bad because helps normalize white supremacy, but that doesn't mean their motivation is actual white supremacy.
You can argue that this type of trolling is bad because helps normalize white supremacy, but that doesn't mean their motivation is actual white supremacy.
[deleted]
The "who to follow" on the left side of the post seems to rotate, but if I go down the list of what I see literally every member boasts some sort of odious point of view:
- @OldEarthNeoFash, whose description literally says they're a Nazi
- @AlexanderVI, who posts about how gay men should not be allowed to be President
- @Reality_and_Truth, whose description boasts about "exposing Leftist scum 300 chars at a time"
- @cashmoneyglock, whose posts reference Stalin "marrying Jewesses" and a conspiracy theory about MLK being a rapist
- @BruceKenneway, whose description references Jews and white genocide
- @AnthonyBoy, whose posts insinuate that Robert Mueller commits bestiality
Try it! I'm sure you'll get a similar collection of terrible people.
Remember, this is apropos of nothing. I don't have a Gab account, so they're not personalizing these for me based on accounts with which I've interacted before. It's just a random sample of people on Gab.
- @OldEarthNeoFash, whose description literally says they're a Nazi
- @AlexanderVI, who posts about how gay men should not be allowed to be President
- @Reality_and_Truth, whose description boasts about "exposing Leftist scum 300 chars at a time"
- @cashmoneyglock, whose posts reference Stalin "marrying Jewesses" and a conspiracy theory about MLK being a rapist
- @BruceKenneway, whose description references Jews and white genocide
- @AnthonyBoy, whose posts insinuate that Robert Mueller commits bestiality
Try it! I'm sure you'll get a similar collection of terrible people.
Remember, this is apropos of nothing. I don't have a Gab account, so they're not personalizing these for me based on accounts with which I've interacted before. It's just a random sample of people on Gab.
Frankly, if you look you can find people equally odious on Twitter as well. but if only people leaning in one direction get deplatformed there, of course they will congregate on a platform where they do not get deplatformed. Both end up as self-perpetuating filter bubbles (although Twitter might be slightly better just because its older and larger).
> Frankly, if you look you can find people equally odious on Twitter as well.
You can, but it's a tiny minority of people on Twitter. When I load this page on Gab, literally every single recommended account is like this. A random sample of Twitter users will be basically the same as a random sample of Internet users and brands; a random sample of Gab users seems to be entirely alt-right, white supremacists and Nazis.
Of course people who tend to get deplatformed will tend to congregate on a platform where they don't. But Gab actively courts this userbase. See for example https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384
You can, but it's a tiny minority of people on Twitter. When I load this page on Gab, literally every single recommended account is like this. A random sample of Twitter users will be basically the same as a random sample of Internet users and brands; a random sample of Gab users seems to be entirely alt-right, white supremacists and Nazis.
Of course people who tend to get deplatformed will tend to congregate on a platform where they don't. But Gab actively courts this userbase. See for example https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384
Same thing -- people calling for odious thing Y (whgich, unlike odious thing X doesn't get them kicked out of Twitter) would not care to go to Gab with its tiny number of users. Of course Gab would court those who might actually be interested in joining.
Not to say that Gab isn't a cesspool, and Mr. Torba, when he shows up here, appears to be a rather unpleasant character, but Gab being full of bad people is a function not only of Gab being bad by definition, but also of bigger players' policies as well.
Not to say that Gab isn't a cesspool, and Mr. Torba, when he shows up here, appears to be a rather unpleasant character, but Gab being full of bad people is a function not only of Gab being bad by definition, but also of bigger players' policies as well.
Sure, granted. But who cares? It doesn't make Gab come off any better. Opportunistic bigotry is just as bad as… well, bigotry.
I'm not saying Andrew Torba shouldn't have built Gab; I am lamenting its existence, insofar as I don't want anyone to be a white supremacist. But white supremacists do exist, and as long as they do they'll make spaces for themselves, whether on Gab or 8chan or some dark corner of Twitter. All we can do is push those spaces as far away as possible.
I'm not saying Andrew Torba shouldn't have built Gab; I am lamenting its existence, insofar as I don't want anyone to be a white supremacist. But white supremacists do exist, and as long as they do they'll make spaces for themselves, whether on Gab or 8chan or some dark corner of Twitter. All we can do is push those spaces as far away as possible.
So, if I were to declare myself an Even supremacist and plan to turn all Whites (and the others, when we get to them) into fertilizer that would be fine?
And in any case I just am not sure if pushing undesirables (especially if it is undesirables only of a certain political bent, but not the others) into some dark corner is a good strategy. Both sides end up in even stronger filter bubbles, and banned people get good recruiting tools and feed theior persec ution complexes -- because the "lamestream media" and "libturds" actually are out to get them.
And in any case I just am not sure if pushing undesirables (especially if it is undesirables only of a certain political bent, but not the others) into some dark corner is a good strategy. Both sides end up in even stronger filter bubbles, and banned people get good recruiting tools and feed theior persec ution complexes -- because the "lamestream media" and "libturds" actually are out to get them.
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its definitely your opinion.
free speech is free speech. that means people say bad things sometime. you know theres a big story on the frontpage right now about china activists being attacked? bet they would like some free speech.
Certainly. And here I am, pointing at some speech and saying "that's bad."
you called it evil because they support free speech. why?
I did not call it evil _because_ they support free speech. I call the specific content of that speech evil, and I call the act of promoting that specific speech evil.
I would call ISIS recruitment videos evil. If someone created a social network for ISIS under the banner of "free speech", I would call their project evil.
I don't in any way apologize for flatly condemning the kind of speech Gab is designed to harbor. And yet I happen to be a pretty big fan of free speech, somehow! If you'd read closely, you might notice I haven't called for the government to shut them down, and suggested that a Mastadon instance might be a good move. There's a case to be made that the Streisand effect means unilaterally banning neo-nazis helps spread their ideas.
In my mind, perhaps it's better to pre-empt their persecution complex by allowing them a space that the rest of us can mute. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that these spaces serve as recruiting grounds for a rising international terrorist movement. That complicates things, and I don't have an easy answer for what should be done.
I would call ISIS recruitment videos evil. If someone created a social network for ISIS under the banner of "free speech", I would call their project evil.
I don't in any way apologize for flatly condemning the kind of speech Gab is designed to harbor. And yet I happen to be a pretty big fan of free speech, somehow! If you'd read closely, you might notice I haven't called for the government to shut them down, and suggested that a Mastadon instance might be a good move. There's a case to be made that the Streisand effect means unilaterally banning neo-nazis helps spread their ideas.
In my mind, perhaps it's better to pre-empt their persecution complex by allowing them a space that the rest of us can mute. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that these spaces serve as recruiting grounds for a rising international terrorist movement. That complicates things, and I don't have an easy answer for what should be done.
Gab is not a free speech social network. Gab is a white supremacy social network. Gab has actively courted white supramcists[0], white supremacists make up the vast majority of their userbase[1].
I understand and respect your deep support of free speech. But please, take a step back here and think about what you are saying you are glad about.
Are you really glad a group of people decided to roll up their sleeves and build a platform for white supremacists? Is that really an admirable use of someone's time, energy, and expertise?
[0] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/30/tech/gab-anti-semitic-speech-...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/10/31/silicon...
I understand and respect your deep support of free speech. But please, take a step back here and think about what you are saying you are glad about.
Are you really glad a group of people decided to roll up their sleeves and build a platform for white supremacists? Is that really an admirable use of someone's time, energy, and expertise?
[0] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/30/tech/gab-anti-semitic-speech-...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/10/31/silicon...
If those people become the majority (which, terrifyingly, no longer seems outside of the realm of possibility), you and those who share your beliefs might become the ones needing the protections of free speech and the ability to circumvent deplatforming.
_Now_ do you see why maintaining free speech protections is important?
_Now_ do you see why maintaining free speech protections is important?
I have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all. It is explicitly not part of their ideology.
In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive.
To be clear, I do not think it should be illegal or impossible to express hateful views. I don't think there needs to be some effort to block their forking of Mastedon (if it were even possible).
I think it _is_ wrong to celebrate a company which trades in hate and has provided a platform for radicalization which has contributed to at least two major terrorist attacks.
I take issue with the sentiment that it is somehow good they are
> "standing up to their principles of being a truly free speech social network"
It's not true that they are a "free speech social network," they are a platform deliberately cultivating hate. And I think it's wrong to give anyone working to promote hate a pat on the back.
Don't hold up Gab as some free speech hero, you're just playing into their narrative.
In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive.
To be clear, I do not think it should be illegal or impossible to express hateful views. I don't think there needs to be some effort to block their forking of Mastedon (if it were even possible).
I think it _is_ wrong to celebrate a company which trades in hate and has provided a platform for radicalization which has contributed to at least two major terrorist attacks.
I take issue with the sentiment that it is somehow good they are
> "standing up to their principles of being a truly free speech social network"
It's not true that they are a "free speech social network," they are a platform deliberately cultivating hate. And I think it's wrong to give anyone working to promote hate a pat on the back.
Don't hold up Gab as some free speech hero, you're just playing into their narrative.
> I have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all. It is explicitly not part of their ideology.
Sure, that isn't unlikely. However, does that make it okay for the left to be the first to disrespect their free speech rights? "Our opponents would oppress at us as soon as they get the chance so we'll do our best to oppress them first"? Clearly, that's not right.
> In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive.
Again, true, the true believers will never be convinced by any amount of debate or evidence. But that tends to be a relatively small group in any movement. It's the undecided silent majority that needs to be kept on your side and taking the moral low road is sure to alienate them, with disastrous consequences.
Sure, that isn't unlikely. However, does that make it okay for the left to be the first to disrespect their free speech rights? "Our opponents would oppress at us as soon as they get the chance so we'll do our best to oppress them first"? Clearly, that's not right.
> In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive.
Again, true, the true believers will never be convinced by any amount of debate or evidence. But that tends to be a relatively small group in any movement. It's the undecided silent majority that needs to be kept on your side and taking the moral low road is sure to alienate them, with disastrous consequences.
> have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all.
This sounds like a defect-defect equilibrium taking shape.
This sounds like a defect-defect equilibrium taking shape.
I tried to find some remotely interesting content on that site, all I found was boomer political rambling and bile.
If they do this, I'll be making sure I blacklist their instances. While there are plenty of free-speech oriented or even right wing mastodon instances, the signal to noise ratio on these is pretty good and there is actually content worth engaging with.
If they do this, I'll be making sure I blacklist their instances. While there are plenty of free-speech oriented or even right wing mastodon instances, the signal to noise ratio on these is pretty good and there is actually content worth engaging with.
> there are plenty of free-speech oriented or even right wing mastodon instances, the signal to noise ratio on these is pretty good and there is actually content worth engaging with.
any recommendations?
any recommendations?
I see a lot of people in my feed from bsd.moe and liberdon.com, I'm on layer8.space at the moment but am considering hosting an instance just for myself.
I feel like a burden being on someone else's server, using their bandwidth.
I feel like a burden being on someone else's server, using their bandwidth.
What's the best way to use that kind of thing? Is there an app that's recommended?
I use Tusky on Android and the web UI for everything else.
Good. This will make an excellent test of the ability of Mastodon servers and users to ostracize malicious actors, and a solid driver for new features in this area of development.
Regardless of how you feel about the Gab folks in particular, this is great news that clearly shows the power of the federated web in enabling, empowering and preserving diverse audiences.
Maybe now they'll stop concern-trolling about the inevitable slippery slope into an Orwellian fascist nightmare the world will descend into every time a site bans them. They have their own playground where they can be as racist and edgy as they want.
Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1357/
Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1357/
That won't happen because the constant alarmism about censorship is part of the appeal. "Your rights are being violated by the Hollywood/feminists/liberal elites! Send me money so I can tell you how to combat this scourge with Logic & Reason (TM)"
People like J Peterson and Sargon could deal with being deplatformed in the way they preach to their disciples, but instead they whine about it while shaking their e-collection boxes.
People like J Peterson and Sargon could deal with being deplatformed in the way they preach to their disciples, but instead they whine about it while shaking their e-collection boxes.
I suspect the type of dismisiveness you show towards large swaths of the populace's opinions contributes to the success of folks like JBP and Sargon
I suspect it does too, but probably for different reasons.
Criticism of "thought leaders" like these guys only strengthens the hold they have among the legions of young people who follow their words like gospel.
Any criticism of these figures for their platitude-heavy content and huckster-style marketing must also be a criticism of their followers as individuals, because they have bought into that mindset wholesale.
Criticism of "thought leaders" like these guys only strengthens the hold they have among the legions of young people who follow their words like gospel.
Any criticism of these figures for their platitude-heavy content and huckster-style marketing must also be a criticism of their followers as individuals, because they have bought into that mindset wholesale.
JBP, at least, generally seems to come off better than the people criticising him.
And young people have rebellious tendencies, they form countercultures. The current world culture tilts to left-progressivism, so there's a right-ish counterculture.
And young people have rebellious tendencies, they form countercultures. The current world culture tilts to left-progressivism, so there's a right-ish counterculture.
The problem is that many look at JBP interacting with clickbait and unethical journalists and conclude that he must be a great and honest thinker in comparison. Actual academics rarely engage with him, and not because they are afraid to or malicious but because he hasn't published much that can even be engaged with outside of psychology. The exception is Žižek, and we all saw how that went for Peterson.
On the contrary, the rise of my dismissiveness comes from the emergence and popularity of grifters like JBP and Sargon, who seem to only favor freedom of speech for bullying, but never seem to protest any actual freedom of speech issues at home or abroad (like Ortega gunning down protesters), in addition to having to listen to his fans parrot a lot of strange claims he had no qualifications to make or relevant knowledge of.
The right to free speech in the US is indeed a specific law with a narrow scope to only limit the US government. This is why people that do end up in court often go the route of using anti-discrimination laws rather then freedom of speech. It has much bigger scope and it can actually demand that a company host people which they politically disagree with.
In EU, if a place cancel a reservation because someone is homosexual then they are likely breaking a human rights law. Anti-discrimination laws covers ideology, political, philosophical, religious and other identities, and showing people the door is often illegal if it done on the grounds of difference in ideology or politics.
In the US I don't know if a hosting company has the same right to show the door to a racist (that follow the law) as a racist hotel owner has the right to show a non-white person the door. I suspect the law does not really distinguish between online and offline so my guess would be that racist hotel owners can discriminate if they wish to not host a customer regardless of reasons.
In EU, if a place cancel a reservation because someone is homosexual then they are likely breaking a human rights law. Anti-discrimination laws covers ideology, political, philosophical, religious and other identities, and showing people the door is often illegal if it done on the grounds of difference in ideology or politics.
In the US I don't know if a hosting company has the same right to show the door to a racist (that follow the law) as a racist hotel owner has the right to show a non-white person the door. I suspect the law does not really distinguish between online and offline so my guess would be that racist hotel owners can discriminate if they wish to not host a customer regardless of reasons.
uh theres a big story right now about china attacking activists. theres a story about google and amazon tracking everything and using facial recognition. everyone freaks out when google builds a china search engine.
but ok, yea its all fake because you think theyre racists. whatever.
but ok, yea its all fake because you think theyre racists. whatever.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They are racists, it is all fake, and even if if it weren't all fake, I wouldn't shed a tear if they came for the racists.
They are racists, it is all fake, and even if if it weren't all fake, I wouldn't shed a tear if they came for the racists.
so people who care about free speech are racists? or do you just throw that word around?
and theyre going to come for you too and youll be shedding a lot of tears then when its too late. its how it goes.
and theyre going to come for you too and youll be shedding a lot of tears then when its too late. its how it goes.
>so people who care about free speech are racists?
Aw. No, racists are racists. Nice try, though.
Keep it up and someday you'll grow up to be a real troll.
>and theyre going to come for you too and youll be shedding a lot of tears then when its too late. its how it goes
Why would people opposed to racists come for me? I'm not a racist.
Aw. No, racists are racists. Nice try, though.
Keep it up and someday you'll grow up to be a real troll.
>and theyre going to come for you too and youll be shedding a lot of tears then when its too late. its how it goes
Why would people opposed to racists come for me? I'm not a racist.
you are a racist though. you cant prove otherwise.
I had heard about Gab but never visited the site before. I just spent 30 seconds perusing the trending feed. I saw the following:
1. a video of a man being shot and killed during an armed robbery 2. 3 anti islam posts 3. the usual pro trump propaganda 4. a meme warning about the evils of feminism urging women to get back to their "place" in the family.
Gab is a festering pile of trash. Anyone responsible for making any technical decisions on it should be ashamed of themselves.
1. a video of a man being shot and killed during an armed robbery 2. 3 anti islam posts 3. the usual pro trump propaganda 4. a meme warning about the evils of feminism urging women to get back to their "place" in the family.
Gab is a festering pile of trash. Anyone responsible for making any technical decisions on it should be ashamed of themselves.
I mean Tor is used for some pretty bad stuff. Much of the dark net, if not most of the dark net is pretty heinous. Definitely worse than Gab. Do you feel similarly about Tor developers?
The way I see it building platforms for detested people is a pretty good canary in the coalmine. If Internet technologies aren't resilient enough to keep the most hated people in the world online, then that's a pretty bad sign that those technologies wouldn't stand up to motivated state actors.
The way I see it building platforms for detested people is a pretty good canary in the coalmine. If Internet technologies aren't resilient enough to keep the most hated people in the world online, then that's a pretty bad sign that those technologies wouldn't stand up to motivated state actors.
Gab specifically isn't a technology though. This article is specifically about the technology Gab is going to use. So I think the more apt comparison is between Tor and Mastodon. Gab is a website in the same that that a website on the dark net is a website- both of which can and should be judged on their merits.
That seems like a rather fragile distinction to draw.
Tor isn't just a software stack and protocol. It's also a service made up of many hundreds of volunteers who agree to relay traffic, blindly, anywhere, despite (a) knowing what kind of traffic they're protecting and (b) having the ability to blacklist destinations. For instance it's common for Tor exits to ban SMTP or Bittorrent ports.
Bear in mind Tor also supports hidden services, and could also choose to blacklist them if they want - the way the protocol works does allow that, and of course they could change the software stack and the nodes listed in their directory services to make such things easier.
So Gab is a service run by a bunch of people that allow stuff pretty liberally, including bad stuff. So is Tor.
Tor isn't just a software stack and protocol. It's also a service made up of many hundreds of volunteers who agree to relay traffic, blindly, anywhere, despite (a) knowing what kind of traffic they're protecting and (b) having the ability to blacklist destinations. For instance it's common for Tor exits to ban SMTP or Bittorrent ports.
Bear in mind Tor also supports hidden services, and could also choose to blacklist them if they want - the way the protocol works does allow that, and of course they could change the software stack and the nodes listed in their directory services to make such things easier.
So Gab is a service run by a bunch of people that allow stuff pretty liberally, including bad stuff. So is Tor.
Tor being a protocol, I think the better analog would be the people developing the "host anything you want here, no limits" servers would be more the type of developers OP was addressing.
[deleted]
I don't like most of the content you mention, but I still don't understand your pro-censorship viewpoint.
What's your goal here? Do you honestly think that preventing these people from having a public voice will make them disappear? Or do you simply want to brush them under the carpet so you can pretend they don't exist?
I think a much better approach is to allow free speech, and to spend some of our time kindly and empathetically trying to understand these people so we can address the underlying issues that cause them to believe what they believe. That's what Martin Luther King did, if you read his more theoretical writings. And I think it's what we should be trying to do today. Gutting free speech isn't the solution.
What's your goal here? Do you honestly think that preventing these people from having a public voice will make them disappear? Or do you simply want to brush them under the carpet so you can pretend they don't exist?
I think a much better approach is to allow free speech, and to spend some of our time kindly and empathetically trying to understand these people so we can address the underlying issues that cause them to believe what they believe. That's what Martin Luther King did, if you read his more theoretical writings. And I think it's what we should be trying to do today. Gutting free speech isn't the solution.
If you read my original comment you'll see I am not actually calling for censorship. I am calling for any developers responsible for providing Gab with technical assistance to re-evaluate what they are doing with their skills. It's a matter of professional ethics and it matters quite a bit to me. If they are helping Gab in any capacity they either agree with the content on it, or are taking a cynical payday. Either way its repulsive and it needs to be called out.
While we are on the subject of censorship: yes people with vile viewpoints exist. Yes they have a right to express those viewpoints. NO a platform does not have to help them spread said viewpoints. I would like to remind you that Gab is a _business_, not a government. They are under no obligation to honor the 1st amendment. It's no different than places like Hacker News which heavily moderates its content. Codes of conduct exist for a reason and it is to protect the vulnerable. If you don't feel that deeply in your bones it's likely because you aren't a member of a demographic that is under threat.
Gab, by its very existence and prominence legitimizes racism, nazism, sexism, violence, etc. It creates a community and a sense of moral righteousness around it. People are _dying_ and the country is on the brink of chaos. We can't ignore this threat any longer. Gab _can_ in fact moderate hate speech on their platform. They just don't either because they believe it or because it's profitable. Either way I hope their business dies and they go broke because what they are doing is wrong.
While we are on the subject of censorship: yes people with vile viewpoints exist. Yes they have a right to express those viewpoints. NO a platform does not have to help them spread said viewpoints. I would like to remind you that Gab is a _business_, not a government. They are under no obligation to honor the 1st amendment. It's no different than places like Hacker News which heavily moderates its content. Codes of conduct exist for a reason and it is to protect the vulnerable. If you don't feel that deeply in your bones it's likely because you aren't a member of a demographic that is under threat.
Gab, by its very existence and prominence legitimizes racism, nazism, sexism, violence, etc. It creates a community and a sense of moral righteousness around it. People are _dying_ and the country is on the brink of chaos. We can't ignore this threat any longer. Gab _can_ in fact moderate hate speech on their platform. They just don't either because they believe it or because it's profitable. Either way I hope their business dies and they go broke because what they are doing is wrong.
> If you read my original comment you'll see I am not actually calling for censorship. I am calling for any developers responsible for providing Gab with technical assistance to re-evaluate what they are doing with their skills. It's a matter of professional ethics and it matters quite a bit to me. If they are helping Gab in any capacity they either agree with the content on it, or are taking a cynical payday. Either way its repulsive and it needs to be called out.
You ARE calling for censorship. It's no less censorship just because it's developers doing the censorship instead of governments.
> While we are on the subject of censorship: yes people with vile viewpoints exist. Yes they have a right to express those viewpoints. NO a platform does not have to help them spread said viewpoints. I would like to remind you that Gab is a _business_, not a government. They are under no obligation to honor the 1st amendment.
The thing about unalienable human rights is that they are UNALIENABLE. The right to free speech doesn't simply go away when you put a business in charge.
I agree that the first amendment doesn't apply to businesses, and this is one of the largest reasons that we should be concerned about the increasing control that businesses have over the most influential of our communications platforms. This how free speech dies--all mainstream communications are moved onto corporate platforms where free speech isn't protected, and then opponents of free speech call for censoring views they disagree with.
You seem to be under the misconception that free speech is only important because of the first amendment, but the opposite is true. The first amendment is only important because it protects free speech, which is what really matters.
> It's no different than places like Hacker News which heavily moderates its content.
It's different because Hacker News purports to be a forum for specific topics, rather than a general communications platform like Gab or Twitter.
> Codes of conduct exist for a reason and it is to protect the vulnerable. If you don't feel that deeply in your bones it's likely because you aren't a member of a demographic that is under threat.
And here we get to the crux of what you completely ignored in my previous post: the censorship you're demanding DOESN'T PROTECT THE VULNERABLE. It just doesn't work. The people who hold racist, nazi, sexist, violent, etc. viewpoints don't simply disappear because you censor them. They still exist, and censoring them merely drives them together, into more unified communities, since they can't talk to anyone else. We lose the opportunity to talk to them, and change their minds. The censorship you're demanding is not the solution to to the division in our culture, it's the CAUSE of the division in our culture.
When you call for censorship, you're opening Pandora's box. Maybe today you can successfully censor Nazis, but only a few short decades ago, Nazis were in power and censoring other people. Censorship doesn't benefit the right ideas, it benefits the ideas that are in power, and the ideas that are in power aren't always right. Before you throw away free speech and call for censorship, consider that free speech allows YOU to say what YOU'RE saying, and in the future it may be YOUR ideas that are censored.
You ARE calling for censorship. It's no less censorship just because it's developers doing the censorship instead of governments.
> While we are on the subject of censorship: yes people with vile viewpoints exist. Yes they have a right to express those viewpoints. NO a platform does not have to help them spread said viewpoints. I would like to remind you that Gab is a _business_, not a government. They are under no obligation to honor the 1st amendment.
The thing about unalienable human rights is that they are UNALIENABLE. The right to free speech doesn't simply go away when you put a business in charge.
I agree that the first amendment doesn't apply to businesses, and this is one of the largest reasons that we should be concerned about the increasing control that businesses have over the most influential of our communications platforms. This how free speech dies--all mainstream communications are moved onto corporate platforms where free speech isn't protected, and then opponents of free speech call for censoring views they disagree with.
You seem to be under the misconception that free speech is only important because of the first amendment, but the opposite is true. The first amendment is only important because it protects free speech, which is what really matters.
> It's no different than places like Hacker News which heavily moderates its content.
It's different because Hacker News purports to be a forum for specific topics, rather than a general communications platform like Gab or Twitter.
> Codes of conduct exist for a reason and it is to protect the vulnerable. If you don't feel that deeply in your bones it's likely because you aren't a member of a demographic that is under threat.
And here we get to the crux of what you completely ignored in my previous post: the censorship you're demanding DOESN'T PROTECT THE VULNERABLE. It just doesn't work. The people who hold racist, nazi, sexist, violent, etc. viewpoints don't simply disappear because you censor them. They still exist, and censoring them merely drives them together, into more unified communities, since they can't talk to anyone else. We lose the opportunity to talk to them, and change their minds. The censorship you're demanding is not the solution to to the division in our culture, it's the CAUSE of the division in our culture.
When you call for censorship, you're opening Pandora's box. Maybe today you can successfully censor Nazis, but only a few short decades ago, Nazis were in power and censoring other people. Censorship doesn't benefit the right ideas, it benefits the ideas that are in power, and the ideas that are in power aren't always right. Before you throw away free speech and call for censorship, consider that free speech allows YOU to say what YOU'RE saying, and in the future it may be YOUR ideas that are censored.
> You ARE calling for censorship.
No I'm not. No amount of caps lock changes that and the entire rest of your argument rests on this point [0].
People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find. Nor do we have any obligation to connect people of like mind. In this specific case I am calling out those developers responsible for helping Gab and telling them I think they are morally repugnant. My stance in the original comment was that of professional ethics. If you help platforms like Gab stay online, I think you should be ashamed.
> And here we get to the crux of what you completely ignored in my previous post: the censorship you're demanding DOESN'T PROTECT THE VULNERABLE.
I didn't ignore your argument. I disagree with it because you are trying to assert a position that I am not taking. De-platforming does work. It's not about preventing someone from saying something. It's about adding friction to their ability to spread that message. Vulnerable communities ask for it all the time. People can say whatever they want it's true but the world is not obligated to amplify that message.
While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?
We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream. I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
No I'm not. No amount of caps lock changes that and the entire rest of your argument rests on this point [0].
People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find. Nor do we have any obligation to connect people of like mind. In this specific case I am calling out those developers responsible for helping Gab and telling them I think they are morally repugnant. My stance in the original comment was that of professional ethics. If you help platforms like Gab stay online, I think you should be ashamed.
> And here we get to the crux of what you completely ignored in my previous post: the censorship you're demanding DOESN'T PROTECT THE VULNERABLE.
I didn't ignore your argument. I disagree with it because you are trying to assert a position that I am not taking. De-platforming does work. It's not about preventing someone from saying something. It's about adding friction to their ability to spread that message. Vulnerable communities ask for it all the time. People can say whatever they want it's true but the world is not obligated to amplify that message.
While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?
We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream. I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
I stand by what I said: you ARE ignoring my core points. If you want to prove otherwise, please provide answers to these simple questions:
1. What do you think happens to racists when they are no longer allowed to talk? Do they suddenly become not racist? Disappear in a puff of smoke?
2. How do you propose we change racists minds if not by talking to them?
3. Do you think corporate platforms will always only make progressive ideas easier to find? Or are you open to the possibility that if we allow companies to pick and choose what speech they make easier to find, they may choose ideas you disagree with to make easier to find?
> People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find.
You're saying people have a right to say what they want, but then you're proposing that Gab not make it easier to find certain messages by not allowing people who say that message to say what they want. So which is it: do people have a right to say what they want, or not?
You just want to say you're pro free speech and anti-censorship, so you're saying "make their message easier to find" instead of "allow them free speech on your platform", but they're the exact same thing. A rose by another name would smell as sweet.
Keep in mind, platforms like Reddit/Twitter/Facebook originally sold themselves as communications platforms. I doubt even you would be okay with telephone companies refusing to connect calls between people they don't like--why is it okay for a newer communications platform to refuse service to people they don't like?
> De-platforming does work.
No, it absolutely does not. When Reddit censored bigots, they just went to Voat, and now they have a community where if they say something reprehensible, nobody downvotes them or counterargues. We've just put them in an echo chamber where they can organize and communicate unchallenged, without hearing any reasonable viewpoints.
Even if every single open-minded person on the planet refused to allow racists to post on their websites, racists would just create their own websites. Do you really think there are no racists or terrorists or anti-vaxxers who are capable of writing a Twitter/Gab clone?
> While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?
> We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream.
Objective truth has NEVER been collectively agreed upon. All the objectionable groups you mention existed before the internet. Crazies have ALWAYS existed.
What's different now is that with increased communication, mixing of communities, and the loss of social inhibitions caused by the anonymity and impersonality of the internet, sane people are suddenly confronted with the craziness that has always existed.
And yes, crazy people are able to communicate with each other in unprecedented ways. But that cat's out of the bag--unless you're proposing that we shut down the entire internet, they're going to be able to communicate, whether it be on Twitter or Mastadon or Gab or some equivalent platform created for racists by racists.
But the flipside is that SANE people are able to communicate with crazies in unprecedented ways. Where previously a racist could live their entire life only talking to their racist family and neighbors, now a person of color from the other side of the world away can call them out when they post something racist on Twitter, and tell them that what they are saying isn't true.
If we push the crazies off mainstream platforms, that doesn't solve the problem--they just go on being crazies. But if we allow them to communicate on mainstream platforms, we get to explain to them why their crazy beliefs are wrong. Over and over again, publicly, so that anyone who comes across bigoted or hateful or otherwise harmful ideas also comes across the truth. It's much more difficult than sweeping racists under the carpet and pretending they don't exist, but it actually stands a chance of changing racists into open-minded people.
> I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.
Let's look at what the status quo is:
Reddit: "You agree not to use any obscene, indecent, or offensive language or to provide to or post on or through the Website any graphics, text, photographs, images, video, audio or other material that is defamatory, abusive, bullying, harassing, racist, hateful, or violent. You agree to refrain from ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, homophobia, and personal attacks when using the Website."
Twitter: "Hateful conduct: You may not promote violence against, threaten, or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability, or serious disease."
Facebook: "We define hate speech as a direct attack on people based on what we call protected characteristics — race, ethnicity, national origin, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, caste, sex, gender, gender identity, and serious disease or disability. We also provide some protections for immigration status. We define attack as violent or dehumanizing speech, statements of inferiority, or calls for exclusion or segregation."
The status quo is already doing exactly what you want, and it's not working. So yes, I agree the status quo is not working.
1. What do you think happens to racists when they are no longer allowed to talk? Do they suddenly become not racist? Disappear in a puff of smoke?
2. How do you propose we change racists minds if not by talking to them?
3. Do you think corporate platforms will always only make progressive ideas easier to find? Or are you open to the possibility that if we allow companies to pick and choose what speech they make easier to find, they may choose ideas you disagree with to make easier to find?
> People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find.
You're saying people have a right to say what they want, but then you're proposing that Gab not make it easier to find certain messages by not allowing people who say that message to say what they want. So which is it: do people have a right to say what they want, or not?
You just want to say you're pro free speech and anti-censorship, so you're saying "make their message easier to find" instead of "allow them free speech on your platform", but they're the exact same thing. A rose by another name would smell as sweet.
Keep in mind, platforms like Reddit/Twitter/Facebook originally sold themselves as communications platforms. I doubt even you would be okay with telephone companies refusing to connect calls between people they don't like--why is it okay for a newer communications platform to refuse service to people they don't like?
> De-platforming does work.
No, it absolutely does not. When Reddit censored bigots, they just went to Voat, and now they have a community where if they say something reprehensible, nobody downvotes them or counterargues. We've just put them in an echo chamber where they can organize and communicate unchallenged, without hearing any reasonable viewpoints.
Even if every single open-minded person on the planet refused to allow racists to post on their websites, racists would just create their own websites. Do you really think there are no racists or terrorists or anti-vaxxers who are capable of writing a Twitter/Gab clone?
> While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?
> We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream.
Objective truth has NEVER been collectively agreed upon. All the objectionable groups you mention existed before the internet. Crazies have ALWAYS existed.
What's different now is that with increased communication, mixing of communities, and the loss of social inhibitions caused by the anonymity and impersonality of the internet, sane people are suddenly confronted with the craziness that has always existed.
And yes, crazy people are able to communicate with each other in unprecedented ways. But that cat's out of the bag--unless you're proposing that we shut down the entire internet, they're going to be able to communicate, whether it be on Twitter or Mastadon or Gab or some equivalent platform created for racists by racists.
But the flipside is that SANE people are able to communicate with crazies in unprecedented ways. Where previously a racist could live their entire life only talking to their racist family and neighbors, now a person of color from the other side of the world away can call them out when they post something racist on Twitter, and tell them that what they are saying isn't true.
If we push the crazies off mainstream platforms, that doesn't solve the problem--they just go on being crazies. But if we allow them to communicate on mainstream platforms, we get to explain to them why their crazy beliefs are wrong. Over and over again, publicly, so that anyone who comes across bigoted or hateful or otherwise harmful ideas also comes across the truth. It's much more difficult than sweeping racists under the carpet and pretending they don't exist, but it actually stands a chance of changing racists into open-minded people.
> I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.
Let's look at what the status quo is:
Reddit: "You agree not to use any obscene, indecent, or offensive language or to provide to or post on or through the Website any graphics, text, photographs, images, video, audio or other material that is defamatory, abusive, bullying, harassing, racist, hateful, or violent. You agree to refrain from ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, homophobia, and personal attacks when using the Website."
Twitter: "Hateful conduct: You may not promote violence against, threaten, or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability, or serious disease."
Facebook: "We define hate speech as a direct attack on people based on what we call protected characteristics — race, ethnicity, national origin, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, caste, sex, gender, gender identity, and serious disease or disability. We also provide some protections for immigration status. We define attack as violent or dehumanizing speech, statements of inferiority, or calls for exclusion or segregation."
The status quo is already doing exactly what you want, and it's not working. So yes, I agree the status quo is not working.
Theres that caps lock again...
1. Of course not. I am not an idiot. Fringe viewpoints belong on the fringes. It's why they are called that.
2. You don't and can't. It's been shown that when they do change their minds it's often through indirect means.
3. A company has a right to do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. I am saying they should make better choices and shame on the ones that don't.
This argument has gotten circular and pointless. The tone of your responses has gotten frankly combative and rude and your counter argument is based upon a false premise. I've clarified my original intent as much as I care to. If this is how you engage with those that you disagree with I would encourage you to find a better approach. I am out of this conversation.
1. Of course not. I am not an idiot. Fringe viewpoints belong on the fringes. It's why they are called that.
2. You don't and can't. It's been shown that when they do change their minds it's often through indirect means.
3. A company has a right to do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. I am saying they should make better choices and shame on the ones that don't.
This argument has gotten circular and pointless. The tone of your responses has gotten frankly combative and rude and your counter argument is based upon a false premise. I've clarified my original intent as much as I care to. If this is how you engage with those that you disagree with I would encourage you to find a better approach. I am out of this conversation.
> Theres that caps lock again...
I capitalized two words in my entire post, for emphasis to make the meaning clearer. I'm not sure what your objection to this is.
> 1. Of course not. I am not an idiot. Fringe viewpoints belong on the fringes. It's why they are called that.
Okay, so that's a straightforward admission that you're demanding companies do something that doesn't create the change you're looking for.
> 2. You don't and can't. It's been shown that when they do change their minds it's often through indirect means.
I think it's been shown that it's difficult, not that it's impossible.
> 3. A company has a right to do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. I am saying they should make better choices and shame on the ones that don't.
Okay, but I'm saying that the choices you're shaming them for are the better choices.
> This argument has gotten circular and pointless. The tone of your responses has gotten frankly combative and rude and your counter argument is based upon a false premise. I've clarified my original intent as much as I care to. If this is how you engage with those that you disagree with I would encourage you to find a better approach. I am out of this conversation.
I don't think I'm being combative and rude. Every step of the way I've attempted to attack your assertions rather than attacking you personally. You have not given me the same courtesy.
This reaction is consistent with my assertion that your actual position is just to avoiding people who you disagree with, rather than actually creating any change.
I capitalized two words in my entire post, for emphasis to make the meaning clearer. I'm not sure what your objection to this is.
> 1. Of course not. I am not an idiot. Fringe viewpoints belong on the fringes. It's why they are called that.
Okay, so that's a straightforward admission that you're demanding companies do something that doesn't create the change you're looking for.
> 2. You don't and can't. It's been shown that when they do change their minds it's often through indirect means.
I think it's been shown that it's difficult, not that it's impossible.
> 3. A company has a right to do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. I am saying they should make better choices and shame on the ones that don't.
Okay, but I'm saying that the choices you're shaming them for are the better choices.
> This argument has gotten circular and pointless. The tone of your responses has gotten frankly combative and rude and your counter argument is based upon a false premise. I've clarified my original intent as much as I care to. If this is how you engage with those that you disagree with I would encourage you to find a better approach. I am out of this conversation.
I don't think I'm being combative and rude. Every step of the way I've attempted to attack your assertions rather than attacking you personally. You have not given me the same courtesy.
This reaction is consistent with my assertion that your actual position is just to avoiding people who you disagree with, rather than actually creating any change.
Every time someone sets out to create a completely unmoderated free speech platform, it immediately becomes an object lesson in why people moderate platforms.
Why do you think it's unmoderated? I saw this same statement in another comment and pulled up their guidelines: https://gab.com/about/guidelines. Essentially they aim to moderate according to US law
It's not literally unmoderated, if you want to nitpick. But it's as unmoderated as it can be and avoid major legal troubles.
That's my point. Minimally-moderated free speech zones always seem to go septic almost immediately.
That's my point. Minimally-moderated free speech zones always seem to go septic almost immediately.
I guess Gab doesn't really support free speech after all...
Not sure exactly what you mean by this
They censor speech in order to conform to US law, which means they don't support free speech. They cannot as a platform both support free speech and practice censorship.
Speech there is free-er than on twitter.
Which is odd, because in every other instance with every other platform, any censorship no matter how benign is denounced as a slippery slope towards an inevitable and irreversible Orwellian nightmare dystopia. I guess Gab is the exception to the rule for some reason.
Was that censorship in order to conform to US law? If not, sorry but you're comparing apples to oranges.
Yes. Abridgement of speech in any form is censorship. In this case, the speech of people who want to discuss activities the US government deems illegal is being censored.
Censorship can be (and in the most heinous cases, is) compelled by a government, and can even arguably serve the public good, as is often argued with hate speech laws, or (less controversially) with laws against libel and slander. But as far as free speech is concerned, all censorship is equally dangerous.
It's hypocrisy for defenders of Gab to complain about platform owners and businesses de-platforming them, while accepting Gab doing the same.
Censorship can be (and in the most heinous cases, is) compelled by a government, and can even arguably serve the public good, as is often argued with hate speech laws, or (less controversially) with laws against libel and slander. But as far as free speech is concerned, all censorship is equally dangerous.
It's hypocrisy for defenders of Gab to complain about platform owners and businesses de-platforming them, while accepting Gab doing the same.
>> Was that censorship in order to conform to US law?
>Yes. Abridgement of speech in any form is censorship.
That wasn't the question asked.
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."
The question was whether the other examples were compelled by government law. That puts them in a different category. Unless you would like to argue that the other censorship was performed to keep the organizers out of prison, your argument falls flat.
>Yes. Abridgement of speech in any form is censorship.
That wasn't the question asked.
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."
The question was whether the other examples were compelled by government law. That puts them in a different category. Unless you would like to argue that the other censorship was performed to keep the organizers out of prison, your argument falls flat.
That's because the first adopters of an unmoderated platforms are those who were kicked out from the moderated platforms, whether rightfully or wrongly.
Indeed, many settlements in the yesteryears were founded by outlaws and dissidents (also see: the Pilgrims and Mormon settlement of Utah)
Indeed, many settlements in the yesteryears were founded by outlaws and dissidents (also see: the Pilgrims and Mormon settlement of Utah)
So what does it say that unmoderated platforms always seem to become sinkholes of bigotry?
Or are you saying that, like the Pilgrims, they will eventually transmute themselves into something less unpleasant if left alone? That's stretching the metaphor a bit far, I think.
Or are you saying that, like the Pilgrims, they will eventually transmute themselves into something less unpleasant if left alone? That's stretching the metaphor a bit far, I think.
> So what does it say that unmoderated platforms always seem to become sinkholes of bigotry?
They don't become that. Or rather this is orthogonal to moderation.
They don't become that. Or rather this is orthogonal to moderation.
Voat and Gab seem to have done. Which ones haven't?
The way it seems to work is that unmoderated forums attract the toxic bigots that aren't allowed to speak their minds elsewhere, and they attack anyone who disagrees with them until most of those people get tired of it and go elsewhere, leaving the forum to the jerks. (Or else the owners have second thoughts and start moderating.)
It happens to any unmoderated forum that gets large and popular enough.
The way it seems to work is that unmoderated forums attract the toxic bigots that aren't allowed to speak their minds elsewhere, and they attack anyone who disagrees with them until most of those people get tired of it and go elsewhere, leaving the forum to the jerks. (Or else the owners have second thoughts and start moderating.)
It happens to any unmoderated forum that gets large and popular enough.
But bigots are allowed to speak their minds elsewhere, in many many places, especially in private, hidden from people who don't like them. They don't naturally gravitate to any place that lets them spread their ideas.
What I've seen happens is different, no actual genuine bigotry, but some organized effort to spread hateful propaganda and moderators not banning any of that, taking sides, especially when the organized effort comes from the government and is supported by mainstream government propaganda, so the moderators are naturally conflicted. Owners, moderators sometimes realize it's hurting the site, but still don't like to compromise on their views and eventually ban entire topics, not hate, personal attacks or anything like that and still being soft to the views they share even if they are against new rules.
What I've seen happens is different, no actual genuine bigotry, but some organized effort to spread hateful propaganda and moderators not banning any of that, taking sides, especially when the organized effort comes from the government and is supported by mainstream government propaganda, so the moderators are naturally conflicted. Owners, moderators sometimes realize it's hurting the site, but still don't like to compromise on their views and eventually ban entire topics, not hate, personal attacks or anything like that and still being soft to the views they share even if they are against new rules.
> They don't naturally gravitate to any place that lets them spread their ideas.
Why wouldn't they? Everyone else does, you and me included.
Voat was a tiny site of 30,000 users in April 2015. Two months later, Reddit banned r/ShitN*ggersSay, and Voat's user base exploded. That was four years ago. Go take a look at the front page of https://voat.co/ right now. Don't do it at work, though.
Why wouldn't they? Everyone else does, you and me included.
Voat was a tiny site of 30,000 users in April 2015. Two months later, Reddit banned r/ShitN*ggersSay, and Voat's user base exploded. That was four years ago. Go take a look at the front page of https://voat.co/ right now. Don't do it at work, though.
The moment I clicked on this link, without even browsing, I was greeted with a recommendation to follow an account with a racial slur in the name. No thanks.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Will you defend my right to distribute IP I don't own? Or to vote if I am a felon? Or to share state secrets? Or to defraud people or slander people?
Do you believe that if the people on gab became state leaders that they'd protect your right to dissent?
Do you believe that if the people on gab became state leaders that they'd protect your right to dissent?
There are exceptions to freedom of speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...; some of the things on your list are on this and hence do not fall under free speech. Also, note that I don't necessarily agree with all of these exceptions (for example, my personal opinions to your questions tends to lean towards "yes, in many cases" regardless of their legality. In this case I would instead be fighting for your actions to become protected under free speech).
None of the things you mentioned are "rights", that's just muddling the language. Freedom of speech is a capital-R Right.
GP isn't recommending that congress ban Gab. They're just using their own free speech to condemn it.
It's not nearly cut and dry as this quote as defining what "right to say it" means in the age of the internet is a massive open question.
The right to say something is different than people giving material support to it. E.g., I will defend your legal right stand on the corner with a pro-holocaust placard. But anybody printing those placards or otherwise helping you is an asshole. I will happily tell them so, and I will refuse to do business with them. That's me exercising my rights of freedom of speech and freedom of association.
Freedom of speech isn't freedom from criticism. And it's also not freedom from any other lawful reaction. Anybody helping with Gab richly deserves criticism and shunning in the technical community.
Freedom of speech isn't freedom from criticism. And it's also not freedom from any other lawful reaction. Anybody helping with Gab richly deserves criticism and shunning in the technical community.
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Since we're doing quotes:
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Hate speech should not be allowed a safe haven. Gab is a business and, as such, is not required to adhere to the first amendment.
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Hate speech should not be allowed a safe haven. Gab is a business and, as such, is not required to adhere to the first amendment.
>Gab is a business and, as such, is not required to adhere to the first amendment.
Why shouldn't businesses be required to adhere to the First Amendment if they function as the modern public square? The only reason they get out of that requirement is Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act, a law that exists to make sure that websites such as Facebook can't be held liable for how they moderate their site provided its content remains within US law.
This is the definition of privatizing gains, socializing losses.
>First they came for the [people most don't like], then they came for the [progressively larger fractions of the population]
This is why we keep the Overton window focused on scoundrels, like we are now. It never stops just with them.
Why shouldn't businesses be required to adhere to the First Amendment if they function as the modern public square? The only reason they get out of that requirement is Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act, a law that exists to make sure that websites such as Facebook can't be held liable for how they moderate their site provided its content remains within US law.
This is the definition of privatizing gains, socializing losses.
>First they came for the [people most don't like], then they came for the [progressively larger fractions of the population]
This is why we keep the Overton window focused on scoundrels, like we are now. It never stops just with them.
The people who post those things also use the internet, email, chat apps, social media and everything else. At some point you have to accept that people can say and do what they want and only they are responsible for it.
Gab is no different than any other social media site in that what you see is a function of who you follow, but gab has no moderation at all so you will see things you don’t like more often. It is what it is, but it always seems strange to me to blame the platform for its users.
Gab is no different than any other social media site in that what you see is a function of who you follow, but gab has no moderation at all so you will see things you don’t like more often. It is what it is, but it always seems strange to me to blame the platform for its users.
> Gab is no different than any other social media site in that what you see is a function of who you follow
> At some point you have to accept that people can say and do what they want and only they are responsible for it.
I could not disagree with you more. It is very different and they are known as a haven for some of the vilest viewpoints out there. These fringe viewpoints reach a larger audience and bad things happen. Literally every social media platform of any scale is grappling with this problem. Since, as you say, Gab has no moderation, this is what you get.
It's very easy to just throw your hands up and yell "freedom" with this stuff but I'd be willing to bet you aren't part of a demographic that gets regularly demonized in these corners of the internet. There are stakes. It matters that things like this get called out for what they are.
> At some point you have to accept that people can say and do what they want and only they are responsible for it.
I could not disagree with you more. It is very different and they are known as a haven for some of the vilest viewpoints out there. These fringe viewpoints reach a larger audience and bad things happen. Literally every social media platform of any scale is grappling with this problem. Since, as you say, Gab has no moderation, this is what you get.
It's very easy to just throw your hands up and yell "freedom" with this stuff but I'd be willing to bet you aren't part of a demographic that gets regularly demonized in these corners of the internet. There are stakes. It matters that things like this get called out for what they are.
It's incorrect to state they have no moderation; they moderate in accordance with US law IIRC. Their policy is detailed here: https://gab.com/about/guidelines
The only difference you stated is what I said: Gab doesn't actively moderate, and so the discussions there are more fringe but also more free.
What's wrong with freedom? Free speech is a right and this is a platform that guarantees it as much as possible. If you don't want that then you have the right to not use it. I think you'd be surprised at the speech that people use around the world, let alone the actions that are committed, if you think Gab is the worst out there.
What's wrong with freedom? Free speech is a right and this is a platform that guarantees it as much as possible. If you don't want that then you have the right to not use it. I think you'd be surprised at the speech that people use around the world, let alone the actions that are committed, if you think Gab is the worst out there.
OK, I'm yelling freedom. I'm also a straight white man, which is a demographic I've seen be demonised pretty regularly on all major social networks and many major newspapers. Plenty of example of such hatred on Twitter; just ask Sarah Jeong.
A part of me feels it'd be nice if people who broadcast their love of cruelty to white men got banned from Twitter and refused employment at the New York Times. But sadly, I know a Twitter ban wouldn't stop Jeong being a misandrist. She picked up those ideas from various places and being booted onto some fringe website wouldn't change her views.
A part of me feels it'd be nice if people who broadcast their love of cruelty to white men got banned from Twitter and refused employment at the New York Times. But sadly, I know a Twitter ban wouldn't stop Jeong being a misandrist. She picked up those ideas from various places and being booted onto some fringe website wouldn't change her views.
The darkness is only ever undone by shining a light. By all means, people of reasonable sense should take a moment to look at Gab and realize what counter-factual nonsense it is, because banning it or censoring it will only make it more powerful.
All that does is create a filter bubbles. On subreddits like the_donald, cringeanarchy and others that slowly turned into hate-filled cesspools, there have been users who had a bout of self-realization and left the sub.
Over time, there's a larger exodus of regular people, leaving only the crazies talking to each other.
Over time, there's a larger exodus of regular people, leaving only the crazies talking to each other.
> Over time, there's a larger exodus of regular people, leaving only the crazies talking to each other.
That's how it's supposed to work. At the end of the day, there's a nonzero amount of people who believe this nonsense, and reaching them is a different set of problems (Education? Therapy?) but getting the vast majority to abandon it is sufficient.
That's how it's supposed to work. At the end of the day, there's a nonzero amount of people who believe this nonsense, and reaching them is a different set of problems (Education? Therapy?) but getting the vast majority to abandon it is sufficient.
Yeah... I think we need to teach these people the error of their ways. Maybe we should have forcible re-education therapy- to help them get better.
We could put them into re-education camps and have them sing communist songs while they break rocks and renounce their, oh, wait, sorry, wrong regime.
That's a common claim, but I've seen precious little evidence for it. For decades US Nazis and other loons were justifiably obscure. But the rise of the Internet, which enabled all sorts of connection, also enabled our country's worst to more easily connect, network, and recruit. A good book on the topic is Neiwart's "Alt-America", written by a journalist who studied American white supremacists starting in the 1980s.
As a counterpoint, just recently we saw Tommy Robinson, far right activist and repeat felon, get crushed in the European elections. Why did fail? He himself says social media bans were the reason: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/european-elec...
Deplatforming works. If we need people to understand awful people and awful ideas, history provides us with plenty of examples. Similarly, if we want people to understand tigers, we don't just turn tigers loose in the classroom. We read books, we see videos, maybe we visit a zoo.
As a counterpoint, just recently we saw Tommy Robinson, far right activist and repeat felon, get crushed in the European elections. Why did fail? He himself says social media bans were the reason: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/european-elec...
Deplatforming works. If we need people to understand awful people and awful ideas, history provides us with plenty of examples. Similarly, if we want people to understand tigers, we don't just turn tigers loose in the classroom. We read books, we see videos, maybe we visit a zoo.
Deplatforming is like trying to cure cancer with an axe. Even when you have a temporary win, it's at a terrible and horrible cost.
Plenty of folks have tried to ban history books too.
Plenty of folks have tried to ban history books too.
Nobody is talking about banning history books about Nazis. They're not even talking about about preventing Nazis from speaking. They're just choosing to exercise their freedom of association and not provide a platform for Nazis, the same way they boot harassers and spammers. And the same way that publishers have for centuries declined to publish works they don't want to stand behind.
You can handwave all you like about the (vague, unspecified) horrible cost. But unless you have clear, specific harms to weigh against the actual harm caused by Nazis, you're just blowing smoke.
You can handwave all you like about the (vague, unspecified) horrible cost. But unless you have clear, specific harms to weigh against the actual harm caused by Nazis, you're just blowing smoke.
> You can handwave all you like about the (vague, unspecified) horrible cost.
There is a place on Earth where opinions deemed to be bad are vigilantly monitored for and instantly deplatformed: The People's Republic of China. Is that truly the future you wish for?
Reading these posts from the modern left is ghastly to those of us who remain old school liberals. To defeat their opponents and prevent them from crushing the human rights of innocents, the modern left has become willing themselves to crush various other human rights that they deem unimportant. Thus we see Nietzsche spake truly: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."
There is a place on Earth where opinions deemed to be bad are vigilantly monitored for and instantly deplatformed: The People's Republic of China. Is that truly the future you wish for?
Reading these posts from the modern left is ghastly to those of us who remain old school liberals. To defeat their opponents and prevent them from crushing the human rights of innocents, the modern left has become willing themselves to crush various other human rights that they deem unimportant. Thus we see Nietzsche spake truly: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."
Sure, and I agree the government shouldn't have that power. Duh.
I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. And also that citizens should be able to criticize those who do. My position here is consistently pro-freedom. Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association.
Note also that actual Chinese people think your position, that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting: https://twitter.com/jackiehluo/status/1134038887893016577
I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. And also that citizens should be able to criticize those who do. My position here is consistently pro-freedom. Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association.
Note also that actual Chinese people think your position, that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting: https://twitter.com/jackiehluo/status/1134038887893016577
> I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. ... Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association.
The analogy with Nietzsche's quote gets even closer. Much the same pious rhetoric about free association was once used by your opponents to defend their denial of service to various racial and religious groups. It took years of activism to get legislation that recognized that freedom of association had to be limited to stop discrimination against protected classes. Consider that California has recently enacted legislation that recognizes political affiliation as a protected class in the workplace; that is the spirit and philosophy of liberalism.
And, for the record, no, no one should want to provide service to Nazis or other hate groups. But once denying services to groups becomes normalized as a political weapon, we are pretty much guaranteed that it will eventually be misused.
> ...that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting
I note that you have deftly slipped in the word "criticism" here when the topic was deplatforming. Criticism is, of course, not equivalent to what the PRC does but deplatforming most assuredly is.
The analogy with Nietzsche's quote gets even closer. Much the same pious rhetoric about free association was once used by your opponents to defend their denial of service to various racial and religious groups. It took years of activism to get legislation that recognized that freedom of association had to be limited to stop discrimination against protected classes. Consider that California has recently enacted legislation that recognizes political affiliation as a protected class in the workplace; that is the spirit and philosophy of liberalism.
And, for the record, no, no one should want to provide service to Nazis or other hate groups. But once denying services to groups becomes normalized as a political weapon, we are pretty much guaranteed that it will eventually be misused.
> ...that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting
I note that you have deftly slipped in the word "criticism" here when the topic was deplatforming. Criticism is, of course, not equivalent to what the PRC does but deplatforming most assuredly is.
>Why did fail? He himself says social media bans were the reason.
Politician blames everything but his own politics for his failure to get elected. News at 11.
>For decades US Nazis and other loons were justifiably obscure. But the rise of the Internet, which enabled all sorts of connection, also enabled our country's worst to more easily connect, network, and recruit.
And yet the number of race riots and violent crime has fallen drastically since the 1980s, even with the rise of the Internet. LA hasn't had a repeat of 1992 yet. There is no Unabomber trying to spread their manifesto and the number of terror attacks in the Western world has subsided dramatically (there are no Troubles in Ireland, terrorists aren't taking over the Olympics, etc.), even though the knowledge to make explosives and sorts of manuals to commit those crimes are more available than ever before. OWS never got off the ground, even with Internet support; it's no surprise that more unpopular groups with far smaller membership aren't getting a huge benefit from it either.
Even if hate crimes are on the rise because the Internet exists, the correlation is small enough to be trivial because the factors contributing to the massive decline in crime utterly dominate them. Maybe we should be focused on keeping those going rather than jumping to conclusions.
Besides, if the Nazis come, they'll be voted in overwhelmingly due to an utter failure of economic conditions. Limits on what such a government can do that can't be easily sold by a society, like freedom of speech, are the best protection against such a thing should it ever actually happen.
Politician blames everything but his own politics for his failure to get elected. News at 11.
>For decades US Nazis and other loons were justifiably obscure. But the rise of the Internet, which enabled all sorts of connection, also enabled our country's worst to more easily connect, network, and recruit.
And yet the number of race riots and violent crime has fallen drastically since the 1980s, even with the rise of the Internet. LA hasn't had a repeat of 1992 yet. There is no Unabomber trying to spread their manifesto and the number of terror attacks in the Western world has subsided dramatically (there are no Troubles in Ireland, terrorists aren't taking over the Olympics, etc.), even though the knowledge to make explosives and sorts of manuals to commit those crimes are more available than ever before. OWS never got off the ground, even with Internet support; it's no surprise that more unpopular groups with far smaller membership aren't getting a huge benefit from it either.
Even if hate crimes are on the rise because the Internet exists, the correlation is small enough to be trivial because the factors contributing to the massive decline in crime utterly dominate them. Maybe we should be focused on keeping those going rather than jumping to conclusions.
Besides, if the Nazis come, they'll be voted in overwhelmingly due to an utter failure of economic conditions. Limits on what such a government can do that can't be easily sold by a society, like freedom of speech, are the best protection against such a thing should it ever actually happen.
Experts who study the topic make pretty clear that this is a problem. That you, an anonymous person on the internet, believe otherwise, is not much in the way of evidence.
It's also ridiculous that you conflate the 1992 riots (which were a spontaneous reaction to police violence) with the sort of things that Nazis would like to get up to. It's even more ridiculous that you ignore things like the Charlottesville car attack, the Isla Vista killings, or the Christchurch mosque shootings, all of which were by ideologues radicalized on the Internet. Ridiculous and telling.
It's also ridiculous that you conflate the 1992 riots (which were a spontaneous reaction to police violence) with the sort of things that Nazis would like to get up to. It's even more ridiculous that you ignore things like the Charlottesville car attack, the Isla Vista killings, or the Christchurch mosque shootings, all of which were by ideologues radicalized on the Internet. Ridiculous and telling.
You are missing a lot of understanding not just on the initial cause of the 92 riots but the effects including racial violence - which is exactly the sort of thing Nazis would get up to.
Can you quote some experts? And, preferably not some far right quack blaming twitter for him losing.
Likewise, you seem to be caught up in some epiphenomenon issues - you blame the internet for these attacks yet similar attacks and much worse ones preceeded the internet. Therefore deplatforming is a red herring, you're literally just using tragic attacks to push deplatforming messages you disagree with - and I don't like those messages either, but censorship isn't the answer.
Can you quote some experts? And, preferably not some far right quack blaming twitter for him losing.
Likewise, you seem to be caught up in some epiphenomenon issues - you blame the internet for these attacks yet similar attacks and much worse ones preceeded the internet. Therefore deplatforming is a red herring, you're literally just using tragic attacks to push deplatforming messages you disagree with - and I don't like those messages either, but censorship isn't the answer.
Your handwaving on the Rodney King riots is unpersuasive. I already pointed people at an expert: David Neiwert, and in particular his book Alt-America. And your logic is very poor. By it, we could also prove that vaccines don't do anything, because clearly we had diseases both before and after their invention.
So as mentioned in my bio, I think you've used up your ration of my time. You'll have to carry on in your support of violent white supremacists without me.
So as mentioned in my bio, I think you've used up your ration of my time. You'll have to carry on in your support of violent white supremacists without me.
This is a good way to put it. Gab and its sort come from a perspective that putting hungry tigers with kittens lets the kittens teach the tigers not to eat them.
Absolutely. And that reminds me of a favorite cartoon: https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/status/1031008855210123264?l...
So American firms are guilty of foreign interference in elections now, are they? Oh the irony.
I'm sure you know this already, but declining to serve some users is not on its own interfering in foreign elections.
Those politicians disagree! This seems a rather tortuous definition of "interfere" regardless. Censorship is ok, speech isn't ok?
Freedom of association means that businesses can generally serve who they want. Declining to serve spammers is not "interfering in foreign commerce". Declining to serve abusive jerks is not "interfering in foreign elections".
Freedom of speech is not a right to a platform. Freedom of speech also isn't the freedom of consequences from one's speech. I'm free to say what I want. Other people are free to, based on that speech, decide I'm an asshole and that they don't want anything to do with me.
Freedom of speech is not a right to a platform. Freedom of speech also isn't the freedom of consequences from one's speech. I'm free to say what I want. Other people are free to, based on that speech, decide I'm an asshole and that they don't want anything to do with me.
You just shifted the goalposts on a massive scale. You weren't talking about "abusive jerks" were you? You were talking about actual British citizens who ran for election, which makes them politicians. Whether you like them or not is irrelevant - if "abusive jerk" was the bar, no politician at all could use social media, as there'd be a significant number of people who felt that way for all of them.
In practice I can see that you're fully in support of censoring politicians you disagree with, whilst allowing those you support free reign. That's an exceptionally dangerous path. You certainly cannot hold that view and also make arguments about "foreign interference in elections" being bad - beyond the total absence of proof around what you're thinking of (Russia), Facebook blocking local politicians is by any definition a foreign company interfering in local elections. The fact that you support the move because it's against people you dislike is irrelevant for avoiding a charge of hypocrisy.
In practice I can see that you're fully in support of censoring politicians you disagree with, whilst allowing those you support free reign. That's an exceptionally dangerous path. You certainly cannot hold that view and also make arguments about "foreign interference in elections" being bad - beyond the total absence of proof around what you're thinking of (Russia), Facebook blocking local politicians is by any definition a foreign company interfering in local elections. The fact that you support the move because it's against people you dislike is irrelevant for avoiding a charge of hypocrisy.
I mean, the last time Nazi's came to the front, darkness was undone by carpet bombing and years of grueling war.
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Seems like Indian Twitter. Replace Trump with Modi. Indian Twitter uses Hindi language to escape notice and censorship. Worst posts fester there.
Fortunately there are more heavily moderated alternatives available to you.
Most HN posts:
HN users hate internet controlled and censored by governments or corporations
This post: HN users hate it when things they don't like manage to get around corporate and government censorship
This post: HN users hate it when things they don't like manage to get around corporate and government censorship
Maybe there's a selection effect on who comments on the thread? People who know and heavily dislike Gab already might be more motivated, when scrolling past the thread, to comment on it.
It's different people. You might as well complain about the human race this way.
lol and another big story is talking about china attacking activists and everyones freaking out. people who want to censor are the worst.
And they're such losers too. They just downvote because they can't even present a counterargument.
Absolutely.
>Moving to the ActivityPub protocol as our base allows us to get into mobile App Stores without even having to submit and get approval of our own apps, whether Apple and Google like it or not
They also had the option of creating an ActivityPub compatible API, no? But yes I guess it's easier this way.
Having said that I wonder if they'll allow federation to happen. Most Mastodon instances restrict and censor speech so they will probably add Gab to the blocklist immediately but it would be cool if they could federate with other free speech instances. But then, what would be the point of using Gab instead of just other Mastodon instance?
They also had the option of creating an ActivityPub compatible API, no? But yes I guess it's easier this way.
Having said that I wonder if they'll allow federation to happen. Most Mastodon instances restrict and censor speech so they will probably add Gab to the blocklist immediately but it would be cool if they could federate with other free speech instances. But then, what would be the point of using Gab instead of just other Mastodon instance?
Deciding what content is allowed on your private platform is not censorship. The platform owner is exercising their own form of speech.
Incorrect.
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by a government[5], private institutions, and corporations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by a government[5], private institutions, and corporations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
I am not required to host your speech on my platform. The only free speech protection that is guaranteed in the United States is from the government stifling a citizen's speech and even that is fairly limited with free speech overridden by safety and security concerns on a fairly regular basis. That a particular platform doesn't want your speech is their right under their ability to speak. You cannot be forced to advocate a position you do not agree with.
You're conflating the definition of the word "censorship" with the legal protections of the First Amendment. They're too separate concepts.
That's not what he's saying. You're allowed to censor people on your platform.
I like how the "private institutions, and corporations" part doesn't actually have a citation associated with it.
Privatized censorship is legal in the US, but it is still censorship.
For example, the MPAA was formed because the movie industry felt it was better to self-censor than to have the government censor them.
If your movie contains anything the censors don’t approve, then it will not get an R rating, and will not be distributed to theaters, etc.
They even censor political speech sometimes: https://boingboing.net/2007/12/20/mpaa-censors-torture.html
For example, the MPAA was formed because the movie industry felt it was better to self-censor than to have the government censor them.
If your movie contains anything the censors don’t approve, then it will not get an R rating, and will not be distributed to theaters, etc.
They even censor political speech sometimes: https://boingboing.net/2007/12/20/mpaa-censors-torture.html
OK. By the same token, demanding that all speech be allowed on a private platform is censoring the platform owner's speech. So whichever position you take, you are advocating for censorship, and we have successfully reduced a useful word to an insult we can shout at anyone who uses their speech in a way we dislike. Neat trick.
no its not. censorship is stopping you from talking. allowing everyone to talk is the opposite of censorship. the platform owner can say whatever they want.
That's not the same token at all.
-Demanding the owner not let someone say something Vs. -Demanding the owner let someone say something
I mean, they're both demands vis-a-vis the owner. But what they're demanding are the opposite of each other.
-Demanding the owner not let someone say something Vs. -Demanding the owner let someone say something
I mean, they're both demands vis-a-vis the owner. But what they're demanding are the opposite of each other.
I don't use gab.
> what would be the point of using Gab instead of just other Mastodon instance?
This question answers itself. "Gab" is a brand name. Other Mastadon instances are not. People will join the brand name, the underlying technology is irrelevant.
> what would be the point of using Gab instead of just other Mastodon instance?
This question answers itself. "Gab" is a brand name. Other Mastadon instances are not. People will join the brand name, the underlying technology is irrelevant.
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I first heard of Gab when big social media sites were accused of censoring conservatives during the 2016 election. One of the idea of Gab is if you don't like what people say you can block them and don't visit their profile...
So for example many social networks banned Alex Jones... With Gab if you don't like what he says, you don't have to follow him... So instead of the site itself trying to censor people, the users can censor things themselves. I believe the only thing Gab censors is if the content itself is illegal in some way, but other than that they support free speech giving users more choices and freedom.
So for example many social networks banned Alex Jones... With Gab if you don't like what he says, you don't have to follow him... So instead of the site itself trying to censor people, the users can censor things themselves. I believe the only thing Gab censors is if the content itself is illegal in some way, but other than that they support free speech giving users more choices and freedom.
Sure you can block specific users, but if I don't want to see (for example) anti-semitism how can I block that topic completely? It's not as if users tag their posts with each brand of hate speech.
Personally I think Curt Yarvin had a decent idea about how to handle this type of thing with Urbit. Of course Urbit itself is terminally esoteric and nigh unusable, but here are the principles:
“Urbit will do everything possible to help you block content you don't want to see. It does nothing to help you block content you don't want others to see. ... If you post content on Urbit which may offend or disturb any significant group of users, it is your responsibility to mark it properly for automatic blocking.”
https://urbit.org/posts/beliefs-and-principles/
There was a wordier post related to this but I think some stuff might have been purged with his separation from Tlon.
Anyway, the point is, if I’m writing from an alt-right perspective it’s my responsibility to tag it as such. Properly tagged, anti-semitism (for example) would not be an abuse of the platform. I don’t see how this is any less enforceable than the outright banning that e.g. Twitter practices now, and in fact it may be quite a bit easier, as you’ll get fewer “outlaws” who have to cycle through alts every week or two to get their message out to their followers.
One problem of course is establishing a small and universally recognized set of tags that work well enough for most people. Instead of very specific “content warning” types of things, it’s probably good enough to indicate broad political allegiance - black flag, red flag, brown flag etc. It’s rare that just a single word in isolation sets people off - offense taken seems to have more to do with the worldview motivating a given statement.
Then there’s the question of asymmetry. Say, for example, that As are mortally offended by B content but Bs don’t seem to care much about A content. In effect, you’d be creating an unfair burden on Bs simply because they’re more tolerant than As.
NLP algorithms can obviously help here, as well as crowdsourced tagging. So a single A user might have to be exposed to a B-type post to apply the tag, but we might consider that an acceptable loss over a large enough base.
This of course all assumes good faith. I suspect that As will simply be furious that Bs are able to talk to other Bs and neutral Cs, even if they never see those posts.
“Urbit will do everything possible to help you block content you don't want to see. It does nothing to help you block content you don't want others to see. ... If you post content on Urbit which may offend or disturb any significant group of users, it is your responsibility to mark it properly for automatic blocking.”
https://urbit.org/posts/beliefs-and-principles/
There was a wordier post related to this but I think some stuff might have been purged with his separation from Tlon.
Anyway, the point is, if I’m writing from an alt-right perspective it’s my responsibility to tag it as such. Properly tagged, anti-semitism (for example) would not be an abuse of the platform. I don’t see how this is any less enforceable than the outright banning that e.g. Twitter practices now, and in fact it may be quite a bit easier, as you’ll get fewer “outlaws” who have to cycle through alts every week or two to get their message out to their followers.
One problem of course is establishing a small and universally recognized set of tags that work well enough for most people. Instead of very specific “content warning” types of things, it’s probably good enough to indicate broad political allegiance - black flag, red flag, brown flag etc. It’s rare that just a single word in isolation sets people off - offense taken seems to have more to do with the worldview motivating a given statement.
Then there’s the question of asymmetry. Say, for example, that As are mortally offended by B content but Bs don’t seem to care much about A content. In effect, you’d be creating an unfair burden on Bs simply because they’re more tolerant than As.
NLP algorithms can obviously help here, as well as crowdsourced tagging. So a single A user might have to be exposed to a B-type post to apply the tag, but we might consider that an acceptable loss over a large enough base.
This of course all assumes good faith. I suspect that As will simply be furious that Bs are able to talk to other Bs and neutral Cs, even if they never see those posts.
I'm not sure if you block someone if it also hides their topics created by them but I would assume so. I know they have a way to block words too. I guess they call it mute users and words instead of block.
I know some people were calling this the alt tech space.
I haven't really been following it other than I remember the developer was interviewed talking about it. Another idea instead of verification badge being reserved for large celebrities, supposed to be more to show it's truly them.
I do think we're going down a slippery slope with all this censorship though and a few large players in Silicon valley controlling everything. I know there was a lot of accusations going on, that some search engines and sites were rigged to rank Hillary higher than Trump... Even the people in the media were saying Trump had no chance and Hillary was going to win. It's like they tried to rig the whole thing. But even then the mainstream media is all controlled by a few hands anyways too.
Then there are only really two main operating systems... On Mobile iOS and Android. Desktop Mac and Windows... So seems like more choices and freedom is a great thing, so power is spread out more instead of a few having large amounts of influence. However I also feel like people will pick things based on ease of use and features over being open. I like the ideas of Linux but I find myself using MacOs when it comes to desktop operating systems.
I know people are building alternatives to Facebook and YouTube on the blockchain (such as Steemit). Then there are even projects aiming to build alternatives to Wikipedia as some people don't even trust them either, forget what it's called though off the top of my head though. I know some of these companies have a lot of control and power, and can't even provide decent technical support.
I know Elizabeth Warren recent thing is talking about breaking up big tech, Google and Facebook... I like a lot of what Google does though, as a geek they are doing awesome things technically. I'm not sure if breaking them up is a good idea or not, but I think more competition and choices would be great as lack of tech support is a concern(and many recent HN posts on that topic already) and ideally I wish they'd be neutral in ranking things but I know people debate about that anyway as a whole other topic.
I know some people were calling this the alt tech space.
I haven't really been following it other than I remember the developer was interviewed talking about it. Another idea instead of verification badge being reserved for large celebrities, supposed to be more to show it's truly them.
I do think we're going down a slippery slope with all this censorship though and a few large players in Silicon valley controlling everything. I know there was a lot of accusations going on, that some search engines and sites were rigged to rank Hillary higher than Trump... Even the people in the media were saying Trump had no chance and Hillary was going to win. It's like they tried to rig the whole thing. But even then the mainstream media is all controlled by a few hands anyways too.
Then there are only really two main operating systems... On Mobile iOS and Android. Desktop Mac and Windows... So seems like more choices and freedom is a great thing, so power is spread out more instead of a few having large amounts of influence. However I also feel like people will pick things based on ease of use and features over being open. I like the ideas of Linux but I find myself using MacOs when it comes to desktop operating systems.
I know people are building alternatives to Facebook and YouTube on the blockchain (such as Steemit). Then there are even projects aiming to build alternatives to Wikipedia as some people don't even trust them either, forget what it's called though off the top of my head though. I know some of these companies have a lot of control and power, and can't even provide decent technical support.
I know Elizabeth Warren recent thing is talking about breaking up big tech, Google and Facebook... I like a lot of what Google does though, as a geek they are doing awesome things technically. I'm not sure if breaking them up is a good idea or not, but I think more competition and choices would be great as lack of tech support is a concern(and many recent HN posts on that topic already) and ideally I wish they'd be neutral in ranking things but I know people debate about that anyway as a whole other topic.
> some search engines and sites were rigged to rank Hillary higher than Trump... Even the people in the media were saying Trump had no chance and Hillary was going to win. It's like they tried to rig the whole thing. But even then the mainstream media is all controlled by a few hands anyways too.
You don't know this, though. There's no possible way you can.
And from someone inside the media— it's more disparate than you seem to want to believe.
You don't know this, though. There's no possible way you can.
And from someone inside the media— it's more disparate than you seem to want to believe.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network) -
"Gab is an English-language social media website, launched publicly in 2017, known for its mainly far-right user base.[9] The site has been described as "extremist friendly"[10] or a "safe haven"[11] for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right.[10] ... Antisemitism is a prominent part of the site's content[24] and the platform itself has engaged in antisemitic commentary.[13][25]" - and so on.
I'm curious how the existing Mastodon users feel about this.
"Gab is an English-language social media website, launched publicly in 2017, known for its mainly far-right user base.[9] The site has been described as "extremist friendly"[10] or a "safe haven"[11] for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right.[10] ... Antisemitism is a prominent part of the site's content[24] and the platform itself has engaged in antisemitic commentary.[13][25]" - and so on.
I'm curious how the existing Mastodon users feel about this.
A nice thing about Mastodon/ActivityPub is that administrators of "instances" (which means basically each running copy of the server software; you create a user account with a specific Mastodon instance, rather than with Mastodon itself) can disable federation with individual other instances, if they want to. So if a particular instance becomes a haven for trolls or other miscreants, you can block that entire instance and your users will no longer have to deal anything posted from it.
So I suspect that, if Gab really does become an ActivityPub instance, many other instances will just de-federate from them and that will be that.
So I suspect that, if Gab really does become an ActivityPub instance, many other instances will just de-federate from them and that will be that.
Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for Mastodon instances - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain instances from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who they are supporting.
Free Software can’t discriminate based on use case, but this was written back before godwin’s law was repealed, so, maybe no one will care that much if freedom zero gets tossed out?
sigh
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms: [1]
The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
...
sigh
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms: [1]
The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
...
We prevent bad actors from developing (if possible) or having nuclear weapons. If they come to develop it on their own, okay then, however imagine we just gave that technology to everyone?
Nuclear weapons have widespread and massive devastation, the potential energy that builds up with hate is perhaps more terrifying though - as instead of immediately killing millions, you'll have situations like Nazi Germany, and so on - allowing bad actors to gain more and more power and more resources to influence the world.
I don't know and am not saying whether it should be done or not, if a developer who builds something that works with Mastodon's structure should be allowed to build a mechanism in that prevents who they consider bad actors (or bad parents) to having use of their tool; of course the bad actors could copy and develop the tools themselves, however those slight or temporary advantages do play a role in who is a victor - imagine if it was the Nazis had nuclear weapons first.
Generally not aiding people towards their goals who you see are behaving in a way that leads to hate and violence is a good thing, no? Helping them survive, understand, and quell their unrest, yes - but not helping hate and violence boil and explode.
The university Mark Zuckerberg was attending was planning to develop an online version of what they called a physical version of The Facebook. Mark couldn't understand why it was taking them so long and said he could get it launched quickly; the reason it wasn't being launched quickly was the university/committee was trying to understand the security, social, and other implications. Mark didn't care at all about the consequences - including but not limited to him fucking over the twin brothers who hired him to develop ConnectU, leading them on purposefully so he could launch Facebook first. Perhaps if everyone did care about the consequences for what they invest their time and/or money into, then standing for good - rallying good people and helping prop them up as best as we all can all in service to others - would gain a leg up against bad actors, malevolence?
Nuclear weapons have widespread and massive devastation, the potential energy that builds up with hate is perhaps more terrifying though - as instead of immediately killing millions, you'll have situations like Nazi Germany, and so on - allowing bad actors to gain more and more power and more resources to influence the world.
I don't know and am not saying whether it should be done or not, if a developer who builds something that works with Mastodon's structure should be allowed to build a mechanism in that prevents who they consider bad actors (or bad parents) to having use of their tool; of course the bad actors could copy and develop the tools themselves, however those slight or temporary advantages do play a role in who is a victor - imagine if it was the Nazis had nuclear weapons first.
Generally not aiding people towards their goals who you see are behaving in a way that leads to hate and violence is a good thing, no? Helping them survive, understand, and quell their unrest, yes - but not helping hate and violence boil and explode.
The university Mark Zuckerberg was attending was planning to develop an online version of what they called a physical version of The Facebook. Mark couldn't understand why it was taking them so long and said he could get it launched quickly; the reason it wasn't being launched quickly was the university/committee was trying to understand the security, social, and other implications. Mark didn't care at all about the consequences - including but not limited to him fucking over the twin brothers who hired him to develop ConnectU, leading them on purposefully so he could launch Facebook first. Perhaps if everyone did care about the consequences for what they invest their time and/or money into, then standing for good - rallying good people and helping prop them up as best as we all can all in service to others - would gain a leg up against bad actors, malevolence?
sure it can. They have the right and ability to only allow connections to specific instances. You'd still have the right to recompile it without such a list though.
> I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for Mastodon instances
Theoretically, yes. If Gab becomes an ActivityPub instance, and you have an account on Gab, you should be able to use any ActivityPub client software to connect to it. Since all ActivityPub instances are supposed to implement the same API, clients are essentially agnostic as to which particular instance they're connecting to. It's kind of like how you can use any mail reader to connect to any IMAP/POP email account.
What makes the de-federating thing I mentioned above significant here is that, just because you could use an ActivityPub client to connect to Gab, that doesn't necessarily mean you'd get access to anything in the fediverse outside of Gab. You can only connect to resources outside your instance if your instance is federated with that other one. If other instances refuse to federate with Gab, Gab users would be able to talk with each other and no one else.
Theoretically, yes. If Gab becomes an ActivityPub instance, and you have an account on Gab, you should be able to use any ActivityPub client software to connect to it. Since all ActivityPub instances are supposed to implement the same API, clients are essentially agnostic as to which particular instance they're connecting to. It's kind of like how you can use any mail reader to connect to any IMAP/POP email account.
What makes the de-federating thing I mentioned above significant here is that, just because you could use an ActivityPub client to connect to Gab, that doesn't necessarily mean you'd get access to anything in the fediverse outside of Gab. You can only connect to resources outside your instance if your instance is federated with that other one. If other instances refuse to federate with Gab, Gab users would be able to talk with each other and no one else.
Mastodon is basically a protocol. Replace “Mastodon” with “HTTP” and you’ll see why your comment makes no sense:
“Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for HTTP servers - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain servers from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who they are supporting.”
Yes, releasing Free software means that even Osama Bin Laden or Hitler would be able to use it freely, whether the author likes it or not.
Yes, it’s a good thing.
“Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for HTTP servers - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain servers from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who they are supporting.”
Yes, releasing Free software means that even Osama Bin Laden or Hitler would be able to use it freely, whether the author likes it or not.
Yes, it’s a good thing.
It's arguably not a good thing - giving someone violent tools to be violent? And "free software" yes - but I'm not necessarily talking about free software. I was asking if someone could develop something that ties into Mastodon but only work for instances they approve - otherwise they'd have the ability to block it. I realize in hindsight the answer is fairly obvious.
Given it's a federated service, I doubt many mastadon users will know or care that much. Those that run servers might choose to blacklist them, making them all but invisible.
Mastodon is like email. How do email users feel about other people sending nazi stuff via email?
Depends on where we are in the historical timeline. I remember abandoning Hotmail in 2004 because of just how much spam got through. Gmail's spam filter was leagues ahead, but I think these days they're all pretty good.
These things take time to change. There will be an adjustment period during which Gab's hate content will spill over into other Mastodon environments. Like a spam senders list, Mastodon environments will need to continuously update the list of blocked Gab/hate group instances.
These things take time to change. There will be an adjustment period during which Gab's hate content will spill over into other Mastodon environments. Like a spam senders list, Mastodon environments will need to continuously update the list of blocked Gab/hate group instances.
I wonder which side is going to splinter first.
There are existing instances which have been described as “nazi alt-right quadroons” and instance moderators can block other instances, so it’ll probably be business as usual.
This is a good example of why Wikipedia is not a reliable source for many things. I have used Gab and while it is true there are clearly anti-Semitic users on Gab but there are just as many users who call out that behavior and make fun of the simple mindedness of anti-semitism. Just because a platform is for free speech absolutism doesn't mean the platform itself is bad.
> free speech absolutism
I just did a cursory glance at Gab and I already found 4 antisemitic posts and that was just on the first page.
I just did a cursory glance at Gab and I already found 4 antisemitic posts and that was just on the first page.
On the other hand if we're serious about free speech absolutism, this is probably the best case scenario. Federated Mastadon instances should have the option of blocking harassment from Gab users. Allow them to have their free speech, but the rest of online society should have the option to shun them - a real-world dynamic that is not well reflected on platforms like twitter _because_ of centralization. Rather than hopelessly petitioning Jack to ban the nazis, users + communities should be empowered to do it themselves.