LibreOffice 7.1(wiki.documentfoundation.org)
wiki.documentfoundation.org
LibreOffice 7.1
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/7.1
36 comments
Cool. This is one of the pieces of Libre software that can work really well for showing "Free/Libre software _can_ be a viable tool".
I tried to make a presentation using LibreOffice (Impress). I just couldn't.
The UI is heavily cluttered yet key features like adjusting the font size of a bullet point weren't easily reachable, and attempting to fix that left the toolbars in a messed up state, with no clear way to "factory reset" only the Impress toolbars.
Overall, the UX feels like being stuck in a poorly thrown together version of Office 1995, where everything is technically there, but just somehow a little bit worse.
GIMP is another example of this pattern.
Examples of actually decent FOSS are Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape and Filezilla, although e.g. Thunderbird suffers from a lack of improvements, so it's still stuck in the 2000's when the rest of the world improved.
The UI is heavily cluttered yet key features like adjusting the font size of a bullet point weren't easily reachable, and attempting to fix that left the toolbars in a messed up state, with no clear way to "factory reset" only the Impress toolbars.
Overall, the UX feels like being stuck in a poorly thrown together version of Office 1995, where everything is technically there, but just somehow a little bit worse.
GIMP is another example of this pattern.
Examples of actually decent FOSS are Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape and Filezilla, although e.g. Thunderbird suffers from a lack of improvements, so it's still stuck in the 2000's when the rest of the world improved.
I'll have to disagree. I just threw this together in about a minute or two [0].
That being said, I am using it on Linux, so it follows my GTK theme. It also is a fairly up to date version, so it's possible the UX changed.
[0] http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp (Link is going to go dead at some point in the future, but I'll make sure it's up for a week or so at least.)
That being said, I am using it on Linux, so it follows my GTK theme. It also is a fairly up to date version, so it's possible the UX changed.
[0] http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp (Link is going to go dead at some point in the future, but I'll make sure it's up for a week or so at least.)
Of course it's possible to use it. It's not effective though. By "couldn't", I didn't mean "its not possible". I was saying "I couldn't bring myself to use this tool because the experience was so bad".
It's the difference between focusing on what to put in my presentation, and having to focus on fighting my tools.
For example, it's possible to change the brush size and hardness in GIMP, and you can even configure shortcuts to do it faster... but Photoshop's "Alt+RightMouse" quick-change mode is just an order of magnitude faster and nicer (https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45).
It feels like everything in most open source tools takes just a few extra clicks, just a little bit extra attention, just adds a little bit extra pain, that makes the overall experience incredibly frustrating. And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
It's the difference between focusing on what to put in my presentation, and having to focus on fighting my tools.
For example, it's possible to change the brush size and hardness in GIMP, and you can even configure shortcuts to do it faster... but Photoshop's "Alt+RightMouse" quick-change mode is just an order of magnitude faster and nicer (https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45).
It feels like everything in most open source tools takes just a few extra clicks, just a little bit extra attention, just adds a little bit extra pain, that makes the overall experience incredibly frustrating. And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
I've never used Impress before today, except once when I need to adjust some PDF's and I opened them in the wrong tool. I've only ever used Docs seriously.
Clearly the UI cannot be that bad.
Edit: Also, nothing I wanted was more than one click away.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with disliking a piece of software, but it does seem disingenuous to just flat out say it's bad.
Clearly the UI cannot be that bad.
Edit: Also, nothing I wanted was more than one click away.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with disliking a piece of software, but it does seem disingenuous to just flat out say it's bad.
Simple solution: pay for MS office instead.
> And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
show us an example of you being told to do this.
> And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
show us an example of you being told to do this.
Yeah. I paid subscription for that even though using linux...vm Windows. The fixed yourself is a common reply when complaining about the free tools.....though to be precise, usually it is polite and phrased as "...contribute to the project...". This is so common, it is very well understood among general public that is tech savvy but not at programmers level, no example need to be shown. A mere quick mention/reference is more than enough.
> and phrased as "...contribute to the project...".
Reasonable enough. You could pay them. I did.
> no example need to be shown
Nope, show me on LibreOffice's bug reports where they say that. You want stuff for free, but so many won't contribute, won't pay, expect first class service without giving anything in return.
Reasonable enough. You could pay them. I did.
> no example need to be shown
Nope, show me on LibreOffice's bug reports where they say that. You want stuff for free, but so many won't contribute, won't pay, expect first class service without giving anything in return.
Unfortunately, I'm running Linux for a long list of reasons, which limits my options (yes, Wine is an option, but I've tried that with Notepad++ and the result is a UX that's almost as bad as using LibreOffice/GIMP straight away.
Otherwise I'd have certainly gotten both MS Office and some older version of Photoshop.
Otherwise I'd have certainly gotten both MS Office and some older version of Photoshop.
Use virtualbox.
LibreOffice's UI is almost deliberately made incompatible with MS Office. The conspiracy theorist in me wants to audit the Foundation's financial statements [0] for payments from Microsoft akin to what Google is doing to Mozilla.
[0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers
[0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers
"MS Office implements the obvious, natural UI so anything deviating from that must be intentionally trying to be different at all costs"
Aye, that's the spirit (at least, pre-ribbon).
It's much more important though that compatibility with the leader's de facto standard is crucial for the underdog. Even in text ediors - compare [0] with [1].
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 (Emacs)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 (VS Code)
It's much more important though that compatibility with the leader's de facto standard is crucial for the underdog. Even in text ediors - compare [0] with [1].
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 (Emacs)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 (VS Code)
But their whole proposition is 'it's MS Office but free.' It's even in the name. I bet most people they try to sell to it's replacing MS Office. Having their own, slightly worse, version of the MS Office UI is bad for what they want to achieve.
And do they have the time, money, and research chops to be doing their own UI research, even if it was a good idea to be doing it?
And do they have the time, money, and research chops to be doing their own UI research, even if it was a good idea to be doing it?
I'm curious if anyone's used, or has a good handle on what the future is, of LibreOffice Online? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#LibreOffice_Online
In 2020, it feels positively archaic for me to edit office documents except in my browser and saved in the cloud, accessible anywhere.
Of course there's a bit of an inherent tension since there's really no such thing as a standardized open-source cloud to save to... which is why LibreOffice Online is "provide-your-own-filesystem".
But putting all the craziest ideas together in one jumble... has anyone ever seriously proposed something like distributed hash table cloud storage, extremely redundant, that was perhaps financed by a blockchain cryptocurrency operating on some kind of auction or supply-and-demand system, that could be used by open-source software?
So your storage would be virtually guaranteed always-available in a fully decentralized cloud, but with a financial incentive for people to contribute their own storage and CPU?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#LibreOffice_Online
In 2020, it feels positively archaic for me to edit office documents except in my browser and saved in the cloud, accessible anywhere.
Of course there's a bit of an inherent tension since there's really no such thing as a standardized open-source cloud to save to... which is why LibreOffice Online is "provide-your-own-filesystem".
But putting all the craziest ideas together in one jumble... has anyone ever seriously proposed something like distributed hash table cloud storage, extremely redundant, that was perhaps financed by a blockchain cryptocurrency operating on some kind of auction or supply-and-demand system, that could be used by open-source software?
So your storage would be virtually guaranteed always-available in a fully decentralized cloud, but with a financial incentive for people to contribute their own storage and CPU?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#LibreOffice_Online
> In 2020, it feels positively archaic for me to edit office documents except in my browser and saved in the cloud, accessible anywhere.
Weirdly, I feel the opposite. Google Docs still feels clunky and second best, because the software is still second-fiddle to the browser. Two menu bars, some shortcuts not working (the clipboard permission snafu for example) and the strange heirarchy of cloud storage when I typically want to save locally.
Weirdly, I feel the opposite. Google Docs still feels clunky and second best, because the software is still second-fiddle to the browser. Two menu bars, some shortcuts not working (the clipboard permission snafu for example) and the strange heirarchy of cloud storage when I typically want to save locally.
Of course, if you want to save locally.
But I just can't imagine going back to a world where I can't pull up any doc on my phone, or on my laptop despite last having worked on it on my desktop. Or have my storage be limited by the (comparatively puny) size of my laptop's SSD.
Putting up with two menu bars is a small price to pay for that, in my world. :) And I've never run into any clipboard permissions problem in Docs, and I've always used Cmd+X/C/V.
But I just can't imagine going back to a world where I can't pull up any doc on my phone, or on my laptop despite last having worked on it on my desktop. Or have my storage be limited by the (comparatively puny) size of my laptop's SSD.
Putting up with two menu bars is a small price to pay for that, in my world. :) And I've never run into any clipboard permissions problem in Docs, and I've always used Cmd+X/C/V.
> In 2020, it feels positively archaic for me to edit office documents except in my browser and saved in the cloud, accessible anywhere.
I regularly have to export documents out of Google Docs and use an office suite like LibreOffice to format documents, let alone do anything vaguely complicated.
Google Docs is buggy and falls apart if you aren't doing something simple like writing a letter.
I regularly have to export documents out of Google Docs and use an office suite like LibreOffice to format documents, let alone do anything vaguely complicated.
Google Docs is buggy and falls apart if you aren't doing something simple like writing a letter.
Weird, I've never found Docs to be "buggy" at all.
I found it limited in formatting options 10 years ago... but these days it supports sections, columns, line spacing, paragraph borders and shading, a thousand open-source fonts, to the point where I haven't actually found it lacking in anything at all. E.g. you can lay out a newsletter no problem.
I mean obviously there are obscure things only Word can do... but these days Docs is pretty grown-up. The only time it "falls apart" is if you're working on a 150+ page document, but even there it's improved a lot (it used to slow down at ~30 pages).
But in any case, I was wondering about LibreOffice Online, not Google Docs — you know, specifically for people who want online editing that isn't Google.
I found it limited in formatting options 10 years ago... but these days it supports sections, columns, line spacing, paragraph borders and shading, a thousand open-source fonts, to the point where I haven't actually found it lacking in anything at all. E.g. you can lay out a newsletter no problem.
I mean obviously there are obscure things only Word can do... but these days Docs is pretty grown-up. The only time it "falls apart" is if you're working on a 150+ page document, but even there it's improved a lot (it used to slow down at ~30 pages).
But in any case, I was wondering about LibreOffice Online, not Google Docs — you know, specifically for people who want online editing that isn't Google.
> I mean obviously there are obscure things only Word can do... but these days Docs is pretty grown-up. The only time it "falls apart" is if you're working on a 150+ page document, but even there it's improved a lot (it used to slow down at ~30 pages).
I have a very simple resume that I wanted to align items on. I couldn't do that using Google Docs, but was able to do it in a minute with LibreOffice.
I have a very simple resume that I wanted to align items on. I couldn't do that using Google Docs, but was able to do it in a minute with LibreOffice.
My company is trying to switch to Google Docs, but it still has some pretty basic missing features that makes it quite difficult. For example it can't number headings and figures automatically, or do cross-referencing (saying "see section 1.2.3").
The difference between the real Excel and the web-based are staggering, really. As far as I can tell.
This is a big advantage of LibreOffice / Collabora Online: the engine driving desktop and online is the same, so any missing functional is purely down to UX.
The disadvantage is that the hundreds of LibreOffice desktop features are already too numerous for the full desktop UI, and have no place in a browser.
The disadvantage is that the hundreds of LibreOffice desktop features are already too numerous for the full desktop UI, and have no place in a browser.
> But putting all the craziest ideas together in one jumble... has anyone ever seriously proposed something like distributed hash table cloud storage, extremely redundant, that was perhaps financed by a blockchain cryptocurrency operating on some kind of auction or supply-and-demand system, that could be used by open-source software?
Sounds similar to IPFS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System
Sounds similar to IPFS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System
Yes, that's the closest I'm aware of.
But IPFS seems more designed for public sharing as opposed to private storage, and most notably only for popular content. Much like torrents, content disappears in IPFS if nobody's using it.
This is why I think the concept of paying others for guaranteed storage is the necessary second half. Not paying people individually, but that I'd simply be receiving some payment ~monthly for making available say 100 GB of space on my SSD, and the protocol would immediately redundantly copy content from other nodes to yet one more node the moment I go offline.
But IPFS seems more designed for public sharing as opposed to private storage, and most notably only for popular content. Much like torrents, content disappears in IPFS if nobody's using it.
This is why I think the concept of paying others for guaranteed storage is the necessary second half. Not paying people individually, but that I'd simply be receiving some payment ~monthly for making available say 100 GB of space on my SSD, and the protocol would immediately redundantly copy content from other nodes to yet one more node the moment I go offline.
Paying others to seed is where FileCoin comes in. And if you want private, you encrypt the file. There's no other way it you want other people to host it.
I've tried it in the NextCloud and it's pretty usable. Of course formatting can be off if you need some advanced staff, but for basic formatting it's a pretty good alternative for Google Docs. As a 2 years Linux user in a past it's much better than LibreOffice was 5 years ago, at least I can confirm it's usable.
In 2020, I feel writing linear text for other than niche purposes is archaic. Conveying information that way is quite slow and doesn't really scale, that might be also one of the reasons, why we haven't really much progress in efficiency in information transfer since about the late 90s. The other aspects like collaboration and not having to care about access from multiple devices or backups is just another component and I would say rather a detail in the big picture.
Disclaimer, I work for OrgPad.com where we are thinking (and doing something) exactly about the problem of linear text/ media and better approaches and tooling for work and sharing of information in general.
Disclaimer, I work for OrgPad.com where we are thinking (and doing something) exactly about the problem of linear text/ media and better approaches and tooling for work and sharing of information in general.
Quite the opposite - it's archaic to use thin clients.
Does anyone know if the issue with copy paste is finally resolved? I’ve never been able to paste things reliably from other applications in LibreOffice (Calc is what I’ve used most). For several years, LibreOffice has not recognized the OS clipboard (on Windows and Mac), and has had copy paste broken. I recall this was a long standing open bug, but I can’t find the reference or link for it.
I've not has this kind of problem, I think. What are you trying to paste?
Physics-based animations, not bad! I wonder how they look with shapes built using the 3D modeling tools.
Do they have outline mode yet? Been asking 15-20 years now. :D
I have used Sun StarOffice, OpenOffice and LibreOffice.
What they have in common is a bad, unappealing UI that looks like developer art. The features you need are there, but you have to fight the UI to get to them.
Poor choice of fonts, small margins + large text that make things look crowded, poor choice of color pallette, low contrast between text and background making it hard to read, ugly icons... and I could just go on and on.
What the Document Foundation needs to emphasize right now is finding UI/UX designers and graphical designers that establish guidelines for the UI on their projects.
I wanted to like LibreOffice, but after years of trying, I honestly can't use it anymore. I use SoftMaker FreeOffice now. I understand it's not open source, but it's quality software I can use on Linux.
What they have in common is a bad, unappealing UI that looks like developer art. The features you need are there, but you have to fight the UI to get to them.
Poor choice of fonts, small margins + large text that make things look crowded, poor choice of color pallette, low contrast between text and background making it hard to read, ugly icons... and I could just go on and on.
What the Document Foundation needs to emphasize right now is finding UI/UX designers and graphical designers that establish guidelines for the UI on their projects.
I wanted to like LibreOffice, but after years of trying, I honestly can't use it anymore. I use SoftMaker FreeOffice now. I understand it's not open source, but it's quality software I can use on Linux.
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LO has a nice ability to save documents in an all-ASCII, line-oriented encoding. These would almost be perfect to commit to a Git repository, as small changes to the document result in small changes to the output.
With one exception: Each line of the output starts with what amounts to a random number, unrelated to the number on the corresponding line of input. That makes the ASCII output mode practically useless for change tracking.
Various clunky and impractical workarounds are published. The bug report requesting stable ASCII output is over a decade old and mentions SVN instead of Git.