Efforts to change the Japanese culture of extreme work weeks(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Efforts to change the Japanese culture of extreme work weeks
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200114-how-the-japanese-are-putting-an-end-to-death-from-overwork
119 comments
Unlimited leave is one of the those things that sounds great on the surface, but in practice not so much.
First of all, it's literally not unlimited and effectively boils down what you would've normally had anyway. But because of the murkiness and psychology involved it often results in people taking less time off than if they simply had N days of allocated vacation. It also means that if you quit or get laid off, the time you didn't take is worth $0. Additionally, as was alluded to, I've seen it breed resentment when people are seen as taking too much vacation.
The company has a big upside though, as they have less liability on the books.
Required minimum would help, but that's very rare.
First of all, it's literally not unlimited and effectively boils down what you would've normally had anyway. But because of the murkiness and psychology involved it often results in people taking less time off than if they simply had N days of allocated vacation. It also means that if you quit or get laid off, the time you didn't take is worth $0. Additionally, as was alluded to, I've seen it breed resentment when people are seen as taking too much vacation.
The company has a big upside though, as they have less liability on the books.
Required minimum would help, but that's very rare.
I worked at a well-known company with an unlimited vacation policy. Perhaps people did end up taking fewer overall holidays, but I would say the cognitive relief was worth it. If I needed a day off here and there, for any reason -- I knew I wouldn't have to stress about it.
Some days you just can't be arsed to go out.
Some days you just can't be arsed to go out.
Good point. That is an upside, I agree. For random days like that it's nice not having to think about deducting 8 hrs.
Going through a transition to unlimited PTO now. Here's hoping it doesn't turn into a shadow policy with unwritten expectations.
I've worked at a small, mid-sized and large company, and unlimited time off worked the same at all three places.
Unless it is an emergency, communicate early and often, and it is not a problem. That way, you and everyone who depends on you knows what to expect (or not) and when to expect it (or not).
The best part about it is not worrying over small details, like if I take my time off in the summer and fall, will I run out of PTO before flu season hits this winter?
Yes, it is unfortunate that you dont have anything to cash out once you quit, and you might worry about taking too much off. As to the first, oh well, take the time off. As to the second, if you can't have an honest and fair conversation with you boss about your concerns regarding time off, you aren't going to have honest or fair conversations about a lot of really important work matters that process and time-tracking and firm clear cut rules won't fix.
Expect to be treated like an adult, act like an adult, and if you aren't treated like one, take advantage of the good market now and find a better job. That advice applies to a lot of maybe-maybe worries in the workplace for in-demand positions.
Unless it is an emergency, communicate early and often, and it is not a problem. That way, you and everyone who depends on you knows what to expect (or not) and when to expect it (or not).
The best part about it is not worrying over small details, like if I take my time off in the summer and fall, will I run out of PTO before flu season hits this winter?
Yes, it is unfortunate that you dont have anything to cash out once you quit, and you might worry about taking too much off. As to the first, oh well, take the time off. As to the second, if you can't have an honest and fair conversation with you boss about your concerns regarding time off, you aren't going to have honest or fair conversations about a lot of really important work matters that process and time-tracking and firm clear cut rules won't fix.
Expect to be treated like an adult, act like an adult, and if you aren't treated like one, take advantage of the good market now and find a better job. That advice applies to a lot of maybe-maybe worries in the workplace for in-demand positions.
I absolutely hate unlimited time off. It turns it into a competition. If Jim managed to take 30 days this year and Joe only 15 effectively Jim got a free $15k to $30k bonus. There is all this pressure from both sides to use the least amount and to take the most.
All that disappears if you just give me a set number of days.
All that disappears if you just give me a set number of days.
Unlimited PTO is definitely less time off than advertised, but these horror stories of race-to-the-bottom zero-time-off cultures are largely unfounded. I worked in SF for two years while at a series B startup and by the nature of the industry and my role, got to know many people at different startups.
I took something like, 3 work weeks off per year; most people took a bit more than I did, with a few taking 6+ weeks off in a year. The guy who took the least vacation, that our manager had to remind to take time off, probably took around 1.5-2 weeks off.
I took something like, 3 work weeks off per year; most people took a bit more than I did, with a few taking 6+ weeks off in a year. The guy who took the least vacation, that our manager had to remind to take time off, probably took around 1.5-2 weeks off.
I, for one, took about five weeks off when working for a company with unlimited PTO.
It took some preparation and coordination, understanding my reasons (I had to settle some business overseas), but it was granted and paid for, and I was welcome to come back to work.
It took some preparation and coordination, understanding my reasons (I had to settle some business overseas), but it was granted and paid for, and I was welcome to come back to work.
> I think one of the easiest wins here would be what some US startups with unlimited leave were practicing: a required minimum of days off.
Any examples of companies that are doing this? I haven't heard of many, at least in the SF Bay Area.
Any examples of companies that are doing this? I haven't heard of many, at least in the SF Bay Area.
At GitLab we have a very flexible PTO policy and although I've never heard of a colleague being forced to take time off, we do have a couple of stern remarks codified in our handbook and constantly remind each other to do so:
> We don't frown on people taking time off, but rather encourage people to take care of themselves and others by having some time away. If you notice that your co-worker is working long hours over a sustained period, you may want to let them know about the time off policy.
> Not taking vacation is viewed as a weakness and people shouldn't boast about it. It is viewed as a lack of humility about your role, not fostering collaboration in training others in your job, and not being able to document and explain your work. You are doing the company a disservice by being a single point of failure. The company must be able to go for long periods without you. We don't want to lose you permanently by you burning yourself out by not taking regular vacations.
https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/paid-time-off/
> We don't frown on people taking time off, but rather encourage people to take care of themselves and others by having some time away. If you notice that your co-worker is working long hours over a sustained period, you may want to let them know about the time off policy.
> Not taking vacation is viewed as a weakness and people shouldn't boast about it. It is viewed as a lack of humility about your role, not fostering collaboration in training others in your job, and not being able to document and explain your work. You are doing the company a disservice by being a single point of failure. The company must be able to go for long periods without you. We don't want to lose you permanently by you burning yourself out by not taking regular vacations.
https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/paid-time-off/
LinkedIn does. The whole company goes on break for the 4th of July week and the last week of the year.
I feel Palantir used to and I think Netflix does
This reminds me of being an employee in Stockholm. You get scolded if you haven't booked thirty days of vacation into the calendar. Someone comes to your desk and makes you pick the dates.
You come back with a lot of energy too :-)
You come back with a lot of energy too :-)
> You come back with a lot of energy too :-)
"Man Returns To Work After Vacation With Fresh, Reenergized Hatred For Job"
* https://local.theonion.com/man-returns-to-work-after-vacatio...
"Man Returns To Work After Vacation With Fresh, Reenergized Hatred For Job"
* https://local.theonion.com/man-returns-to-work-after-vacatio...
Yeah, but that energy dissipates pretty quickly. I took three weeks off recently. I came back very energized and upbeat. It took maybe 2 days to get back to "normal".
Happened to me last week. Had to pick 23 days between now and 13th of April.
I picked at random, the `manager` and I both know I'll be working at home anyway.
I picked at random, the `manager` and I both know I'll be working at home anyway.
I honestly do not understand this mentality. You're given 23 paid days off, why would you donate that time back to your employer?
So that the employer will see him more favorably than the other employees at the same level when making decisions in which all other things are equal.
From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and the manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My dad was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he would have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone is like that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).
Although I'm not the same as my dad, I've long felt an individualist stubbornness that leads me to a similar conclusions. When I was a kid, we had a birthday party at a bowling alley and the attendants put the bumpers[1] up in our alley and wouldn't take them down. I was so incensed that I instead made a game of trying to whack the bowling ball hard enough against the bumpers to bounce over them. I was elated when I got one all the way into the next alley.
My gut reacts to the idea of "mandatory days off" in an intuitively similar way, even though I probably wouldn't be incensed about it the way I was about the bumpers in the bowling alley as a child. I'm probably on the extreme end of a cultural and value difference between Americans and Europeans.
[1]: https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0211010...
From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and the manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My dad was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he would have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone is like that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).
Although I'm not the same as my dad, I've long felt an individualist stubbornness that leads me to a similar conclusions. When I was a kid, we had a birthday party at a bowling alley and the attendants put the bumpers[1] up in our alley and wouldn't take them down. I was so incensed that I instead made a game of trying to whack the bowling ball hard enough against the bumpers to bounce over them. I was elated when I got one all the way into the next alley.
My gut reacts to the idea of "mandatory days off" in an intuitively similar way, even though I probably wouldn't be incensed about it the way I was about the bumpers in the bowling alley as a child. I'm probably on the extreme end of a cultural and value difference between Americans and Europeans.
[1]: https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0211010...
> So that the employer will see him more favorably than the other employees at the same level when making decisions in which all other things are equal.
There's a bit of that. The main reason though is that I am way out of touch and unable to separate work/whatever life for a bunch of different reasons. Let's say I am a mess right now and not caring much about losing vacation.
> From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and the manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My dad was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he would have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone is like that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).
Not really, maybe. I am a teamplayer and a people pleaser but I have some type A tendencies (types only tell a part of the story anyway). I have nothing to show for that though (not a top leet coder, not a top lead manager, etc. I am good, reliable but I am not shining).
I think if I was more "type A" I would not let such things happen.
> [1]: https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0211010....
How did you do that :D
There's a bit of that. The main reason though is that I am way out of touch and unable to separate work/whatever life for a bunch of different reasons. Let's say I am a mess right now and not caring much about losing vacation.
> From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and the manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My dad was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he would have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone is like that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).
Not really, maybe. I am a teamplayer and a people pleaser but I have some type A tendencies (types only tell a part of the story anyway). I have nothing to show for that though (not a top leet coder, not a top lead manager, etc. I am good, reliable but I am not shining).
I think if I was more "type A" I would not let such things happen.
> [1]: https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0211010....
How did you do that :D
Will you also donate 12% of your salary to the company?
Well... the company actually owes me money for travel expenses (which are the four digit numbers) that I had to pay upfront.
Mandatory leave is common in the financial sector, where it is used as an anti-fraud device. Keeping your employer from figuring out the scheme you're pulling is a lot harder when you have to have someone cover for you for two weeks.
It’s not just anti-fraud. If you force someone to take a vacation, you force the organization to be able to function without them. This prevents a situation where only a single person is able to make something critical work.
In Europe this is pretty standard practice everywhere. Say you have 30 days of vacation per year. You have to take at least 20, and 10 of those have to be consecutive. Otherwise your manager gets a bollocking from their manager and HR. In theory at least.
The rest of the days might be lost, transferred into next year’s vacation with a cutoff (like until end of Q1 next year or end of the year otherwise they are lost), or with no cutoff and they stack up forever.
The rest of the days might be lost, transferred into next year’s vacation with a cutoff (like until end of Q1 next year or end of the year otherwise they are lost), or with no cutoff and they stack up forever.
In Poland about the same, but with an interesting twist: it's not the company, or CEO, or HR, that risk a fine; the first person fined is your direct manager, personally. Works like a charm, I have to admit.
At least in Czech Republic, this is mandated by - you have to take your PTO in the calendar year it was awarded to you (20 days are mandated by law, by in practice companies give 25 to stay competitive) & your employer has to let you take it (not necessarily when you want, but it has to be in the calendar year).
If the PTO is not taken, the company can be fined by the state, so this is taken rather seriously.
If the PTO is not taken, the company can be fined by the state, so this is taken rather seriously.
It’s mandated by law almost everywhere in Europe but since countries don’t fully align their laws there may be significant some differences are n how many days and the actual conditions.
Here in Norway it is 5 workweeks (6 for those over 60 I think), 2 can be transferred (either way I think) and 3 are mandatory.
And if you delay two weeks to next year that means 5 mandatory weeks that year.
And: it is not just in theory. It is the law and both parts can get in trouble if you don't follow it.
And if you delay two weeks to next year that means 5 mandatory weeks that year.
And: it is not just in theory. It is the law and both parts can get in trouble if you don't follow it.
When people from here write "here", which "here" do they mean? The one here, or the one there?
Thanks for pointing it out. I've updated my post.
Yes, that's what experienced, too in Germany. Both in the private and public sector.
Agreed, this is a pretty good way to address the "bus number" problem in technical projects.
It also forces people to communicate details somewhat.
It also forces people to communicate details somewhat.
“Fatal bus error” as some call it.
Although around Old Street the buses don’t really go above walking speed.
Although around Old Street the buses don’t really go above walking speed.
I prefer the term “lottery factor”. Winning the lottery sounds a lot more positive than getting killed by a bus.
Won a bus, hit by the lottery.
Today I learned.
For others reading, here is what I found:
> at a minimum, covers those officers and employees involved or engaged in transactional business or having the ability to change the official records of the institution
https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
> The New York State Banking Department considers it to be a prudent business practice for every bank, and branch or agency of a foreign banking corporation, to promulgate and maintain a written vacation policy which, at a minimum, covers those officers and employees involved or engaged in transactional business or having the ability to change the official records of the institution. This policy should also cover all other staffers who are capable of influencing or causing such activities to occur. The Department strongly recommends that all traders be covered by the policy.
> Employees in such sensitive positions should be required to take at least two (2) consecutive weeks of vacation (or other leave) on an annual basis. During such time, the officer or employee must be off-site and off-line. In other words, not only should he/she be physically absent from your premises, but he/she should also not be permitted to effect any transactions or other banking business from off-site, such as through an off-site computer link.
https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
archived at: https://outline.com/Y3dcgF https://archive.md/LJvbH
For others reading, here is what I found:
> at a minimum, covers those officers and employees involved or engaged in transactional business or having the ability to change the official records of the institution
https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
> The New York State Banking Department considers it to be a prudent business practice for every bank, and branch or agency of a foreign banking corporation, to promulgate and maintain a written vacation policy which, at a minimum, covers those officers and employees involved or engaged in transactional business or having the ability to change the official records of the institution. This policy should also cover all other staffers who are capable of influencing or causing such activities to occur. The Department strongly recommends that all traders be covered by the policy.
> Employees in such sensitive positions should be required to take at least two (2) consecutive weeks of vacation (or other leave) on an annual basis. During such time, the officer or employee must be off-site and off-line. In other words, not only should he/she be physically absent from your premises, but he/she should also not be permitted to effect any transactions or other banking business from off-site, such as through an off-site computer link.
https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
archived at: https://outline.com/Y3dcgF https://archive.md/LJvbH
I used to work for a large (American) company where vacation days were traditionally accrued but there was a "cash-out vacation hours" button on the HR portal. It was just another way pressure people into working more hours.
Accrued leave is a liability on a company’s books, and it can easily become very large. Minimizing that liability is a typical motive behind such schemes.
At Philo, we believe so strongly that people need to take time off to do their best work, that we took it one step further — we pay people $1k / week to take at least 2 weeks off during the year. We also have unlimited PTO, and to my knowledge, have never rejected or discouraged a request for PTO.
It's also worth pointing out that most normal expenses (rent, food, etc.) don't stop when you take time off, so we decided that if we want people to feel like they can actually take a vacation and get away, we should actually be giving them a bonus from their normal salary to enable that.
We try to do a lot of things to respect our team and create a culture of positive work/life balance, and so far, we feel really good about the results of the tradeoffs we've made.
It's also worth pointing out that most normal expenses (rent, food, etc.) don't stop when you take time off, so we decided that if we want people to feel like they can actually take a vacation and get away, we should actually be giving them a bonus from their normal salary to enable that.
We try to do a lot of things to respect our team and create a culture of positive work/life balance, and so far, we feel really good about the results of the tradeoffs we've made.
Mandatory Leave is common in certain financial institutions. It's to make sure you can't keep a scam going that requires you to be the person doing something every day.
It won’t work because there’s no real labor regulation enforcement in a Japan and Abe and his cronies have no interest in fixing that either. Unpaid overtime and off-the-clock work is already a widespread problem in Japan. All you’d end up with is vacations on paper.
Workers are required to use five days of leave per year since last April. If they don't their employer can be fined.
I mean this is such an obvious solution I was pretty sure this is what the article would share as what Japan gov is mandating. So I kept reading and paragraphs after paragraphs discussed the problem without getting to what the title is. I gave up.
This law change is a first step but I don't see why you can't pass a law which forces companies to make a worker take the full minimum annual leave.
When I worked in Germany the company I worked at did that. You had until the end of the first quarter of the next year to use all of your vacation days. If you still had vacation left after this date, they forced you to take them until the end of the second quarter - this was frowned upon and managers made sure it wouldn't happen.
I'm not sure if this is a law or just something the company did but the problem here isn't peer pressure. It seems to be part of the business model of Japanese companies because implementing and enforcing such a policy is easy.
When I worked in Germany the company I worked at did that. You had until the end of the first quarter of the next year to use all of your vacation days. If you still had vacation left after this date, they forced you to take them until the end of the second quarter - this was frowned upon and managers made sure it wouldn't happen.
I'm not sure if this is a law or just something the company did but the problem here isn't peer pressure. It seems to be part of the business model of Japanese companies because implementing and enforcing such a policy is easy.
As strange as it may sound, passing that law might be really difficult. The article mentions "In September, Shinjiro Koizumi, Japan’s environment minister, faced widespread opposition and even calls to resign over his plans to take paternity leave after his wife gives birth."
Things are changing in Japan, but progress appears to be moving at a glacial pace.
Things are changing in Japan, but progress appears to be moving at a glacial pace.
And he was going to take a whole two weeks of paternity leave.
Ironically enough, Japan has one of the most generous paternity leaves in the entire world. It's just that no one* uses it.
https://qz.com/1084591/despite-japans-generous-paternity-lea...
https://qz.com/1084591/despite-japans-generous-paternity-lea...
Yes, and only for a plan to take ten days spread over three months. Apparently that’s bad enough for people to demand a resignation.
In some EU countries the laws mandate that it's the employers responsibility to provide the legally required vacation, because of the implict expectation that if the employee does not take the accrued vacation days then it's quite likely that it's not actually voluntary but because of some pressure by the employer or peers. Explicit pressure would be illegal, but since that's impractical to prove or enforce, 'sending' people to vacation (at least the minimum legal amount) is not just afforded, but required.
I ran the schedule for about 20 peers in a 24/7 shop (mostly because some MBA grad couldn't handle it but that's another story), and I was tasked with making folks took time off.
I was clear with everyone how it worked and always worked with everyone to make sure time off worked out for all involved. It really isn't that hard if you put the time in to getting along with folks / understanding what they want, etc.
Eventually though I would have to "force it". I'd schedule random days off here and there, suddenly a week off for some folks who never took time off. Most folks kinda liked it as a sort of "happy surprise". Everyone was salary so nobody lost any money or anything like that.
It actually worked out well, mostly because I made sure everyone knew what to expect / how it would happen if they just didn't use any PTO and I kept everyone up to date as to where they stood.
I was surprised by how many people just really ... never took time off until I made them.
I was clear with everyone how it worked and always worked with everyone to make sure time off worked out for all involved. It really isn't that hard if you put the time in to getting along with folks / understanding what they want, etc.
Eventually though I would have to "force it". I'd schedule random days off here and there, suddenly a week off for some folks who never took time off. Most folks kinda liked it as a sort of "happy surprise". Everyone was salary so nobody lost any money or anything like that.
It actually worked out well, mostly because I made sure everyone knew what to expect / how it would happen if they just didn't use any PTO and I kept everyone up to date as to where they stood.
I was surprised by how many people just really ... never took time off until I made them.
Why do you think people avoided time off?
I usually end up just taking all my vacation at the end of the year in a big block.
Part of the reason is we don't schedule anything very far in advance, so I am hesitant usually to use vacation days early in the year when I might want to use them later on.
Also, my work schedule is flexible enough that there is rarely a reason to take time off. If I need to leave early, I leave early. If I need to go to an appointment, I go to an appointment. None of it affects my time off.
And I guess maybe I just like routine?
Part of the reason is we don't schedule anything very far in advance, so I am hesitant usually to use vacation days early in the year when I might want to use them later on.
Also, my work schedule is flexible enough that there is rarely a reason to take time off. If I need to leave early, I leave early. If I need to go to an appointment, I go to an appointment. None of it affects my time off.
And I guess maybe I just like routine?
It's the midwest... people like to work.
It was also a really nice environment.
It was a sort of stress free ... high stress technical support situation. But everyone supported each other so it was surprisingly easy going.
It was also a really nice environment.
It was a sort of stress free ... high stress technical support situation. But everyone supported each other so it was surprisingly easy going.
One additional challenge that will need to be addressed in Japan is unreported overtime (サービス残業). Often my friends, upon preparing for a day off, will work about 8 hours of overtime beforehand and not report it on the time and attendance systems at their companies. From my understanding, unreported overtime is not always reflected in most statistics; even when self reporting I bet many people forget all the unreported overtime they do. Another example is rounding down: work 2.5 hours of overtime but only report 2.
I’m not sure what the solution is, but one idea is to lock out work laptops after a time limit, or at least record overtime when a work laptop is being used.
Until we can begin to accurately track and measure the unreported overtime, we won’t be able to improve it.
Finally, I think working in multicultural teams helps. When you see your peers have diverse beliefs and actions about work and life, you may be more willing to take more time off, and more accurately report the overtime you do take.
I’m not sure what the solution is, but one idea is to lock out work laptops after a time limit, or at least record overtime when a work laptop is being used.
Until we can begin to accurately track and measure the unreported overtime, we won’t be able to improve it.
Finally, I think working in multicultural teams helps. When you see your peers have diverse beliefs and actions about work and life, you may be more willing to take more time off, and more accurately report the overtime you do take.
I'm always curious to what extent work hours correlate with productivity. I think it was patio11 who shared his story of a salaryman co-worker fixing his bike in his cubicle on a Saturday he was "working" in the office.
And while I haven't seen first-hand the Japanese style overwork, I have seen Silicon Valley startup "overwork" up close and have similar concerns. My pet theory is that in early-stage startups it's so unclear what is actually valuable and productive work that the overwork becomes a proxy for productivity.
And while I haven't seen first-hand the Japanese style overwork, I have seen Silicon Valley startup "overwork" up close and have similar concerns. My pet theory is that in early-stage startups it's so unclear what is actually valuable and productive work that the overwork becomes a proxy for productivity.
Overworking East Asians end up spending a lot of time completely zonked out at their desks, scooting the mouse cursor back and forth over the same spreadsheet or Word doc until it's time to go home
Tokyo Sonata is a pretty good fictional movie about the honor associated with working. Some salarymen would fake a job, leaving each day in a suit. On the other side of the spectrum, there are people forced into quitting because they would go to work and sit in a room all day since management didn't want the dishonor of firing someone. It definitely comes across as odd to a foreigner.
The issue is that most startups are in survival mode and hence has a natural pressure from that. The trick is to manage expectation at IC level. Knowing that there is this natural pressure commit to only what you can deliver in 15hrs/week. Then work "hard" and overdeliver equivalent of 30hrs/week. Spend 10hrs on above the weed activity (evaluate, measure, communicate, course correct etc.). Be religious about this template.
Both Japan and US/Vacation should have more yearly vacation at least 4-5 weeks. I think it would be very beneficial to general mental health. Also to have less exposure to advertisement which recently has also shown to have a negative effect on health - https://hbr.org/2020/01/advertising-makes-us-unhappy.
It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before your manager left whatever time that was.
It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before your manager left whatever time that was.
> It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before your manager left whatever time that was.
"used to be"? has this changed? I thought this was still the case in the older salary-men type companies.
"used to be"? has this changed? I thought this was still the case in the older salary-men type companies.
I think my manager feels bad about leaving the office if I’m still inside, but that’s more like the opposite.
My sister-in-law works in a tiny company doing graphic design. It's the same thing. Can't leave until the boss does.
She recently came to visit us in my home country for Christmas whereupon I learned that she has a 2 hour commute each way on purpose because of this. I asked her isn't commuting 4 hours a day just awful, why don't you live closer to work? And she replied that if she lived closer to work she would simply be at work longer and having a long commute means 4 hours a day she can spend not doing work stuff but doing things like listening to music and playing games on her phone.
She recently came to visit us in my home country for Christmas whereupon I learned that she has a 2 hour commute each way on purpose because of this. I asked her isn't commuting 4 hours a day just awful, why don't you live closer to work? And she replied that if she lived closer to work she would simply be at work longer and having a long commute means 4 hours a day she can spend not doing work stuff but doing things like listening to music and playing games on her phone.
Used to be?
Still is.
Still is.
The issue in Japan is that even if you have (say) 3 weeks of vacation, it's considered bad form to actually use more than a few days.
This is one reason why Japan has so many public holidays: it's a way to legally enforce that most salarymen get some time off.
This is one reason why Japan has so many public holidays: it's a way to legally enforce that most salarymen get some time off.
My job gives me enough leave that if I timed it with certain holiday breaks we get I could be off for well over a month. My wife's job gives her seven days of vacation total.
"My wife's job gives her seven days of vacation total."
That's just nuts. I had 15 for a while and it felt to me like I could never get a break and life was just a never ending string of work.
That's just nuts. I had 15 for a while and it felt to me like I could never get a break and life was just a never ending string of work.
15 is three whole weeks, not so bad. At some point my brainwashing was complete, now I'm on a race to accumulate maximum wealth before retirement. I spend a lot of my days off doing things that will increase earnings.
"When asked about colleagues’ reactions to taking time off, he adds: They would react negatively. They will not say anything directly to that person but they will speak ill of that person behind their back"
This nails it. That pang of guilt and horror knowing you'll be reacted to in such a seemingly viscous way just stops you dead in your tracks.
I think the silly thing is it's always framed as "maintaining the group harmony" but it's more like maintaining the group misery.
Why do the co-workers react the way they do? It's such a bitter way to react. "I can't take time off because you'd be mad at me for doing so, because it would put you out, yet you're ok with taking time off and putting me out? What kind of bullshit is that? I'm definitely very mad at you!".
So the idea is that you don't want to do anything that would make anyone mad at you because "that's not what Japanese do".
It's just so circular.
This nails it. That pang of guilt and horror knowing you'll be reacted to in such a seemingly viscous way just stops you dead in your tracks.
I think the silly thing is it's always framed as "maintaining the group harmony" but it's more like maintaining the group misery.
Why do the co-workers react the way they do? It's such a bitter way to react. "I can't take time off because you'd be mad at me for doing so, because it would put you out, yet you're ok with taking time off and putting me out? What kind of bullshit is that? I'm definitely very mad at you!".
So the idea is that you don't want to do anything that would make anyone mad at you because "that's not what Japanese do".
It's just so circular.
I think it’s much simpler than that. They are rewarded to stay late by you keeping a job. The guy who leaves early will be the first to get let go. That is the real problem.
I keep hearing that Japanese workers work very long hours, but every time I've been in Tokyo the rush hour on the trains is about when I'd expect it to be -- between about 5 and 7 pm. I don't see how that would be the case if everyone was still at work.
I... don’t think the rush hour really ends until somewhere around 11pm.
There’s another rush hour between 9 and 11 pm.
Another way to confirm this is to compare with the morning rush hour. Way more crowded as most people start work at around the same time (most companies have a starting time of 9 or 10 am).
Another way to confirm this is to compare with the morning rush hour. Way more crowded as most people start work at around the same time (most companies have a starting time of 9 or 10 am).
I can confirm. I used to live in Kawasaki in 2010 and I regularly visit Japan from California for vacation and business. The morning rush hour is relatively short (roughly 7am to past 9am) but intensely congested due to the fact that most companies start work around the same time, and lateness is verboten. However, the evening commute is not as sharply congested, although it can still be standing room-only on the trains. The evening commute begins as early as 5pm but could last until the last train, typically around midnight. This is not only due to people working overtime, but also due to coworkers and colleagues going out at night for drinking and other activities. This was a regular occurrence for my colleagues and me back when I was interning at a Japanese company a decade ago in Kawasaki.
The corporate salaryman isn't 100% of Japanese adults as it sometimes seems in these threads. It's somewhere around 20% to 30%, as it is for white-collar jobs everywhere.
> “While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical, Japanese society is collectivist and hierarchical,” explains Hiroshi Ono, professor of human resources management at Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in Japan’s work culture.
i am not a researcher, but i dont think that’s the root cause, since
1. there are many types of “western culture” and 2. if it were a sign of collectivist vs individualistic the the u.s should be fairly low on the list but appears above japan! [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking
——-
just my opinion from working in jp for more than 10 years, but the only thing that will truly fix the overwork problem will be to officially change the workweek to 4 days... they tried something like this with “premium friday” [2] which went absolutely nowhere...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Friday
i am not a researcher, but i dont think that’s the root cause, since
1. there are many types of “western culture” and 2. if it were a sign of collectivist vs individualistic the the u.s should be fairly low on the list but appears above japan! [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking
——-
just my opinion from working in jp for more than 10 years, but the only thing that will truly fix the overwork problem will be to officially change the workweek to 4 days... they tried something like this with “premium friday” [2] which went absolutely nowhere...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Friday
I feel very fortunate and grateful that I was able to send this Slack message to my team on December 19:
“ @here I want to thank everyone for a great year. We’ve accomplished a ton, and I think we need to stop and recognize it. My ask for everyone is to take the week off next week. We have a few things we need to be on-call for, and heaven knows we could use the time to write more tests, but I think it is important to pause, rest, and reflect.”
Im so glad that this is totally cool in our company and our culture. I wish this was the rule and not the exception.
“ @here I want to thank everyone for a great year. We’ve accomplished a ton, and I think we need to stop and recognize it. My ask for everyone is to take the week off next week. We have a few things we need to be on-call for, and heaven knows we could use the time to write more tests, but I think it is important to pause, rest, and reflect.”
Im so glad that this is totally cool in our company and our culture. I wish this was the rule and not the exception.
Your team might have appreciated more notice! Then maybe their SOs could have coordinated spending time with them, childcare, etc.
That’s a fair point. The reality is that they all could have taken the time off individually anyway, this was just a small gesture to show my thanks for a great year!
USA gets bashed a lot on employment front, but only because we are way more transparent about our problems than Japan. Yes, the extreme work culture causing karōshi is a big issue. However, Japan also has serious workplace discrimination issues that never get talked about.
For example, how many here have ever heard of Burakumin[1]? It's a taboo subject to talk about in Japan, so it is rare you'll hear of it through mainstream news.
Basically, in many places in southern Japan, when you apply for a job, employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors were burakumin (held "impure" occupations in the feudal era like butcher, tanner, etc). If so, they won't hire you.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
For example, how many here have ever heard of Burakumin[1]? It's a taboo subject to talk about in Japan, so it is rare you'll hear of it through mainstream news.
Basically, in many places in southern Japan, when you apply for a job, employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors were burakumin (held "impure" occupations in the feudal era like butcher, tanner, etc). If so, they won't hire you.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
Or, you know, women.
> employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors were burakumin
Do you have a source for that?
Do you have a source for that?
Can you not change your surname?
It's actually exceedingly difficult. The family registry, koseki, is steeped in a thousand years of tradition. You can't simply walk into the nearest city ward office and fill out a form.
There are also restrictions on the kinds of names you are allowed to choose, if for example you are naturalizing. The list of allowed names clearly distinguishes you and your family from "true" Japanese.
There are also restrictions on the kinds of names you are allowed to choose, if for example you are naturalizing. The list of allowed names clearly distinguishes you and your family from "true" Japanese.
That seems a bit crazy? When I married I also had the option of taking my wife’s (Japanese) name, so that would make me indistinguishable from a native.
Actually only by surname you can only guess; there are some demographic distribution which some name are more common among. But this is not very accurate as people have moved around and with marriages and such, it's not always the case any more. (Japanese law still requires wives to convert to husband's in a conventional marriage.)
Source of information that often cited as is a 本籍 (honseki -- a location of where national registry is filed and hence, stored.) This information used to be required for a lot of the places (including driver's license, job application, among others) but because of this abuse, this is no longer a commonly collected information unless it is required. (And also you can change honseki, too.)
Source of information that often cited as is a 本籍 (honseki -- a location of where national registry is filed and hence, stored.) This information used to be required for a lot of the places (including driver's license, job application, among others) but because of this abuse, this is no longer a commonly collected information unless it is required. (And also you can change honseki, too.)
The extent to which burakumin discrimination still exists is itself a hotly debated topic. One of the two main buraku rights groups disbanded in 2004 because they felt the issue had been resolved, and (IMHO) at least in Tokyo literally nobody cares anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin#Buraku_Liberation_Le...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin#Buraku_Liberation_Le...
I won't say all, but good portion of buraku discrimination is driven actually by these buraku rights group. There are bit of concessions exist (via affirmative action for instance) and there are some incentive that some of those groups want keep this issue alive for the sake of that, rather than try to actually resolve the issue somehow.
Like you said, a lot of people don't care, especially in urban regions, because the concept of buraku itself is fairly foreign to people living there. Maybe this is but more prominent in rulal areas.
Like you said, a lot of people don't care, especially in urban regions, because the concept of buraku itself is fairly foreign to people living there. Maybe this is but more prominent in rulal areas.
oefrha(1)
I have read about discriminatino based on blood types as well. Do you have any feeling about how prevelant that may be?
Blood types in Japan are very analogous to astrological signs in the US. There are a lot of people who believe your blood type says things about you, and a small fraction who say rude things about them or make important decisions based on them, but to call it "discrimination" implies a level of prevalence which isn't really there.
There’s a lot of sitting around and doing nothing in East Asian office work culture. It’s similar to investment banking where you are not necessarily using your brain/energy but you are still at the office for insane hours churning out 100 different versions of the handouts.
> “While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical, Japanese society is collectivist and hierarchical,” explains Hiroshi Ono, professor of human resources management at Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in Japan’s work culture. “Thus, many people refrain from taking holiday because their bosses do not take holiday, or they are afraid that it will disrupt the group harmony.”
Just FYI, this is complete pablum. While it’s true that Japanese society has a collectivist bent, that this by default maps to some authoritarian business culture, elides the political and ideological project of the right wing in Japan.
Prior to the war and up into the 1970s, Japan was a hotbed of radical politics and labor activism that roiled the country. Unions dominated many industries, socialists and communists won major parliamentary victories, and Japanese thinkers and activists were on the vanguard of many left wing movements.
This state of affairs was, however, completely unacceptable to the US. And so they proceeded to massively subsidize right wing politicians, work with organized crime to intimidate and disrupt unionized workers, and gather intelligence against opposition to the LDP’s rule.
https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-...
So if you want to understand why the country has devolved into this kind of crushing exploitation and culture of suffering, you really need to begin with the fact that the US rehabilitated a bunch of fascists, helped orchestrate their rule over the postwar order, and crushed all meaningful challenge to this state of affairs. There’s nothing inherent to the Japanese people that makes any of this necessary.
Just FYI, this is complete pablum. While it’s true that Japanese society has a collectivist bent, that this by default maps to some authoritarian business culture, elides the political and ideological project of the right wing in Japan.
Prior to the war and up into the 1970s, Japan was a hotbed of radical politics and labor activism that roiled the country. Unions dominated many industries, socialists and communists won major parliamentary victories, and Japanese thinkers and activists were on the vanguard of many left wing movements.
This state of affairs was, however, completely unacceptable to the US. And so they proceeded to massively subsidize right wing politicians, work with organized crime to intimidate and disrupt unionized workers, and gather intelligence against opposition to the LDP’s rule.
https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-...
So if you want to understand why the country has devolved into this kind of crushing exploitation and culture of suffering, you really need to begin with the fact that the US rehabilitated a bunch of fascists, helped orchestrate their rule over the postwar order, and crushed all meaningful challenge to this state of affairs. There’s nothing inherent to the Japanese people that makes any of this necessary.
Similar thing happened in Italy after WW2. There's a small wiki entry for it [1] but for those curious I guess a quick google search will reveal lots of related articles.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy#Cold_W...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy#Cold_W...
Yes, it was actually Europe-wide. Secret weapon caches were spread across Europe so that right-wing paramilitaries could stage coups if leftists ever took power:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
Did not know that. Thanks for the heads up!
The author of this article, Tim Weiner, wrote a great book about the history of the CIA called, “Legacy of Ashes.” It covers the history of these operations in Japan and across Europe.
I wonder if there is opportunity to set up a startup in Japan where you actually treat your staff like real human beings and set the precedence of an inclusive and sustainable culture from day 1
You would face an uphill battle against culture, and people might honestly be uncomfortable working for you.
Maybe younger people?
Maybe younger people?
Can someone explain something to me? I hear a lot about Japan's extreme work culture; I've even heard of a workplace where your contributions were scored -- but only negative (penalty) scores existed.
How can this come out of the same country as the Toyota production system, the popularization of quality control, and the intense study of Deming?
How can this come out of the same country as the Toyota production system, the popularization of quality control, and the intense study of Deming?
I feel like I've seen articles like this for decades.
I feel like I’ve been reading comments like this for decades.
...though what I hear is that they are really serious about it in Japan, and Korea, too. And slowly the worked hours are decreasing. For sure it is slowed down by the Keiretsus and the Jaebols almost having power of government.
[deleted]
How would people react in the US if the Secretary of Energy took paternity leave?
Great! Less damage those oil lobbyists can do.
Somewhat related: The New Zealand Prime Minister recently took Maternity leave and for most people it was no big deal
Just looked it up, and the guy apparently has 9 kids already. So it's not out of the question...
not at all?
Disclosure: work in japan
What I have realized talking to the native people here is that working late is due to :
1. Impress peers and managers 2. Impress wife and her friends that you are important to the company 3. (For people with young kids) Not be a nuisance to the sleeping schedule of kids by coming early 4. Nothing much to do after going home because of lack of intimacy with spouse/partner 5. Actual work requirements 6. To earn overtime pay since basic pay is too low to cover all the expenses.
People have different reasons at different points in time.
What I have realized talking to the native people here is that working late is due to :
1. Impress peers and managers 2. Impress wife and her friends that you are important to the company 3. (For people with young kids) Not be a nuisance to the sleeping schedule of kids by coming early 4. Nothing much to do after going home because of lack of intimacy with spouse/partner 5. Actual work requirements 6. To earn overtime pay since basic pay is too low to cover all the expenses.
People have different reasons at different points in time.
After all, wouldn't it help a country's overall economy if more if its citizens took holidays and vacations locally more often?
Japan has an amazing diversity of environments, biomes and subcultures. It's a shame if their own people are usually too busy to enjoy much of that.
Japan has an amazing diversity of environments, biomes and subcultures. It's a shame if their own people are usually too busy to enjoy much of that.
Note: Working in Japan
The entire company got a mail from HR last week asking people to please take at least 5 days off every year.
My team is international, so we all had a good laugh, but it was a bit disturbing to think enough of my colleagues take so little time off that it prompts this email...
The entire company got a mail from HR last week asking people to please take at least 5 days off every year.
My team is international, so we all had a good laugh, but it was a bit disturbing to think enough of my colleagues take so little time off that it prompts this email...
[deleted]
Two days off for the whole year?!
Let's remove the Japanese cultural aspect for the sake of argument. Its relevant but lets keep it general.
You'd be amazed how much you can glean from even something as apparently simple as staff leave entitlements.
Based on my experience in a previous type of role interacting with "less than stellar" businesses, here's how I'd review that guys manager and company performance:
That guy's manager is either incompetent or in a high stress environment themselves from on-high. They don't know how to manage people. Likely running all staff at overload. They are therefore underperforming with fatigue an issue. Likely error rate is excessive, or worse, minor mistakes are being covered up and are already on slow burn to becoming larger ones. Fear is a factor in all decisions involving responsibility. CYA is overused.
Leadership is probably running the business poorly across multiple measures. Untested or non-existent disaster contingency plans. Every person is either a critical link or near one. Too much in each persons head because they are too scared to share information. Proliferation of business silos. Entire groups are isolated from each other. Pointless duplication of work or systems. Managers increase headcount for power but then purge when expenses get flagged.
Embezzlement or some other fraud is likely because no one is second guessing the day-in-day-out work. The corrupt group are left to run continuously and uninterrupted because no one honest takes the reins at regular intervals. No rotation of staff at any particular point needed because no one really goes on leave. Financial mismanagement at minimum is likely even if fraud is not present.
Poor social inclusion/cohesion. Staff are isolated from their communities and those links are shaky or broken. This is not good for anyone and the damage will flow back in other ways. Low cohesive people later turn into messes of their own and in turn result in increasing turnover overall or worse they stay and lower performance of themselves or others. Bullying/mobbing are likely present.
Since corporations are legal individuals, this one is a workaholic jerk that doesn't play well with others and at extreme is headed for prison / bankruptcy / or both. Even if the corporation succeeds its still a failure since it had to sacrifice so much to get there it barely got there at all. Dying at the summit is not success when the real success is returning to what matters. Plenty of companies are run this close to failure. Next financial hiccup will cause this company to trip or fall over.
And that's how much you can link from staff leave entitlements. Its a lazy way of identifying red flags for sure. Some of these are only related because a company with bad leave arrangements is of a certain design or style. But the financial aspects have served me well as a rule of thumb. Culture matters. Be very suspicious of short leave entitlements and actual usage as they hide a multitude of sins and dysfunctions.
Let's remove the Japanese cultural aspect for the sake of argument. Its relevant but lets keep it general.
You'd be amazed how much you can glean from even something as apparently simple as staff leave entitlements.
Based on my experience in a previous type of role interacting with "less than stellar" businesses, here's how I'd review that guys manager and company performance:
That guy's manager is either incompetent or in a high stress environment themselves from on-high. They don't know how to manage people. Likely running all staff at overload. They are therefore underperforming with fatigue an issue. Likely error rate is excessive, or worse, minor mistakes are being covered up and are already on slow burn to becoming larger ones. Fear is a factor in all decisions involving responsibility. CYA is overused.
Leadership is probably running the business poorly across multiple measures. Untested or non-existent disaster contingency plans. Every person is either a critical link or near one. Too much in each persons head because they are too scared to share information. Proliferation of business silos. Entire groups are isolated from each other. Pointless duplication of work or systems. Managers increase headcount for power but then purge when expenses get flagged.
Embezzlement or some other fraud is likely because no one is second guessing the day-in-day-out work. The corrupt group are left to run continuously and uninterrupted because no one honest takes the reins at regular intervals. No rotation of staff at any particular point needed because no one really goes on leave. Financial mismanagement at minimum is likely even if fraud is not present.
Poor social inclusion/cohesion. Staff are isolated from their communities and those links are shaky or broken. This is not good for anyone and the damage will flow back in other ways. Low cohesive people later turn into messes of their own and in turn result in increasing turnover overall or worse they stay and lower performance of themselves or others. Bullying/mobbing are likely present.
Since corporations are legal individuals, this one is a workaholic jerk that doesn't play well with others and at extreme is headed for prison / bankruptcy / or both. Even if the corporation succeeds its still a failure since it had to sacrifice so much to get there it barely got there at all. Dying at the summit is not success when the real success is returning to what matters. Plenty of companies are run this close to failure. Next financial hiccup will cause this company to trip or fall over.
And that's how much you can link from staff leave entitlements. Its a lazy way of identifying red flags for sure. Some of these are only related because a company with bad leave arrangements is of a certain design or style. But the financial aspects have served me well as a rule of thumb. Culture matters. Be very suspicious of short leave entitlements and actual usage as they hide a multitude of sins and dysfunctions.
Usually there were two check ins and if you didn't burn a minimum of leave by then, your manager would take your work laptop and send you home on paid leave until you met it.
Once leave becomes mandatory.. you can't judge people for taking it. Obviously the goal is for them to want to use the leave (and plan what they want to do with it) instead of forcing them to take it, but it's a leveling action.