One Year of Nushell(nushell.sh)
nushell.sh
One Year of Nushell
https://www.nushell.sh/blog/2020/08/23/year_of_nushell.html
48 comments
At work we have a program that uses the exit code to encode three enums. Each digit of the decimal representation of the exit code corresponds to one of these enums.
It’s some of the most cursed code I’ve ever worked with.
(God bless anyone who ever used this program and got a set fault or sigint or sighup and therefore a bizarre result.)
It’s some of the most cursed code I’ve ever worked with.
(God bless anyone who ever used this program and got a set fault or sigint or sighup and therefore a bizarre result.)
I was horrified by your post, because I've had to deal with load-bearing exit codes.
Then, I read the part about each digit of the decimal representation.
Now I may need to lie down for a spell.
Then, I read the part about each digit of the decimal representation.
Now I may need to lie down for a spell.
That is a very bad design. Especially since you have only one byte to work with.
What is the decimal range of values used?
What is the decimal range of values used?
I think 11 to 200, but it’s not surjective
In a redesigned shell, ideally there would be a richer way to describe the result of a program. Maybe "return an integer and consult the manual to see what it means" isn't the best way forward.
Personally, I think Result types from Rust/Haskell/Swift make a lot of sense -- a program either succeeds with some output, or fails with an explanation of why. By default, pipes stop piping if one command fails.
Personally, I think Result types from Rust/Haskell/Swift make a lot of sense -- a program either succeeds with some output, or fails with an explanation of why. By default, pipes stop piping if one command fails.
> Personally, I think Result types make a lot of sense -- a program either succeeds with some output, or fails with an explanation of why
Usually, this is what happens. Usually, the error-signalling return is accompanied by a message (posted to stderr).
> By default, pipes stop piping if one command fails
Usually, this is what happens. Usually, the error-signalling return is accompanied by a message (posted to stderr).
> By default, pipes stop piping if one command fails
set -o pipefailpipefail is not available to POSIX shells like dash
set -o pipefail is now part of POSIX[0] and I believe as soon as someone posts a patch to dash to implement it, it will get included[1].
[0]. https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=789
[1]. https://lore.kernel.org/linux-dash/20200701015226.GA6839@gon...
[0]. https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=789
[1]. https://lore.kernel.org/linux-dash/20200701015226.GA6839@gon...
This is great! Thanks for posting it.
Plan9 returns an error string instead of an error integer with the empty string signifying success. This seems like a simple and useful improvement to me.
> In a redesigned shell, ideally there would be a richer way to describe the result of a program
And there is in PowerShell - you can return arbitrary complex object.
And there is in PowerShell - you can return arbitrary complex object.
Do people use PowerShell for interactive use a lot?
As a Unix person my impression of PowerShell is that it’s more robust for scripting than the Unix shells, but that the Unix shells are more suitable for interactive use. And for anything of sufficient complexity and/or size I’d personally reach for either Python or I’d write a program in Rust.
I guess in the end it comes down to personal preference and what you are familiar with.
Incidentally, when I started at the university, when I was still using Windows, and PowerShell had recently come out I actually started with PowerShell and was getting comfortable with it. But we learned about Linux at the university and a friend I made at the university was showing me Linux stuff, and I started using Linux and FreeBSD instead of Windows. If it wasn’t for that then I’d probably have been a PowerShell person today.
As a Unix person my impression of PowerShell is that it’s more robust for scripting than the Unix shells, but that the Unix shells are more suitable for interactive use. And for anything of sufficient complexity and/or size I’d personally reach for either Python or I’d write a program in Rust.
I guess in the end it comes down to personal preference and what you are familiar with.
Incidentally, when I started at the university, when I was still using Windows, and PowerShell had recently come out I actually started with PowerShell and was getting comfortable with it. But we learned about Linux at the university and a friend I made at the university was showing me Linux stuff, and I started using Linux and FreeBSD instead of Windows. If it wasn’t for that then I’d probably have been a PowerShell person today.
PowerShell is underrated, but it's its own worst enemy, stubbornly insisting on LongForm-VerbNoun syntax for all but the most common commands that anyone familiar with the shell would expect. A few UI touchups and it could go substantially further, especially as MS continues quietly gutting the NT heritage out of Win10 and integrating more and more nix-like features, including full Linux kernel emulation, all so you can run Docker without a VM! What a world.
I continue to believe that within 10 years, Microsoft will have just switched entirely to Linux+WINE under the covers. :)
I continue to believe that within 10 years, Microsoft will have just switched entirely to Linux+WINE under the covers. :)
The long command names are really only something you use in scripts. Powershell is my main shell for both scripting and interaction and at least on my system it comes installed with tons of short aliases for common commands.
For example: Get-ChildItem was already aliased to both ls and gci on my system.
For example: Get-ChildItem was already aliased to both ls and gci on my system.
Not just on your system. Default aliases come OTB and they were only slightly changed with arise of the pwsh so not to mirror some native commands.
I use powershell full time and quite honestly I think it's better than bash. The main selling point for me was that I only need to learn posh and how it works vs having to learn 20 different utilities with varying UX.
The best example of this I think is ConvertFrom-Json vs something like jq. Jq's syntax is extremely difficult to learn, but with powershell I just built upon the knowledge I already had and got to use the same commands I use everywhere else.
The best example of this I think is ConvertFrom-Json vs something like jq. Jq's syntax is extremely difficult to learn, but with powershell I just built upon the knowledge I already had and got to use the same commands I use everywhere else.
I use powershell interactively 24/7.
Its totally funny (and lame) that people complain about its verbosity since its not true (verbosity is optional) and that typically shows that person wasn't involved at learning it at all and thus can be ignored.
Furthermore, there is an alias naming standard in posh, besides having all linux like names, they are usually named by first letter of verb and first and second word letter of noun (Get-ChildItem => gci; Get-Service => gsv; )
Then we have a parameter aliases, just use any unique subset of the its name ( -Computer => -C or -Co or -Com ... )
You can also customize those names with proxy cmdlets.
All in all, almost 100% of the time PowerShell sentence is way shorter then equivalent bash sentence.
Its totally funny (and lame) that people complain about its verbosity since its not true (verbosity is optional) and that typically shows that person wasn't involved at learning it at all and thus can be ignored.
Furthermore, there is an alias naming standard in posh, besides having all linux like names, they are usually named by first letter of verb and first and second word letter of noun (Get-ChildItem => gci; Get-Service => gsv; )
Then we have a parameter aliases, just use any unique subset of the its name ( -Computer => -C or -Co or -Com ... )
You can also customize those names with proxy cmdlets.
All in all, almost 100% of the time PowerShell sentence is way shorter then equivalent bash sentence.
I used PowerShell basically only in an interactive capacity for a few years, but have switched to nu full-time a few months back.
There's enough aliases for bashisms that honestly, the largest hurdle to switching was "rm -r -Fo" rather than "rm -rf".
There's enough aliases for bashisms that honestly, the largest hurdle to switching was "rm -r -Fo" rather than "rm -rf".
> In a redesigned shell
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't exit codes an OS-level thing? That would be one hell of a redesign!
Not that I wouldn't absolutely love to have rich/structured return values, but that's already hard to do in a single-language system - even ignoring backwards compatibility, doing this in a traditional OS would require a level of cooperation I don't think the industry is capable of.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't exit codes an OS-level thing? That would be one hell of a redesign!
Not that I wouldn't absolutely love to have rich/structured return values, but that's already hard to do in a single-language system - even ignoring backwards compatibility, doing this in a traditional OS would require a level of cooperation I don't think the industry is capable of.
Marcel is another pipe-objects-instead-of-strings shell. It takes a different approach to shell/language unification, compared to nushell and other modern shells. Marcel exposes Python on the command line, e.g. to find files that changed in the last day:
Scripting is done in Python, using marcel's shell commands as functions, by importing the module marcel.api. So the examle above in Python would be:
For more info: https://www.marceltheshell.org, https://github.com/geophile/marcel.
ls -fr | select (f: now() - f.mtime < days(1))
Scripting is done in Python, using marcel's shell commands as functions, by importing the module marcel.api. So the examle above in Python would be:
from marcel.api import *
for file in (ls(file=True, recursive=True) |
select(lambda f: now() - f.mtime < days(1))):
print(file)
For more info: https://www.marceltheshell.org, https://github.com/geophile/marcel.
It's not a different approach though. It works exactly the same way in powershell(just the host language is different).
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I believe my comment still applies to nushell and a couple of others.
I like bash for simple commands, but hate the requirement to learn so many sublanguages for more sophisticated usage, (as in sed, awk, find, and others). I like Python for scripting, but the integration of shell commands is really not very good. I built marcel to fix both of these problems.
I like bash for simple commands, but hate the requirement to learn so many sublanguages for more sophisticated usage, (as in sed, awk, find, and others). I like Python for scripting, but the integration of shell commands is really not very good. I built marcel to fix both of these problems.
Powershell scripting is still done in the powershell language, but you can import all of the .net/c# runtime to use.
I'd like to build the same but using the JVM/groovy as the runtime/scripting language.
I'd like to build the same but using the JVM/groovy as the runtime/scripting language.
Nushell is the only shell I know of (other than fish) which uses threads. Threads are famously difficult in shells because of the fork/thread interaction.
How is Nushell able to use threads? For example how are subshells implemented?
How is Nushell able to use threads? For example how are subshells implemented?
Part of it could be due to using Rust as the implementation language. Rust has good, cross-platform abstractions over things like threads and processes. The language tends to make it harder to shoot yourself in the foot.
Would definitely like to hear from the authors of Nushell on how their language choice has held up over the course of the project.
Would definitely like to hear from the authors of Nushell on how their language choice has held up over the course of the project.
A related issue is leaking fds into child processes. For example, Go locks around fork() to prevent racing with creating new fds (e.g. from pipe) [1]. Rust doesn't have any synchronization between fork and creating fds; I wonder whether/how this is addressed in nushell.
1: https://golang.org/src/syscall/exec_unix.go?s=7064:7143#L19
1: https://golang.org/src/syscall/exec_unix.go?s=7064:7143#L19
My guess it doesn't use fork, apart from spawning subprocesses use fork/exec combinations. The old fork idiom isn't exposed by Rusts standard libraries and also wouldn't be "safe" to use, since the basic expecatations of the language about how many things have access to a certain variable wouldn't hold up anymore.
One of my favorite, unexpected features of nushell so far is `$it` the implicit "iteration" variable. It makes sense to have something like this in conjunction with the 'each' command, which makes it very easy to loop over lists or tables.
But $it is still useful in the absence of 'each'.
For instance:
dirname is a useful tool but you can't pipe to it (at least not the GNU version), it expects a string parameter. We can still easily plug it into nushell pipelines though, thanks to $it, which is this case is basically turning stdin into a string.
Since dirname won't let us do
But $it is still useful in the absence of 'each'.
For instance:
dirname is a useful tool but you can't pipe to it (at least not the GNU version), it expects a string parameter. We can still easily plug it into nushell pipelines though, thanks to $it, which is this case is basically turning stdin into a string.
Since dirname won't let us do
which nu | get path | dirname
which nu | get path | dirname $it
Like
which nu | xargs dirname
This seems very interesting. After a quick play I cannot find anything similar to 'less' which I use very frequently. Is there a nushell equivalent?
The equivalent is called `textview` which is a built-in which tries to be a bit more intelligent than `less` with regard to file-types.
The default viewer, which sort of runs at the end of every pipeline is called `autoview`.
Now.. autoview should be calling textview in the cases where the pipeline detects a large text value. It is possible that you're not exactly running a pipeline.
For instance: If you run:
If you run:
The default viewer, which sort of runs at the end of every pipeline is called `autoview`.
Now.. autoview should be calling textview in the cases where the pipeline detects a large text value. It is possible that you're not exactly running a pipeline.
For instance: If you run:
cat big.log
If you run:
open big.log
you're invoking nushell's mechanism for creating a pipeline sourced by the contents of big.log. You should also notice that textview is invoked, because there should be a pager.
cat big.log | textview
The command that I was trying to use was 'ls', which doesn't seem to play with textview when I try it out 'ls | textview' (just no output at all). textview does work for me with files, as in your example.
less is a program, why can’t you use it from nu?
Is it just me or does the lack of line continuation (i.e.
\) really ruin all of the beauty the rest of this shell provides?
[deleted]
reading only this post, is nushell just an implicit awk after each pipe, that already know the output format of a few common programs? or something more than that?
Think powershell, but built in rust, posix first and better at processing data(xml, csv, json, ...)
I looked at the book, currently it is nowhere close to powershell.
As far as i can tell no way to define any function/commands(you have to write plugins in another language, make an executable??). It supports pipeline, has a large amounts of built-in operators/commands(probably enough to be usable as a shell) and built-in parsers for a few formats(how does one write support for another data format?). Maybe in future it will address these questions.
As far as i can tell no way to define any function/commands(you have to write plugins in another language, make an executable??). It supports pipeline, has a large amounts of built-in operators/commands(probably enough to be usable as a shell) and built-in parsers for a few formats(how does one write support for another data format?). Maybe in future it will address these questions.
The linked post is explicitly about that:
> Looking at Nu today, you can see some common parts of languages like `if` or `open`, but it doesn’t yet feel like there’s enough syntax to build up full programs. You can’t define your own commands, your own variables, and you can’t build out a project across multiple files. We’re working to address all of these limitations so that Nu can function not only for one-liners, but also for much more.
> Looking at Nu today, you can see some common parts of languages like `if` or `open`, but it doesn’t yet feel like there’s enough syntax to build up full programs. You can’t define your own commands, your own variables, and you can’t build out a project across multiple files. We’re working to address all of these limitations so that Nu can function not only for one-liners, but also for much more.
But Nushell is POSIX compliant?
It is quite a bit more in-depth than that.. It really is more of a structured data pipeline in a programming environment. It's more like Spark than Awk.
There are bulti-in methods like `parse` and `split`, `format` which can provide awk-like behavior. However, there are many other built-in methods which operate on tables, floats, vectors and integers.
I actually have a ticket in to make some of the parsing behavior a bit more "awk like" (https://github.com/nushell/nushell/issues/2375)
There are bulti-in methods like `parse` and `split`, `format` which can provide awk-like behavior. However, there are many other built-in methods which operate on tables, floats, vectors and integers.
I actually have a ticket in to make some of the parsing behavior a bit more "awk like" (https://github.com/nushell/nushell/issues/2375)
Good point. Exit codes can be difficult. A non-zero error value may not be an error; it could indicate a type of success or be a warning or a result of a calculation or any number of things depending on the application.