I built an app to fix my depression(blog.elifiner.com)
blog.elifiner.com
I built an app to fix my depression
http://blog.elifiner.com/how-i-built-an-app-to-fix-my-depression/
178 comments
I think, as op also insinuates, it is all about acceptance. Accepting one's shortcomings, accepting that you can't do everything you want(ed), that you wont become what you always dreamed of. Love yourself despite of what you think of as shortcomings, think of the things you did achieve (and the things you have, like a stoic philosopher). You are a pretty incredible being with pretty incredible skills. If only you acknowledged yourself as such.
Now this "accepting" is not just something you (can) just do, it may be exactly what you need a therapist for. Because you may have to undo years of thinking and redefine your default thought patterns, this is very hard work.
For all the parents, I think this is a pretty important thing to teach your kids. Telling them: "If you work hard you can be whatever you want to be!" Is, imho, damaging, because it is not true, you are setting them up for disappointment in themselves.
In short: Happiness = Reality - Expectation
Don't burden yourself or your kids with unrealistically large expectations.
Now this "accepting" is not just something you (can) just do, it may be exactly what you need a therapist for. Because you may have to undo years of thinking and redefine your default thought patterns, this is very hard work.
For all the parents, I think this is a pretty important thing to teach your kids. Telling them: "If you work hard you can be whatever you want to be!" Is, imho, damaging, because it is not true, you are setting them up for disappointment in themselves.
In short: Happiness = Reality - Expectation
Don't burden yourself or your kids with unrealistically large expectations.
> I think, as op also insinuates, it is all about acceptance.
I second this. From my experience you have to START WITH ACCEPTING the status quo and honestly looking at it without judging or being ashamed. It helps me to tell myself: "This is not terrible. I am alive. I have a job. My body is still working OK."
From there FOCUS ON THE DELTA: What can I do today that will bring me into a slightly better position tomorrow.
Avoid thinking about the past ("I ate too much today.", "I did not exercise all week."). This is done. No way to change it.
Don't set high expectations. You only need to know where you want to be, and that you are going into the right direction. It does not matter much if you arrive there in one week or in five years.
I second this. From my experience you have to START WITH ACCEPTING the status quo and honestly looking at it without judging or being ashamed. It helps me to tell myself: "This is not terrible. I am alive. I have a job. My body is still working OK."
From there FOCUS ON THE DELTA: What can I do today that will bring me into a slightly better position tomorrow.
Avoid thinking about the past ("I ate too much today.", "I did not exercise all week."). This is done. No way to change it.
Don't set high expectations. You only need to know where you want to be, and that you are going into the right direction. It does not matter much if you arrive there in one week or in five years.
I think the next level of peace and acceptance is unlocked when:
- you set the delta of “what can I do today to achieve” to be low enough that it’s actually realistic and not what you wish it was (while still being high enough to actually mean something), and,
- if you still fall short, you don’t kill yourself with shame & guilt, recognising that you actually lose more time in that process.
Not easy to learn, and not easy to stay in that space. Meditation helps (after a long long time of doing it).
(Oh and if you have ADHD - undiagnosed or otherwise - please forgive yourself for it, and forgive yourself each time you get thrown off the rails because of it - yes, even if that is multiple times per hour. Everything else flows from that forgiveness and self acceptance.)
- you set the delta of “what can I do today to achieve” to be low enough that it’s actually realistic and not what you wish it was (while still being high enough to actually mean something), and,
- if you still fall short, you don’t kill yourself with shame & guilt, recognising that you actually lose more time in that process.
Not easy to learn, and not easy to stay in that space. Meditation helps (after a long long time of doing it).
(Oh and if you have ADHD - undiagnosed or otherwise - please forgive yourself for it, and forgive yourself each time you get thrown off the rails because of it - yes, even if that is multiple times per hour. Everything else flows from that forgiveness and self acceptance.)
I think rating expectations beforehand is a self-defeating stance. Anyone can have whatever big expectations. The point is to work towards it, and then not being disappointed if the goal is not reached, and to enjoy whatever gains were collected on the road.
I wonder if there are humans that are really immune to feeling bad when constantly not living up to their own expectations.
Nothing wrong with working hard of course, just make sure you like what you do and who you are while doing it.
Nothing wrong with working hard of course, just make sure you like what you do and who you are while doing it.
Can't help myself, but I'm reminded of this sketch by Key & Peele that pushes accepting ones circumstances into the absurd.
https://youtu.be/Ngk3VX405GE
:D Brilliant, what a peace of mind acceptance and a general positive attitude can give ;)
This is the same line of thought Mark Manson (Subtle art of not giving a Fuck). He says seeking happiness is a bad idea and the same that telling kids you can be whatever you want is damaging just as you said. He says things that I feel like we know most of the times but just don't want to admit.
This[1][2] is what he has to say about depression. It's largely about acceptance.
[1]: https://markmanson.net/youre-okay
[2]: https://markmanson.net/the-uncomfortable-truth
This[1][2] is what he has to say about depression. It's largely about acceptance.
[1]: https://markmanson.net/youre-okay
[2]: https://markmanson.net/the-uncomfortable-truth
I'm going to save some people time and summarize link [2]
Mark Manson says The Uncomfortable Truth is that our lives are meaningless and when we die, nothing we did will have mattered. That the human condition requires hope so we invent narratives, as individuals and as society, to create a mental framework that makes life worth living.
That's all well and good, I was hoping to get some solution or suggestion but I got to the end of the essay and it was essentially "now buy my book to understand more".
I'm going to assume link [1] is of similar quality and conclusion.
Mark Manson says The Uncomfortable Truth is that our lives are meaningless and when we die, nothing we did will have mattered. That the human condition requires hope so we invent narratives, as individuals and as society, to create a mental framework that makes life worth living.
That's all well and good, I was hoping to get some solution or suggestion but I got to the end of the essay and it was essentially "now buy my book to understand more".
I'm going to assume link [1] is of similar quality and conclusion.
It surely is acceptance, but how do you convince yourself of it? How do you convince a young college student, a just-out-of college late 20's (me), a about-to-hit-midlife late 30's/40's person that is struggling to reach the expectation they have put?
Tell a college kid to lower his expectation and he will feel like a "unmotivated" person, tell a 30's/40's that and he will feel like a failure, all his struggle for nothing, and tell a late 20's to lower his expectation and that goes against every self-motivation influencer and (probably) what his surrounding successful peers suggest.
I think most people understand that the answer is acceptance, but how to reach that point, is so different for each person. Because some people overcome it by sheer grit, while some through therapists, it's hard for a person in the grind to realize what course of action is the best, and before it's too late.
Tell a college kid to lower his expectation and he will feel like a "unmotivated" person, tell a 30's/40's that and he will feel like a failure, all his struggle for nothing, and tell a late 20's to lower his expectation and that goes against every self-motivation influencer and (probably) what his surrounding successful peers suggest.
I think most people understand that the answer is acceptance, but how to reach that point, is so different for each person. Because some people overcome it by sheer grit, while some through therapists, it's hard for a person in the grind to realize what course of action is the best, and before it's too late.
I think part of it for me is this underlying anger. Despite these kinds of discussions, there's some sort of continued societal denial about many of the issues that are floating in the background.
Many of the things that are bubbling up in society seem all too much the same. Whether it's school or employers or whatever, there's this kind of overvaluing phenomenon, where the rich and/or successful get more rich and/or successful and we attribute their [increasingly, given increasing inequities] freakish success to something about them, as opposed to being in the right fitting environment at the right point in their careers, or corruption, or something broken in the system, or what. If you're too old, too black, too caring, worked at the wrong place, the place changed, didn't go to a prestigious enough school, were too rebellious as a young adult, whatever, don't know the right people, you're screwed.
I'm not sure what my point is, except to say this acceptance-struggle tension you're referring to is even more complicated because it's not just about lowering or raising your own personal expectations or standards, it's about everything else as well, about accepting or struggling against what's broken in society (at the risk of sounding too idealistic or self-righteous).
What do you do when it's not self-hatred vs acceptance, but self-hatred vs societal anger vs acceptance?
Many of the things that are bubbling up in society seem all too much the same. Whether it's school or employers or whatever, there's this kind of overvaluing phenomenon, where the rich and/or successful get more rich and/or successful and we attribute their [increasingly, given increasing inequities] freakish success to something about them, as opposed to being in the right fitting environment at the right point in their careers, or corruption, or something broken in the system, or what. If you're too old, too black, too caring, worked at the wrong place, the place changed, didn't go to a prestigious enough school, were too rebellious as a young adult, whatever, don't know the right people, you're screwed.
I'm not sure what my point is, except to say this acceptance-struggle tension you're referring to is even more complicated because it's not just about lowering or raising your own personal expectations or standards, it's about everything else as well, about accepting or struggling against what's broken in society (at the risk of sounding too idealistic or self-righteous).
What do you do when it's not self-hatred vs acceptance, but self-hatred vs societal anger vs acceptance?
Acceptance doesn't mean we stop fighting for justice. It just means we accept the current situation as the starting point from which we begin our fight. Releasing our hold on the anger doesn't mean we stop caring. It means we can use the anger to fuel our good fight and not remain stuck fuming on the sidelines.
YMMV but for me, simply talking to lots of people about their lifestyles, expectations and goals helped me feel a lot better about my own.
That might sound obvious, but it's really easy to maintain a large set of relationships without ever talking about those things. Politics, science, arts, sports, etc. are so easy to fill a conversation with that it's a common pitfall to hardly ever broach the subject of who we are and what we're doing.
That might sound obvious, but it's really easy to maintain a large set of relationships without ever talking about those things. Politics, science, arts, sports, etc. are so easy to fill a conversation with that it's a common pitfall to hardly ever broach the subject of who we are and what we're doing.
Acceptance is a bit of a misleading term. We can't directly accept anything, especially if we're trying to force it, because we'll be fighting against not being able to accept the fact that we aren't accepting our circumstances. It's quite recursive.
It maybe difficult to change your expectations of life, maybe we should be asking, why do have these high expectations in the first place?
My question is how do you solve/amend this?
Don't have just one most important/critical thing your life, like your professional life for example.
Very serious advice, go outside and exercise.
Find a friendly real life community to be part of. Fans of movies, fans of some sport, fans of science, anything, just any group of real people that you share sami-regular or regular friendly time with.
Human beings are not made to be alone, regardless of how introverted they are. They are not made to be isolated. They are not made to have little to no physical exercise. We are however made to become easly obsessed to get the job done, so make sure you have more than one fun challenge to become obsessed with.
Don't have just one most important/critical thing your life, like your professional life for example.
Very serious advice, go outside and exercise.
Find a friendly real life community to be part of. Fans of movies, fans of some sport, fans of science, anything, just any group of real people that you share sami-regular or regular friendly time with.
Human beings are not made to be alone, regardless of how introverted they are. They are not made to be isolated. They are not made to have little to no physical exercise. We are however made to become easly obsessed to get the job done, so make sure you have more than one fun challenge to become obsessed with.
Completely agree but covid has completely messed this up. It just makes all this so much more difficult.
For me, the first step was to consciously select meaningful values. That helped me to know what I should do and what I should not do.
The second step was weekly self-assessments regarding how well my actions matched my values.
It didn't take long to meaningfully and permanently improve my unconscious behaviors.
The second step was weekly self-assessments regarding how well my actions matched my values.
It didn't take long to meaningfully and permanently improve my unconscious behaviors.
There's discipline and habits, which are important.
Then there is motivation...
For me, the biggest improvement in motivation came from asking myself questions:
What do I really want to be working on and would enjoy working on?
Lucky for me, I already had experience when I was young writing software for myself and others which made it easier to do more things on the computer. I stayed up all day and all night, focused, motivated, and productive.
I was not motivated by money, deadlines, nor having to have a roof over my head and pay insurance, nor wanting to prove myself to anyone. I was just coding, and all I needed was some sweetened black tea in large quantities...
Another question I asked myself was, what does the world need right now, which would make it a better place, that no one else can provide except me?
This one is not as easy to answer, and the answer may not be the same today as it was yesterday. But if you keep asking yourself this question and pondering the answer, something will come of it.
Another question you may want to ask yourself and ponder on the answer:
What am I better at than anyone else in the world, and how can I help others using it?
Then there is motivation...
For me, the biggest improvement in motivation came from asking myself questions:
What do I really want to be working on and would enjoy working on?
Lucky for me, I already had experience when I was young writing software for myself and others which made it easier to do more things on the computer. I stayed up all day and all night, focused, motivated, and productive.
I was not motivated by money, deadlines, nor having to have a roof over my head and pay insurance, nor wanting to prove myself to anyone. I was just coding, and all I needed was some sweetened black tea in large quantities...
Another question I asked myself was, what does the world need right now, which would make it a better place, that no one else can provide except me?
This one is not as easy to answer, and the answer may not be the same today as it was yesterday. But if you keep asking yourself this question and pondering the answer, something will come of it.
Another question you may want to ask yourself and ponder on the answer:
What am I better at than anyone else in the world, and how can I help others using it?
I can speak on the ADHD aspect of that at least. As for the other things you've described - those might be more anxiety-adjacent issues, and aren't something I can speak to. I've still dealt with depression a few times - but each time that had it's root in untreated ADHD or autism spectrum issues.
Personally, the issue for the longest time was that I didn't understand my own issues. I went way too long without seeking a diagnosis, because I mistakenly believed that medical treatment wouldn't be helpful or attainable as an adult. Turns out medical treatment (psychiatrist - not a therapist) helped me a whole lot. So did doing detailed research on ADHD. The work of Dr. Russel Barkley on ADHD as an executive functioning disorder was particularly informative.
As for trying to reconcile my ADHD with a (healthy) sense of motivation - the best thing I found was actually from some random blog post that basically summarized the information in this article (https://www.additudemag.com/secrets-of-the-adhd-brain/ ). The brief summary: most people without ADHD have behaviors which are motivated by the concepts of Importance, Rewards, and Consequences. People with ADHD are aware of all of those things existing, and often do "care" about them - but if you look at the behavior of people with ADHD - those aren't the things which actually motivate us to action on a regular basis. Instead, we are motivated by Interest, Challenge, Novelty, and Urgency. It's not ideal, but even with medication, I've realized that is true for me - and I can't change it.
For some jobs, like my first post-college job working as a Support Engineer for Amazon AWS - those motivators were actually great. Tickets have really short-term SLAs and are often urgent, AWS was a challenging and interesting work environment, and for the the first year it everything was very novel. However, when I progressed in my in career towards more of a DevOps role, I started working somewhere which practiced two week sprints for everything - which was a total disaster. Kanban worked a good bit better, but no matter where I worked - the novelty, interest, and challenge of the work eventually wore off - and relying on crunch time to motivate myself was causing burnout.
I did think the consequence of guilt or shame from disappointing my teammates was a motivator and felt stress related to that. But in truth, that feeling was something that I mostly felt after I had forgot to do something or ran out of time - and not something that drove me to get work done.
So now I'm just leaning in to the whole thing, risks be damned. I left a pretty cushy remote-work salary job to build a startup, and I've started doing some freelance work on the side for extra income. I pick what I work on, so I'm super interested, I'm challenged frequently, it's novel (for now) and the freelance stuff is urgent because I don't get paid til I deliver. For stuff that is boring and executive functioning related (paying bills, scheduling meetings) - I try to automate as much as possible and be sure notifications for things go to both me and my non-ADHD co-founder who can nag me if I miss something. If I see a lot of success, I would like to pay a personal assistant or secretary to keep things organized / handle boring communications on my behalf. I spent a few years working for an executive who clearly had ADHD, and having an assistant was incredibly helpful to him.
I'm aware this could all crash and burn - but my daily needs are being met and I'm enjoying my life a lot more. It does feel like I'm working smarter. Though I am technically working harder too.
Personally, the issue for the longest time was that I didn't understand my own issues. I went way too long without seeking a diagnosis, because I mistakenly believed that medical treatment wouldn't be helpful or attainable as an adult. Turns out medical treatment (psychiatrist - not a therapist) helped me a whole lot. So did doing detailed research on ADHD. The work of Dr. Russel Barkley on ADHD as an executive functioning disorder was particularly informative.
As for trying to reconcile my ADHD with a (healthy) sense of motivation - the best thing I found was actually from some random blog post that basically summarized the information in this article (https://www.additudemag.com/secrets-of-the-adhd-brain/ ). The brief summary: most people without ADHD have behaviors which are motivated by the concepts of Importance, Rewards, and Consequences. People with ADHD are aware of all of those things existing, and often do "care" about them - but if you look at the behavior of people with ADHD - those aren't the things which actually motivate us to action on a regular basis. Instead, we are motivated by Interest, Challenge, Novelty, and Urgency. It's not ideal, but even with medication, I've realized that is true for me - and I can't change it.
For some jobs, like my first post-college job working as a Support Engineer for Amazon AWS - those motivators were actually great. Tickets have really short-term SLAs and are often urgent, AWS was a challenging and interesting work environment, and for the the first year it everything was very novel. However, when I progressed in my in career towards more of a DevOps role, I started working somewhere which practiced two week sprints for everything - which was a total disaster. Kanban worked a good bit better, but no matter where I worked - the novelty, interest, and challenge of the work eventually wore off - and relying on crunch time to motivate myself was causing burnout.
I did think the consequence of guilt or shame from disappointing my teammates was a motivator and felt stress related to that. But in truth, that feeling was something that I mostly felt after I had forgot to do something or ran out of time - and not something that drove me to get work done.
So now I'm just leaning in to the whole thing, risks be damned. I left a pretty cushy remote-work salary job to build a startup, and I've started doing some freelance work on the side for extra income. I pick what I work on, so I'm super interested, I'm challenged frequently, it's novel (for now) and the freelance stuff is urgent because I don't get paid til I deliver. For stuff that is boring and executive functioning related (paying bills, scheduling meetings) - I try to automate as much as possible and be sure notifications for things go to both me and my non-ADHD co-founder who can nag me if I miss something. If I see a lot of success, I would like to pay a personal assistant or secretary to keep things organized / handle boring communications on my behalf. I spent a few years working for an executive who clearly had ADHD, and having an assistant was incredibly helpful to him.
I'm aware this could all crash and burn - but my daily needs are being met and I'm enjoying my life a lot more. It does feel like I'm working smarter. Though I am technically working harder too.
> we are motivated by Interest, Challenge, Novelty, and Urgency
Holy cow. You've just described my whole life in a single phrase. I need to go away and ponder this. Thanks.
Holy cow. You've just described my whole life in a single phrase. I need to go away and ponder this. Thanks.
How do you feel that your negative mental state is improving your performance?
I had every problem you describe, and it leads to horrible procrastination. I don't think I would be employable at all without my anti-anxiety medication.
I had every problem you describe, and it leads to horrible procrastination. I don't think I would be employable at all without my anti-anxiety medication.
The best way to overcome this is to take a sabbath year and if you can and if you like, to travel around the world. Or to take on something tou wanted to do for a long time. This helps to clear the mind and break the vicious cicles. Only my opinion based on personal experience
I clicked through to one of those articles where it soon brings up "Ego Depletion" which AFAIK has been debunked.
It was debunked and reaffirmed within a narrower context and in general is a pretty controversial concept. Many people however have the personal experience of a limit to their willpower and that's what I'm referring to in the article. I'll actually edit it to remove the reference to Ego Depletion, thanks for poking me.
To me it seems the strategies and tools we're able to build for ourselves often hit the mark much more often than any mainstream advice could give us. In part, this seems to be because we know our idiosyncratic nature much better, but also because we have skin in the game and are therefore willing to be way more creative in solving our own problems.
I've built apps for similar(ish) reasons solely for myself in order to deal with whatever issue I had to deal with. A good example is using TiddlyWiki and simply making a journal with a few fixed questions that simply was asking how I was doing on a few psychological/physiological measures (i.e. exercise and so on).
I've been in the situation where people sought my advice to fix their issues, whatever they were, and applied my strategies. Sometimes they hit the nail and worked, other times they catastrophically failed because they worked against the nature of the person.
While one has to pick their battles, I'd advocate for people to consider making their own tools/techniques/strategies to deal with their issues. I know this isn't always possible or a smart move to do. But I've seen that it's more often the best move in the long-term than not. Oh, and of course that doesn't exclude recruiting help along the way :)
I've built apps for similar(ish) reasons solely for myself in order to deal with whatever issue I had to deal with. A good example is using TiddlyWiki and simply making a journal with a few fixed questions that simply was asking how I was doing on a few psychological/physiological measures (i.e. exercise and so on).
I've been in the situation where people sought my advice to fix their issues, whatever they were, and applied my strategies. Sometimes they hit the nail and worked, other times they catastrophically failed because they worked against the nature of the person.
While one has to pick their battles, I'd advocate for people to consider making their own tools/techniques/strategies to deal with their issues. I know this isn't always possible or a smart move to do. But I've seen that it's more often the best move in the long-term than not. Oh, and of course that doesn't exclude recruiting help along the way :)
Oh I love TW! Although I'm a novice, I've found some use in scoring my journal entries to find out my monthly/all-time mental health score, as well as my food score. It's nice for knowing how I was in previous months.
As for the present, I know when I'm doing poorly in either of those areas, but it's harder to dismiss them as normal when I see their abysmal scores.
As for the present, I know when I'm doing poorly in either of those areas, but it's harder to dismiss them as normal when I see their abysmal scores.
>skin in the game
Thank you so much! I have long felt outside help as lacking in understanding but this just flipped the switch in my brain. This opens many more opportunities to explore.
Thank you so much! I have long felt outside help as lacking in understanding but this just flipped the switch in my brain. This opens many more opportunities to explore.
If you haven't, read Nassim Taleb's Skin in the Game (and heavy recommendation on his other literature too.)
Holy smokes guys, I went to sleep after posting this and woke up to the tiny server running my blog dead and about a 100 comments here. I'll get my kid to school and then sort everything out.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thanks, I am playing with the app, it looks great.
I got one question what other books did you read on Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)? And if you recommend any? I have been told that I am "Empath" and lately reading up on it (mostly online). Empaths and HSP seems related, based on quick research.
I got one question what other books did you read on Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)? And if you recommend any? I have been told that I am "Empath" and lately reading up on it (mostly online). Empaths and HSP seems related, based on quick research.
Yes, I think these are related concepts. I read a whole host of books that are related and have been influential. Off the top of my head (on top of HSP):
The Big Leap The Sedona Method The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership Hold Me Tight The Four Tendencies
The Big Leap The Sedona Method The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership Hold Me Tight The Four Tendencies
It's a cool approach to a problem a lot of people are struggling with right now. It's also not trying to sell me something right off the bat. Great work! It's a net positive contribution to a planet that needs it right now.
I like the idea! However, I don't know much about psychology, so I'd personally be hesitant to create such a product. Certainly "releasing emotions" without a therapist could be somewhat dangerous for some people. And perhaps what actually helped him isn't using the app, but a new sense of purpose or meaning in his life due his discovery of the book and developing the app.
It'd probably be wise to consult an expert on the psychological backgrounds.
It'd probably be wise to consult an expert on the psychological backgrounds.
Thanks for your honesty. Yes, I am going out on a limb creating a product that is based on non-standard methods, and there is some risk to people using it - we all have different and complex responses to events. I've given a lot of thought to the question what would happen if someone killed themselves because of the app? It still keeps me up at night. But I won't stop looking for better answers because the current state of the art in dealing with this isn't enough.
Having a clear goal helps with depression, but leaving my job and trying to start a business around it makes it worse. I'm pretty sure using the app is what's keeping me sane these days, while building it is trying to bury me.
Having a clear goal helps with depression, but leaving my job and trying to start a business around it makes it worse. I'm pretty sure using the app is what's keeping me sane these days, while building it is trying to bury me.
> Certainly "releasing emotions" without a therapist could be somewhat dangerous for some people.
I think this in itself can be a dangerous thought. Agree that some people have dire need for help, an in particular some people might need medication for their condition to avoid getting into self harm behaviors. (Schizophrenia victims for instance.)
However, diving into emotions, trying meditation, and other things is not something to be considered dangerous and to be avoided without professional help. Being afraid of such subjects might in itself lead one to not be able to deal with them. Most people don't have a stand by therapist to consult every time they have some emotions bottled up.
Providing people with a structured approach to meditation/listening to emotions is not like suggesting to someone to do their own surgery. It's more like suggesting to treat a sore muscle with some tradition based massage.
Claiming that it mitigates the need for proper treatment for serious issues would be immoral, but proper treatment isn't always effective (most of the time it's not effective at all) and isn't always available.
I think this in itself can be a dangerous thought. Agree that some people have dire need for help, an in particular some people might need medication for their condition to avoid getting into self harm behaviors. (Schizophrenia victims for instance.)
However, diving into emotions, trying meditation, and other things is not something to be considered dangerous and to be avoided without professional help. Being afraid of such subjects might in itself lead one to not be able to deal with them. Most people don't have a stand by therapist to consult every time they have some emotions bottled up.
Providing people with a structured approach to meditation/listening to emotions is not like suggesting to someone to do their own surgery. It's more like suggesting to treat a sore muscle with some tradition based massage.
Claiming that it mitigates the need for proper treatment for serious issues would be immoral, but proper treatment isn't always effective (most of the time it's not effective at all) and isn't always available.
I had the same thought—making a thing can be cathartic, especially if you wind up listening to relaxing music the entire time you’re working on it.
As far as risk goes this seems low voltage enough to be at worst harmless.
As far as risk goes this seems low voltage enough to be at worst harmless.
agreed. in most cases it is a lifelong battle. what worked for them will not work for all. I do like the idea of the more holistic, self-led approach though
So many mental health apps these days with so little high quality evidence of their effectiveness.
And there are so many of these apps out there, why would someone build their own? Maybe OP is onto something though.
Could it be that the creative process and challenge of building an app to solve a personal problem is just as good a treatment for depression as the app itself?
And there are so many of these apps out there, why would someone build their own? Maybe OP is onto something though.
Could it be that the creative process and challenge of building an app to solve a personal problem is just as good a treatment for depression as the app itself?
Generally speaking, it's good to have goals, a purpose, and a creative outlet.
Tangentially, I know that personally, something I struggle with, that has caused me frustration, is that I often feel like in my work life, I am forced to work on projects that I think are basically bullshit. I'm being asked to implement a feature that I believe is useless, or to work on a project that my intuition tells me will get axed later, have very little or no impact, or is based on terrible design decisions and just painful to work on. That leaves me feeling powerless and unmotivated, and has pushed me into a depression in the past.
As a programmer, having a side project can be a nice way to get what you can't always get at work, which is a sense of self-determination. A sense of working on something you actually believe in, something you can actually take the time to design cleanly and properly. Side projects can be a much better creative outlet than work. I hope that I can eventually find a job where I get to work on something I truly, really believe in. That's been very difficult to find so far though.
Tangentially, I know that personally, something I struggle with, that has caused me frustration, is that I often feel like in my work life, I am forced to work on projects that I think are basically bullshit. I'm being asked to implement a feature that I believe is useless, or to work on a project that my intuition tells me will get axed later, have very little or no impact, or is based on terrible design decisions and just painful to work on. That leaves me feeling powerless and unmotivated, and has pushed me into a depression in the past.
As a programmer, having a side project can be a nice way to get what you can't always get at work, which is a sense of self-determination. A sense of working on something you actually believe in, something you can actually take the time to design cleanly and properly. Side projects can be a much better creative outlet than work. I hope that I can eventually find a job where I get to work on something I truly, really believe in. That's been very difficult to find so far though.
It's part of it, but I only built the app after realizing the method (which is based on something called The Sedona Method) really worked for me. I just found it super tedious to do on paper and over time added more features that help to get into a mental state where emotional release is possible.
I'm now building a business around the app and that path has multiple emotional pitfalls per day. I tried to do this a few times before and always succumbed to my fear, guilt and worthlessnes.
This time, I'm using the app on a daily basis and snap out of my funk (usually) in a matter of minutes.
So I'd say the app is helping me feel better which is allowing me to keep building it - not the other way around.
I'm now building a business around the app and that path has multiple emotional pitfalls per day. I tried to do this a few times before and always succumbed to my fear, guilt and worthlessnes.
This time, I'm using the app on a daily basis and snap out of my funk (usually) in a matter of minutes.
So I'd say the app is helping me feel better which is allowing me to keep building it - not the other way around.
Eli, you are probably the first in the long line of Show HN's, product hunts, and indie hackers that I read every day that I read and wanted to scream "Shut up and take my money!".
Seriously, if you think you are not ready to introduce paid plans, start with donation link. Or kickstarter.
The challenging part with apps like these is that people expect quick fixes ("I will read that book, do that exercise and everything will fall in place"). No, it is a process, like coming to gym and lifting a dumbbell one time will not make you jacked. I think it is important to emphasize that.
Few items of feedback (1) Add email - not necessarily your personal email - but something like [email protected], twitter is not everyone's cup of tea (2) I think you mispelled "tedious" as "tedius" in at least one place. (3) you narration is very authentic and I definitely connected to it, but most people tend to connect to the monologue with more expression and intonation in it. If you transition to a serious business with it - consider hiring a female sound actor - no sexism here - but research shows that people of both sexes have a stronger response to female voices, there is a reason that all voice assistants speak with female voice by default.
Seriously, if you think you are not ready to introduce paid plans, start with donation link. Or kickstarter.
The challenging part with apps like these is that people expect quick fixes ("I will read that book, do that exercise and everything will fall in place"). No, it is a process, like coming to gym and lifting a dumbbell one time will not make you jacked. I think it is important to emphasize that.
Few items of feedback (1) Add email - not necessarily your personal email - but something like [email protected], twitter is not everyone's cup of tea (2) I think you mispelled "tedious" as "tedius" in at least one place. (3) you narration is very authentic and I definitely connected to it, but most people tend to connect to the monologue with more expression and intonation in it. If you transition to a serious business with it - consider hiring a female sound actor - no sexism here - but research shows that people of both sexes have a stronger response to female voices, there is a reason that all voice assistants speak with female voice by default.
That is the best feedback I've gotten so far, thank you thank you thank you!
I definitely am planning to make a serious business out of it. I started out with a coaching + app mix when the app was a lot more bare and didn't really work without me walking people through it.
I'll get the email, marketing site and the rest of it in order, you're right, Twitter isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I am focused on buildign an audience there because my style of writing seems to work well in short bursts).
I'm not going to hire a female actress to do the narration because I want my soul to be in the app. I might hire a speach coach though to get this to a higher level, so thanks for for pointing it out. I've actually gotten way better feedback on the narration given that I'm not a native English speaker and this is my first time recording my voice for anything.
Again, thanks so much. I'm now going to use this motivation that you granted me to go get this thing in front of many more people!
I definitely am planning to make a serious business out of it. I started out with a coaching + app mix when the app was a lot more bare and didn't really work without me walking people through it.
I'll get the email, marketing site and the rest of it in order, you're right, Twitter isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I am focused on buildign an audience there because my style of writing seems to work well in short bursts).
I'm not going to hire a female actress to do the narration because I want my soul to be in the app. I might hire a speach coach though to get this to a higher level, so thanks for for pointing it out. I've actually gotten way better feedback on the narration given that I'm not a native English speaker and this is my first time recording my voice for anything.
Again, thanks so much. I'm now going to use this motivation that you granted me to go get this thing in front of many more people!
Also, kickstarter? Haven't considered that, but I'll see if this makes sense.
In addition to mynegation’s comments, I would say that if you’re trying to build a business out of this app, start charging now. Offer lifetime refunds if you need to to hush the inner critic, but nothing helps the same as serving people who are actually paying.
Absolutely. I already am charging a monthly fee for a simpler version of the app + coaching and was waiting for validation that the app works without my guidance to move to the next stage. Payment structure is TBD, but I really want to balance my need for sustainable income with removing barriers of entry for everyone. Likely going to charge more from those who can afford it and grant free licenses to those who can't.
Also: the Patreon model can be really great if your goal is to offer the service to everyone for free. That can even be something that happens when enough people donate a specific monthly amount.
I'll look into that. Feels a little too loose for me. I want people to only pay when they want to, but I also believe people value things more when they commit something to it. "Buy one for you, gift one to someone else" is a model I really like both for financials and for virality.
So many are just trying to sell you something. It's like if you went to visit your Psychiatrist and they tried to sell you a time-share on your way out of the office.
People deserve to be compensated for their work, obviously, but this is a space where people are looking to escape from being sold something or manipulated in some way.
If someone is building the app for themselves, it's based around actually helping and doesn't have some underlying agenda that it's trying to hide under the tablecloth.
Like a walk through the forest, the trees aren't reaching for your wallet when you turn around. The trees are just there to do some light photosynthesis before lunch, and then maybe make some pinecones that afternoon.
People deserve to be compensated for their work, obviously, but this is a space where people are looking to escape from being sold something or manipulated in some way.
If someone is building the app for themselves, it's based around actually helping and doesn't have some underlying agenda that it's trying to hide under the tablecloth.
Like a walk through the forest, the trees aren't reaching for your wallet when you turn around. The trees are just there to do some light photosynthesis before lunch, and then maybe make some pinecones that afternoon.
This is a really powerful comment. I am trying to create a sustainable income from this app so I can keep on doing what I love, and every marketing guru on the planet is trying to push me into charging as much as possible as early as possible. I have an intuitive resistance to that, but you put it in way better words than I could have.
I'm not sure how to fix this and still make a living out of it yet, but I'm going to keep looking.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I'm not sure how to fix this and still make a living out of it yet, but I'm going to keep looking.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Part of my job is analyzing quality metrics surrounding depression. Everyone is failing, and uncontrolled depression is an unseen pandemic. We are in rapid innovation phase.
Quality metrics surrounding depression? Can you elaborate?
Also, are you the right person to complain to about the quality of my depression? It is quite poor and I would like get a refund.
Also, are you the right person to complain to about the quality of my depression? It is quite poor and I would like get a refund.
"Quality metrics" is an industry term regarding hitting certain benchmarks of care in a provider's patient population to measure "quality" of care by a provider or group. Payers measure providers for various reasons using well-defined protocols.
An example of a depression protocol is depression remission:
(1) Was an index test performed in prior year to identify depression (2) Was a followup performed this year (3) Does the followup test indicate depression has gone into remission.
There are various other measures for depression.
An example of a depression protocol is depression remission:
(1) Was an index test performed in prior year to identify depression (2) Was a followup performed this year (3) Does the followup test indicate depression has gone into remission.
There are various other measures for depression.
The only thing I can currently measure in the app is the intensity of an emotional experience - before the process and after the process. I'm still compiling the stats, but I think the average reduction in intensity of the experience of e.g. apathy is about 40%.
I really like the idea of incorporating a standard depression symptoms test into the app and then taking another test at a later stage to see the longer term change. It still won't be conclusive proof, but it would help.
I really like the idea of incorporating a standard depression symptoms test into the app and then taking another test at a later stage to see the longer term change. It still won't be conclusive proof, but it would help.
I am frustrated that we feel the need to keep "innovating" when we already know how to fix depression. In no particular order: Physical activity, social participation, getting enough sunlight, and creative outlets.
The problem is those things are hard. And downloading an app on your phone is easy.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?) it is still true that you reap what you sow. I'm afraid all this "innovation" around mental health is just sowing the seeds for more people spending more time sitting inside, alone, not moving, staring at screens, consuming.
The problem is those things are hard. And downloading an app on your phone is easy.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?) it is still true that you reap what you sow. I'm afraid all this "innovation" around mental health is just sowing the seeds for more people spending more time sitting inside, alone, not moving, staring at screens, consuming.
You are absolutely right that these things are the true solution to not have depression. However, they don't really work when you are already in it though. It's like telling a drowning man to start practicing his strokes or someone falling out of a plane to invent a parachute.
Depression is a self sustaining problem. The depression prevents you from seeking social activities, taking care of your body and mind and being creative, This obviously makes the depression worse. Paradoxically, forcing yourself to do any of these activities makes the depression worse as well due to the internal resistance to get better.
We definitely do need innovation. We need something that works, is scalable, doesn't cost $1k per month in therapy fees and doesn't have any adverse side effects.
My current best guess about the future in this space is a combination of microdosing and supportive apps like mine.
Depression is a self sustaining problem. The depression prevents you from seeking social activities, taking care of your body and mind and being creative, This obviously makes the depression worse. Paradoxically, forcing yourself to do any of these activities makes the depression worse as well due to the internal resistance to get better.
We definitely do need innovation. We need something that works, is scalable, doesn't cost $1k per month in therapy fees and doesn't have any adverse side effects.
My current best guess about the future in this space is a combination of microdosing and supportive apps like mine.
To everyone berating this guy about 'not being very depressed':
My depression is not your depression, and your depression is not theirs. Please stop judging.
My depression is not your depression, and your depression is not theirs. Please stop judging.
Isn't telling people to stop judging at least as bossy?
People die of depression, there's good reason there would be emotion going against its perceived over-usage.
People die of depression, there's good reason there would be emotion going against its perceived over-usage.
While it can be trivializing to people who are truly depressed when the term is used superficially, you have to be careful not to assume that someones depression is superficial based on your perception. Just because someone isn't late stage clinically depressed doesn't mean they're not in some stage of that process.
I agree, thank you for pointing this out. I don't mean to take anything away from people putting in the effort and helping themselves. It's great. I just feel the term depression as a medical diagnosis is used a bit excessively.
To everyone but them, this comment is noise. Please reply to their comments, not at top-level.
It's the contrarian dynamic: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
(Your comment is arguably the third wave and mine the fourth...)
(Your comment is arguably the third wave and mine the fourth...)
It makes me sad when i read stories like that.
I feel depressed. Doctor - Take these pills.
I still feel sad. Doctor - Take more pills.
Medication cures symptoms of depression but cannot fix the underlying problems causing it.
Taking pill to feel happy again is a patchwork that will eventually burst catastrophically.
I feel depressed. Doctor - Take these pills.
I still feel sad. Doctor - Take more pills.
Medication cures symptoms of depression but cannot fix the underlying problems causing it.
Taking pill to feel happy again is a patchwork that will eventually burst catastrophically.
Nah, it's more of a cast or crutch or a wheelchair, gives you some space to start recovering. Or you might find that you need to rely on them for the rest of your life. Either way, it's better than nothing.
I am not saying that pills are bad.
Rather then, pill are not going to solve the root cause.
If your apendix is infected taking painkillers will mask the fact its going to bust and probably kill you.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't take painkillers while waiting for a surgeon to operate on you.
Maybe I should have been more precise in my original post.
Rather then, pill are not going to solve the root cause.
If your apendix is infected taking painkillers will mask the fact its going to bust and probably kill you.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't take painkillers while waiting for a surgeon to operate on you.
Maybe I should have been more precise in my original post.
Agreed. I've suffered from depression for so long and most psychiatrists I visited just told me to take some pills that made me feel numb and didn't fix the underlying issue.
Now I've been working with a therapist since January alongside with some pills and I feel so much better. Not only the depression symptoms are mostly gone, but I feel I know so much more about myself and now I can understand what made me feel like I did before.
Anyway, if you, dear reader, are suffering from depression, I recommend you to visit a therapist with an open mind.
Now I've been working with a therapist since January alongside with some pills and I feel so much better. Not only the depression symptoms are mostly gone, but I feel I know so much more about myself and now I can understand what made me feel like I did before.
Anyway, if you, dear reader, are suffering from depression, I recommend you to visit a therapist with an open mind.
> Anyway, if you, dear reader, are suffering from depression, I recommend you to visit a therapist with an open mind.
I would add on top of this, try out different therapists if current one is not working for you, rather than saying 'this is not working, i am done with therapy'.
I would add on top of this, try out different therapists if current one is not working for you, rather than saying 'this is not working, i am done with therapy'.
> Medication cures symptoms of depression but cannot fix the underlying problems causing it
This implies that there always is a root cause, which I don't think is the case. Very often there is, but sometimes there's just an imbalance.
This implies that there always is a root cause, which I don't think is the case. Very often there is, but sometimes there's just an imbalance.
> sometimes there's just an imbalance.
What does that mean? As far as I know, there has never been medical science to support this statement.
I understand drugs 'work' in the sense people's experience and emotions are altered -- that's beyond debate. But we don't know what it means in terms of "depression" or "happiness" or other promises they make.
I'll feel great if I spend my day high on cocaine but I am not going to claim I cured my depression while under the influence.
What does that mean? As far as I know, there has never been medical science to support this statement.
I understand drugs 'work' in the sense people's experience and emotions are altered -- that's beyond debate. But we don't know what it means in terms of "depression" or "happiness" or other promises they make.
I'll feel great if I spend my day high on cocaine but I am not going to claim I cured my depression while under the influence.
Jordan Peterson (yes, I know he’s got his problems) had a line in one of his recorded class sessions that has always stuck with me. I don’t have time to find the video on YouTube, but it was something along the lines of: If you’re dealing with someone who’s depressed and they’re really depressed, you should try giving them antidepressants because if they die you can’t help them.
The point being, it isn’t a cure, but it keeps you going until you can get therapy sessions or whatever else you need.
The point being, it isn’t a cure, but it keeps you going until you can get therapy sessions or whatever else you need.
> Medication cures symptoms of depression but cannot fix the underlying problems causing it.
Sometimes those underlying conditions are brain chemistry though. The pills work for a lot of people. My Bi Polar depression doesn't seem to stem from any trauma or anything. I've done therapy and it did nothing. I've tried exercise, it helps for a short period. I tried diet, seems to help a little. If also tried about 15 different medications before a found a combination that keeps my mood fairly stable.
I almost killed myself before I found the right combination of meds. Meds work for some people we shouldn't be so quick to discourage it.
Sometimes those underlying conditions are brain chemistry though. The pills work for a lot of people. My Bi Polar depression doesn't seem to stem from any trauma or anything. I've done therapy and it did nothing. I've tried exercise, it helps for a short period. I tried diet, seems to help a little. If also tried about 15 different medications before a found a combination that keeps my mood fairly stable.
I almost killed myself before I found the right combination of meds. Meds work for some people we shouldn't be so quick to discourage it.
There's a lot we don't undestand about mental illness, but I think the brain chemistry theory doesn't hold water anymore. Otherwise we would have been able to take a blood test and say - oh, your serotonin levels are out of wack.
I'm really happy you found a combination of meds that work for you, sounds like it was a long and rough road to get there. There's still things you can do to improve your condition beyond what the meds can do. I have some anecdotal evidence that the app helps people taking meds, but nothing conclusive yet.
I'm really happy you found a combination of meds that work for you, sounds like it was a long and rough road to get there. There's still things you can do to improve your condition beyond what the meds can do. I have some anecdotal evidence that the app helps people taking meds, but nothing conclusive yet.
Well, we don't know that we couldn't if we were able to easily take a blood test of the brain. I think there's two parts to the theory, the stricter interpretation that goes something like "depression is just the symptom of too little serotonin - which can be fixed by SSRIs" is quite weak. But the fact that brain chemistry affects mood, and in particular that increasing some chemicals can induce pleasant feelings is pretty robust - we have drugs like cocaine and heroin to thank for that insight. However translating that knowledge into meaningful treatments of depression is not straightforward as the body has a lot automatic control systems trying to keep things in balance.
So at one level we could claim that indeed depression is caused by "too low" serotonin/dopamine levels, as temporarily increasing them will take away the depression, but on the other hand this insight in itself doesn't provide us with a clear path for diagnosis and treatment, and it doesn't preclude that there's other things that's a root cause, such as thought patterns, neurological setup, etc.
So at one level we could claim that indeed depression is caused by "too low" serotonin/dopamine levels, as temporarily increasing them will take away the depression, but on the other hand this insight in itself doesn't provide us with a clear path for diagnosis and treatment, and it doesn't preclude that there's other things that's a root cause, such as thought patterns, neurological setup, etc.
That's a very thorough exploration of the topic, thanks. There definitely seems to be a two way street between chemistry and consciousness both affecting each other allowing us to tackle the problem of depression from both ends. I'm very excited about the result coming out of psychedelic research which seem to chemically trigger and stable improvement in thought patterns.
There's a difference between drugs "working" and drugs solving the problem.
One thing that I am cautious about is the biological guarantee that you will develop tolerance to the drug and will need ever more powerful drugs throughout your life to maintain the baseline of "ok".
I'm glad the medication helps, but it seems like exercise and diet (and other activities) are more sustainable in the long run even if they are not as dramatically effective.
Maybe it makes more sense to take medication on a short term basis to deal with crisis and focus on lifestyle changes for long term success.
One thing that I am cautious about is the biological guarantee that you will develop tolerance to the drug and will need ever more powerful drugs throughout your life to maintain the baseline of "ok".
I'm glad the medication helps, but it seems like exercise and diet (and other activities) are more sustainable in the long run even if they are not as dramatically effective.
Maybe it makes more sense to take medication on a short term basis to deal with crisis and focus on lifestyle changes for long term success.
I'm happy finding a mixture of medicine that seems to work for me and has been for a couple years now. It took me over 20 years to get to this point though. Most of this time was just me actually realizing a problem then taking a couple years to actually find a decent doctor.
The problem seems to be that we don't really understand enough about how to brain works and how these medication work with the brain. So many psych meds are like "we don't really know how this works, but we think it might do this".
I think that's why there so much trial and error with psych meds. Plus don't get me wrong, the wrong med can be devastating to certain people. I ended up in the ER a during my trials due to bad reactions.
I still try to exercise and watch my diet. I don't have any studies or anything but low carb seems to keep me more mentally stable.
The problem seems to be that we don't really understand enough about how to brain works and how these medication work with the brain. So many psych meds are like "we don't really know how this works, but we think it might do this".
I think that's why there so much trial and error with psych meds. Plus don't get me wrong, the wrong med can be devastating to certain people. I ended up in the ER a during my trials due to bad reactions.
I still try to exercise and watch my diet. I don't have any studies or anything but low carb seems to keep me more mentally stable.
Interesting to hear about low carbs, I've been moving in that direction because of family history of diabetes on both sides. I still eat some junk food with added sugar, I wonder if cutting out added sugar entirely would help.
The other thing that helps me the most is running, but sometimes I just fall out of the routine.
I agree with everything you wrote, especially about the way medications are dispensed. I did try a medication once and had a bad reaction, have not tried since then but I think about it often.
20 years is a long time to suffer.
The other thing that helps me the most is running, but sometimes I just fall out of the routine.
I agree with everything you wrote, especially about the way medications are dispensed. I did try a medication once and had a bad reaction, have not tried since then but I think about it often.
20 years is a long time to suffer.
Good to hear you got the right treatment. Bipolar famously doesn't respond to therapy, they're just going to keep being manic. People with schizophrenia aren't going to talk their delusions away, it will only feed the delusions. Drugs definitely have a purpose.
But the vast majority of people dealing with mental health issues are in the category of somewhat anxious or depressed with maybe a personality disorder thrown in. These are treatable with therapy, somewhat side effect free.
But the vast majority of people dealing with mental health issues are in the category of somewhat anxious or depressed with maybe a personality disorder thrown in. These are treatable with therapy, somewhat side effect free.
So much this! That's why I decided I needed to get off that train and start looking for other ways. It took a ffing decade to find something that finally worked, but I'm glad I started the journey.
Thanks for sharing.
I'll share one reaction I had — these sorts of things are normally narrated in professional, glossy, somewhat saccharine voices, and it was a fun and surprising moment of human connection to realize, hey, this is just some dude talking into his laptop mic! While I imagine you might consider investing in professional VO at some point, there's something really nice about the way it is now.
I wonder what it's like for you to hear your own voice asking these questions of you — is there any value in that specifically?
I'll share one reaction I had — these sorts of things are normally narrated in professional, glossy, somewhat saccharine voices, and it was a fun and surprising moment of human connection to realize, hey, this is just some dude talking into his laptop mic! While I imagine you might consider investing in professional VO at some point, there's something really nice about the way it is now.
I wonder what it's like for you to hear your own voice asking these questions of you — is there any value in that specifically?
I'm doing my damnest to get this out to as many people as I can and not worry about perfectionism that killed many of my projects in the past. I did use my laptop mic for the recording and I did get better gear but didn't get a chance to re-record the narration.
It's interesting to hear that the lo-finess is actually helpful. Yes, I'm just a dude (with a bit of an accent to boot!) :)
I usually use the app without my narration - I find it distracting. Most people using the app over the long term tend to turn it off to, and listen deeper to their inner guidance (which is the whole point - the app is helping you to become your own therapist, not me being yours).
It's interesting to hear that the lo-finess is actually helpful. Yes, I'm just a dude (with a bit of an accent to boot!) :)
I usually use the app without my narration - I find it distracting. Most people using the app over the long term tend to turn it off to, and listen deeper to their inner guidance (which is the whole point - the app is helping you to become your own therapist, not me being yours).
mild, flu-like symptoms. Just describes how I feel since february and I'm not sure, whether it's for a hidden Covid (business travelled to Spain, when they found their first case, around 2 weeks, before they closed down...) or the depressive mood-swings I had in the past.
Lack of sleep and stress can also manifest as flu-like symptoms for me. Finding a working sleep-wake rhythm has been really difficult since working at home full-time. I love the freedom of fully being able to schedule my work hours, but it also means that I now have full control and responsibility over the rest of my daily schedule, and maintaining a healthy schedule takes more effort than I'd have expected.
What really helped me is to go out and exercise in the morning, rather than lounge inside until I start work. I have more clarity during the day, which means I feel less compelled to work late to make up for my self-perceived lack of focus during the work day. And less work in the evening also means I fall asleep more easily, which has really been an issue for me in the past few months.
YMMV, of course.
What really helped me is to go out and exercise in the morning, rather than lounge inside until I start work. I have more clarity during the day, which means I feel less compelled to work late to make up for my self-perceived lack of focus during the work day. And less work in the evening also means I fall asleep more easily, which has really been an issue for me in the past few months.
YMMV, of course.
You might be able to schedule a meeting with a psychologist online due to covid. Could be a good idea.
Hope you feel better soon ;-)
Hope you feel better soon ;-)
The first and simplest thing you could do is head to the app, and work through the Apathy section. It should give you a better clue about what's going in your mind and make the difference between what you're body is doing (maybe fighting a virus) and what your mind is doing (fighting repressed emotions).
Also, ping me on Twitter @finereli. Let talk.
Also, ping me on Twitter @finereli. Let talk.
The blog seems down, but the page it linked to is still up: https://beta.wuju.app/
App is down now but the archived version works perfectly :
https://web.archive.org/web/20200911062544if_/https://beta.w...
not anymore, gotta be patient :)
down again... https://archive.is/JAd24 ... but the app is now down too.
The site is down _and_ IA is down (for me at least) at the moment as well. I feel like I hit a jackpot.
ironically I get a "The Internet Archive's sites are temporarily offline." message here
> I went to the doctor, told him I was feeling mild flu symptoms for a couple of months, he asked me a few questions, determined that I had depression [...]
Wait, what?
Wait, what?
Yes. Depression can result in a feeling of physical lethargy and general 'unwell feelings' such as headaches.
Depression has well-defined symptoms. A couple of questions from a professional can really reveal it. There is a survey even, which can you fill out and shows if you are likely to suffer from it.
Wow this app is quite neat. Basically it's like a catalogue of different emotions and mental states and it's got prompts that take you through them and help you to identify and focus on them and help you work through them in a very low-pressure way. Very nice!
The best thing I did for my mental health this last year was get the audio book of "The Untethered Soul." Interestingly enough, I found out about this book on HN last year. This is a fantastic book about spirituality that is really practical. I've listened to this book about 5 times all the way through and it never gets old.
The guy who wrote it is the real deal, not some random guru. The Surrender Experiment, his other book, is also good because it shows how he applied it all in his life to make him self a self-made tech multi-millionaire and to go through some pretty hard struggles and build a large spiritual community along the way.
The guy who wrote it is the real deal, not some random guru. The Surrender Experiment, his other book, is also good because it shows how he applied it all in his life to make him self a self-made tech multi-millionaire and to go through some pretty hard struggles and build a large spiritual community along the way.
Very nice. I did run into a lot of useless scrollbars though (on Firefox desktop), this was discussed earlier here on HN: [0]. I guess you are an Apple Safari user ;)
Oh and I may be dumb but it took me I while before I realized I had to check all the boxes, because I though: Yeah I'm in a quiet space, so I don't need my headphones.
Other than that, very nice job, worked for me, impressive. Will bookmark.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293421
Oh and I may be dumb but it took me I while before I realized I had to check all the boxes, because I though: Yeah I'm in a quiet space, so I don't need my headphones.
Other than that, very nice job, worked for me, impressive. Will bookmark.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293421
I just spent 5 minutes with the app, and had a revelation about my fear of failure and how it relates to my parents that I've never had before. Thanks for sharing this.
Warms my heart to hear that, I'm so happy it helped you!
Thanks! I think I got the server sorted out.
I've been meditating almost daily for several years, and I've read numerous books and tried many different methods. I found this app very helpful, and I'll probably incorporate it into my routine. The technique relates closely to the root of most, or maybe all, mindfulness practices, which revolve around feeling your emotions and their sensations in your body. At the same time, it is a very simple practice, not heavy on theory, that anyone can try immediately. Really, really excellent work--thank you for building and freely sharing this.
I don't want to disparage anyone, and I will take a look at the app when it's back up, but I'm not even sure what depression is anymore. Mild flu symptoms is not a phrase I'd used.
It's great that more people are talking about their mental health, and that it's becoming more acceptable to seek help. But the word "depression" has become so murky to me, I rarely know what people mean when they use it.
Maybe I just don't understand the word...
It's great that more people are talking about their mental health, and that it's becoming more acceptable to seek help. But the word "depression" has become so murky to me, I rarely know what people mean when they use it.
Maybe I just don't understand the word...
Stanford's Sapolsky does a pretty good job explaining what is and isn't. I recommend the full lecture, it's interesting stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
Here is a condensed, blog-post version, based on that Robert Sapolsky's lecture. https://www.scienceme.com/the-biology-of-depression.php
Sapolsky himself struggles with depression, which he claims is genetic, IIRC. Not that I know anything, but I was struck that someone with his knowledge and intellect seemed to have given up attempting to treat it. He maintained psychological defenses that made me wonder whether he'd received adequate care.
I'm not sure where I heard this, but likely it's one of the following podcasts, which are worthwhile.
Sam Harris #91 - The Biology of Good and Evil https://samharris.org/podcasts/91-biology-good-evil/ YT version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLWzMH8psFU
Peter Attia #51 – Robert Sapolsky, Ph.D.: The pervasive effect of stress – is it killing you? https://peterattiamd.com/robertsapolsky/
I'm not sure where I heard this, but likely it's one of the following podcasts, which are worthwhile.
Sam Harris #91 - The Biology of Good and Evil https://samharris.org/podcasts/91-biology-good-evil/ YT version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLWzMH8psFU
Peter Attia #51 – Robert Sapolsky, Ph.D.: The pervasive effect of stress – is it killing you? https://peterattiamd.com/robertsapolsky/
Thankyou, I'm watching it now.
I always assumed that 'depression' and other complex emotional states were very similar across different people and across time. In a sense, that we as a species were referencing a shared, common understanding of the word which is totally informed by our physiology.
Except now, I think what is most likely the case is that we use/learned to use words like depression in a context based fashion, like mapping a set of contextual behaviors to a word. The actual experience of depression is sort of non-existent. The usage of the word and the contexts in which it is applicable changes as society changes its interpretation of emotional health and the behaviors or mannerisms that go with it. I think how we use depression in popular culture isn't indicative of anything fixed, it depends on the zeitgeist in a way. I'm sure this is different from a clinical standpoint, I'm not at all qualified to comment on that. But then again, most people don't use it in clinical terms anyway. Still, I think this is distinctly different from 'sad', as in, the context is different for the two states.
The book 'How emotions are made' by Lisa Feldman Barrett might be interesting to you, it goes exactly into this sort of phenomenon.
Except now, I think what is most likely the case is that we use/learned to use words like depression in a context based fashion, like mapping a set of contextual behaviors to a word. The actual experience of depression is sort of non-existent. The usage of the word and the contexts in which it is applicable changes as society changes its interpretation of emotional health and the behaviors or mannerisms that go with it. I think how we use depression in popular culture isn't indicative of anything fixed, it depends on the zeitgeist in a way. I'm sure this is different from a clinical standpoint, I'm not at all qualified to comment on that. But then again, most people don't use it in clinical terms anyway. Still, I think this is distinctly different from 'sad', as in, the context is different for the two states.
The book 'How emotions are made' by Lisa Feldman Barrett might be interesting to you, it goes exactly into this sort of phenomenon.
It seems hard to well define it even for professionals, iirc it's clinically being assessed using tests like the Goldberg depression test.
A variety of colloquial uses for the term on top of that doesn't make it clearer, maybe there should be an introduction of newer, more specified terms for it.
Mental health (and emotional, generally) terms are inevitably murky.
You're not describing a concrete thing. Knowing if what you feel corresponds to what others feel when they use the same words runs straight into the heart of the "other minds problem." It's a philosophical pickle.
Meanwhile, on the academic, clinical or neurological side usage of terms changes over time. They also run into the same problem. There are broad ranges of symptoms to these things, whether they are physical-ish (like mild flue) or mental-ish (like apathy).
So, I suggest embracing ambiguity. You just can't one word that describes emotional states or conditions. This is true for a lot of things. Consider "anger." Seems relatively concrete. OTOH, we use it to describe a state of adrenaline fueled rage like you would feel in a fistfight. We use it to describe a long term attitude towards someone. My friend betrayed me 5 years ago. I'm still angry. You're not necessarily feeling the same thing.
Add an "-ish" to the end of these concepts. It takes a whole conversation to understand someone's depression (or other states) with any kind of precision. One word only gets you a part of the way.
You're not describing a concrete thing. Knowing if what you feel corresponds to what others feel when they use the same words runs straight into the heart of the "other minds problem." It's a philosophical pickle.
Meanwhile, on the academic, clinical or neurological side usage of terms changes over time. They also run into the same problem. There are broad ranges of symptoms to these things, whether they are physical-ish (like mild flue) or mental-ish (like apathy).
So, I suggest embracing ambiguity. You just can't one word that describes emotional states or conditions. This is true for a lot of things. Consider "anger." Seems relatively concrete. OTOH, we use it to describe a state of adrenaline fueled rage like you would feel in a fistfight. We use it to describe a long term attitude towards someone. My friend betrayed me 5 years ago. I'm still angry. You're not necessarily feeling the same thing.
Add an "-ish" to the end of these concepts. It takes a whole conversation to understand someone's depression (or other states) with any kind of precision. One word only gets you a part of the way.
Mental health is very complex, but I think it's a spectrum, with low-grade symptoms at one end, and manic episodes at the extreme other end.
I'm sure it varies a lot from person-to-person, but for me, I have a constant and profound feeling of sadness and futility, I often feel like crying, and occasionally consider ending my life (I almost fantacise about it, because I wouldn't have to feel this way any more).
One of my parents has manic depression, and a sibling also has clinical depression - I presume there is a genetic factor at play; I was brought up in a middle-class household with parents that loved me, and I seldom wanted for anything. Now, I'm a successful software architect with a wife, kids and side-business. I own my own home, I have 2 nice cars, and I have a high income. Yet I still feel that sadness, and often just don't see the point of living, or life at all, really.
Except for randoms on the internet, I've never told anyone about this. I've come close many times, but I guess the longer you keep a secret, the harder it is to let it out.
If anyone else is reading this, I'd enourage them not to be me, and to seek medical help. If you don't think you can speak to a doctor, I'd also recommend trying 5-HTP - I started 200mg 2x a day a few years back, and the change was incredible. It may have saved my life.
I'm sure it varies a lot from person-to-person, but for me, I have a constant and profound feeling of sadness and futility, I often feel like crying, and occasionally consider ending my life (I almost fantacise about it, because I wouldn't have to feel this way any more).
One of my parents has manic depression, and a sibling also has clinical depression - I presume there is a genetic factor at play; I was brought up in a middle-class household with parents that loved me, and I seldom wanted for anything. Now, I'm a successful software architect with a wife, kids and side-business. I own my own home, I have 2 nice cars, and I have a high income. Yet I still feel that sadness, and often just don't see the point of living, or life at all, really.
Except for randoms on the internet, I've never told anyone about this. I've come close many times, but I guess the longer you keep a secret, the harder it is to let it out.
If anyone else is reading this, I'd enourage them not to be me, and to seek medical help. If you don't think you can speak to a doctor, I'd also recommend trying 5-HTP - I started 200mg 2x a day a few years back, and the change was incredible. It may have saved my life.
Mental health is indeed very complex, and spans far, far more than just affective disorders. Unfortunately the advocacy/discussion around it begins and ends with affective disorders the vast majority of the time.
Even considering just that axis, I'm not sure how one would define a spectrum that has low-grade symptoms on one end and manic episodes on the other. If anything there is a spectrum of affective states ranging from severe depression to severe mania, with most people at most times clustered around the origin point - and even at that, you can't map it to a line with two ends because mixed states exist.
Speaking to your specific case, and also for anyone who might be in the same shoes: suicidal ideation isn't the sole purview of depression or even of mood disorders as a whole, and I really wish the conversation around mental health would expand enough for more people (both patients and healthcare providers) to actually tackle it properly. Besides that I don't think you need to encourage anyone "not to be [you]"; you've found something that works for you, which is more than can be said of the healthcare system sometimes.
Even considering just that axis, I'm not sure how one would define a spectrum that has low-grade symptoms on one end and manic episodes on the other. If anything there is a spectrum of affective states ranging from severe depression to severe mania, with most people at most times clustered around the origin point - and even at that, you can't map it to a line with two ends because mixed states exist.
Speaking to your specific case, and also for anyone who might be in the same shoes: suicidal ideation isn't the sole purview of depression or even of mood disorders as a whole, and I really wish the conversation around mental health would expand enough for more people (both patients and healthcare providers) to actually tackle it properly. Besides that I don't think you need to encourage anyone "not to be [you]"; you've found something that works for you, which is more than can be said of the healthcare system sometimes.
Anyone reading this should before they take 5-htp try and determine if they have low levels of dopamine as 5-htp helps elevate serotonin which you don't necessarily want to do if you have low dopamine. However, if someone responds well to 5-HTP it might make sense to seek out an SSRI medication
> determine if they have low levels of dopamine
How would you actually do that? Is there some kind of home test available?
How would you actually do that? Is there some kind of home test available?
Not yet. Medical science has progressed to where it's starting to become possible to investigate this in a clinical setting, so home tests aren't going to become available just yet. One will have to resign to doing what has been done previously which is to look at how a person lives their lives and inferrence from that. I'm not a doctor, but having a pronounced need for variety and change is somewhat indicative. Also, if someone intuitively seeks out dopaminergic foods and drinks that's an indicator also (dark chocolate, foods rich in tyrosine). It's not uncommon for a person that's low in dopamine to become noticably relaxed after a high-carbohydrate meal as that meal would elevate serotonin and when dopamine is low and serotonin is high you become chill. People low in dopamine tend to be addictive. Sugar-bugs, coffee-fiends, sometimes adrenaline-junkies.
Talk to a doctor - self-medication is a risky endeavour, especially where mental health is concerned.
Have you ever worked with a therapist? I would recommend it. In particular, while there may be a genetic component, don’t underestimate the impact of growing up with a severely depressed parent. You may be carrying more burdens from your childhood than you realize.
No, I haven't ever even told anyone. I've kept it a secret my whole life.
This sound like good advice, but I've kept it hidden so long I'm genuinely afraid that I'll have some kind of breakdown if I let it out.
This sound like good advice, but I've kept it hidden so long I'm genuinely afraid that I'll have some kind of breakdown if I let it out.
With regards to your fantasies that sounds like suicidal ideation and is a coping mechanism that I myself oftentimes use albeit not willfully
These days I pretty much skip over any "regular" voices talking about depression or anxiety, precisely because those words have become so murky in usage. It really doesn't help that they're the poster disorders (so to speak) of mental health.
I can relate. But doing so also means you tend to only pay attention to more extreme examples, and you can start to doubt the severity of your own situation (at least that was/is the case for me).
Unfortunately some of us are in fact the more extreme examples.
>but I'm not even sure what depression is anymore. Mild flu symptoms is not a phrase I'd used.
Well, physically expressed it can be just like a mild flu...
Well, physically expressed it can be just like a mild flu...
My take on depression is that it's an internal fight between an emotion (usually fear, anger or guilt) and a thought that says we shouldn't be feeling it (because there's no logical reason for it, etc.). The conflict gets so intense that the whole emotional system shuts down resulting in full on apathy, which is the cause of most of the symptoms of depression.
Apathy, in my case, felt like the flu. I didn't have energy, didn't want to do anything, felt weak and soulless.
This is not the official definition, but it's a workable description that also points to a solution - process the apathy and then the underlying emotions and the depression should lift. That's what the app I built helps with. But as usual, YMMV.
Apathy, in my case, felt like the flu. I didn't have energy, didn't want to do anything, felt weak and soulless.
This is not the official definition, but it's a workable description that also points to a solution - process the apathy and then the underlying emotions and the depression should lift. That's what the app I built helps with. But as usual, YMMV.
This isn't how he built it; it's why he built it. It doesn't describe what the app does at all, just its goal ("help you deal with emotions").
[deleted]
Website seems down. Have you ever heard of Quirk or Daylio? I use Daylio to track my daily moods and that also helps a lot...
I've used Daylio. For me, the problem with using it long-term is that the different moods are contextual to the overall stat you are in. Meaning, I could have a "rad" day when in a depressive state which simply meant I wasn't overburdened with depression. Meanwhile, when not in a depressed place an "okay" day might still be leaps and bounds better than any days that were lived through duringthe depression(s)
I'm glad I found this. I will come back to your blog and to the app. Thanks for sharing.
FYI please spell check!
Poor spelling makes things look less credible ("tedius", etc.)
Poor spelling makes things look less credible ("tedius", etc.)
Hey! I've spent a half hour using your app and it's great! I was feeling a bit tense, confused and unmotivated this morning and going through the technique with your app really made a difference. Thanks!
For those not in the know, this is based on what's sometimes called the Sedona Method. There's a popular book about it by Hale Dwoskin [0] and the questions (and phrasing) in this app are almost exactly the same (the self-questions are an important part of the technique).
I've been geeking out about psychological self-help for a long time and this is by far the simplest and most effective (especially in terms of the ratio between accessibility and effectiveness) method I've come around. The idea, to summarize it crudely, is that you can just let go of feelings. You're a layer cake of stuff and the more you take off the better things get. At first it sometimes feels like "ok, I've let go of this basic thing, but I'm no better off" (it's a bit like the situation you'd find yourself in if you started shoveling a landfill). The technique, apart from the basic insight that you can let go, provides troubleshooting and guidance that let's you get a lot of results from something that is so simple. One of the things that originally attracted me to it was the feeling I had that, whatever the mechanism behind my hangups is, it's simple, but with emergent behaviour, and this really satisfied that part of me, and has been otherwise very rewarding as well.
My favorite book on the topic is Letting Go by David R. Hawkins [1], which is also one of my favorite books of all time. I could sing praises for it for a long time; it's been a big deal for me. If I need a spiritual pick-me-up, that's the book. It's a really good instruction manual for your mind, feelings, emotions. If you think you might lack emotional intelligence, this book is a good place to start too.
If you feel like this method is working for you and you want to learn more, I recommend going back and forth between the two books. They have very different approaches on the same thing. I found that at different times I needed more of the one or the other.
In the app, I noticed that the voice-over "letting go might be new for you" kicks in every time you're going through a new emotion. Might be better if it was there only for the first time.
I think I'll be coming back to this app a lot. Thanks again! Are you considering open sourcing it?
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Sedona-Method-Happiness-Emotional-Wel... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-M-D-David-Hawkins/dp/14019...
For those not in the know, this is based on what's sometimes called the Sedona Method. There's a popular book about it by Hale Dwoskin [0] and the questions (and phrasing) in this app are almost exactly the same (the self-questions are an important part of the technique).
I've been geeking out about psychological self-help for a long time and this is by far the simplest and most effective (especially in terms of the ratio between accessibility and effectiveness) method I've come around. The idea, to summarize it crudely, is that you can just let go of feelings. You're a layer cake of stuff and the more you take off the better things get. At first it sometimes feels like "ok, I've let go of this basic thing, but I'm no better off" (it's a bit like the situation you'd find yourself in if you started shoveling a landfill). The technique, apart from the basic insight that you can let go, provides troubleshooting and guidance that let's you get a lot of results from something that is so simple. One of the things that originally attracted me to it was the feeling I had that, whatever the mechanism behind my hangups is, it's simple, but with emergent behaviour, and this really satisfied that part of me, and has been otherwise very rewarding as well.
My favorite book on the topic is Letting Go by David R. Hawkins [1], which is also one of my favorite books of all time. I could sing praises for it for a long time; it's been a big deal for me. If I need a spiritual pick-me-up, that's the book. It's a really good instruction manual for your mind, feelings, emotions. If you think you might lack emotional intelligence, this book is a good place to start too.
If you feel like this method is working for you and you want to learn more, I recommend going back and forth between the two books. They have very different approaches on the same thing. I found that at different times I needed more of the one or the other.
In the app, I noticed that the voice-over "letting go might be new for you" kicks in every time you're going through a new emotion. Might be better if it was there only for the first time.
I think I'll be coming back to this app a lot. Thanks again! Are you considering open sourcing it?
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Sedona-Method-Happiness-Emotional-Wel... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-M-D-David-Hawkins/dp/14019...
You're right (and I say so in the About section), it is based on the Sedona Method. I found the method to be quite tedious to do on paper and I couldn't focus long enough to do it in my head, which was the original reason I built the app.
However, the app works for people who don't know the method, haven't read the book, didn't watch the full DVD from 1992 and didn't attend the weeklong seminar. I think it could bring this to a much wider audience.
Thanks for the bug report, yes, there's a lot more I need to fix in it before hitting the big leagues.
I haven't considered open sourcing it because I want to make a living off it. But I will think about it. There's a more limited version, without narration or the deeper content, that I use for myself and I think I might open source that.
However, the app works for people who don't know the method, haven't read the book, didn't watch the full DVD from 1992 and didn't attend the weeklong seminar. I think it could bring this to a much wider audience.
Thanks for the bug report, yes, there's a lot more I need to fix in it before hitting the big leagues.
I haven't considered open sourcing it because I want to make a living off it. But I will think about it. There's a more limited version, without narration or the deeper content, that I use for myself and I think I might open source that.
I'm kind of confused. As a highly empathetic person you're offering a "solution"? I'd assume others have experiences other than your own and that might not be particularly applicable in their individual situations?
I apologize if I'm not getting this.
I apologize if I'm not getting this.
Well the site is down so we can't know for sure right now. However, I think the keyword is "my". There's nothing in the title claiming a cure for depression in general. And that's an impossible feat anyway.
Yes, I do think what I've built is the beginning of a solution applicable to many other people. Not that the wave is over, the site is back up and you can see for yourself.
Love the blog website. Clean, legible text. No fluff.
This app is based on 'The Sedona Method' which has helped me in the past, but treats symptoms. For more permanent change I would suggest REBT, which has helped me even more.
no https, doesn't render without js
seems like it's a gathering scheme...
seems like it's a gathering scheme...
The title reads like a satire, but the content is actually fully dystopic, as always.
Acceptance
Nice!
Your depression couldn't have been that bad if you could create an app against it. Regular therapy would probably have been more effective and less dangerous for others.
Depression does not make a person completely incapable in every way, at least not usually.
This comment comes off as belittling someone else's depression, and I'm afraid it might be very hurtful to the author.
This comment comes off as belittling someone else's depression, and I'm afraid it might be very hurtful to the author.
You know when you bang your elbow ('funny bone'), it bloody hurts like hell for a second or two, then it's gone. But if you just get a little thorn in you, or a splinter of metal maybe, it niggles away at you. My depression - possibly what some would call malaise in the past - is the latter. Suicidal ideation, for example, doesn't stop you working completely.
I've just got over a couple weeks of a viral infection (not Covid19 according to tests) and just felt yesterday -- oh wow, I actually feel happy. I've been intellectually 'happy' (by which I mean that on analysis there's nothing for me to be especially down about; at least something to take joy in) many times in the last few years (my depressive period) but very rarely have I felt physically in that state.
It's one thing to be alive, another to feel alive.
I've just got over a couple weeks of a viral infection (not Covid19 according to tests) and just felt yesterday -- oh wow, I actually feel happy. I've been intellectually 'happy' (by which I mean that on analysis there's nothing for me to be especially down about; at least something to take joy in) many times in the last few years (my depressive period) but very rarely have I felt physically in that state.
It's one thing to be alive, another to feel alive.
This is a really hurtful and dangerous line of thinking. Imagine if you went to a Doctor and they said "you came to me to fix the problem, therefore you must not be sick".
This implies to be depressed you MUST be the worst form of depressed, or nearly suicidal to be deserving of help.
This implies to be depressed you MUST be the worst form of depressed, or nearly suicidal to be deserving of help.
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I'm not hurt at all by this comment and it's true. I didn't create the app in the depths of my most intense depression episode (two months in bed, couldn't even get myself to watch a TV show). Medication helped me out of that. I've also actively working on methods to improve myself for about a decade and by the time I started working on the app about two years ago I was mostly stable with occasional bouts of depression and rage that lasted for a few days to a week.
The first version of the app took a couple of weeks to build and I was flying on a good streak at that point, but it's prevented me from spiraling down ever since.
I don't know if the app could have helped me in my deepest depressive state. I don't know if it can help other people in even deeper states. I think it might.
The first version of the app took a couple of weeks to build and I was flying on a good streak at that point, but it's prevented me from spiraling down ever since.
I don't know if the app could have helped me in my deepest depressive state. I don't know if it can help other people in even deeper states. I think it might.
If you managed to finish the app, you weren't very depressed.
Depression acts primarily on willpower. The bad feelings come as a consequence of not being able to get anything done.
Depression acts primarily on willpower. The bad feelings come as a consequence of not being able to get anything done.
> If you managed to finish the app, you weren't very depressed.
I disagree, as someone with experience in the matter. I think is fine to question whether OP's depression was a real major depressive episode or to what extent they were really depressed. However, the succinctness of your comment leads me to believe that it's more simplistic than anything and thus counterproductive while discussing depression. It's not always a matter of "but was it real depression, though?"
> Depression acts primarily on willpower.
Depression acts on everything and shouldn't be characterized so easily. That's exactly what happens in real life, where a statement like yours can instantly nullify the efforts of someone trying to tell you that, yes, they look normal, but something is wrong. To that, you'd likely reply, "but Jane, you don't look that depressed!"
Some people are able to keep operating on certain realms, which IMHO is the key to getting out of the rut; grasping whatever still motivates you, even if just a bit, to operate at 1% of your normal capacity and "power" on.
> The bad feelings come as a consequence of not being able to get anything done.
I repeat, not always and not for everyone as the causes for circumstantial and clinical depression are too many to count and so are the symptoms and the way they are externalized.
I disagree, as someone with experience in the matter. I think is fine to question whether OP's depression was a real major depressive episode or to what extent they were really depressed. However, the succinctness of your comment leads me to believe that it's more simplistic than anything and thus counterproductive while discussing depression. It's not always a matter of "but was it real depression, though?"
> Depression acts primarily on willpower.
Depression acts on everything and shouldn't be characterized so easily. That's exactly what happens in real life, where a statement like yours can instantly nullify the efforts of someone trying to tell you that, yes, they look normal, but something is wrong. To that, you'd likely reply, "but Jane, you don't look that depressed!"
Some people are able to keep operating on certain realms, which IMHO is the key to getting out of the rut; grasping whatever still motivates you, even if just a bit, to operate at 1% of your normal capacity and "power" on.
> The bad feelings come as a consequence of not being able to get anything done.
I repeat, not always and not for everyone as the causes for circumstantial and clinical depression are too many to count and so are the symptoms and the way they are externalized.
> Depression acts on everything and shouldn't be characterized so easily
^^ This. I've battled with depression since I was something like 7-10 years old, and it's just not as simple as the GP implies.
Depression affects different people to different degrees, and has different impacts - human beings are afterall very complex beasts.
Being depressed also doesn't necessarily mean that you feel that low all the time - or at least that those feelings aren't in the foreground. Some days, weeks or months are worse that others. It's absolutely always there, but sometimes I can have a streak of weeks where I feel like I'm winning, and it's only in the background.
I'd also add that people with depression cn be very good at hiding it, to the point where they can even be hiding it from themselves. Barring occasional random on the internet, like now, I haven't told a single real person about it for the 30-year (and counting term) of my depression. Despite growing up with a parent with manic depression, somehow I didn't even recognise the way I felt as depression until I was in my 20's.
^^ This. I've battled with depression since I was something like 7-10 years old, and it's just not as simple as the GP implies.
Depression affects different people to different degrees, and has different impacts - human beings are afterall very complex beasts.
Being depressed also doesn't necessarily mean that you feel that low all the time - or at least that those feelings aren't in the foreground. Some days, weeks or months are worse that others. It's absolutely always there, but sometimes I can have a streak of weeks where I feel like I'm winning, and it's only in the background.
I'd also add that people with depression cn be very good at hiding it, to the point where they can even be hiding it from themselves. Barring occasional random on the internet, like now, I haven't told a single real person about it for the 30-year (and counting term) of my depression. Despite growing up with a parent with manic depression, somehow I didn't even recognise the way I felt as depression until I was in my 20's.
Just curious, how did you find out that you were hiding your depression from yourself? (I assume you wrote from personal experience) Especially when other people tell you that they think you have depression?
Yes, I'm writing from personal experience. I'm pushing 40, and I've felt this way since I was a young kid. I think because it started so early, it was just the way things had always been. Probably as a kid I didn't have the emotional maturity to recognise what was happening either.
Nobody has ever told me they think I have depression - I'm very good at hiding it. My main coping mechanism, if you can call it that, was to bury my head in the sand and pretend everything was fine.
As for how I found out, it was very slowly, over a period of a few years, as I matured into an adult. Looking back I can see that my mental state deteriorated, likely due to stress caused by various life events and (physical) health issues, and everything kind of came to a head. At some point I couldn't bury my head in the sand and ignore it anymore and think "it's just me, I'm weird".
But even once deep down I recognised it as "depression", it was a long time before I'd even say in my head "I have depression". This was 15-20 years ago, and there was even more stigma around mental health then than there is now, and my shame was probably tempered by how one of my parents (with manic depression) had been viewed while I grew up. I also felt guilty - I had a wife, house, job, plenty of disposable income etc; how could I still feel like this when my life seemed so superficially perfect?
Even though I admit it to myself now, I doubt I'll ever tell anyone else, even my wife. Would anyone even believe me, believe that it was possible to hide such a thing my entire life? But now I'm rambling, I'll end it there :)
Nobody has ever told me they think I have depression - I'm very good at hiding it. My main coping mechanism, if you can call it that, was to bury my head in the sand and pretend everything was fine.
As for how I found out, it was very slowly, over a period of a few years, as I matured into an adult. Looking back I can see that my mental state deteriorated, likely due to stress caused by various life events and (physical) health issues, and everything kind of came to a head. At some point I couldn't bury my head in the sand and ignore it anymore and think "it's just me, I'm weird".
But even once deep down I recognised it as "depression", it was a long time before I'd even say in my head "I have depression". This was 15-20 years ago, and there was even more stigma around mental health then than there is now, and my shame was probably tempered by how one of my parents (with manic depression) had been viewed while I grew up. I also felt guilty - I had a wife, house, job, plenty of disposable income etc; how could I still feel like this when my life seemed so superficially perfect?
Even though I admit it to myself now, I doubt I'll ever tell anyone else, even my wife. Would anyone even believe me, believe that it was possible to hide such a thing my entire life? But now I'm rambling, I'll end it there :)
No thank you for your rambling, it is for me (in my late 20's) an anecdote most valuable.
I asked because I don't consider myself remotely close to it, having good job (well until today my last day) and a good safety net. But in the past few days, my SO & a friend have told me that I should maybe seek therapy. My first instinct is to dismiss is and focus my time on betterment of myself through other means, but your anecdote made me think of the possibility that I might just be oblivious about it.
Unfortunately I live in a country where mental health is still a stigma and my insurance is gone with the work, but your experience at least nudge me towards trying to seek out professionals for it. (when I one day return to my homecountry where it isn't a stigma)
I asked because I don't consider myself remotely close to it, having good job (well until today my last day) and a good safety net. But in the past few days, my SO & a friend have told me that I should maybe seek therapy. My first instinct is to dismiss is and focus my time on betterment of myself through other means, but your anecdote made me think of the possibility that I might just be oblivious about it.
Unfortunately I live in a country where mental health is still a stigma and my insurance is gone with the work, but your experience at least nudge me towards trying to seek out professionals for it. (when I one day return to my homecountry where it isn't a stigma)
When I was (very) depressed I could get plenty done. I just couldn’t feel any reward for getting anything done. Of course, I couldn’t feel any reward for slacking off either. So I had the choice to either live in a world of ash or live in a world of ash and do something. Either way I felt (or more accurately didn’t feel) the same way. So it was an easy choice and no willpower was required to actually do stuff.
That's important to learn. When given the choice to feel nothing about either, you should choose something productive to do. People are much more likely to help you if you have a good past record and can maintain some benefits for them. It's an investment to help a depressed person for society and if you get stuck in the hole for longer, you are that unlikely to get any help.
This is an incredibly callous and sad way to think of the well-being of other human beings. Helping another person as they struggle with their mental health shouldn't be an investment, something you expect to extract value from later; you help someone through difficult times because you care about them and love them. It's something you should do out of the goodness of your heart.
Viewing all of your relationships as investments is selfish, hurtful, and will very likely result in a very lonely life for you
Viewing all of your relationships as investments is selfish, hurtful, and will very likely result in a very lonely life for you
I don't. It's an observation.
This isn't necessarily true, depression can have quite different faces. ICD-10 differentiates between
* major depressions with a single episode (F32 - this is probably what you had in mind)
* recurrent episodes of various degrees (F33 - this includes seasonal affective disorders, i.e. recurring winter blues)
* Persistant mood disorders like dysthymia, where your baseline mood is dysphoric (F34.1)
* major depressions with a single episode (F32 - this is probably what you had in mind)
* recurrent episodes of various degrees (F33 - this includes seasonal affective disorders, i.e. recurring winter blues)
* Persistant mood disorders like dysthymia, where your baseline mood is dysphoric (F34.1)
I didn't think someone could apply 'no true scotsman' to something so broad as depression.
> If you managed to finish the app, you weren't very depressed.
Well it sounds like the app fixed their depression then!
Well it sounds like the app fixed their depression then!
Like many conditions depression expresses it self in diverse ways. It certainly is not the same for everyone. Furthermore, you should avoid diagnosing the severity of psychological conditions by reading their blog posts.
I couldn't read the blog post.
I was summarising my own experience (20 years and counting), that of people I have observed with diagnoses of depression, and my reading in the subject.
I was summarising my own experience (20 years and counting), that of people I have observed with diagnoses of depression, and my reading in the subject.
I don't think your observation is off in general. But applied to a particular person to judge their condition it is not helpful. More so when we don't know circumstances of the depressed developer.
That’s rather presumptive.
Are you a doctor?
I get the feeling that the author is in a situation a lot of people in HN could relate to: A situation where Performance Anxiety, Fear of missing out (FOMO), Fear of being left behind, distraction and ADHD all gets entangled in ones work , personal life & choice of how to spend their time. It seems like if these things are left unchecked for a long time, the things can lead to depression, or other form of negative mental state.
My question is how do you solve/amend this? Reading comments from similar themed post on HN it seems like a lot of people are aware of themselves having one or more of the above. Some seems to have accepted it, others seek help from therapist. But a lot of people also seems to feel like they don't want to "lose" the feel of guilt, stress, bad self image that follow performance anxiety and fear of missing out because they take their negative emotional reaction as a virtue that pushes them to improvement in stressful times (myself being one of them).
It seems like vast majority defaults to "work harder, smarter" as a solution, and only later in life when "working harder" have a diminished (sense) of return, or when they hit a wall, change their course of action.