Microsoft Attempting to Destroy the Careers of Its Critics(techrights.org)
techrights.org
Microsoft Attempting to Destroy the Careers of Its Critics
http://techrights.org/2019/06/20/microsoft-bullying/
21 comments
> This article veers into conspiracist territory as it goes on, with the idea that Microsoft is engaged in some grand, secret scheme to infiltrate open source and destroy it from the inside.
I don't think that's an unfounded fear, given their history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
I don't think that's an unfounded fear, given their history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
Reminder that - as the wiki mentions - the extinguish part is not a direct action from Microsoft, but the outcome of the "extend" part with Microsoft's competitors being unable to keep up. For this to work you need an environment where "something" can be embraced and extended, having competitors that implement that "something" independently and finally them being able to keep up - thus making Microsoft the defacto owner of that "something", which also gives them control over continuing it or stopping it.
If Microsoft is not able to exclusively control something, they cannot extinguish it, even if they embrace and extend it.
If Microsoft is not able to exclusively control something, they cannot extinguish it, even if they embrace and extend it.
I've worked for MS for 20 years. I sat in one of those Steve Ballmer meetings where he decried OpenSource. But, more soberingly at the time was that he said "we won't sell on Linux because we simply don't know now", in answer to the question "when will SQL Server be available on Linux"?
Times have changed. I mean look, we bought GitHub. That's not a move of someone that's trying to destroy from the inside. If it were, we would have immediately just slow rolled it, but we're actually making improvements.
I don't think we're collectively smart enough (nor are most orgs) to pull off grand conspiracies. Just a bunch of humans trying to do what's right for the company and customers.
So, I agree with your assessment. Lots of good, still bad actors, modern times have changed.
Times have changed. I mean look, we bought GitHub. That's not a move of someone that's trying to destroy from the inside. If it were, we would have immediately just slow rolled it, but we're actually making improvements.
I don't think we're collectively smart enough (nor are most orgs) to pull off grand conspiracies. Just a bunch of humans trying to do what's right for the company and customers.
So, I agree with your assessment. Lots of good, still bad actors, modern times have changed.
Yes, times change. Now MS is not the top dog anymore, Amazon, Apple, Google and Facebook are all eating his lunch. There is competition. So they can't get away with acting like the old MS. The marketing people figured that out, and are just adjusting. Business as usual.
I've never seen a deeply flawed self-enclosed cultured turned into a sane one. I've seen ones change because they were so much injected with outside influenced. I've seen ones change because the core was alright, and it recognized the problem. But never have I seen a team of bullies sticking together and turn into good people.
However, I have seen plenty of them putting up a smile, getting some green paint on and buying a stairway to heaven.
It's a shame people keep falling for it though. That's why politicians can be crooked. That's why abusive relationships last. That's why you can pollute, use children workers and lie to customers: by the time you pay the price, it's a slap on the wrist compared to what you did, and earned from it.
Then you just say you changed, and people forget or forgive, let you keep the loot, and the right to carry on with your business.
I've never seen a deeply flawed self-enclosed cultured turned into a sane one. I've seen ones change because they were so much injected with outside influenced. I've seen ones change because the core was alright, and it recognized the problem. But never have I seen a team of bullies sticking together and turn into good people.
However, I have seen plenty of them putting up a smile, getting some green paint on and buying a stairway to heaven.
It's a shame people keep falling for it though. That's why politicians can be crooked. That's why abusive relationships last. That's why you can pollute, use children workers and lie to customers: by the time you pay the price, it's a slap on the wrist compared to what you did, and earned from it.
Then you just say you changed, and people forget or forgive, let you keep the loot, and the right to carry on with your business.
> Now MS is not the top dog anymore, Amazon, Apple, Google and Facebook are all eating his lunch.
MS is one of the most valuable companies in the world, and regularly surpasses Apple, Amazon, Google and Facebook as the most valuable company in the world.
> I've never seen a deeply flawed self-enclosed cultured turned into a sane one.
I doubt that your definition of sanity is at all useful here. You're obviously not familiar with the core teams that comprise MS and you're not disseminating any information here that is even remotely useful.
I guess you're safe in the bubble here though where people think Windows is simply unusable because some of the control panel windows have a different dressing than other ones and that macOS is the best despite that it's missing the most basic window management features! Hah!!
MS is one of the most valuable companies in the world, and regularly surpasses Apple, Amazon, Google and Facebook as the most valuable company in the world.
> I've never seen a deeply flawed self-enclosed cultured turned into a sane one.
I doubt that your definition of sanity is at all useful here. You're obviously not familiar with the core teams that comprise MS and you're not disseminating any information here that is even remotely useful.
I guess you're safe in the bubble here though where people think Windows is simply unusable because some of the control panel windows have a different dressing than other ones and that macOS is the best despite that it's missing the most basic window management features! Hah!!
I doubt HN crowd at large cares about control panel settings that much. What's importan though is that for many years MS led a very violent campaign against their competition, including Linux and Open Source. It wasn't a one-time thing. It was year after year, with a strategy and tactics, some of it leaked in the Halloween Documents. These clearly showed that Microsoft is an equivalent of self-absorbed bully who doesn't really care about the benefit of their customers but just net profit. It's really hard to forget. So I'm sorry if some of us don't believe Nadella's smile.
I don't need to disseminate any information, microsoft lying, insulting, cheating and corrupting for 20 years has been largely documented by the medias in the nineties.
If you were capable of reading at all at that time, it was one scandal every year.
If you were capable of reading at all at that time, it was one scandal every year.
> I mean look, we bought GitHub. That's not a move of someone that's trying to destroy from the inside.
lol
lol
ok, so it is exactly the move of someone trying to kill it all from the inside...
But really, it's something easily judged over time. Everyone will be able to judge how our open source attitude is in coming years.
And hay, look, there's more absorption of Linux into Windows... Is that embrace extend, or recognize reality? Or hold on for dear life? From my perspective, it's evolution, and nothing but good.
But really, it's something easily judged over time. Everyone will be able to judge how our open source attitude is in coming years.
And hay, look, there's more absorption of Linux into Windows... Is that embrace extend, or recognize reality? Or hold on for dear life? From my perspective, it's evolution, and nothing but good.
I don't know, personally I remain faithful to the classics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeo_Danaos_et_dona_ferentes
and cautious about these kind of corporate mentality changes, it seems to have been proved a valid approach for the last 2 thousand years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeo_Danaos_et_dona_ferentes
and cautious about these kind of corporate mentality changes, it seems to have been proved a valid approach for the last 2 thousand years or so.
Once you as a company have a certain track record, I'd say it's not unreasonable for an outsider to shift from "just wait and see if it'll be terrible!" to a more proactive stance. In cases like this, past actions do model future behaviour.
Years ago, a Microsoft sales associate called my CEO to try to get a member of my team (and probably me) fired because we told Microsoft we were taking a pass on upgrading our company to Vista; too many problems. Similar things have happened to other people in my network. Not saying this is MS policy or anything, but it happens.
I work in the public sector and we’ve been in bed with Microsoft for decades. Happy to have been too, I personally think we should do more Open Source for transparency reasons, but the truth is that Microsoft is the best major tech partner that we have. They may be the only major tech partner that we have that actually understands non-tech high-regulatory enterprise in fact, though Amazon is getting there with AWS. As an example of what I mean by that is major incident. We like to be able to call people, we’re like that in the public sector, and with Microsoft Seattle will quite literally be on the phone with us until our issue is fixed, with a lot of other tech companies you either talk to a chatbot, fill out some form or make a ticket in their support system. When the bureaucracy makes stuff like NSIS (EU security standard) they are always first to implement it. On the development front we’ve seen nothing but improvements over the years, and the fact that they’ve adopted the non-Microsoft techs we use like Node.JS and Python to be first class citizens is amazing. So is the fact that we can now buy C# code instead of JAVA and still run it on Linux servers. So I have a lot of praise for Microsoft.
I don’t see any sort of change in their culture though. Sure they’ve adopted Open Source, and that’s amazing, but they’ve done it because it was the best way to keep enterprise on Microsoft products, even on the development front because Office365 has no real competition.
.Net Core is a good example, it works everywhere but if you’re not using it with Visual Studio for Windows and the Azure devops stack you’ll just not be on equal footing to those who do. There was an issue with the .Net Core 2.1 watch command where it would require a full systems restart on Macs for more than a month, I mean, that’s just not taking Mac using developers seriously. Visual Studio Code has quickly become everyone’s favourite editor, but you know how you get the most out of it? By setting it up with WSL. Of course none of this is an issue of you buy into the Microsoft environment. I mentioned Node.JS, well a lot of the Azure DevOps works with Node as well, and it’s just a natural thing to do when your C# stack is already living there. Of course the flip side of this is that you can never really leave.
I think Microsoft continues to improve, but they haven’t changed a bit.
I don’t see any sort of change in their culture though. Sure they’ve adopted Open Source, and that’s amazing, but they’ve done it because it was the best way to keep enterprise on Microsoft products, even on the development front because Office365 has no real competition.
.Net Core is a good example, it works everywhere but if you’re not using it with Visual Studio for Windows and the Azure devops stack you’ll just not be on equal footing to those who do. There was an issue with the .Net Core 2.1 watch command where it would require a full systems restart on Macs for more than a month, I mean, that’s just not taking Mac using developers seriously. Visual Studio Code has quickly become everyone’s favourite editor, but you know how you get the most out of it? By setting it up with WSL. Of course none of this is an issue of you buy into the Microsoft environment. I mentioned Node.JS, well a lot of the Azure DevOps works with Node as well, and it’s just a natural thing to do when your C# stack is already living there. Of course the flip side of this is that you can never really leave.
I think Microsoft continues to improve, but they haven’t changed a bit.
Always and everywhere, surveillance is ultimately about extortion.
Your phone's nav track is remarkably cheap to obtain from a variety of sources. So is your spouse's, and your siblings', children's, parents', business partners', lawyer's, boss's, boss's family. Dirt on any of them can be used against you. Sometimes, dirt on a judge the judge's family serves as well.
Whenever you see an incomprehensible public action, such as a Senator suddenly resigning, or a billionaire let off from a child-molestation charge, know that behind-the-scenes activity, likely involving extortion, likely based on dragnet surveillance, is involved.
Prosecutors use it to get guilty pleas to charges they could not get a conviction on. Cops and spooks use it to recruit a network of informants.
The only protection any of us have is actual privacy, for ourselves and everyone around us, which requires shutting down pervasive surveillance systems.
Microsoft is very far from alone in employing this sort of dirty trick. They differ mainly in how open they are about it. Evidently they don't feel much risk of it biting them back.
Different organizations differ in how much they use dirty tricks. It depends overwhelmingly on what the top dog at each thinks of it. People will always blame an overambitious underling, but underlings can't do it without at least tacit approval from above.
Your phone's nav track is remarkably cheap to obtain from a variety of sources. So is your spouse's, and your siblings', children's, parents', business partners', lawyer's, boss's, boss's family. Dirt on any of them can be used against you. Sometimes, dirt on a judge the judge's family serves as well.
Whenever you see an incomprehensible public action, such as a Senator suddenly resigning, or a billionaire let off from a child-molestation charge, know that behind-the-scenes activity, likely involving extortion, likely based on dragnet surveillance, is involved.
Prosecutors use it to get guilty pleas to charges they could not get a conviction on. Cops and spooks use it to recruit a network of informants.
The only protection any of us have is actual privacy, for ourselves and everyone around us, which requires shutting down pervasive surveillance systems.
Microsoft is very far from alone in employing this sort of dirty trick. They differ mainly in how open they are about it. Evidently they don't feel much risk of it biting them back.
Different organizations differ in how much they use dirty tricks. It depends overwhelmingly on what the top dog at each thinks of it. People will always blame an overambitious underling, but underlings can't do it without at least tacit approval from above.
Doesn't this article quote a case from 2010? Then goes non sequitur to what happens in 2019?
My understanding is that while Scott Guthrie & Co is influential today, there is at least one camp of people that opposes this new openness. There is no guarantee the "other camp" won't get influential in the future or sabotage what they can.
Even dot net core is not free and open source yet.
https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/blob/release/3.0/Docu...
Even as they say everything is fine, I imagine they are fending off constant attacks from within Microsoft.
Even dot net core is not free and open source yet.
https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/blob/release/3.0/Docu...
Even as they say everything is fine, I imagine they are fending off constant attacks from within Microsoft.
Where are the facts in this piece?
Microsoft will always have its share of bad actors, make mistakes, and act in unpleasant ways. Any large company or institution will do. The question is whether these occasions represent standard operating procedure or just the statistical expected baseline quantity of misbehaviour.
There's no doubt that, in the past, Microsoft had a culture that allowed and encouraged bad behaviour at an individual, tactical and strategic level. I'm not convinced that is the case anymore. However, the aforementioned baseline misbehaviour means you will always be able to cherry-pick a collection of individuals and incidents to support a pre-ordained narrative of evilness, if that fits your worldview.