Elon Musk’s plan to build one Starship a week and settle Mars(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Elon Musk’s plan to build one Starship a week and settle Mars
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/03/inside-elon-musks-plan-to-build-one-starship-a-week-and-settle-mars/
350 comments
The pace of innovation here is absolutely ludicrous. They designed and built a custom welding machine _and_ a custom x-ray machine for building tank domes in four weeks? They've gone from a production rate of one prototype in 8 months to one prototype every 2 weeks in less than a year. They doubled the size of their workforce in less than 48 hours. I'm gonna have to agree with the article author here: this is absolutely mad.
It's really helping them that they have some of the most motivated employees on Earth. Their people absolutely believe in this vision of colonizing Mars just as much as Elon Musk does. (Hell, I do too, I just don't work there.)
Meanwhile I'm working at an advertising company.
Meanwhile I'm working at an advertising company.
> Meanwhile I'm working at an advertising company.
That's a funny way to spell Google.
That's a funny way to spell Google.
[deleted]
You could set up the first billboard on Mars!
"There are {$RANDOM_NUMBER} single girls waiting for men like you near Hellas Planitiae"
"Meet local girls in low Mars orbit tonight!"
https://xkcd.com/713/
https://xkcd.com/713/
...not to mention talented. There is a massive efficiency multiplier when you combine multiple brilliant and experienced people together.
>They designed and built a custom welding machine _and_ a custom x-ray machine for building tank domes in four weeks?
That's feasible due to the requirements being narrow and specific, and also well understood by a team close to the team building those machines.
Contrast that with expensive & slow-to-build machines available on the general market, where the requirements are broad, under-specified, and always shifting.
That's feasible due to the requirements being narrow and specific, and also well understood by a team close to the team building those machines.
Contrast that with expensive & slow-to-build machines available on the general market, where the requirements are broad, under-specified, and always shifting.
Perhaps it's a demonstration that the market should have more tools as composable building blocks, rather than turn-key solutions.
>building blocks
Yeah, we seem to have strayed a bit too much towards the turn-key end of the spectrum.
IMO both have their rightful place on an open market. The problem with managing building from blocks is that it requires innovation for end results, and, as the saying goes, "Innovation is hard to schedule" (with apologies to Dan Fylstra).
Yeah, we seem to have strayed a bit too much towards the turn-key end of the spectrum.
IMO both have their rightful place on an open market. The problem with managing building from blocks is that it requires innovation for end results, and, as the saying goes, "Innovation is hard to schedule" (with apologies to Dan Fylstra).
>They designed and built a custom welding machine _and_ a custom X-Ray machine for building tank domes in four weeks?
Can any engineer speak to whether this is actually progress, or even necessary? It seems like every time something goes wrong, Elon "invents" a way to do it better.
I'm old enough to remember rescue subs, battery swaps, brain implants that will cure autism, factories spitting out factories, solar shingles, truck carriers, one-hour body shop service, tunnels at a fraction of the cost, the ability to identify squeaks in your car with your phone, robots assembling cars so fast they need a strobe light to be seen...
Can any engineer speak to whether this is actually progress, or even necessary? It seems like every time something goes wrong, Elon "invents" a way to do it better.
I'm old enough to remember rescue subs, battery swaps, brain implants that will cure autism, factories spitting out factories, solar shingles, truck carriers, one-hour body shop service, tunnels at a fraction of the cost, the ability to identify squeaks in your car with your phone, robots assembling cars so fast they need a strobe light to be seen...
I can't speak to how common that sort of custom tooling is in the industry, but as to whether it was necessary the article already explains that pretty clearly:
> The current process for building a pressure dome takes about a week; 1 or 2 days to tack up and fit steel sheets, 4 days to weld the sheets together, and 1 to 2 days for X-ray inspections and repairs.
> [...]
> The knuckle seamer looks something like a giant zipper that articulates over the front and back of a dome, like a taco shell around its filling. [...] Then, in about 10 minutes, an automated torch will trace down the length of the curve, providing a precise weld. Following this, the dome is rotated to bring the next seam into view.
> [...]
> With this new X-ray machine, SpaceX hopes to compress a process that can take a day down to a few hours.
So the new machines reduce the amount of time needed to weld and inspect a pressure dome from several days to several hours. I'm certainly no expert, but that seems like a pretty big deal to me.
> The current process for building a pressure dome takes about a week; 1 or 2 days to tack up and fit steel sheets, 4 days to weld the sheets together, and 1 to 2 days for X-ray inspections and repairs.
> [...]
> The knuckle seamer looks something like a giant zipper that articulates over the front and back of a dome, like a taco shell around its filling. [...] Then, in about 10 minutes, an automated torch will trace down the length of the curve, providing a precise weld. Following this, the dome is rotated to bring the next seam into view.
> [...]
> With this new X-ray machine, SpaceX hopes to compress a process that can take a day down to a few hours.
So the new machines reduce the amount of time needed to weld and inspect a pressure dome from several days to several hours. I'm certainly no expert, but that seems like a pretty big deal to me.
I'm not in that area, but I struggle to find an analogue of a large pressurized tank on Earth where mass is the dominant cost factor.
You might have equally big tanks on Earth, under equal pressures, but it will be more cost-effective to just increase the material used on the shell of the tank to solve your problems. Whereas in space, every kg that can theoretically be removed from the launch vehicle is worth investing in, even if it raises the cost of engineering and materials.
So yes it seems reasonable to me that these are groundbreaking challenges.
You might have equally big tanks on Earth, under equal pressures, but it will be more cost-effective to just increase the material used on the shell of the tank to solve your problems. Whereas in space, every kg that can theoretically be removed from the launch vehicle is worth investing in, even if it raises the cost of engineering and materials.
So yes it seems reasonable to me that these are groundbreaking challenges.
>where mass is the dominant cost factor.
The compounding importance of mass is one factor here, but only half the story. The other half is how SpaceX' quick iterations and ability to retire vehicles early allows ample room to experiment and also to shave off safety factors.
In the more mundane aerospace engineering mass is quite important, but the manufacturing, servicing, longevity etc. are pretty important considerations too. A typical airplane is designed for manufacture of some 200 ... 2000 units and to remain in use for 1 ... 3 decades. This, together with the usual requirement for human flight ratings, ends up dictating rather high safety margins for designs.
Contrast that with SpaceX' vehicles which are supposed to perform a dozen unmanned flights each at most, and where one-way mission of a vehicle is a perfectly feasible strategy for testing while still making decent revenue.
Quick iterations get shit done in aerospace. Among historical examples, that's how MacCready's Gossamer Albatross[1] record-breaker came to be, where other teams failed.
--
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacCready_Gossamer_Albatross
The compounding importance of mass is one factor here, but only half the story. The other half is how SpaceX' quick iterations and ability to retire vehicles early allows ample room to experiment and also to shave off safety factors.
In the more mundane aerospace engineering mass is quite important, but the manufacturing, servicing, longevity etc. are pretty important considerations too. A typical airplane is designed for manufacture of some 200 ... 2000 units and to remain in use for 1 ... 3 decades. This, together with the usual requirement for human flight ratings, ends up dictating rather high safety margins for designs.
Contrast that with SpaceX' vehicles which are supposed to perform a dozen unmanned flights each at most, and where one-way mission of a vehicle is a perfectly feasible strategy for testing while still making decent revenue.
Quick iterations get shit done in aerospace. Among historical examples, that's how MacCready's Gossamer Albatross[1] record-breaker came to be, where other teams failed.
--
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacCready_Gossamer_Albatross
>I'm not in that area, but I struggle to find an analogue of a large pressurized tank on Earth where mass is the dominant cost factor.
If you stretch the definition of "tank" and "on Earth" then modern pressurized airliner cabins definitely qualify.
If you stretch the definition of "tank" and "on Earth" then modern pressurized airliner cabins definitely qualify.
>modern pressurized airliner cabins
It's a good reference point, even if there are some key differences worth mentioning.
First up, an airliner fuselage is specced for tens of thousands of pressure cycles; needs to sustain the wear & tear, accumulated stress, and distortion. The rocket needs to handle maybe a dozen pressure cycles at most, and it is feasible to only handle one cycle for first few experimental vehicles.
Secondly, the airliner fuselage has much more complex shape, due to conflicting needs for aerodynamics, attachment of wings & control surfaces, etc.. This, together with varying materials and large openings concentrates stresses in key points. The rocket tank is as close to a big dumb uniform pipe as you can get. Even better, a rocket may rely on internal pressure for structural rigidity, while airliner needs to handle depressurization.
Lastly, the Starship is designed to survive re-entry, thus heat resistance is a major concern there; not anymore for an airliner ever since the Concorde SSTO got retired.
It's a good reference point, even if there are some key differences worth mentioning.
First up, an airliner fuselage is specced for tens of thousands of pressure cycles; needs to sustain the wear & tear, accumulated stress, and distortion. The rocket needs to handle maybe a dozen pressure cycles at most, and it is feasible to only handle one cycle for first few experimental vehicles.
Secondly, the airliner fuselage has much more complex shape, due to conflicting needs for aerodynamics, attachment of wings & control surfaces, etc.. This, together with varying materials and large openings concentrates stresses in key points. The rocket tank is as close to a big dumb uniform pipe as you can get. Even better, a rocket may rely on internal pressure for structural rigidity, while airliner needs to handle depressurization.
Lastly, the Starship is designed to survive re-entry, thus heat resistance is a major concern there; not anymore for an airliner ever since the Concorde SSTO got retired.
>So yes it seems reasonable to me that these are groundbreaking challenges.
Isn't weld strength something engineers would know/understand in advance, though? How would it come as a surprise that the welds would fail under pressure?
It seems strange to me that Musk could be spending so much time working on Starship, and somehow a "badly designed, badly built, and badly checked" rocket makes it to the platform and explodes.
Isn't weld strength something engineers would know/understand in advance, though? How would it come as a surprise that the welds would fail under pressure?
It seems strange to me that Musk could be spending so much time working on Starship, and somehow a "badly designed, badly built, and badly checked" rocket makes it to the platform and explodes.
Welding by hand is both an art and a science. There is going to be variability in the quality of the weld, which will introduce variability into the strength. Machines can be far more precise and consistent compared to humans.
They probably designed their tolerances assuming perfect welds and then didn't have them.
They probably designed their tolerances assuming perfect welds and then didn't have them.
>They probably designed their tolerances assuming perfect welds and then didn't have them.
This sounds like terrible engineering practice.
This sounds like terrible engineering practice.
It's perfectly normal engineering practice. Camshaft, gearbox profiles, and bearing surfaces in your car have very tight tolerances. A one slightly unbalanced turbine blade in your airliner engine would assure catastrophic failure. etc etc
Do you not see a difference between the intricate components of an engine and the welds on a tank as far as complexity?
Is it even possible to discuss anything Elon Musk anymore without 100% praise of his engineering prowess? Every single comment gets down-voted into oblivion, with very few replies. And, due to the "cool off", this prevents any balanced discourse.
Is it even possible to discuss anything Elon Musk anymore without 100% praise of his engineering prowess? Every single comment gets down-voted into oblivion, with very few replies. And, due to the "cool off", this prevents any balanced discourse.
Yes, but these items (camshaft, gearbox etc) are not made "by hand".
Camshafts were turned then ground manually on line lathes and surface grinders for many decades before advent of CNC, with about the same degree of dimensional precision as today.
It is more an issue of quality control and inspection routines.
It is more an issue of quality control and inspection routines.
Necessity is the mother of invention?
There are additional constraints not found in most welding projects. They can’t just make the material and weld thicker/heavier as that would impact the rocket performance.
So it has to be as thin and fragile as possible but no thinner. That makes it very hard to get right, and the welds have to be done to very fine tolerances on thin material, you could say it is rocket science.
So it has to be as thin and fragile as possible but no thinner. That makes it very hard to get right, and the welds have to be done to very fine tolerances on thin material, you could say it is rocket science.
>They can’t just make the material and weld thicker/heavier as that would impact the rocket performance.
I understand. But the stresses that materials and welds can withstand are not unknown variables. We're talking about a pressurized tank here. You aren't going to build a rocket (designed to carry people) that has tolerances so tight that it's touch and go whether it explodes as soon as it's pressurized.
I understand. But the stresses that materials and welds can withstand are not unknown variables. We're talking about a pressurized tank here. You aren't going to build a rocket (designed to carry people) that has tolerances so tight that it's touch and go whether it explodes as soon as it's pressurized.
They are currently not primarily working on the rocket, but in the production process.
> Can any engineer speak to whether this is actually progress, or even necessary?
No, they probably can't. It would be really weird for an outside engineer to have a better insight on this than the engineers from the actual rocket company.
No, they probably can't. It would be really weird for an outside engineer to have a better insight on this than the engineers from the actual rocket company.
Given that the USA is apparently forming a Spaceforce and the long history of astronomical products becoming military products I'm surprised that more companies aren't trying to "go to Mars". Elon can probably tell that a race to be the first to expand heavily into space is coming and that even if he can't sell people on Mars he can sell tourists and the military on the moon.
Maybe the garbage fire that the Internet has become today was a necessary step for informatics to develop enough to tackle ambitious projects like this. Maybe all the talent that focused on computer entertainment, trading, advertising and surveillance was worth it and we'll see a second renaissance.
I hope more entrepreneurs follow Elon's steps.
I hope more entrepreneurs follow Elon's steps.
Excerpt:
"Just iterate, baby"
"I’ve spoken with plenty of the earliest engineers who worked at SpaceX, and almost all of them have noted that Musk tackles the hardest engineering problems first. For Mars, there will be so many logistical things to make it all work, from power on the surface to scratching out a living to adapting to its extreme climate. But Musk believes that the initial, hardest step is building a reusable, orbital Starship to get people and tons of stuff to Mars. So he is focused on that.
He knows he won’t get Starship right at first. He employs some of the smartest engineers on this planet, and they’re still, in many ways, fumbling toward solutions for the extremely hard problem of getting a super-large vehicle out of Earth’s gravity well into orbit—then to land it and fly it again. Musk has come to believe the only way to realistically achieve this is through trial and error, by iterating closer and closer to the right design."
"Just iterate, baby"
"I’ve spoken with plenty of the earliest engineers who worked at SpaceX, and almost all of them have noted that Musk tackles the hardest engineering problems first. For Mars, there will be so many logistical things to make it all work, from power on the surface to scratching out a living to adapting to its extreme climate. But Musk believes that the initial, hardest step is building a reusable, orbital Starship to get people and tons of stuff to Mars. So he is focused on that.
He knows he won’t get Starship right at first. He employs some of the smartest engineers on this planet, and they’re still, in many ways, fumbling toward solutions for the extremely hard problem of getting a super-large vehicle out of Earth’s gravity well into orbit—then to land it and fly it again. Musk has come to believe the only way to realistically achieve this is through trial and error, by iterating closer and closer to the right design."
Iteration is what originally gave the Soviets the advantage in the space race.
I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots.
The best example being Korolev, possibly the greatest rocket designer in history (certainly up there with Von Braun and Xuesen, and in my opinion more impressive), who died because he was sent to the Gulags by a bitter politician (this is an incredibly short edit of the full story, but that is a factual statement).
Korolev built working rockets the US said were theoretically impossible, and he did it because he couldn't afford to build the rockets the way the US were doing it. So he got resourceful.
Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon.
The best example being Korolev, possibly the greatest rocket designer in history (certainly up there with Von Braun and Xuesen, and in my opinion more impressive), who died because he was sent to the Gulags by a bitter politician (this is an incredibly short edit of the full story, but that is a factual statement).
Korolev built working rockets the US said were theoretically impossible, and he did it because he couldn't afford to build the rockets the way the US were doing it. So he got resourceful.
Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon.
>> I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots.
I'm not familiar with that history, but I'm quite familiar with Corporate America. One thing I've seen is that when Engineering is great, it gives the company great momentum and allows the Management/"Business"/Strategy/etc functions to lag and get lazy. Good Engineering momentum essentially produces enough residual value for others to leech off from.
I'm not familiar with that history, but I'm quite familiar with Corporate America. One thing I've seen is that when Engineering is great, it gives the company great momentum and allows the Management/"Business"/Strategy/etc functions to lag and get lazy. Good Engineering momentum essentially produces enough residual value for others to leech off from.
Which may be an insight on how SpaceX/Tesla avoid some of those traditional business issues- the business is this case is a means to an engineering end, not a means to perpetuate the power/wealth/comfort of management.
[deleted]
This is a vague statement that is just as often untrue as it is true.
It's more of a stereotype to hate on "management" and is lazy thinking.
It's more of a stereotype to hate on "management" and is lazy thinking.
> that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots.
The engineers would have big problems if they spaceship doesn't work. The politicians are not idiots, its simply that they don't have the same goals as the engineers so the politicians seem like idiots to engineers.
> Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon.
This is an false take. Many people have looked at this and it simply doesn't hold up. The resources they were investing was not big enough and having korolev couldn't have solved all the many problems they would have still faced.
They had some great engine technology but its a long way from there to the moon.
The engineers would have big problems if they spaceship doesn't work. The politicians are not idiots, its simply that they don't have the same goals as the engineers so the politicians seem like idiots to engineers.
> Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon.
This is an false take. Many people have looked at this and it simply doesn't hold up. The resources they were investing was not big enough and having korolev couldn't have solved all the many problems they would have still faced.
They had some great engine technology but its a long way from there to the moon.
Stalin spent the latter half of his career killing all the talented politicians, whereas the engineers got left alone. Then the not-so-talented politicians that got left over (some of whom were not so bad) had to fight against a culture of fear, compulsive ass-covering, and magical thinking.
The only fucking idiot among top Soviet politicians was Gorbachev who sold one of the world's biggest economic, scientific and military powers just for 30 pieces of silver. His predecessors were no idiots at all. They are depicted as complete morons by the western propaganda - it's true. But propaganda and reality are two completely different things. I would advise you to learn history instead of blindly believing the yellow press and political articles on Wikipedia.
So the politician who sent the world's greatest rocket engineer to the gulags out of spite isn't an idiot?
I'd be happy to learn more if you can point me towards some sources.
I'd be happy to learn more if you can point me towards some sources.
First, by the time of his imprisonment he was not yet the world's greatest rocket engineer. He became one some 20 years after.
Quote from here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_...
> On 23 March 1938, Valentin Glushko was arrested. To reduce his charges he denounced Korolev, which resulted in his arrest on 7 June and a sentence of ten years forced labour. From that day on, the two men were bitterly opposed to each other.
So as you can see he was not sent to gulag out of spite by Stalin but out of envy and professional competition by his fellow rocket engineer.
While in gulag he was not tortured or sent to gold mines. He and other scientists continued their work in relatively comfortable conditions in so called "sharashka": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
I'm not saying that Stalin was a saint or a winged seraph. But definitely he was anyone but an idiot.
Also Korolev did not died because he was sent to the Gulags. He died from a chronic disease from which he started suffering long before he was imprisoned.
Quote from here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_...
> On 23 March 1938, Valentin Glushko was arrested. To reduce his charges he denounced Korolev, which resulted in his arrest on 7 June and a sentence of ten years forced labour. From that day on, the two men were bitterly opposed to each other.
So as you can see he was not sent to gulag out of spite by Stalin but out of envy and professional competition by his fellow rocket engineer.
While in gulag he was not tortured or sent to gold mines. He and other scientists continued their work in relatively comfortable conditions in so called "sharashka": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
I'm not saying that Stalin was a saint or a winged seraph. But definitely he was anyone but an idiot.
Also Korolev did not died because he was sent to the Gulags. He died from a chronic disease from which he started suffering long before he was imprisoned.
[deleted]
An engineer was imprisoned because another engineer was spiteful. You don't consider this a dumb political decision? I consider the default judgment of "everyone goes to the gulags" to be shitty governance, and also quite stupid.
My understanding is Korolev's health greatly declined because of his time while imprisoned, and had he never had to endure it he likely would have lived much longer.
My understanding is Korolev's health greatly declined because of his time while imprisoned, and had he never had to endure it he likely would have lived much longer.
I must point out that username ilyich is a transliterated name likely referring to Lenin – real name was Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov. So ilyich seems to be a fan of USSR.
That much is obvious. It doesn't mean I don't want to hear his perspective though.
I read Stephen Kotkin's excellent three part series on Stalin this summer and Kotkin (who is by no means a Soviet apologist; he's a conservative) thinks Stalin was a political genius, a modern Machiavelli. For example, in this interview [1] he explains how Stalin's administration was what he considers a "transcendental work of art" while also explaining how it was psychotic and evil.
I highly recommend Kotkin's books. You can jump into the second, Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 if you want to learn more about him as a leader.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4
I highly recommend Kotkin's books. You can jump into the second, Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 if you want to learn more about him as a leader.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4
Thank you! I appreciate it.
Gorbachev saw an totally undemocratic nation that had long flattened out in terms growth and innovation and wanted to make it democratic, he didn't realize that all these rich people in the society had more interest in keeping the system in their control and they had no interest in his vision.
> They are depicted as complete morons by the western propaganda - it's true. But propaganda and reality are two completely different things.
They were not idiots, but their intensives didn't align with the goals of the engineers.
> They are depicted as complete morons by the western propaganda - it's true. But propaganda and reality are two completely different things.
They were not idiots, but their intensives didn't align with the goals of the engineers.
It's well known that the Soviets advanced in the Space race because they neglected people's lives. Cosmonauts were launched in half-baked, hastily assembled spacecraft. It's a gruesome example of iteration.
The quote that explains why it's important to build one Starship a week:
> “A high production rate solves many ills,” he said. “If you have a high production rate, you have a high iteration rate. For pretty much any technology whatsoever, the progress is a function of how many iterations do you have, and how much progress do you make between each iteration. If you have a high production rate then you have many iterations. You can make progress from one to the next.”
> “A high production rate solves many ills,” he said. “If you have a high production rate, you have a high iteration rate. For pretty much any technology whatsoever, the progress is a function of how many iterations do you have, and how much progress do you make between each iteration. If you have a high production rate then you have many iterations. You can make progress from one to the next.”
> for the extremely hard problem of getting a super-large vehicle out of Earth’s gravity well into orbit
Why does it need to be super-large? To simulate gravity?
Why does it need to be super-large? To simulate gravity?
It turns out orbital launchers scale rather well with size.
The rocket is already 90+% propellant (fuel & oxydizer), with the few percent left being the engines, structure and payload. So if you want the rocket to have a meaningful payload, it needs to be big.
For example the Falcon 9 weights 350 tons and can place 22 tons to low earth orbit (LEO). So about 6% of initial launcher weight ends up in orbit.
If you want to place the 100+ tons estimated for a reasonable Mars trip, your launcher will be either huge or you will need to do a lot of launches and assemble your ship in orbit with all the overhed that requires.
Starship also aims to be fully reusable, which will eat to your payload yet again but provides a huge benefit of not throwing away any part of your rocket, just burning a lot of propellant, which is dirt cheap compared to rocket hardware (estimates say about 5% of conventional rocket launch is fuel, the less is hardware that you normally simply crash into the ocean after use).
So in short - big payload -> big rocket. Reusable rocket with big payload -> humungous rocket that is really really cheap to operate.
The rocket is already 90+% propellant (fuel & oxydizer), with the few percent left being the engines, structure and payload. So if you want the rocket to have a meaningful payload, it needs to be big.
For example the Falcon 9 weights 350 tons and can place 22 tons to low earth orbit (LEO). So about 6% of initial launcher weight ends up in orbit.
If you want to place the 100+ tons estimated for a reasonable Mars trip, your launcher will be either huge or you will need to do a lot of launches and assemble your ship in orbit with all the overhed that requires.
Starship also aims to be fully reusable, which will eat to your payload yet again but provides a huge benefit of not throwing away any part of your rocket, just burning a lot of propellant, which is dirt cheap compared to rocket hardware (estimates say about 5% of conventional rocket launch is fuel, the less is hardware that you normally simply crash into the ocean after use).
So in short - big payload -> big rocket. Reusable rocket with big payload -> humungous rocket that is really really cheap to operate.
Efficiencies of scale. Too small and you can't pack enough food for the trip or proper redundancies, still too small and you can't build the base fast enough, don't bring enough stuff on the trip and you need to make more trips..which are time limited due to the rendezvous. You end up inclined to 'as big as possible'
Basically to drive down the cost of payload mass as much as possible. First you have to build a lot of rocket to get anything up into space. If it only launches 1kg of payload, that's going to be a very expensive kilogram. As you continue to scale the rocket up, assuming you can design for a decent payload ratio, the amount of cargo capacity increases and the cost per kilogram drops.
People need to live in it. A 1 Kg probe can take some pictures, the tiny Apollo Lunar Module was 16,400Kg and only designed to support 2 people for 75 hours. Meanwhile Mars (3.72 m/s²) has significantly more gravity than the Moon (1.62 m/s²), making a trip back from the surface even more difficult.
Tonnage. If you're wanting to move 7/8 figure tonnage loads over a period of time, you're going to need a big trunk.
In space vehicles, that means everything gets really, really big.
In space vehicles, that means everything gets really, really big.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payload_fraction
Launch vehicles tend to scale payload capacity at a greater rate than dry mass. So a small launch vehicle like RocketLab's Electron might have a wet mass of 12,000kg at launch and an LEO payload capacity of 225kg (225/12000 ~ 1.8% payload), the SpaceX Falcon9 has a wet mass of 550,000kg and an LEO payload capacity of 22,800kg (22800/550000 ~ 4.1% payload).
This just tends to mean that, very generally and with exceptions, larger vehicles can get mass into space with less fuel.
Launch vehicles tend to scale payload capacity at a greater rate than dry mass. So a small launch vehicle like RocketLab's Electron might have a wet mass of 12,000kg at launch and an LEO payload capacity of 225kg (225/12000 ~ 1.8% payload), the SpaceX Falcon9 has a wet mass of 550,000kg and an LEO payload capacity of 22,800kg (22800/550000 ~ 4.1% payload).
This just tends to mean that, very generally and with exceptions, larger vehicles can get mass into space with less fuel.
A Falcon 9 has a LEO payload capacity of 22,800kg in expendable mode, something SpaceX does not like to do. The largest payload mass they've carried to LEO was Starlink-2 at approximately 15,600kg (60 satellites at 227 kg each).
>Why does it need to be super-large? To simulate gravity?
Rocket efficiency scales infinitely with size.
Rocket efficiency scales infinitely with size.
The rocket equation [0] disagrees: "In what has been called 'the tyranny of the rocket equation', there is a limit to the amount of payload that the rocket can carry, as higher amounts of propellant increment the overall weight, and thus also increase the fuel consumption"
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation
The pure, theoretical rocket equation still scales linearly, the tyranny lies in the hard limit of how much mass you can theoretically accelerate out of a gravity well per unit off fuel.
But bigger rockets can get closer to that theoretical optimum because some dead weight components remain fixed-size and because some masses scale with surface instead of volume. Rockets can scale better than linearly with size, but they will never exceed the rocket equation.
But bigger rockets can get closer to that theoretical optimum because some dead weight components remain fixed-size and because some masses scale with surface instead of volume. Rockets can scale better than linearly with size, but they will never exceed the rocket equation.
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I'm having a mental blockage on this, as you can always launch 10 rockets at the same time and get 10 times the payload. Having those 10 rockets strapped together should not change the payload of them flying independently.
What am I missing here -- I'm sure I'm overlooking something.
What am I missing here -- I'm sure I'm overlooking something.
If you strap 10 rockets together, you don't need to keep all 10 copies of some components. You don't need 10 computers, or ten emergency abort systems, or ten communications systems, etc. One large tank will have less mass/volume than 10 small ones, etc.
Interestingly there are couple rockets that are close to "strapping couple rockets together" for various reasons:
The R7 rocket
- mostly to avoid engine ignition in flight & due to having a lot of nozzles you need to fit on a rocket
- this was then kept for Soyuz even after an additional stage has been added that is started in flight
- Soyuz 2V uses a more efficient engine & uses only the central stage
The proton Rocket
- the central tank has the maximum diameter you can ship via rail from the factory to Baykonur
- by mounting smaller tanks around it that are shipped separately you can avoid building an overly long rocket, that could be fragile and unstable
Saturn 1/1B
- basically a stop gap using existing Jupiter and Redstone rocket tankage tooling
- strap 8 Redstone tanks around 1 Jupiter tank and you get the S-I first stage
Delta IV Heavy/Falcon Heavy
- you have a rocket that can launch by itself with smaller payload or by strapping 3 first stages together can launch a bigger payload
- better economies of scale as you can doe more with a single rocket design instead of maintaining 2 separate one (big and small)
- in Falcon Heavy case you can also save all the first stages from more demanding trajectories where you would otherwise have to expend the regular F9 first stage
OTRAG
- make dirt cheap and as simple as possible standardized "rocket tubes"
- strap a lot of them together
- fire and jettison in the right order to achieve orbit (check your staging! ;-) )
The R7 rocket
- mostly to avoid engine ignition in flight & due to having a lot of nozzles you need to fit on a rocket
- this was then kept for Soyuz even after an additional stage has been added that is started in flight
- Soyuz 2V uses a more efficient engine & uses only the central stage
The proton Rocket
- the central tank has the maximum diameter you can ship via rail from the factory to Baykonur
- by mounting smaller tanks around it that are shipped separately you can avoid building an overly long rocket, that could be fragile and unstable
Saturn 1/1B
- basically a stop gap using existing Jupiter and Redstone rocket tankage tooling
- strap 8 Redstone tanks around 1 Jupiter tank and you get the S-I first stage
Delta IV Heavy/Falcon Heavy
- you have a rocket that can launch by itself with smaller payload or by strapping 3 first stages together can launch a bigger payload
- better economies of scale as you can doe more with a single rocket design instead of maintaining 2 separate one (big and small)
- in Falcon Heavy case you can also save all the first stages from more demanding trajectories where you would otherwise have to expend the regular F9 first stage
OTRAG
- make dirt cheap and as simple as possible standardized "rocket tubes"
- strap a lot of them together
- fire and jettison in the right order to achieve orbit (check your staging! ;-) )
While this does work, the Falcon Heavy has convinced Elon not to go into that direction again. Its actually not that simple to strap these together and just making a bigger tank is actually easier.
Poorly for the current market using a FH makes sense, but to break to another level, building one big rocket is better. Both the US Saturn 5 and the Soviet N1 were big single tube vehicles.
Poorly for the current market using a FH makes sense, but to break to another level, building one big rocket is better. Both the US Saturn 5 and the Soviet N1 were big single tube vehicles.
Correct. You can (super¹)linearly increase launch mass by adding fuel. The rocket equation hits when you're trying to go farther, rather than more massive.
¹ Superlinear because tank mass scales with a lower exponent than tank volume.
¹ Superlinear because tank mass scales with a lower exponent than tank volume.
> tank mass scales with a lower exponent than tank volume
I'm confused here. How are they not both cubic?
I'm confused here. How are they not both cubic?
It's the mass of the empty tank that's relevant here, because non-propellant mass is what you want to minimize in order to increase deltaV.
Tank dry mass scales (approximately) with surface area.
You aren't missing anything, the comment you are responding to is confusing the per unit of fuel payload limit to be the total limit of the rocket. You can add more engines/ use bigger ones which would allow for more fuel and thus more payload( in theory at least).
Yes.
On the other hand, ten fuel tanks will mass more than a single fuel tank with ten times the volume.
On the other hand, ten fuel tanks will mass more than a single fuel tank with ten times the volume.
That's correct so far. Now think further: a single, larger rocket has the advantage of leaving away the tank walls that would be in the inside now. Less mass needed for the tank walls (the outer walls need to become stronger though), more available for payload, extra fuel and oxidizer or extra stuff like things needed for reusability.
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This makes total sense to me. If you can solve the hardest problems, it is reasonable to expect that you can solve the rest as well. If you fail at solving the hardest problems, the system will not work anyway.
The science, then, lies in identifying the hardest problems. The art lies in identifying people who can solve these problems.
The science, then, lies in identifying the hardest problems. The art lies in identifying people who can solve these problems.
addisonl(2)
Slightly off-topic but apart from Mars-related things, I don't think are appreciating how big of a deal Starship/Super Heavy will be.
Because space is hard and expensive, when designing payloads, they also have to be over-engineered to make sure you're getting the most out of your ride, which then makes the rockets over-engineered and expensive to make sure they don't blow up carrying the precious cargo. It's a positive feedback loop. So we end up with incredible telescopes like Hubble or James Webb, but it's literally a once-in-a-generation event. There's no tolerance for failure, so budgets and timelines ballon.
What if you knew you could get a cheap ride anywhere anytime? Why not mass-produce slightly lower quality telescopes instead of these masterpieces. The JWST's successor is LUVOIR, slated for sometime in the 2040s (!!), why not build a dozens JWST-like telescopes and use interferometry to build giant telescopes larger than the earth with higher light-gathering ability than even ground-based telescopes? This is the technique used by Event Horizon Telescope to capture the first picture of a black hole last year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-long-baseline_interferome...
Because space is hard and expensive, when designing payloads, they also have to be over-engineered to make sure you're getting the most out of your ride, which then makes the rockets over-engineered and expensive to make sure they don't blow up carrying the precious cargo. It's a positive feedback loop. So we end up with incredible telescopes like Hubble or James Webb, but it's literally a once-in-a-generation event. There's no tolerance for failure, so budgets and timelines ballon.
What if you knew you could get a cheap ride anywhere anytime? Why not mass-produce slightly lower quality telescopes instead of these masterpieces. The JWST's successor is LUVOIR, slated for sometime in the 2040s (!!), why not build a dozens JWST-like telescopes and use interferometry to build giant telescopes larger than the earth with higher light-gathering ability than even ground-based telescopes? This is the technique used by Event Horizon Telescope to capture the first picture of a black hole last year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-long-baseline_interferome...
> What if you knew you could get a cheap ride anywhere anytime?
That's exactly the premise of Starlink. SpaceX know they can launch those things 100x cheaper (1000x ?) than ever before in history, so they're churning them out and throwing them up. Even though the ones going up right now aren't "finished" it doesn't matter, because replacing them with new and better ones is so cheap.
That's exactly the premise of Starlink. SpaceX know they can launch those things 100x cheaper (1000x ?) than ever before in history, so they're churning them out and throwing them up. Even though the ones going up right now aren't "finished" it doesn't matter, because replacing them with new and better ones is so cheap.
400 Starlink satellites per Starship launch costing $2M is $5,000 per satellite per launch. Basically nothing compared to the eventual mass-produced cost to make each satellite which might be $100,000.
https://youtu.be/Exd1IO52exs?t=361
https://youtu.be/Exd1IO52exs?t=361
Musk recently said that they need to get Starship working because the launch cost on Falcon 9 is already exceeding the cost of the launched Starlink satellites. With a launch cost of approximately $30M and 60 satellites, they are already at $500k per satellite at most.
It's quite inspiring to see a real goal and drive towards it.
Purpose is so hard to come by now because we all don't know what we want. When we do know, we're constantly unsure about it.
Such a clear goal makes it easy to have greater purpose that you don't second guess.
This isn't a scheme to get rich, a zero sum political movement, or a narcissistic artistic endeavor. It's pretty unique there.
There's that whole danger of a cult of personality but the project is bearing fruit.
Purpose is so hard to come by now because we all don't know what we want. When we do know, we're constantly unsure about it.
Such a clear goal makes it easy to have greater purpose that you don't second guess.
This isn't a scheme to get rich, a zero sum political movement, or a narcissistic artistic endeavor. It's pretty unique there.
There's that whole danger of a cult of personality but the project is bearing fruit.
> Purpose is so hard to come by now because we all don't know what we want. When we do know, we're constantly unsure about it.
This statement resonates deeply with me.
Whenever I meet someone new or that I might be interested in dating I ask "What are you doing with your life?" or "What are you striving for?" and I find the extreme majority of people don't have an answer beyond "I just go to a job I don't really like"
It seems very few people are seriously driven and motivated and living a life where they're pushing hard to achieve something great.
This statement resonates deeply with me.
Whenever I meet someone new or that I might be interested in dating I ask "What are you doing with your life?" or "What are you striving for?" and I find the extreme majority of people don't have an answer beyond "I just go to a job I don't really like"
It seems very few people are seriously driven and motivated and living a life where they're pushing hard to achieve something great.
Why do they have to? I have that drive, but my wife is perfectly happy with a calm, comfortable, stress-free life. And in fact it helps to bring me back down to Earth sometimes also.
There's nothing wrong with wanting a life that free. In fact it's oftentimes admirable. Especially at times when I'm wound so tight I feel like I could pop.
If you're choosing a partner based solely on whether they want to be the next Elon Musk or not, you're doing yourself a serious disservice.
And if you really ask those questions to every potential date, you should stop, because dude, wtf?
There's nothing wrong with wanting a life that free. In fact it's oftentimes admirable. Especially at times when I'm wound so tight I feel like I could pop.
If you're choosing a partner based solely on whether they want to be the next Elon Musk or not, you're doing yourself a serious disservice.
And if you really ask those questions to every potential date, you should stop, because dude, wtf?
> Why do they have to?
Wow, I think you really misunderstood me. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything, I just said it's really inspiring to see people that are passionate, and are driven and motivated about something. And I want people like that in my life.
I'm not saying I want an Elon Musk for a partner, I'm saying it's inspiring, and I'm drawn to people that actually have a purpose and a reason to get out of bed, and they're striving for something. Maybe it's take a month off to ski tour around Mt. Logan this spring. Maybe it's sail around the Northwest passage, or maybe it's learning a new language. Maybe it's getting up early every day to do Yoga.
Anything, really.
I'm just saying I feel like a lot of people these days have nothing that they're striving for. They just go to work, and go home, and aren't even particularly happy about it. If you asked them what the point is they don't even have an answer. If you ask them what they will have achieved in 5 or 10 years, they have nothing. They're not even trying to do anything.
> Especially at times when I'm wound so tight I feel like I could pop.
It's a mistake to think that to be driven and passionate and motivated about something also means you have to be wound tightly. I've never spent time with anyone that is wound tightly, and I can't imagine how difficult that would be.
EDIT: Replying to your comment lower down - I absolutely DO NOT ever ask anyone what their plan to change the world is, and I never said anything like that above. I ask them what they're passionate about, and what they're striving towards. That doesn't have to be change the world.
Wow, I think you really misunderstood me. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything, I just said it's really inspiring to see people that are passionate, and are driven and motivated about something. And I want people like that in my life.
I'm not saying I want an Elon Musk for a partner, I'm saying it's inspiring, and I'm drawn to people that actually have a purpose and a reason to get out of bed, and they're striving for something. Maybe it's take a month off to ski tour around Mt. Logan this spring. Maybe it's sail around the Northwest passage, or maybe it's learning a new language. Maybe it's getting up early every day to do Yoga.
Anything, really.
I'm just saying I feel like a lot of people these days have nothing that they're striving for. They just go to work, and go home, and aren't even particularly happy about it. If you asked them what the point is they don't even have an answer. If you ask them what they will have achieved in 5 or 10 years, they have nothing. They're not even trying to do anything.
> Especially at times when I'm wound so tight I feel like I could pop.
It's a mistake to think that to be driven and passionate and motivated about something also means you have to be wound tightly. I've never spent time with anyone that is wound tightly, and I can't imagine how difficult that would be.
EDIT: Replying to your comment lower down - I absolutely DO NOT ever ask anyone what their plan to change the world is, and I never said anything like that above. I ask them what they're passionate about, and what they're striving towards. That doesn't have to be change the world.
> Why do they have to?
Not speaking about (or judging!) anyone individually, but because if none of us did, we'd still be living in caves. Or, more likely, be extinct.
The reason all of us are having this conversation now is because many people before us had purpose and built something
Not speaking about (or judging!) anyone individually, but because if none of us did, we'd still be living in caves. Or, more likely, be extinct.
The reason all of us are having this conversation now is because many people before us had purpose and built something
The question posed was why do they Have to? Not why Should they.
Of course we need people driven to move society forward. But there is a stigma in modern society it seems around people who are perfectly happy being who they are and not "striving to be great". And that's ridiculous.
The previous poster asks all his potential dates, with what seems to be a fairly heavy helping of disdain for the "wrong answer", what their plan to change the world is.
Why does it matter? You go change the world. Let your spouse or your friends or your colleagues be content with not changing the world and just be happy living in it.
Of course we need people driven to move society forward. But there is a stigma in modern society it seems around people who are perfectly happy being who they are and not "striving to be great". And that's ridiculous.
The previous poster asks all his potential dates, with what seems to be a fairly heavy helping of disdain for the "wrong answer", what their plan to change the world is.
Why does it matter? You go change the world. Let your spouse or your friends or your colleagues be content with not changing the world and just be happy living in it.
I'm not saying this is wrong or right, but perhaps some people feel everyone has a duty to do something meaningful to push society forward, otherwise they are essentially free-riding on everyone else's sacrifices.
And that something may very well be as broad a goal as "do your very best, everyday".
Sure, you can't force people to see the world through that same lens, but you can certainly pick partners based on traits which you admire, ambition / grit presumably being one of such traits.
And that something may very well be as broad a goal as "do your very best, everyday".
Sure, you can't force people to see the world through that same lens, but you can certainly pick partners based on traits which you admire, ambition / grit presumably being one of such traits.
Why are you dictating what other people should look for in a partner?
I'm not. I'm just judging him for doing so. Which is wrong. I shouldn't have phrased it like that. I guess that stigma in society around people who are perfectly happy being happy and don't feel the need to "be great" is sensitive to me because my wife constantly receives a lot of crap for it.
So you be you, previous poster. Just don't look down on others who don't want to change the world.
So you be you, previous poster. Just don't look down on others who don't want to change the world.
I think this is what inspires me about spacex/musk, too. I'm not convinced there's a rational, utilitarian justification for settling Mars. But is there anything wrong with doing it solely for the purpose of having a grand purpose in the face of infinite uncertainty and doubt?
It's definitely very difficult. I'm striving to learn a new language,improve at chess and olympic weightlifting but that's a much lower level of purpose than building spaceships to reach Mars. I hope that I can find something in my career that fuels a burning desire like some of the SpaceX employees
> I'm striving to learn a new language, improve at chess and olympic weightlifting
Not that my opinion matters, but I think those are fantastic goals to strive for. If it's making you happy to challenge yourself, go for it!
THAT is exactly the purpose I'm talking about vs. someone that doesn't try at anything and doesn't have any idea what they'd like to do, or achieve, or improve in the next 10 years.
> I hope that I can find something in my career that fuels a burning desire like some of the SpaceX employees
I've accepted I won't find that kind of career, so I to do it in my outside life (like you are!)
Not that my opinion matters, but I think those are fantastic goals to strive for. If it's making you happy to challenge yourself, go for it!
THAT is exactly the purpose I'm talking about vs. someone that doesn't try at anything and doesn't have any idea what they'd like to do, or achieve, or improve in the next 10 years.
> I hope that I can find something in my career that fuels a burning desire like some of the SpaceX employees
I've accepted I won't find that kind of career, so I to do it in my outside life (like you are!)
To live with such kind of drive implies sacrifices not everyone is ready to make. Being all-in also means that you'll miss on other aspects of life.
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> It's quite inspiring to see a real goal and drive towards it.
I'm throughly uninspired... As a friend of mine once said: "progress when you're going the wrong direction, is turning around".
The idea that we'll settle Mars while the Earth burns in borderline sinister. It reminds me of the elite outpost from Kingsman (the movie).
We have a planet that is in dire need of this kind of motivated action, and yet Elon would rather be distracted by this dream.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the "cool" factor of expanding to other planets. I too enjoy a good science fiction story. Who wouldn't want to escape the problems we've inherited, and proliferated.
But escapism solves nothing for "us", and it's foolish to think Mars is anything else. If we as humans can't live on Earth responsibly, we frankly don't deserve to exist at all.
(Perhaps we should pull a Titan A.E., and preserve some DNA in the vast wasteland of space. Just in case an alien species decides to give us another go)
I'm throughly uninspired... As a friend of mine once said: "progress when you're going the wrong direction, is turning around".
The idea that we'll settle Mars while the Earth burns in borderline sinister. It reminds me of the elite outpost from Kingsman (the movie).
We have a planet that is in dire need of this kind of motivated action, and yet Elon would rather be distracted by this dream.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the "cool" factor of expanding to other planets. I too enjoy a good science fiction story. Who wouldn't want to escape the problems we've inherited, and proliferated.
But escapism solves nothing for "us", and it's foolish to think Mars is anything else. If we as humans can't live on Earth responsibly, we frankly don't deserve to exist at all.
(Perhaps we should pull a Titan A.E., and preserve some DNA in the vast wasteland of space. Just in case an alien species decides to give us another go)
> We have a planet that is in dire need of this kind of motivated action, and yet Elon would rather be distracted by this dream.
What? You see a motivated person with the resources and drive to pursue his dream and you're upset that he's not putting his vision aside to pursue what you think is important? Musk doesn't owe you anything.
What? You see a motivated person with the resources and drive to pursue his dream and you're upset that he's not putting his vision aside to pursue what you think is important? Musk doesn't owe you anything.
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The person who is doing this is also very concerned with the state of affairs on Earth.
He owns SolarCity, a solar panel company, Tesla, an electric car and battery company, and Boring Company, an attempt at creating a transportation system that mandates the use of EV.
The fact that all of this technology will benefit human existence on Mars should go ahead and show you how developing technology in order to survive a situation far more dire than Earth's, in a sustainable way, might also help us better survive our situation on Earth.
He owns SolarCity, a solar panel company, Tesla, an electric car and battery company, and Boring Company, an attempt at creating a transportation system that mandates the use of EV.
The fact that all of this technology will benefit human existence on Mars should go ahead and show you how developing technology in order to survive a situation far more dire than Earth's, in a sustainable way, might also help us better survive our situation on Earth.
That's a fair point, and I'm not trying to say everything Elon is doing is bad or wrong. I wish his other projects got even a fraction of the attention his space project gets.
Tesla?
Ok fair... it's not about attention of other projects, and I shouldn't have said that.
I'm just reacting strongly to this Mars madness. That is all.
Defending this project by saying its leader is also compassionate toward other goals isn't compelling to me.
I'm just reacting strongly to this Mars madness. That is all.
Defending this project by saying its leader is also compassionate toward other goals isn't compelling to me.
Why are you reacting strongly to the topic of Mars or maybe Musk in general? Fixing Earth and going to Mars are not mutually exclusive and beside that there are a lot of billionaires doing far less useful things for humanity. Complaining that they could do something more useful would be more understandable, imo.
That line of thinking is next to insane. You should be happy he is not somewhere on the yaht drinking $20K whine every night.
That can be said about anything - why do you buy board games or watch sport events every night or learn to play piano - you should be saving the planet ffs...
That can be said about anything - why do you buy board games or watch sport events every night or learn to play piano - you should be saving the planet ffs...
I do worry about the mass lack of action due to social distractions...
But this is larger, as it seems to imply an escape from the problems of the Earth in a new world. A dream that will never become a reality.
Either we fix the Earth or we parish. There is no salvation in the stars, and no second coming of Christ.
But this is larger, as it seems to imply an escape from the problems of the Earth in a new world. A dream that will never become a reality.
Either we fix the Earth or we parish. There is no salvation in the stars, and no second coming of Christ.
The technology developed for Mars will improve life on Earth, in ways we can't even imagine.
Human effort isn't completely fungible. There is no guarantee that all of the people working incredibly hard at SpaceX would switch to work on whatever problem you want them to.
Human effort isn't completely fungible. There is no guarantee that all of the people working incredibly hard at SpaceX would switch to work on whatever problem you want them to.
It's sad that you frame this as "whatever problem you want them to work on". As is there should be any doubt.
It's sad that you think your priorities should be everyones' priorities. Find like-minded people and get to work. But what people get inspired of is none of your business to judge.
I feel perfectly entitled to judge those who spend their days dreaming of Mars as a solution to their problems.
I will not support such efforts, and I feel quite comfortable being a detractor as well.
Who are you to tell me what to judge?! This argument gets you nowhere with me.
I will not support such efforts, and I feel quite comfortable being a detractor as well.
Who are you to tell me what to judge?! This argument gets you nowhere with me.
They aren't dreaming of Mars as a solution to their problems.
They dream of Mars as it is exciting and will lead to new knowledge, understanding, and meaning.
They dream of Mars as it is exciting and will lead to new knowledge, understanding, and meaning.
>If we as humans can't live on Earth responsibly, we frankly don't deserve to exist at all.
We did for a long time though, except for relatively recently. And Mars won't be able to live without Earth for a long time so it isn't really escapism as you paint it.
I don't think we deserve to disappear completely, but if we don't reverse climate change, we'll have a ton of loss of life but not likely total extinction except for some astronauts. That's probably "enough" as far as galactic justice goes. I'm always a little disappointed in this argument though because it's climate change that we should be judged by, rather than massive deaths from human made conflicts throughout history. Surely there's lots of previous events that qualify for "we don't deserve to exist at all".
Do we need another eccentric billionaire but for climate change though? Sure, bring it on.
We did for a long time though, except for relatively recently. And Mars won't be able to live without Earth for a long time so it isn't really escapism as you paint it.
I don't think we deserve to disappear completely, but if we don't reverse climate change, we'll have a ton of loss of life but not likely total extinction except for some astronauts. That's probably "enough" as far as galactic justice goes. I'm always a little disappointed in this argument though because it's climate change that we should be judged by, rather than massive deaths from human made conflicts throughout history. Surely there's lots of previous events that qualify for "we don't deserve to exist at all".
Do we need another eccentric billionaire but for climate change though? Sure, bring it on.
Instead of being fatalistic and bemoaning the problem, you'll find yourself in a better mental space if you just apply yourself to solving it. Yes, you will only start with small steps, and yes, that will be a great risk, but in the end it the only chance we have of making things work.
I do not follow your argument, and I don't appreciate your appeal to my mental state.
I'm making a dramatic argument against large scale efforts to inhabit other planets, while ours is in a dire state.
I'm making a dramatic argument against large scale efforts to inhabit other planets, while ours is in a dire state.
Fixing climate change is a political problem first of all. A very different set of talents is needed here.
You'll have to convince or force people to change their priorities. First is probably not possible, due to the slow moving nature of the threat, second has its own drawbacks as well.
You'll have to convince or force people to change their priorities. First is probably not possible, due to the slow moving nature of the threat, second has its own drawbacks as well.
> As a friend of mine once said: "progress when you're going the wrong direction, is turning around".
I disagree strongly.
Progress in the wrong direction still teaches you things, and it means you're moving and you've overcome the inertia of doing nothing, which is half the battle.
Failure isn't trying and not reaching your goal. Failure is never trying.
I disagree strongly.
Progress in the wrong direction still teaches you things, and it means you're moving and you've overcome the inertia of doing nothing, which is half the battle.
Failure isn't trying and not reaching your goal. Failure is never trying.
By that definition, Hitler was pretty successful.
Yes, learn from your mistakes. No, don't actively go in the wrong direction.
Yes, learn from your mistakes. No, don't actively go in the wrong direction.
Well, yes, Hitler was pretty successful at what he was trying to do.
Now you're talking about if you need to consider any moral implications of the activity you're undertaking, which is a whole different discussion.
Now you're talking about if you need to consider any moral implications of the activity you're undertaking, which is a whole different discussion.
No, my entire point is about morals!
The discussion started out as "is it better to do something, or do nothing at all", which is outside of morals, but more about motivation and actually doing something.
Obviously if it's a horrible moral choice (i.e. Hitler) then sure, it's best if nothing is done.
In the very vast majority of cases ( build a better car, spaceship, software, grow better food, get fitter, learn a new language, help our community, be a better friend, etc. etc.), then doing something is much, much preferable to not even trying.
Obviously if it's a horrible moral choice (i.e. Hitler) then sure, it's best if nothing is done.
In the very vast majority of cases ( build a better car, spaceship, software, grow better food, get fitter, learn a new language, help our community, be a better friend, etc. etc.), then doing something is much, much preferable to not even trying.
The topic of better vs worse, or good vs evil is the very basis of morality.
"Morality (noun): principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior."
I encourage you to think more deeply about your argument. I struggle to agree that the "very vast majority of cases" are positive.
It sounds to me like you are sensitive to apathy and/or nihilism. I can understand that, especially these days, but just because it feels like nothing is being done doesn't mean things can't get worse.
Sorry, I'm a bit of a cynic these days.
"Morality (noun): principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior."
I encourage you to think more deeply about your argument. I struggle to agree that the "very vast majority of cases" are positive.
It sounds to me like you are sensitive to apathy and/or nihilism. I can understand that, especially these days, but just because it feels like nothing is being done doesn't mean things can't get worse.
Sorry, I'm a bit of a cynic these days.
sigh...
there are plenty of reasons humanity should be multi-planetary other than escaping climate change.
there are plenty of reasons humanity should be multi-planetary other than escaping climate change.
Feel free to elaborate.
I suspect any reasons you'll come up with are all still less urgent than the needs of our Earth.
I've heard the argument about learning to control the climate through taraforming (or whatever you want to call it), but I'm completely unconvinced that is an efficient method.
I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise, but I'm very skeptical.
I suspect any reasons you'll come up with are all still less urgent than the needs of our Earth.
I've heard the argument about learning to control the climate through taraforming (or whatever you want to call it), but I'm completely unconvinced that is an efficient method.
I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise, but I'm very skeptical.
Once even a minuscule fraction of the resources of the Solar System become available you can solve all terrestrial problems once and for all.
Space & Solar System is big and has a lot of resources, much much more than what is available in on a terrestrial planet.
Space & Solar System is big and has a lot of resources, much much more than what is available in on a terrestrial planet.
[deleted]
There are multiple catastrophic events that could end civilized human life on Earth that we have 0 control over.
Asteroids, supervolcanoes etc.
Asteroids, supervolcanoes etc.
This is a spectacular gamble, however Musk has a track record and I think Superheavy/Starship will pay off with unpredictable dividends.
But the elephant in the room that Musk appears to be ignoring is the life sciences side of things. Only 12 humans have sortied outside the Van Allen belts (which protect us from the deep space radiation environment). Nobody has spent more than 18 consecutive months in space or reduced gravity, and we know there are biological changes that affect astronauts. The same goes triple for the plants and bacteria and fungi (never mind animals) we depend on for agriculture, and a closed-loop agricultural system and air plant is implicit in Musk's goal of a self-sufficient colony on Mars. We haven't even repeated the (failed) Biosphere 2 experiment.
We need the giant payload capacity before we can test the life sciences problems in a realistic manner (small and ferociously expensive lab experiments on the ISS are useful but fail Musk's iteration test because the lead time for running one is measured in years if not decades).
So we won't know if a Mars colony is even possible until some time after Musk builds the ships to put one there.
But the elephant in the room that Musk appears to be ignoring is the life sciences side of things. Only 12 humans have sortied outside the Van Allen belts (which protect us from the deep space radiation environment). Nobody has spent more than 18 consecutive months in space or reduced gravity, and we know there are biological changes that affect astronauts. The same goes triple for the plants and bacteria and fungi (never mind animals) we depend on for agriculture, and a closed-loop agricultural system and air plant is implicit in Musk's goal of a self-sufficient colony on Mars. We haven't even repeated the (failed) Biosphere 2 experiment.
We need the giant payload capacity before we can test the life sciences problems in a realistic manner (small and ferociously expensive lab experiments on the ISS are useful but fail Musk's iteration test because the lead time for running one is measured in years if not decades).
So we won't know if a Mars colony is even possible until some time after Musk builds the ships to put one there.
Then we'll merely go to the Moon. :-) (And LEO and the Lagrange points.)
You raise a good point IMO in re: viability of space. In the limit it may turn out that humans can't live anywhere but on or near the surface of Earth. What is certain is that living in space will suck for many years, or likely decades. It will be like living in a mine, but there are more things that can kill you and you're much much further from fresh air and safe ground. And I suspect living on Mars would suck anyway just due to the ~0.4G surface gravity. At least on the Moon you can go home (in a few days rather than lots of months) or fly like a bird under your own power if your cave is big enough. ("The Menace from Earth", Heinlein; "Welcome to Moonbase", Bova)
But even if we can't live there it's still really useful and important to go: micro-gravity manufacturing; robotic asteroid mining; science...
I hope we can live in space, I want to colonize the galaxy. (The green galaxy on the cover of "The Millennial Project" book is one of the more compelling images I've personally ever seen. A photosynthesizing galaxy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millennial_Project:_Coloni... )
But even if we can't go at all these rockets are really important!
You raise a good point IMO in re: viability of space. In the limit it may turn out that humans can't live anywhere but on or near the surface of Earth. What is certain is that living in space will suck for many years, or likely decades. It will be like living in a mine, but there are more things that can kill you and you're much much further from fresh air and safe ground. And I suspect living on Mars would suck anyway just due to the ~0.4G surface gravity. At least on the Moon you can go home (in a few days rather than lots of months) or fly like a bird under your own power if your cave is big enough. ("The Menace from Earth", Heinlein; "Welcome to Moonbase", Bova)
But even if we can't live there it's still really useful and important to go: micro-gravity manufacturing; robotic asteroid mining; science...
I hope we can live in space, I want to colonize the galaxy. (The green galaxy on the cover of "The Millennial Project" book is one of the more compelling images I've personally ever seen. A photosynthesizing galaxy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millennial_Project:_Coloni... )
But even if we can't go at all these rockets are really important!
This is why I like to draw a distinction between space exploration and space colonization. The former is definitely within the realm of possibility, using existing technology (never mind the Superheavy/Starship system).
But Musk, with his talk of a self-sufficient city, is clearly targeting the latter, and there are a whole lot of details we haven't worked out.
But Musk, with his talk of a self-sufficient city, is clearly targeting the latter, and there are a whole lot of details we haven't worked out.
It's one of those things, robots are much less romantic than astronauts, but they make so much more sense it's not even a contest.
I wonder how starry-eyed Elon Musk really is in re: Mars colonization? I know for myself that it was hard to admit robots make more sense (at least at first).
I wonder how starry-eyed Elon Musk really is in re: Mars colonization? I know for myself that it was hard to admit robots make more sense (at least at first).
One interesting idea I heard: Send starships in pairs. When in interplanetary coast attach each at the nose with a long (300+m) tether. Use RCS to start a spin. You can then simulate 1G the entire way.
What are you building the starships out of that they can withstand those forces continuously over multiple years?
wouldn't 1g of force be the same as they'd be subject to sitting on earth?
Starships sitting on Earth are under compression. Starships hanging from one another's nose via a tether are presumably under tension, unless the tether is somehow anchored to the engine support structure at the base of each vehicle. So some non-trivial structural modifications would be required.
I'm not sure how big of a gamble that is. If he gets Starship into orbit he can start getting serious revenue from Starlink. Then he needs to transfer fuel in orbit to send cargo to the moon and mars. At that point he can send people and the return trip after two years will basically be free because some Starships will be returning to Earth anyway. I'm pretty sure he can get enough guinea pigs to commit to a 2-year trip. Then you iterate on the next batch of guinea pigs. Maybe he sends retirees who don't have that much life expectancy anyways.
Like every other discovery on earth, the first set of explorers will have to risk life and limb, make sacrifices to get there.
The one's that follow will build several stops along the way. You will be able to stop, stay for a while, and move forward towards your journey.
Also Asteroid mining is going to be a thing. So economy, space labs and all.
The one's that follow will build several stops along the way. You will be able to stop, stay for a while, and move forward towards your journey.
Also Asteroid mining is going to be a thing. So economy, space labs and all.
What about the sci-fi ships that rotate very quickly and use the momentum as a form of false gravity - iirc, the basic physics seems legit (I recall an Einstein thought experiment along those lines). Or: use the acceleration/deceleration to create gravity. Are they impractical to build or power?
Are you thinking of an O'Neill colony?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
> The O'Neill cylinder (also called an O'Neill colony) is a space settlement concept proposed by American physicist Gerard K. O'Neill in his 1976 book "The High Frontier: Human Colonies in Space". O'Neill proposed the colonization of space for the 21st century, using materials extracted from the Moon and later from asteroids.
> An O'Neill cylinder would consist of two counter-rotating cylinders. The cylinders would rotate in opposite directions in order to cancel out any gyroscopic effects that would otherwise make it difficult to keep them aimed toward the Sun. Each would be 5 miles (8.0 km) in diameter and 20 miles (32 km) long, connected at each end by a rod via a bearing system. They would rotate so as to provide artificial gravity via centrifugal force on their inner surfaces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
> The O'Neill cylinder (also called an O'Neill colony) is a space settlement concept proposed by American physicist Gerard K. O'Neill in his 1976 book "The High Frontier: Human Colonies in Space". O'Neill proposed the colonization of space for the 21st century, using materials extracted from the Moon and later from asteroids.
> An O'Neill cylinder would consist of two counter-rotating cylinders. The cylinders would rotate in opposite directions in order to cancel out any gyroscopic effects that would otherwise make it difficult to keep them aimed toward the Sun. Each would be 5 miles (8.0 km) in diameter and 20 miles (32 km) long, connected at each end by a rod via a bearing system. They would rotate so as to provide artificial gravity via centrifugal force on their inner surfaces.
O'Neill's colony design is flawed (and needs updating): in particular they had huge glassed-in window areas to admit sunlight (focussed via reflectors) for agriculture: he didn't account for differential heating-induced expansion/shrinkage.
On the other hand, he didn't have modern CAD back in the early 1970s. So in principle we can come up with something better.
The biggest problem is exposure to cosmic radiation -- L5 is way outside the Van Allen belts and high energy cosmic rays take roughly a metre of water to attenuate, or magnetic fields of 10-20 Tesla strength around the spacecraft. Which is a lot of mass (or a ridiculously strong magnetic field).
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_threat_from_cosmic_rays
On the other hand, he didn't have modern CAD back in the early 1970s. So in principle we can come up with something better.
The biggest problem is exposure to cosmic radiation -- L5 is way outside the Van Allen belts and high energy cosmic rays take roughly a metre of water to attenuate, or magnetic fields of 10-20 Tesla strength around the spacecraft. Which is a lot of mass (or a ridiculously strong magnetic field).
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_threat_from_cosmic_rays
Oh hey Charlie Stross! I'm a bit of a fan.
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I have a vague idea that a kind of spittle bug foam design made from bubbles of various diameters nested to provide redundancy might work well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spittle_bug#Spittlebug_nymphs
It's could be simple, flexible, easy to construct or modify, and resilient to impacts. I'm not an engineer or scientist though.
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A tangent, if I may...
I think we need more near-term hard sci-fi set in the future that e.g. Musk's space trucks are about to enable, to get more people excited and involved.
I've been trawling through Netflix and cable recently looking for inspiring, even-slightly-realistic sci-fi and it's a barren desert out there. There are a handful of shows that aren't bad, and I've heard good things about "Black Mirror". One the other hand, I watched a clip of "Star Trek: Discovery" the other day and had a minor apoplexy. It's more like a cartoon than the actual cartoon.
In contrast, I have a "100 Sci-Fi Movies" DVD set that my sister got me for Christmas one year, and a lot of the older black & white sci-fi movies are practically documentaries for space exploration and colonization. Sure there are silly aliens and such, but the technology and settings are realistic (at least compared to e.g. Star Trek or Star Wars.)
I think some concrete visions of what it might actually be like to attempt to build and live on a moonbase or Mars colony would inspire people to want to really do it.
- - - -
I have a vague idea that a kind of spittle bug foam design made from bubbles of various diameters nested to provide redundancy might work well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spittle_bug#Spittlebug_nymphs
It's could be simple, flexible, easy to construct or modify, and resilient to impacts. I'm not an engineer or scientist though.
- - - -
A tangent, if I may...
I think we need more near-term hard sci-fi set in the future that e.g. Musk's space trucks are about to enable, to get more people excited and involved.
I've been trawling through Netflix and cable recently looking for inspiring, even-slightly-realistic sci-fi and it's a barren desert out there. There are a handful of shows that aren't bad, and I've heard good things about "Black Mirror". One the other hand, I watched a clip of "Star Trek: Discovery" the other day and had a minor apoplexy. It's more like a cartoon than the actual cartoon.
In contrast, I have a "100 Sci-Fi Movies" DVD set that my sister got me for Christmas one year, and a lot of the older black & white sci-fi movies are practically documentaries for space exploration and colonization. Sure there are silly aliens and such, but the technology and settings are realistic (at least compared to e.g. Star Trek or Star Wars.)
I think some concrete visions of what it might actually be like to attempt to build and live on a moonbase or Mars colony would inspire people to want to really do it.
Have you watched or read The Expanse?
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Well, for context, it seems, that he know, that the whole thing is not so easy ...
"“I’ll probably be long dead before Mars becomes self-sustaining, but I’d like to at least be around to see a bunch of ships land on Mars,” Musk said."
"“I’ll probably be long dead before Mars becomes self-sustaining, but I’d like to at least be around to see a bunch of ships land on Mars,” Musk said."
Is it me, or does this article basically romanticize abusing workers and glorifies running projects without a plan, just with a goal?
I assume that an "all-hands" meeting at 1AM means an all-hands for everybody working the night shift, not the entire staff. Yes, shift work sucks, but that doesn't necessarily mean overwork.
Shift work also correlates with elevated levels of various diseases and cancers.
I don't think it's abusing workers if it's perfectly clear to everyone before they get on board what they're signing up for. I think most people applying for those jobs are dying (figuratively) to get in on it because it's such a unique opportunity to work on something big, hightech and exciting.
Absolutely, but I do think the people joining know what they are signing up for.
AFAIK they work in shifts, non-stop; crazy hours & weekend is irrelevant in this context.
This part of the article is about shifts for assembly workers:
So Musk is making the machine to make the machine. Musk has brought lessons learned from Tesla’s assembly line so workers do not burn out. They will work three 12-hour days and then have a four-day weekend. Then they’ll work four 12-hour shifts with a three-day weekend. Thus, with four shifts, the Boca Chica site can operate at full capacity 24 hours a day, seven days a week. SpaceX is throwing in hot meals every three to four hours, for free.
So Musk is making the machine to make the machine. Musk has brought lessons learned from Tesla’s assembly line so workers do not burn out. They will work three 12-hour days and then have a four-day weekend. Then they’ll work four 12-hour shifts with a three-day weekend. Thus, with four shifts, the Boca Chica site can operate at full capacity 24 hours a day, seven days a week. SpaceX is throwing in hot meals every three to four hours, for free.
Or he doesn't care about burnout. Because of the branding of how cool space is, and robotic missions that actually advance the science not being as sexy, he has a fresh supply of excited people (rant about the science vs the sensation). Knowing former SpaceX employees informs that.
I think that schedule actually sounds pretty great. I mean, it wouldn't work in my life now because I have kids and a dog and whatnot, but in my 20s? I'd have done 36-72-72-36 in a heartbeat. Imagine always looking forward to a three or four day weekend!
I'm happy with my 9-to-5 schedule now -- I can stop work at a specific time, and mostly stop worrying. Mostly. But it's not the same kind of freedom as knowing that the weekend has started, and that there is a multi-day period where you can start forgetting about that whole world (barring emergencies, of course).
Rotating between three and FOUR-day weekends? Wow.
Rotating between three and FOUR-day weekends? Wow.
If you want to change history, you'll put up with a brutal working schedule.
If you want a cushy 9-5 job, just apply to the nice big corporation down the street. At the end of the day, you just go home and enjoy your comfy bunny slippers.
If you want a cushy 9-5 job, just apply to the nice big corporation down the street. At the end of the day, you just go home and enjoy your comfy bunny slippers.
This sounds suspiciously identical to a tweet Elon posted last year that went 'viral', including the bit about how people working 9-5 (like that even exists at most corps today) as somehow being 'weak'.
> suspiciously
lol, you've found the nefarious element!
(It could be that I'm actually quoting from memory but, if so, it's not conscious.)
lol, you've found the nefarious element!
(It could be that I'm actually quoting from memory but, if so, it's not conscious.)
If you want to change history for the better you will do the better for the people now. Putting up with brutal working schedule reminds me of the coal mines of England on industrial revolution, no coal mine owner or worker from that time comes to my mind now.
Fine. It's bunny slippers, then.
Changing a world is a marathon, not a sprint.
I've noticed in my life, over the last 20 years, a strong correlation between companies being successful, which means, making money so they can keep paying their employees, and concerns with those companies making their employees work too hard or for too little.
Maybe this problem can be solved, by changing the system, but unless you are in a situation where you can avoid competition, until the system is changed companies may have to do some degree of hard work to survive.
Maybe this problem can be solved, by changing the system, but unless you are in a situation where you can avoid competition, until the system is changed companies may have to do some degree of hard work to survive.
You require a significant amount of equity and board seats assigned to employees or their representatives, so they share in the gains and have control over the direction of the org.
That just means that the employees are more likely to be well taken care of. This intuitively would suggest the company is more likely to be successful, but i think GP's observation is that the opposite might be what we actually see in practice. At least right now.
The model I suggest is used in Germany, and works well for both the business and the workers. On a smaller scale, Costco implements something similar in the US with positive results (Customers and employees before shareholders, but shareholders still profit).
I'd rather have something like a engineering corps that could keep engineers employees during recessions when the private sector can't afford it. Almost like and engineering reserve. I'd rather have the stability than more profit.
I agree! The US did this as part of the New Deal [1], it was called the Works Progress Administration (WPA) [2], making the federal government the largest employer at the time. You'd want to integrate that with employee unions; during good times, businesses work with unions to source labor. During hard times, the government steps in as the employer of last resort, using cheap nation state debt issuance to fund infrastructure projects to fill in private investment gaps. You of course then have to pay back that debt with taxes when the economy is booming again.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Summary_of_First_and_...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Summary_of_First_and_...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
Most Great Man narratives do.
This article from October 2019 also does a great job explaining the enormity of vision.
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/29/the-spacex-sta...
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/29/the-spacex-sta...
Why Mars, specifically?
Why not "settle" Antarctica or Marianna's trench? Aren't these orders of magnitude easier?
Marianna's is probably way tougher than Mars to be honest.
The overarching goal is to have a "backup" of humanity so to speak. Having some of society living on Mars so that if something were to happen to Earth, humanity wouldn't cease to exist. Settling Antarctica doesn't solve that problem.
I'm a huge Musk fan and would love to see us settle mars.
But. Really. What's the threat model here?
Mars is meant to be a backup of humanity. OK. Against what threat? We can think of many, but a self-isolating base in the Antarctic would survive nearly all of them with better conditions than a Mars base.
Nuclear armageddon? Not much fallout over Antarctica and OK, you can't go outside of a while. Still better than Mars where you can't go outside ever.
Runaway global warming? The ice will melt but at a slow pace that leaves plenty of time for adaptation, the climate will become more hospitable at the poles rather than less, and at least you will have lots of fresh water. Unlike, say, on Mars.
Global pandemic? An Antarctic base can self isolate, no problem. Just lock the doors and let anyone who tries to reach you freeze to death. A serious Mars base would need some sort of border control policy too, if Musk had made it cheap to get there.
Massive asteroid strike? I guess it'd wreck the atmosphere but ... well, then you're no worse off than on Mars which doesn't have one to begin with. And you're much more likely to get nuked by a 'roid on Mars where there's no atmosphere to burn it up.
I dunno man. I'm trying to think of a problem that a serious Antarctic city couldn't solve and coming up blank. Short of Earth getting sucked into a black hole or something, what scenario is survivable on Mars that isn't at the poles?
But. Really. What's the threat model here?
Mars is meant to be a backup of humanity. OK. Against what threat? We can think of many, but a self-isolating base in the Antarctic would survive nearly all of them with better conditions than a Mars base.
Nuclear armageddon? Not much fallout over Antarctica and OK, you can't go outside of a while. Still better than Mars where you can't go outside ever.
Runaway global warming? The ice will melt but at a slow pace that leaves plenty of time for adaptation, the climate will become more hospitable at the poles rather than less, and at least you will have lots of fresh water. Unlike, say, on Mars.
Global pandemic? An Antarctic base can self isolate, no problem. Just lock the doors and let anyone who tries to reach you freeze to death. A serious Mars base would need some sort of border control policy too, if Musk had made it cheap to get there.
Massive asteroid strike? I guess it'd wreck the atmosphere but ... well, then you're no worse off than on Mars which doesn't have one to begin with. And you're much more likely to get nuked by a 'roid on Mars where there's no atmosphere to burn it up.
I dunno man. I'm trying to think of a problem that a serious Antarctic city couldn't solve and coming up blank. Short of Earth getting sucked into a black hole or something, what scenario is survivable on Mars that isn't at the poles?
Antarctic city is good. I like underwater cities personally.
A decent depth of water is very good protection against an awful lot of stuff, including almost anything Mars would be good for, and if you still love space, any technology we build to live deep in the ocean can probably be reused on Europa.
It's also, to bring it back to the 'iteration' discussion way way easier to iterate building underwater cities than building habitats on Mars.
A decent depth of water is very good protection against an awful lot of stuff, including almost anything Mars would be good for, and if you still love space, any technology we build to live deep in the ocean can probably be reused on Europa.
It's also, to bring it back to the 'iteration' discussion way way easier to iterate building underwater cities than building habitats on Mars.
Yeah, exactly. Problem is 'underwater base' is probably too easy to build. Within a few years you'd be asking people to actually live there and then ... well good luck motivating employees with that vision!
> Against what threat? We can think of many ...
The ones we don't even conceive off, or if we do, don't protect against at all.
The ones we don't even conceive off, or if we do, don't protect against at all.
About the only thing that'd make it harder to survive on Earth than on Mars is a planetoid-sized impactor. For anything else a few hardened, isolated bunkers would be a hell of a lot cheaper than colonizing Mars, at least as effective at improving human survivability, and we could start building them today.
Of course I'm rooting for the Martian stuff because it's cool and may be accidentally useful (SpaceX already has been, really) and beats the fuck out of finding new ways to sell crap to people and the other garbage lots of other prominent companies do, but the goal isn't valuable per se, in my opinion.
Of course I'm rooting for the Martian stuff because it's cool and may be accidentally useful (SpaceX already has been, really) and beats the fuck out of finding new ways to sell crap to people and the other garbage lots of other prominent companies do, but the goal isn't valuable per se, in my opinion.
It's unfathomable to me how you're missing the fact that we're literally talking about different planets, and why that is the crucial difference.
Now, now, the fact that the sky is full of great big fucking rocks that occasionally fall out of it and hit the Earth has only been known for about two hundred years
It takes time for these things to sink in (apparently, despite e.g. the Chelyabinsk meteor, and all the craters, and how all the dinosaurs have wings now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_meteor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_impact_craters_on_Eart... )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoroid#History
> Although meteors have been known since ancient times, they were not known to be an astronomical phenomenon until early in the nineteenth century. Prior to that, they were seen in the West as an atmospheric phenomenon, like lightning, and were not connected with strange stories of rocks falling from the sky. In 1807, Yale University chemistry professor Benjamin Silliman investigated a meteorite that fell in Weston, Connecticut.[30] Silliman believed the meteor had a cosmic origin, but meteors did not attract much attention from astronomers until the spectacular meteor storm of November 1833.
It takes time for these things to sink in (apparently, despite e.g. the Chelyabinsk meteor, and all the craters, and how all the dinosaurs have wings now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_meteor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_impact_craters_on_Eart... )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoroid#History
> Although meteors have been known since ancient times, they were not known to be an astronomical phenomenon until early in the nineteenth century. Prior to that, they were seen in the West as an atmospheric phenomenon, like lightning, and were not connected with strange stories of rocks falling from the sky. In 1807, Yale University chemistry professor Benjamin Silliman investigated a meteorite that fell in Weston, Connecticut.[30] Silliman believed the meteor had a cosmic origin, but meteors did not attract much attention from astronomers until the spectacular meteor storm of November 1833.
Neither of those things lead to a space-faring civilization.
Has he ever talked about how people would survive on Mars without a magnetosphere?
most likely using martian soil as a radiation shield. Either built up in mounds around structures, or by tunneling under the ground (boring company?)
Is a magnetosphere what would contain the atmosphere? I remember reading that if someone did nuke the poles the atmosphere would escape anyway
living under big shields perhaps?
Self-promotion:
If you want weekly updates about SpaceX's progress, and about space science and the space industry in general, I write a newsletter for just that purpose: https://orbitalindex.com
If you want weekly updates about SpaceX's progress, and about space science and the space industry in general, I write a newsletter for just that purpose: https://orbitalindex.com
I wonder how they handle differences in plans/knowledge/outlook between the 4 shifts. I can totally see the AM team working towards different quality standards or designs than the Evening team because they never talk to one another.
usually people change across shifts over time, you don't always work with the same people every time, so there would be a continuous sync up.
[deleted]
This Musk quote from the article resonated with me:
> There’s plenty of forgiveness if you pass me the buck. There is no forgiveness if you don’t.
> There’s plenty of forgiveness if you pass me the buck. There is no forgiveness if you don’t.
Next week, Musks inbox is flooded with "Weld 28467 is looking slightly bubbly. It'll probably be okay, but wanted to pass the buck to you".
That was my first thought as well - how does the spiritus movens behind both Tesla and SpaceX have the bandwidth to pull off that level of (micro)management?
Passing the Buck for Musk seems to ask people also to include in the buck a (potential) solution for the (potential) problem.
He doesn't, plain and simple. So either it is propaganda or dilution or hybris. Probably a combination of all three.
People say he doesn't over and over - but he beats expectations over and over. Hmm.
Once working on an important project (and the work went round the clock), Sergei Korolev ordered people to literally wake him up at night if some serious questions or problems surfaced up. His team took that literally, and Korolev was woken up a few times at night. Later he said "you seem to conspired to not let me get some sleep", but nobody was fired[1], and the team still adjusted to a balance between importance of problem visibility and importance of getting rest.
Sorry for no references, writing from memory :) .
[1] Firing in Korolev's team was a whole 'nother story entirely. For example, Korolev used to fire people in the morning only to require them to work extra hard in the same afternoon. The team got used to this feature. In reality, nobody wanted to be fired - people saw the importance of their work.
Sorry for no references, writing from memory :) .
[1] Firing in Korolev's team was a whole 'nother story entirely. For example, Korolev used to fire people in the morning only to require them to work extra hard in the same afternoon. The team got used to this feature. In reality, nobody wanted to be fired - people saw the importance of their work.
Two things. Yes he does, but despite his management style, not because of it. And no, he doesn't have the bandwidth people think he has. That is part of his narrative, and that narrative, more than anything else, keeps his companies afloat.
Not to forget that he misses a ton of deadlines and constantly moves the goal posts. Helps in beating expectations.
Not to forget that he misses a ton of deadlines and constantly moves the goal posts. Helps in beating expectations.
Wonder if friction stir welding would be suitable instead?
That seems to be used when very strong + predictable welding is needed.
Not sure if it's generally used for 4mm thick material though.
That seems to be used when very strong + predictable welding is needed.
Not sure if it's generally used for 4mm thick material though.
Living without big plans & big dreams is bad, don't matter how crazy they are. Why I support Elon.
So we've accepted that we're never going to find life on Mars, and that there's no concern of "contamination"? Or is this just a big plan to build a city in the first bit of "unspoilt" wilderness we can find off planet?
[deleted]
I hope he gets to solve the terraforming part of going to Mars, as well.
Also, maybe he sets his eyes on colonizing the ocean space on Earth - lots of empty space in the water.
Do a simple lower bound calculation, and you see that Elon is talking out of his ass.
Curious, does spacex have any work from home software dev jobs?
So I guess this is how living in the 1960s felt like? :)
godspeed
Settle on Mars
PedroBatista(4)
Who da hell wants to go live there seriously??
Humans are not biologically adapted to surviving on Mars, and for that reason, any settlement to Mars is bound to fail in the long term.
Humans are not adapted to live in space either. But because of a couple brave people, we now know a little about how to counteract zero gravity's degradation on the body (Bone and muscle loss -> stricter workout regiment). Bound to fail in the long term is quite the statement to make given our ability to build tools based on data that could increase our chance of survival.
Low gravity is one thing. But the radiation outside the Earth's magnetic field is quite another. People colonizing Mars will need to shield themselves from several types of harmful radiation. Wich means in practice: living underground.
Could be living underground. Water is also an effective radiation shield. Combined with predictive modeling, we might have a chance.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/spaceweather/ind...
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/spaceweather/ind...
Agreed. You could cover your above-ground pressurized habitat with blocks of ice. Or with a thick layer of dirt. But the subjective experience remains about the same as living underground.
There are a lot of people who live indoors almost 100% of the time in the winter in northern climates. A lot of the larger northern cities have underground walkways between buildings with subway access etc. No one wants to even walk across the street when it's 40 below. :)
I expect that designs for 'permanently underground/inside' cities would need to include some high-ceiling park-like areas with some bright UV lights, and other considerations, but that sort of thing seems pretty doable. Whether it would be enough to maintain a population's mental heath I guess would need to be seen, but generally speaking I think humans are a pretty adaptable bunch...
I expect that designs for 'permanently underground/inside' cities would need to include some high-ceiling park-like areas with some bright UV lights, and other considerations, but that sort of thing seems pretty doable. Whether it would be enough to maintain a population's mental heath I guess would need to be seen, but generally speaking I think humans are a pretty adaptable bunch...
> I expect that designs for 'permanently underground/inside' cities would need to include some high-ceiling park-like areas with some bright UV lights, and other considerations, but that sort of thing seems pretty doable.
Definitely doable. But then there's no longer any special appeal to living on Mars, as opposed to: living in rotating space habitats among the asteroids.
If we reformulate Musk's goal as being: "Create off-site backups of human civilization", then I think asteroid mining & space habitats have a better shot at bootstrapping this process than colonizing Mars.
Once we are leveled up this way in resources and technology, building settlements on Mars can be a side-effect of this outcome. Just like the burgeoning scientific outposts on Antarctica are a side-effect of our current civilization.
Definitely doable. But then there's no longer any special appeal to living on Mars, as opposed to: living in rotating space habitats among the asteroids.
If we reformulate Musk's goal as being: "Create off-site backups of human civilization", then I think asteroid mining & space habitats have a better shot at bootstrapping this process than colonizing Mars.
Once we are leveled up this way in resources and technology, building settlements on Mars can be a side-effect of this outcome. Just like the burgeoning scientific outposts on Antarctica are a side-effect of our current civilization.
I like the idea - why waste all that energy going up and down, and missing out on swimming in zero g? :)
But rotating space habitats might not be as good at replacing gravity as some think. Even with the really-huge 'O'Niell cylinder' scale (8 kilometers diameter), coriolis effects would be noticeable. I suspect a number of industrial processes would be affected by it.
I expect some of the major industrial processes will still need/want to be done on a big pile of rock or sand, rather than in a more fragile object that inherently wants to explode and fling apart all the time :).
But rotating space habitats might not be as good at replacing gravity as some think. Even with the really-huge 'O'Niell cylinder' scale (8 kilometers diameter), coriolis effects would be noticeable. I suspect a number of industrial processes would be affected by it.
I expect some of the major industrial processes will still need/want to be done on a big pile of rock or sand, rather than in a more fragile object that inherently wants to explode and fling apart all the time :).
And then the big question becomes "How is living underground on Mars better than living underground on Earth?"
The magnetic field is, by far, the easiest problem. There are many other unsolved problems, but that isn’t one of them.
Now I’m working if making a very large current loop on the ground would double up as a launch/landing system where the planet itself is the reaction mass…
(Probably not; the chances are the requirements for safety and reaction are orders of magnitude different from each other).
Now I’m working if making a very large current loop on the ground would double up as a launch/landing system where the planet itself is the reaction mass…
(Probably not; the chances are the requirements for safety and reaction are orders of magnitude different from each other).
We're not biologically adapted for surviving in Siberia, but we manage it. Hell, you'll get hypothermia on the French Riviera in winter without clothes.
Technology has always been our way of expanding into spaces we're not otherwise evolved to cope with.
Technology has always been our way of expanding into spaces we're not otherwise evolved to cope with.
In Siberia you can have: breathable air, drinkable water, edible food, safe radiation levels.
Siberia is not survivable without technology.
Mars requires more technology, but that's a matter of magnitude, not impossibility.
Mars requires more technology, but that's a matter of magnitude, not impossibility.
Keeping people warm is the only problem to solve in Siberian winter. Humanity solved it thousands of years ago.
Antarctica is cold year around, lacks food, lacks sun light for half a year. Almost no one wants to live permanently in Antarctica.
Mars has all of the Antarctica problems, almost zero sun light, lack of air, lack of water, radiation, toxic soil, low gravity, extreme remoteness.
It may be theoretically possible for a colony on Mars to survive, but it remains to be seen if enough people would do it in practice.
Antarctica is cold year around, lacks food, lacks sun light for half a year. Almost no one wants to live permanently in Antarctica.
Mars has all of the Antarctica problems, almost zero sun light, lack of air, lack of water, radiation, toxic soil, low gravity, extreme remoteness.
It may be theoretically possible for a colony on Mars to survive, but it remains to be seen if enough people would do it in practice.
> Almost no one wants to live permanently in Antarctica.
I mean, that's at least in part because you can't on a legal level. There's no private property rights and any of the Antarctic Treaty participants has the right to enter and inspect any installation on the continent. It's a set of research stations, not a colony.
Siberia has other problems similar to Mars. Water is frozen, so you have to melt it (as on Mars). Growing seasons are short (similar to the sunlight issue, which we've solved on Earth with grow lights...).
Focusing on the "Mars has more things to solve" thing continues to ignore the point.
I mean, that's at least in part because you can't on a legal level. There's no private property rights and any of the Antarctic Treaty participants has the right to enter and inspect any installation on the continent. It's a set of research stations, not a colony.
Siberia has other problems similar to Mars. Water is frozen, so you have to melt it (as on Mars). Growing seasons are short (similar to the sunlight issue, which we've solved on Earth with grow lights...).
Focusing on the "Mars has more things to solve" thing continues to ignore the point.
> Focusing on the "Mars has more things to solve" thing continues to ignore the point.
I would like to know if solutions are feasible or even wanted.
Hypothetical Antarctic colony could simply ignore Antarctic Treaty. Did anyone seriously try?
Mars frozen water is likely not directly drinkable after melting. After all, martian soil seems to be toxic.
I would like to know if solutions are feasible or even wanted.
Hypothetical Antarctic colony could simply ignore Antarctic Treaty. Did anyone seriously try?
Mars frozen water is likely not directly drinkable after melting. After all, martian soil seems to be toxic.
This 100%.
But you don't need to go to Siberia for Earth to be extremely difficult to survive in. Wherever you are, if you lack technology your chance of surviving is very low. Without clothing, housing, fire, tools it's very, very hard to survive anywhere on Earth.
The only reason life is so safe and pleasant right now on this planet is because we changed our environment to make it so.
If we were to survive on Mars, we would have to do the same. The advantage with Mars is that we wouldn't have to start from scratch.
But you don't need to go to Siberia for Earth to be extremely difficult to survive in. Wherever you are, if you lack technology your chance of surviving is very low. Without clothing, housing, fire, tools it's very, very hard to survive anywhere on Earth.
The only reason life is so safe and pleasant right now on this planet is because we changed our environment to make it so.
If we were to survive on Mars, we would have to do the same. The advantage with Mars is that we wouldn't have to start from scratch.
Comprehending orders of magnitude is the problem of humans not groking exponentials.
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The alternative is we either go extinct on earth or find another earth-like planet to go to, which won't have humans on in and may not be able to support us any better than mars
I don't know how fun that would be to roam around with a helmet on your face or live in a giant doom or environment controlled building
I imagine mars would be terraformed eventually over time. It just needs a little atmosphere to get going
Unfortunately, due to Mars' lower gravity and lack of a magnetically active core, not only can it not hold a substantial atmosphere to begin with, any such atmosphere would inevitably be blown away by solar winds.
So there's that. Maybe we can put a big dome around the whole thing like Planet Druidia.
So there's that. Maybe we can put a big dome around the whole thing like Planet Druidia.
The timeline for that process is millennia, so if we come up with a continual process for replenishment that works on shorter timeframes, it's maintainable.
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-mission-reveals-spee...
> MAVEN measurements indicate that the solar wind strips away gas at a rate of about 100 grams (equivalent to roughly 1/4 pound) every second. "Like the theft of a few coins from a cash register every day, the loss becomes significant over time," said Bruce Jakosky, MAVEN principal investigator at the University of Colorado, Boulder. "We've seen that the atmospheric erosion increases significantly during solar storms, so we think the loss rate was much higher billions of years ago when the sun was young and more active.”
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-mission-reveals-spee...
> MAVEN measurements indicate that the solar wind strips away gas at a rate of about 100 grams (equivalent to roughly 1/4 pound) every second. "Like the theft of a few coins from a cash register every day, the loss becomes significant over time," said Bruce Jakosky, MAVEN principal investigator at the University of Colorado, Boulder. "We've seen that the atmospheric erosion increases significantly during solar storms, so we think the loss rate was much higher billions of years ago when the sun was young and more active.”
Fair enough, but that still results in an inherently unstable biosphere.
The entire solar system is an inherently unstable construct. Luckily for us the instability is on a scale of billions of years. Terraforming mars would be similar. It would be a herculean effort that would take several lifetimes to complete, but the result could be stable on the scale of millions of years without further input. With a bit of maintenance it could well be stable for the life of the solar system.
Genuinely curious, is it possible to make atmosphere in Mars just like in Earth? Isn't this because of Earth's unique gravity that we have an atmosphere? I'm not a physicist so please excuse my ignorance.
Well, humans are not biologically adapted to surviving outside of a cave of reasonably hot part of ancient Africa.
Yet people now manage to survive the winter in Europe just fine using technology.
Mars and space settlement in general can be seen as yet another - more challenging - extension of this long term progress.
Also possibly in the future one could upgrade people themselves to make living in space easier.
Yet people now manage to survive the winter in Europe just fine using technology.
Mars and space settlement in general can be seen as yet another - more challenging - extension of this long term progress.
Also possibly in the future one could upgrade people themselves to make living in space easier.
Yes. It seems like having robots colonize a planet or the moon would be a lot smarter.
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Steve jobs was super rude to Elon Musk! Right.
What is the benefit of settling on Mars?
Until we explain that in some kind of sane way that doesn’t just involve the earth being a crutch for raw materials, it all seems rather stupid to me.
Settling an earth-like planet? Sure! Seems logical. Mars? Not really.
Until we explain that in some kind of sane way that doesn’t just involve the earth being a crutch for raw materials, it all seems rather stupid to me.
Settling an earth-like planet? Sure! Seems logical. Mars? Not really.
Also, the thing we do not have an earth like planet in a reasonable distance to settle. We have a few candidates that might be earth-like from the few scraps of date we have been able to gleam about them, but all are many light years away, which is much MUCH more mindbogglingly farther than the ~9 months of flight time our probes can already do today to reach Mars.
Ability to survive nuclear war. He doesn't just want to settle, he wants to settle with a self-sustaining colony. It's a contingency plan.
We've almost plunged the world into nuclear holocaust a couple times before. India and Pakistan are at each other's throats, and rising ethnonationalist populism and climate change are threatening to strain these tensions further. This is a real risk.
We've almost plunged the world into nuclear holocaust a couple times before. India and Pakistan are at each other's throats, and rising ethnonationalist populism and climate change are threatening to strain these tensions further. This is a real risk.
I'd buy into Musk's Mars bullshit if he built a sealed self-contained colony in New Mexico. We have experience with two long term space habitats, Mir and the ISS. Despite all of the engineering know how that built both shit breaks on them all the time and needs to be repaired. They also need regular resupply because they're nowhere near self sufficient. They also need a Soyuz capsule docked at all times in case they need to evacuate.
The Starship is an iterative design with seventy years of engineering knowledge behind it. Keeping humans alive outside the Van Allen belts for a long duration and then on a completely inhospitable planet has very little engineering knowledge behind it.
Also to suggest a Mars colony is a contingency plan is ludicrous. In order for a Mars colony to be a human civilization contingency plan it would not only need to be self sustaining but self perpetuating. Otherwise a life ending event on Earth would just give the Mars colonists a few months to come to terms with their mortality. Then no kore humans.
There is nowhere in the solar system that can support humans in the way Earth can. In fact everywhere else is so hostile we need to take significant amounts of Earth with us just to not die immediately.
If you want to live in underground colonies have the Boring company build you tunnels here on Earth. At least when you need parts for the GECK you can go above ground with just a gas mask and rugged clothes instead of a bulky space suit.
The Starship is an iterative design with seventy years of engineering knowledge behind it. Keeping humans alive outside the Van Allen belts for a long duration and then on a completely inhospitable planet has very little engineering knowledge behind it.
Also to suggest a Mars colony is a contingency plan is ludicrous. In order for a Mars colony to be a human civilization contingency plan it would not only need to be self sustaining but self perpetuating. Otherwise a life ending event on Earth would just give the Mars colonists a few months to come to terms with their mortality. Then no kore humans.
There is nowhere in the solar system that can support humans in the way Earth can. In fact everywhere else is so hostile we need to take significant amounts of Earth with us just to not die immediately.
If you want to live in underground colonies have the Boring company build you tunnels here on Earth. At least when you need parts for the GECK you can go above ground with just a gas mask and rugged clothes instead of a bulky space suit.
Arthur C Clarke opined that we should be building self sufficient settlements under the ocean before moving on to space
Not really a reference, but related, http://socialsciences.cornell.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/02...
Not really a reference, but related, http://socialsciences.cornell.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/02...
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Not a bad idea, it's a good way to save the few healthy/surviving ones if coronavirus (or nature, or humanity itself) ends up wiping all of humanity.
Elon Musk is beyond obsessed with reaching Mars. I feel bad for his employees
I'm happy Musk _is_ obsessed. The world would be a worse off place without SpaceX and Tesla, who both are what they are to a large extent because of him.
> I'm happy Musk _is_ obsessed.
I can definitely empathize with that, I'm happy with what's being achieved as well. Seing how SpaceX and Tesla are routinely achieving their goals and arguably change the world, I often can't get over the fact that the output of our civilization seems to hinge on the iron will of a few billionaires.
Elon Musk (and SpaceX as his tool) is just an extremely illustrative example of this, because we can directly see what our space capabilities and ambitions would look like without him.
I wish there was a Musk-like figure focused on transhumanism, but sadly it may genuinely be too early for that in my lifetime. Or not. And that's the frustrating thing: we wouldn't know until one appears.
I know this sounds like I'm writing a love letter, but it's really not meant that way. I would rather live in a civilization that has its own momentum and a better-distributed capacity for achievement, as opposed to putting my hope for the future on a few tenuous human pivot points and their whims.
I can definitely empathize with that, I'm happy with what's being achieved as well. Seing how SpaceX and Tesla are routinely achieving their goals and arguably change the world, I often can't get over the fact that the output of our civilization seems to hinge on the iron will of a few billionaires.
Elon Musk (and SpaceX as his tool) is just an extremely illustrative example of this, because we can directly see what our space capabilities and ambitions would look like without him.
I wish there was a Musk-like figure focused on transhumanism, but sadly it may genuinely be too early for that in my lifetime. Or not. And that's the frustrating thing: we wouldn't know until one appears.
I know this sounds like I'm writing a love letter, but it's really not meant that way. I would rather live in a civilization that has its own momentum and a better-distributed capacity for achievement, as opposed to putting my hope for the future on a few tenuous human pivot points and their whims.
The momentum of civilisation is meandering and spread. The few humans burning their own path are straightforward and fateful, there seems to be more change happening once there's a single individual behind it, but perhaps only because more change in every direction seems less than the pure firethrodden path of the single individual.
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> I wish there was a Musk-like figure focused on transhumanism
There is, his name is Elon Musk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink
Unfortunately, the science and technology involved is nowhere near ready for a Starship-style push to be feasible. That's not even mentioning the legal environment.
There is, his name is Elon Musk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink
Unfortunately, the science and technology involved is nowhere near ready for a Starship-style push to be feasible. That's not even mentioning the legal environment.
Likewise the social and economic environment.
Let’s hypothesise sufficient brain scans. I think even that is a way off yet?
Is a backup of your mind protected by the right to avoid self-incrimination? What about the minds of your pets?
Does a backup need to be punished (e.g. prison) if the person it is made from is punished? What if the offence occurred after the backup was made?
If the mind state is running rather than offline cold-storage, how many votes do all the copies get? What if they’re allowed to diverge?
If you memorise something and then get backed up, is that copyright infringement?
If a mind can run on silicon for less than the cost of food to keep a human healthy, can anyone other than the foremost mind in their respective field ever be employed?
If someone is backed up then the original is killed by someone who knows they were backed up, is that murder or the equivalent of a serious assault that causes a small duration of amnesia?
Let’s hypothesise sufficient brain scans. I think even that is a way off yet?
Is a backup of your mind protected by the right to avoid self-incrimination? What about the minds of your pets?
Does a backup need to be punished (e.g. prison) if the person it is made from is punished? What if the offence occurred after the backup was made?
If the mind state is running rather than offline cold-storage, how many votes do all the copies get? What if they’re allowed to diverge?
If you memorise something and then get backed up, is that copyright infringement?
If a mind can run on silicon for less than the cost of food to keep a human healthy, can anyone other than the foremost mind in their respective field ever be employed?
If someone is backed up then the original is killed by someone who knows they were backed up, is that murder or the equivalent of a serious assault that causes a small duration of amnesia?
They can always leave.
I'd presume that many of them are on-board in the first place because they're engaged by the idea.
I'd presume that many of them are on-board in the first place because they're engaged by the idea.
I suspect we have a few groups. Those who drank the kool-aid and liked it. Those who used to believe in it but after abuse are now stuck in an endless cycle where they have no time for job searches. And those that never drank the kool-aid and will leave after getting time on their resume.
It takes a great mix of super smarts and super stupid to work there.
It takes a great mix of super smarts and super stupid to work there.
> I suspect we have a few groups.
I think that's pretty much accurate, and what I saw when I was at the Job Faire in Browning last month, most were surprised by how extensive my experience was before I applied to get there: I worked for one of Kimbal's companies, I did a short stint at the Mars Desert Research Station, and got to know the Director and was asked to come back under her on a crewed mission etc...
Most were there to dip there toes and see what it was all like, but some of us were kool-aid drinkers for sure.
I met a SpaceX engineer in S. OC at an inn/out years ago and struck up a chat and the way he spoke about it was inspiring; despite the commute, long hours, fears of possibly going bankrupt before every launch (this was before Falcon 9 was recoverable) he seemed very fulfilled: like this is what he was here to do.
I got to stay after hours and hang out with some the crew in Browning as they were having dinner-lunch and it was the same vibe--smiles everywhere and just a really warm and inviting environment as you knew you among similar 'crazies.' I'm not sure if its cult-like or not but it was one of those rare moments I've had in Life where people genuinely wouldn't want to be anywhere else than where they are.
Money can't really buy that, and that is probably why I'm so drawn to it. If you're there trying to have a cushy work-life balance in any Musk corp you're deluding yourself.
I think that's pretty much accurate, and what I saw when I was at the Job Faire in Browning last month, most were surprised by how extensive my experience was before I applied to get there: I worked for one of Kimbal's companies, I did a short stint at the Mars Desert Research Station, and got to know the Director and was asked to come back under her on a crewed mission etc...
Most were there to dip there toes and see what it was all like, but some of us were kool-aid drinkers for sure.
I met a SpaceX engineer in S. OC at an inn/out years ago and struck up a chat and the way he spoke about it was inspiring; despite the commute, long hours, fears of possibly going bankrupt before every launch (this was before Falcon 9 was recoverable) he seemed very fulfilled: like this is what he was here to do.
I got to stay after hours and hang out with some the crew in Browning as they were having dinner-lunch and it was the same vibe--smiles everywhere and just a really warm and inviting environment as you knew you among similar 'crazies.' I'm not sure if its cult-like or not but it was one of those rare moments I've had in Life where people genuinely wouldn't want to be anywhere else than where they are.
Money can't really buy that, and that is probably why I'm so drawn to it. If you're there trying to have a cushy work-life balance in any Musk corp you're deluding yourself.
There is some segment of the population that would pity your perspective as the disillusionment of an abused spouse. I don't. I get it.
> There is some segment of the population that would pity your perspective as the disillusionment of an abused spouse. I don't. I get it.
Thanks, I often wonder if this is healthy practice myself as it can be rather personally-abusive to be so mission-centric, but then I see the consequences of the alternative: consider how many people in the US alone consume psychotropic drugs just to cope with depression despite having access to so much of everything but being so inherently listless and distracted.
I won't bemoan about the pitfalls about the Human Condition, but I will say that despite the hardships and loss I still see this as a worthwhile endeavor and wish to be part of it all, especially when you understand the implications it may have for the Species if we get this right.
Which right now as we're seeing the blow-back of something significant (albeit minor in the grand scheme of outbreaks) like Coronavirus is really alarming.
Thanks, I often wonder if this is healthy practice myself as it can be rather personally-abusive to be so mission-centric, but then I see the consequences of the alternative: consider how many people in the US alone consume psychotropic drugs just to cope with depression despite having access to so much of everything but being so inherently listless and distracted.
I won't bemoan about the pitfalls about the Human Condition, but I will say that despite the hardships and loss I still see this as a worthwhile endeavor and wish to be part of it all, especially when you understand the implications it may have for the Species if we get this right.
Which right now as we're seeing the blow-back of something significant (albeit minor in the grand scheme of outbreaks) like Coronavirus is really alarming.
No engineer that works at SpaceX and is actually good at what s/he does would have an issue finding a job somewhere else. Having SpaceX on your resume is a guaranteed door opener. Everyone that I knew did it because they believed in the company's mission. Eventually, many went on to other places, many others kept on.
basically everyone who works on "space" projects drank a fucking gallon of post-apollo space koolaid.
all of the aerospace companies take wild advantage of it.
at least musk is actually doing something interesting with their obsession, and not just building bigger bombs.
all of the aerospace companies take wild advantage of it.
at least musk is actually doing something interesting with their obsession, and not just building bigger bombs.
Right, particularly, engineers who can build space stations definitely have other employment options.
Not many if they want to build space stations.
An odd response! :)
If SpaceX didn't exist, how would they put food on the table?
If SpaceX didn't exist, how would they put food on the table?
Working at a Musk company usually is, from what I've heard, a rigorous, fast-moving and stressful experience. It's expected, from the top all the way down, that people move really fast and push really hard.
So, given that, here's my question: is it not well known, ahead of time, that's the environment? How many people are truly surprised once they hire on?
I've been a long-time fan of most of Musk's work, acknowledging that the man is deeply flawed.
Yet even though I personally believe in most of what Musk wants to accomplish, I will never work at any of his companies, even though I'm quite qualified for several roles in each.
I believe in the mission, but my personal and family time is even more important to me.
Note that all of the above is, roughly, talking about salaried/technical/management positions, and not, roughly, about hourly.
So, given that, here's my question: is it not well known, ahead of time, that's the environment? How many people are truly surprised once they hire on?
I've been a long-time fan of most of Musk's work, acknowledging that the man is deeply flawed.
Yet even though I personally believe in most of what Musk wants to accomplish, I will never work at any of his companies, even though I'm quite qualified for several roles in each.
I believe in the mission, but my personal and family time is even more important to me.
Note that all of the above is, roughly, talking about salaried/technical/management positions, and not, roughly, about hourly.
If you work for someone else you have already traded your time for a wage and their benefit. How is this any different?
Right because people who work for SpaceX have no interest in the same goal.
A Linguistic Beef:
The word "Starship" means specifically that the ship is capable of traveling between stars. At a minimum, it should travel from it's home star to the nearest neighboring star.
What we're talking about here are "Spaceships". -- The only way I can lighten up and enjoy the name Starship in this context is to assume it's being used ironically... like someone who's named their cat "Dog".
The word "Starship" means specifically that the ship is capable of traveling between stars. At a minimum, it should travel from it's home star to the nearest neighboring star.
What we're talking about here are "Spaceships". -- The only way I can lighten up and enjoy the name Starship in this context is to assume it's being used ironically... like someone who's named their cat "Dog".
There are other vehicles called "Starship" that aren't actual starships either - the Beechcraft Starship (a twin-engined turboprop pusher aircraft) or "The Starship" (a Boeing 720 used by Led Zeppelin and other bands). It's a proper noun chosen as a name or model designation for the vehicle, as opposed to a common noun describing the vehicle itself (a spacecraft).
It's going to be really interesting to see how vocabulary changes as frequent space travel becomes a reality. This may be one of the few times in history where a field has had so much imagination invested into defining it (sci-fi stories making up words for things) before it slowly becomes a reality.
It is called after a fictional spacecraft
https://science.howstuffworks.com/10-fictional-spacecraft-we...
https://science.howstuffworks.com/10-fictional-spacecraft-we...
Seen from the earth every light point in the sky is a star at first. Even planets. Or the starship itself. Or some satellites. So even if it only travels to Mars, which looks like a star to us it would be OK to call it that. Don't be so uptight!
>The word "Starship" means specifically that the ship is capable of traveling between stars.
Well, it would be capable. Just very-very slow.
Well, it would be capable. Just very-very slow.
I don’t get the point
1) we are plain in the middle of a mass extinction event, expected to get much worst in a decade or two. Wouldn’t it be good to solve that first?
2) we need a 4th industrial revolution to survive global warming as a civilization. Wouldn’t be better to fix that first? (No, electric cars won’t suffice)
3) is it really necessary to spoil astronomy/night sky to finance one’s dream? (No, vantablack won’t solve the issue)
4) our technology presently rely on mining 100+ elements. Does anyone here believe one can mine all of those on an a planet that misses an atmosphere? Using Earth ressources for a “colony” seems a dubious idea.
5) has anyone an idea of the CO2 equivalent cost of bringing one person to mars?
6) there is growing evidence that there is life in the Martian underground. Should we take the risk of destroying another biosphere?
1) we are plain in the middle of a mass extinction event, expected to get much worst in a decade or two. Wouldn’t it be good to solve that first?
2) we need a 4th industrial revolution to survive global warming as a civilization. Wouldn’t be better to fix that first? (No, electric cars won’t suffice)
3) is it really necessary to spoil astronomy/night sky to finance one’s dream? (No, vantablack won’t solve the issue)
4) our technology presently rely on mining 100+ elements. Does anyone here believe one can mine all of those on an a planet that misses an atmosphere? Using Earth ressources for a “colony” seems a dubious idea.
5) has anyone an idea of the CO2 equivalent cost of bringing one person to mars?
6) there is growing evidence that there is life in the Martian underground. Should we take the risk of destroying another biosphere?
1) we are plain in the middle of a mass extinction event, expected to get much worst in a decade or two. Wouldn’t it be good to solve that first?
I don't see why we can't do both. Maybe if you come up with an actionable plan you can start your own company like Elon and tackle that problem.
2) we need a 4th industrial revolution to survive global warming as a civilization. Wouldn’t be better to fix that first? (No, electric cars won’t suffice)
No electric cars won't suffice, but they are a start. As is an increase in nuclear, and renewables in areas it makes sense. Again I don't see how this detracts, especially looking at Elon's other ventures. Maybe you can create a company that tackles the concrete problem, that's a big one.
3) is it really necessary to spoil astronomy/night sky to finance one’s dream? (No, vantablack won’t solve the issue)
That's subjective and you don't know if it can be solved or not, seems they are working on it. Why do you think a non-reflective coating won't work?
4) our technology presently rely on mining 100+ elements. Does anyone here believe one can mine all of those on an a planet that misses an atmosphere? Using Earth ressources for a “colony” seems a dubious idea.
We don't have to mine all of them at first. Look where we started here on Earth, from scratch.
5) has anyone an idea of the CO2 equivalent cost of bringing one person to mars?
I'm sure it's negligible relatively. Was that rhetorical or do you have a number?
6) there is growing evidence that there is life in the Martian underground. Should we take the risk of destroying another biosphere?
Are you talking about the ice found? The martian biosphere is already destroyed, terraforming it would bring life to the surface and if there is life it's underground and must be pretty hardy.
I don't see why we can't do both. Maybe if you come up with an actionable plan you can start your own company like Elon and tackle that problem.
2) we need a 4th industrial revolution to survive global warming as a civilization. Wouldn’t be better to fix that first? (No, electric cars won’t suffice)
No electric cars won't suffice, but they are a start. As is an increase in nuclear, and renewables in areas it makes sense. Again I don't see how this detracts, especially looking at Elon's other ventures. Maybe you can create a company that tackles the concrete problem, that's a big one.
3) is it really necessary to spoil astronomy/night sky to finance one’s dream? (No, vantablack won’t solve the issue)
That's subjective and you don't know if it can be solved or not, seems they are working on it. Why do you think a non-reflective coating won't work?
4) our technology presently rely on mining 100+ elements. Does anyone here believe one can mine all of those on an a planet that misses an atmosphere? Using Earth ressources for a “colony” seems a dubious idea.
We don't have to mine all of them at first. Look where we started here on Earth, from scratch.
5) has anyone an idea of the CO2 equivalent cost of bringing one person to mars?
I'm sure it's negligible relatively. Was that rhetorical or do you have a number?
6) there is growing evidence that there is life in the Martian underground. Should we take the risk of destroying another biosphere?
Are you talking about the ice found? The martian biosphere is already destroyed, terraforming it would bring life to the surface and if there is life it's underground and must be pretty hardy.
You can't start from "scratch" on Mars with respect to mining or industry. Cavemen wearing mammoth pelts won't work on Mars. In order to simply survive people would need high levels of technology. Even the most basic living on Mars would need steel and glass and equipment to machine both.
Making a steel or glass plate requires a lot of industrial capability and a capable supply chain to say nothing of raw materials. Both are cheap on Earth because we've built that infrastructure over the past two hundred years. That infrastructure was relatively easy to construct because the workers could wear overalls and hard hats rather than space suits. Taking a lunch break doesn't mean disrobing and piling into a pressure vessel.
Go camping for a weekend in the desert or in the snow sometime. Consider all the crap you need to take with you to not die of exposure or thirst. In those environments where you've got air for free and usually water if you know where to look, you've still got a fair bit of equipment. If you forget anything or lose it you could end up seriously injured or even dead. That's somewhere that's lousy with breathable atmosphere, protection from most ionizing solar radiation, and an average temperature high enough your lungs won't freeze.
Surviving inhospitable environments on Earth requires effort and technology. Surviving outside of Earth is several orders of magnitude more difficult. Thriving outside of Earth is more orders of magnitude beyond mere survival.
Making a steel or glass plate requires a lot of industrial capability and a capable supply chain to say nothing of raw materials. Both are cheap on Earth because we've built that infrastructure over the past two hundred years. That infrastructure was relatively easy to construct because the workers could wear overalls and hard hats rather than space suits. Taking a lunch break doesn't mean disrobing and piling into a pressure vessel.
Go camping for a weekend in the desert or in the snow sometime. Consider all the crap you need to take with you to not die of exposure or thirst. In those environments where you've got air for free and usually water if you know where to look, you've still got a fair bit of equipment. If you forget anything or lose it you could end up seriously injured or even dead. That's somewhere that's lousy with breathable atmosphere, protection from most ionizing solar radiation, and an average temperature high enough your lungs won't freeze.
Surviving inhospitable environments on Earth requires effort and technology. Surviving outside of Earth is several orders of magnitude more difficult. Thriving outside of Earth is more orders of magnitude beyond mere survival.
Agreed.
Just think of the “maintenance” problem. Equipments do fail eventually
Just think of the “maintenance” problem. Equipments do fail eventually
You're taking it too literally. No one is suggesting we wear mammoth pelts, only that our efforts will have to be gradual.
If we want to survive as a race in the long long term, we have to start colonizing at some point.
I just don't see why you're so pessimistic. Let these people go after their dream.
If we want to survive as a race in the long long term, we have to start colonizing at some point.
I just don't see why you're so pessimistic. Let these people go after their dream.
Colonization efforts off Earth can't be gradual. There is a baseline infrastructure necessary for people to live. There are no readily available resources on Mars that exist like they do on Earth. There's no safe places for people on the planet.
Everything people need to survive needs to be brought from Earth. Every aspect of life on Mars needs to be bootstrapped from absolutely nothing. There's no working models for any of that on Earth. That means it all needs to be designed, built, tested, and iterated upon before a single person boards a SpaceX Starship.
Even with Elon Musk's billions that is a vast expense. Even if it was all built, it's billions spent to send people to Mars to simply not die in case a nuclear war wiped out Earth.
It's not pessimistic to point this out, it's realistic. Dreaming about colonizing Mars and hand waving away every practical consideration is just fruitless fantasizing. It's not a plan. It doesn't actually move towards a colony anywhere.
The opportunity cost is billions of dollars and a lot of engineering effort not spent on solutions to more immediate problems that might benefit more people.
Musk talking about colonizing Mars is 90% PR for SpaceX and 10% ego stroking. If SpaceX could build a Starship a week to send people to Mars it would be Musk's friends and billionaires and millionaires. I doubt there's more than a car load of people that work at SpaceX that would be able to afford a Mars ticket. I can't fawn breathlessly over a billionaire describing his fantasy of leaving all us poors to rot on a planet his fellow billionaires ruined.
Everything people need to survive needs to be brought from Earth. Every aspect of life on Mars needs to be bootstrapped from absolutely nothing. There's no working models for any of that on Earth. That means it all needs to be designed, built, tested, and iterated upon before a single person boards a SpaceX Starship.
Even with Elon Musk's billions that is a vast expense. Even if it was all built, it's billions spent to send people to Mars to simply not die in case a nuclear war wiped out Earth.
It's not pessimistic to point this out, it's realistic. Dreaming about colonizing Mars and hand waving away every practical consideration is just fruitless fantasizing. It's not a plan. It doesn't actually move towards a colony anywhere.
The opportunity cost is billions of dollars and a lot of engineering effort not spent on solutions to more immediate problems that might benefit more people.
Musk talking about colonizing Mars is 90% PR for SpaceX and 10% ego stroking. If SpaceX could build a Starship a week to send people to Mars it would be Musk's friends and billionaires and millionaires. I doubt there's more than a car load of people that work at SpaceX that would be able to afford a Mars ticket. I can't fawn breathlessly over a billionaire describing his fantasy of leaving all us poors to rot on a planet his fellow billionaires ruined.
I agree. I'm for the PR stunt of sending humans to Mars.
I really loved America's stunt of going to the Moon and I want a sequel.
Eventually I would like us to have some sort of habitat on Mars which I do not think is far-fetched. I believe SpaceX will spur this movement.
I really loved America's stunt of going to the Moon and I want a sequel.
Eventually I would like us to have some sort of habitat on Mars which I do not think is far-fetched. I believe SpaceX will spur this movement.
I am not pessimistic, I am a scientist that just read the literature. We have now extinction levels 1000-10000 higher than background, this more than previous mass extinctions and expected to go 10 fold worst in the next decades. Moreover we are just a few years to enter a truly non linear regime in the Earth climate dynamics. These are our life support systems on earth and they are about to fall. Swift global action on these points is therefore required for our short term survival.
These people propose solutions for the wealthy. They are BTW ruining my dream of seeing more stars than satellites in the sky. (I’m a material scientist, coatings won’t work)
Therefore I heavily disagree with you: short term survival requires protecting our life support systems here on earth, namely climate and biodiversity (the Earth-System).
I am also very disappointed that people use the word “colonisation” so often, a brief look at history support my doubts.
I don’t mind exploring the solar system when the above issues are fixed, but this has to be done in a scientific way, I.e. exploration, not for a blind colonialist purpose.
These people propose solutions for the wealthy. They are BTW ruining my dream of seeing more stars than satellites in the sky. (I’m a material scientist, coatings won’t work)
Therefore I heavily disagree with you: short term survival requires protecting our life support systems here on earth, namely climate and biodiversity (the Earth-System).
I am also very disappointed that people use the word “colonisation” so often, a brief look at history support my doubts.
I don’t mind exploring the solar system when the above issues are fixed, but this has to be done in a scientific way, I.e. exploration, not for a blind colonialist purpose.
I see. Alright, I'll let you continue whatever it is you think you're doing. A lot of what you said is opinion and a lot of scientists would disagree with your assertions (which are in my eyes pessimistic)
I do believe in this goal though as do others, you should respect other people's dreams, especially when it doesn't detract from yours.
I didn't say this was for short-term survival. This is for long-term survival, we still need to and we are tackling our own planet. Elon himself has disrupted many industries that were contributing to the destruction of this planet (auto, oil & gas)
If you want to help the planet, go help it, don't neg others.
I do believe in this goal though as do others, you should respect other people's dreams, especially when it doesn't detract from yours.
I didn't say this was for short-term survival. This is for long-term survival, we still need to and we are tackling our own planet. Elon himself has disrupted many industries that were contributing to the destruction of this planet (auto, oil & gas)
If you want to help the planet, go help it, don't neg others.
I have no problem that people follow their dreams, on the contrary, when it is done with respect to others.
The Starlink constellation, so far, is not respectful to people who want a clear sky for instance.
Regarding Mars, I don’t want to take your dreams back, I just think it has to be framed in a more global and long term context.
The Starlink constellation, so far, is not respectful to people who want a clear sky for instance.
Regarding Mars, I don’t want to take your dreams back, I just think it has to be framed in a more global and long term context.
> The Starlink constellation, so far, is not respectful to people who want a clear sky for instance.
How do the feelings of a few astronomers trump connecting the rest of the world to the internet?
You're blowing things way out of proportion as well. You fell for all the aggressive attack campaigns. I've seen all the articles you've read, it's not a real issue.
> I just think it has to be framed in a more global and long term context.
What message from SpaceX did you take issue with exactly? I don't think anyone is suggesting we'll all be living on Mars in a few years.
How do the feelings of a few astronomers trump connecting the rest of the world to the internet?
You're blowing things way out of proportion as well. You fell for all the aggressive attack campaigns. I've seen all the articles you've read, it's not a real issue.
> I just think it has to be framed in a more global and long term context.
What message from SpaceX did you take issue with exactly? I don't think anyone is suggesting we'll all be living on Mars in a few years.
Trump??? Is that a new Godwin point???
I suggest you read this article:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.10952.pdf
As you can read there it will threaten our ability to detect dangerous objects. As well as other things.
We have optical fibers, common! Do you need to have Netflix in 8K on top of Kilimanjaro?
The issues I have with mars are:
1) the sheer scale of the project(s) (earth has limited ressources)
2) the lack of scientific framework
3) the arguments that it will be useful for survival
4) the very idea of people fleeing earth in time of major existential problems (climate & biodiversity)
So far it just looks to me like a holiday destination for the very rich. But glad if you can point me to some science that contradicts my view.
I suggest you read this article:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.10952.pdf
As you can read there it will threaten our ability to detect dangerous objects. As well as other things.
We have optical fibers, common! Do you need to have Netflix in 8K on top of Kilimanjaro?
The issues I have with mars are:
1) the sheer scale of the project(s) (earth has limited ressources)
2) the lack of scientific framework
3) the arguments that it will be useful for survival
4) the very idea of people fleeing earth in time of major existential problems (climate & biodiversity)
So far it just looks to me like a holiday destination for the very rich. But glad if you can point me to some science that contradicts my view.
Re your 4th point, this is exactly why you want a working space presence -- if you move all your mining off the planet you just remove one future failure point.
Also, there are lots of people, humanity can walk and chew gum at the same time. On best of the days anyway.
Also, there are lots of people, humanity can walk and chew gum at the same time. On best of the days anyway.
I respect the clarity of the vision and the drivenness to make the vision a reality.
I disagree with the vision. The best analogy I can think of right now is high school kids renting a hotel for a party and trashing it and then doing the same thing next week. That’s humanity right now.
There is no Planet B until we build a mutualistic relationship with the one that created us.
And yes when I say “there is no Planet B” I’m being vaguely spiritual. I believe Earth is a creature and somehow won’t allow one of its creations to explore the stars until that creation learns mutualism. But I’m also being pragmatic: A) colonialism was a big motivation in our last 2 world wars and we still have intense colonizer memes circulating through our societies B) we now have the means to destroy ourselves thoroughly C) Mars is the crown jewel of potential colonies right now.
I disagree with the vision. The best analogy I can think of right now is high school kids renting a hotel for a party and trashing it and then doing the same thing next week. That’s humanity right now.
There is no Planet B until we build a mutualistic relationship with the one that created us.
And yes when I say “there is no Planet B” I’m being vaguely spiritual. I believe Earth is a creature and somehow won’t allow one of its creations to explore the stars until that creation learns mutualism. But I’m also being pragmatic: A) colonialism was a big motivation in our last 2 world wars and we still have intense colonizer memes circulating through our societies B) we now have the means to destroy ourselves thoroughly C) Mars is the crown jewel of potential colonies right now.
The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones. Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming.
I would argue that achieving self-sustainability on Mars forces the issue, even. The problem we’ve had on Earth is that because the costs of being wasteful, polluting, etc are externalized, which makes such behavior “cheap” in the short term — on Earth, the environment is constantly handing out loans that we rarely if ever repay.
That’s not an option on settlements beyond Earth’s surface. There, you’re forced to live with every decision you make almost immediately, so if you’re wasteful or stupid it’s promptly going to bite you in the ass and potentially threaten the lives of everybody involved. You’re not given the option of fixing things later, you have to do the correct thing now, and I think that’s the type of environment it’s going to take for humanity to change its ways.
That’s not an option on settlements beyond Earth’s surface. There, you’re forced to live with every decision you make almost immediately, so if you’re wasteful or stupid it’s promptly going to bite you in the ass and potentially threaten the lives of everybody involved. You’re not given the option of fixing things later, you have to do the correct thing now, and I think that’s the type of environment it’s going to take for humanity to change its ways.
“Forcing the issue” is an interesting perspective, thank you.
> The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones.
I agree that they’re parallel because the reality is that they’re both happening right now. I’m pointing out that there’s a huge risk in not figuring out A before B, which is that we’ll just be transporting our problems to a new planet (and if they succeed, then whoever controls Mars will be able to use their monopoly to exacerbate problems on Earth). Granted, the rocket sure is shiny, though... funny how that trick never fails ;)
> Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming.
Or perhaps you’re in the equivalent of an “early internet” optimism phase around Mars exploration.
We have all the resources we need here. The research around mutualistic living (renewables, land use, food waste, etc) is making that clear. If we’re glorifying hard problems, then the real hard problem is figuring out how to get humanity to share our already abundant resources equitably and peacefully.
Once we solve that problem we will be ready for Mars.
And to be clear I share the dream of exploring the stars. But I can’t in good faith support that dream until we shift from a parasitic to a mutualistic relationship.
I agree that they’re parallel because the reality is that they’re both happening right now. I’m pointing out that there’s a huge risk in not figuring out A before B, which is that we’ll just be transporting our problems to a new planet (and if they succeed, then whoever controls Mars will be able to use their monopoly to exacerbate problems on Earth). Granted, the rocket sure is shiny, though... funny how that trick never fails ;)
> Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming.
Or perhaps you’re in the equivalent of an “early internet” optimism phase around Mars exploration.
We have all the resources we need here. The research around mutualistic living (renewables, land use, food waste, etc) is making that clear. If we’re glorifying hard problems, then the real hard problem is figuring out how to get humanity to share our already abundant resources equitably and peacefully.
Once we solve that problem we will be ready for Mars.
And to be clear I share the dream of exploring the stars. But I can’t in good faith support that dream until we shift from a parasitic to a mutualistic relationship.
Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech.
It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.
It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.
> Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech.
Good point, thanks.
> It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.
Sustainability research is making it clear that we already have an abundance of clean energy resources here on Earth. If Mars does indeed flood the market with cheap clean energy and makes clean energy the overwhelmingly obvious choice, then I agree that will be a net win. But the problem doesn’t appear to be a resource scarcity issue here on Earth so I’m unconvinced that the solution is more resources.
Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? We essentially need something that can be substituted into our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. Mars provides something like that?
Good point, thanks.
> It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.
Sustainability research is making it clear that we already have an abundance of clean energy resources here on Earth. If Mars does indeed flood the market with cheap clean energy and makes clean energy the overwhelmingly obvious choice, then I agree that will be a net win. But the problem doesn’t appear to be a resource scarcity issue here on Earth so I’m unconvinced that the solution is more resources.
Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? We essentially need something that can be substituted into our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. Mars provides something like that?
>>Good point, thanks.
My pleasure.
>>Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically?
I am referring to solar energy via space-based solar panels. Economical solar energy would give us virtually unlimited energy resources.
My pleasure.
>>Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically?
I am referring to solar energy via space-based solar panels. Economical solar energy would give us virtually unlimited energy resources.
We do not backup our data because we are planning to wreck our harddrive. We hope to never have to use it but if things go awry, it will be there.
It will be there for a beautiful cross-section of humanity for a while so long as Musk controls it (but even then he surely has some unconscious biases that will limit certain segments of the population from being there) and then nuclear war will break out on Earth and it will be there for whoever is well-connected to whatever government seizes control of it fastest.
We can do both.
Cheap and rapid space launch may allow us to put polluting industries where they belong: in space.
Cheap and rapid space launch may allow us to put polluting industries where they belong: in space.
Ah, yes, the old “just shove it under the rug” strategy.
Need to ask the question "What is life?"
Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. You argue about "how fast" should it be so life won't starve itself, but I think everybody is familiar with this danger. Then we can approach it more formally: what time/speed/volume/survival probability we want, try to calculate it for different options and go from there.
Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. You argue about "how fast" should it be so life won't starve itself, but I think everybody is familiar with this danger. Then we can approach it more formally: what time/speed/volume/survival probability we want, try to calculate it for different options and go from there.
> Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster.
This sounds like parasite logic to me. We can do better. The fact that I can even conceive thoughts of doing better is all the proof I need to know that we can do better. That’s what vision is about.
This sounds like parasite logic to me. We can do better. The fact that I can even conceive thoughts of doing better is all the proof I need to know that we can do better. That’s what vision is about.
A related question: What’s your bet on how long until the US government starts taking SpaceX seriously and commandeers it under the pretext of national security? Or is Musk already cozied up with the MIC?