Ask HN: Is it possible to move to another country when over 40?
63 comments
I'm a strong supporter of the Scottish Government line on immigration:
Migration is crucial to the development of Scotland as an inclusive, fair, prosperous, innovative country ready and willing to embrace the future. It is essential to our economic prospects and our demographic sustainability that Scotland continues to attract the level and nature of migration it needs. Migration is not just about economic prosperity. It has helped to shape Scotland – just as people born in Scotland have helped to shape nations across the world so people migrating to Scotland have shaped and changed our own country. People from overseas who come to Scotland to live, to study or work, or to raise their families are our friends and neighbours. They strengthen our society and we welcome them.
I can, of course, also recommend Edinburgh - surely one of the worlds great wee cities: "But Edinburgh is a mad god's dream"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/edinburgh-is-the-best
The rest of Scotland is mostly pretty nice as well ;-)
Migration is crucial to the development of Scotland as an inclusive, fair, prosperous, innovative country ready and willing to embrace the future. It is essential to our economic prospects and our demographic sustainability that Scotland continues to attract the level and nature of migration it needs. Migration is not just about economic prosperity. It has helped to shape Scotland – just as people born in Scotland have helped to shape nations across the world so people migrating to Scotland have shaped and changed our own country. People from overseas who come to Scotland to live, to study or work, or to raise their families are our friends and neighbours. They strengthen our society and we welcome them.
I can, of course, also recommend Edinburgh - surely one of the worlds great wee cities: "But Edinburgh is a mad god's dream"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/edinburgh-is-the-best
The rest of Scotland is mostly pretty nice as well ;-)
That's a nice statement, and I agree that Scotland is a lovely country, but is immigration feasible for a random white collar person? What's actually required to gain residency (and is it permanent)? Is there a path to citizenship? And with Brexit looming, will this all change in a few years?
Anecdata - I know several people who are close to getting citizenship, and none of them are top of their field or earning mega £££.
Even if the UK moves to a points-based system post-Brexit, I'd imagine a mid- to late-career software developer or similar would easily be able to clear any 'desirability' / skill requirement and salary hurdles.
(Although trying to predict policy post-Brexit is probably a losing game. There's any range of choices from 'the UK doesn't leave the EU' to 'the UK leaves and Scotland leaves the UK').
Even if the UK moves to a points-based system post-Brexit, I'd imagine a mid- to late-career software developer or similar would easily be able to clear any 'desirability' / skill requirement and salary hurdles.
(Although trying to predict policy post-Brexit is probably a losing game. There's any range of choices from 'the UK doesn't leave the EU' to 'the UK leaves and Scotland leaves the UK').
> Is immigration feasible for a random white collar person?
Probably. It requires finding a job, or having a lot of money, though, as you aren't immigrating to Scotland, but to the UK. UK's visa and immigration website [1] is actually very straight forward and easy to navigate for anyone wanting more info.
> What's actually required to gain residency (and is it permanent)?
There are a few paths to permanent residency (not necessarily citizenship). The simplest is via by getting a job that sponsors your visa and staying at it for 5 years, and then applying for right to remain. You will not be a citizen, but you will have the right to stay regardless of your job, and may be eligible for public funds.
The next best option is the Entrepreneur Visas. Option 1: £200k of your own money (can be from friends, family investors, etc) ready to invest in starting a company, or Option 2: £50k of money from registered UK VC fund or a UK government seed grant (not sure how easy this is).
Both options give you a 3 year visa extendable to 6 years 4 months, and at 5 years, you are eligible for the right to remain in the UK.
> Is there a path to citizenship?
There definitely is, but it is complicated, and maybe unnecessary. There is a kid on YouTube [2] who talks more about this.
> And with Brexit looming, will this all change in a few years?
I'm not a soothsayer, but I'd wager most of my weekly allowance (~$70) on yes.
1: https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzTOmEPYyE
Probably. It requires finding a job, or having a lot of money, though, as you aren't immigrating to Scotland, but to the UK. UK's visa and immigration website [1] is actually very straight forward and easy to navigate for anyone wanting more info.
> What's actually required to gain residency (and is it permanent)?
There are a few paths to permanent residency (not necessarily citizenship). The simplest is via by getting a job that sponsors your visa and staying at it for 5 years, and then applying for right to remain. You will not be a citizen, but you will have the right to stay regardless of your job, and may be eligible for public funds.
The next best option is the Entrepreneur Visas. Option 1: £200k of your own money (can be from friends, family investors, etc) ready to invest in starting a company, or Option 2: £50k of money from registered UK VC fund or a UK government seed grant (not sure how easy this is).
Both options give you a 3 year visa extendable to 6 years 4 months, and at 5 years, you are eligible for the right to remain in the UK.
> Is there a path to citizenship?
There definitely is, but it is complicated, and maybe unnecessary. There is a kid on YouTube [2] who talks more about this.
> And with Brexit looming, will this all change in a few years?
I'm not a soothsayer, but I'd wager most of my weekly allowance (~$70) on yes.
1: https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzTOmEPYyE
Thanks, I'm a Scottish ex-pat, but haven't lived there since I was a wee lad. I never looked into immigration requirements because I can alway renew my British passport (US citizen since college), or get an Irish one via my mother's side of the family.
> It is essential to our economic prospects and our demographic sustainability that Scotland continues to attract the level and nature of migration it needs.
That’s the policy of pretty much every western nation. Which they’ve all benefited from greatly.
That’s the policy of pretty much every western nation. Which they’ve all benefited from greatly.
Admission of failure in stimulating native population to reproduce. To quote Futurama: "Thus solving the problem once and for all"!
So there are a lot of factors that go into this. First, let's consider earning potential:
- What is your earning potential in the US?
- What is your earning potential in [other country]?
- How many years on your current immigration status can you remain in the US?
Context: I'm Australian. I now live and work in the US because the earning potential for a software engineer here is 5x what it is in Australia. As long as you're spending less than you earn you can pack many years of saving into the US in a short period of time so it's worth considering a longer stay even if it is still temporary.
Citizenship:
- What is your current country or countries of citizenship?
- Is your plan to become a citizen of [other country]?
- Do you want to retain your existing citizenship(s)?
- What is your time frame for wanting to gain citizenship?
Some examples:
- You can get Irish citizenship in 4-5 years (IIRC) and can retain your existing citizenship
- Austrian, German and Dutch citizenship (again, IIRC) require you to renounce your existing citizenship to become a citizenship (there are exceptions).
- If your goal is to get EU citizenship because that comes with a lot of benefits like being able to live and work in 27 (or 26 after Brexit) countries.
These are the options I would consider and the reasons why:
1. Ireland. EU citizenship in a relatively short period of time. English-speaking, developed economy and employment opportunities. Also, the country is relatively welcoming to immigration.
2. Canada. This can effectively prolong your stay in the US forever. After gaining Canadian citizenship you can essentially work forever in the US on TN visas.
3. Australia. Relatively easy to get immigration status as a software engineer with a college degree who speaks, reads and writes English (there's a point system). I believe the time frames are relatively short and this too will open up the ability to work in the US via the E3 visa.
There are other factors that come into play too like family situations, long term plans, where you plan to retire, etc.
- What is your earning potential in the US?
- What is your earning potential in [other country]?
- How many years on your current immigration status can you remain in the US?
Context: I'm Australian. I now live and work in the US because the earning potential for a software engineer here is 5x what it is in Australia. As long as you're spending less than you earn you can pack many years of saving into the US in a short period of time so it's worth considering a longer stay even if it is still temporary.
Citizenship:
- What is your current country or countries of citizenship?
- Is your plan to become a citizen of [other country]?
- Do you want to retain your existing citizenship(s)?
- What is your time frame for wanting to gain citizenship?
Some examples:
- You can get Irish citizenship in 4-5 years (IIRC) and can retain your existing citizenship
- Austrian, German and Dutch citizenship (again, IIRC) require you to renounce your existing citizenship to become a citizenship (there are exceptions).
- If your goal is to get EU citizenship because that comes with a lot of benefits like being able to live and work in 27 (or 26 after Brexit) countries.
These are the options I would consider and the reasons why:
1. Ireland. EU citizenship in a relatively short period of time. English-speaking, developed economy and employment opportunities. Also, the country is relatively welcoming to immigration.
2. Canada. This can effectively prolong your stay in the US forever. After gaining Canadian citizenship you can essentially work forever in the US on TN visas.
3. Australia. Relatively easy to get immigration status as a software engineer with a college degree who speaks, reads and writes English (there's a point system). I believe the time frames are relatively short and this too will open up the ability to work in the US via the E3 visa.
There are other factors that come into play too like family situations, long term plans, where you plan to retire, etc.
P.S I would add the U.K to the list, especially London. Might feel a bit less "claustrophobic" than Ireland.
I deliberately left off the UK for several reasons:
1. In the last decade, the politics have definitely shifted to being more anti-immigration than they used to be. For example, it takes at least 6 years to qualify for UK citizenship. This is 5 years to qualify to ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain) and a year of ILR to qualify for citizenship. This used to be 4 years to get ILR (prior to ~2006?).
2. Adding of extra requirements like Living in the UK test and a nebulous "good character" test.
3. Uncertainty over Brexit. It's far from clear what UK citizenship will get you post-Brexit, if Brexit even happens. Given the rise of the Brexit party and the Tories tearing themselves apart with May resigning and a hard Brexiteer like Boris Johnson likely to be the next PM, a hard Brexit has become much more likely. This may also negatively impact the UK economy.
1. In the last decade, the politics have definitely shifted to being more anti-immigration than they used to be. For example, it takes at least 6 years to qualify for UK citizenship. This is 5 years to qualify to ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain) and a year of ILR to qualify for citizenship. This used to be 4 years to get ILR (prior to ~2006?).
2. Adding of extra requirements like Living in the UK test and a nebulous "good character" test.
3. Uncertainty over Brexit. It's far from clear what UK citizenship will get you post-Brexit, if Brexit even happens. Given the rise of the Brexit party and the Tories tearing themselves apart with May resigning and a hard Brexiteer like Boris Johnson likely to be the next PM, a hard Brexit has become much more likely. This may also negatively impact the UK economy.
That's interesting, is it really so easy for a Canadian programmer to get a job in the U.S on a TN visa? Would imagine uncle Trump would put a stop to that by now :)
Canadian living in LA now, it’s very easy as long as you have the right degree. I got in originally working for a pre series A startup as employee #11. Luckily Uncle Trump has to move at the speed of government so he can’t just end NAFTA on a Friday afternoon :)
But he sure did try. I was also a Canadian living LA, but am back in Canada now. Definitely miss it.
Definitely doable, where you are originally from plays a significant role, but many countries will give you a generous visa on entry just for having an American stamp in your passport.
I currently live in Malaysia, they give a 90 day visa on entry and are pretty lenient on reentry as long as you respect the terms of your visa. It's an English speaking country that is developing very quickly but still has a low cost of living. It is at least worth a visit.
The more important question is how you plan on supporting yourself in your new home.
I currently live in Malaysia, they give a 90 day visa on entry and are pretty lenient on reentry as long as you respect the terms of your visa. It's an English speaking country that is developing very quickly but still has a low cost of living. It is at least worth a visit.
The more important question is how you plan on supporting yourself in your new home.
Can confirm, he can get a stay and work permit in the Netherlands rather easily as there's a business treaty between the 2 countries (he will need to be registered as some kind of freelancer though, but that's still pretty sweet). But he probably won't even need it, experience from the U.S is valued, he will likely find an employer to sponsor him.
My understanding is that he can't work on that Visa and he'll be doing visa-runs through some border. Potentially being rejected entry at one point.
The fact that you're in the US already on a working visa suggests that you're perhaps far more valuable than you think. I think you'll do just fine.
I agree, it's VERY hard to get the U.S. I couldn't do it. Didn't try that hard but there are so many obstacles I just "settled" for Europe.
Not really. I checked with my employer, and they told me it is at least a 10 year wait for GC, for my case. I'd like to start something of my own, but apparently it is not possible and I don't feel like waiting for a decade (for something that is not guaranteed anyway).
I don't think I am special or valuable. I guess I was lucky to come to U.S, but not lucky enough to stay here all my life.
I don't think I am special or valuable. I guess I was lucky to come to U.S, but not lucky enough to stay here all my life.
> I don't think I am special or valuable.
A lot of people in tech feel like that. It's not true. Don't let the impostor syndrome affect your decisions.
> I guess I was lucky to come to U.S, but not lucky enough to stay here all my life.
If you were not Indian, you would not have this problem.
This is a great time to settle in another country. Tech is booming everywhere, and this is reflected in the immigration policies of a lot of countries.
A lot of people in tech feel like that. It's not true. Don't let the impostor syndrome affect your decisions.
> I guess I was lucky to come to U.S, but not lucky enough to stay here all my life.
If you were not Indian, you would not have this problem.
This is a great time to settle in another country. Tech is booming everywhere, and this is reflected in the immigration policies of a lot of countries.
I moved to Norway a little over a year ago, and was 41 at the time. It was pretty straightforward for me, as my employer has an office here in Oslo, so it was just an internal transfer, and they took care of all the paperwork. I'm not all that familiar with the Norwegian immigration restrictions, either generally or for Indian nationals, but it definitely happens. We hire immigrants fairly often, although mostly from EU / EEC countries (Norway is not in the EU, but it participates in many of the economic agreements, so things are probably smoother for EU residents / citizens).
I'm definitely slower at learning the language than I was the last time that I moved abroad, 25 years ago. On the other hand, Norwegians are generally pretty fluent in English, and our office defaults to English, as we are perhaps 10-15% non-Norwegian. But on the other hand, I probably would be learning faster if that were not the case...
Regarding employment within the US: if you have an H-1B visa, bear in mind that it's fairly straightforward to change to a different job with one. I've done a transfer for a new hire at a startup once, and know others who have done so a number of times.
I'm definitely slower at learning the language than I was the last time that I moved abroad, 25 years ago. On the other hand, Norwegians are generally pretty fluent in English, and our office defaults to English, as we are perhaps 10-15% non-Norwegian. But on the other hand, I probably would be learning faster if that were not the case...
Regarding employment within the US: if you have an H-1B visa, bear in mind that it's fairly straightforward to change to a different job with one. I've done a transfer for a new hire at a startup once, and know others who have done so a number of times.
> Norway is not in the EU, but it participates in many of the economic agreements, so things are probably smoother for EU residents / citizens
Norway is in the EEA (European Economic Area), which has the same right of freedom of movement as the European Union.
Any EU or EEA citizen can move to any other EU or EEA country, find a job within X months (6 in the case of Norway), or meet the requirement some other way (be a student, be a partner or child of a worker/student, or have enough money) and then stay.
For the ordinary case of an EU/EEA person moving to Norway to start a job, they simply need to register as resident (fill in a short form and show the job contract and their passport) at the local police station.
Norway is in the EEA (European Economic Area), which has the same right of freedom of movement as the European Union.
Any EU or EEA citizen can move to any other EU or EEA country, find a job within X months (6 in the case of Norway), or meet the requirement some other way (be a student, be a partner or child of a worker/student, or have enough money) and then stay.
For the ordinary case of an EU/EEA person moving to Norway to start a job, they simply need to register as resident (fill in a short form and show the job contract and their passport) at the local police station.
Your visa is tied to your employer, correct? Don't you find that annoying?
If I lose my job, I need to find a new one with a similar title within 6 months. And I can only receive a salary from one company at a time -- no paid side gigs. So it's somewhat tied to my employment status, but more like a generous H-1B and less like an L1.
Dine medarbeidere kan snakke om deg bak ryggen din.
I’m getting good enough to keep them on their toes... I think!
Of course it is. I moved from the Netherlands to Sweden at 37, not that far from your age. Find a country which fits your needs and wants and start exploring the possibilities. Make sure you're able to learn the language of whatever country you plan to move to or you'll have a hard time integrating/assimilating (depending on the country and your preferences), make sure not to end up in an enclave of compatriots and don't undersell yourself. There is plenty of work for developers in most 'western' countries so in that respect you should be OK.
You moved within the EU. That’s far easier than it is for a non-EU citizen (which I assume is OP’s case).
It's fairly possible though for a non-EU citizens. I moved to Sweden from outside EU when I was 36 with a family (got job as a developer). It took 5 years from work permit to Swedish pasport.
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Of course it's possible. You will probably find countries with way more relaxed immigration processes, e.g Germany, Netherlands, Canada, Australia etc. Is it advisable? I really can't tell without knowing you and your situation. I moved to the Netherlands 2 years ago, am 35. Don't think age makes such a big difference in this thing. Did you explore all possibilities in the U.S? I would even consult a lawyer. You are already there, so it makes sense for you to explore all your options before you decide to leave.
Could you please talk a bit more about your Holland immigration experience? I will do my homework of course, but it would be good to hear from someone who has done it.
Regarding US - yes, I did explore, it doesn't seem that promising. I still have about 2 years left, so it is possible something might change, but I am not optimistic
Regarding US - yes, I did explore, it doesn't seem that promising. I still have about 2 years left, so it is possible something might change, but I am not optimistic
Basic official info to start the homework: https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx
Holland is quite easy to get into for skilled people. I don't know your field but if you're in IT, finance or anything healthcare you should be fine.
Your salary will take a hit though, it's not the salaries you're used to from the U.S
That said, life might be way less stressful for you. It's just a different world, quite impossible to determine how you would like it before you try it. Weather is a bitch though, think Seattle or something like that. Work life balance is amazing here and throughout most Europe.
I am okay with cold/wet weather, not a problem for me.
I've worked with Europeans before (French mostly) and am familiar with the work life balance :) Kinda jealous of it :P
I've worked with Europeans before (French mostly) and am familiar with the work life balance :) Kinda jealous of it :P
okay, I'll explore, thank you. I am not too particular about my salary, as long as I can sustain myself, I am happy. I live a very simple life
Europe or Canada sound like a good option for you my friend, good luck! I'm not sure about Australia never done any research over it since it's too far for me
Finland, but you have to have a job here first to get recidecy and after maybe 5 years of working and living here you can apply for citizenship:
-https://migri.fi/en/working-in-finland
-https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/helsinki-software-developer-jo...
-http://www.te-palvelut.fi/te/en/jobseekers/work_finland/inde...
-https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship
Anything is possible
Are you willing to make it happen?
But move to a country with good health-care system.
Absolutely possible. Your age should not stop you. The only thing is how rooted you are there now, but where there's a will, there's a way. Anyhow, if you really would have to move because of Visa stuff, then it's better not to wait till the last moment.
The main things to consider are possessions and relationships.
- What will you do with your possessions? Move them or sell them? - Do you have family? Will you be moving alone?
As for where, this again, depends. Does your citizenship country offer you to have a pool of countries you can choose from without too many problems (i.e. are you from the EU?) What would be your requirements for moving to the country of your dreams? Could you find someone to sponsor your Visa should you need to?
The main things to consider are possessions and relationships.
- What will you do with your possessions? Move them or sell them? - Do you have family? Will you be moving alone?
As for where, this again, depends. Does your citizenship country offer you to have a pool of countries you can choose from without too many problems (i.e. are you from the EU?) What would be your requirements for moving to the country of your dreams? Could you find someone to sponsor your Visa should you need to?
I don't have family or possessions, so it is not an issue.
I am not from EU, and my nationality gives zero advantage, unfortunately - that is why I posted the question in the first place :(
I am not from EU, and my nationality gives zero advantage, unfortunately - that is why I posted the question in the first place :(
Can you at least hint us the region you are from? Do you think it'll hurt you in your visa/emigration process?
When you say 'nationality gives zero advantage' I think you're from somewhere that is regarded as 'worrisome' by some prejudice-filled cultures, like you're from the middle east.
When you say 'nationality gives zero advantage' I think you're from somewhere that is regarded as 'worrisome' by some prejudice-filled cultures, like you're from the middle east.
India. As far as I know, my passport doesn't give me any advantage
I'd say quite the opposite.
Lots of good tech workers coming from India, and if you already landed an US job, I'd say your chances of landing it anywhere else are pretty good.
As other people stated, having a american worker visa stamped on your passport is gonna help you a lot along the way.
Lots of good tech workers coming from India, and if you already landed an US job, I'd say your chances of landing it anywhere else are pretty good.
As other people stated, having a american worker visa stamped on your passport is gonna help you a lot along the way.
A lot of Indians have opted to move to Canada. I'm an Indian (in India) in my late 30s and know half a dozen people who have migrated to Canada. Citizenship is relatively easy to get as well.
Germany has a fairly liberal immigration policy. If you have a college degree that they recognize and earn a reasonable salary you can get a Blue Card which gets you permanent residency after 21 months and citizenship after 6 years if you learn some German. Salaries are significantly less than in the U.S., but the differential has been decreasing in recent years.
Argentina.
I'm not aware of all of the details, but I visited last fall. They basically allow anyone to immigrate. It's technically illegal to overstay your visa, but it's ILLEGAL to discriminate against people for doing so, and it's very easy to get permanent residency even if you do so.
Look into it.
I'm not aware of all of the details, but I visited last fall. They basically allow anyone to immigrate. It's technically illegal to overstay your visa, but it's ILLEGAL to discriminate against people for doing so, and it's very easy to get permanent residency even if you do so.
Look into it.
My parents did it twice in their 40s. I had to help them learn the language and assimilate but it's doable. That said, moving to the US was much easier than to another European country.
For what its worth, when my family moved from Russia to US both my parents were 43. I was 19, my brother was 11 and we had a grandmother in her 70s with us. So yes, it is possible.
Yes it is possible. Check out Ireland, it has many companies who would hire you. Ageism is not a problem in Europe as much as it is in the US. Germany also a great option.
Totally!
Start applying and researching, there are a number of ways to do it. Have you looked at positions and do you know where you would like to go?
Start applying and researching, there are a number of ways to do it. Have you looked at positions and do you know where you would like to go?
I don't have too much preference on where I want to go, I do know where I don't want to go - I don't want to go to countries where my visa is tied to an employer, I also don't want to go to overly religious places (like UAE etc). I prefer English speaking countries, but that is not a deal breaker.
Sorry for pestering you about Holland but it's the only example I know first hand. In Holland your visa is tied to the employer (though its way easier to switch employers, unlike moving visas in the U.S which for some reason is a nasty process). After 5 years in the country you are eligible to take the citizenship tests (which consist of language test of about B level as far as I know and not too hard general knowledge about Netherlands). This is definitely more relaxed then the U.S , no ?
what are the salaries like in holland for senior devs?
65-75k Euro, 75 is very high but attainable. For someone from the U.S this should be very low.
Yes, it is WAY more relaxed from the way you are describing. Is there any way to contact you, if that is okay with you?
Ya go for it, there are a ton of places you can start the process and I think you will find some parts of Europe have really improved the process (gathered from friends who have done it in Germany and the Netherlands).
one of my co-workers (a patent agent) moved from venezuela to america when he was 35 years old and then moved to australia from america when he was about 40...he is now a lawyer, and he never went to law school!
Why not go "remote" work and live wherever(possible) you want?
You said you have 10 year wait for green card. So you must be either from India or China.
Canada's express entry is the best option for you if you can sacrifice a pay cut. All other countries are turning anti immigrant nowadays. So tread carefully in case of other countries.
IMO, money is not all that important when compared with the high levels of stress, anxiety and uncertainty about the future in US when you are on H1B.
I went that route (express entry) and never looked back and is doing well and settled in Canada without any regrets. The tech scene is getting better in Canada.
Canada's express entry is the best option for you if you can sacrifice a pay cut. All other countries are turning anti immigrant nowadays. So tread carefully in case of other countries.
IMO, money is not all that important when compared with the high levels of stress, anxiety and uncertainty about the future in US when you are on H1B.
I went that route (express entry) and never looked back and is doing well and settled in Canada without any regrets. The tech scene is getting better in Canada.
I would like to move to a different country, but I am 41 now. Is it realistically possible to move to another country? If yes, which ones would you recommend? I have less than 2 years to get ready, before my current work permit runs out.
To clarify : I am not super smart like many of the HN folks here and I don't have any money to invest. I am just a normal dev, who likes to build interesting and useful things and I am a pretty good worker.
Any advice?