Ventilen, a Danish organization to address loneliness in young people(qz.com)
qz.com
Ventilen, a Danish organization to address loneliness in young people
https://qz.com/1591563/the-danish-have-designed-a-simple-way-to-cope-with-loneliness/
83 comments
Are you volunteering at https://www.hackyourfuture.net by any chance?
Yah! They're really nice folks.
We are also in Denmark! Feel free to reach out if you're living in Copenhagen :)
https://www.hackyourfuture.dk/
Interesting, too bad they're not where I currently live (Munich, DE).
Is there something like this in Berlin?
Is this Amsterdam? Sounds like the perfect description!
Sounds like Sweden to me.
If there's an organisation in Sweden doing the same thing, I'd love to know about it. I might be inclined to volunteer there.
Inicio[0] is the closest I know of (in Kista). They are very nice people who do good work, but since it's mostly targeted towards students their events tend to be during working hours.
[0]: http://www.meetinicio.org/
[0]: http://www.meetinicio.org/
Same
In Amsterdam!
Do you remember the post? Trying to find.
This is a big problem in modern society especially for young adults. We're not meant for this. I know it's a bit "Hararish" to look it this way but really: "Yesterday" we were just living in small tribes together and being lonely was hard to imagine. Now you can end up having everyone you call a 'friend' on the other side of some screen and end up totally friendless in your 20's.
What exacerbates it is that modern venues for finding someone to connect with, are all heavily controlled and/or monetized.
Services like OKCupid actually actively hinder relevant matches unless you pay them and keep paying them. Places like Reddit are hit and miss, heavily dependent on the time you post, and you not only have to risk your privacy to find good matches, you have to gain the approval of everyone else who could remove your post from visibility.
I miss IRC, but of course even that was far from perfect, and had its own risks.
This isn't just about dating, but finding friends with similar interests at all.
With 8 billion people on the planet and all the connectivity, you'd think this would be easier for everyone by now.
Services like OKCupid actually actively hinder relevant matches unless you pay them and keep paying them. Places like Reddit are hit and miss, heavily dependent on the time you post, and you not only have to risk your privacy to find good matches, you have to gain the approval of everyone else who could remove your post from visibility.
I miss IRC, but of course even that was far from perfect, and had its own risks.
This isn't just about dating, but finding friends with similar interests at all.
With 8 billion people on the planet and all the connectivity, you'd think this would be easier for everyone by now.
For some of us IRC never went away. It’s my primary social outlet, and I’m closing in on 30.
Maybe I’m a bit special as I moved countries a fair bit in my 20s, and making friends in adulthood is difficult.
Shameless plug; if you want to join us (we are roughly 400 people) then the network is ircs://irc.drk.sc:6697/#darkscience
Maybe I’m a bit special as I moved countries a fair bit in my 20s, and making friends in adulthood is difficult.
Shameless plug; if you want to join us (we are roughly 400 people) then the network is ircs://irc.drk.sc:6697/#darkscience
Please be careful! Posting links to these kind of small communities on much larger ones has a way of diluting what makes them so great in the first place - or at least severely irritating the regulars.
I understand where you're coming from, but the concept of "regulars" is one of the things that can hinder newcomers from fitting in, adding to the loneliness and isolation epidemic.
Feeling like an outsider is hard to overcome and requires effort from both parties, but it's better if a community does not make a distinction between "outsiders/newbies" versus "regulars" to begin with.
Feeling like an outsider is hard to overcome and requires effort from both parties, but it's better if a community does not make a distinction between "outsiders/newbies" versus "regulars" to begin with.
One of the saving graces of IRC is that the technical barriers to using it (compared to discord, etc) are high enough to keep out the riff raff.
> making friends in adulthood is difficult.
That's the issue. And it's exponentially harder if you weren't able to make friends in childhood either.
Can we make it a little easier through tech?
That's the issue. And it's exponentially harder if you weren't able to make friends in childhood either.
Can we make it a little easier through tech?
Exactly, applications like Tinder or OkCupid are made to push you to spend money. Social websites like Facebook or Twitter show personalized ads or monetize your data.
If you're someone with difficulties to meet new people, you're an easy target.
If you're someone with difficulties to meet new people, you're an easy target.
<<-- She developed chronic pain because she did not move enough. “I didn’t want to leave my home because I didn’t need to, and everyone was very busy.” -->>
As a loner, I avoid this by making sure I walk 10,000 steps a day. I go for walk in a nearby park, morning and evening, each 45 minutes. I also use this time, to catch up on music, podcast or anything I can listen to.
As a loner, I avoid this by making sure I walk 10,000 steps a day. I go for walk in a nearby park, morning and evening, each 45 minutes. I also use this time, to catch up on music, podcast or anything I can listen to.
> As a loner, I avoid this by making sure I walk 10,000 steps a day.
Can't recommend this enough, though you need to be in a "walkable" enough city. It's one of the best breaks you can take especially if you sit at a desk most of the day.
I love discovering urban nooks and crannies that I would miss if I took a car or train. The Apple Watch or any other tracker that can map your route etc. can help with that a lot.
Can't recommend this enough, though you need to be in a "walkable" enough city. It's one of the best breaks you can take especially if you sit at a desk most of the day.
I love discovering urban nooks and crannies that I would miss if I took a car or train. The Apple Watch or any other tracker that can map your route etc. can help with that a lot.
what do you mean walkable city? a walkable city you do 10k steps without even noticing! a US city that is not NY or boston in summer you have to drive to a park/beach like you would to a gym, do your steps and drive back home.
Ventilen, or “friend to one” in Danish,
- Edit after coffee: "Ven til en" actually means "friend of one". Amazing how faulty pattern recognition can lead you astray.
I think a more appropriate translation would be 'friend for one', as it can be read as an offer. »Ven til en« is obviously an unusual way of phrasing it, but replace »ven« with any commodity you can purchase, then it sounds more like an offer (a free one, that is).
That being said, 'friend of one' is definitely an accurate translation as well. And 'friend to one' is just the literal translation. I wonder how they pronounce it, »ven til en« or »ventilen«.
That being said, 'friend of one' is definitely an accurate translation as well. And 'friend to one' is just the literal translation. I wonder how they pronounce it, »ven til en« or »ventilen«.
Ok I'm Swedish, but my reading is "friend of someone" combined with "friend of you". It's hard to explain but it holds these 2 meanings very closely.
Plus the pun of "valve" in the same word, which is also fitting, for letting out steam.
Besides it sounds great in English. Sounds like a new expensive drug. Imagine the TV commercial: "Contact your doctor to learn if Ventilen is for you. May cause hair loss, liver failure and bla bla bla. "
Plus the pun of "valve" in the same word, which is also fitting, for letting out steam.
Besides it sounds great in English. Sounds like a new expensive drug. Imagine the TV commercial: "Contact your doctor to learn if Ventilen is for you. May cause hair loss, liver failure and bla bla bla. "
There Salbutamol, marketed as Ventolin, used to treat asthma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salbutamol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salbutamol
It's a nice play on words.
Ventilen would still make sense in this setting :)
Love countries who acknowledge and at least attempt to tackle such issues.
Denmark is somewhat more extreme in that regard because people often retain their friendships from primary school or kindergarten so social circles are very difficult to enter for latecomers e.g. if you have moved cities within the country or came from abroad.
Of course, not universally true but it is pretty common and the woman in the article does mention moving cities.
Of course, not universally true but it is pretty common and the woman in the article does mention moving cities.
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Last year Britain appointed a Minister for Loneliness.
This highlights why golf is such a great sport. Four hours of emotional rollercoaster spent in nature your friends (or other members at your club you just happen to go the round with).
Loneliness is based on a feeling of disconnectedness, but what are you disconnected from? Please see you cannot be alive and disconnected, you are always connected to the rest of the universe.
Does it mean you always have people you are comfortable with who are saying nice things to you? No, everyone has it's own life, views, interests and it's entirely possible no one around you shares yours. So what, people are different.
I think society puts too much stress on it that everyone has to have a bunch of friends, fellows, do birthday parties, shopping and whatever is fashionable in that place. And people who don't have it at some point in life get stressed.
On the other hand, being alone means guess what? Freedom - you don't have to belong anymore, you don't have to share opinions or views, you don't have to fit someone's "standards". You can go and do what you want without having to share time and energy with others. It's a great thing many glorify, talk about and complain about not having it. But if they get it most people freak out and turn the possibility into a problem.
In other words, if one finds himself in this position it's a personal choice to be free or be lonely.
Does it mean you always have people you are comfortable with who are saying nice things to you? No, everyone has it's own life, views, interests and it's entirely possible no one around you shares yours. So what, people are different.
I think society puts too much stress on it that everyone has to have a bunch of friends, fellows, do birthday parties, shopping and whatever is fashionable in that place. And people who don't have it at some point in life get stressed.
On the other hand, being alone means guess what? Freedom - you don't have to belong anymore, you don't have to share opinions or views, you don't have to fit someone's "standards". You can go and do what you want without having to share time and energy with others. It's a great thing many glorify, talk about and complain about not having it. But if they get it most people freak out and turn the possibility into a problem.
In other words, if one finds himself in this position it's a personal choice to be free or be lonely.
Interesting the Carnegie foundation did something similar in the UK around 1941 and set up 18 Plus after they did a study called "Disinherited Youth".
And there is "our" competitor Rotaract the youth arm of Rotory - they tend a bit more to charity though.
And there is "our" competitor Rotaract the youth arm of Rotory - they tend a bit more to charity though.
It is better than nothing, but is not scalable. We at nothing_here building a tool which will help fight loneliness online. (I have removed the link, not really trying to sell anything to anyone)
Humans talking to other humans in the local area and doing things together exists all over the world and has done since the dawn of time, what part of it isn't scalable?
Thanks furi, good point.
Humans indeed talked to each other and have done things together since the dawn of time. But the problem is that our way of living has changed significantly during recent years.
Most of the people simply don't have the possibility to gather around and talk about their life/problems. It is becoming a luxury to have a live talk with a real person.
I am sure that the above mentioned organization is doing great job helping people, but the answer to your question why it is not scalable is that such approach can help only to a very limited amount of people. Why ?
Because: - meeting in person is not always possible - meeting in persion is not always desirable - it is limited only to local areas
Most of the people simply don't have the possibility to gather around and talk about their life/problems. It is becoming a luxury to have a live talk with a real person.
I am sure that the above mentioned organization is doing great job helping people, but the answer to your question why it is not scalable is that such approach can help only to a very limited amount of people. Why ?
Because: - meeting in person is not always possible - meeting in persion is not always desirable - it is limited only to local areas
The fact that you see real-life interaction with other people in any meaningful way as a luxury or even possibly undesirable is so incredibly problematic (to an almost pathological degree) that I am genuinely worried for you.
1) Not always possible? Attack the reason why. It's often either work or study, which can be changed given enough political pressure, or kids, which sometimes can be included, sometimes not
2) Undesirable? Please elaborate.
3) Transportation widens local for the rich to a wide area for few day trips, which is a scheduling problem. For a day trip, mark a circle with 8h travel diameter. It is relatively far, yet here we are, anonymous in cities.
2) Undesirable? Please elaborate.
3) Transportation widens local for the rich to a wide area for few day trips, which is a scheduling problem. For a day trip, mark a circle with 8h travel diameter. It is relatively far, yet here we are, anonymous in cities.
1) physically impossible - large distances, time consuming, fear
2) it is hard to discuss many (if not most) personal issues in personal or in group meetings. Suicidal thoughts, depression, life advice - you cannot simply go out there and discuss all these during your first/tenth meeting with a person in private.
2) it is hard to discuss many (if not most) personal issues in personal or in group meetings. Suicidal thoughts, depression, life advice - you cannot simply go out there and discuss all these during your first/tenth meeting with a person in private.
You probably want to emphasize what you bring to the table, and de emphasize what other approaches are not.
This discussion started not because your product idea is bad, but rather because your pitch included trying to tell us that what this Danish group has been doing is not scalable, even though they are doing it since decades with great success. This felt like saying it is somehow the wrong approach.
I think you can add to society with such a chat app, but there is a lot of indication that quality personal interaction is superior, and there are many many groups, even anonymous consulting etc, who have tackled these issues for decades! That clearly is scale, look at AA.
For example, one may also say that non anonymous and close connections, the opposite of what you offer in your app, is precisely the point of this Danish initiative, and your app really targets different issues. In that view, your comment seemed rather flippant. When pitching your app, you probably avoid seeming ignorant of the actual issue at stake.
Best of luck to you
This discussion started not because your product idea is bad, but rather because your pitch included trying to tell us that what this Danish group has been doing is not scalable, even though they are doing it since decades with great success. This felt like saying it is somehow the wrong approach.
I think you can add to society with such a chat app, but there is a lot of indication that quality personal interaction is superior, and there are many many groups, even anonymous consulting etc, who have tackled these issues for decades! That clearly is scale, look at AA.
For example, one may also say that non anonymous and close connections, the opposite of what you offer in your app, is precisely the point of this Danish initiative, and your app really targets different issues. In that view, your comment seemed rather flippant. When pitching your app, you probably avoid seeming ignorant of the actual issue at stake.
Best of luck to you
Good on you, but i think chat apps are not the solution.
For physical and mental health, we need real face to face connections, in person and not online. Young people use many chat apps and even topic based groups and sites, set depression and health problems keep increasing.
The more we are in front of a screen, the harder it is to actually be with others. And this is what we need as humans.
For physical and mental health, we need real face to face connections, in person and not online. Young people use many chat apps and even topic based groups and sites, set depression and health problems keep increasing.
The more we are in front of a screen, the harder it is to actually be with others. And this is what we need as humans.
this.
It will be different for different people perhaps, but personally I prefer seeing someone every few years even over chatting regularly.
I think you just have to look at how people treat each other online vs irl when not necessarily friendly (ie. work) to know that spending time face to face is essential for healthy social interaction.
I think you just have to look at how people treat each other online vs irl when not necessarily friendly (ie. work) to know that spending time face to face is essential for healthy social interaction.
I agree that real face to face connection is the best for many cases, but is a luxury nowadays and doesn't work for all.
Yeah and this group tries to make it less of a luxury and more of a regular thing. Thats is what we should strive for.
I really do think that our body has a different physical reaction to being close with others. We are monkeys, basically. Lonely monkeys dont do well.
I really do think that our body has a different physical reaction to being close with others. We are monkeys, basically. Lonely monkeys dont do well.
100%. There are many biological processes that create bonding through physical proximity and touch. You may make great friends online but the physical component can't be ignored.
A social circle does not scale to begin with. Rather than introducing something very close to a buzzword and presenting an alternative which aims to (as you claim) solve a similar problem, perhaps you can tell the reader why you think scalability is important and what makes you think that you can solve loneliness at scale where every other large-scale online community has (I think pretty obviously) failed.
Improving on your original point in this way will take it from what it is now (an advertisement, IMO pretty undesirable) to what it could be: Informative and helpful to those suffering from what the news article purports this company addresses.
Improving on your original point in this way will take it from what it is now (an advertisement, IMO pretty undesirable) to what it could be: Informative and helpful to those suffering from what the news article purports this company addresses.
Krageon, I've removed any mention of the service I am building and left more answers related to your message =>
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20360002#20360713
I appreciate that you took the time to do so, not everyone does.
It's nice to see someone trying to tackle these kind of problems. Hard to fix, possible to somewhat improve.
loneliness is a much bigger problem for older people. why not start there?
Well you are wrong. People between 65-79 years are the least lonely cohort in Denmark. People over 85 are as lonely as the 19 to 29 year olds.[0]
[0] https://www.maryfonden.dk/da/presse-ensom-befolkning
[0] https://www.maryfonden.dk/da/presse-ensom-befolkning
Maybe GP means older as middle aged. I'm 40, moved countries four times in the last ten years, and after moving back to the US three years ago I haven't made a single friend. Since I was able to make many friends elsewhere I place some of the blame on American culture, but a lot of it is simply that people over 35 are settled in their ways and don't go out much.
I'm sure teens and twentysomethings can feel plenty lonely. But I imagine as an example a young adult girl won't have much trouble striking up a relationship with a 50-60+ man if they really wanted to. It might be awkward and they might have little in common but the younger party could have it anytime they wanted. Now reverse the situation for a 50-60 year old man seeking companionship among young adult girls and see how far you get.
There are other organizations tackling that issue.
People doing something to benefit others should not be looked down on just because they could spend their time tackling another problem.
People doing something to benefit others should not be looked down on just because they could spend their time tackling another problem.
The article states it is a large problem for young people.
How do you know it is a bigger problem for old people?
How do you know it is a bigger problem for old people?
It is one of those problems which has a tendency to cumulate. Fewer friends you have earlier, fewer you have later in life still.
Well connected people tend to stay that way.
Well connected people tend to stay that way.
common sense and observation, its relatively easier for a person overall to make connections during schooling years. Once people pair up and disperse into the workplace and especially after they start up families it becomes much more difficult for the odd man out.
All the better to try to tackle the problem early on.
I find the fact that you got downvoted and the subdued scorn of some of the replies you got quite "amusing".
Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here. Also, posturing over the rest of the community isn't helpful. If you know more, share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn from you.
Also, please note that the site guidelines ask: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Also, please note that the site guidelines ask: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Gatekeeping loneliness is hardly constructive.
Suggesting people start by solving larger problems before smaller ones is equally not constructive.
Why focus on loneliness at all when you can tackle climate change instead?
Suggesting people start by solving larger problems before smaller ones is equally not constructive.
Why focus on loneliness at all when you can tackle climate change instead?
Your idea of constructive leaves a bit to be desired.
[deleted]
How is it not constructive to point out that the original comment is simply whataboutism? Just because another problem exists doesn't mean it is pointless to work on a related problem. Otherwise, one could easily make the point that climate change is a bigger problem than social isolation for older people, so any group attempting to alleviate that problem is wasting their time.
It sounds like they're tackling isolation, not loneliness. There is a vital distinction between the two.
I would assume that it's rather difficult to help loneliness in isolated individuals?
Isolation as a problem is a big deal and worth addressing.
However, the most lonely people I've met are those who have no problem finding other people to be around.
However, the most lonely people I've met are those who have no problem finding other people to be around.
For clarification, I assume the opposite of isolation would be connectedness? And what would be the opposite of loneliness?
Friendship or more.
Of which not being isolated is an important component, necessary but not sufficient.
Of which not being isolated is an important component, necessary but not sufficient.
belongingness (fulfilled) ?
The funny thing about this is the work isn't very different from what I'd be doing on a day to day. Code reviews and a little bit of teaching. It's not that I feel I'm doing an especially large amount of good, I think my day-job definitely outpaces the volunteering in terms of net good done in the world. But there is something about community that's incredibly powerful.