Why Apple “Killed” the MacBook Pro(forbes.com)
forbes.com
Why Apple “Killed” the MacBook Pro
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2019/10/12/apple-macbook-pro-steve-jobs-tim-cook-powerful-macos-ios-iphone-defeat-broken
34 comments
Also, maybe they are dragging their feet until they can throw out Intel and put an A-series chip in there.
I still love my MacBook Pro. It doesn’t feel dead to me at all. I’m okay knowing that iPhone and iPad are making lots of money for the company.
Yes, as a VIM user it took a minute to adjust to the missing ESC key. However converting the Caplock key to esc turned out to be a great ergonomic benefit for me. Yes I know there have been issues with the keyboard but they are resolving that. Yes the Touch Bar is a little gimmicky but it’s not bad, kind of neat and doesn’t cause a problem.
I’ve never been happier as an Apple customer as I am now. The products seem to continually improve and raise the bar for what I expect from a computer. I always feel bad for my co-workers who have to use Linux on ThinkPads or Windows.
Disclaimer: I used to work for Apple years ago and it was a great experience.
Yes, as a VIM user it took a minute to adjust to the missing ESC key. However converting the Caplock key to esc turned out to be a great ergonomic benefit for me. Yes I know there have been issues with the keyboard but they are resolving that. Yes the Touch Bar is a little gimmicky but it’s not bad, kind of neat and doesn’t cause a problem.
I’ve never been happier as an Apple customer as I am now. The products seem to continually improve and raise the bar for what I expect from a computer. I always feel bad for my co-workers who have to use Linux on ThinkPads or Windows.
Disclaimer: I used to work for Apple years ago and it was a great experience.
While I'm happy to hear you are a happy MBP user (so am I to be honest), the articles isn't arguing current MBPs are bad, just that they are not the performance power beasts they used to be. He talks about Tim's shift from performance to thinner and lighter (not whether that's good or bad, just that according to him it kind of takes the "pro" out).
> converting the Caplock key to esc...
I can't stand having to change 30 years of muscle memory to make one specific brand of desktop computer work the way that I need it to. And then what happens if I have to help a junior dev at their desk?
That's why I absolutely adore both Linux and Windows - they generally let you work the way that you want on the hardware that you want instead of the one-size-fits-all way that Apple wants. It certainly does make Apple a ton of profit though because fewer moving parts and fewer software options most certainly equates to higher profits.
> The products seem to continually improve and raise the bar for what I expect from a computer. I always feel bad for my co-workers...
I wouldn't worry too much about it because the vast, vast majority of developers are on Windows and I can assure you that they'd be absolutely sickened if you made them use something that didn't behave just like Windows; something that is lacking even the most rudimentary window management features such as macOS.
Try this experiment if you think macOS has good window management: Open "About this Mac" then use Alt+Tab to switch to another app - now try to use your keyboard to switch back to the window you just switched away from. For people who like using a keyboard to do things, macOS is not good - unless you also enjoy hacking the system against Apple's will and risking losing your preferences on any given update.
For developers who find even Windows limiting though, I recommend switching to something that can run XFCE because those guys have done an absolute bang up job of emulating all the best parts of the Windows UI system while adding even more advanced features.
I can't stand having to change 30 years of muscle memory to make one specific brand of desktop computer work the way that I need it to. And then what happens if I have to help a junior dev at their desk?
That's why I absolutely adore both Linux and Windows - they generally let you work the way that you want on the hardware that you want instead of the one-size-fits-all way that Apple wants. It certainly does make Apple a ton of profit though because fewer moving parts and fewer software options most certainly equates to higher profits.
> The products seem to continually improve and raise the bar for what I expect from a computer. I always feel bad for my co-workers...
I wouldn't worry too much about it because the vast, vast majority of developers are on Windows and I can assure you that they'd be absolutely sickened if you made them use something that didn't behave just like Windows; something that is lacking even the most rudimentary window management features such as macOS.
Try this experiment if you think macOS has good window management: Open "About this Mac" then use Alt+Tab to switch to another app - now try to use your keyboard to switch back to the window you just switched away from. For people who like using a keyboard to do things, macOS is not good - unless you also enjoy hacking the system against Apple's will and risking losing your preferences on any given update.
For developers who find even Windows limiting though, I recommend switching to something that can run XFCE because those guys have done an absolute bang up job of emulating all the best parts of the Windows UI system while adding even more advanced features.
> Yes I know there have been issues with the keyboard but they are resolving that.
They've said that a couple of times. I'll believe it when I see it.
> I always feel bad for my co-workers who have to use Linux on ThinkPads
Why? I mean I've worked as a sysadmin using macs since they switched to Intel but at this point I'd switch to an X1 Carbon running Fedora if my 2013 Retina died. (And yes I had one of the newer ones at my last job)
They've said that a couple of times. I'll believe it when I see it.
> I always feel bad for my co-workers who have to use Linux on ThinkPads
Why? I mean I've worked as a sysadmin using macs since they switched to Intel but at this point I'd switch to an X1 Carbon running Fedora if my 2013 Retina died. (And yes I had one of the newer ones at my last job)
I don't believe it as it just gets worse and worse.
I always pity the people who think they are "more productive" with a MBP while our Linux-on-TP users seem to be quite fine with their tools for at least half the price.
On top MBP users seem to need much more money for stupid little apps which happen to be free on linux to be even "more productive".
The newest keyboard is a piece of sht - it feels like no physical feedback at all.
When they need an upgrade they need a fin new MBP! Most of the parts can't be replaced anymore - this is really insane O.o
I always pity the people who think they are "more productive" with a MBP while our Linux-on-TP users seem to be quite fine with their tools for at least half the price.
On top MBP users seem to need much more money for stupid little apps which happen to be free on linux to be even "more productive".
The newest keyboard is a piece of sht - it feels like no physical feedback at all.
When they need an upgrade they need a fin new MBP! Most of the parts can't be replaced anymore - this is really insane O.o
> The newest keyboard is a piece of sht - it feels like no physical feedback at all.
Maybe it was the plan all along, to get people used to a virtual keyboard once they get rid of the physical one (yes, I'm joking).
Maybe it was the plan all along, to get people used to a virtual keyboard once they get rid of the physical one (yes, I'm joking).
> I always feel bad for my co-workers who have to use Linux on ThinkPads or Windows.
I recently moved from a MacBook Pro 13” i5 to a surface pro 6 i5, and development on Windows with WSL has been such a great experience that I doubt I’ll ever want to develop on a Mac again.
To each their own I guess.
I recently moved from a MacBook Pro 13” i5 to a surface pro 6 i5, and development on Windows with WSL has been such a great experience that I doubt I’ll ever want to develop on a Mac again.
To each their own I guess.
> Yes I know there have been issues with the keyboard but they are resolving that.
Repairing existing keyboards with the same faulty keyboard that already failed while scrapping the bad design and going back to scissor switches for all devices next year doesn't really seem like they are "resolving" anything for existing users.
Repairing existing keyboards with the same faulty keyboard that already failed while scrapping the bad design and going back to scissor switches for all devices next year doesn't really seem like they are "resolving" anything for existing users.
I also love my MBP. In addition I sometimes have to use a 2015-ish MBP and it feels really clunky (thick, heavy) to me.
This guy writes about one 'Apple KILLED the MacBook Pro' article almost every week. Go ahead, take a look at his previous articles lol.
Yes, but he isn't exactly wrong about it either, and sure it seems as though it has really affected him, but Apple too need to take a look into their near past, and introspect things. Sure, they seem to be suddenly overcompensating the Mac fans by launching things out of the blue like the new Mac Pro or the iMac Pro, but with no real incentive to the average user to upgrade into their desktop hardware anymore, for one the price tag itself would turn off desktop enthusiasts who would prefer to either just build their own rigs, or go for other tower vendors, and moreover the latest Mac hardware just doesn't offer anything remarkable for their prices other than premium aesthetic looking machines that one would assemble themselves. Sure, people trash the trashcan Mac Pro but it was something truly original at the time and still maybe. And the same goes for the Macbook Pro line.
Whenever I try to research Apple products I've nearly always found hit piece articles at the top of search results. There seems to be a robust market for this sort of thing. Usually the authors specialize in it and pump out things like this regularly.
Apple and other companies should totally experiment with new things like Touch Bar and keyboards but try them out on stuff like the Mac book or products where it’s not like the hard core work laptop.. I mean 7 years ago literally everybody I knew bought a MacBook Pro because it was the best hands down but now I know virtually nobody who does.. its totally not upgradeable (soldered ram and SSD), super expensive, keyboard is who knows what’s happening there, Touch Bar — nobody asked for emoji bar.. and oh yea the once basically flawless trackpad is now ludicrously big for what reason again and has a haptic click instead of a real mech switch..
If somebody could make an updated like 2013-2014 timeframe retina MBP with replaceable nvmE disk, replaceable LPDDR5, I think people would love that..
I honestly can’t figure out how to replace my 2012 Mac book pro.. maybe Linux laptop from somebody? Any suggestions?
If somebody could make an updated like 2013-2014 timeframe retina MBP with replaceable nvmE disk, replaceable LPDDR5, I think people would love that..
I honestly can’t figure out how to replace my 2012 Mac book pro.. maybe Linux laptop from somebody? Any suggestions?
I'm now using MacBook Pro while writing this answer.
My fingers are almost melting
It doesn't matter how good they will do the next Mac
They first of all, have to fix the problem that it gets too freaking hot
It doesn't matter how good they will do the next Mac
They first of all, have to fix the problem that it gets too freaking hot
How hot does it get? I recently noticed that my mid 2014 gets easily to 80/85°C (~180°F) and I would have hoped that in 5 years this would have improved
The sad thing is, Apple is on the USB-IF and could've donated their Magsafe patent to USB C and made the magnetic connector an option the USB C (not a requirement, too expensive, probably) and they could've kept a magnetic connector for all their USB C laptops , it would've come for free for the iPad and tomorrow, of course, the iPhone could have one too. It's not like other manufacturers having this option would be worse than Apple not having it!
There is a Kickstarter which promised and showed demos of running Thunderbolt over a magnetic connector. I do not think it's a scam, we will see, but what I am saying, this is not out of the realm of possibilities. Yes, it's tricky running 40gbps over pogopins this small but if Apple helped? That's vastly different.
There is a Kickstarter which promised and showed demos of running Thunderbolt over a magnetic connector. I do not think it's a scam, we will see, but what I am saying, this is not out of the realm of possibilities. Yes, it's tricky running 40gbps over pogopins this small but if Apple helped? That's vastly different.
The MB Pro certainly isn't dead. But it is currently going into a direction, I wouldn't call "pro". There is still a lot of engineering going into them, they look so clean inside.
But I think it is going into the wrong direction. I am currently using a late 2015 MB Pro and agree with everyone who claims this might have been the pinnacle of the MB Pro evolution. Certainly I appreciate a compact and elegant laptop that can be easily carried. But it is most of all a work machine and needs to perform accordingly.
I don't need to say anything about the new keyboards, they are an obvious failure. On a pro machine, I would expect an HDMI port, at least one USB A port would be nice too. And of course a full sized SD reader, as this is the format used in most cameras today.
The biggest issue though for a professional machine is the repairability. If you need a machine for work, you cannot give it up for several days if not weeks when there is an issue. Also, considering how expensive the machines are when purchased, a repair should be reasonably priced. It is not acceptable to throw large parts of the laptop away, if the screen connector or the keyboard breaks. So the benchmark for a real pro machine would be, that a technician can exchange the main components in a few minutes. Be it battery or keyboard. Considering how small modern SSD modules are, there is also no good reason not to offer at least one m.2 disk in the machine.
The biggest issue though for a professional machine is the repairability. If you need a machine for work, you cannot give it up for several days if not weeks when there is an issue. Also, considering how expensive the machines are when purchased, a repair should be reasonably priced. It is not acceptable to throw large parts of the laptop away, if the screen connector or the keyboard breaks. So the benchmark for a real pro machine would be, that a technician can exchange the main components in a few minutes. Be it battery or keyboard. Considering how small modern SSD modules are, there is also no good reason not to offer at least one m.2 disk in the machine.
It is so, so frustrating to read these kinds of things.
You can bemoan the state of the MBP all you want (and yes, much of it is valid), but here's the thing: realistically, Apple doesn't have to care because no other company produces a laptop that's as well made and long-lasting.
I've been trying to find a laptop that doesn't fit the following - it's mind-boggling how bad this industry is once you try to leave Apple's walls:
- It cannot look like something a 14 year old gamer would flock to, complete with lights and design trends straight out of a Bayformers film. This invalidates any "gamer laptop" short of some Razer models, and the Razer models have notable fan issues (among other things).
- After using a MBP for years, I refuse to go back to something that's made with cheap materials. If it bends the frame when I type the middle of the keyboard, it's out (so we can throw out most System76/Clevo stuff right here...)
- People like to look good. Apple products legitimately look good. I don't want to give that up. It cannot look bulky, clunky, and generally not fashionable - short of... what, one HP Notebook that I could find, the rest are just abysmal. You see non-Apple people wonder about the obsession with thin laptops and so on - this is it. People legitimately do buy with fashion in mind.
- No other laptop is as well integrated on both the software and hardware side as Macbooks are. You can tinker and get it close, sure, but the reason that Apple can sell less powerful hardware is because the system is so optimized for it.
Apple's killed it in the past decade or so on all of these. Keyboard issues start coming up? Why would they care? Where exactly are you going to go...? They'll fix it when they get to it and you'll like it.
You won't find another laptop and ecosystem as well integrated as the one Apple's made over the past decade. It doesn't exist.
For crying out loud, if System76 could just sell a cloned MBP shell that'd be amazing.
End rant, I guess. This has been a personal pet peeve of mine for weeks, the laptop industry is so abysmal all around.
Edit: Yes, before anyone points it out, Thinkpads are well made and long lasting. They do not visually look good in my opinion.
You can bemoan the state of the MBP all you want (and yes, much of it is valid), but here's the thing: realistically, Apple doesn't have to care because no other company produces a laptop that's as well made and long-lasting.
I've been trying to find a laptop that doesn't fit the following - it's mind-boggling how bad this industry is once you try to leave Apple's walls:
- It cannot look like something a 14 year old gamer would flock to, complete with lights and design trends straight out of a Bayformers film. This invalidates any "gamer laptop" short of some Razer models, and the Razer models have notable fan issues (among other things).
- After using a MBP for years, I refuse to go back to something that's made with cheap materials. If it bends the frame when I type the middle of the keyboard, it's out (so we can throw out most System76/Clevo stuff right here...)
- People like to look good. Apple products legitimately look good. I don't want to give that up. It cannot look bulky, clunky, and generally not fashionable - short of... what, one HP Notebook that I could find, the rest are just abysmal. You see non-Apple people wonder about the obsession with thin laptops and so on - this is it. People legitimately do buy with fashion in mind.
- No other laptop is as well integrated on both the software and hardware side as Macbooks are. You can tinker and get it close, sure, but the reason that Apple can sell less powerful hardware is because the system is so optimized for it.
Apple's killed it in the past decade or so on all of these. Keyboard issues start coming up? Why would they care? Where exactly are you going to go...? They'll fix it when they get to it and you'll like it.
You won't find another laptop and ecosystem as well integrated as the one Apple's made over the past decade. It doesn't exist.
For crying out loud, if System76 could just sell a cloned MBP shell that'd be amazing.
End rant, I guess. This has been a personal pet peeve of mine for weeks, the laptop industry is so abysmal all around.
Edit: Yes, before anyone points it out, Thinkpads are well made and long lasting. They do not visually look good in my opinion.
> no other company produces a laptop that's as well made and long-lasting
Of the top of my head: Dell XPS 13, Huawei Matebook X Pro, Thinkpad Carbon, Surface Books.
Saying MBP are unique is ignorant.
Of the top of my head: Dell XPS 13, Huawei Matebook X Pro, Thinkpad Carbon, Surface Books.
Saying MBP are unique is ignorant.
Yeah... no. It's not ignorant, given that the MBP is pretty widely regarded for what it is. Few of those stick up (and I noted in my edit, before you commented, that yes - the Thinkpad et al are well built, but they are _not_ good looking).
Purism makes nice Librem macbook air alternative. I know they are hated now for Librem mobile phone but ive recently seen the notebok in person and it was pretty and solid.
What do you think about Microsoft Surface laptops?
It's a step in the right direction, but hardware wise the lack of memory beyond 16GB annoys me. Even Apple, who notoriously kept it low for years, now offers 32GB for Pro models.
So the Surface probably works for some people, but not for me. The Surface 2 design seems like they're trying hard with the attention to details, so props to that.
So the Surface probably works for some people, but not for me. The Surface 2 design seems like they're trying hard with the attention to details, so props to that.
From what I can tell, they’re a fine alternative to the current MacBook or MacBook Air, but they fail the ‘pro’ criteria just like the last few years of mbp, including small memory, glued/soldered/unserviceable parts, and an over-emphasis on thinness that hurts performance/cooling and battery life.
Earlier this year, I gave up on my 2011 mbp, because I didn’t want to upgrade until ~2014, and by then it was basically too late. Early this year, I picked up a chromebook with an i5 U-series chip and 8gb of ram while waiting to see if Apple could fix the (primarily keyboard) issues before I put Linux on an XPS13 or X1 Carbon. Today, it’s hard to see why I’d pay $1500+ for any of those options.
Earlier this year, I gave up on my 2011 mbp, because I didn’t want to upgrade until ~2014, and by then it was basically too late. Early this year, I picked up a chromebook with an i5 U-series chip and 8gb of ram while waiting to see if Apple could fix the (primarily keyboard) issues before I put Linux on an XPS13 or X1 Carbon. Today, it’s hard to see why I’d pay $1500+ for any of those options.
To me personally, Microsoft Surface Book is a very valid alternative.
The MacBook Pro isn’t bad or dead. Judging from people’s complaints, it’s more like Apple needs a MacBook Pro Max: bigger, heavier, faster.
Or perhaps just the MacBook Pro, and then they could rename the model currently labeled that to just MacBook now that they've discontinued the model that previously filled the slot.
Well, if you want to say that Apple killed the MacBook Pro, mention the keyboard and the touch bar at least.
People on HN should know better than to post "forbes contributor" articles. It's a glorified tumblr (hover on the little "i" next to the author) where anyone with a half baked, superficially-informed opinion gets to write BS under a Forbes banner.
To the author's point: Got a couple of Apple laptops in the past year and I agree this generation of keyboard is a miss. But in the meantime it's not like other laptop manufacturers are hitting it out of the park. Isn't it just that the laptop product is a mature form factor with only room for incremental improvements?
Let's wait until 2025, and see if someone reintroduces something similar to
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboar...
or even tries an ergonomic layout, maybe split keyboard on larger models.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboar...
or even tries an ergonomic layout, maybe split keyboard on larger models.
Ewan Spence is the John C. Dvorak of mobile technology, except that he's not at all entertaining. He's a product of the sham that is the Forbes Tech Council.
This same author posts almost daily click-baity hit-pieces about Apple on Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/#2805a79a1089
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/#2805a79a1089
Apple just has to update the Mac lineup so its 'good enough' to not let the PC market cause a net growth loss, and to keep iOS developers from leaving.