Microsoft Surface Duo – Dual-screen Android phone(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Microsoft Surface Duo – Dual-screen Android phone
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/12/21364633/microsoft-surface-duo-release-date-pricing-features-specs
82 comments
Kinda like it. Looks like a Nintendo DS to me :)
Could be a productivity power house in a nice compact form factor. I'm not the guy that checks his phone every 15 mins. but when I"m on a train for a bit, something like this would be amazing. My question would be if it houses the stylus somewhere? Wouldn't want to carry that around separately.
Price is pretty steep, but about the same as an iPhone 11 Pro Max with storage option, still one hell of a luxury purchase, not sure how reasonable this will be these days. Has to be top build quality and pretty much flawless though.
I feels like that format is not that different from what the LG Dual Screen™ for LG G8X ThinQ would offer. A dual screen case, it could have some nice use cases with the proper hardware but difficult to justify the price
I like it too, but with that price, I'm definitely not a target group. It's a nerdy device with a luxury price.
Not sure if The Verge have just screwed up the gif, but this looks painfully slow here: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/wJ90NeII7udsc85i4mlHznodfmQ=...
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21729328/surfaceduoandroidapps.gif){kind=link}
Looks like my pixel3a. Modern software at its finest.
That’s how it usually works on android.
Could be screen recording slowing it down, plus the low FPS makes the animation look janky. (Just a guess.)
Even with so low FPS count and quality it's size is 5MB. People should stop using GIF for videos.
I love the looks of this phone and I think I could make use of the features, but I'm not $1400-curious. I guess I'm cheap, but I'll be fine with a Pixel 4a at $350.
I have a Pixel 2 XL and until the battery starts failing or they stop updating the software it's hard to see much reason to upgrade. It used to be really noticeable every time you got a new phone how much faster it was but I think that's kind of plateaued if you don't use your phone for anything too exotic.
Pixel 2 XL will get updates until October 2020.
I'm on the same phone and if I wouldn't have kids I'd agree, but the dropped frames on video recording and lack of optical zoom make me eyeing the new Xiaomi Mi 10 Ultra if they decide to make it available in Europe.
I don't doubt that Xiaomi makes good stuff, but with the current political situation I'd be hesitant to buy any Chinese Android phone because I'd be afraid of them getting cut off from the Google ecosystem like Huawei (who also made great phones and the only smartwatch I actually liked using) did.
I'm also considering the Samsung Note 20 Ultra for this very reason, but I really loathe Samsung Software so I'm hesitant.
Samsung is all over the place; some stuff they make is great and others I rue having bought.
Yes, $1400 for a phone based on the concept that might be unusable in practice is quite a high price tag. Also, we all know how much Microsoft paid attention to device updating in the past. If this is not a huge commercial success (and it won’t), this will be forgotten in 18 months by MS.
dumb question - why do phones cost so much? for 1400, we can get a pretty good laptop. Is it harder to make phone hardware than laptop hardware - because of size etc?
What it costs to make is irrelevant to the price, it's all about what people are willing to pay. Phones have become indespensible for many people, it's easy to justify spending more on something you use all the time.
Because there's a market, and because having an expensive phone goes a long way to making it feel premium.
Another expensive android?
Why don’t they just sell a phone with desktop windows on it? That could actually compete.
Why don’t they just sell a phone with desktop windows on it? That could actually compete.
Microsoft abandoned their Windows Mobile OS years ago.
Yes, but that wasn't desktop Windows. In fact it inflicted some brand damage on desktop windows, back in the Win8 era, by moving all the new stuff to Metro.
(I'm not sure there's ever been a proper decent portable/handheld that ran Real Windows; there's tiny laptops from the Libretto to the GPD Pockect, which is a nice machine. Or there were handhelds that ran Windows CE back in the PDA era. And I've seen very cheap 8" tablets. But a phone-size form factor? Not quite. I suspect the never completely fixed UI scaling is a problem there.)
(I'm not sure there's ever been a proper decent portable/handheld that ran Real Windows; there's tiny laptops from the Libretto to the GPD Pockect, which is a nice machine. Or there were handhelds that ran Windows CE back in the PDA era. And I've seen very cheap 8" tablets. But a phone-size form factor? Not quite. I suspect the never completely fixed UI scaling is a problem there.)
Trying to press controls intended for desktop Windows on that tiny screen would be an exercise in frustration. Trying using RDP software on your phone and see how productive it is.
1) RDP won’t give you a screen with even the same aspect ratio much less resolution so that’s not a good test.
2) relative pointer position makes small controls extremely usable. You only want absolute position for the keyboard.
2) relative pointer position makes small controls extremely usable. You only want absolute position for the keyboard.
If I have to make two remote desktop connections lasting ten minutes each per workday from the beach, which machine am I bringing: my phone/this? Or a full laptop?
Not as obvious a decision for some.
Not as obvious a decision for some.
OK, so coming back to the original point, are you going to want a hotter, more power-hungry phone for 10 minutes of non-mobile Excel on it?
Windows 10 for ARM is far from abandoned. It could probably run on a device like this.
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With desktop Windows on ARM, they would have OK battery life, but few apps. With desktop Windows on Intel, they would have apps, but no battery life. With desktop Windows on either architecture, they would have very little support for normal phone use cases; interesting as it might be, it doesn't sound like a recipe for mainstream success.
Edit: in fact, I suspect that even on ARM, without heavy-handed optimisation for battery, it wouldn't have good battery life.
Edit: in fact, I suspect that even on ARM, without heavy-handed optimisation for battery, it wouldn't have good battery life.
Especially curious that they called a Surface which runs desktop Windows until now. Hopefully they'll make such a version that can still run Android apps. Otherwise I expect iPadOS will be better for things other than consuming faster than these Android devices will.
No one would develop apps for it. What is a smartphone without apps?
What are you talking about? Windows has an incredible app library, competitive (some say better even) with desktop Linux. Both of which have an even larger and more complete app library than OSX (and arguably the iphone.)
Take that App Library and compare it to iOS and Android. Windows is missing so many apps that people want it’s not even a comparison. Before Microsoft killed windows mobile they were desperate to get developers to make more apps for their OS. So much so that they
1. Paid people 100-200k to port their iOS or Android app to it 2. Invested in tooling that can let windows phone run ios and android apps natively
Both failed and now they are investing in PWAs likely with the hopes of getting a bunch of devs to switch over. With the end goal being them rereleasing windows phone in a few years with rich PWA support.
Basically the lack of apps killed windows mobile and would be no different here
1. Paid people 100-200k to port their iOS or Android app to it 2. Invested in tooling that can let windows phone run ios and android apps natively
Both failed and now they are investing in PWAs likely with the hopes of getting a bunch of devs to switch over. With the end goal being them rereleasing windows phone in a few years with rich PWA support.
Basically the lack of apps killed windows mobile and would be no different here
All it needs is something for calls and something for MMS. Every other "app" would just be a Windows application. Windows application developers would be developing apps for it, but continuing to do what they do.
The Microsoft Courier concept finally after more than a decade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmIgNfp-MdI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmIgNfp-MdI
Wow the pricing is ridiculous. It's using last year's flagship CPU and has two screens with a hinge. Be interesting to see how it sells but I'm not convinced it's a good buy.
Man, I'd love to get this but that price is steep. I just hate how small smartphone displays are in general and how constrained multitasking is. Say I'm chatting with somebody and I nerd a source for something I'm arguing. I need to switch from the chat app, browse for a while, copy, switch, paste, keep typing. And if I need more than one, that's a whole lot of switching back and forth which is fairly slow and tedious and breaks the context I'm in every single time. Doesn't just go for chatting. Sometimes I'm writing something and need a reference. Switching back and forth every couple of seconds is unbearable. If I can get away with it, I'd rather pull out my tablet, but I also don't always have it with me.
The physical size is close to the much-loved 1990s PDA, Psion Series 5:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5
Of course this device is dual touchscreen, so it doesn’t have the tactile keyboard that made the Psion so popular with writers on the road.
Still, it’s interesting to see a big tech company make another attempt at the “pocket laptop” form factor.
Of course this device is dual touchscreen, so it doesn’t have the tactile keyboard that made the Psion so popular with writers on the road.
Still, it’s interesting to see a big tech company make another attempt at the “pocket laptop” form factor.
The spiritual successor to the Psion Series 5 is the Cosmo Communicator: https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/cosmo-communicator
Similar size, but has the classic Psion keyboard (it was designed by the same guy, Martin Riddiford) and runs Android or Linux. As a phone, it has an external 2.5" touchscreen.
I've got to say that the software lacks polish -- Planet Computers are a very small firm -- and while the design is an improvement over their earlier Gemini PDA, it's not a great phone. I have higher hopes for next year's model, the Astro Slide, which seems to combine the best of the "pocket laptop" and touchscreen worlds (assuming they get it to work properly):
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...
... Oh, and it's about half the price of the Surface Duo (which looks vastly more polished but also rather expensive).
Similar size, but has the classic Psion keyboard (it was designed by the same guy, Martin Riddiford) and runs Android or Linux. As a phone, it has an external 2.5" touchscreen.
I've got to say that the software lacks polish -- Planet Computers are a very small firm -- and while the design is an improvement over their earlier Gemini PDA, it's not a great phone. I have higher hopes for next year's model, the Astro Slide, which seems to combine the best of the "pocket laptop" and touchscreen worlds (assuming they get it to work properly):
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...
... Oh, and it's about half the price of the Surface Duo (which looks vastly more polished but also rather expensive).
Just curious, is a user supposed to put the device up to their ear to make a phone call? Or is the expectation to use a bluetooth headset?
Don't work for Apple/MSFT/Google, but have knowledge of usage data for various smart-phone OS's: you'd be surprised at how _calling_ has become a minor use case across the board when it comes to smart phones.
It's now a "feature" that primarily caters to power users: if you use calling, you use it a lot - otherwise the user tends to use messaging / texting / other medium (like FaceTime.)
Therefore my design guess is that Microsoft is aiming for the video call / bluetooth headset, and will take the hit in terms of awkwardness for holding up to your ear for some calls.
It's now a "feature" that primarily caters to power users: if you use calling, you use it a lot - otherwise the user tends to use messaging / texting / other medium (like FaceTime.)
Therefore my design guess is that Microsoft is aiming for the video call / bluetooth headset, and will take the hit in terms of awkwardness for holding up to your ear for some calls.
You want to make phone calls on it? I don't think that is coming until version 3.
Good questions. I was looking for a "phone side". To make, or receive a call you have to use two hands to open that thing up and use it? Is anti-ergonomic a design? How can you see who's calling? Even something as simple as the time we've all had since the 90's? Missed messages? Voicemail waiting? Any type of control, or info, requires you to open up the tiny laptop? Or you have to basically wear a Bluetooth headset at all times? Wow, that would be awful. Even the flip-phones of yore allowed you to see who was calling without opening the phone and, opening just required a flick of the thumb. Perhaps there are some indicators under the front/back of the closed body that we just don't know about?
I'm not being anti-microsoft, but it looks like someone just brought back the netbook.
I'm not being anti-microsoft, but it looks like someone just brought back the netbook.
So .. is this the first Microsoft Android phone? Or is it something weird that happens to run Android apps?
Full Android. They have a simulator for public already for the past few months.
LG makes one like this already, the G8X.
Pathetic. I’ve never once thought “oh I know what this phone needs, a second screen, that forces me to ‘open’ it and makes one handed use impossible.”
I should add I’ve nothing against Microsoft and used Windows Phone / Windows 10 Mobile until the end of 2018. But dual screen devices are dead in the water I think.
I should add I’ve nothing against Microsoft and used Windows Phone / Windows 10 Mobile until the end of 2018. But dual screen devices are dead in the water I think.
Has anyone ever released a two-sided phone, with a screen on each side (so the opposite idea of one that closes like this, no hinges)? Bonus points if they're two independent phones but sharing the same battery, e.g. for company phone and personal phone
Why would you want a device with two screens where you can only look at one of them at a time? It'd make a lot more sense to have a single screen and a switch (maybe in hardware?) to toggle between "screen 1" and "screen 2".
A low power e-ink screen on one side for reading e-books and the like, an ordinary screen on the other for video, games and other things which need low latency and full color. It's been tried a few times but never really took off:
https://www.eink.com/mobile-wearables.html?type=application&...
https://www.eink.com/mobile-wearables.html?type=application&...
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You just really enjoy worry about screen scratches
Yotaphone + 3 has this, the display on the back is an eInk display.
I love the concept and how things flow between the two screens, but it looks really weird when held to the ear for a call. I don’t like large screens and this one just seems too large to be called a “phone”...”phablet” seems a more appropriate term.
Much like the new IMac 27" look at those bezels. Compare it to the Surface Pro X, it looks like its from the 2000's
A single camera seems like a drawback.
Why would you need more than one camera?
Multiple sensors behind multiple lenses with different focal ranges being able to take multiple images simultaneously and then stitch them together is how the back camera works on most modern high end smart phones. Or using each camera individually for the best photo.
Bonus points for those that employ ML to optimise the result.
Bonus points for those that employ ML to optimise the result.
To justify the $1400.
For one thing, on iPhones it enables the portrait mode.
Looks useful for Office work on the go but the price is steep.
Or you could just get any other Android or iPhone and run Office on it.
The Samsung Fold and Huawei Mate X makes this thing an anachronism. It reminds me of a BlackBerry Playbook vs an iPad. How embarrassing.
No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/IPod
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/IPod
Underpowered CPU, laggy interface, poor battery life. Fail.
Quote me in a year.
Quote me in a year.
They’ll sell dozens!
Well, there's a few possibilities:
* They'll sell dozens, and everyone will give up.
* They'll sell dozens, iterate a few times, and I'll have a nice device.
* They'll sell dozens, someone else will iterate, and I'll have a nice device.
I think you're right that it will be the first (Microsoft doesn't have much stick-to-it-ness), but I'm really hoping for the second or third. I really want a device like this.
I'm definitely not buying a V1 Microsoft device to become a beta tester for $1400, though. Microsoft devices don't tend to work well until V2 or V3.
* They'll sell dozens, and everyone will give up.
* They'll sell dozens, iterate a few times, and I'll have a nice device.
* They'll sell dozens, someone else will iterate, and I'll have a nice device.
I think you're right that it will be the first (Microsoft doesn't have much stick-to-it-ness), but I'm really hoping for the second or third. I really want a device like this.
I'm definitely not buying a V1 Microsoft device to become a beta tester for $1400, though. Microsoft devices don't tend to work well until V2 or V3.
I really want a device like this
Just curious, what is your use case?
Just curious, what is your use case?
Anywhere where one might use two windows on a computer:
* Seeing two pages of a book
* Looking up something on the internet while videoconferencing
* Looking up something in a textbook in a web browser while reading a book
* Same as above, but with two web pages (e.g. API docs and protocol docs, or comparing two products, or whatever)
The ability to have multiple applications open and visible at the same time is really quite general. It's the reason we made the move from DOS/dumb terminals to Windows/X/MacOS. It's just often helpful to have a few things up at once.
I'd use this all the time.
I don't mind carry something big and ugly around. I'm a nerd, and not too concerned with fashion, so much as with practicality.
Heck, with the right software, I might consider investing in a compact bluetooth keyboard and mouse to go along with it. That would give a nice intermediate between lugging around my (big) laptop and not.
* Seeing two pages of a book
* Looking up something on the internet while videoconferencing
* Looking up something in a textbook in a web browser while reading a book
* Same as above, but with two web pages (e.g. API docs and protocol docs, or comparing two products, or whatever)
The ability to have multiple applications open and visible at the same time is really quite general. It's the reason we made the move from DOS/dumb terminals to Windows/X/MacOS. It's just often helpful to have a few things up at once.
I'd use this all the time.
I don't mind carry something big and ugly around. I'm a nerd, and not too concerned with fashion, so much as with practicality.
Heck, with the right software, I might consider investing in a compact bluetooth keyboard and mouse to go along with it. That would give a nice intermediate between lugging around my (big) laptop and not.
The only people who will buy this device are folks with disposable income who want a status symbol.
International exchange students from the UAE and HK come to mind.
International exchange students from the UAE and HK come to mind.
To the extent that wearable computers in the nineties, large graphic calculators, or calculator watches became a status symbol.....
This is big, bulky, ugly, but incredibly practical for people who want to get stuff done.
This is big, bulky, ugly, but incredibly practical for people who want to get stuff done.
Maybe.
My phone is on the blink and I'm probably going to buy the Pixel 4a, largely because I want a smaller phone, preferably a stock android and I don't really see much additional value in high end features.
Still, if I could occasionally go from comfortable in one hand to, I crack it open and I have a double screen side for reading a book or looking at docs on the go and that'd be nice.
Whether it can be implemented and whether it's worth an extra $1000 is a discussion point.
TL;DR got small hands. Interested, but probably not for the price point.
My phone is on the blink and I'm probably going to buy the Pixel 4a, largely because I want a smaller phone, preferably a stock android and I don't really see much additional value in high end features.
Still, if I could occasionally go from comfortable in one hand to, I crack it open and I have a double screen side for reading a book or looking at docs on the go and that'd be nice.
Whether it can be implemented and whether it's worth an extra $1000 is a discussion point.
TL;DR got small hands. Interested, but probably not for the price point.
v3.11 or even v95
"Microsoft is also using algorithms to predict how to open apps on different displays. 'There is an algorithm in there that’s very smart and trying to be predictive,' explains Panay. “If you’re on one screen and you’re invoking a link, it will fill the other screen."
That's if/then statements. You invented if/then statements.
That's if/then statements. You invented if/then statements.
"Don't be snarky."
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> You invented if/then statements.
I've seen worse from some AI startups.
I've seen worse from some AI startups.
Nah bro we used a GAN to predict the decision tree.
It reminds me when I was at a user group at Microsoft for the launch of the new Windows Phone OS...
... The guy gave a long marketing speech about how "beautiful" it was, how they did so much user research on what people wanted and spent a fortune developing and using a brand new font for the interface(s).
Then, someone stuck their hand up and said "Is it true that you don't have copy/paste features yet?"
Why can't people learn... things may be important, but no one cares about the technicalities... I don't care if this is algorithm, AI, ML... neural network processing or some other fancy new term...
... just give the user a setting for what screen something should pop up on and everyone will be happy!
... The guy gave a long marketing speech about how "beautiful" it was, how they did so much user research on what people wanted and spent a fortune developing and using a brand new font for the interface(s).
Then, someone stuck their hand up and said "Is it true that you don't have copy/paste features yet?"
Why can't people learn... things may be important, but no one cares about the technicalities... I don't care if this is algorithm, AI, ML... neural network processing or some other fancy new term...
... just give the user a setting for what screen something should pop up on and everyone will be happy!
The iPhone also didn't have copy and paste for a while. And the trade-off with more options is they're work to maintain and users are confused by them.
Yep - but, the iPhone came from nowhere, and, "no copy and paste" was put out by Microsoft to say how bad it was...
Microsoft basically took a backwards step from Windows CE and then did the same years after it was the norm in other systems.
Microsoft basically took a backwards step from Windows CE and then did the same years after it was the norm in other systems.