Rock climbing and the economics of innovation(softmachines.org)
softmachines.org
Rock climbing and the economics of innovation
http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=2388
94 comments
I think the main innovation is actually climbing gyms and their popularity, and I'm surprised they weren't talked about in the article. For instance, Alex Honnold replicated many of the difficult moves of Freerider in indoor gyms, which makes it logistically possible to train far more often and intensely. It also serves to further democratize the sport because you don't need the unlimited funds to travel to these spots in the middle of nowhere.
The campus board was only invented in 1988 by Wolfgang Güllich while he was training for Action Directe. Now there's one hanging in every gym in the world.
And I think Lynn Hill has said that one of the things that made her first free ascent of the Nose possible was new climbing gyms, that let her train more intensively than was possible before.
So yeah, as the sport grows we also get more gyms, which further grows the pool of potential record breakers to those who can't travel as much.
The campus board was only invented in 1988 by Wolfgang Güllich while he was training for Action Directe. Now there's one hanging in every gym in the world.
And I think Lynn Hill has said that one of the things that made her first free ascent of the Nose possible was new climbing gyms, that let her train more intensively than was possible before.
So yeah, as the sport grows we also get more gyms, which further grows the pool of potential record breakers to those who can't travel as much.
The very interesting trend right now is there are so many new climbing shoes vendors start appearing within a couple of years. I suspect it's because the Olympic accepted free climbing.
I was skeptical at first on these freshly new shoes vendors, but when I tried out their products, it's on-par quality with the existing vendors. Even more, often time, these newcomers has far durable product than the traditional vendors.
My guess is, traditional vendors aimed for the too high end product and losing the durability. They aimed for the high friction and more natural naked foot feeling, resulting their sole ever softer rubber and thinner. Usual climbing shoes sole has 4mm thick. But these high end product go as thin as 2.5mm.
If your weight isn't less than 50kg, you'll wear it out in 3 month.
My other complaint for a particular famous Italian climbing shoes vendor is, that they don't use strong glue. Perhaps, Italia is less humid than Japan so their glue doesn't need to be that strong, but this particular Italian-made shoes has serious issues on their glue so the shoes start to disassemble itself before the sole wear out.
I was skeptical at first on these freshly new shoes vendors, but when I tried out their products, it's on-par quality with the existing vendors. Even more, often time, these newcomers has far durable product than the traditional vendors.
My guess is, traditional vendors aimed for the too high end product and losing the durability. They aimed for the high friction and more natural naked foot feeling, resulting their sole ever softer rubber and thinner. Usual climbing shoes sole has 4mm thick. But these high end product go as thin as 2.5mm.
If your weight isn't less than 50kg, you'll wear it out in 3 month.
My other complaint for a particular famous Italian climbing shoes vendor is, that they don't use strong glue. Perhaps, Italia is less humid than Japan so their glue doesn't need to be that strong, but this particular Italian-made shoes has serious issues on their glue so the shoes start to disassemble itself before the sole wear out.
> traditional vendors aimed for the too high end product
Even when traditional vendors like 5.10 were really pushing the limits of sole thickness with stuff like their "Project" (2mm sole and unlined upper - my favorite performance shoe ever) they didn't seem to abandon the lower performance/more durable side of the market. Also, durability vs performance is a pretty reasonable tradeoff to make, as long as people who can't take advantage of the high-end shoe aren't getting mislead into buying them. Same thing with ropes - offering an 8.9mm isn't a sign a company doesn't care about durability, it just means they're selling gear to climbers who want to be on one side of the performance/durability tradeoff.
(edit: Also, not to sound preachy, but if you're having rubber-wear issues at a casual level of climbing/training, work on your foot technique! You'll climber harder, use less energy, and save money on resoles! My favorite exercise for that is long gym traverses during which I focus on making as little noise with my feet as possible.)
Even when traditional vendors like 5.10 were really pushing the limits of sole thickness with stuff like their "Project" (2mm sole and unlined upper - my favorite performance shoe ever) they didn't seem to abandon the lower performance/more durable side of the market. Also, durability vs performance is a pretty reasonable tradeoff to make, as long as people who can't take advantage of the high-end shoe aren't getting mislead into buying them. Same thing with ropes - offering an 8.9mm isn't a sign a company doesn't care about durability, it just means they're selling gear to climbers who want to be on one side of the performance/durability tradeoff.
(edit: Also, not to sound preachy, but if you're having rubber-wear issues at a casual level of climbing/training, work on your foot technique! You'll climber harder, use less energy, and save money on resoles! My favorite exercise for that is long gym traverses during which I focus on making as little noise with my feet as possible.)
I think it's interesting the way climbing apparel makers have gone on to assume such a dominant presence in retail. I recall going into mountaineering shops in the mid 90s when North Face and Arc'teryx were boutique manufacturers that only catered to hardcore alpinists and climbers.
Now, if you go to the mall on a cold day every second yuppie is wearing a jacket from one of the big climbing apparel retailers. Initially they were motivated purely by utility, fashion played no role in their design choices.
If you buy a puffy or a goretex jacket from a non-climbing company it may appear technical, but they're just not as well made.
Now, if you go to the mall on a cold day every second yuppie is wearing a jacket from one of the big climbing apparel retailers. Initially they were motivated purely by utility, fashion played no role in their design choices.
If you buy a puffy or a goretex jacket from a non-climbing company it may appear technical, but they're just not as well made.
climbing apparel makers have gone on to assume such a dominant presence in retail
This isn't because the mass market started buying climbing apparel; it's because North Face, Columbia, Patagonia, decided to leverage their brand into the mainstream. You can now buy all manner of cotton citywear with a cool outdoorsy chic from any of these brands, and they're probably making 10X more money. But I wouldn't assume folks are buying more actual climbing apparel.
Whether this dilutes the brands long-term is something we'll see in another decade or two.
This isn't because the mass market started buying climbing apparel; it's because North Face, Columbia, Patagonia, decided to leverage their brand into the mainstream. You can now buy all manner of cotton citywear with a cool outdoorsy chic from any of these brands, and they're probably making 10X more money. But I wouldn't assume folks are buying more actual climbing apparel.
Whether this dilutes the brands long-term is something we'll see in another decade or two.
My primary shoe for bouldering is the Scarpa Drago, which has 2.5mm rubber. The toe rubber wears out after ~3 months. That's pretty fast for a $200 shoe, but it can be resoled several times (~$40 for a pair) for a total cost of ~$320/year. To me, that's worth it for the comfort and performance.
But I'm not sure this is really a trend overall; there are still plenty of high-end shoes from Scarpa, La Sportiva, etc. with thicker rubber.
Definitely great to see all of the new entrants though. It's amazing how much climbing shoes have evolved even in just the past decade.
But I'm not sure this is really a trend overall; there are still plenty of high-end shoes from Scarpa, La Sportiva, etc. with thicker rubber.
Definitely great to see all of the new entrants though. It's amazing how much climbing shoes have evolved even in just the past decade.
That's still pretty cheap for a sport. Compare it to what your skier friends blow through for the handful of days they make it out to the mountain each year.
I go through 2 pairs of shoes per year, being heavy and climbing a lot. I don't sweat the cost at all, and tend to just buy 3-4 pairs whenever I notice them go on sale at barrabes or wherever.
All in, climbing is just about the cheapest sport you could ask for. Especially as a boulderer. Add in $8/month for a giant sack of chalk and $300 every 10 years for a new giant pad and you're set.
I go through 2 pairs of shoes per year, being heavy and climbing a lot. I don't sweat the cost at all, and tend to just buy 3-4 pairs whenever I notice them go on sale at barrabes or wherever.
All in, climbing is just about the cheapest sport you could ask for. Especially as a boulderer. Add in $8/month for a giant sack of chalk and $300 every 10 years for a new giant pad and you're set.
If you want the absolute best to win the climbing competition, that's a viable strategy and totally worth the money for.
But for a casual climber like me whose best grade is 3級(Japanese grade standard, equivalent of 6a+/6b or V3) and climb once per week in a indoor gym, it's a diminishing return.
I want my shoes to be durable enough for at least 9 months. The resole is cheaper but necessary effort for the resole(bring shoes to the resole service, negotiating how I would like to be resoled) is a quite hassle for me. So I'd rather buy a new shoes.
But for a casual climber like me whose best grade is 3級(Japanese grade standard, equivalent of 6a+/6b or V3) and climb once per week in a indoor gym, it's a diminishing return.
I want my shoes to be durable enough for at least 9 months. The resole is cheaper but necessary effort for the resole(bring shoes to the resole service, negotiating how I would like to be resoled) is a quite hassle for me. So I'd rather buy a new shoes.
Think you're putting too much focus on the shoe. I've had a $40 pair of shoes for nearly 8 years without a resole for when I want comfort. Climbing V6 without issues (at least not because of my feet).
My second pair was a $200 Shaman, and they were great, unfortunately I was using them when I had limited knowledge and experience, I got them resoled once, and while worth it, I purchased a low end pair ($100) as my secondary, and have found them 90% functional compared to the high end pairs, and have been sticking with them over the high performance shoes.
They're great, but like yourself, I'm not a pro, or a prospective pro, I do it for fun, and health. I'm not going to pay $200 every 4 months for a new pair, or even resole.
They're great, but like yourself, I'm not a pro, or a prospective pro, I do it for fun, and health. I'm not going to pay $200 every 4 months for a new pair, or even resole.
Use of water-based adhesives is one of the factors in sport shoes coming apart prematurely, especially in humid climate. It is dictated by environmental concerns. Shoes with European Ecolabel have strict limits on use of organic solvents in manufacturing.
>My other complaint for a particular famous Italian climbing shoes vendor is, that they don't use strong glue.
My favorites shoes are resoled shoes from said Italian vendor. Wonderful once they've got good glue on em
My favorites shoes are resoled shoes from said Italian vendor. Wonderful once they've got good glue on em
Well, I like their shoes because its shape fit my foot better than most of the shoes. I have a rather wide foot so some shoes just doesn't fit no matter how big it is.
It still amazes me how climbing gear continues to find ways to improve every year. The pads I land on and the shoes I climb in today are undeniably better than the ones I was using just five years ago.
Take shoes. Here's what the brand new Scarpa Instinct looked like nine years ago:
https://www.climbing.com/gear/new-and-notable-scarpa-instinc...
Notice the tiny scrap of rubber they stuck on to the top of the thing. That was revolutionary at the time. Today, that rubber takes over the whole upper surface of the shoe. Here's a pair of mine in action last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcN3WETCDzM
Trust me, I tried that problem quite a bit harder back before rubber-topped shoes came into vogue, and there was no holding that toe hook. The method of the day was to use your heel, which was, well, harder.
If you check out the shoe range of just that one company, you'll find that this is like their fifth most technical shoe. Kept around because old timers like me still like them.
Take shoes. Here's what the brand new Scarpa Instinct looked like nine years ago:
https://www.climbing.com/gear/new-and-notable-scarpa-instinc...
Notice the tiny scrap of rubber they stuck on to the top of the thing. That was revolutionary at the time. Today, that rubber takes over the whole upper surface of the shoe. Here's a pair of mine in action last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcN3WETCDzM
Trust me, I tried that problem quite a bit harder back before rubber-topped shoes came into vogue, and there was no holding that toe hook. The method of the day was to use your heel, which was, well, harder.
If you check out the shoe range of just that one company, you'll find that this is like their fifth most technical shoe. Kept around because old timers like me still like them.
What's funny is that I feel somewhat the opposite. Most revolutionary things were developed right when I started (1996?) and now it's just incremental changes. To wit: my favorite climbing shoe, the Sportiva Miura VS came out in 1996! They're still used for cutting edge climbing. The rubber was what was really important to the shoe.
While I agree with your point Im not sure toe patches are the best example, shoes like the Five Ten V10 and the dragons had big toe patches well before the instincts came out.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcN3WETCDzM
That's a beautiful line!
That's a beautiful line!
Someone should invite that economist to a modern rock climbing gym. Then explain every piece of technology that made those wall designs affordable and commonplace in most major cities. Being able to train in state-of-the-art facilities, focusing exactly on the moves you need to make, day and night, rain or shine, that's crucial.
Typing this from a climbing gym, where I can see kids around 12 years old crushing climbs I struggle with, I'm inclined to agree.
Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Plastic is a poor substitute for real rock, and seasonal climbers experience a noticeably marked atrophy of outdoor climbing ability during the off-season when they are limited to gym climbing.
I surprisingly agree with the opinion put out. Shoes have made a night-and-day difference. Also Alex was able to practice climbing indoors on artificial walls no matter the weather outside, starting from an early age.
And also Alex is the very definition of an Outlier. Everything kind of came together.
And also Alex is the very definition of an Outlier. Everything kind of came together.
To maybe give an idea on how important those shoes that Alex wore were - or at least how perfect they were for the ascent: the athlete that designed them w/Sportiva, Tommy Caldwell put up all but two of the free routes on El Capitan (so only 8 or so in total), including the hardest free route on the wall. The shoes were effectively made for that one area.
Huber Brothers did more than 2 (Freerider, Golden Gate, El Nino, Zodiac). Skinner and Piana freed Salathe, Lynn freed the Nose. Most repeats aren't done in TC Pros.
But yes, TC Pros are great.
But yes, TC Pros are great.
Scale, scale, scale. There are FAR more rock climbers, and FAR more people climbing El Cap than in the past. With ALL of those rolls of the dice, you're bound to find a prodigy like Honnold (or Beethoven or whoever, pick your field+prodigy).
More people, more scale, more chances at finding prodigious talent.
More people, more scale, more chances at finding prodigious talent.
I think that the most recent reelrock with AH and TC speed climbing the nose gives way more context on the same topic.
The technology really is the same in both the speed climb and the solo,; the ability to catch long falls without much human intervention is the big deal in being able to rehearse the moves at a point where they can be done "safely".
You can try to divorce technique (knowledge) from technology, but how we use a tool is so much of what a tool is.
The technology really is the same in both the speed climb and the solo,; the ability to catch long falls without much human intervention is the big deal in being able to rehearse the moves at a point where they can be done "safely".
You can try to divorce technique (knowledge) from technology, but how we use a tool is so much of what a tool is.
Not to mention that the sheer amount of people exposed to climbing is at least 10,000 times higher than it was when the first ascent took place.
I think the fascinating takeaway from Cochrane piece, and this response article, is how much innovation improves a person's performance, even if indirectly. It's a great reminder of how hard it is to measure the effects of technical innovation.
It's also amazing that even before some of these innovations (dynamic rope, cams) how many people were able to climb incredibly tough routes. The technology has opened the sport to people who enjoy the it but aren't so interested in risking their lives on a second-by-second basis.
And as an aside, having climbed the Salathe route featured in the Free Solo movie, I can't even begin to imagine the mindset you would need to consider climbing it without protection.
It's also amazing that even before some of these innovations (dynamic rope, cams) how many people were able to climb incredibly tough routes. The technology has opened the sport to people who enjoy the it but aren't so interested in risking their lives on a second-by-second basis.
And as an aside, having climbed the Salathe route featured in the Free Solo movie, I can't even begin to imagine the mindset you would need to consider climbing it without protection.
The comma between 'free' and 'solo' in the first sentence is unnecessary and could actually imply a different style of climbing, rope soloing. see https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/keita-kurakami-makes-fi...
On the top of solo, free climbing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikzYN0z4zU
Pete Whitaker's 1 day solo, free ascent of Freerider, the same route that Honnold free solo'd in just a few hours.
Pete Whitaker's 1 day solo, free ascent of Freerider, the same route that Honnold free solo'd in just a few hours.
Not this again... flawed ideas built on an an extremely narrow and false premise.
Previous discussion regarding the blogpost referred to in this article:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914023
Previous discussion regarding the blogpost referred to in this article:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914023
"And to return to Alex Honnold, perhaps the most important lesson a free-market loving economist should draw is that sometimes people will do extraordinary things without the motivation of money."
My dad likes to visit the same coffee shop every morning, where he sees more or less the same people. He likes to show his friends pictures of his son on big routes in Yosemite or the Andes, preferring the ones with dangling-portaledge or freezing thousand-yard-stare shock value. They almost invariably ask, "does he get paid for this?" I ask him how he restrains himself from asking, "have you ever done anything for fun?"
My dad likes to visit the same coffee shop every morning, where he sees more or less the same people. He likes to show his friends pictures of his son on big routes in Yosemite or the Andes, preferring the ones with dangling-portaledge or freezing thousand-yard-stare shock value. They almost invariably ask, "does he get paid for this?" I ask him how he restrains himself from asking, "have you ever done anything for fun?"
> sometimes people will do extraordinary things without the motivation of money
Spending money and doing things will always be more fun than earning money. People earn money to spend it on pursuits like rock climbing, even if climbing the rock itself is free, buying the equipment and taking time off to climb it costs money, so those extraordinary things were done thanks to an earlier motivation to make money.
Spending money and doing things will always be more fun than earning money. People earn money to spend it on pursuits like rock climbing, even if climbing the rock itself is free, buying the equipment and taking time off to climb it costs money, so those extraordinary things were done thanks to an earlier motivation to make money.
Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive.
While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more able to do extraordinary things, climbing culture exemplifies those extraordinary things are possible without it. Much of the development of modern climbing was done with almost no money.
Read Steve Roper's "Camp 4".
While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more able to do extraordinary things, climbing culture exemplifies those extraordinary things are possible without it. Much of the development of modern climbing was done with almost no money.
Read Steve Roper's "Camp 4".
I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great marketing though.
Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)
Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)
It is a much different world now, My friends who did the dirtbag life are now finding their hens coming home to roost in a major way as they hit their late 20s/early 30s. If you don't have wealthy parents or connections it is going to be very difficult for someone with no degree and little work experience to catch a break at that age.
The freewheeling artist/hippy lifestyle of that time period was probably partially encouraged by how strong our economy was. Almost anyone could take the "risk" of dropping out of the workforce for a time to explore their spiritual side.
A white dude in his 30s with a high school diploma in the 70s-80s still had plenty of opportunity to jump into the workforce and start down the road to home ownership and family life.
The freewheeling artist/hippy lifestyle of that time period was probably partially encouraged by how strong our economy was. Almost anyone could take the "risk" of dropping out of the workforce for a time to explore their spiritual side.
A white dude in his 30s with a high school diploma in the 70s-80s still had plenty of opportunity to jump into the workforce and start down the road to home ownership and family life.
It's funny because the economy is currently in one of the longest bull runs ever, and yet the above is no where near possible. The income inequality today is staggering.
I still have climber friends that dumpster dive for basically all their groceries. Yes they still have (seasonal) jobs, but they save every last penny using such antics so they can climb / recreate more.
So no, I don't think it is played out at all.
So no, I don't think it is played out at all.
I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place.
However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladder-climbing.
However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladder-climbing.
I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know.
I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do.
Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of career folk do roll those out on weekends, but some of those are owned by twenty-somethings. In the minority, you see some people scraping by.
I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do.
Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of career folk do roll those out on weekends, but some of those are owned by twenty-somethings. In the minority, you see some people scraping by.
Again, I think you're making a fair point about the intersection of privilege and the 'dirtbag' lifestyle, but that's not really what I'm getting at. I'm just commenting that those people with 100k$ vans are sneered at pretty heavily in climbing culture. A lot of other sports cultures are the opposite, where they sneer at people who don't have the 'right' gear. Lots of rich golfers for instance that don't want to interact with the poors and run exclusive clubs partially for that purpose.
Regardless, any leisure time at all is a privilege. Working-class and poor people largely don't have time or money to do _anything_ at all, climbing or otherwise.
I also think you're putting a little too much value on 'adult life'. We can and should work on allowing more people from more diverse socio-economic backgrounds to enjoy more leisure time, not criticize the people that can.
Regardless, any leisure time at all is a privilege. Working-class and poor people largely don't have time or money to do _anything_ at all, climbing or otherwise.
I also think you're putting a little too much value on 'adult life'. We can and should work on allowing more people from more diverse socio-economic backgrounds to enjoy more leisure time, not criticize the people that can.
When living in ski areas we called some of these kids "Trustafarians"
> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know.
Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive?
Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?
Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive?
Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?
To be honest he's not wrong. I bought my trad rack (widgets that go in cracks and carabiners for them) for around $2,000. Rope, shoes, helmet, harness, backpacks, etc on top of that is probably another $2,000 at most. Camping gear is another ~$1,000.
Most of this stuff (aside from the rope) will last for many years. Occasionally I'll lose a cam out climbing which is $50-80 to replace, but only happens a few times a season.
Compare this to skiing or mountain biking and you can see how climbing is a vastly cheaper sport.
Most of this stuff (aside from the rope) will last for many years. Occasionally I'll lose a cam out climbing which is $50-80 to replace, but only happens a few times a season.
Compare this to skiing or mountain biking and you can see how climbing is a vastly cheaper sport.
Spending 5k on a sport is expensive for most people.
what materials do are you thinking about when saying climbers leave things? If you do it correctly you leave with all the gear you came with
Not always.
Sometimes you have to sling a tree or rock in order to rappel. Sometimes gear gets stuck and you have to move on. Sometimes you drop gear by accident.
Sometimes you have to sling a tree or rock in order to rappel. Sometimes gear gets stuck and you have to move on. Sometimes you drop gear by accident.
Surfing has the same history, they lived on beaches, ate coconuts and fished, or relied on the generosity of locals, when these places were still not "surfing destinations".
Everything cool "skateboarding", "snowboarding", "BMX-biking" started with a rag-tag band of individuals, who were scrappy and had pure love for the activity.
I like Alex Honnold's answer to "Do all rock climbers live in vans?"
https://youtu.be/kDUeh8nyLT0?t=159
https://youtu.be/kDUeh8nyLT0?t=159
Close on the timing mark, this one did it for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDUeh8nyLT0&t=129
Or google 'dirtbag climbing'. Fred Beckey was one of the masters. I heard a story that he didn't even have an address for much of his life.
Funny you mention Fred Beckey. Randomly met the guy once in a backcountry lodge (I'm an avid backpacker, he was on his way to summit a mountain).
Anyhow, most of the climbers I've known were more well to do. It's like ski bums vs. skiers.
Anyhow, most of the climbers I've known were more well to do. It's like ski bums vs. skiers.
I never met Fred Beckey but have been reading his Cascade Alpine Guides for a good chunk of my life. It's an amazing series. Even did a few of the routes. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfJGmXg4Yg
There's a great great movie about him that came out a year ago.
There's a great great movie about him that came out a year ago.
People will spend money to going on a working vacation in a developing country with primitive facilities, or pay to drive a handsom cab, or many other far more pedestrian activities than big wall climbing. Money should be used to do things that are personally important and satisfy deep values and goals. Forget about those who think you're supposed to use money solely for buying "stuff".
It may be my bias, but I've met plenty of people trained in economics that are really not particularly motivated by money, but rather by doing things they find fun and interesting.
One of them recently was sailing around BC looking for new sea to summit ascents.
There's essentially no hope that their activities will yield them any money.
One of them recently was sailing around BC looking for new sea to summit ascents.
There's essentially no hope that their activities will yield them any money.
That reminds me of a sticker I saw on someone’s mountaineering helmet once: “My dream vacation is your worst nightmare”.
Maybe it's just their way of saying that they are impressed? As in: Your son seems to be so good that others for sure want to sponsor him.
Your dad and you both sound like nice and smart people. I smiled when reading the last sentence.
A lesser known free solo in El Potero Chico, Mexico done by Alex many years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phl82D57P58
Another great one is this documentary of the Fitz Roy Traverse by Honnold and Caldwell. It’s a high alpine adventure rather than a free solo, but it’s a different sort of amazing achievement to watch unfold.
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/episodes/AP-1MQAPEZX91W11
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/episodes/AP-1MQAPEZX91W11
Another one, even though it's not about Alex per se, but about Brad Gobright (another great climber who loves to free solo) I'd recommend watching "Safety Third". It's on vimeo[0] if anyone is interested.
[0] https://vimeo.com/ondemand/safetythird
[0] https://vimeo.com/ondemand/safetythird
An interesting point to note is that one of the world's strongest climbers, who recently put up the hardest problem in Fontainebleau, is Charles Albert, who spends most of his time climbing barefoot: https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/charles-albe...
A great article and a lovely author - he helped me develop some ideas on my final year essay while I studied at the University of Sheffield, even though he wasn't lecturing me.
Great article. I hadn't considered the physics of friction with rubber. I'd known about the temperature link with other uses such as rubber bands.
Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?
Hey bro, do you lift, bro? What are you at? Oh me, my 1rm dead is 375, bench 275, no belt, no gloves.
Hey bro, do you do intermittent fasting? Yeah I do keto too, I use a 24-48 cleanse, I'm in ketosis for twice as long now.
Hey bro, do you climb? Just redpointed a V7, up to 5.11c's on the wall after tearing a ligament on a wicked crimpy dyno. Yeah I'll be at Hueco the next two weeks.
Hey bro, do you code? Me, I write Clojure, I've been doing functional for a few years now. Hot reloading has so upped my game.
Hey bro, do you VPN? Yeah I use a pi-hole to my own vpc, all my connections are double encrypted in a VM, non-VPN traffic blocked at the gateway. No my https proxy scrubs all the cookies and I disabled persistent state in firefox.
Hey bro, do you blockchain? Yeah I use Z-coin for my farm, just got a shipment of new GPUs, I'm almost up to 2.3 teraflops.
Hey bro, do you self-host? Yeah I run my own dns, web server, file server, email server. My smart phone and smart watch have open-source firmware, and I'm betaing an openstreetmaps app.
Hey bro, do you startup? Yeah I bootstrapped 4 companies so far, two of them got round 3 funding, one's still in stealth, one was in the black for six months. Cashed out for a cool mil, reinvested into my next project, only worked 80 hours a week for two years. My old babysitter's uncle's cousin knows a Saudi prince so I'm pivoting to capture a different market.
Hey bro, do you do intermittent fasting? Yeah I do keto too, I use a 24-48 cleanse, I'm in ketosis for twice as long now.
Hey bro, do you climb? Just redpointed a V7, up to 5.11c's on the wall after tearing a ligament on a wicked crimpy dyno. Yeah I'll be at Hueco the next two weeks.
Hey bro, do you code? Me, I write Clojure, I've been doing functional for a few years now. Hot reloading has so upped my game.
Hey bro, do you VPN? Yeah I use a pi-hole to my own vpc, all my connections are double encrypted in a VM, non-VPN traffic blocked at the gateway. No my https proxy scrubs all the cookies and I disabled persistent state in firefox.
Hey bro, do you blockchain? Yeah I use Z-coin for my farm, just got a shipment of new GPUs, I'm almost up to 2.3 teraflops.
Hey bro, do you self-host? Yeah I run my own dns, web server, file server, email server. My smart phone and smart watch have open-source firmware, and I'm betaing an openstreetmaps app.
Hey bro, do you startup? Yeah I bootstrapped 4 companies so far, two of them got round 3 funding, one's still in stealth, one was in the black for six months. Cashed out for a cool mil, reinvested into my next project, only worked 80 hours a week for two years. My old babysitter's uncle's cousin knows a Saudi prince so I'm pivoting to capture a different market.
Hey bro, do you HN? Yeah, I'm almost 1700 karma and can quote URLs to pg's posts and quips from tptacek and patio11. Do you even showdead?
In SF you will absolutely hear multiple of these things from the same person haha. I love it.
I used to have this tendency — initially I wasn’t aware of it — I was just passionate and talked about what I wanted to talk about. Eventually became aware of it and lived a period where I still talked about rock climbing all the time/overly much — but I was passionate and it was what I wanted to talk about.
At the time Rock climbing was also a pretty social experience for me. I derived joy from talking about it with others — and some people can talk about their passions in a way that helps others feel inspired. That’s a good thing I think.
Now I don’t do it anymore — but a part of me is sad that I don’t because it reflects a decrease in my motivation and “psyche” for rock climbing and decrease in my desire to share that “psyche” with others.
At the time Rock climbing was also a pretty social experience for me. I derived joy from talking about it with others — and some people can talk about their passions in a way that helps others feel inspired. That’s a good thing I think.
Now I don’t do it anymore — but a part of me is sad that I don’t because it reflects a decrease in my motivation and “psyche” for rock climbing and decrease in my desire to share that “psyche” with others.
People like talking about things they are passionate about. For better or worse, climbing is the new "Tech Basic" thing to do, where lots of people in tech are recently getting into it, and therefore excited about it. It's a natural consequence, and a fact of human existence. People talk about their pets a lot because they spend a lot of time and energy with their pets. Same for kids. Same for programmers (who do it beyond work).
I hate being basic and following the crowd, but climbing is just so much fun. It is the most fun activity I've done, up there with Soccer....and easily the most fun individual activity.
The reward after doing a tough route is just incredible.
The reward after doing a tough route is just incredible.
> I hate being basic and following the crowd
As much as my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I don't mean to say you shouldn't do it because it's basic ;). I've been climbing for many many years and agree that it's extremely fun and rewarding. That doesn't change with more people enjoying it (but also stay home so I can get the good routes to myself ;) ).
As much as my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I don't mean to say you shouldn't do it because it's basic ;). I've been climbing for many many years and agree that it's extremely fun and rewarding. That doesn't change with more people enjoying it (but also stay home so I can get the good routes to myself ;) ).
I wear Chukka boots, flannels, OCBDs, white sneakers and olive chinos.
My hair are short on the sides and parted side on the top.
I am an Indian in tech, who got a masters in CS and will be on an H1b.
I might end up being basic, but as long as I do it out of my own free will, and not due to anyone else forcing it.....I can be at peace with myself.
> (but also stay home so I can get the good routes to myself
Sunday afternoon is it. I have been trying to go in the morning, but never wake up early enough.
My hair are short on the sides and parted side on the top.
I am an Indian in tech, who got a masters in CS and will be on an H1b.
I might end up being basic, but as long as I do it out of my own free will, and not due to anyone else forcing it.....I can be at peace with myself.
> (but also stay home so I can get the good routes to myself
Sunday afternoon is it. I have been trying to go in the morning, but never wake up early enough.
It the new skiing. Or maybe sailing and golfing, to a smaller extent. A thing well-off professionals go do (and yes, not just them, same as the other things) then come back and talk about.
Agree with the other reply, my perspective from a decade of rock climbing in the US is that this is almost if not totally inverted from the truth.
Rock climbing started with quite modest pioneers and was quickly joined by a lot of impoverished people. Their stories are easily found.
Even now with an industry spawned and high dollar protective and performance equipment available, the barrier to entry is very accessible, even more so if you live near outdoor areas that don't require an admittedly increasing gym membership.
Rock climbing started with quite modest pioneers and was quickly joined by a lot of impoverished people. Their stories are easily found.
Even now with an industry spawned and high dollar protective and performance equipment available, the barrier to entry is very accessible, even more so if you live near outdoor areas that don't require an admittedly increasing gym membership.
I don't think it's particularly a sport for well-off professionals at all. It just happens that most of the people we interact with in SF/SV are well-off professionals, so those are the climbers you know. If you go a different part of the country/world, you'll probably find climbers of way different demographics.
But climbing’s a lot cheaper than those things. If you’re in a midsize city you can get an unlimited gym membership for maybe $50 per month. Shoes, generously will run you $200 per year. That’s $800 per year all-in. The equipment alone, even without the travel or membership expenses, seems higher for the other hobbies listed.
I agree with you as far as startup costs go.
But your example is only if you only boulder indoors. Costs add up quickly if you want to move outdoors and want the flexibility to do a variety of climbs.
You can easily have a couple thousand dollars in gear.
Harness $70 Belay device $20-150 Rope $150+ (possibly multiple) Quickdraws $10-14 each, you probably want a dozen or so. Some slings Some carabiners
That'll get you outside and working on bolted routes.
Then you get into climbs that don't have man made bolts that you can clip into (trad climbing).
Each piece of protection at this level costs $60-80 new, and you'll probably want like 10 of them at least.
And it goes on and on.
But your example is only if you only boulder indoors. Costs add up quickly if you want to move outdoors and want the flexibility to do a variety of climbs.
You can easily have a couple thousand dollars in gear.
Harness $70 Belay device $20-150 Rope $150+ (possibly multiple) Quickdraws $10-14 each, you probably want a dozen or so. Some slings Some carabiners
That'll get you outside and working on bolted routes.
Then you get into climbs that don't have man made bolts that you can clip into (trad climbing).
Each piece of protection at this level costs $60-80 new, and you'll probably want like 10 of them at least.
And it goes on and on.
Yes and no. You can go a long time with very little gear.
I have a pretty nice trad rack, but most of the time I could get by with shoes, harness, belay device, etc. just because I'm typically climbing with other folks.
If you're learning to climb, then you really don't need the equipment beyond personal stuff at all because your partners will have it.
Like, I haven't had to use my rack for about the last 3 months just because the guy I was climbing with liked his better.
Not to mention that I have cams in my rack from the 90s... a lot of this stuff lasts a very long time and has a reasonable used market.
IME, it is way cheaper than, say, lift-serviced skiing or golfing.
It's like anything else, you could spend a lot. You could also live in your car and still afford to do this stuff.
I have a pretty nice trad rack, but most of the time I could get by with shoes, harness, belay device, etc. just because I'm typically climbing with other folks.
If you're learning to climb, then you really don't need the equipment beyond personal stuff at all because your partners will have it.
Like, I haven't had to use my rack for about the last 3 months just because the guy I was climbing with liked his better.
Not to mention that I have cams in my rack from the 90s... a lot of this stuff lasts a very long time and has a reasonable used market.
IME, it is way cheaper than, say, lift-serviced skiing or golfing.
It's like anything else, you could spend a lot. You could also live in your car and still afford to do this stuff.
You may be thinking of alpinism, where this is perhaps a little true. It's not true at all of rock climbing.
Having gotten pretty into climbing in the past year, I'll agree that it's an easy tendency to have. Climbing requires a lot of time and dedication to see steady improvement, and as a result, I find that it's one of the main hobbies/passions for many in the sport. Most people like to bring up their strong interests in conversation, but sometimes the jargon and general narratives around climbing can definitely be off-putting to someone less invested in it.
Are climbers any different from any of the other hobbyist subcultures out there?
We don't have as much climbing where I live, but we have a lot of cyclists, and yes, they're vocal.
We don't have as much climbing where I live, but we have a lot of cyclists, and yes, they're vocal.
Climbing is a bit different I think from all other sports. In running or cycling, if you are good, you are fast, if you are not so good, you are a bit slower, but you did the same track.
In climbing every boulder or route is different. And if you are not a really strong climber, you can't never ever climb for ex. "Action Direct" (you can't even leave the ground).
I don't think the companys are innovative. There are so many things you could better and safer than todays gear.
I don't think the companys are innovative. There are so many things you could better and safer than todays gear.
That's nothing, wait until you meet people that train jiu jitsu.
It seems to be one of those hobbies that becomes completely all-consuming. Every person I've ever known who gets into rock climbing, it's all they ever do; every weekend they go climbing, they talk about climbing, they get really into optimizing their climbing gear.
One other aspect I think it omitted, likely to balance brevity with scope, is about standard deviations.
When you only have the most rich and privileged doing a sport (e.g. travelling to summit mountains) the "best" will be selected from a relatively small pool of candidates. As an activity gains popularity, and as more people have the means to pursue it, the pool of people for "best" grows and it's no surprise that the max of the distribution increases.
There world's population has grown 2x since 1957 when El Capitan was first submitted. The number of people doing fitness in their free time, I'd suspect is up 10x or 100x. This is double true for activities like Chess or Olympic sports where nation states have started searching for talent in wider and wider ways.