The benefits of note-taking by hand(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The benefits of note-taking by hand
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200910-the-benefits-of-note-taking-by-hand
139 comments
Used to fill a large size moleskin a month by hand, and for this sample size of one, the aid to recall from deciding what to write and processing it back out is remarkable.
So, of course, I’ve tried the Remarkable pad, as well as apps like Goodnotes on iPad that try to support handwriting while also supporting search. Goodnotes suited my needs better, as the Remarkable pad latency was too high, though I did prefer the feel of writing. Apple materials research needs to get their glass and pencil closer to this.
However, for recall, I find there’s something about the physicality of a paper notebook that gives the facts a place to live.
With real x, y, and z dimensions in space, perhaps paper notebooks offer a fine grained version of the “memory palace” method of storing facts for in-memory browsing and recall.
Digital notebooks as well as digital books on Kindle lack the physical depth of the relevant page. It seems likely a visual “depth” indicator would assist recall of information in e-books. Unclear how that would work in digital notepads unless they had a fixed quantity of “pages”.
Aside from this loss of physical memory mapping, iOS 14’s handwriting to text is compelling. One gets to write notes out by hand, exercising that pathway, but what ends up on the page is real text. Haven’t played with this long enough to have any opinion on whether this transformation defeats recall.
So, of course, I’ve tried the Remarkable pad, as well as apps like Goodnotes on iPad that try to support handwriting while also supporting search. Goodnotes suited my needs better, as the Remarkable pad latency was too high, though I did prefer the feel of writing. Apple materials research needs to get their glass and pencil closer to this.
However, for recall, I find there’s something about the physicality of a paper notebook that gives the facts a place to live.
With real x, y, and z dimensions in space, perhaps paper notebooks offer a fine grained version of the “memory palace” method of storing facts for in-memory browsing and recall.
Digital notebooks as well as digital books on Kindle lack the physical depth of the relevant page. It seems likely a visual “depth” indicator would assist recall of information in e-books. Unclear how that would work in digital notepads unless they had a fixed quantity of “pages”.
Aside from this loss of physical memory mapping, iOS 14’s handwriting to text is compelling. One gets to write notes out by hand, exercising that pathway, but what ends up on the page is real text. Haven’t played with this long enough to have any opinion on whether this transformation defeats recall.
> However, for recall, I find there’s something about the physicality of a paper notebook that gives the facts a place to live.
I think that's correct. On 'Moonwalking with Einstein', the author mentions that placing a memory somewhere will help. Like, listening to podcasts while you walk around, and stuff like that. Maybe because you use different physical notebooks, your brain remembers better
Like, I used to listen to podcasts while driving to my GFs town, or driving home. I remember way more what I listened while driving, than while in my bed. In fact, for a few things, I remember where I was when X thing was being discussed.
I think that's correct. On 'Moonwalking with Einstein', the author mentions that placing a memory somewhere will help. Like, listening to podcasts while you walk around, and stuff like that. Maybe because you use different physical notebooks, your brain remembers better
Like, I used to listen to podcasts while driving to my GFs town, or driving home. I remember way more what I listened while driving, than while in my bed. In fact, for a few things, I remember where I was when X thing was being discussed.
I have an iPad + Pencil and a Remarkable 2 is on the way.
The iPad writing experience can be greatly improved with a matte screen protector that has a paper-like finish.
The iPad writing experience can be greatly improved with a matte screen protector that has a paper-like finish.
Can’t you get a screen protector that makes it feel more like paper?
Yes, Moshi makes one that I have and like. It has the added benefit of adding some anti-glare to the iPad. The one I’ve heard the most praise for is called Paperlike: https://paperlike.com/
I have tried both the iPad Pro and MS surface pro 4. The latencies are the same, but the MS pens (by Wacom) are nicer, I find. They have a soft tip, which gives more friction. The screen is still glass-like though.
I can never find the source, but I'm certain I've seen a study that linked the tactile nature of books to stronger recall. Smell, texture, weight, cover art, all these things aid with placing the book in the context of your life which, supposedly, would help with recall.
If true, I can imagine with physical note books that roughly the same thing applies.
If true, I can imagine with physical note books that roughly the same thing applies.
Avid note-taker here. I agree with you in that the two mediums - (1) a note taking software where you type in things (2) writing notes on paper - have different benefits and use-cases.
In my case, I pretty much now know what kind goes where. For the "planning" kind - these are TODOs, movie and reading lists, project ideas, project subtasks -they go into a tool like Notion, or Google Keep if they are very simple transient lists. What I need here are: the ability to search, modify in place (not strike-throughs), and access on any device (so this s/w typically is cloud-enabled). The last aspect is needed because I need a way to accommodate ad-hoc ideas into a larger pre-existing plan, when I am travelling and I just have my phone, or a different laptop.
When I am reading a paper, or watching a lecture, I strongly prefer handwritten notes. I have experimented with standard notebooks, moleskins, having a "two-level" system: one notebook for quick notes, and another one for well-formed versions of notes from the first one, and finally, taking notes on loose foolscaps and adding them to a folder. The last one has stuck, mostly because I don't have to worry about "wasting" pages with ill-formed notes; I can choose not to add it to the folder. Also I can change organization at a later date. For this category of notes, I am looking for: the handwriting experience, the ability to arbitrarily format and color things (very helpful for technical material that need diagrams).
PS: the article links to some ways of structuring notes, which seem interesting.
In my case, I pretty much now know what kind goes where. For the "planning" kind - these are TODOs, movie and reading lists, project ideas, project subtasks -they go into a tool like Notion, or Google Keep if they are very simple transient lists. What I need here are: the ability to search, modify in place (not strike-throughs), and access on any device (so this s/w typically is cloud-enabled). The last aspect is needed because I need a way to accommodate ad-hoc ideas into a larger pre-existing plan, when I am travelling and I just have my phone, or a different laptop.
When I am reading a paper, or watching a lecture, I strongly prefer handwritten notes. I have experimented with standard notebooks, moleskins, having a "two-level" system: one notebook for quick notes, and another one for well-formed versions of notes from the first one, and finally, taking notes on loose foolscaps and adding them to a folder. The last one has stuck, mostly because I don't have to worry about "wasting" pages with ill-formed notes; I can choose not to add it to the folder. Also I can change organization at a later date. For this category of notes, I am looking for: the handwriting experience, the ability to arbitrarily format and color things (very helpful for technical material that need diagrams).
PS: the article links to some ways of structuring notes, which seem interesting.
There's another aspect to note taking under some circumstances. That is doing writeups of events, interviews, etc. (I often write for publications.)
There are a few different approaches.
1. The traditional one where you take fast handwritten notes in whatever semi-shorthand scrawl you use. If you're used to doing this you can usually capture enough close to verbatim to write a story.
2. The same thing with typing. This has a couple of advantages. It's mostly faster and I can form the core of a story pretty quickly with some cutting and pasting.
3. Record and take more limited notes (and optionally use one of the AI services to transcribe). This will typically give you the best accuracy but, because you find yourself having to refer back to the original audio and just have to deal with more material, it takes more time.
There are a few different approaches.
1. The traditional one where you take fast handwritten notes in whatever semi-shorthand scrawl you use. If you're used to doing this you can usually capture enough close to verbatim to write a story.
2. The same thing with typing. This has a couple of advantages. It's mostly faster and I can form the core of a story pretty quickly with some cutting and pasting.
3. Record and take more limited notes (and optionally use one of the AI services to transcribe). This will typically give you the best accuracy but, because you find yourself having to refer back to the original audio and just have to deal with more material, it takes more time.
I think I'm in general agreement with you. I spent quite a while trying out different note taking apps. Super simple ones like iA and Bear, over to things like org mode. Eventually I just settled on pencil and paper and I've been really happy with that for a few years now.
If I need to write something to stash, as you say, it's usually for other people as well when at work. There I have no choice, it's either the wiki or a google doc and I'll polish up my hand written notes and diagrams. On the rare occasion I want to write something to keep for myself it'll either be some sort of markdown document on my drive, or a draft post on my blog if it 's more general musings. Usually I'll hand write notes in a meeting, that way I can leave the laptop at my desk (pre-covid), and then I'll write up a more coherent document later on if needed.
Pencil and paper is just great, I can do whatever I want, I can rub it out and start again, and the semi-permanance makes me care slightly less about it being perfect. I can't move the notes onto another page unless I re-write them, so sometimes I do if I really need to and otherwise I just move on.
I did end up spending out on some pencils that feel nice to use, but it's a tiny expense compared to subscriptions for many of the note apps out there.
If I need to write something to stash, as you say, it's usually for other people as well when at work. There I have no choice, it's either the wiki or a google doc and I'll polish up my hand written notes and diagrams. On the rare occasion I want to write something to keep for myself it'll either be some sort of markdown document on my drive, or a draft post on my blog if it 's more general musings. Usually I'll hand write notes in a meeting, that way I can leave the laptop at my desk (pre-covid), and then I'll write up a more coherent document later on if needed.
Pencil and paper is just great, I can do whatever I want, I can rub it out and start again, and the semi-permanance makes me care slightly less about it being perfect. I can't move the notes onto another page unless I re-write them, so sometimes I do if I really need to and otherwise I just move on.
I did end up spending out on some pencils that feel nice to use, but it's a tiny expense compared to subscriptions for many of the note apps out there.
> Meetings are a great candidate for handwriting notes -- and then discarding. You and I know that most meeting notes are throwaways.
I hate handwriting meeting notes! The only way they become useful is if they're saved and searchable (to refer back to weeks or months later), and since they're only sometimes useful, taking the extra time to transcribe is annoying. I can also type faster than I can (legibly) handwrite. So it makes more sense for me to skip the extra step.
Aside, I actually find the metadata (who, when, and broad topics) is what I'm usually looking for. Anything immediate gets on my to-do list, or becomes a ticket, or is part of a bigger project I'm actively working on anyway.
About the only thing I hand write anymore is actually my to-do list. I've tried dozens of apps and other methods, but always give up after a while. I use a 4x6 sticky note pad, and the killer feature is it gets full every couple days. This forces me to tear it off and start over, re-writing anything still active. After doing this with the same items for long enough, I either have to do them or admit they're not important anymore (or important enough) and drop them.
Physically crossing stuff off and throwing away the old sticky notes is kind of cathartic.
I hate handwriting meeting notes! The only way they become useful is if they're saved and searchable (to refer back to weeks or months later), and since they're only sometimes useful, taking the extra time to transcribe is annoying. I can also type faster than I can (legibly) handwrite. So it makes more sense for me to skip the extra step.
Aside, I actually find the metadata (who, when, and broad topics) is what I'm usually looking for. Anything immediate gets on my to-do list, or becomes a ticket, or is part of a bigger project I'm actively working on anyway.
About the only thing I hand write anymore is actually my to-do list. I've tried dozens of apps and other methods, but always give up after a while. I use a 4x6 sticky note pad, and the killer feature is it gets full every couple days. This forces me to tear it off and start over, re-writing anything still active. After doing this with the same items for long enough, I either have to do them or admit they're not important anymore (or important enough) and drop them.
Physically crossing stuff off and throwing away the old sticky notes is kind of cathartic.
I hear you. The practicability of handwriting meeting notes does depend on a few assumptions being true, i.e. improved retention of the meeting would obviate the need to retrieve notes in the first place (not always true, but in my case, often true), and that if you needed to retrieve those notes, you could (again, depends).
Me personally, I never transcribe my handwritten notes -- that would be too much work. But I do keep them in an unorganized pile (they're just loose sheets). If I ever needed to retrieve a note, I'll rifle through the pile and I can usually find what I need in 1-2 minutes (I don't attend THAT many meetings). It's not the most organized approach, but it's lightweight and it works for me. Paper isn't exactly unsearchable, merely less searchable than digital. (After all human civilization did exist before computers :)
But typing up meeting notes in software works fine and has its advantages, especially if there's a need to share them or to follow-up on them.
Me personally, I never transcribe my handwritten notes -- that would be too much work. But I do keep them in an unorganized pile (they're just loose sheets). If I ever needed to retrieve a note, I'll rifle through the pile and I can usually find what I need in 1-2 minutes (I don't attend THAT many meetings). It's not the most organized approach, but it's lightweight and it works for me. Paper isn't exactly unsearchable, merely less searchable than digital. (After all human civilization did exist before computers :)
But typing up meeting notes in software works fine and has its advantages, especially if there's a need to share them or to follow-up on them.
I'm hoping my ReMarkable 2 pre-order will help me to do potentially both, although imperfect I think the physical act of note taking by hand seems like something I should do more of.
I've been a multi-decade notebook user and and recently been using an iPad to take notes.
Just the default Apple notes app recognizes my cursive well enough to make my notes searchable and I don't feel any slower than with a traditional pen.
It's a nicer experience than I'd been expecting, TBH.
Just the default Apple notes app recognizes my cursive well enough to make my notes searchable and I don't feel any slower than with a traditional pen.
It's a nicer experience than I'd been expecting, TBH.
Note-taking in general, whether on paper or digitally, is pretty bad at improving retention [0]. There are far better techniques for furthering that goal, if that's the target; most obviously, active recall testing & distributed practice. Practically, most people use spaced repetition software like Anki [1] for that.
[0] see table on page 45 in https://pcl.sitehost.iu.edu/rgoldsto/courses/dunloskyimprovi...
[1] https://apps.ankiweb.net/
[0] see table on page 45 in https://pcl.sitehost.iu.edu/rgoldsto/courses/dunloskyimprovi...
[1] https://apps.ankiweb.net/
Good point, but I would say "pretty bad" is relative in my opinion. I think of it as something like this:
Mental notes < written notes < SRS < repeated exposure + emotional connection.
Specifically around retention (and only retention), taking notes doesn't get you everything, but it gets you something.
(I do feel some of us put undue focus on taking notes at the expense of understanding the world through empirical means, but that's another discussion. I'm focusing solely on retention here.).
Active recall testing and distributed practice are great ideas. No disagreement there. (the Ebbinghaus curve is well known)
(also, thanks for the link to the publication -- those are interesting results that describe aggregate outcomes for the population studied, but there's usually variation in individual outcomes, and in self-selected groups like this one, a different subset of techniques may dominate)
To your point about Anki specifically, I'm a language learner and in my experience, flashcard-style SRS can help retention for atomic types of knowledge, but I find as I get to intermediate levels of a language, the utility of flashcards declines precipitously -- because one is called upon to synthesize structures rather than just words.
So far I haven't found an easy way to encode structures into flashcards (clozes etc are too simplistic)... furthermore, language learning is complicated by the need to acquire a "feeling" for the context of how certain words are used. It's a kind of tacit knowledge that sometimes defies simple flashcard-type encodings. You can encode context through narrative, but then your flashcards become too unwieldy.
I've found writing and speaking (with feedback) in small chunks over a long period of time to be much better at creating the "neurocircuitry" necessary for retention. Again, I wouldn't say flashcard SRS are bad at improving retention (I use them), but like taking notes, even if they don't get you all the way there, they get you somewhere.
Mental notes < written notes < SRS < repeated exposure + emotional connection.
Specifically around retention (and only retention), taking notes doesn't get you everything, but it gets you something.
(I do feel some of us put undue focus on taking notes at the expense of understanding the world through empirical means, but that's another discussion. I'm focusing solely on retention here.).
Active recall testing and distributed practice are great ideas. No disagreement there. (the Ebbinghaus curve is well known)
(also, thanks for the link to the publication -- those are interesting results that describe aggregate outcomes for the population studied, but there's usually variation in individual outcomes, and in self-selected groups like this one, a different subset of techniques may dominate)
To your point about Anki specifically, I'm a language learner and in my experience, flashcard-style SRS can help retention for atomic types of knowledge, but I find as I get to intermediate levels of a language, the utility of flashcards declines precipitously -- because one is called upon to synthesize structures rather than just words.
So far I haven't found an easy way to encode structures into flashcards (clozes etc are too simplistic)... furthermore, language learning is complicated by the need to acquire a "feeling" for the context of how certain words are used. It's a kind of tacit knowledge that sometimes defies simple flashcard-type encodings. You can encode context through narrative, but then your flashcards become too unwieldy.
I've found writing and speaking (with feedback) in small chunks over a long period of time to be much better at creating the "neurocircuitry" necessary for retention. Again, I wouldn't say flashcard SRS are bad at improving retention (I use them), but like taking notes, even if they don't get you all the way there, they get you somewhere.
I feel that at some point you need to be chunking flashcards in a way that reflects your evolving level of competency. This is an extra amount of effort and this is something I'm not sure I've seen any research or even much discussion about, so I don't know how effective it might be or whether it's worth the extra time. That said, after surveying all the blog posts, research and articles I could find, I don't think it's something that's really been explored for flashcards. A certain set of static rules have solidified to which most people adhere and they seem diametrically opposed to the idea of building a lattice of deeper, conceptual knowledge. Do flashcards really need to be simple and atomic? Do they need to be answerable in a second or two? Do they need to be easily parsed so they can be instantly answered? I think there's a lot of dogma there that needs to be reconsidered.
I've seen some interesting approaches around flashcards for mathematical concepts applied to sets of mathematical problems. I've experimented with the idea where a flashcard might ask me about algorithms in a way that challenges me to apply a specific algorithm to solve a problem or think about its properties and how they affect where/when they should be used, and I feel it's more useful then your average "vocab"-like flashcard.
I've seen some interesting approaches around flashcards for mathematical concepts applied to sets of mathematical problems. I've experimented with the idea where a flashcard might ask me about algorithms in a way that challenges me to apply a specific algorithm to solve a problem or think about its properties and how they affect where/when they should be used, and I feel it's more useful then your average "vocab"-like flashcard.
If you google around, you'll find many descriptions of knowledge domains where flashcards either don't work or aren't efficient.
My layman's take is that flashcards are based on the idea of forcing retrieval through a trigger. It seems to me that atomicity is an inherent assumption, as well as independence, and that each flashcard maps to a finite set of deterministic answers. Feelings or a sense of things aren't as easily encoded. Tabular/graph relationships aren't as easily encoded either, and likewise sequences of decision trees aren't easily encoded. One can presumably design a chained sequence of cards complete with decision trees, but at this point flashcards end up being an unwieldy paradigm.
Fortunately one doesn't need limit oneself to flashcards. There are other methods like the method of loci etc. that work great for say, sequenced knowledge, like speeches or lyrics to a song, areas in which flashcards aren't the most natural fit.
To me however, memory is but one tool out of many for understanding something. I personally tend not to focus on memory itself too much. For the kind of stuff I'm interested in, memory is an outcome actually doing stuff, getting thing wrong, and then internalizing. In language learning, the memory that comes from embarrassment from making faux pas is both more quickly assimilated and retained longer than via SRS. I still remember mistakes made years ago even though they only happened once or twice.
My layman's take is that flashcards are based on the idea of forcing retrieval through a trigger. It seems to me that atomicity is an inherent assumption, as well as independence, and that each flashcard maps to a finite set of deterministic answers. Feelings or a sense of things aren't as easily encoded. Tabular/graph relationships aren't as easily encoded either, and likewise sequences of decision trees aren't easily encoded. One can presumably design a chained sequence of cards complete with decision trees, but at this point flashcards end up being an unwieldy paradigm.
Fortunately one doesn't need limit oneself to flashcards. There are other methods like the method of loci etc. that work great for say, sequenced knowledge, like speeches or lyrics to a song, areas in which flashcards aren't the most natural fit.
To me however, memory is but one tool out of many for understanding something. I personally tend not to focus on memory itself too much. For the kind of stuff I'm interested in, memory is an outcome actually doing stuff, getting thing wrong, and then internalizing. In language learning, the memory that comes from embarrassment from making faux pas is both more quickly assimilated and retained longer than via SRS. I still remember mistakes made years ago even though they only happened once or twice.
that seems orthogonal to me:
spaced repetition of what?
of the notes I took in learning something
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I looked into solving this efficiency problem using OCRs and my attempts were a disaster. It's amazing to me that voice recognition is moving along much faster than handwriting recognition. You'd think the second problem was simpler. Possibly more time and effort has been put into the speech problem.
I think the "efficiency problem" isn't solved by optimizing text input, but by eliminating unrelated time wasters so you can invest time in what matters.
Voice recognition can be performed with simple algorithms on tiny processors on 1-bit data streams. There isn't a comparable system for handwriting.
Hello, yes, recent member of the HN note-taking crowd here. Throwaway meeting notes are exactly my use case. It helps that I do most of my thinking on paper anyway so I have a pen and pad handy at all times. For me it's all about focus. Writing is an activity that I enjoy doing independent of what I'm actually writing. Can't zone out if I'm taking notes which leaves me in a position to drop all of the many great insights I always have in every single meeting.
Have been doing that pretty much.
I use Typora for typed notes and Goodnotes/Notability for handwritten. Sometimes I even take screenshots of handwritten and attach them in Typora.
One can ask why multiple apps?
I really like Typora for its simplicity. Found Notabilty and Goodnotes macOS app really terrible :( Would love to hear thoughts of other folks.
I use Typora for typed notes and Goodnotes/Notability for handwritten. Sometimes I even take screenshots of handwritten and attach them in Typora.
One can ask why multiple apps?
I really like Typora for its simplicity. Found Notabilty and Goodnotes macOS app really terrible :( Would love to hear thoughts of other folks.
I've taken pictures of my pencil diagrams. Label the photo well and you can reference easily.
Enjoyed and agree with your comment.
One useful hybrid approach is to view typed note taking as rapid capture of a rough draft, which if disciplined should lead to selective re-drafting of sections that require more thorough commitment to memory.
One useful hybrid approach is to view typed note taking as rapid capture of a rough draft, which if disciplined should lead to selective re-drafting of sections that require more thorough commitment to memory.
I’ve slowly come to realise those two goals to note taking (after wasting a lot of time trying to find the one true solution).
So I now use a notebook and flashcards for bits I want to remember and org mode for anything searchable.
So I now use a notebook and flashcards for bits I want to remember and org mode for anything searchable.
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Is there some OCR software that can scan written notes and convert to searchable, digital text?
I use OneNote on Windows. It is able to search through my handwritten notes, even without converting it (visually) to text. So yes.
Edit: of course I write too sloppy for this to always work...
Edit: of course I write too sloppy for this to always work...
How are you taking the notes in the first place? Scan? Surface tablet?
Directly on the tablet
> Researchers have found that note-taking associated with keyboarding involves taking notes verbatim in a way that does not involve processing information, and so have called this “non-generative” note-taking.
From the linked paper:
> Taking notes on laptops rather than in longhand is increasingly common. Many researchers have suggested that laptop note taking is less effective than longhand note taking for learning. Prior studies have primarily focused on students’ capacity for multitasking and distraction when using laptops. The present research suggests that even when laptops are used solely to take notes, they may still be impairing learning because their use results in shallower processing. In three studies, we found that students who took notes on laptops performed worse on conceptual questions than students who took notes longhand. We show that whereas taking more notes can be beneficial, laptop note takers’ tendency to transcribe lectures verbatim rather than processing information and reframing it in their own words is detrimental to learning.
The mechanism here is probably that people are able to type faster, so typing lets them write down every word, whereas handwriting forces them to choose what to write down. The superior way of note taking by this logic is clearly typing on your phone.
But this has irrelevant for note taking as people on HN are likely to understand it: Writing down your ideas.
From the linked paper:
> Taking notes on laptops rather than in longhand is increasingly common. Many researchers have suggested that laptop note taking is less effective than longhand note taking for learning. Prior studies have primarily focused on students’ capacity for multitasking and distraction when using laptops. The present research suggests that even when laptops are used solely to take notes, they may still be impairing learning because their use results in shallower processing. In three studies, we found that students who took notes on laptops performed worse on conceptual questions than students who took notes longhand. We show that whereas taking more notes can be beneficial, laptop note takers’ tendency to transcribe lectures verbatim rather than processing information and reframing it in their own words is detrimental to learning.
The mechanism here is probably that people are able to type faster, so typing lets them write down every word, whereas handwriting forces them to choose what to write down. The superior way of note taking by this logic is clearly typing on your phone.
But this has irrelevant for note taking as people on HN are likely to understand it: Writing down your ideas.
Note taking by hand implies making your hand draw the right shapes in the right sequence (& "verifying" them by reading) so in effect more of your brain in involved in actual processing. This may have a larger effect than reframing in your own words? [Speculation as I rarely took notes. Even the process of note taking distracted me!]
There's a "Price is Right" effect too: more processing = more engagement with the material = better, right up until you can't keep up with the lecture and then it falls apart.
It's not just a function of the average conceptual speed of the lecture, either, it's also a function of how bursty it is, and both are relative to what you already know and modulated by the quality of the presentation.
Taped lectures are a game changer because you can 2x over the slow parts and dwell on the bursts.
It's not just a function of the average conceptual speed of the lecture, either, it's also a function of how bursty it is, and both are relative to what you already know and modulated by the quality of the presentation.
Taped lectures are a game changer because you can 2x over the slow parts and dwell on the bursts.
right up until you can't keep up with the lecture and then it falls apart
And that's been my experience as a math student. Professors of advanced math courses tend to write very quickly for brief bursts and then pause to explain what's going on. The definition or proof they describe can often be subtle enough that you don't have much of a chance to understand it unless you've had the opportunity to preview the lecture notes before class.
Tragically, not every professor provides lecture notes in advance, and some don't provide lecture notes at all. Then if you're taking notes by hand you're taking a big risk that you might pause to reflect and miss noting a crucial step in the proof, leaving yourself baffled by what you wrote later on.
And that's been my experience as a math student. Professors of advanced math courses tend to write very quickly for brief bursts and then pause to explain what's going on. The definition or proof they describe can often be subtle enough that you don't have much of a chance to understand it unless you've had the opportunity to preview the lecture notes before class.
Tragically, not every professor provides lecture notes in advance, and some don't provide lecture notes at all. Then if you're taking notes by hand you're taking a big risk that you might pause to reflect and miss noting a crucial step in the proof, leaving yourself baffled by what you wrote later on.
Actually, the same short-term memory and muscle memory that allow you to have an "output buffer" when typing works with hand writing. You can finish writing a word, maybe even a sentence, while thinking about something else.
If you look at the paper sheet, it is because you have to check you are still on the guideline.
However I believe that at uni, I would write a whole line without looking if I needed to (that's after about a decade of fast hand writing almost 8 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, though). That those lines had a tendency to go up or down was not a problem, because making a clean copy of those notes was part of my learning strategy.
If you look at the paper sheet, it is because you have to check you are still on the guideline.
However I believe that at uni, I would write a whole line without looking if I needed to (that's after about a decade of fast hand writing almost 8 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, though). That those lines had a tendency to go up or down was not a problem, because making a clean copy of those notes was part of my learning strategy.
There a couple aspects of other than time-taken that I think has a major impact on the ROI ratio. Note taking on a laptop is inherently restrictive in the sense that you are limited by the capability of your tools. So, there's less thought on what to note and how to note it. For example, I will reorganize sections of notes in a way that is more conducive to my though process. That, in and of itself, has added value to understanding and comprehension. I've created an abstracted experience which includes doubling down on the concepts I'm learning and creates more intimacy with the actual notes I'm taking. In addition, memories are stored in extremely complex ways that are dependent on our senses. The tactile experience on the formation of memory shouldn't be ignored. Personally, I take notes by and transfer to latex. This allows me to double down on considering the information and 'revising' my resources.
Exactly. This is where sketchnoting / graphic recording can be extremely beneficial. It's also fun and I'm far more likely to review handwritten notes that contain graphics organized in however manner I wish, versus a chunk of typed out near verbatim top to bottom text.
As you progress in visual note taking you can develop a shorthand, a library of icons you repeatedly use and can sketch out quickly.
As for a lot of studies, what sticks to me is they were all done on students.
In a sense, they take notes all day long so they are an interesting subject. On the other hand they are taking notes related to an external source, and not of stuff they are thinking by themselves or content anchored in a process other than passing a test.
I took notes by hand at school and take only digital notes now that I am working. While I respect the research done, I can’t help but feel that there’s something missing.
Intuitively, I can’t imagine that content that comes from my own brain that I am formatting into notes has a completely different retention rate depending on wether I type it or write it. Especially as I have no time pressure to think about what I’ll write.
Basically, would I remember this comment better if I wrote it on a post’it ? Id really like a study on this, and not students at school.
In a sense, they take notes all day long so they are an interesting subject. On the other hand they are taking notes related to an external source, and not of stuff they are thinking by themselves or content anchored in a process other than passing a test.
I took notes by hand at school and take only digital notes now that I am working. While I respect the research done, I can’t help but feel that there’s something missing.
Intuitively, I can’t imagine that content that comes from my own brain that I am formatting into notes has a completely different retention rate depending on wether I type it or write it. Especially as I have no time pressure to think about what I’ll write.
Basically, would I remember this comment better if I wrote it on a post’it ? Id really like a study on this, and not students at school.
I would also like to add that the notion that “because hand writing is more involved so you remember it better” doesn’t work for me. Hand writing is actually distracting because I don’t do it enough for it to be fluid so I focus more on the hand writing than what I’m thinking of and end up losing my train of thought. Typing on the other hand I’ve been doing since I was a kid ever since I became interested in computers and because it’s so natural and fluid I have an easier time putting thoughts down on paper and going down my train of thought.
Like you said, I think a better takeaway from this study is that you don’t remember what you don’t think about or engage with. I’m perfectly capable of not thinking about what I write and subsequently forgetting it just as much as this study claims only happens whe you type stuff out.
Like you said, I think a better takeaway from this study is that you don’t remember what you don’t think about or engage with. I’m perfectly capable of not thinking about what I write and subsequently forgetting it just as much as this study claims only happens whe you type stuff out.
I don't think it's only a matter of speed.
Of course it's only anecdotal evidence, but when I was studying at university I could register pretty much everything by hand (thanks to using a fountain pen. Those who wish to write fast for any reason should consider a fountain pen - with a medium or broad, relatively stiff nib) and still I find manual note taking much more effective than typing.
You still are doing lots of mental computations when you write by hand, even if you don't need to summarize.
Of course it's only anecdotal evidence, but when I was studying at university I could register pretty much everything by hand (thanks to using a fountain pen. Those who wish to write fast for any reason should consider a fountain pen - with a medium or broad, relatively stiff nib) and still I find manual note taking much more effective than typing.
You still are doing lots of mental computations when you write by hand, even if you don't need to summarize.
I am curious if there has been a comparison of hand written cursive note taking vs hand written block letter note taking.
When writing in cursive, the entire word affects how you write each letter, while in block letter writing each letter is independent. Keyboard typing is like block letter writing in that respect, and I suspect that might also be playing a role.
When writing in cursive, the entire word affects how you write each letter, while in block letter writing each letter is independent. Keyboard typing is like block letter writing in that respect, and I suspect that might also be playing a role.
It took a long time but I migrated my handwriting workflow over to a Remarkable tablet (v1, my v2 coming in a week or so).
It is quite good from a writing perspective. I very much loved the tactile experience of a good fountain pen and nib on robust heavy paper. Remarkable is not that, of course, but a worthy experience in its own right. I am using it at this moment for some creative technical design work.
It is less good from a reviewing and rereading perspective. Even at the finest line width I have to work a little harder to read back through my poor script- something I much less frequently found problematic on paper. And page turning and locating earlier notes in a 20-50 page document (an amount I easily produce weekly, sometimes daily) is much less ergonomic than with paper.
The recognition does not work with my writing, but I can see that improving and that feature becoming killer in the context of more structured document authoring on the Remarkable, like filling out a templated form with gestures or short letter/word notes. They are not far from that capability.
And on the whole I have gotten to a place where the ritual is satisfying and useful. Not perfect, but paper and pen, however enjoyable, were not perfect either.
I have also recently become aware of a product called Papyr, which has two features of interest- a larger writing surface, and live synchronization with other Papyr devices and with software on iPad or desktop. It may be able to be a useful shared whiteboard.
It is quite good from a writing perspective. I very much loved the tactile experience of a good fountain pen and nib on robust heavy paper. Remarkable is not that, of course, but a worthy experience in its own right. I am using it at this moment for some creative technical design work.
It is less good from a reviewing and rereading perspective. Even at the finest line width I have to work a little harder to read back through my poor script- something I much less frequently found problematic on paper. And page turning and locating earlier notes in a 20-50 page document (an amount I easily produce weekly, sometimes daily) is much less ergonomic than with paper.
The recognition does not work with my writing, but I can see that improving and that feature becoming killer in the context of more structured document authoring on the Remarkable, like filling out a templated form with gestures or short letter/word notes. They are not far from that capability.
And on the whole I have gotten to a place where the ritual is satisfying and useful. Not perfect, but paper and pen, however enjoyable, were not perfect either.
I have also recently become aware of a product called Papyr, which has two features of interest- a larger writing surface, and live synchronization with other Papyr devices and with software on iPad or desktop. It may be able to be a useful shared whiteboard.
> page turning and locating earlier notes in a 20-50 page document (an amount I easily produce weekly, sometimes daily) is much less ergonomic than with paper.
That's why I went with an iPad over Remarkable for note taking. I LOVE my kindle's e-ink display, but from what I saw Remarkable just doesn't let you zoom and pan through your notes and cross-reference with the same fluidity as a tablet, and I decided that was more important.
Hopefully they figure out how to get e-ink FPS up because I would love to have the best of both worlds.
That's why I went with an iPad over Remarkable for note taking. I LOVE my kindle's e-ink display, but from what I saw Remarkable just doesn't let you zoom and pan through your notes and cross-reference with the same fluidity as a tablet, and I decided that was more important.
Hopefully they figure out how to get e-ink FPS up because I would love to have the best of both worlds.
What iPad apps do you use for note taking?
GoodNotes and LiquidText for lectures and papers respectively. There is a significant amount of path dependence in those choices.
Youtube reviews are probably the best way to get a feel for the current competitive landscape (e.g. GoodNotes vs Notability, MarginNote vs LiquidText).
Youtube reviews are probably the best way to get a feel for the current competitive landscape (e.g. GoodNotes vs Notability, MarginNote vs LiquidText).
Our paths and final choices sound similar.
GoodNotes made a lot of right choices, and LiquidText is especially under-appreciated:
https://www.liquidtext.net/liquidtextadeeperdive
GoodNotes made a lot of right choices, and LiquidText is especially under-appreciated:
https://www.liquidtext.net/liquidtextadeeperdive
I've been using a 2 in 1 Linux laptop for similar use cases, but the software options aren't amazing.
How well does the iPad handle hand recognition when using a pen? Does it accidentally scroll down PDFs or lag when you are switching from pen to fingers to zoom or pan?
How well does the iPad handle hand recognition when using a pen? Does it accidentally scroll down PDFs or lag when you are switching from pen to fingers to zoom or pan?
The apple pen, touch recognition, palm rejection, and 120Hz + low latency are truly spectacular. I don't want to say flawless, but that's purely on principle, I can't think of a single screwup. Even my (employer's) macbook pro has a palm rejection failure about once a week, which is very good, but the ipad is better still. The base OS and websites have silky smooth scrolling, ditto for PDFs, even gnarly text book PDFs with scribbles everywhere. The pencil is super accurate, it has no problems hitting 1x1mm (or 2x2mm maybe) badges in LiquidText, and the size is perfect. It looks too big, but it's smaller than it looks. Apple did a good job earning their Apple Tax on this one.
You can get an iPad for $329 and a Pencil for another $100. There isn't much of an Apple tax in that at all. If you factor in the price of software - Procreate for $10 and GoodNotes for $8 - it's a pretty amazing value.
That's good to hear, I might have to swing it for an iPad and pencil.
Since you mentioned a 120 Hz display, I assume you’re talking about using the second generation Apple Pencil on an iPad Pro? A sibling comment pointed out the much cheaper price of the regular iPad (which only supports the first generation Apple Pencil) so I thought I should chime in to say that my experience with the first generation Pencil does not reflect yours. Writing is laggy and imprecise (I can write legibly at about half the size on paper), charging with a Lightning connector is extremely awkward, and it needs to be done almost daily because the battery drains continuously [1]. I‘m still a big fan of the iPad, but I gave up on the Pencil after two months and switched back to paper.
[1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8231431
[1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8231431
Apple Pencil 2 is definitely a big improvement on the first one, primarily because of the charging mechanism - the first one was always either out of battery or I couldn’t find it when I needed it, as charging it felt stupidly awkward and there’s no way to attach it to the iPad. The second one just attaches and charged magnetically so it’s always there and charged when I need it, making me much more likely to use it (and I do, all the time).
It does feel quicker and more accurate too though I wouldn’t say that’s a dealbreaker for the first gen (I also upgraded to a 12.9” iPad which I think makes a bigger difference for note taking etc, maybe because you end up writing a bit bigger than on paper so the extra space is useful?)
It does feel quicker and more accurate too though I wouldn’t say that’s a dealbreaker for the first gen (I also upgraded to a 12.9” iPad which I think makes a bigger difference for note taking etc, maybe because you end up writing a bit bigger than on paper so the extra space is useful?)
Yeah, I've heard that 1st gen Apple Pencil wasn't very good. I can't speak to that myself. I have an iPad Pro 2018 and an Apple Pencil gen2, it's my first iPad, and I love it.
Yes, this is also the sole reason why I'm not using e-ink displays yet.
> The recognition does not work with my writing, but I can see that improving and that feature becoming killer
Why not alter your handwriting to work better with the software? My first handwriting recognition experience was on a Palm Pilot using Graffiti. I got to be pretty fast with that and I think being forced to create better letter forms has benefited me greatly since then.
I too have a Remarkable V2 on the way but for now I'm using GoodNotes on an iPad and I also scan pages of my notes and stick them in Evernote. Both GoodNotes and Evernote give me almost perfect OCR.
Why not alter your handwriting to work better with the software? My first handwriting recognition experience was on a Palm Pilot using Graffiti. I got to be pretty fast with that and I think being forced to create better letter forms has benefited me greatly since then.
I too have a Remarkable V2 on the way but for now I'm using GoodNotes on an iPad and I also scan pages of my notes and stick them in Evernote. Both GoodNotes and Evernote give me almost perfect OCR.
I wonder what changes to effect size we might see between writing on paper and writing on a tablet.
13 years ago I bought a Tablet PC (Motion PC) with OneNote and I bought a portable shotgun mic by sony.
BEST THING EVER. I got to write with the pen (Non-touch screen) and the mic recorded the audio for my graduate classes. It would recognize my writing and the audio fairly decently and I was living the dream.
I could never get anyone else to use OneNote with a mic, and I was a Systems Librarian at a College and taught all incoming freshmen. They had laptops and OneNote and no one used it.
BEST THING EVER. I got to write with the pen (Non-touch screen) and the mic recorded the audio for my graduate classes. It would recognize my writing and the audio fairly decently and I was living the dream.
I could never get anyone else to use OneNote with a mic, and I was a Systems Librarian at a College and taught all incoming freshmen. They had laptops and OneNote and no one used it.
> Leonardo da Vinci wrote: “…the more minutely you describe, the more you will confuse the mind of the reader and the more you will remove him from knowledge of the thing described. Therefore it is necessary to make a drawing … as well as to describe …”
I take my notes with the computer or tablet. But, I think with a paper and a pencil in my hand.
For design sessions my team uses simplified UML diagrams to understand the flow of data. Just talking and taking notes feels incomplete and, literally, difficult to visualize.
So, I agree with the post that hand writing is important, and it allows for graphics and other enhancements.
I take my notes with the computer or tablet. But, I think with a paper and a pencil in my hand.
For design sessions my team uses simplified UML diagrams to understand the flow of data. Just talking and taking notes feels incomplete and, literally, difficult to visualize.
So, I agree with the post that hand writing is important, and it allows for graphics and other enhancements.
Maybe a controversial opinion here, but;
I think note taking is seriously overrated. Sure some disciplines have things you need to know by heart, and having your own notes can help with that. But I rather use my brain power and attention to interpret and integrate what I hear during a lecture. Then use the literature if I need to refresh anything. For some people I feel that learning have been exchanged with note taking.
I think note taking is seriously overrated. Sure some disciplines have things you need to know by heart, and having your own notes can help with that. But I rather use my brain power and attention to interpret and integrate what I hear during a lecture. Then use the literature if I need to refresh anything. For some people I feel that learning have been exchanged with note taking.
I agree. I used to fall asleep in classes taking notes. I ditched the notebook and started intensely focusing on the lecturer and trying to listen actively. Attention improved and comprehension skyrocketed. As long as what was covered was also found in printed material like a book, I was much better off.
It's n=1, but I didn't see any studies cited in the article either, just expert opinion and suggestions like the unweildly "Cornell method", which I have tried to use without success and never seen anyone else use.
It probably comes down to a lot of cognitive variation among people. In my experience, reviewing notes that I took during lecture has about zero productivity. They don't mean anything afterward, they just reflect a few bits and pieces that made it through eyes/ears, brain, and hand. I'd be better off with a stenographer's transcript or, you know, a book chapter I had read before hand.
It's n=1, but I didn't see any studies cited in the article either, just expert opinion and suggestions like the unweildly "Cornell method", which I have tried to use without success and never seen anyone else use.
It probably comes down to a lot of cognitive variation among people. In my experience, reviewing notes that I took during lecture has about zero productivity. They don't mean anything afterward, they just reflect a few bits and pieces that made it through eyes/ears, brain, and hand. I'd be better off with a stenographer's transcript or, you know, a book chapter I had read before hand.
I think the idea of taking notes itself comes from the idea that the information is hard to acquire in any form. And occasionally a teacher does deviate from the text and say something important that will only appear in notes, but this usually isn't the case.
What I have started doing recently for my own journaling is to voice record instead of writing. This puts the emphasis on the thought organization instead of the spatio-tactile-visuals of forming symbols. I record a few lines and then pause to think.
The recall of it is slow, but it's mostly info I am studying in the moment, and its verbalization makes me focus on getting it correct the first time instead of write and edit, write and edit.
What I have started doing recently for my own journaling is to voice record instead of writing. This puts the emphasis on the thought organization instead of the spatio-tactile-visuals of forming symbols. I record a few lines and then pause to think.
The recall of it is slow, but it's mostly info I am studying in the moment, and its verbalization makes me focus on getting it correct the first time instead of write and edit, write and edit.
I’m the exact opposite. I often use note taking as a way to stay engaged and attentive to what I’m listening to. My mind wanders too easily otherwise.
When I write notes these days it's only if whatever word was uttered isn't already on the slides or in some text, or of there is something I need to look up later. Too many times I hear some fact, or a date, or a deadline, and go "gee that's simple and clear, I'll remember that!" then I step out of the room and it's gone forever.
If you IQ is high enough, note taking is often not necessary unless the material is very detailed or complicated. working memory and long-term memory both positively correlated with IQ. In the high school i went to, the smartest kids in my class were able to get good grades on tests without taking notes.
Have to agree. I spent a lot of classes struggling to keep up because my handwriting was too slow and poor. Like others said, I discovered fountain pens helped but it was not a cure for the problem.
Felt like anytime there were hard demands to have good notes, I spent most of my effort on taking notes rather than actually doing anything that benefitted me like comprehending what was being taught. Situation improved in college when I was finally able to record and use a laptop but I still found maths to require a friend to utilize as a notetaker for lecture.
Felt like anytime there were hard demands to have good notes, I spent most of my effort on taking notes rather than actually doing anything that benefitted me like comprehending what was being taught. Situation improved in college when I was finally able to record and use a laptop but I still found maths to require a friend to utilize as a notetaker for lecture.
Agreed, trying to take notes that are actually valuable long term is a distraction for me. I take very sparse notes by hand, just the critical stuff: mostly names, dates, and anything I need to follow up on. Diagrams and doodles make up the rest.
It usually takes two days to fill up a notebook page. I'll review that page when it's full and make sure everything is either done, filed away, or on my calendar. Then toss the page in the recycling bin.
If detailed notes are valuable enough to keep long term, take minimal notes but record it. Later read any related written materials, then document it after you've understood it.
It usually takes two days to fill up a notebook page. I'll review that page when it's full and make sure everything is either done, filed away, or on my calendar. Then toss the page in the recycling bin.
If detailed notes are valuable enough to keep long term, take minimal notes but record it. Later read any related written materials, then document it after you've understood it.
Yeah. Listening to the lecture is usually hard enough. Notes will only split my attention.
I take extremely detailed hierarchical notes all day, using software similar to org mode. Enough that it isn't feasible to use handwriting. But when it comes to working out a particularly difficult problem, there's no substitute for pen and paper IMO. I'd really like for the two to be better integrated, but writing with a stylus doesn't feel good to me.
I took notes on an iPad Pro for a semester in college. It worked well and there were some advantages. Infinitely expanding pages, moving notes around, pages only exist when they’re necessary, etc.
But the thing that I missed most was the feel of pencil on paper. A stylus sliding around glass felt... bad and I was always distracted by it.
But the thing that I missed most was the feel of pencil on paper. A stylus sliding around glass felt... bad and I was always distracted by it.
> But the thing that I missed most was the feel of pencil on paper.
Has anyone tried Paperlike? I'm interested in the "feel" and how it affects display quality.
https://paperlike.com/
Has anyone tried Paperlike? I'm interested in the "feel" and how it affects display quality.
https://paperlike.com/
I have a cheap matte screen protector from Amazon on my iPad Pro, and it works fantastically. Completely changes the writing experience
I have the first iteration of it and it is very very nice in terms of feel but I found it impacted screen quality more than I could tolerate. I believe this has improved in later versions and I’m somewhat tempted to try one of the current ones. I was really torn when I took it off, it does feel like paper and it even feels nicer with your hands not just the pencil, at the time it really damaged colour accuracy and also made the screen look like it was composed of rainbow crystals, it had a tiny prism effect on every element of the matte surface.
Thanks for sharing your experience with it!
This could be aleviates by adding a special matte screen protector that gives pen and paper feel
I went back to fountain pen + Rhodia journal while waiting for the perfect digital device to solve this.
I have an iPad Pro but the pen on the glass just doesn't work for me. Yes, I've tried with screen protectors but the feel is still not as good, the screen experience is seriously degraded, and they chew your expensive pen away.
The Remarkable seems very limited and expensive for what it is.
I have an iPad Pro but the pen on the glass just doesn't work for me. Yes, I've tried with screen protectors but the feel is still not as good, the screen experience is seriously degraded, and they chew your expensive pen away.
The Remarkable seems very limited and expensive for what it is.
The tips of an Apple Pencil are an inexpensive consumable, for what it's worth.
That said, I've had the same experience, the iPad is lovely for sketching and calligraphy, but trying to write on it at a decent clip is an exercise in frustration.
That said, I've had the same experience, the iPad is lovely for sketching and calligraphy, but trying to write on it at a decent clip is an exercise in frustration.
People are shaped by the tools that they use. There are significant physical changes in the brain when writing is learned for the first time compared to someone who never has learned writing.
It’s possible this aspect can atrophy if physical writing is not practiced for long enough. And it’s probable relearning it will ‘reactivate’ so to speak those pathways.
As a bonus handwriting on paper is an excellent archival medium, if stored properly.
Hard real-time access and retrieval with guaranteed future and backwards compatibility. No power or maintenance requirements. Guaranteed versioning is possible, immutability, and no licensing or region issues. Also operable in extreme cold.
Really a great solution if you need any of those features.
It’s possible this aspect can atrophy if physical writing is not practiced for long enough. And it’s probable relearning it will ‘reactivate’ so to speak those pathways.
As a bonus handwriting on paper is an excellent archival medium, if stored properly.
Hard real-time access and retrieval with guaranteed future and backwards compatibility. No power or maintenance requirements. Guaranteed versioning is possible, immutability, and no licensing or region issues. Also operable in extreme cold.
Really a great solution if you need any of those features.
Wow, for 30 years I thought cursive was a fluffy, largely-useless style technique. Didn't know it had practical uses for writing faster.
Cursive can be faster, if you have a slanted desk, ideally can slant the paper a bit and that you use a fountain pen.
I'm convinced that it's impossible to properly learn most complex subjects from a lecture if you take notes on a laptop or (especially) don't take notes at all. What little knowledge managed to stick to my brain in school, I owe to taking copious handwritten notes, and then looking at them a few times later. You are _forced_ to understand, since you can't possibly write down everything, and the ease of capturing formulas and graphs is not to be underestimated either.
Speaking of which, it makes me wonder if the current aversion to taking handwritten notes people seem to have biases academic achievement towards some subjects where notes are generally not very useful (e.g. programming) and away from fundamental, formula- and graph-heavy stuff, e.g. physics and math, which you can hardly properly learn without notes at all.
Speaking of which, it makes me wonder if the current aversion to taking handwritten notes people seem to have biases academic achievement towards some subjects where notes are generally not very useful (e.g. programming) and away from fundamental, formula- and graph-heavy stuff, e.g. physics and math, which you can hardly properly learn without notes at all.
In my experience, the parts from math and physics that required a lot of note taking were things more related to memorization instead of understanding, like formulas. Which, to be fair, seems to be the most of it, but anyway, there's a big difference from memorizing and understanding.
I've found it completely useless to memorize all but the most fundamental formulas without understanding their derivation. If I just memorize a formula, it's gone 3-6 months later. I need to understand how it came about if I want to retain it long term.
I am reminded of one of the Arthurian legends - King Arthur was given a sword and a scabbard. The sword meant he could not be defeated in battle, but the scabbard prevented his mortal wounding. He prized the sword over the scabbard, and according to one legend left the scabbard behind to face his foe. He won the fight, but in doing so was indeed mortally wounded, and so met his end.
The sword is being able to remember, the scabbard to forget. It is the latter, the scabbard, to be able to forget, that is the more important. It is our filter for the reality we endure, and gives us both wisdom and comfort.
Wisdom, because it frees us from that which was unimportant; and comfort, because it unburdens us from those things which cause us pain.
The sword is being able to remember, the scabbard to forget. It is the latter, the scabbard, to be able to forget, that is the more important. It is our filter for the reality we endure, and gives us both wisdom and comfort.
Wisdom, because it frees us from that which was unimportant; and comfort, because it unburdens us from those things which cause us pain.
Would love to but my handwriting is awful. Don't know why. I write so cramped, perhaps I am holding the pen too hard. And my writing deteriorated over the years. Became almost illegible in university. Today my hand makes the least effort possible when I write. It is like it wants to drop the pen as soon as possible, but is forced to hold on by its conscious master. The keyboard is a bliss for me, it allows me to make structured notes effortlessly. But I still wish my relationship to handwriting was better.
> I write so cramped, perhaps I am holding the pen too hard. And my writing deteriorated over the years.
This was me until I discovered fountain pens and good paper. I used to write on cheap ballpoints and my hands would be throbbing after about 6 pages of notes (I was taking a class with lots of readings).
Fountain pens are a rabbit hole of their own, but if you have good paper and a pen with smooth flowing ink (doesn't have to be fountain, gel pens work great too) and a nib size that matches the size of your handwriting (mine is small so I prefer Fine nibs), writing becomes pleasurable.
Also I'm big on scribbling marginalia, but cheap hotel ballpoints, small margins and my own bad handwriting have always made it hard to make annotations (I often write things like "This is STUPID" but with cheap ballpoints I run out of room and have to squeeze words to the point of illegibility which leads to me giving up). I recently discovered Pilot Hi-Tec-C 0.3mm pens from Japan, and they've been a dream for scribbling more substantial thoughts in book margins.
P.s. arguing with the authors of nonfiction books in the margins is fun. I recommend it.
This was me until I discovered fountain pens and good paper. I used to write on cheap ballpoints and my hands would be throbbing after about 6 pages of notes (I was taking a class with lots of readings).
Fountain pens are a rabbit hole of their own, but if you have good paper and a pen with smooth flowing ink (doesn't have to be fountain, gel pens work great too) and a nib size that matches the size of your handwriting (mine is small so I prefer Fine nibs), writing becomes pleasurable.
Also I'm big on scribbling marginalia, but cheap hotel ballpoints, small margins and my own bad handwriting have always made it hard to make annotations (I often write things like "This is STUPID" but with cheap ballpoints I run out of room and have to squeeze words to the point of illegibility which leads to me giving up). I recently discovered Pilot Hi-Tec-C 0.3mm pens from Japan, and they've been a dream for scribbling more substantial thoughts in book margins.
P.s. arguing with the authors of nonfiction books in the margins is fun. I recommend it.
The reason your handwriting gets worse is because the more you type, the less you write. You’ve fallen out of practice, and the only key to nice handwriting is to keep practicing and keep writing.
Agreed.
When I was younger and writing regularly, I could scribble fast and it would still be relatively neat.
Now I type all day, the few occasions when I do write just end up in a mistake-ridden scrawl.
I find I need to relax my finger grip and slow down, almost like I'm back in junior school.
When I was younger and writing regularly, I could scribble fast and it would still be relatively neat.
Now I type all day, the few occasions when I do write just end up in a mistake-ridden scrawl.
I find I need to relax my finger grip and slow down, almost like I'm back in junior school.
Sorry, I've heard that bullshit excuse for years. I moved to typing because writing was so laborious for me. My handwriting is more or less the same as it was 10+ years ago at this point and it's equally slow and illegible on both hands.
My handwriting is horrendous, particularly by the end of an extended writing period. But taking notes, for me, was rarely about reading them. The act of writing helped me remember so much better (especially if I'm not writing a transcription, but a summary and examples). My math/CS notes were understandable, in general, in college due to the ability to use shorthand notations or to write things in clearly hierarchical forms (pseudocode, proofs, solving math problems) where the structure aided in interpreting if the handwriting failed.
As to improving handwriting, in particularly dull periods I'd pull out a pen and do alphabet practice. Literally just pages of writing out the alphabet over and over. Then words, practicing cursive specifically but it doesn't have to be. This got my short-form or unrushed handwriting quality to a point where it wasn't embarrassing and I liked writing letters to my girlfriend. Learn to have a looser grip on the pen or pencil (I had an iron grip which I picked up somewhere along the way which led to cramping and poorer handwriting).
As to improving handwriting, in particularly dull periods I'd pull out a pen and do alphabet practice. Literally just pages of writing out the alphabet over and over. Then words, practicing cursive specifically but it doesn't have to be. This got my short-form or unrushed handwriting quality to a point where it wasn't embarrassing and I liked writing letters to my girlfriend. Learn to have a looser grip on the pen or pencil (I had an iron grip which I picked up somewhere along the way which led to cramping and poorer handwriting).
You might want to try an ipad pro + pencil. Personally I like the lack of friction, I can zoom in and out as I write etc. My notes also end up much neater than on paper, particularly during math lectures and when writing proofs, when you always have a bunch of false starts and dead ends!
I also always had a personal hangup about highlighting or writing notes on books ("sacrilege!" :) ), it always felt like I would ruin the book for a future reader. So during a lecture, it's nice to have a PDF copy of the text book imported into the notes software, then I'll sometimes cut and paste diagrams from the book into my notes, or just write notes on the book itself, depending on the situation. It's also pretty nice to be able to take a pic of the board if a prof is going too fast for me, put it directly into the note, then just rewrite it when I get a chance later.
Personally I use notability, which I think is nice, but sometimes gives me problems with syncing and access to my notes when icloud has some bug. So I switch on the setting for backup the entire note to google drive (you can use any cloud storage), just so I can always get access to my notes. It's "only" happened two or three times in three years, but... I think it is an icloud issue, not a notability issue, but I feel like they should be able to architect it so that the local notes are still available in the event of an icloud issue, whereas what actually happens is the local notes disappear - hence the need for the separate cloud backup of the note files!
I also always had a personal hangup about highlighting or writing notes on books ("sacrilege!" :) ), it always felt like I would ruin the book for a future reader. So during a lecture, it's nice to have a PDF copy of the text book imported into the notes software, then I'll sometimes cut and paste diagrams from the book into my notes, or just write notes on the book itself, depending on the situation. It's also pretty nice to be able to take a pic of the board if a prof is going too fast for me, put it directly into the note, then just rewrite it when I get a chance later.
Personally I use notability, which I think is nice, but sometimes gives me problems with syncing and access to my notes when icloud has some bug. So I switch on the setting for backup the entire note to google drive (you can use any cloud storage), just so I can always get access to my notes. It's "only" happened two or three times in three years, but... I think it is an icloud issue, not a notability issue, but I feel like they should be able to architect it so that the local notes are still available in the event of an icloud issue, whereas what actually happens is the local notes disappear - hence the need for the separate cloud backup of the note files!
What you feel about their macOS app?
Would love to but my handwriting is awful. Don't know why.
I am often complemented on my note taking. My view is that longhand is superfluous. Try to write more briefly and to write in all caps. Use more features like bullets, outlines and spaces and a different color pen for drawings, comments, underlines, outlines, lines indicating relationships, etc. This dates back to when I was perhaps 8 I had a teacher who forced us to use a ruler to create double-underlines for all headings in a separate color. This was, in hindsight, an awesome formative influence.
About brevity, think about it like this: if a second language speaker or child can understand the gist of it, you're doing well.
I don't actually take notes very often. A few times per month at most by hand, and probably a few times per week digitally. Basically I only take notes when in creative mode (interrogating own brain, reading stimulating material, brainstorming with others) or making research notes (often market research or technology related).
I am often complemented on my note taking. My view is that longhand is superfluous. Try to write more briefly and to write in all caps. Use more features like bullets, outlines and spaces and a different color pen for drawings, comments, underlines, outlines, lines indicating relationships, etc. This dates back to when I was perhaps 8 I had a teacher who forced us to use a ruler to create double-underlines for all headings in a separate color. This was, in hindsight, an awesome formative influence.
About brevity, think about it like this: if a second language speaker or child can understand the gist of it, you're doing well.
I don't actually take notes very often. A few times per month at most by hand, and probably a few times per week digitally. Basically I only take notes when in creative mode (interrogating own brain, reading stimulating material, brainstorming with others) or making research notes (often market research or technology related).
If you're seriously motivated to improve your longhand, get a copy of Write Now: The Getty-Dubay Program for Handwriting Success and go through the exercise. My handwriting wasn't awful as a whole but certain letters and letter combinations were disastrously unreadable. I also wasn't fast enough. Whatever you learned in school was probably not optimized for legibility AND speed together.
https://handwritingsuccess.com/write-now/
https://handwritingsuccess.com/write-now/
Ever since the GTP-3 blog posts came out, every single article I read now makes me wonder- am I being fooled again into thinking a article was written by a human? Thanks u/adolos haha
Well, I disagree. I can't CTRL-F my paper notes, and I've got a ton of them. I need to digitize them, fortunately Google Lens can actually understand most of my scribbles, which is really impressive.
I do like sketching ideas on paper, can't do it as fast on a computer. I tried the Note 9 with its stylus, it's rather good, but the screen is too small.
I do like sketching ideas on paper, can't do it as fast on a computer. I tried the Note 9 with its stylus, it's rather good, but the screen is too small.
Try Livescribe. I've been using it for years & I can sort of CTRL-F (CMD-F) my notes. I usually export notes to people. I'm surprise more technologies like livescribe doesn't exist.
OMG, I can't believe I forgot about these smart pens! I remember reading about one ~15 years ago and thinking "who would ever need this?". And somehow I never came across them again, wow.
It might actually be a game changer for my notes/sketches!
Thank you!
It might actually be a game changer for my notes/sketches!
Thank you!
Read that and wondered why you would struggle with moving the cursor one character forward. Then realized that I live in Emacs and that you had meant something else;)
This is one of the advantages of macOS, all the familiar GUI shortcuts live on the command key.
Not unrelated: Readline/emacs shortcuts work almost everywhere, which is to say that Ctl-F is forward in this very text buffer.
Not that I use it, but I do use Ctl-A and Ctl-E a fair amount.
Not unrelated: Readline/emacs shortcuts work almost everywhere, which is to say that Ctl-F is forward in this very text buffer.
Not that I use it, but I do use Ctl-A and Ctl-E a fair amount.
Sometimes I just feel like I can't move the cursor forward at all. :)
Yeah I'm just a normie, and CTRL-F is search in seemingly most software :D
I have taken over 10K notes in last 9 years and this is what I do -- I take a lot of hand-written notes and then I type down everything -- I believe it reinforces everything for me as I do the latter after a few days.
And thank you all for sharing such insightful comments.
And thank you all for sharing such insightful comments.
Writing things down lets other parts of your brain know what’s going on. I reach for my notebook a dozen times a day. Often just writing my question down makes the answer obvious.
I must do it differently with a keyboard. I usually use bullet points for all note taking and I do process it, in fact have more time to process it and think about it because I spend less time drawing symbols. Must be a tough one to measure for a study.
Bought both Notability and Goodnotes this week; Their macOS apps (I feel) really terrible. How do you folks use across mac and iPad. (Multiplatform is a big thing which I feel missing in both apps). Any suggestion? Thanks.
Physical involvement is probably diffusing stimuli in many many parts of our brains. Because anything kinetic was extremely important to our lives. Probably creates symbolic memories coupled with musculoskeletal ones.
I like the combination of paper and fountain pen, a bit thicker than normal, feels so much better than using the iPad :)
WFH left me doing less note taking, though. As I just audio record the important meetings.
WFH left me doing less note taking, though. As I just audio record the important meetings.
What ever happened to mini digital notepads? They were terrible but must have since improved. I want a stylus for my phone, and I want instant access to blank page as soon as I pull it out.
The Remarkable and the Supernote seem to fill that role.
I started obsessively looking at them earlier this week, and my conclusion is that they're not ready for prime time yet. The Remarkable software team is facing heavy criticism. The Supernote team is lauded for their responsiveness, but they don't have warehouses in Europe. Both companies accept preorders, not actual orders.
The ideas and hardware are there, but the products still need a lot of refinement.
I started obsessively looking at them earlier this week, and my conclusion is that they're not ready for prime time yet. The Remarkable software team is facing heavy criticism. The Supernote team is lauded for their responsiveness, but they don't have warehouses in Europe. Both companies accept preorders, not actual orders.
The ideas and hardware are there, but the products still need a lot of refinement.
I take notes on an iPad using an Apple pencil. It seems to right balance between using the digital to organize and correct things and the cognitive benefits to handwriting.
Is the experience of using Apple Pencil with iPad very close to a real paper and pen? I’m tempted to get one myself.
I endeavoured when starting a new job last year to be totally digital - I use MS OneNote on a Surface Pro. The experience is very close to using a gel pen on paper for me. The handwriting recognition is remarkably good - I don't really write much but occasionally I'm searching for something and it finds my marginal notes. 20 years of almost exclusive keyboard writing has taken is toll on my already poor handwriting.
I know what you mean. My handwriting was always awful, even during school/university. But I think it pays off to actually take a few minutes a day to try to improve it. For me, I had to start writing a bit slower, to get used to the forms, and doing it correctly, and then, try to do them a bit faster over time
It's pretty close. The tactile sensation of writing against paper versus glass is different.
I do wish pencil could be attached to the ipad easily without having to buy a special case though as they always tend to separate in my household and having to go hunt the stylus down makes it a lot less useful.
I do wish pencil could be attached to the ipad easily without having to buy a special case though as they always tend to separate in my household and having to go hunt the stylus down makes it a lot less useful.
My typing is much faster than my handwriting, so if I am able to type I always opt for that. Slide changes when my notes for them are unfinished are really annoying.
If you believe the research, the slower speed of handwriting is a feature not a problem.
What about writing on a phone? I've been taking a lot of mobile notes and have found it to be a very convenient optimal point between slower, intentional writing vs digital format and accessibility.
you mean, typing/swiping on the phone? Also less useful for retention, I would say. It's only slower than typing on the computer because of the inconvenient keyboard size. But you are still just pressing buttons that are millimeters apart. While handwriting you have to actually make different shapes.
For me, optimal is to use something like OneNote, which you can use with a pen (iPad/Surface), and it recognizes what you handwrite
For me, optimal is to use something like OneNote, which you can use with a pen (iPad/Surface), and it recognizes what you handwrite
I like to write using pen and paper. It may be slower, but I tend to recollect the content much better instead of typed notes.
The article appears to conflate notetaking by hand versus notetaking on a keyboard with summarised notes versus verbatim notes.
There is a paradox here though, and I'm experiencing it myself as I review 10yrs of note books filled during the course of my PhD. I was hoping to find lots of forgotten treasures but I'm discovering more and more that anything I wrote down was also retained (more or less), of course anything not written down was lost to time. It's as if I may as well have been writing onto a ceramic tile with a drinking straw.
There is a paradox here though, and I'm experiencing it myself as I review 10yrs of note books filled during the course of my PhD. I was hoping to find lots of forgotten treasures but I'm discovering more and more that anything I wrote down was also retained (more or less), of course anything not written down was lost to time. It's as if I may as well have been writing onto a ceramic tile with a drinking straw.
personally I have a notebook and when learning new things or in meetings for building software. I write key things down. Just this alone allows me to remember more, recall things much later and provide structure for exploring and learning more. Plus old notebooks are kinda fun to skim through and look back on when updating a resume.
The last time I actually wrote something down I couldn't decipher my own handwriting so yeah about that...
This is why i got my self a remarkable tablet so i don’t have to deal with paper anymore
I recommend to use stone tablets...
This is going to get downvoted but note taking is yak shaving. Don't waste any time thinking about optimal note taking.
The year was 1970. Fred Flintstone time travelled to the future. Amazed at the efficiency of digital note-taking, he renounces hand-written notes. Fred Flintstone now uses his memory to remember actions that build things, not useless, easily searchable facts like fire is good.
From a retention/recall perspective, I think most people are enamored with finding the perfect note-taking method because we want to find the one method that optimizes both retention (memory) + recall (long term searchability) at the same time. It seems to me these two objectives are somewhat in competition.
(there's also comprehension and thinking but I see those as separate)
I think splitting up the two objectives makes more sense. Handwriting notes enhances memory formation, but is less optimized for searchability. Digital notes are great for long-term searchability, but are weaker for memory formation.
Why not have two systems instead of one? Just handwrite whatever you want to remember, and type whatever you want to stash away? It seems inefficient, but in multiobjective optimization we usually end up with Pareto optimality rather than a single point of optimality.
One might ask, how would I know a priori what to remember and what to stash? I personally prefer handwriting, so I'll usually go there first and if I need to stash it I'll retype it into Google Docs. That said, I'll hop on Google Docs first if it happens to be more convenient (like if I'm browsing and want to copy-and-paste something for long-term storage, or if I'm outdoors and all I have on me is my phone)
Meetings are a great candidate for handwriting notes -- and then discarding. You and I know that most meeting notes are throwaways. Despite that, I personally find that in complex multiparty meetings, I'm able to follow the flow better if I continuously take notes. Being able to remember who said what, and being able to summarize a meeting are all very valuable skills to have.
(p.s. with regard to memory, Socrates didn't even believe in writing -- he believed writing things down would weaken our memories in the long term. He believed that talking about things was a far superior way to form memories and to understand subjects deeply. He's not completely wrong about the role of discussion and disputation [emotional connection is a potent force in memory formation], but all the same I'm glad Plato didn't take to this thinking and actually wrote stuff down).