New Insights into Hikikomori – People Who Withdraw from Society for Years on End(digest.bps.org.uk)
digest.bps.org.uk
New Insights into Hikikomori – People Who Withdraw from Society for Years on End
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/05/22/new-insights-into-hikikomori-people-who-withdraw-from-society-for-months-or-years-on-end/
70 comments
I was a Hikikomori (In North American) for 1 year. These bits from the article really resonate with me “I am anxious about the possibility of meeting people that I know” and “These anxieties may be related to a sense of humiliation, which suggests that they are afraid of being seen in their current situation". Before becoming a Hikikomori I had failed out of University and felt embarrassed to leave my room, also felt embarrassed at my physical appearance. Looking back at it, I wasted a year of my life doing nothing but getting high, and consuming entertainment. Great news though now I work 40 hours a week and waste my time getting high and consuming entertainment only during the evenings.
The joys of capitalism.
I jest, though. While it probably feels the same on paper, your mental health is (probably) much better now, I would assume.
I jest, though. While it probably feels the same on paper, your mental health is (probably) much better now, I would assume.
Hikitomoris often have low status. They aren't respected in the eyes of their peers, because they lack either a job, skills/education, a spouse, or looks. So when they talk with their peers, they feel inferior, and are often reminded about their position. That's why they rather step aside. Some of them are unwilling to integrate with the ill values the society has, and that paralyzes them, since they don't have where to go. Mental issues are related to this matter, at least partly caused by the system, and maybe childhood experiences, traumas, etc. The longer they stay isolated, the more they fall behind, and the harder it gets for them to go out and compete.
Is there really anything to gain from contact with society? Most people run some sort of scam.
I ghosted a few years ago after bad divorce, and it was very good decision.
I ghosted a few years ago after bad divorce, and it was very good decision.
I’ve also noticed the perspective that a majority people seem to “have an angle”, whether that’s an outright financial scam, emotional manipulation, some sort of hustle, wanting to monetize your brain by employing you, or whatever. Interested to hear other people’s observations related to this.
Some communities are more transactional than others.
Everyone has an angle in that we're generally a social species and being around people we like and who confirm our worldviews and validate our ways of life (and make us laugh) gives us pleasure (to varying extents along the introvert to extrovert continuum), but the result of that is that some interactions are just that, interactions for the sake of interaction with no higher or lower motive than enjoyment.
If your social experiences actually end up more like businesspeople networking, which is certainly something that happens in many circles, then the transactional nature of it all can definitely become far too obvious and off-putting.
Everyone has an angle in that we're generally a social species and being around people we like and who confirm our worldviews and validate our ways of life (and make us laugh) gives us pleasure (to varying extents along the introvert to extrovert continuum), but the result of that is that some interactions are just that, interactions for the sake of interaction with no higher or lower motive than enjoyment.
If your social experiences actually end up more like businesspeople networking, which is certainly something that happens in many circles, then the transactional nature of it all can definitely become far too obvious and off-putting.
Not to forget they want to fuck you if you're a woman.
But there are people who genuinely also want friends, but they are rare as you age.
Also people who just want to genuinely have fun in this life - they are a treasure
I felt probably like a Hikikomori when I moved to the other side of the country for my now ex and worked remote for two years. I basically never left the house except for walking the dog and doing grocery shopping. I had no friends and no real social life except when my ex and I visited her friends and family or if I flew back to my hometown.
Even as an introvert I felt fucking miserable for the entire time. I enjoy solitude but that shit wasn't it, it was isolation.
Even as an introvert I felt fucking miserable for the entire time. I enjoy solitude but that shit wasn't it, it was isolation.
This is my fear of working remote. Seems to come up relatively often in threads that discuss remote work -- needing to force oneself to leave the house (which is also the workplace)
Working from home when remote seems like the most dangerous idea if your work does not require human interaction (live meetings etc)
You can always find a coworking space.
"But one local demographic variable did stand out as being protective"
What does 'protective' mean in this context? I wondered if it was somehow a typo of 'predictive', but that's a bit of a leap for a typo.
What does 'protective' mean in this context? I wondered if it was somehow a typo of 'predictive', but that's a bit of a leap for a typo.
you see it in medical literature; i believe it just means what it sounds like, ie that living in the environment they describe makes one statistically less likely to be a hiki
>But if these anxieties are keeping people inside their homes, what’s prompting them to retreat there in the first place? The survey also revealed that hikikomori are more likely to have dropped out of high school or university. Perhaps finding ways to keep young people in education may, then, reduce the risk.
Holy God no! I had excellent grades and extracurriculars but in high school there were months I would cry every day in class or even cut my wrists in class to relieve social pain by replacing it with the more endurable physical pain. A few angelic classmates tried to help but teachers did not, although I learned after the fact that they talked about me a lot in the faculty lounge where I was called "Boo Radley". One doctor at the high school said I was autistic so my parents gave me to the local university's psychology department and paid a bunch of money so every week I had an hour appointment each week one on one with the dean of the department. It was maybe worse than nothing. I never had any idea what to say and he had no idea what to ask and he would tell my parents that I wouldn't talk (when it was more that I didn't have the ability to skill or something to - he would ask queations that I could totally understand were normal for normal people but as for me answering them - I wouldn't know how to even begin because usually either they didn't prompt a verbal reaction in my consciousness, or it would prompt the beginning of an potentially-endlessly complicated chain reaction that would take hours and hours of me forming and conducting a commission investigation in my jead) and, as far as diagnosing me, one prof gave me an IQ test and called me a genius and they said that once I got to grad school I would fit in. The professors told my parents I wasn't autistic, and that's all my parents heard. The professors diagnosed me with "Pervasive Developmental Disorder", which was later replaced with "Autism Spectrum Disorder".
Anyway, I got into my first choice school, and I got accepted by all of them except the ones that have interviews to keep people like me out, but I was afraid of debt so I went to my last choice school because I got a full ride for academics. I was still extremely depressed but felt better overall than high school, although I attempted suicide at least once in high school and once i college. I missed two questions on the GRE and got into the #1 ranked program for my major. I was leaning on not going to grad school because it seemed insane to borrow $60K a year for three years but my parents wanted me to go and said they would pay for the first semester and my godparents talked about how they met in grad school and I thought about how the psychologists said I might not fit in until grad school.
So, I went, but I was still the most awkward person by far. I couldn't get any mentorship from my mentor anymore than I could connect with that psychology dean. The final straw was this irrelevant-to-our-major class we were all required to take, one of those ones where they get a not-a-professor maybe as desperate as I am, and one where you have to write papers. This guy was a Marxist homilist, just about literally. He would start each class reading from the original Marx (never Zizek, Bookchin, Foucault, Butler, no not for him). Guy would tweet about how Dungeons and Dragons had a dangerously inaccurate portayal of agriculture. I shit you not. Anyway, there was an essay prompt that really inspired me, and I wrote what I thought was the best writing of my life. I worried if the teacher would like it and prepared to really try to learn from the feedback. The next day, the teacher told us he wasn't going to read any of the papers and as long as he got an email from us with a document attached, we would get an A.
I switched to computer science where the professors openly hated their lives and had absolutely no flame of earnest passion to pass on. Students would openly cheat and I was the only one who would complain. Profs would tell us they were being forced to pass incompetent undergraduates to maintain revenue. The #1 student in my year was an audacious sociopath who loudly bragged about hacking university systems and businesses for money, with no shame or hint of ethics or philosophy. I was #2 and #3 was a girl that really wanted to be a math major and was leaning back and forth. Well, I guess one week she decided it was going to be math and blew off studying for an exam. As the professor roams the room during the exam, he looks at her paper and panics, realizing he could lose his job because she's the 1 female out of the 3 in the 80 person class that is holding up the female average and he's already under investigation for gender bias. So he just starts telling her the answers and trying to get her to cheat on a test she doesn't care about. I lost the last of my hope in the utility of universities and made to leave. They offered me a teaching position if I finished, as if that was an enticement. Somehow Google got my phone number and wanted to interview me but I couldn't work there in good conscience. Out of all the cs jobs I applied for, I finally got through an interview, and I was offered $500 to work the entire summer as an internship. The charity I had been doing volunteer computer work for two years offered me a position for maybe 80% of federal minimum wage. I went back to my janitor job because it paid better. But I was completely alone and eventually I had more and more sleepless nights and when I kept having 2+ sleepless nights in a row and I decided I couldn't safely drive to work anymore.
Fifteen years earlier, in middle school, I remember when my babysitter heard that my friend was paid $500 by his uncle to work all summer she called him up and cussed him out until a fair wage was paid. I worked on her farm for many years. I still have only worked for people that loved me. Why did I make an exception for schoolwork?
I tortured myself for years, submitting to this imposition of school for what? To come up with answers for people that do not care for me, do not pay me, already have the answers to the objective questions, and are not interested in my subjective answers.
So, no, keeping kids that are emotionally wrecked and socially destitute coralled in schools will not help because that's not their function.
Our society can't turn off the media and go back to each other now because we wouldn't know where to even begin.
Holy God no! I had excellent grades and extracurriculars but in high school there were months I would cry every day in class or even cut my wrists in class to relieve social pain by replacing it with the more endurable physical pain. A few angelic classmates tried to help but teachers did not, although I learned after the fact that they talked about me a lot in the faculty lounge where I was called "Boo Radley". One doctor at the high school said I was autistic so my parents gave me to the local university's psychology department and paid a bunch of money so every week I had an hour appointment each week one on one with the dean of the department. It was maybe worse than nothing. I never had any idea what to say and he had no idea what to ask and he would tell my parents that I wouldn't talk (when it was more that I didn't have the ability to skill or something to - he would ask queations that I could totally understand were normal for normal people but as for me answering them - I wouldn't know how to even begin because usually either they didn't prompt a verbal reaction in my consciousness, or it would prompt the beginning of an potentially-endlessly complicated chain reaction that would take hours and hours of me forming and conducting a commission investigation in my jead) and, as far as diagnosing me, one prof gave me an IQ test and called me a genius and they said that once I got to grad school I would fit in. The professors told my parents I wasn't autistic, and that's all my parents heard. The professors diagnosed me with "Pervasive Developmental Disorder", which was later replaced with "Autism Spectrum Disorder".
Anyway, I got into my first choice school, and I got accepted by all of them except the ones that have interviews to keep people like me out, but I was afraid of debt so I went to my last choice school because I got a full ride for academics. I was still extremely depressed but felt better overall than high school, although I attempted suicide at least once in high school and once i college. I missed two questions on the GRE and got into the #1 ranked program for my major. I was leaning on not going to grad school because it seemed insane to borrow $60K a year for three years but my parents wanted me to go and said they would pay for the first semester and my godparents talked about how they met in grad school and I thought about how the psychologists said I might not fit in until grad school.
So, I went, but I was still the most awkward person by far. I couldn't get any mentorship from my mentor anymore than I could connect with that psychology dean. The final straw was this irrelevant-to-our-major class we were all required to take, one of those ones where they get a not-a-professor maybe as desperate as I am, and one where you have to write papers. This guy was a Marxist homilist, just about literally. He would start each class reading from the original Marx (never Zizek, Bookchin, Foucault, Butler, no not for him). Guy would tweet about how Dungeons and Dragons had a dangerously inaccurate portayal of agriculture. I shit you not. Anyway, there was an essay prompt that really inspired me, and I wrote what I thought was the best writing of my life. I worried if the teacher would like it and prepared to really try to learn from the feedback. The next day, the teacher told us he wasn't going to read any of the papers and as long as he got an email from us with a document attached, we would get an A.
I switched to computer science where the professors openly hated their lives and had absolutely no flame of earnest passion to pass on. Students would openly cheat and I was the only one who would complain. Profs would tell us they were being forced to pass incompetent undergraduates to maintain revenue. The #1 student in my year was an audacious sociopath who loudly bragged about hacking university systems and businesses for money, with no shame or hint of ethics or philosophy. I was #2 and #3 was a girl that really wanted to be a math major and was leaning back and forth. Well, I guess one week she decided it was going to be math and blew off studying for an exam. As the professor roams the room during the exam, he looks at her paper and panics, realizing he could lose his job because she's the 1 female out of the 3 in the 80 person class that is holding up the female average and he's already under investigation for gender bias. So he just starts telling her the answers and trying to get her to cheat on a test she doesn't care about. I lost the last of my hope in the utility of universities and made to leave. They offered me a teaching position if I finished, as if that was an enticement. Somehow Google got my phone number and wanted to interview me but I couldn't work there in good conscience. Out of all the cs jobs I applied for, I finally got through an interview, and I was offered $500 to work the entire summer as an internship. The charity I had been doing volunteer computer work for two years offered me a position for maybe 80% of federal minimum wage. I went back to my janitor job because it paid better. But I was completely alone and eventually I had more and more sleepless nights and when I kept having 2+ sleepless nights in a row and I decided I couldn't safely drive to work anymore.
Fifteen years earlier, in middle school, I remember when my babysitter heard that my friend was paid $500 by his uncle to work all summer she called him up and cussed him out until a fair wage was paid. I worked on her farm for many years. I still have only worked for people that loved me. Why did I make an exception for schoolwork?
I tortured myself for years, submitting to this imposition of school for what? To come up with answers for people that do not care for me, do not pay me, already have the answers to the objective questions, and are not interested in my subjective answers.
So, no, keeping kids that are emotionally wrecked and socially destitute coralled in schools will not help because that's not their function.
Our society can't turn off the media and go back to each other now because we wouldn't know where to even begin.
I’ve cut off all family and friends for a long period of time now, and discontinued my career/work after finally reaching a cynical point of no return a few years ago. My only interactions at this point are with food service workers at the store or coffee shop, or other shopping/errands. Perhaps this is a variant of Hikikomori. In fact, the characteristics of one for me are essentially spot on, except that I’m more of a shut-out (in public alone often).
I’ve given away my retirement and am preparing for suicide. I’m not in search of advice nor assistance regarding my situation. I smile in public, but inside I’m meditating in preparation for the unknown void of the afterlife. There are almost certainly many others like me.
For a long time, I wondered if it were possible for people to treat each other better and whether that would have changed anything for me. The reality is that I was unequipped to build a healthy place in society because I decided a long time ago that I hated being alive and hated people. It’s my own shortcoming, and suicide is a valid way to remove a weak seed from the gene pool, if not controversial or taboo in Western society. My understanding is that it’s not as frowned upon in Japan but not sure if that is still the case.
I’ve given away my retirement and am preparing for suicide. I’m not in search of advice nor assistance regarding my situation. I smile in public, but inside I’m meditating in preparation for the unknown void of the afterlife. There are almost certainly many others like me.
For a long time, I wondered if it were possible for people to treat each other better and whether that would have changed anything for me. The reality is that I was unequipped to build a healthy place in society because I decided a long time ago that I hated being alive and hated people. It’s my own shortcoming, and suicide is a valid way to remove a weak seed from the gene pool, if not controversial or taboo in Western society. My understanding is that it’s not as frowned upon in Japan but not sure if that is still the case.
Some opinions from reading responses:
* Referring to someone in the third person while in their (virtual) presence comes across as rude.
* It is incredibly irresponsible to bring up illegal drug use at all.
* Saying someone has “mental issues” who is describing their choice to withdraw and plan suicide long term is always a poor choice of words. It’s counterproductive at best, and destructive at worst. If you’re going to summarize someone’s problems in this case, perhaps “consciously chosen socially maladaptive behavior” is a better euphemism.
To these opinions, did you think maybe I (or someone in this case like me) just decided long ago that I don’t like getting picked on? Ever think an algorithm can be a far worse bully than a scumbag teenager telling a classmate explicitly to kill themselves? Ever think that people try to hurt others and drive them to suicide intentionally with the intent on getting away with it? Ever see what scumbags on reddit or dark parts of the internet can do to a person behind their back? Ever think that you don’t know shit, and that you’re assuming I haven’t touched the universe long ago with your precious lysergic spiritual dimethyl horse tranquilizer bullshit?
You want to summarize “him” as having “mental issues”, fine. But you have a long way to go towards understanding the truth about the extent to which it’s possible to pick on a person to the point where they are worn down to a little nub, and simply give up.
The only reason I’m disclosing this is to help the species deal with people like me. I’m not seeking your advice or help, as stated. Some people have thick skins or learn to grow one. I never wanted to grow a thick skin. I wanted to die from before age 10 and I gave up then after considering the mechanisms of humanity. Hopefully the decades of data that I’ve generated since then will be a useful towards improving how people treat each other — via responsible use of technology.
Again, I don’t like this species and I don’t like being alive. Take that as you will. All will be revealed to a grand AI sooner or later, largely affected by the extent of non post quantum pcaps being quietly stashed away at an exponentially growing rate.
* Referring to someone in the third person while in their (virtual) presence comes across as rude.
* It is incredibly irresponsible to bring up illegal drug use at all.
* Saying someone has “mental issues” who is describing their choice to withdraw and plan suicide long term is always a poor choice of words. It’s counterproductive at best, and destructive at worst. If you’re going to summarize someone’s problems in this case, perhaps “consciously chosen socially maladaptive behavior” is a better euphemism.
To these opinions, did you think maybe I (or someone in this case like me) just decided long ago that I don’t like getting picked on? Ever think an algorithm can be a far worse bully than a scumbag teenager telling a classmate explicitly to kill themselves? Ever think that people try to hurt others and drive them to suicide intentionally with the intent on getting away with it? Ever see what scumbags on reddit or dark parts of the internet can do to a person behind their back? Ever think that you don’t know shit, and that you’re assuming I haven’t touched the universe long ago with your precious lysergic spiritual dimethyl horse tranquilizer bullshit?
You want to summarize “him” as having “mental issues”, fine. But you have a long way to go towards understanding the truth about the extent to which it’s possible to pick on a person to the point where they are worn down to a little nub, and simply give up.
The only reason I’m disclosing this is to help the species deal with people like me. I’m not seeking your advice or help, as stated. Some people have thick skins or learn to grow one. I never wanted to grow a thick skin. I wanted to die from before age 10 and I gave up then after considering the mechanisms of humanity. Hopefully the decades of data that I’ve generated since then will be a useful towards improving how people treat each other — via responsible use of technology.
Again, I don’t like this species and I don’t like being alive. Take that as you will. All will be revealed to a grand AI sooner or later, largely affected by the extent of non post quantum pcaps being quietly stashed away at an exponentially growing rate.
In stark difference to pretty much almost everyone who replied to you, I'll say: Kudos.
It takes courage and a strong will to see through this world for what it is and go against social and biological conditioning. It is amusing to me that the peddlers of psychedelics haven't really grasped what awaits them. Maybe they haven't taken enough psychedelics themselves. It is also amusing to see people cling to Jordan Peterson and proclaim:
"Brainwash yourself into conformance! I did it! You can do it too!"
It takes courage and a strong will to see through this world for what it is and go against social and biological conditioning. It is amusing to me that the peddlers of psychedelics haven't really grasped what awaits them. Maybe they haven't taken enough psychedelics themselves. It is also amusing to see people cling to Jordan Peterson and proclaim:
"Brainwash yourself into conformance! I did it! You can do it too!"
If nothing else thanks for the comment because it’s reply’s have great insights. Be well friend
A few weeks ago, I was really depressed. I had exactly the same thoughts. I didn’t want to leave my place or meet with friends. After taking magic mushrooms, I feel FAR better. It’s a bit strange to explain but even if I still have these negative thoughts, it’s harder to obsess about them like before. You should also check ketamine treatments if you’re in the US.
As stated, I’m not seeking advice, etc.
Ok fine. Just google Ketamine + depression out of curiosity.
I think I’m the one that understands you the most here. I still think I have terrible genes, that I shouldn’t procreate and that I’m a failure.
But, a few weeks ago, I couldn’t leave my place for 6 months. After a big mushroom trip, I feel far better. When you are depressed, sometimes you need chemicals to stop the negative loop.
Some guys, after going to war, have terrible PTSD. Ketamine was the only way.
If I wanted to die, I would at least try to have some fun with drugs before ;).
I think I’m the one that understands you the most here. I still think I have terrible genes, that I shouldn’t procreate and that I’m a failure.
But, a few weeks ago, I couldn’t leave my place for 6 months. After a big mushroom trip, I feel far better. When you are depressed, sometimes you need chemicals to stop the negative loop.
Some guys, after going to war, have terrible PTSD. Ketamine was the only way.
If I wanted to die, I would at least try to have some fun with drugs before ;).
That's fantastic! I wish you good luck getting back with friends and building up a life :-)
A thought before you go?
If you weren't seeking help why are you here telling us? Perhaps you would like help but don't know how to ask for it, or are ashamed, or have another dumb reason.
Talk to someone, you obviously have something to say. Even if it does nothing at least someone will hear your story.
If you weren't seeking help why are you here telling us? Perhaps you would like help but don't know how to ask for it, or are ashamed, or have another dumb reason.
Talk to someone, you obviously have something to say. Even if it does nothing at least someone will hear your story.
>If you weren't seeking help why are you here telling us?
I feel that's a very presumptuous and patronising thing to say. People leave suicide notes not because they want help, but because they want people to understand what they're going through. We yearn for this sort of intellectual connection even after the wish to stay alive has disappeared.
I feel that's a very presumptuous and patronising thing to say. People leave suicide notes not because they want help, but because they want people to understand what they're going through. We yearn for this sort of intellectual connection even after the wish to stay alive has disappeared.
Just leaving a point of view and something for the digital archaeologists to dig up down the road. Truly I hate being alive and I hate this species. I suspect many hikikomori feel the same way
I agree that "hell is other people" as Satire put it, and have often felt as you do. I often still feel as you do. I decided to not let the bastards win some time ago.
I won't tell you what to do but I do know that victory is much sweeter than the endless black, and it is within your grasp should you choose it.
Farewell fellow traveler, it would please me to encounter you again someday.
Edit: I also have enjoyed the work of Dr. Peterson as the other commenter stated. I second the recommendation. He is why I continue to fight.
I won't tell you what to do but I do know that victory is much sweeter than the endless black, and it is within your grasp should you choose it.
Farewell fellow traveler, it would please me to encounter you again someday.
Edit: I also have enjoyed the work of Dr. Peterson as the other commenter stated. I second the recommendation. He is why I continue to fight.
Why do you hate being alive? Do you experience a net suffering? Why hate humans? Is it an ethical issue or something else or multiple things?
Because it's highly relevant to the article/topic?
I know you're not looking for advice, so I'm not going to preach too hard at you, except to say that I recognize the somber lucidity of your tone, and I've been there. Depression's heaviest weapon is that it feels like the heaviest truth. It's a bit like being in a room within a room. If nothing outside can be perceived from within the walls, does it matter that it exists?
I was surprised when I got out – I was sure it couldn't happen to me either. I didn't even realize it was happening to me until months in. Lots of things that I thought were concrete facts about myself and the world turned out to be configurable in ways I was ill equipped to predict until they happened.
There was no secret or epiphany or "one weird trick". I mostly did this by pretending as if being were worthwhile. I wasn't interested in anything that happy, normal people were interested in, like meeting new people or wearing clean clothes. But my crude mental model of those people had enough fidelity to imitate them, at least somewhat. So I did, in earnest. Eventually the mask became the face. We are what we repeatedly do. I lost about 6 years before I started doing that, and it took about another 6 to 9 months before I noticed that anything had changed.
I have to give a lot of credit to a lecture series I was recommended on HN as well: Maps of Meaning, from Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Xc2_FtpHI&list=PL22J3VaeAB...
It's weird stuff. Took some getting through. I don't remember what the first guy said that made me stick with it, but I'm glad I did.
Email's in the profile if you want to chat about whatever. Doesn't have to be serious.
It's never too late. Tonight, it is a fact that at least one person in the world gives a fuck about you.
I was surprised when I got out – I was sure it couldn't happen to me either. I didn't even realize it was happening to me until months in. Lots of things that I thought were concrete facts about myself and the world turned out to be configurable in ways I was ill equipped to predict until they happened.
There was no secret or epiphany or "one weird trick". I mostly did this by pretending as if being were worthwhile. I wasn't interested in anything that happy, normal people were interested in, like meeting new people or wearing clean clothes. But my crude mental model of those people had enough fidelity to imitate them, at least somewhat. So I did, in earnest. Eventually the mask became the face. We are what we repeatedly do. I lost about 6 years before I started doing that, and it took about another 6 to 9 months before I noticed that anything had changed.
I have to give a lot of credit to a lecture series I was recommended on HN as well: Maps of Meaning, from Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Xc2_FtpHI&list=PL22J3VaeAB...
It's weird stuff. Took some getting through. I don't remember what the first guy said that made me stick with it, but I'm glad I did.
Email's in the profile if you want to chat about whatever. Doesn't have to be serious.
It's never too late. Tonight, it is a fact that at least one person in the world gives a fuck about you.
I appreciate your honesty. I can also sometimes hate people, I think that like any other resource, once you have too much of “people” it loses its value.
I don’t believe we are some sacred animal. It feels like many of us, myself included, will just be a net negative to the planet. We are born, we pollute and destroy then we multiply.
Not everyone is meant for living in a society. I don’t believe this makes you a “weak seed” at all.
Not giving advice, just stating a fact, but it was in nature that I found a spiritual connection and a slight purpose. Sure if I was a genius and could contribute major scientific discoveries, purpose would be forthcoming.
Alas I’m not. However leaving nature in a better state when I’m gone, in quiet solitude, doesn’t take a genius or much money or even time.
I don’t believe we are some sacred animal. It feels like many of us, myself included, will just be a net negative to the planet. We are born, we pollute and destroy then we multiply.
Not everyone is meant for living in a society. I don’t believe this makes you a “weak seed” at all.
Not giving advice, just stating a fact, but it was in nature that I found a spiritual connection and a slight purpose. Sure if I was a genius and could contribute major scientific discoveries, purpose would be forthcoming.
Alas I’m not. However leaving nature in a better state when I’m gone, in quiet solitude, doesn’t take a genius or much money or even time.
Was there a time when you were happy? Don't you want to go back there?
Take LSD or mushrooms before you go. Not because it will make you no longer be suicidal, but because it is one of the most powerful experiences that you can achieve in this universe. To die without such experience, is incredible tragedy, especially for someone with your perspective. It also may inform you of ways you can optimize your impact on departure, given your reasoning about being a 'weak seed'.
But its really best if you don't kill yourself.
But its really best if you don't kill yourself.
Telling someone with mental issues to take strong psychotropic drugs for the first time, without anyone to keep an eye of them is one of the most retarded things I've heard in a long time.
[deleted]
They've already decided on suicide, so does it really matter?
Ethically: yeah.
Why?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
The way I see it is if he's made up his mind, then there are really three possible outcomes by suggesting drugs: 1. best case, he feels better, yay! 2. worst case, it makes him worse, he kills himself, but was going to do so anyway. :( 3. he has an interesting experience before the end.
I don't see any ethical issues with suggesting something that if it goes wrong, leads to the same outcome as not doing anything. To me, it seems like he has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I'd like to hear your opposing view, though, so I can understand where the flaw in my reasoning is, if there is one.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
The way I see it is if he's made up his mind, then there are really three possible outcomes by suggesting drugs: 1. best case, he feels better, yay! 2. worst case, it makes him worse, he kills himself, but was going to do so anyway. :( 3. he has an interesting experience before the end.
I don't see any ethical issues with suggesting something that if it goes wrong, leads to the same outcome as not doing anything. To me, it seems like he has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I'd like to hear your opposing view, though, so I can understand where the flaw in my reasoning is, if there is one.
Because you do not know how the trip will impact him. It could be that he self-harms in a way which only makes things permanently worse. It could be that he hurts others during the trip.
There are so many factors which could go badly wrong that it is (in my opinion) unethical to suggest this is a good approach.
There are so many factors which could go badly wrong that it is (in my opinion) unethical to suggest this is a good approach.
Ok, I understand. Thanks!
What if they took some precautions, eg someone was with them to make sure that they don't do any harm (to themselves or others)? People generally recommend that one take psychedelics with a sitter, after all. Or is the concern also about their mental state in the coming days/weeks/however long after the trip?
What if they took some precautions, eg someone was with them to make sure that they don't do any harm (to themselves or others)? People generally recommend that one take psychedelics with a sitter, after all. Or is the concern also about their mental state in the coming days/weeks/however long after the trip?
Don't backtrack yourself. The day I took shrooms was the day I understood my place in the grand organism and the true power unto a god that each person has in their potential and the only inhibitor is how willing they are to confront that level of their own power. I only continue to understand myself and those around me, and how to forge my life to its fullest with every instance I take entheogens.
I have very little respect for hand-wringing types like those above. All it does is plant undue anxiety in a mind that could easily be calm waters. I could go so far as to say I loathe them. But I'm trying hard to see this person's point.
Also, I can't believe I'm becoming active after years again to infodump this. But I can only hope the original parent sees it and knows they're not alone.
Edit to be abundantly clear: Entheogens did nothing short of saving my life. And it has since only been an upward trend. To the extent that I hilariously enough stopped coffee after a powerful experience forced me to observe just what such things can do to anxiety and blood pressure and the like. On an intimate level akin to detached observation from outside a lab. Except one's own mind.
I have very little respect for hand-wringing types like those above. All it does is plant undue anxiety in a mind that could easily be calm waters. I could go so far as to say I loathe them. But I'm trying hard to see this person's point.
Also, I can't believe I'm becoming active after years again to infodump this. But I can only hope the original parent sees it and knows they're not alone.
Edit to be abundantly clear: Entheogens did nothing short of saving my life. And it has since only been an upward trend. To the extent that I hilariously enough stopped coffee after a powerful experience forced me to observe just what such things can do to anxiety and blood pressure and the like. On an intimate level akin to detached observation from outside a lab. Except one's own mind.
This is literally survivorship bias.
The people who were suicidal and who took psycadelics that didn't work for them can't comment here. They're dead.
The people who were suicidal and who took psycadelics that didn't work for them can't comment here. They're dead.
Oh spare me. Not only do I not care to debate pseudo-intellectually in this fashion but my sample size is far beyond myself. Once again, cold cynicism doesn't make you cool. No more than unsubstantiated idealism.
Oh, I’m not backtracking. I personally don’t have any issues with it, I was just trying to understand where AlegedAlec draws the line.
I’ve personally been what some people might call “careless” with drugs in the past, in that I maybe wasn’t the most mentally stable and I’ve taken drugs when others would have warned me not to (eg while depressed) and I personally feel like they helped me through it. Ketamine especially has made a huge difference, even in very small doses, although in large doses it gave me this overwhelming and lasting sense of connectedness with the world. Since I spent a lot of my life struggling with loneliness (and not for lack of friends or people around me), that really really helped me.
I’m glad to hear that you are doing better too!
I’ve personally been what some people might call “careless” with drugs in the past, in that I maybe wasn’t the most mentally stable and I’ve taken drugs when others would have warned me not to (eg while depressed) and I personally feel like they helped me through it. Ketamine especially has made a huge difference, even in very small doses, although in large doses it gave me this overwhelming and lasting sense of connectedness with the world. Since I spent a lot of my life struggling with loneliness (and not for lack of friends or people around me), that really really helped me.
I’m glad to hear that you are doing better too!
I feel you re. integration and connectiveness. I do not envy you for having issues. But I can say that if I waited until I wasn't "depressed" (what does this mean in the wider scope of our stories we tell each other? When you can't know good without the bad? I think we're all depressed else we wouldn't know happiness) I likely would have dropped off a chair instead of dropping some caps and stems.
You have to understand where these mental hangups are coming from sometimes. And it is my most sincere hope the OP can see what all of us are trying to say before letting the abyss take them. I so hope they know we've felt it pulling. Even if they aren't interested in drugs in the least I hope they know they're not alone in any of this.
I'm not a bad enough dood to explore much of these new drugs. Mostly experienced in the classic 3 and once DMT (hope to again someday when I figure out how to make the rig work). But from what I've seen in this thread and vague posts in the past it seems like ketamine offers a very empathic experience.
I'll never forget the day I figured out how to cry again, cry healthily, thanks to these things. Like a ghost of all my missing emotions I sloughed off in the distant past came back to me. It is wonderful.
And can people please, please stop the senseless cynicism in this subthread. I'm being reminded why I stopped posting on HN. No matter what your personal position is. It is ultimately irrelevant to this OP and the energy you're putting into handwringing can easily be put into reminding them of the fact that they are not alone. There's someone right there with them and sharing in it for one reason or another. And we all have a responsibility to take care of them in the same way we do our better selves.
You have to understand where these mental hangups are coming from sometimes. And it is my most sincere hope the OP can see what all of us are trying to say before letting the abyss take them. I so hope they know we've felt it pulling. Even if they aren't interested in drugs in the least I hope they know they're not alone in any of this.
I'm not a bad enough dood to explore much of these new drugs. Mostly experienced in the classic 3 and once DMT (hope to again someday when I figure out how to make the rig work). But from what I've seen in this thread and vague posts in the past it seems like ketamine offers a very empathic experience.
I'll never forget the day I figured out how to cry again, cry healthily, thanks to these things. Like a ghost of all my missing emotions I sloughed off in the distant past came back to me. It is wonderful.
And can people please, please stop the senseless cynicism in this subthread. I'm being reminded why I stopped posting on HN. No matter what your personal position is. It is ultimately irrelevant to this OP and the energy you're putting into handwringing can easily be put into reminding them of the fact that they are not alone. There's someone right there with them and sharing in it for one reason or another. And we all have a responsibility to take care of them in the same way we do our better selves.
If only mentally healthy people took psychedelic drugs, almost nobody would take psychedelic drugs. There is no true answer to who should take them. Even those who seem healthiest among us now could break under the mental strain of these drugs. And those who seem most mentally unhealthy could stand to benefit the most. And to assume that suicidal thoughts equates to someone being dangerous is just as “retarded” as calling the idea of this person taking psychedelic drugs “retarded”.
Thank you, I was going to upvote you and leave it at that. But I can't help but say that listening to hand-wringing busy bodies like the individual above was why I was in a prescription, broken minded hell for 7 years straight before the moment of pure eureka that the entheogenic experience can bring.
They certainly do not help folks like the original poster already prone to anxiety and in need of warm comfort rather than cold cynicism.
I will never understand why people fear that which they do not understand. The more I learn the nature of fear - lies that we tell ourselves and each other - the more I have a distaste for them.
They certainly do not help folks like the original poster already prone to anxiety and in need of warm comfort rather than cold cynicism.
I will never understand why people fear that which they do not understand. The more I learn the nature of fear - lies that we tell ourselves and each other - the more I have a distaste for them.
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where do you people buy this stuff?
I must be the most uncool person in the world :(
I must be the most uncool person in the world :(
Seconding this. LSD and psilocybin provide transportation to a place within unlike any other.
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I’d add ketamine to that list. First start with small doses. A larger dose where you fully dissassociate is quite an experience.
I'll add another one to the list: DMT.
I normally wouldn't recommend it, because, while the good trips are profoundly amazing, I've also heard of some pretty bad ones and unless you have some experience with psychedelics and have good mental health, it can be a traumatic experience, but since the guy has already decided he wishes to die, maybe it doesn't matter.
I personally find Ketamine quite therapeutic, at any dose. The recent research suggests it may be effective as an antidepressant, although I guess its still too early to say for sure that its a good long term medication (and of course, self-medicating is never a great idea).
(Of course, for anyone reading this, please do your own research before doing any drug and be safe!)
I normally wouldn't recommend it, because, while the good trips are profoundly amazing, I've also heard of some pretty bad ones and unless you have some experience with psychedelics and have good mental health, it can be a traumatic experience, but since the guy has already decided he wishes to die, maybe it doesn't matter.
I personally find Ketamine quite therapeutic, at any dose. The recent research suggests it may be effective as an antidepressant, although I guess its still too early to say for sure that its a good long term medication (and of course, self-medicating is never a great idea).
(Of course, for anyone reading this, please do your own research before doing any drug and be safe!)
>It’s my own shortcoming
Physiologically, there's comfort in knowing that your community and government has your back. Increased depression rates, mental health issues rising, and social isolation is a result of living in a Neo-liberal multicultural society. Living in this society where your personal value is based from how much you earn gives arise to a vapid nihilistic existence. When your government doesn't back its residents and its culture, and is forced to belong to everyone to appease international corporations. You can't even feel loyal to organizations that once paid you, or your country you grew up in.
This might sound like a hard left wing or right wing rant. But a feeling of belonging (either to companies, nations, or relgion) is important for many people. This is disappearing from western society.
Physiologically, there's comfort in knowing that your community and government has your back. Increased depression rates, mental health issues rising, and social isolation is a result of living in a Neo-liberal multicultural society. Living in this society where your personal value is based from how much you earn gives arise to a vapid nihilistic existence. When your government doesn't back its residents and its culture, and is forced to belong to everyone to appease international corporations. You can't even feel loyal to organizations that once paid you, or your country you grew up in.
This might sound like a hard left wing or right wing rant. But a feeling of belonging (either to companies, nations, or relgion) is important for many people. This is disappearing from western society.
iSnow(1)
Reading this with my morning coffee, it sure hits hard. I feel for your situation, comrade! I don't have any advice, just wanted to share my experience if you happen to read this.
I've been a Hikikomori, more or less all my life, maybe with autistic tendencies. The thing is, I'm one of the happy ones - like a stray cat who's been taken in by a kind home. It's been fortunate that the condition evolved into a socially acceptable form, with a healthier balance of inside/outside, self/world. But I was very lucky in terms of family, work, relationships, and life could have dealt me with a tougher hand - so much of it was due to "chance".
The word Hikikomori breaks down into 引く (hiku: to pull) and 篭る (komoru: to be confined, to shut oneself up, to hide). This latter word contains some psychological insight, and there's even some positive aspects to "komoru".
One of the meanings is, during war, to go inside one's castle and fight from a protected space. So it's a strategy in a hostile situation.
Another meaning is, to voluntarily withdraw from the world and retreat into a temple, for spiritual search and contemplation.
There's no blame or judgement, it's a personal decision and stance, and there are many ways to go forward. There are people who care about you (or would, if you reach out).
Despite our imperfections, societal/civilizational immaturity - I hope you find healing somehow, to rediscover that it's possible to love being alive, to love people, to love the world. If all that fails, at least I wish that you find peace in your heart.
I've been a Hikikomori, more or less all my life, maybe with autistic tendencies. The thing is, I'm one of the happy ones - like a stray cat who's been taken in by a kind home. It's been fortunate that the condition evolved into a socially acceptable form, with a healthier balance of inside/outside, self/world. But I was very lucky in terms of family, work, relationships, and life could have dealt me with a tougher hand - so much of it was due to "chance".
The word Hikikomori breaks down into 引く (hiku: to pull) and 篭る (komoru: to be confined, to shut oneself up, to hide). This latter word contains some psychological insight, and there's even some positive aspects to "komoru".
One of the meanings is, during war, to go inside one's castle and fight from a protected space. So it's a strategy in a hostile situation.
Another meaning is, to voluntarily withdraw from the world and retreat into a temple, for spiritual search and contemplation.
There's no blame or judgement, it's a personal decision and stance, and there are many ways to go forward. There are people who care about you (or would, if you reach out).
Despite our imperfections, societal/civilizational immaturity - I hope you find healing somehow, to rediscover that it's possible to love being alive, to love people, to love the world. If all that fails, at least I wish that you find peace in your heart.
> The reality is that I was unequipped to build a healthy place in society because I decided a long time ago that I hated being alive and hated people. It's my own shortcoming,
Why is it your shortcoming? Presumably if you decided you hated people and being alive, it's because people treated you bad.
> For a long time, I wondered if it were possible for people to treat each other better and whether that would have changed anything for me.
What was your conclusion?
Why is it your shortcoming? Presumably if you decided you hated people and being alive, it's because people treated you bad.
> For a long time, I wondered if it were possible for people to treat each other better and whether that would have changed anything for me.
What was your conclusion?
I have a very selfish, impolite, and presumptuous request: Your perspective on life in general is very different than mine, and it is clear from this post you are a capable communicator. I would love to listen/read as much more as you're willing to share, written or recorded. I respect if that amount is zero, and realize this is a very selfish request to ask that a piece of you stick around.
This definitely reads like a cry for help to me.
Depression is a disease, and it can make thoughts like this seem rational. They aren't.
Depression is a disease, and it can make thoughts like this seem rational. They aren't.
I think you should listen a bit of Alan Watts. You can start from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_HkQ4-x4P4
If you hate people, why do you care to remove a weak seed from the gene pool? In any case, that would also be accomplished by simply not procreating.
My own recipe against suicidal thoughts is that life is very short anyway. There is little point in shortening it artificially (unless you are in significant pain because of health problems, perhaps).
My own recipe against suicidal thoughts is that life is very short anyway. There is little point in shortening it artificially (unless you are in significant pain because of health problems, perhaps).
> suicide is a valid way to remove a weak seed from the gene pool
The smartest people are always full of doubt. The fact that you can express yourself in coherent sentences without any grammar mistakes makes you already part of the better half of humanity. Besides if you don't procreate you are already removed from the gene pool. No suicide required.
> I’m meditating in preparation for the unknown void of the afterlife.
Be aware that being alive is the only way to experience anything in the universe. When you are dead there will be nothing. There will be no afterlife. Even being a passive observer is preferable to not existing at all. Believing in an afterlife makes it all so easy.
> I’m not in search of advice nor assistance regarding my situation.
Thoughts like the ones you are expressing are very common among people with severe depression. All caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You have to get your shit together. You owe it to your family and friends. What you are doing and planing to do is in fact incredibly selfish. There are many ways to successful get out of this.
The smartest people are always full of doubt. The fact that you can express yourself in coherent sentences without any grammar mistakes makes you already part of the better half of humanity. Besides if you don't procreate you are already removed from the gene pool. No suicide required.
> I’m meditating in preparation for the unknown void of the afterlife.
Be aware that being alive is the only way to experience anything in the universe. When you are dead there will be nothing. There will be no afterlife. Even being a passive observer is preferable to not existing at all. Believing in an afterlife makes it all so easy.
> I’m not in search of advice nor assistance regarding my situation.
Thoughts like the ones you are expressing are very common among people with severe depression. All caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You have to get your shit together. You owe it to your family and friends. What you are doing and planing to do is in fact incredibly selfish. There are many ways to successful get out of this.
You're clearly a good writer, able to express your thoughts eloquently.
But I am not comfortable with letting someone plan to kill themselves without being sure that person is making a reasonable decision. And when it comes to ending your life, you need to be more than sure, so it's worth checking with someone experienced with this.
I hope the HN moderators can do something. I don't think this is like any other comment on HN that everyone can just send out a witty or bold remark in response to.
But I am not comfortable with letting someone plan to kill themselves without being sure that person is making a reasonable decision. And when it comes to ending your life, you need to be more than sure, so it's worth checking with someone experienced with this.
I hope the HN moderators can do something. I don't think this is like any other comment on HN that everyone can just send out a witty or bold remark in response to.
Full title is: New Insights Into Hikikomori – People Who Withdraw From Society For Months or Years On End.
Don't forget that the BPS can sometimes misrepresent the research so you need to be a bit careful with anything from this source.
Don't forget that the BPS can sometimes misrepresent the research so you need to be a bit careful with anything from this source.